:00:37. > :00:40.Morning, folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:42.We finally know what David Cameron wants
:00:43. > :00:45.as he attempts to reform our relationship with the EU.
:00:46. > :00:49.Does it deliver on his promises - and will it be enough to convince
:00:50. > :00:55.and most of us can't name our MEP.
:00:56. > :00:58.Is there a democratic crisis in the EU?
:00:59. > :01:02.Former Respect MP George Galloway and Labour's Stephen Kinnock go
:01:03. > :01:08.Jeremy Corbyn has plenty of new grassroots support.
:01:09. > :01:12.But is Labour facing a cash crisis thanks to a loss of money from big
:01:13. > :01:14.donors, taxpayers and Government plans to restrict union funding?
:01:15. > :01:17.It is an affront on British democracy.
:01:18. > :01:27.And coming up here... agreement which changed the funding
:01:28. > :01:30.Mike Nesbitt and Colum Eastwood on dealing with the past.
:01:31. > :01:33.And we look at the state of the parties at the end of week
:01:34. > :01:35.one in the Republic's general election campaign.
:01:36. > :01:44.about his priorities these last two years?
:01:45. > :01:47.And joining me as always, three journalists who've got more
:01:48. > :01:50.opinions than the campaign to leave the EU has splinter groups.
:01:51. > :01:53.Yes, it's Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.
:01:54. > :01:57.We'll see if they're still on speaking terms by the end
:01:58. > :02:04.Let's start today by talking about what the Government in England
:02:05. > :02:06.is or isn't going to do about a sugar tax.
:02:07. > :02:08.Health experts have been calling for one, to tackle
:02:09. > :02:12.is a crisis in child obesity - but so far ministers
:02:13. > :02:16.Well, this morning the celebrity chef Jamie Oliver said
:02:17. > :02:19.to "get ninja" to force the Government to act.
:02:20. > :02:21.Here's the Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, responding
:02:22. > :02:24.on The Andrew Marr Show this morning.
:02:25. > :02:34.It has to be a game changing moment, a robust strategy.
:02:35. > :02:40.The issue here is, do what it takes to make sure
:02:41. > :02:42.that children consume less sugar, because we have got
:02:43. > :02:48.We are the most obese nation in the EU
:02:49. > :02:53.Well, we are going to be announcing in due course -
:02:54. > :02:57.David Cameron has said, if it isn't a sugar tax,
:02:58. > :02:59.it needs to be something that is equally robust.
:03:00. > :03:01.But he hasn't taken a sugar tax off the table.
:03:02. > :03:08.Will there be a sugar tax? His instinct is to say no, I do not want
:03:09. > :03:14.to run the nanny state that Jeremy Hunt says his one-year-old daughter,
:03:15. > :03:19.by the time she is an adult, one third of the population will be
:03:20. > :03:23.clinically obese and Public Health England shows if you introduce a
:03:24. > :03:28.sugar tax, you will reduce that some Jeremy Hunt is in favour but the
:03:29. > :03:33.Prime Minister is inching towards some decision, whether that is a
:03:34. > :03:45.sugar tax or not... Regional and devolved governments, Wales has been
:03:46. > :03:49.very keen on that. I feel I am at liberty to say this but Scotland
:03:50. > :03:56.also has greater tax-raising powers so he could get outflanked. Or wait
:03:57. > :04:03.and see how it does in Scotland and Wales and then decide to follow?
:04:04. > :04:09.Yes. I want to make the liberal case against this but that ship has
:04:10. > :04:18.sailed decades ago, we tax alcohol and tobacco and this is more like a
:04:19. > :04:24.revenue raiser because that isn't -- a justifiable cause, we have a
:04:25. > :04:30.population with a sweet tooth that you can hit the revenue. That is the
:04:31. > :04:36.reasoning to deal with rather than the more censorious reason of
:04:37. > :04:39.monitoring behaviour. And junior doctors, scheduled to be back on
:04:40. > :04:47.strike on Wednesday in England, which means that some of the talks
:04:48. > :04:51.so far have failed? There is bad feeling but as Andrew Marr was
:04:52. > :04:57.saying, the turnout on the vote was very high, and the 8%. The
:04:58. > :05:02.government is really struggling to shake this debate and it is
:05:03. > :05:06.interesting with that interview, Jeremy Hunt has said until now that
:05:07. > :05:11.the cost of the new contract would be revenue neutral, he now admits
:05:12. > :05:14.there would not only be a transitional cost but longer term
:05:15. > :05:19.and the government is really struggling on this. It is not affect
:05:20. > :05:23.emergency services this time. It was a big week for
:05:24. > :05:25.David Cameron's renegotiation He once promised a fundamental
:05:26. > :05:29.change in that relationship as a condition for backing
:05:30. > :05:32.the campaign to stay in. Well, there are changes -
:05:33. > :05:36.but perhaps not quite as fundamental And what he has achieved still needs
:05:37. > :05:41.to be agreed by EU leaders at a summit in a fortnight's
:05:42. > :05:43.time, where it could be But Mr Cameron says what he's
:05:44. > :05:50.achieved is so significant that if Britain was not an EU member,
:05:51. > :05:53.this would make him want to join. Here he is speaking
:05:54. > :05:58.earlier in the week. I can say, hand on heart,
:05:59. > :06:01.I've delivered the commitments that I made in my manifesto,
:06:02. > :06:04.and I think the whole country knows that if you, for instance,
:06:05. > :06:06.pay people ?5,000, ?10,000 additional to their wages,
:06:07. > :06:09.then that is a draw to Britain, and that's one of
:06:10. > :06:11.the reasons why we've seen such high levels
:06:12. > :06:15.of migration and movement. So David Cameron says it lives up
:06:16. > :06:17.to everything that was promised in the Conservative
:06:18. > :06:19.election manifesto. I'm joined by former Cabinet
:06:20. > :06:30.minister Eric Pickles. Welcome back. You said this week the
:06:31. > :06:33.Prime Minister has kept to the letter and spirit of his manifesto
:06:34. > :06:39.promise. Let us look at what this promise. The manifesto said we will
:06:40. > :06:46.insist that EU migrants who want to claim tax credits and child benefit
:06:47. > :06:51.must live here and contribute to the economy for a minimum of four years.
:06:52. > :06:59.The emergency rig on tax credits does not achieve that? -- brake. You
:07:00. > :07:04.must bear in mind the things we can do through domestic law, a
:07:05. > :07:09.job-seeker from Europe who cannot find a job within six months, you
:07:10. > :07:19.are obliged to leave and that has been achieved through domestic law.
