:01:13. > :01:17.And coming up here: A damning report followed by a declaration of no
:01:17. > :01:21.confidence. What does the future hold for the Historical Enquiries
:01:21. > :01:31.Team? We hear from Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly and Tom Elliott from the
:01:31. > :01:31.
:01:31. > :37:38.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2167 seconds
:37:38. > :37:41.in Northern Ireland. A damning report followed by a
:37:41. > :37:44.declaration of no confidence from the Policing Board. What does the
:37:44. > :37:48.future hold for the Historical Enquires Team? We'll be asking two
:37:48. > :37:51.senior MLAs if the HET will survive the current crisis.
:37:51. > :37:55.Also today, it's been hailed as a huge opportunity to showcase
:37:55. > :37:59.Northern Ireland. So can the World Police and Fires Games live up to
:37:59. > :38:03.the hype? We'll hear from chair of the games, Judith Gillespie.
:38:03. > :38:13.To discuss all of that and more, my guests today are the journalist,
:38:13. > :38:17.
:38:17. > :38:20.Steven McCaffery, and the financial commentator Paul Gosling.
:38:20. > :38:23.Tomorrow the head of the Historical Enquiries, Dave Cox, is due to meet
:38:23. > :38:26.the Chief Constable for the first time since the Policing Board
:38:26. > :38:28.declared it had no confidence in the team's leadership. It follows a
:38:28. > :38:31.damning report, which strongly criticised the HET for dealing with
:38:31. > :38:34.killings by soldiers with 'less rigour' than those with no state
:38:34. > :38:37.involvement. So, with the body under increasing pressure, does the crisis
:38:37. > :38:45.re-open the debate about how best to deal with the past? I'm joined now
:38:45. > :38:48.by Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly and Tom Elliott from the Ulster Unionists.
:38:48. > :38:55.The head of the HET, Dave Cox, is due to meet the Chief Constable
:38:55. > :39:02.tomorrow. What needs to happen at that meeting? I think it is
:39:02. > :39:08.important that there is no confidence in the leadership of the
:39:08. > :39:13.HET and Dave Cox clearly is in the leadership of that. We are talking
:39:13. > :39:19.about a different approach to state cases and non-state cases as a
:39:19. > :39:25.matter of written down policy and guidelines, and somebody has to take
:39:25. > :39:28.responsibility for that. When the person who led the inquiry was
:39:28. > :39:33.direct -- directly asked by the Policing Board he was responsible,
:39:33. > :39:39.he said it was the Chief Constable. The Chief Constable has said that
:39:39. > :39:45.the wrongful policy was a matter of the HET. What is very, very clear is
:39:45. > :39:51.that a policy decision was made and it was illegal, which is the other
:39:51. > :39:55.important thing to say. It was actually unlawful to do this. It was
:39:55. > :39:59.unlawful and untenable, so someone has to tell us what is going to
:39:59. > :40:07.happen to whoever was responsible. Would you like to see Dave Cox
:40:07. > :40:13.resigning? If he is the leader and you have no confidence, does he have
:40:13. > :40:18.to go? My position is very clear. There is no way that I can see Dave
:40:18. > :40:24.Cox staying. Does it stop at bats or does it have ramifications for the
:40:24. > :40:29.Chief Constable as well. -- does it stop at that or does it have
:40:29. > :40:39.ramifications for the Chief Constable as well? We are setting up
:40:39. > :40:49.with the Policing Board in charge 18 to implement the 20 recommendations
:40:49. > :40:49.
:40:49. > :40:54.-- with the Policing Board 18 two implement the 20 recommendations
:40:54. > :41:01.that have been made. League-macro you cannot blame everything on the
:41:01. > :41:05.establishment. -- you cannot blame everything on the establishment.
:41:05. > :41:09.did not believe they were carrying out a proper review process of many
:41:09. > :41:13.of the murders. I think we are getting into a system that appears
:41:13. > :41:19.to be blaming the state for everything. Let's not forget that
:41:19. > :41:24.ever 90% of the murders in Northern Ireland were by terrorists, not by
:41:24. > :41:29.the state. That does not what this investigation was about. That is not
:41:29. > :41:35.what we are discussing. This investigation and this particular
:41:35. > :41:40.room port is very narrow in its focus. Look at the 31 cases, a vast
:41:40. > :41:45.majority of them were cases that the state was involved in. The state was
:41:45. > :41:48.involved in less than 10% of the overall murders in Northern Ireland.
