:01:26. > :01:29.And coming up in Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland:
:01:29. > :01:32.Have local politicians left it too late to rebel against planned
:01:32. > :01:42.welfare changes? And does life experience count for anything any
:01:42. > :01:42.
:01:42. > :37:06.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2124 seconds
:37:06. > :37:08.Hello, and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. As
:37:08. > :37:11.the Tories gather for their annual conference, their planned welfare
:37:11. > :37:17.changes hit the headlines here with the DUP accusing Sinn Fein of
:37:17. > :37:21.dropping a welfare bombshell. So, how far can local changes to the
:37:21. > :37:25.proposed legislation go? Joining me to discuss this is the SDLP MP Mark
:37:26. > :37:30.Durkan. Plus, the twenty-somethings taking some of the top jobs in
:37:30. > :37:34.politics here. PR consultant Sheila Davidson and commentator Paul
:37:34. > :37:42.McFadden will be joining me with their thoughts on all of that and
:37:42. > :37:45.The Prime Minister has defended the government's plans for welfare
:37:45. > :37:48.reform as deeply progressive and thoughtful. The controversial plans
:37:48. > :37:53.will no doubt be on the agenda at the Conservative Party conference
:37:53. > :37:57.which begins today in Birmingham. Locally, Sinn Fein has infuriated
:37:57. > :38:00.the DUP by calling for this week's debate on welfare to be deferred.
:38:00. > :38:03.We'll hear from Mark Durkan very shortly on what, if anything, can
:38:03. > :38:12.be done at this late stage. But first, our Political Reporter
:38:12. > :38:15.Stephen Walker joins me now live from Birmingham.
:38:15. > :38:20.How much do you think Northern Ireland is likely to feature on the
:38:20. > :38:25.agenda? I think it will be on the agenda, not just on the conference
:38:26. > :38:30.floor, but in the meetings taking place in and around the conference.
:38:30. > :38:38.Welfare reform very much so will be on the agenda. There of a series of
:38:38. > :38:43.events happening. The new Secretary of State will be giving her speech
:38:43. > :38:47.to the conference. On Wednesday, were the have David Cameron. There
:38:47. > :38:51.are rather a whole series of French events touching on Northern Ireland.
:38:51. > :38:56.On Tuesday, there is the now infamous Ulster fried breakfast
:38:56. > :39:00.where politicians from across Northern Ireland come together.
:39:00. > :39:03.Arriving tomorrow at the conference will be families and relatives who
:39:03. > :39:09.have been campaigning for a number of years to have an inquiry into
:39:09. > :39:12.the events of 1971 when 11 people were killed. They're calling on the
:39:12. > :39:15.Prime Minister to meet them and they're calling for a full inquiry.
:39:15. > :39:20.In an interview with the Prime Minister, I asked him if he would
:39:20. > :39:24.meet the families. I would have to look at my calendar and have much
:39:24. > :39:29.time I have to do all the different things. I understand the strength
:39:29. > :39:32.of feeling. Buzz about so many cases from the deeply troubled and
:39:32. > :39:36.difficult past of Northern Ireland. That is what the historical inquiry
:39:36. > :39:40.teams are about. I will look carefully at that. I hope there
:39:40. > :39:44.will be met on spoken with Andersen to Poplar, as we have done with all
:39:44. > :39:48.these cases. How much pressure do you think
:39:48. > :39:54.David Cameron will be under this week? I think there is quite a lot
:39:54. > :39:58.of pressure on him this week. He is getting advice by the bucket load.
:39:58. > :40:01.He has been pulled in a number of directions. Modernisers want him to
:40:01. > :40:05.show that the Conservatives are passionate, they are not the party
:40:05. > :40:09.of the rich and they actually care for people and they want to see new
:40:09. > :40:12.measures to help economic matters. And then he is being pulled by the
:40:12. > :40:16.traditionalists who want him to stand firm on issues like defence,
:40:16. > :40:21.law and order in Europe. He is getting lots of advice. The other
:40:21. > :40:26.thing he will be thinking about his last week, Ed Miliband had a very
:40:27. > :40:31.successful conference. His speech was well received in the press.
:40:31. > :40:34.Particularly in the Tory press. There is a lot of issues floating
:40:34. > :40:38.around the David Cameron smiled at the moment as he is writing a
:40:38. > :40:43.speech for Wednesday. You have had an opportunity to talk to the party
:40:43. > :40:48.faithful yesterday and today. It is the mood among delegates? To be
:40:48. > :40:52.fair, they have mixed emotions. Some people come here and see it as
:40:52. > :40:57.a social event. It is there an opportunity to catch up with people
:40:57. > :41:01.and get new ideas about the election and campaigning. Other
:41:01. > :41:04.people are coming here perhaps with the sense of trepidation. The
:41:04. > :41:09.Tories are behind in the opinion polls are they want to leave
:41:09. > :41:13.conference on Wednesday galvanised and enthused. They want David
:41:13. > :41:16.Cameron to me about this road map to explain where he wants to take
:41:16. > :41:23.Britain over the next few years and they want to leave this conference
:41:23. > :41:26.feeling enthused. Thank you very much.