:07:20. > :07:26.The manifesto promised no in work benefits until you have been here
:07:27. > :07:30.for four years. The reality is graduated, they rise, and after four
:07:31. > :07:38.years you get the full benefit? That is not unreasonable. After four
:07:39. > :07:41.years to get full benefit but we know that the criteria for putting
:07:42. > :07:47.on the brake for four years has already been passed and the largest
:07:48. > :07:51.political party in the EU agrees that has happened and we should have
:07:52. > :07:56.this in place after the next referendum. It will have to be
:07:57. > :08:03.approved by the European Parliament and the other 27 members and what
:08:04. > :08:11.constitution, emergency, the cost to migrants is five billion pounds
:08:12. > :08:16.every year, we are 1.6 5 trillion economy, public spending is 750
:08:17. > :08:26.billion pounds. Why is ?500 million and emergency, only 1.6% of the
:08:27. > :08:31.bill? My earlier answer was, we already know the political leader of
:08:32. > :08:38.the largest political party in the Parliament of Europe has said it is
:08:39. > :08:44.the fact that we have arrived at those conditions and an emergency
:08:45. > :08:50.brake will be placed. What emergency? It is an emergency in the
:08:51. > :08:58.views of the European partners, they have accrued -- agreed to this
:08:59. > :09:01.emergency brake but in terms have the mechanism of Britain future for
:09:02. > :09:07.other countries, that will be decided over the next two weeks but
:09:08. > :09:14.what we do know as far as the UK is concerned, we will get that
:09:15. > :09:21.emergency brake. If a migrant Eilidh Child lives abroad, they should
:09:22. > :09:24.receive no child tax credit or benefit, no matter how long they
:09:25. > :09:31.have worked in the UK or how much tax they have paid. There it is. The
:09:32. > :09:36.sentiment does not deliver on that either? What it does deliver is
:09:37. > :09:41.harmonisation of benefits so the level of benefits will be exactly
:09:42. > :09:50.the same as it would be in their own country. You are going to have 28
:09:51. > :09:55.different levels of child benefit! In many cases it can be as much as
:09:56. > :10:01.the quarter. And in some cases, more? Not many people to pay the
:10:02. > :10:08.same level that we don't but the point I was making is that in Poland
:10:09. > :10:14.it is a quarter of the level as it is here. You promised no child
:10:15. > :10:21.benefit for migrants and you're delivering index linked child
:10:22. > :10:25.benefit for migrants? It is a big improvement on the current
:10:26. > :10:30.situation. When you go into negotiation, but do precisely that
:10:31. > :10:36.and I think it is within the spirit of what we said. The manifesto said
:10:37. > :10:42.that you will control migration from the European Union by reforming
:10:43. > :10:48.welfare rolls and Mr Cameron at one stage said that reducing immigration
:10:49. > :10:53.from the European Union would be at the heart of this. Can you give us
:10:54. > :10:59.an idea of how much these changes will reduce European Union
:11:00. > :11:03.migration? I am not part of the negotiating team so all I can go
:11:04. > :11:10.wrong is what I have seen in newspapers and given that we know
:11:11. > :11:15.that in work benefits, 40% of new arrivals are supported by that and
:11:16. > :11:22.given that the average is ?6,000 in addition and can be as much as
:11:23. > :11:26.?10,000, it will have an effect. You said 40% but that is not the figure,
:11:27. > :11:31.we know from the Freedom of Information release that if there
:11:32. > :11:36.had been any emergency brake in the last four years it would have
:11:37. > :11:43.affected 84,000 families. That is it, not 40%. I said that 40% of the
:11:44. > :11:49.new immigrants that, in, new migrants, claiming in work benefit,
:11:50. > :11:59.you are comparing apples and pears? I am not. 80,000 families is nowhere
:12:00. > :12:06.near 40%. Last year, 180,000 net migration from the EU. Do you have
:12:07. > :12:11.any idea by how much the figure will be reduced as a result of the
:12:12. > :12:16.settlement? Were not trying to prevent people living inside the
:12:17. > :12:22.European Union, we are trying to stop people coming for something for
:12:23. > :12:26.nothing, to claim from our innovative system and secondly, to
:12:27. > :12:31.ensure there is an equalisation inside the market of people coming
:12:32. > :12:37.here just because of our in work benefits. Since this will apply only
:12:38. > :12:42.to new migrants and not those that are already here, is unlikely to be
:12:43. > :12:48.a rush to come in before these restrictions in? And the figure
:12:49. > :12:55.could rise? As part of the negotiations we have to ensure that
:12:56. > :13:00.doesn't happen. We would have two ask as part of the negotiation... To
:13:01. > :13:07.ensure that there isn't this new influx. In the manifesto you also
:13:08. > :13:13.said that we want national partners to be able to work together to block
:13:14. > :13:18.unwanted European legislation. In the Lisbon Treaty there is an orange
:13:19. > :13:25.card system that does that and we have the red card with Mr Cameron,
:13:26. > :13:29.is this an improvement? The Orange card has been used twice. That was
:13:30. > :13:37.yellow, orange has never been used. I beg your pardon. It is confusing!
:13:38. > :13:46.How many different cards? Three, yellow and orange and this red card.
:13:47. > :13:52.In what way would the red card be any improvement on the existing
:13:53. > :13:57.Orange card, which means 51% of national parliaments can make the
:13:58. > :14:03.commission rethink? We can move much quicker in terms of trying to knock
:14:04. > :14:08.out any deal between European Parliaments and secondly, national
:14:09. > :14:15.parliaments are becoming much more assertive in terms of their session
:14:16. > :14:20.and that is a massively important step in the re-establishment in the
:14:21. > :14:24.importance of national parliaments. It is not just our Parliament, we
:14:25. > :14:30.would need to get 56% of national parliaments, at least 15 others, and
:14:31. > :14:35.in many cases we would only have 12 weeks to ask them to vote against
:14:36. > :14:42.the policy of their own national government. That is not credible? Of
:14:43. > :14:46.course it is. I think this is a very important step on the way of
:14:47. > :14:52.ensuring national parliaments are much more assertive and don't
:14:53. > :14:55.forget, read this in line of stopping them moving towards ever
:14:56. > :15:02.closer union and protecting sterling. Let us look at that. It
:15:03. > :15:06.was meant to be one of the big wins for the Prime Minister, Donald Tusk,
:15:07. > :15:13.the President of the Council, says we have always had that, it need not
:15:14. > :15:14.mean integration for Britain, the settlement confirms only the status
:15:15. > :15:21.quo. It is very interesting for him to
:15:22. > :15:26.say that but on every programme that I've ever been on, it has been this
:15:27. > :15:30.drift towards ever closer union, political union, that has been
:15:31. > :15:33.important. If it means we have now re-established that it is about give
:15:34. > :15:43.and take and cooperation, that is a great thing. Given how little the
:15:44. > :15:47.prime and this has achieved -- the Prime Minister has achieved, would
:15:48. > :15:50.his position not be undermined, or become untenable, if this draft
:15:51. > :15:56.settlement was further undermined before being finally agreed? I'm
:15:57. > :15:59.very confident, given that this Prime Minister is the only Prime
:16:00. > :16:03.Minister ever to take powers back from Europe, that it will be
:16:04. > :16:08.successful. But could you stomach of further watering down? It would
:16:09. > :16:13.depend what the overall position is but my position comes not from any
:16:14. > :16:18.enthusiasm for Europe. It's just a lack of any decent ideas that we
:16:19. > :16:21.would be better off outside. To come back to this business of the
:16:22. > :16:24.European Parliament, there are number of areas in which the
:16:25. > :16:29.European Parliament has to approve this settlement, including the work
:16:30. > :16:34.benefits, child benefit element, perhaps even the red card. What
:16:35. > :16:38.guarantees can you give, because the European Parliament won't to do
:16:39. > :16:43.this, if it does it at all, until after the referendum... So how can
:16:44. > :16:47.you guarantee that we will vote to stay in and the European Parliament
:16:48. > :16:49.will not pass the legislation? We've had indications from the European
:16:50. > :16:56.Parliament that they will do precisely that. What I would hope...
:16:57. > :17:02.Where? Just a second. The leader of the largest party has said that. I
:17:03. > :17:08.think what we would want to see over the next couple of weeks are more
:17:09. > :17:14.codification in terms of how this would come to operate, not just for
:17:15. > :17:17.us but for other parties. But if the European Parliament doesn't pass
:17:18. > :17:22.this, it is not legally binding. The Prime Minister has told us that. It
:17:23. > :17:24.can only be eagerly binding under the existing treaties with
:17:25. > :17:29.legislation through the European Parliament. You are asking the
:17:30. > :17:32.British people to vote blind, to vote yes, without really knowing
:17:33. > :17:38.what the European Parliament might do down the road in the autumn at
:17:39. > :17:44.the end of the year. I'm very confident that will be the case. --
:17:45. > :17:49.won't be the case. It will be an appalling abuse of trust and would
:17:50. > :17:54.undermine the European Union, were it not to do so. But sooner or
:17:55. > :17:56.later, we are going to have to go on to discuss, what would the
:17:57. > :18:00.consequences be thus leaving? Because that would not be a
:18:01. > :18:05.pain-free experience. I really want the guarantees for those that want
:18:06. > :18:08.us to leave to say that my constituents and my constituents'
:18:09. > :18:13.children will be materially better off by leaving. Not just the same
:18:14. > :18:14.but better off by leaving. Eric Pickles, thanks for being with us
:18:15. > :18:17.this morning. Thank you. In recent weeks we've been debating
:18:18. > :18:21.some of the big issues at the heart We've covered immigration
:18:22. > :18:23.and the economy. Today we're going to look
:18:24. > :18:25.at Britain's sovereignty within the European Union and ask,
:18:26. > :18:28.is the EU a democratic club There are about 500 million people
:18:29. > :18:32.across the 28 member states Voters from these countries go
:18:33. > :18:35.to the polls every five years to elect 751 members
:18:36. > :18:38.of the European Parliament. The UK currently has
:18:39. > :18:42.73 MEPs, who have some say over the EU budget
:18:43. > :18:46.and new legislation. But it's the unelected Commission,
:18:47. > :18:48.led by President Jean-Claude Juncker, that is responsible
:18:49. > :18:52.for day-to-day management, plus proposing and
:18:53. > :18:56.implementing new laws. Later this month, David Cameron
:18:57. > :18:59.will attend a crucial meeting of the European Council
:19:00. > :19:02.to press for his draft settlement, the outcome of his
:19:03. > :19:06.efforts to renegotiate our terms The Council is made up of the 28
:19:07. > :19:13.heads of state or government of EU members and decides
:19:14. > :19:16.the Union's overall political But it's not to be confused with
:19:17. > :19:21.the Council of the European Union, where ministers from each
:19:22. > :19:25.country meet to discuss, There's always been
:19:26. > :19:29.concern about a so-called democratic deficit and at the last
:19:30. > :19:33.elections in 2014, turnout In the UK, where few people can
:19:34. > :19:40.even name a local MEP, I'm joined now by former Respect
:19:41. > :19:50.MP George Galloway - he's said this week he'll campaign
:19:51. > :19:53.for Britain to leave the EU - and by the Labour MP
:19:54. > :20:02.Stephen Kinnock, who wants Stephen Kinnock, let me come to you
:20:03. > :20:08.first. Turnout at the last election was under 36%. Only 11% can name
:20:09. > :20:12.their MEP. Richie Gray the EU has a massive democratic deficit and the
:20:13. > :20:16.Cameron settlement does nothing to address it, does it? On the
:20:17. > :20:21.democratic deficit, of course it would be good if more people voted
:20:22. > :20:24.in democratic elections but let's not forget there is another
:20:25. > :20:26.democratically elected institution in Brussels and that's the council
:20:27. > :20:31.of the vistas and the European council. They are ministers. Our
:20:32. > :20:34.Prime Minister, directly elected by the British people, going to
:20:35. > :20:38.Brussels to exert influence for Britain. The democratic deficit
:20:39. > :20:42.sometimes gets tied up with the European Parliament. That's an
:20:43. > :20:46.element of it but the council is a major part. On the renegotiation, I
:20:47. > :20:50.think the really important point is that this referendum is not about
:20:51. > :20:55.David Cameron's renegotiation. This referendum is about the future of
:20:56. > :21:00.the United Kingdom as a trading nation, as a proud nation in terms
:21:01. > :21:03.of a diplomatic big player and where we are actually going in terms of
:21:04. > :21:09.the long-term future of the country. It's not about the precise details
:21:10. > :21:13.of David Cameron's renegotiation. Mr Cameron think that is important.