:41:48. > :41:52.There are people from the community that I represent to our saying that
:41:52. > :41:59.they are only seeing one side of the report and they want people to get
:41:59. > :42:04.justice for all of the murders that were caused by terrorists. That
:42:04. > :42:08.might be the case and that might be an issue that is discussed at
:42:08. > :42:12.another time. The point is, we are discussing this particular review of
:42:12. > :42:16.the work of the HET which was tasked with looking after a specific area,
:42:16. > :42:21.and it has come up with these damning conclusions. Are you not
:42:21. > :42:29.concerned that the HET -- HET has been found to be operating in a way
:42:29. > :42:34.that is untenable and unlawful? concerned, just as I was concerned
:42:34. > :42:39.for years ago about them not approaching those who could have
:42:39. > :42:43.been of help and assistance in approaching these investigations.
:42:43. > :42:46.Any number of Sinn Fein, even Sinn Fein collectively, there were any
:42:47. > :42:56.number of people who could've helped with these cases, and they have not
:42:57. > :42:58.
:42:58. > :43:04.once. What needs to happen to resolve this issue is to go forward?
:43:04. > :43:08.If you look at the other inquiries going on, including the police and
:43:08. > :43:12.coroner inquests, I do not believe the system we have in place can
:43:12. > :43:15.actually deal with the past. I believe that we have got to a stage
:43:15. > :43:20.now where there is no confidence in dealing with the past overall
:43:20. > :43:27.because people from the Unionists agenda -- Unionist party see that
:43:27. > :43:31.there is an agenda and that they are not getting fairness and equality.
:43:31. > :43:35.If the vast majority of the people in the country were murdered by
:43:35. > :43:39.terrorists... Whether you like it or not, it is clearly a view which is
:43:39. > :43:46.held by a lot of people, and it is part of the difficulty that we all
:43:46. > :43:51.face as a society. He is giving the impression that this is not fair.
:43:51. > :43:55.You have to remember what this report is about. It is about the
:43:55. > :44:03.unfairness of those who were not in the state cases. It is quite the
:44:03. > :44:07.flip side of what Tom saying. -- Tom is saying. Sinn Fein for a long time
:44:07. > :44:13.have said that the best way to deal with the past is to go through a
:44:13. > :44:16.process, and there are many examples of these, and they have been
:44:16. > :44:23.adapted. It is Unionists who are refusing to go anywhere near a truth
:44:23. > :44:30.process. I am very much up for it. That is where we need to go. It is
:44:30. > :44:40.important to say this, Professor Patricia Lundy, as far back as that
:44:40. > :44:46.point of the difficulties, she was rubbish, her reputation was ruined.
:44:46. > :44:53.Her reputation is intact. All I am saying is that it was quite unfair
:44:53. > :45:02.that but the HET in answer to the report and members of the PSNI
:45:02. > :45:12.ruined her and she has been being vacated and it needs to be said. --
:45:12. > :45:12.
:45:12. > :45:18.vindicated. You have said that the recommendations need to be put back
:45:18. > :45:20.on the table again and that we look at the Legacy Commission led by an
:45:20. > :45:29.end -- international figure to take over the work of the police
:45:29. > :45:33.ombudsman and the HET. Is that one of the options? It may be. He talks
:45:33. > :45:43.about trying to get a truth commission. How are you going to get
:45:43. > :45:47.a truth commission trying to operate properly when you have some people
:45:47. > :45:52.think they have no issues of terrorism in the community and they
:45:52. > :45:54.do not believe there are terrorists in the community? Isn't it to the
:45:54. > :45:57.point that within a truth commission, people would address
:45:57. > :46:02.issues in a way that they do not address them at the moment? You have
:46:02. > :46:07.no idea what anybody might say when they are giving evidence to a truth
:46:07. > :46:13.commission. But we have to take some example with what Martin McGuinness
:46:13. > :46:16.did in the bloody Sunday inquiry where he said he could not give
:46:16. > :46:20.further evidence because of a code. If I could finish this point, that
:46:20. > :46:25.is a major issue for people from the Unionist community. Those are people
:46:25. > :46:31.who had friends and colleagues murdered by those terrorists.