:21:14. > :21:17.George Galloway, you said you believe in a union of the peoples of
:21:18. > :21:21.Europe but surely the only realistic way to achieve that is to work for a
:21:22. > :21:32.reformed EU. Anything else is just rhetoric. No, because I think it is
:21:33. > :21:35.in the Brits of the EU. You pointed to the visibility of the European
:21:36. > :21:39.Parliament, its credibility and standing but you didn't add that the
:21:40. > :21:41.European Parliament itself, even if AT the centre people were turning
:21:42. > :21:47.out to vote for it, has almost no power. The power lies in this
:21:48. > :21:52.council of ministers and in a bureaucracy well entrenched, very
:21:53. > :21:57.lavishly funded, which has meant of its own. I could answer your
:21:58. > :22:05.question in two words - Catherine Ashton. Never heard of her? No. Ever
:22:06. > :22:08.elected to? No. She was the European Foreign Minister, dictating to other
:22:09. > :22:14.countries outside the world with no democratic mandate of any kind. I
:22:15. > :22:18.think we have to be more sensible about the way we talk about these
:22:19. > :22:21.things. There is a process of co-decision which is enshrined in
:22:22. > :22:25.the treaties of the European Union. The vast majority of the legislation
:22:26. > :22:29.which goes through has to be agreed by both the European Parliament and
:22:30. > :22:32.by the European council on the basis of proposals from the European
:22:33. > :22:39.Commission. Not necessarily all the council. Politics is the art of the
:22:40. > :22:42.possible and when you are part of a system of pooled sovereignty is,
:22:43. > :22:45.when we come together as nation states because we believe our
:22:46. > :22:50.sovereignty is actually strengthened through cooperation, of course you
:22:51. > :22:54.have to make compromises. You don't win absolutely 100% of everything
:22:55. > :22:56.that you go for but actually, I believe that through corporation and
:22:57. > :23:01.pulling our sovereignty our sovereignty is strengthened. There
:23:02. > :23:04.has been a lot of talk by the Prime Minister about asserting the
:23:05. > :23:08.sovereignty of Parliament. It seems to be one of the carrots to attract
:23:09. > :23:13.Mr Boris Johnson to come onside. But surely you have to accept that in
:23:14. > :23:16.many areas, the EU and the European Court of Justice, they are sovereign
:23:17. > :23:21.and Parliament has to recognise that sovereignty or we have to leave. I
:23:22. > :23:26.think that we have to also look at the likes of Google or the big
:23:27. > :23:30.multinational companies. They don't recognise the concept of
:23:31. > :23:35.sovereignty. For people on the left, such as George and myself, the key
:23:36. > :23:39.point of the European Union is, it's a transnational body that regulating
:23:40. > :23:43.transnational business. Not very well. It is not regulating them very
:23:44. > :23:49.well. Much better than we could do them alone. I don't think so. The
:23:50. > :23:55.bottom line is... And this is to be, on the left. Mr Kinnock senior and I
:23:56. > :24:00.shared many platforms on this, as well as the late Mr Benn, the late
:24:01. > :24:07.Mr foot. This was commonplace on the left. We don't want to be dictated
:24:08. > :24:12.to by other countries. We want our people to choose our government and
:24:13. > :24:16.thus our direction. And I'd rather take my chance with changing things
:24:17. > :24:23.in Britain than waiting for a change in Bulgaria or in Poland. But you
:24:24. > :24:28.are nationalists and doesn't but inevitably involve some kind of
:24:29. > :24:33.pooling sovereignty? The whole basis of the European Union... As we
:24:34. > :24:37.always said from 1975 onwards, on the left, the European Community,
:24:38. > :24:42.now the EU, is actually built on neoliberal economic principles,
:24:43. > :24:49.which are ironclad and unchangeable. However people want to vote. Are you
:24:50. > :24:52.comfortable with the manner in which Greece's sovereignty was overturned
:24:53. > :24:58.by the European institutions and above all by companies -- countries
:24:59. > :25:02.like Germany? We live in a highly globalised, interdependent world and
:25:03. > :25:05.the idea that the UK alone can exert influence and regulate the big
:25:06. > :25:09.multinationals on its own is absurd. The other key point on Greece is,
:25:10. > :25:13.how would we help the people of Greece by leaving the EU? Our
:25:14. > :25:18.principles are about solidarity, a key value on which European Union is
:25:19. > :25:22.founded, which is a value of the left. What was the solidarity that
:25:23. > :25:26.the EU showed Greece? I think what we need is a Labour Prime Minister
:25:27. > :25:32.in Brussels arguing against the politics of austerity. We are not
:25:33. > :25:40.part of the eurozone. This was a eurozone argument. We can still
:25:41. > :25:43.exert our influence. What many would think is your natural allies on the
:25:44. > :25:48.European left, so reads the increase, and a party in Spain, want
:25:49. > :25:53.to stay in the EU. Why are you right and your comrades wrong? The people
:25:54. > :25:58.of Greece were crushed underfoot by this neoliberal consensus on which
:25:59. > :26:04.the EU and administrations are built. Portugal actually had an
:26:05. > :26:09.election and elected a majority of left-wing MPs and we're told by the
:26:10. > :26:12.European Union, the president of Portugal was told, you mustn't
:26:13. > :26:16.summon these people to your palace to allow them to form a government.
:26:17. > :26:20.This is unconscionable. It's not because I love the people of Greece,
:26:21. > :26:25.though I do, or the people of Spain. I don't want us to face the same
:26:26. > :26:29.fate as them. Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonell's economic policies, which
:26:30. > :26:35.I believe in and which are badly needed, are illegal under the EU. If
:26:36. > :26:38.we were to save our steel industry, for example, we would be acting out
:26:39. > :26:42.with the European Union's legal framework. You've been closely
:26:43. > :26:48.involved in the steel industry. What do you say to that? I fail to see
:26:49. > :26:51.how our principles of solidarity and reaching out to our brothers and
:26:52. > :26:54.sisters in other parts of the year are helped by the idea that we
:26:55. > :26:57.suddenly leave. But to me seems to be going against the founding value
:26:58. > :27:02.of the Labour Party, which is solidarity. On steel, this is a
:27:03. > :27:05.classic example but it is up to your member state government to play the
:27:06. > :27:09.game properly. Unfortunately, we have a government that has been
:27:10. > :27:12.asleep at the wheel on steel for four or five years. An energy
:27:13. > :27:15.compensation package should have been put in place years ago. The
:27:16. > :27:20.government has done nothing about it. The massive flooding of Chinese
:27:21. > :27:23.steel into the British market has only been happening over the last
:27:24. > :27:28.four years. That could only be done by Europe, not Britain. It took them
:27:29. > :27:30.for years to get the stated clearance because nobody was
:27:31. > :27:34.knocking on the door properly in Brussels and because we are cosying
:27:35. > :27:39.up to Beijing. Cameron and Osborne seem to be putting the interests of
:27:40. > :27:42.our relationship with China ahead of British industry. We are allowing
:27:43. > :27:47.them to damp massive amounts of Chinese steel in the market. The
:27:48. > :27:49.European Court of Justice is preventing us from deporting
:27:50. > :27:54.Moroccan citizen, the daughter-in-law of Abu Hamza, Abu
:27:55. > :27:59.Hamza himself convicted of 11 terrorist offences. She has done
:28:00. > :28:02.time, too, for a terrorist elated offence. We still can't deport her.