:46:31. > :46:36.are the facts. The facts are that there is something like 400 State
:46:36. > :46:42.killings during the conflict, that in terms of collusion, that goes way
:46:42. > :46:47.up past 1000. In terms of people who have gone to jail, there are tens of
:46:47. > :46:52.thousands of cases of non-state people who have gone through jail,
:46:52. > :46:57.including myself. There are hundreds of thousands there already. How many
:46:57. > :47:01.of the state forces? They all get out within a couple of years.
:47:01. > :47:07.think these recommendations should be back on the table? What I think
:47:07. > :47:14.we should do in terms of the HET is to try to find a way for them in
:47:14. > :47:18.terms of truth and hopefully that will be the racks. No matter who you
:47:18. > :47:23.talk to, people will agree that they want the truth. Give them the
:47:23. > :47:28.truth, but everybody has to be involved, including state forces.
:47:28. > :47:35.might hear another word from you in a moment, but I want to get my
:47:35. > :47:41.guests in. Journalist Steven McCaffery and financial commentator
:47:41. > :47:45.Paul Gosling. What do you think about what you have heard so far?
:47:45. > :47:51.was not that long ago that we had the collapse of the police
:47:51. > :47:57.ombudsman's office. Whether you thought it was a good thing or a bad
:47:57. > :48:01.thing, we had a decisive row over the reemployment of certain officers
:48:01. > :48:05.in the PSNI. All of these issues continue to impact on the present
:48:05. > :48:12.and threaten the future of our institutions. We have police
:48:12. > :48:17.officers who want to invest but are encouraged or feel as if the past
:48:17. > :48:21.hangs over them. We asked some prisoners -- former prisoners to
:48:21. > :48:27.help out with the marching season. We want to invest in the future and
:48:27. > :48:35.we want these groups to pay for the past. There is also the needs of the
:48:35. > :48:40.victims. I think with the reports, we will continue to refer back to
:48:40. > :48:43.it. Do you think it'll find its way back onto the table? It has not been
:48:43. > :48:50.written off by the two parties but it has not exactly been embraced
:48:50. > :48:53.either. We have been talking about it and Stormont. Do you think we can
:48:53. > :48:57.square the circle in terms of dealing with the past, because
:48:57. > :49:04.clearly, people take very, very different views of where we are and
:49:04. > :49:09.how we got here. I think we have to give up on achieving justice for the
:49:09. > :49:17.past. We have to achieve truth for the past and move towards truth and
:49:17. > :49:20.reconciliation and go back to the reports without -- to the reports
:49:20. > :49:24.and say that, unfortunately, those things that went wrong during the
:49:24. > :49:29.Troubles, we cannot punish every single person that was guilty of
:49:29. > :49:33.that. If we did that, the peace process would collapse. The peace
:49:33. > :49:39.process and reconciliation are more important than achieving justice for
:49:39. > :49:45.past evil. So you think it is impossible -- so you think it is
:49:45. > :49:50.possible to achieve truth but not necessarily alongside justice.
:49:50. > :49:53.Is that unacceptable from your point of view? I think it is a reasonable
:49:53. > :50:02.comment, but we have to remember that there is still a lack of
:50:02. > :50:12.competence. Quite a lot of the state history is documented. There is a
:50:12. > :50:16.
:50:16. > :50:22.lot of history documented I am not so sure that the things we have in
:50:22. > :50:28.place can deal with the past. state was involved in terrorism. We
:50:28. > :50:31.can argue about this all day. I agree with Paul that street is --
:50:31. > :50:37.truth is not necessarily equal and it doesn't necessarily lead to
:50:37. > :50:41.justice or reconciliation. We have a conundrum which we can work through,
:50:41. > :50:47.but I repeat the one thing which is agreed, if that's truth, it may not
:50:47. > :50:50.help and it might make people better, but let's get the truth. We
:50:50. > :50:55.have to have some way of dealing with the other issues which are
:50:55. > :50:59.involved. You cannot wipe it out. Everybody agrees that this is what
:50:59. > :51:06.it is about. Victims, right cross the board. Therefore everybody needs
:51:06. > :51:13.to be involved and the difficulties in need to be in the sized that
:51:13. > :51:18.people are facing. -- emphasized. have to leave it there. Thank you
:51:19. > :51:25.very much. We will hear more from our commentators admit later in the
:51:25. > :51:30.programme. Now for a look at the political week in 60 seconds with
:51:30. > :51:39.Stephen Walker. The Ulster Bank announced it was
:51:39. > :51:49.cutting jobs and closing branches, much to the anger of an ballet.