:28:03. > :28:07.That is a pretty serious intrusion of our sovereignty. I don't know the
:28:08. > :28:10.details of that case but I do know we live in a very interdependent
:28:11. > :28:13.world... You said that. What people want to know is if we can deport
:28:14. > :28:18.foreign citizens who have terrorist criminal convictions. We did manage
:28:19. > :28:23.to do it with Abu Hamza, so there are ways. The EU is a rules -based
:28:24. > :28:28.organisation. It sets the rules of the game. It's up to the member
:28:29. > :28:31.states to play that game properly. Unfortunately, we have a government
:28:32. > :28:34.that has failed to build alliances and coalitions in Brussels. That's
:28:35. > :28:39.one of the reasons we have a difficult relationship with the EU
:28:40. > :28:43.now. When you look at this leave site and the various factions of the
:28:44. > :28:50.time they seem to be spending more time knocking lumps out of each
:28:51. > :28:53.other, does that make you happy you joined? I campaigned against
:28:54. > :28:56.breaking up Britain and for a no vote in the Scottish referendum.
:28:57. > :29:01.That didn't mean I was with the Tories, didn't mean I was with the
:29:02. > :29:09.Orange order. So are you solo again? There used to be a commonplace view
:29:10. > :29:13.from the 1970s, and still standing now, for a democratic future for
:29:14. > :29:17.Britain. We decide how many immigrants we have, who we deport,
:29:18. > :29:20.what our levels of taxation are and what our foreign policy should be.
:29:21. > :29:23.We will leave it there. Thank you both.
:29:24. > :29:25.Labour says it faces losing more than a quarter of its funding,
:29:26. > :29:28.thanks to Government plans to change the way the party gets money
:29:29. > :29:31.from trade union members, along with moves to cut state
:29:32. > :29:34.In a rare TV outing, the party's general secretary
:29:35. > :29:37.Iain McNicol has told us just how damaging the changes could be.
:29:38. > :29:44.An audience of around 800 people turning out on a Thursday night
:29:45. > :29:47.in North London to watch well-known comedians,
:29:48. > :29:50.artistic and political types talk about, well,
:29:51. > :29:53.why Jeremy Corbyn ought to be Prime Minister.
:29:54. > :30:02.He wasn't here and this wasn't a fundraiser but similar nights
:30:03. > :30:05.to this have raised cash for the party.
:30:06. > :30:08.Welcome, one and all, you bunch of loony lefties.
:30:09. > :30:13.I started in my constituency in Brentford.
:30:14. > :30:18.And then other constituencies asked me to do the same thing
:30:19. > :30:54.and we've done 165 and raised ?100,000.
:30:55. > :30:56.And it's just as well, because the Labour Party
:30:57. > :30:59.says it could be about to lose about ?8 million of funding
:31:00. > :31:02.if Government plans to change the way it collects
:31:03. > :31:03.money from trade union members go through.
:31:04. > :31:05.And they say it's no laughing matter.
:31:06. > :31:06.It is an affront on British democracy.
:31:07. > :31:09.If you look at any previous agreement which changed
:31:10. > :31:12.the funding of a political party, it was done on a consensual,
:31:13. > :31:14.cross-party basis, an agreement, because of the effect it had.
:31:15. > :31:16.So is this an existential threat to the Labour Party?
:31:17. > :31:19.It would be very difficult for the party.
:31:20. > :31:25.funding would mean that we would not be able to operate in the current
:31:26. > :31:27.way that we do, holding the Government to account
:31:28. > :31:31.The cash goes towards staffing, reportedly around
:31:32. > :31:33.half its costs, and, of course, campaigning.
:31:34. > :31:37.Things like party election broadcasts, battle buses,
:31:38. > :31:40.At the moment, trade union members have to actively opt
:31:41. > :31:42.out of paying towards the Labour Party.
:31:43. > :31:46.In the future, they would have to opt in, in writing,
:31:47. > :31:48.within three months - something Labour fear
:31:49. > :31:50.people just won't get round to doing.
:31:51. > :31:56.It also coincides with a 19% cut to so-called short money,
:31:57. > :32:01.cash given to all opposition parties to
:32:02. > :32:04.help with the costs of Parliamentary business -
:32:05. > :32:05.a sort of concession for not having the civil service
:32:06. > :32:09.But the man who used to be in charge of said civil
:32:10. > :32:11.service says the Government's plans are at best partisan.
:32:12. > :32:17.It goes to this wider question of what I would see
:32:18. > :32:19.as a worryingly authoritarian streak in government that finds it
:32:20. > :32:21.difficult to live with and accept challenge.
:32:22. > :32:24.I think that's something that people of all parties...
:32:25. > :32:26.I'm actually a crossbencher, not in any
:32:27. > :32:28.party, and I think, whichever party are in,
:32:29. > :32:33.There's nothing authoritarian about having something
:32:34. > :32:38.clearly flagged in our manifesto, voted for in a majority government
:32:39. > :32:41.and delivered on, and there's nothing authoritarian about having
:32:42. > :32:47.That's to say, if you're a Labour Party supporter and you're
:32:48. > :32:50.a member of a trade union, you actively choose to do it,
:32:51. > :32:52.rather than having it forced upon you
:32:53. > :32:55.Frankly, I think the Labour Party needs to get
:32:56. > :32:58.out and convince union members it's a good use of their money to give
:32:59. > :33:01.that money to the Labour Party, just as the Conservatives
:33:02. > :33:03.and Liberal Democrats have to convince people to give
:33:04. > :33:14.We don't rely on people accidentally giving
:33:15. > :33:24.Back in Kentish Town, the organisers here say a night
:33:25. > :33:27.like this is as much about raising awareness and morale as it is cash.
:33:28. > :33:29.Jeremy Corbyn's leadership campaign relied on grassroots support.
:33:30. > :33:31.As the party's funding streams start to dry
:33:32. > :33:34.up, it it could well need to rely on people like this -
:33:35. > :33:36.people willing to come to a night about Jeremy Corbyn
:33:37. > :33:53.In fact, Mr Corbyn may prefer the thought of appealing
:33:54. > :33:56.to the wallets of people like this, rather than the traditional big
:33:57. > :33:58.donors, and number of whom have already publicly
:33:59. > :34:01.But fundraising made up just 3% of the
:34:02. > :34:05.The spotlight will now fall on how Labour pays its way in the future.
:34:06. > :34:08.And we now say goodbye to viewers in Scotland,
:34:09. > :34:10.who leave us for Sunday Politics Scotland.
:34:11. > :34:13.Now, this week in the House of Lords, Labour's peers
:34:14. > :34:15.will try to fight off the Government's plans to change
:34:16. > :34:17.the way union members give money to the party.
:34:18. > :34:20.The shadow leader in the Lords, Angela Smith, joins me now -
:34:21. > :34:23.and I should add we asked to speak to a Government minister
:34:24. > :34:28.For a change! Or not! If you join a trade union, why should part of the
:34:29. > :34:30.membership fee be given to the Labour Party without your explicit
:34:31. > :34:34.approval? It is a choice you can make and one of the things said
:34:35. > :34:39.during the House of Lords debate is a Conservative peer said, when was
:34:40. > :34:44.the evidence that people are forced to opt in? One of the key things is
:34:45. > :34:50.the government says you must opt in rather than quite but when they gave
:34:51. > :34:54.businesses two years to bring in the plastic bag levy, they gave trade
:34:55. > :34:59.unions three months to change them into our system. In three years
:35:00. > :35:09.would you change your mind? Well, no. It's not really a matter of
:35:10. > :35:14.time, then? Within three months in writing, the government is making
:35:15. > :35:18.this as difficult as possible. When this was looked at, it was amenable
:35:19. > :35:23.of a number of -- context of a number of aspects and they are not
:35:24. > :35:28.giving any other changes on those affecting themselves, only the
:35:29. > :35:34.Labour Party. Many members do not vote Labour, why should they have to
:35:35. > :35:38.opt out? Surely those who want to join Labour should have to opt in?
:35:39. > :35:45.There does not seem to be any problem with people being asked to
:35:46. > :35:49.opt out. Look at this in the context of funding for all parties, the
:35:50. > :35:53.government have picked one recommendation from the committee of
:35:54. > :35:56.standards in public life, the one that reflects the Labour Party adds
:35:57. > :36:01.nothing to look at Conservative Party funding, blatantly partisan
:36:02. > :36:09.and unfair. But is it wrong within its own right? Labour depends on
:36:10. > :36:16.inertia, people pay the levy but they don't want to and they do not
:36:17. > :36:20.know about opting out? Isn't it time we stopped tracking nonlabour
:36:21. > :36:28.voters? Nobody is tracking anybody, that is grossly misrepresenting. In
:36:29. > :36:36.the context of all of these public life issues, you can do it but they
:36:37. > :36:41.say themselves, tracking, the Conservatives talk about the burden
:36:42. > :36:45.on trade unions, this is unfair. It will ensure that in that short space
:36:46. > :36:50.of time they will not be able to reach everybody. You said that even
:36:51. > :36:57.in two years you would still be against it. That is not exactly what
:36:58. > :37:00.I said, over a longer period of time, in the context of all the
:37:01. > :37:05.other measures that have been addressed on party funding, what is
:37:06. > :37:09.unfair is this is one measure affecting one party. You understand
:37:10. > :37:19.the government is picking on you. Not just me! In the United States,
:37:20. > :37:25.Bernie Sanders, on the left of the party, he has no union backing or
:37:26. > :37:29.big donors or business backing. He managed to get, not even running
:37:30. > :37:38.nationwide, over 3 million individual donations. He raised $20
:37:39. > :37:41.million in January. Jeremy Corbyn is striking a chord with people who
:37:42. > :37:48.have never been involved before. Why not raise more money from ordinary
:37:49. > :37:51.sympathisers. Do not think for one moment that trade unionists who
:37:52. > :37:57.could opt in are not ordinary Labour Party, many of them are and over
:37:58. > :38:02.longer period you would not see the drop off the Conservative Party is
:38:03. > :38:07.hoping for. $20 million in one month. That is amazing and I would
:38:08. > :38:12.like to change how we can fund political parties and that is what
:38:13. > :38:17.the committee looked at, reducing the cap on donations, reducing the
:38:18. > :38:25.spending limits and it did look at -- look at trade unionists funding.
:38:26. > :38:32.How much do you raise from individual members? About two thirds
:38:33. > :38:41.of funding. Excluding a good donors? I could not give you that figure.
:38:42. > :38:46.Isn't that the way the Labour should reduce its dependence on the unions,
:38:47. > :38:50.?8 million from the unions at the moment, and many people in the party
:38:51. > :38:56.used to think that kind of funding was a disadvantage for the party
:38:57. > :39:02.because you are more than unions. Would that not be one way of getting
:39:03. > :39:06.small, individual donations to bring in a lot of money and show that you
:39:07. > :39:11.are not in the pocket of anybody? Over the course of Parliament it is
:39:12. > :39:14.about ?8 million every year that is just one third of the money that we
:39:15. > :39:21.get from all areas, donations from members also. What I am looking at
:39:22. > :39:26.is the Conservative Party that so dislikes the unions, it wants to cut
:39:27. > :39:31.their funding to not just us but in the work they do. If they want to do
:39:32. > :39:35.that, look at parting funding overall but it is ill-conceived to
:39:36. > :39:40.just look at modelling the opposition. I take your point that
:39:41. > :39:48.they are not stopping big donors from giving themselves money but
:39:49. > :39:51.have you not become more dependent on the unions? At one stage we
:39:52. > :39:57.thought you were becoming less so but more than ever, and the leader
:39:58. > :40:02.seems to make that dependency even greater? According to a recent
:40:03. > :40:09.report, Jeremy Corbyn treats big Labour donors with disdain and has
:40:10. > :40:14.abandoned fundraising. We look at all members and supporters for
:40:15. > :40:17.donations but I will not apologise for our relationship with trade
:40:18. > :40:24.unions, we grew out of them and we work together on issues. What I am
:40:25. > :40:28.asking is, are you not becoming overly dependent on them? And
:40:29. > :40:31.becoming vulnerable to this time of action from a Conservative
:40:32. > :40:39.government? Our donations continue to increase, I cannot give you
:40:40. > :40:44.figures, I do not do those sums. I cannot remember them. I haven't got
:40:45. > :40:52.a photographic memory! I know the problem! Are you going to block this
:40:53. > :40:57.in the House of Lords? You may not like this but it was in the Tory
:40:58. > :41:02.manifesto? This came from cross-party, let us investigate this
:41:03. > :41:06.properly, let us take not just my word or the word of the Labour
:41:07. > :41:11.Party, let's have a cross-party look at what the Tory party is trying to
:41:12. > :41:15.do and I would put store by that. Let's look at the report on the 29th
:41:16. > :41:19.of the brewery. Thank you very much. -- February.
:41:20. > :41:21.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking to an MP
:41:22. > :41:32.from the latest Eurosceptic group hoping to be chosen as the official
:41:33. > :41:34.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.
:41:35. > :41:37.Deadlock over legacy continues to dominate
:41:38. > :41:40.the political agenda, so is there the will to resolve
:41:41. > :41:46.We'll hear from the leaders of the UUP and the SDLP.
:41:47. > :41:48.The battle is in full swing in the Republic,
:41:49. > :41:51.with polling in the general election less than three weeks away.
:41:52. > :41:53.And our guests of the day are Dawn Purvis
:41:54. > :42:08.If anyone needed a reminder of the importance of legacy issues,
:42:09. > :42:10.in recent days, we've had former and current chief constables -
:42:11. > :42:12.as well as the authors of the Eames-Bradley Report -
:42:13. > :42:16.all taking to the airwaves to say what needs to happen.
:42:17. > :42:19.This is what Sir Hugh Orde and George Hamilton had to say
:42:20. > :42:23.First of all, their different perspectives on the Historical
:42:24. > :42:25.Enquiries Team, which Sir Hugh maintains was the first step
:42:26. > :42:38.My ambition was to be part of a wider process. That is why we set it
:42:39. > :42:42.up. Sadly, no-one came in the windows, leaving the Historical
:42:43. > :42:45.Enquiries Team to be the only show in town and now sadly even that has
:42:46. > :42:51.gone. We have gone backwards, not forwards. It was based on trying to
:42:52. > :42:54.do something fundamentally different to what police services did now
:42:55. > :42:59.passed. It was trying to understand what victims wanted to know and
:43:00. > :43:05.doing our level best to give them some form of resolution in terms of
:43:06. > :43:08.what had gone on when their loved one was killed. It started off on
:43:09. > :43:14.the right footing but there were problems as we developed it. There
:43:15. > :43:19.was not confidence in the work of the ACT. So you said in his piece
:43:20. > :43:24.that this was a different approach and that was to be welcomed and
:43:25. > :43:27.defended. It was to be victim centred, and suing questions for
:43:28. > :43:36.families, all of which is important. But under the Police Act, I have to
:43:37. > :43:39.collect evidence, and bring offenders to justice. We want to do
:43:40. > :43:43.that in a way that is sensitive and informative to families. But that
:43:44. > :43:47.was the problem. They did not have a firm grounding on the purpose.
:43:48. > :43:50.There was agreement between the two, though, about the need for political
:43:51. > :43:53.leadership to resolve for good the outstanding legacy problems.
:43:54. > :44:02.These processes around what people can see, what they cannot see, needs
:44:03. > :44:09.a political solution rather than a legal one. If we hide behind the
:44:10. > :44:13.law, we will see is more demands for inquests, public enquiries and more
:44:14. > :44:16.investigations. There simply are not the resources for any of that to
:44:17. > :44:20.happen. It is a reality check and political leadership will resolve
:44:21. > :44:25.that issue if they wanted to be resolved. It is interesting that the
:44:26. > :44:31.first Duke Constable on your programme to make believed it will
:44:32. > :44:35.be -- it had been resolved soon after 2003. I hope the progress we
:44:36. > :44:42.have made means of me will resolve it in NXT you'll spot it has been
:44:43. > :44:46.huge problem. -- means we will get resolved in the next few years but
:44:47. > :44:48.it has been a big problem. We want to move this thing forward.
:44:49. > :44:49.The Chief Constable, George Hamilton.
:44:50. > :44:51.Let's pursue some of those issues now with the leaders
:44:52. > :44:53.of the Ulster Unionist Party and the SDLP.
:44:54. > :44:56.Mike Nesbitt is with me in Belfast and Colum Eastwood
:44:57. > :45:00.Welcome. Mike Nesbitt, George Hamilton talked about the need for
:45:01. > :45:02.compromise and rate decisions. Do you see any evidence
:45:03. > :45:09.of that happening? Not at all and I have been involved
:45:10. > :45:15.in talks for probably three years on these issues. I do not think we have
:45:16. > :45:19.a common understanding of what we mean with dealing with the past.