:51:49. > :51:54.
:51:54. > :52:01.Employees were informed of job losses. Reassurance about drug
:52:01. > :52:03.dealers. The police will go after drug dealers. And ended the -- and
:52:03. > :52:13.investigation into how the Army treated certain situations during
:52:13. > :52:14.
:52:14. > :52:19.the Troubles. A storm and committee launched an inquiry and the minister
:52:20. > :52:24.was called to step aside. -- a Stormont committee. But Nelson has
:52:24. > :52:34.said he is staying put. I have no intention of stepping aside from
:52:34. > :52:36.
:52:36. > :52:39.doing the job that I am doing. An opening ceremony at the King's
:52:39. > :52:44.Hall in Belfast on the first of August will mark the opening of the
:52:44. > :52:48.World Police and Fire Games. It's a big international event which is
:52:48. > :52:55.held every two years. At one time it was hoped that as many 10,000
:52:55. > :52:58.athletes would compete in the Belfast games. While that figure now
:52:58. > :53:01.looks likely to be closer to 6,000, the organisers are confident the
:53:01. > :53:04.event will showcase Northern Ireland and deliver a boost to the economy.
:53:04. > :53:07.The Deputy Chief Constable, Judith Gillespie, is chair of the games and
:53:07. > :53:13.she's with me this morning. What are the latest figures you have about
:53:14. > :53:19.how many competitors there will be? Even today we have over 6100
:53:19. > :53:22.athletes formally registered, and we remain hopeful that we will get near
:53:22. > :53:26.to 7000 athletes coming over. Whilst we would say, yes, the original
:53:26. > :53:30.target was 10,000 athletes and we are likely to fall short of that, if
:53:30. > :53:34.I had said to you a couple of years ago that you would have 7000 people
:53:34. > :53:38.from 60 different countries to take part in an international sporting
:53:38. > :53:42.event in Belfast, you would have thought it was fantastic, so I feel
:53:42. > :53:46.it will still be a great opportunity for Northern Ireland. Do you think
:53:46. > :53:50.it has caught the public imagination? It is clearly very
:53:50. > :53:53.exciting for the people who are involved. But out there in the
:53:53. > :53:58.community, when you talk to people, you do not hear too many people
:53:58. > :54:03.saying that they are looking forward to the 1st of August, do you?
:54:03. > :54:07.would disagree with you on that point. Around 6000 people have
:54:07. > :54:11.volunteered to be part of the games makers on the back of a very
:54:11. > :54:17.successful London Olympics, and we are going to be using around 3600 of
:54:17. > :54:21.those people in the ten days of the games. We have exceeded our
:54:21. > :54:24.sponsorship target in a very challenging economic climate in
:54:24. > :54:28.Northern Ireland, and that is fantastic to have some companies on
:54:28. > :54:32.board who want to associate with the games, and we have people coming
:54:32. > :54:38.from 60 companies all over the world, really remote parts of the
:54:38. > :54:42.world like Mongolia and Ecuador. Many people are catching the spirit.
:54:42. > :54:49.What will be the economic benefit? The cost to the public is just under
:54:50. > :54:55.�40 million. What is the potential benefits in return for that
:54:55. > :55:01.investment? -- just under �14 million. There is the benefit for
:55:01. > :55:04.the hotels, the pubs and the venues all around Northern Ireland in which
:55:04. > :55:09.these visitors will be interested in going. It is also the legacy of the
:55:09. > :55:12.games. The relationships between our services and the community, the
:55:12. > :55:17.relationships between some of the schools and international teams, for
:55:17. > :55:22.example, we have a buddy scheme where some of our primary schools
:55:22. > :55:31.have been but eat up with some teams coming from across the world, and it
:55:31. > :55:37.will be a fantastic opportunity for the volunteer -- Olympics -- for the
:55:37. > :55:42.volunteers, who may be going on to volunteer at the Commonwealth games.
:55:42. > :55:45.But the economic benefit was talked up at the start of the process.
:55:45. > :55:53.There were huge figures bandied around for the economic benefit for
:55:53. > :55:58.Northern Ireland over a period of time in relation to the G8 summit
:55:58. > :56:04.happening. Do you think you over and the pudding at the outset? Bear in
:56:04. > :56:10.mind that the games are paid for by the athletes themselves. These are
:56:10. > :56:14.retired police officers and fire service workers who are coming to
:56:14. > :56:16.participate in these games. It is very different from the Commonwealth
:56:16. > :56:21.games and Olympic Games where there is a significant sponsorship. These
:56:21. > :56:27.people are coming out of their own money. The global recession has had
:56:27. > :56:29.an impact on the games, but bear in mind, even now, we have 6100 people
:56:29. > :56:33.who have indicated that they are coming and they have booked
:56:33. > :56:37.accommodation and they are coming, so it is going to be a great
:56:37. > :56:42.opportunity for Belfast and the whole of Northern Ireland. I am sure
:56:42. > :56:45.a lot of people would agree with you. But some people might see a
:56:45. > :56:48.difficulties in the fact that this time last year, we were looking
:56:49. > :56:51.forward to the Olympics, and that was the pinnacle of athletic
:56:51. > :56:56.achievement, said people have that fresh in their minds. They are
:56:56. > :57:00.watching Wimbledon at the moment. We know there is so much excellent
:57:00. > :57:03.sport out there. These are not professional sportsmen and women. I
:57:03. > :57:08.just wonder is there the public interest to the same extent. It is
:57:08. > :57:10.not likely, is it? It is true to say that the ethos of the World Police
:57:11. > :57:17.and Fire Games is not about world-class sport, although there
:57:17. > :57:20.are some world-class athletes who take part. We have some excellent
:57:20. > :57:27.athletes who have taken part at a national and international level.
:57:27. > :57:29.But the whole ethos of the games is about the timeliness of them --
:57:29. > :57:35.friendliness of them. I think the local people want to be involved in
:57:35. > :57:39.that. There will be links to all of the things that are going on at the
:57:39. > :57:44.same time. It is a fantastic opportunity for the local community
:57:44. > :57:47.to reengage with their local services. I cannot let you go
:57:47. > :57:51.without asking about the earlier discussion that we had today, the
:57:51. > :57:57.HET and quite what happens to it. Is it not usually embarrassing for the
:57:57. > :58:01.PSNI that an organisation that it is responsible for has been found by
:58:01. > :58:07.inspectors to be operating in a way deemed to be untenable and illegal
:58:07. > :58:11.and have misinterpreted the very law? I think the Chief Constable has
:58:11. > :58:14.dealt competently with this in the last couple of days. We have
:58:14. > :58:19.recognised the gravity of the situation. The recommendations in
:58:19. > :58:23.the report will be moving quickly to implement with the oversight of the
:58:23. > :58:27.Policing Board. This has to be viewed with the wider context of the
:58:27. > :58:31.past. If this report does nothing else but to re-energize that
:58:31. > :58:36.conversation about the wider legacy issues and how we deal with them as
:58:36. > :58:39.a society, that is very welcome. will be a very difficult
:58:39. > :58:48.conversation tomorrow between mats Baggett and Dave Cox tomorrow
:58:48. > :58:53.afternoon. And that is one that needs to take place. We need to talk
:58:53. > :58:56.about how we will re-energize the Policing Board of the longer term.
:58:56. > :59:03.It is a Constable -- conversation between the Chief Constable and the
:59:03. > :59:08.HET. I think the Chief Constable will be looking for Dave's
:59:09. > :59:13.insurances about -- assurances about the commenting these as soon as
:59:13. > :59:20.possible. Just time for a final word with our guests Steven McCaffery and
:59:20. > :59:25.Paul Gosling. Looking forward to them? It means nothing to me, I am
:59:25. > :59:35.afraid. I had never even heard of the Historical Enquires Team before.
:59:35. > :59:36.
:59:36. > :59:43.We have the -- the City of Culture is magnificent and has turned the
:59:43. > :59:46.city around, but I will not even be switching the television on for the
:59:46. > :59:56.World Police and Fire Games. It'll hopefully be part of a quiet and
:59:56. > :59:56.
:59:56. > :59:58.positive summer. The recall of the Assembly tomorrow to debate the
:59:58. > :00:02.allegations made about political interference in the running of the
:00:02. > :00:06.NI Housing Executive? I think it is going to be a very heated meeting.
:00:06. > :00:10.There has been an absence of scrutiny from the point of view of
:00:10. > :00:15.the public. There were some damning allegations brought to the table