:45:20. > :45:23.What we mean to deal with it and for whose benefit? People talk about
:45:24. > :45:27.being victim centred. IKEA that a lot from Sinn Fein but look at what
:45:28. > :45:31.we have had an last few days. The IRA are trying to say, we are not
:45:32. > :45:39.responsible for the Shankill bomb, the police were. Going back to the
:45:40. > :45:46.Castlereagh break-in, you have Gerry Kelly saying it was not the IRA. Now
:45:47. > :45:51.the IRA, what they have got, it does not prove anything other than the
:45:52. > :45:53.fact that they are responsible. The survivors and victims are being
:45:54. > :45:58.re-traumatised because of the strategies of Republicans to cover
:45:59. > :46:04.embarrassment for the seedy sectarian war by saying others are
:46:05. > :46:07.responsible. It is a Regis to do that to victims and survivors. There
:46:08. > :46:11.is no evidence that police knew about the Shankill bomb and every
:46:12. > :46:18.evidence says it was the IRA. George Hamilton is very clear. Compromised,
:46:19. > :46:29.compromise and brave decisions. Are you,? -- argue for that? That is not
:46:30. > :46:35.compromise. Compromise means you have to give and take. Yes. I'm
:46:36. > :46:40.prepared to look at the well-being of everyone, no matter how they got
:46:41. > :46:44.past their mental health. We have forgotten the lesson of George
:46:45. > :46:53.Mitchell. He said, you're focusing on the things that are most
:46:54. > :46:58.intractable. Let's look at an agenda which means we can agree on
:46:59. > :47:01.something. It is a really toxic legacy. Why don't we do with that
:47:02. > :47:11.rather than allow people to suffer because of the mutual butyl between
:47:12. > :47:13.the DUP and Sinn Fein? Colum Eastwood, George Hamilton talked
:47:14. > :47:17.about compromise and brave decisions. You have what Mike
:47:18. > :47:22.Nesbitt said in his response to the Chief Constable. What do you make of
:47:23. > :47:26.it? One of the lessons in last couple of weeks around the Shankill
:47:27. > :47:30.bombing, and I was on the Shankill with those families in the days
:47:31. > :47:33.after that report came out, those families have again been
:47:34. > :47:37.re-traumatised by the failure of all of us to do with the past. My
:47:38. > :47:41.generation wants to move on, wants to move forward. I don't think we
:47:42. > :47:45.can until we properly deal with the legacy of the past. It continues to
:47:46. > :47:49.infect and affect the politics of today. If we want to look after the
:47:50. > :47:53.victims, we want to look after those people who have been left behind,
:47:54. > :47:58.and we want to look after the political process today, we have to
:47:59. > :48:02.deal with the past. We can no longer pretend that does not exist. We can
:48:03. > :48:07.no longer pretend it will go away. We have to engage in a serious
:48:08. > :48:11.process of dealing with this. I'm not waiting until after the election
:48:12. > :48:16.or anything else. When can it be resolved then? When you listen to
:48:17. > :48:19.politicians individually, it sounds like the other million miles apart
:48:20. > :48:22.on key issues and yet we hear from Martin McGuinness that if the issue
:48:23. > :48:28.can't be solved before the election, it's be resolved after me's
:48:29. > :48:33.election. The Secretary of State says, we're closer than ever before.
:48:34. > :48:37.You believe that? In terms of structures, think we can agree. The
:48:38. > :48:41.big gap is political will from the British Government, from the IRA and
:48:42. > :48:48.other paramilitary groups. You have seen what Lord Justice Weir has said
:48:49. > :48:51.in the last few weeks. The blockages bid in the way of justice and truth
:48:52. > :48:55.from the MOD and paramilitary organisations. I think we can all
:48:56. > :48:59.easily agree the structures but if people are not prepared and
:49:00. > :49:02.organisations and governments are not prepared to move forward until
:49:03. > :49:06.the full truth of what happened, we will always be on this
:49:07. > :49:14.merry-go-round. I just want to ask you very quickly about Eames-Bradley
:49:15. > :49:17.. Hugh Orde said he thinks it is high time that the Eames-Bradley
:49:18. > :49:20.Report be lifted off the shelf where it has gathered dust for the past
:49:21. > :49:25.seven years. Does that make sense and would that help nudge people
:49:26. > :49:31.forward? We have always said that Eames-Bradley was an attempt to do
:49:32. > :49:35.with the past and it is an opportunity lost. In number of
:49:36. > :49:37.victims and survivors have unfortunately passed away. We have
:49:38. > :49:42.missed the opportunity to give them truth and justice that they so
:49:43. > :49:46.desperately require. What we do need now is a political will from those
:49:47. > :49:51.people who have the truth to tell. That has been the big gap. It is
:49:52. > :49:57.very unfortunate that we are re-traumatising victims every day
:49:58. > :50:00.with different approaches to how we actually deal with the past. I think
:50:01. > :50:06.it does hurt our future and it does not do our future any good. The
:50:07. > :50:12.prospects of a different type of society here. If we continue to
:50:13. > :50:15.re-traumatised victims with issues that affect them.
:50:16. > :50:18.The big sticking point for some unionists was the ?12,000
:50:19. > :50:19.recognition payment for victims of the Troubles.
:50:20. > :50:22.Denis Bradley said on Friday he believes the DUP's acceptance
:50:23. > :50:24.of the Evason Report shows that the party has
:50:25. > :50:35.Has he got that right? That is a question for the DUP but he is
:50:36. > :50:39.certainly right to raise the question. It does seem to set a
:50:40. > :50:42.precedent and you wonder where that is going and whether that is the DUP
:50:43. > :50:46.taking their eye off the ball on whether they know exactly where they
:50:47. > :50:50.are going with this potentially in terms of the proposal for those
:50:51. > :50:56.carrying serious physical injury, which has not come forward because a
:50:57. > :50:58.small number of the 250 or so who qualified had suffered injury at
:50:59. > :51:03.their own hands through their own terrorist acts. Jeffrey Donaldson
:51:04. > :51:08.was very clear in responding that the DUP's position is not shifted.
:51:09. > :51:16.Clearly, people do think that the position has shifted. He said it is
:51:17. > :51:19.not a question for you, but I am asking you, does it look like the
:51:20. > :51:25.DUP has shifted its position, and if it has, without necessarily be a bad
:51:26. > :51:27.thing for Unionism? They have either shifted their position they are
:51:28. > :51:33.sleep at the wheel. Either way, we need to know. Neither is
:51:34. > :51:36.particularly edifying. What we are looking for here are processes that
:51:37. > :51:46.unblock something that is badly blocked. Colum talks about truth.
:51:47. > :51:48.But there is not a truth. What we have proposed thinking about this is
:51:49. > :51:52.that the one thing you cannot disagree about is that certain
:51:53. > :51:58.things happen in some places at some times. With the Shankill bomb, you
:51:59. > :52:02.can lay down a factual spine and allow people to record their own
:52:03. > :52:05.impressions of that. Because the search for an agreed narrative is
:52:06. > :52:09.the search for Holy Grail that will not happen. Would you be prepared to
:52:10. > :52:15.compromise on an issue like this if the bigger picture was resolved?
:52:16. > :52:18.This has been toxic for as long as anyone can remember and it will
:52:19. > :52:24.continue to be so. It seems to get worse as time passes rather than
:52:25. > :52:28.better. Might it be today better -- betterment of Unionists to swallow
:52:29. > :52:35.hard and deal with this for the greater good? The easy bite, which
:52:36. > :52:40.would make a big impact, is to recognise so many victims suffer
:52:41. > :52:43.from them until health and well-being and it is
:52:44. > :52:46.intergenerational. People born after ceasefires are suffering the toxic
:52:47. > :52:50.legacy of the conflict. Let's do that as a confidence builder.
:52:51. > :52:53.Another thing I am very keen on is acknowledgement statements. I would
:52:54. > :52:57.be prepared as the leader of Unionism to make a statement about
:52:58. > :53:01.what Unionism did and did not do in the years we were in charge if
:53:02. > :53:07.others were prepared to speak out. Colum Eastwood, 20 seconds left. Is
:53:08. > :53:10.there a failure for politicians to face up to making the difficult
:53:11. > :53:16.decisions that have got to be taking? We need to recognise that
:53:17. > :53:20.this is an issue for people that have the most truth to tell and they
:53:21. > :53:24.should be telling it. I would encourage the British Government, in
:53:25. > :53:28.terms of David Cameron, he needs to step in. This is why above the
:53:29. > :53:32.Secretary of State's pay grade and he needs to recognise that the good
:53:33. > :53:35.thing he did around Bloody Sunday, you can do that again and offer lots
:53:36. > :53:37.of people that same level of truth and justice. Thank you both very
:53:38. > :53:38.much indeed. Let's hear from Cathy
:53:39. > :53:48.Gormley-Heenan and Dawn Purvis. Welcome. Do you think there is some
:53:49. > :53:54.merit in it Eames-Bradley being back in the mix? It was one of the
:53:55. > :53:57.documents that most people find a lot of merit in in the peace
:53:58. > :54:03.process. What has happened since his Bradley Dack my, it was a big
:54:04. > :54:07.document and the issue of dealing with the past got reduced and
:54:08. > :54:10.reduced. It is right down to about five pages in the Stormont House
:54:11. > :54:18.agreement. The detail of it was not there. There are certainly have been
:54:19. > :54:23.many calls for Eames-Bradley to be dusted down and looked at again. But
:54:24. > :54:27.there is the role of the British Government in terms of this process
:54:28. > :54:29.going forward and now one use the words of national-security, which we
:54:30. > :54:34.know is one of the main sticking points at the minute and is not
:54:35. > :54:38.something that Eames-Bradley focused on. If you look at any international
:54:39. > :54:43.cases of the peace processes, no-one ever puts into peace agreements the
:54:44. > :54:46.need for a national-security veto. The British Government is out of
:54:47. > :54:52.step with the rest of international processes on this. Do you detect any
:54:53. > :54:58.shifts in emphasis, significant shifts, on the part of nationalism
:54:59. > :55:03.or Unionism recently? Yes, I do. I recognise a shift from the DUP. When
:55:04. > :55:10.we look at when Eames-Bradley was published in the recognition
:55:11. > :55:16.payment, people were not happy. It is pragmatic by the DUP to sign up
:55:17. > :55:22.to the Evason Report and it paves the way for the pension fund was
:55:23. > :55:25.seriously injured. Jeffrey Donaldson was very clear, it is not a U-turn
:55:26. > :55:31.and does not necessarily connect with Eames-Bradley. He made the
:55:32. > :55:34.point that the two things are quite separate. Fair enough, but it is
:55:35. > :55:39.still a step forward. People are recognised for a long time that
:55:40. > :55:45.there are people waiting on this pension and they should have it.
:55:46. > :55:49.What I do detect is that whilst there is some political will to
:55:50. > :55:52.reach agreement on these issues around the Stormont is agreement, I
:55:53. > :55:56.do not detect that all the parties in those negotiations. At the
:55:57. > :56:02.minute, it falls down to Sinn Fein and the Secretary of State and it
:56:03. > :56:03.should involve all parties. We will hear more from both of you later.
:56:04. > :56:04.For now, thank you. Time now for a look back
:56:05. > :56:19.at the week in 60 seconds, This woman missed out on being
:56:20. > :56:26.selected for the Assembly. Jonathan Bell claimed, we did not know the EU
:56:27. > :56:31.referendum question. It is very foolish person who answers before
:56:32. > :56:35.they know the exact nature of the question.
:56:36. > :56:39.Jim Allister was on hand to put the minister right. Why is the Minister
:56:40. > :56:42.coming to this House pretending they don't know the question when the law
:56:43. > :56:46.of the landscapes what the question is? The Assembly consider downsizing
:56:47. > :56:52.but the numbers matter? It could be five, four, it is being
:56:53. > :56:58.streamlined and efficient for our people. Phil Flannigan faced a
:56:59. > :57:02.massive legal bill after libelling Tom Elliott.
:57:03. > :57:10.And bird fanciers got rates relief as our MLAs ruled out pigeon puns.
:57:11. > :57:11.We think the policy does have wings and they should get their rates
:57:12. > :57:18.cheaper. Stephen Walker, still in a flap over
:57:19. > :57:21.the pigeon puns this week. Next to the election
:57:22. > :57:24.in the Republic. The starting gun was fired last week
:57:25. > :57:27.on a very short campaign. Muiris MacCartaigh
:57:28. > :57:28.from Queen's University You have been following developments
:57:29. > :57:33.very closely. Enda Kenny had a bit
:57:34. > :57:45.of an economic wobble in week one. Not good for him. Your Mac that is
:57:46. > :57:49.right. In contrast with 2011 elections, it is extraordinary. The
:57:50. > :57:55.campaign was about cuts to economies and freefall. Now, economic growth
:57:56. > :58:04.is very good in the Republic. What happened during the week is, the
:58:05. > :58:06.byword for the election was about the long-term economic plan, and
:58:07. > :58:09.they came out and said there would be something to the turn of 12
:58:10. > :58:14.billion in the next five years in terms of extra revenues. Whilst not
:58:15. > :58:19.breaching the very strict EU stability and growth figures. The
:58:20. > :58:23.party started to probe into this and he said, actually, that is not quite
:58:24. > :58:31.true. By Friday, or foster, they released a statement
:58:32. > :58:32.true. By Friday, or foster, they drop-down. For a party saying that
:58:33. > :58:40.we know how to handle the Connolly, not an ideal start. Not great and a
:58:41. > :58:46.personal level. How much will this come down to economic stability
:58:47. > :58:50.versus chaos scenario? As you said, the outgoing administration, this is
:58:51. > :58:54.the key card. Both said they would like to go into Government with each
:58:55. > :58:58.other. They say, you know, vote for us, we can provide, we can keep
:58:59. > :59:03.economic growth going that is currently taking place. The other
:59:04. > :59:12.parties... There is this issue about fairness. How will resources be
:59:13. > :59:16.used? The opposition parties, other smaller parties are saying, well,
:59:17. > :59:20.yes, the economy has turned a corner but a lot of families, working
:59:21. > :59:26.families are not feeling this at all. So it is about the economy,
:59:27. > :59:36.economic growth, versus strength and distribution. When you look at the
:59:37. > :59:39.polls out today, one has Sinn Fein down a couple of points, others
:59:40. > :59:42.suggest something similar are bit different, all within the margins of
:59:43. > :59:47.error. It is very difficult to read. It is. There are two elements to
:59:48. > :59:53.this. It is absolutely remarkable in terms of the number of parties
:59:54. > :59:58.entering this election. A vast number of independents as well.
:59:59. > :00:01.There has been a lot of stability, when you take into consideration the
:00:02. > :00:07.margin of error, there is a lot of stability. Sinn Fein is around 20%.
:00:08. > :00:12.The Labour Party trying to breach that 10% mark. And about 20% more
:00:13. > :00:17.for independence and smaller parties. There are nine or ten
:00:18. > :00:22.possible College and options which is very strange. Indeed, in my
:00:23. > :00:34.lifetime, in fact, in the history of Ireland, I do not recall it being
:00:35. > :00:42.one where finny -- where the incumbent looks like the largest
:00:43. > :00:48.party and Enda Kenny could be the Taoiseach for two elections. I think
:00:49. > :00:52.of it 6-9 months ago, there was talk about this and understand they met
:00:53. > :00:56.with the people who worked with the Tory party in the British system,
:00:57. > :01:00.trying to work towards this because it is a slightly reduced Parliament
:01:01. > :01:06.chamber of parliament is in this election. It is down from 166 6158.
:01:07. > :01:12.So I think they have been thing, if we maintain our vote, we were not to
:01:13. > :01:16.fire off a majority last time, it could go a different way. But that
:01:17. > :01:21.is off the table now. The party has accepted numbers will drop. The
:01:22. > :01:28.current numbers, they don't have enough majority. So the save money
:01:29. > :01:32.is Will there be a thug element to the coalition? A lot of the smaller
:01:33. > :01:36.parties are saying, that is instability. We might have another
:01:37. > :01:39.five-year Government. Thank you very much indeed for joining us.
:01:40. > :01:43.And let's have a final word with Cathy and Dawn.
:01:44. > :01:46.Loads of interesting things happening.
:01:47. > :01:48.The Alliance MLAs Stewart Dickson and Trevor Lunn have
:01:49. > :01:51.tabled an amendment to the Justice Bill this week
:01:52. > :01:52.which would allow for abortion here in cases
:01:53. > :02:05.Abortion stigma has always got political discourse running through
:02:06. > :02:08.it. In terms of how it is unfolding, I think the most interesting thing
:02:09. > :02:12.that we have to remember when this is tabled next week is that everyone
:02:13. > :02:18.involved in the policy-making process around this is male, bar
:02:19. > :02:20.one. The Lord Chief Justice, the Attorney General, the Minister for
:02:21. > :02:26.Justice, all of the Department, all of the committee for Justice are one
:02:27. > :02:30.committee and the church leaders are male. This is a male dominated
:02:31. > :02:34.political policy environment that is charged effectively with something
:02:35. > :02:40.that will never be a personal reality for any of them. Is there
:02:41. > :02:47.any chance of it being a free vote at Stormont? I am not entirely sure.
:02:48. > :02:52.I will defer to dawn on this. I do not think so on this point. It is
:02:53. > :02:56.too soon. The reality is that how MLAs think privately is very
:02:57. > :02:59.different from what they are necessity to say publicly and we
:03:00. > :03:06.know that from surveys with Assembly members have been surveyed. They are
:03:07. > :03:09.not out of kilter with oblique sentiment, which is support of other
:03:10. > :03:14.members. That is an interesting point. You have a particular
:03:15. > :03:17.interest in this issue, given your previous involvement with the Marie
:03:18. > :03:22.Stopes clinic. We'll MLAs back legislative change? If there was a
:03:23. > :03:29.free vote next week, they would support legislative change. Sinn
:03:30. > :03:31.Fein's policy to support abortion in cases of beetle at the martyr. We
:03:32. > :03:40.will not see a petition of concern coming from them. -- fatal foetal
:03:41. > :03:43.abnormality. If Arlene Foster allows a free vote in her Assembly, we
:03:44. > :03:47.might see the amendment going through. I do not think she will
:03:48. > :03:50.allow a free vote at this stage in advance of an election. I think she
:03:51. > :03:54.will want to keep the party tight and make sure that there is no
:03:55. > :04:00.strange moves coming from the DUP and that when people come to the
:04:01. > :04:03.polls later in May, they know that. There are many public
:04:04. > :04:05.representatives and members of the public who take the view that there
:04:06. > :04:10.should not be abortion in any circumstances and that includes
:04:11. > :04:18.sexual crime or foetal foetal up the Marty. Sure. What opinion poll after
:04:19. > :04:21.opinion poll shows that people want to see legislative change. -- fatal
:04:22. > :04:34.foetal abnormality. If you believe some of the polls -
:04:35. > :04:36.and we're not much inclined to these days - those arguing for Britain
:04:37. > :04:40.to leave the EU could be ahead of those who want us
:04:41. > :04:42.to remain a member. If true, it can't have much to do
:04:43. > :04:45.with the unity shown by those jostling to be picked
:04:46. > :04:49.as the official, designated leave campaign, as they've spent all week
:04:50. > :04:56.fighting like ferrets in a sack. UKIP MP Douglas Carswell
:04:57. > :04:59.was speaking to Andrew Marr earlier about one of the newer leave groups,
:05:00. > :05:02.called Grassroots Out or GO for short, which is
:05:03. > :05:06.hoping to be chosen. I was out at the weekend
:05:07. > :05:11.and the weekend before We've got a great ground
:05:12. > :05:14.game in Vote Leave. We've delivered
:05:15. > :05:16.millions of leaflets. I'm not going to be
:05:17. > :05:19.disrespectful of any They're led by people
:05:20. > :05:23.who've done this before. And I think what's important
:05:24. > :05:26.is that we make sure that people realise that David Cameron's
:05:27. > :05:36.deal is pretty duff. Well, Peter Bone is one
:05:37. > :05:52.of the MPs behind GO. Why should you get the official
:05:53. > :06:00.designation? Were not united and still 37, 43%, but it looks good,
:06:01. > :06:13.there are 42 grassroot campaigns made up of different people, and I
:06:14. > :06:18.think who should get designation, it is an establishment view that you
:06:19. > :06:26.have to have a top-down organisation like BSE, imposed from the top,
:06:27. > :06:30.there was nobody going out on the February morning is knocking on
:06:31. > :06:39.doors, there are 42 campaigns so this is from the grassroots up. It
:06:40. > :06:41.is not another campaigning organisation bringing everyone
:06:42. > :06:47.together and they still have independence. With this umbrella
:06:48. > :06:54.stop you from knocking each other? Aaron Banks, he has put money into
:06:55. > :07:04.Grassroots Out? It is funded by a number of individuals. Conservative
:07:05. > :07:09.donors... Here's one of them and he said that people in vote leave where
:07:10. > :07:19.two of the nastiest individuals I ever had the misfortune to leave.
:07:20. > :07:29.Kate Hoey, voting to quit. She is also voting for Vote Leave. Let us
:07:30. > :07:34.bring everyone together, this has to stop, last week whenever we had 100
:07:35. > :07:39.people from all of the different groups and parties working together,
:07:40. > :07:45.why cannot we get that at the top? One happy family working under the
:07:46. > :07:51.grassroots movement. You have that bright Grassroots Out tie on. This
:07:52. > :07:58.picture has more than just a tie on it. One of your colleagues,
:07:59. > :08:05.launching the campaign with the Union Jack jacket. People might
:08:06. > :08:08.remember the John Redwood leadership campaign would wonder if politicians
:08:09. > :08:17.want to be seen on the same platform as that? People are going out across
:08:18. > :08:24.the country, campaigning to come out of the EU. Not looking like that,
:08:25. > :08:33.looking like me! No, they don't want to look like me! Is this just
:08:34. > :08:39.journalist from? The poll has them ahead? The Electoral Commission in
:08:40. > :08:45.the next few weeks will have to designate one of these groups as the
:08:46. > :08:51.main out and in group and both sides are fighting like bad. The danger
:08:52. > :08:56.for the leaving camp is the group to win this referendum will be the
:08:57. > :09:00.group that wins the argument that it represents the safest option and the
:09:01. > :09:05.losing group will be portrayed as the riskiest. People like Douglas
:09:06. > :09:09.Carswell or deeply fearful of Nigel Farage as one of the main figures on
:09:10. > :09:14.the outside because in a good day he can get 30% of the electorate and
:09:15. > :09:25.that is why Grassroots Out is established, because the Aaron Banks
:09:26. > :09:31.group, he is funding the other group which has cross-party support and
:09:32. > :09:36.that will be important. Vote Leave, the more stable, steady safer option
:09:37. > :09:46.is now struggling on the cross-party option, particularly in that box.
:09:47. > :09:53.How do you know all that) it is also quite true. Why are you talking
:09:54. > :09:57.about the personalities and the policies and that is a reflection
:09:58. > :10:05.of, when we talk about policies people would enter a coma. Neither
:10:06. > :10:08.side has key messages, I don't think you could stop 100 people in the
:10:09. > :10:12.street and one could tell you anything that was in this and that
:10:13. > :10:19.is why we talk about personalities. We are doing our best! We have
:10:20. > :10:22.always exaggerated the importance of campaigns on election results and
:10:23. > :10:28.referendums and last I was told that because of Labour's assiduous work
:10:29. > :10:33.at ground level they would end up counteracting disadvantages like
:10:34. > :10:38.leadership and economic credibility so I have never believed that the
:10:39. > :10:41.internal rivalry would really hold them back and recent opinion polls
:10:42. > :10:45.have stood up to that. What really goes on their favour is the nature
:10:46. > :10:52.of the deal that David Cameron extracted last week because it is
:10:53. > :10:56.less impressive than was instigated in the Bloomberg speech and it will
:10:57. > :11:02.have to fight the referendum on the existing terms of membership and I
:11:03. > :11:06.think he can win that but he would have gone into the last four months
:11:07. > :11:11.of this campaign with something drastically different and not
:11:12. > :11:16.cosmetically different. That is right, the fundamental issues will
:11:17. > :11:19.be debated and we are all innovative this Westminster bubble thinking
:11:20. > :11:26.that Joe Bloggs says this and it matters but on the street, nobody
:11:27. > :11:30.can name any of these campaigns and the simple question is, in or out
:11:31. > :11:34.were undecided? That is what we're finding and a lot of people are
:11:35. > :11:40.undecided who say we have not heard the arguments and we clearly have to
:11:41. > :11:43.get our message out on leaving and that does concern emigration and
:11:44. > :11:48.controlling borders but also the fact that we pay 55th -- ?55 million
:11:49. > :11:56.every week to Europe and get nothing. You get half of that act.
:11:57. > :12:04.We don't. You do! We get a bit of that back. They decide how we spend
:12:05. > :12:12.it. You get it back as a rebate and you also get it back in funding from
:12:13. > :12:18.the EU? The facts will matter. How many billions of pounds each week
:12:19. > :12:22.goes to the EU that we have no control over? You said the gross
:12:23. > :12:30.figures... The net figure is about half of that. It is not. If you go
:12:31. > :12:35.into the detail I can assure you it is. Can you win this without any
:12:36. > :12:41.front person? Behead Minister of is heading up the game campaign. If he
:12:42. > :12:49.does not get what he wants he will be heading up the Grassroots Out
:12:50. > :12:54.campaign. -- I will be. You are not holding your breath. Who should be
:12:55. > :12:59.heading up your side? I don't want any figurehead. Who would debate
:13:00. > :13:06.with the Prime Minister? It depends on the issues. In or out, how about
:13:07. > :13:13.that? If you are talking about dozens, a businessman, trade unions,
:13:14. > :13:20.somebody from Labour Leave. Belgian rambler that a government... I will
:13:21. > :13:23.have to stop you expect thanks to all of the guests.
:13:24. > :13:25.Join us next Sunday at 11, when we'll be taking stock
:13:26. > :13:30.made by the Conservatives at last year's election and asking
:13:31. > :13:34.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.