:41:26. > :41:29.Well, Sinn Fein has put the cat among the pigeons by calling for
:41:29. > :41:31.this week's Assembly debate on the government's controversial Welfare
:41:31. > :41:35.Reform Bill to be deferred until significant amendments are made to
:41:35. > :41:38.it. The Bill is widely seen as the biggest change since the
:41:38. > :41:40.introduction of the welfare state, and so far, the government in
:41:40. > :41:46.Westminster has resisted all attempts to water it down, despite
:41:46. > :41:49.opposition, not least from many MPs. And one of them is with me now.
:41:49. > :41:57.Mark Durkan, can this Bill be improved by Sinn Fein's call for a
:41:58. > :42:02.deferral? I am not sure about the issue of
:42:02. > :42:06.the deferral as they are talking about it. They seem to be same
:42:06. > :42:09.deferred the bill, let somebody else make changes and then that the
:42:09. > :42:12.Assembly pass it. It seems to me to make this point that the Assembly
:42:12. > :42:18.isn't actually acting as the legislative Chamber that it should
:42:18. > :42:20.be acting as. It is Sinn Fein making the mistake. Leave
:42:21. > :42:26.everything to ministers and the discussions between ministers and
:42:26. > :42:29.Whitehall. The opportunity was there early this year when the SDLP
:42:29. > :42:36.proposed that the Assembly should give the Bill pre-legislative
:42:36. > :42:40.scrutiny. That might have actually influenced some of the been in
:42:40. > :42:43.Westminster, as well. It is quite complicated for people to get their
:42:43. > :42:48.heads around. There is the idea that MPs at Westminster are
:42:48. > :42:53.grappling with the issue of on a UK-wide basis, but we have got our
:42:53. > :42:57.local people trying to legislate. Is there a power struggle between
:42:57. > :43:02.two chambers are tottering to have the final word? It is not a power
:43:02. > :43:05.struggle. You can see how it looks like that. Absolutely. There is a
:43:05. > :43:09.serious process difficulty here. The way to resolve that is to make
:43:09. > :43:12.sure that the Assembly can have its input far earlier rather than
:43:12. > :43:17.leaving the Assembly waiting to pick up the bill as passed by
:43:17. > :43:21.Westminster and just go through this exercise that we can use
:43:21. > :43:31.Durham accent, but we have to stick to the actual words that has been
:43:31. > :43:33.
:43:33. > :43:38.laid down by my tour is wrong. People wanted pre-legislative
:43:38. > :43:42.scrutiny. We have to make sure that we can have as much influence as
:43:43. > :43:48.possible. One of the reasons we wanted that was to make sure we got
:43:48. > :43:55.more discretion. There is party and I do not pretend 21 that we can
:43:55. > :44:01.likely Becker parity and nobody should. It could cost a fortune.
:44:01. > :44:06.could. A lot of people's benefits to rest on that. If we become
:44:06. > :44:11.slaves to parity at which do not give us the measures we need to
:44:11. > :44:16.have, such as in housing, the hall implications of that tax. That is
:44:16. > :44:19.wrong in any part of the UK. It becomes community and politically
:44:19. > :44:22.sensitive in Northern Ireland. If you start telling people in certain
:44:22. > :44:27.communities, you should not be in that House, you should move
:44:27. > :44:30.elsewhere, you end up with demographic, Geographic sectarian
:44:30. > :44:33.sensitivities are none of that. Whether it is in north Belfast or
:44:33. > :44:37.other places. There are particular issues here that it be thought but
:44:37. > :44:41.when it comes to whether run not these changes are wearable and
:44:41. > :44:44.bearable for the Assembly. obviously the driver as far as the
:44:44. > :44:47.Tories are concerned is to make sure that the taxpayer gets value-
:44:47. > :44:50.for-money. That means the people most in need have the most
:44:50. > :44:55.available resources available to them. If you have got a couple
:44:55. > :45:00.living in a four-bedroomed House, it might cost as -- it might not be
:45:00. > :45:03.the best use of public resources to support that. But the tax is a
:45:03. > :45:06.crude way of dealing with that, particularly if the consequence of
:45:06. > :45:10.that as well as telling social landlords in future, you will have
:45:10. > :45:13.to design your supply of housing stock according to benefit rules
:45:13. > :45:18.because there were people who cannot afford to take the housing
:45:18. > :45:22.stock that is there. It is not valid for money either for the
:45:22. > :45:26.taxpayer nor does it make sense for those who need those benefits.
:45:26. > :45:29.is one example. There are lots of other issues we can talk about.
:45:29. > :45:32.What you think happens when this issue is do you to be discussed
:45:32. > :45:37.this week? I know why you would like us to be, but we're not there.
:45:37. > :45:43.But we actually go? There are some issues around delivery where more
:45:43. > :45:47.insurance need to be given. We met with Lord fight back in February
:45:47. > :45:51.and he told us that there would be no problem to make sure that the
:45:51. > :45:56.direct payment of housing benefit could go to landlords. They would
:45:56. > :46:04.make sure that the computer system could accommodate Northern Ireland
:46:04. > :46:09.doing it differently. But those aren't parity issues. There seems
:46:09. > :46:13.to be a problem now. Of the Assembly had directly taking its
:46:13. > :46:16.hands on those issues in the spring a we wanted it to, the assurances
:46:16. > :46:20.that were given could actually have been nailed down publicly through
:46:20. > :46:24.the Assembly. Instead, we now have a situation where Iain Duncan-Smith
:46:24. > :46:28.could not assure me that the computer system he was taking
:46:28. > :46:31.charge of, and he was saying he was taking charge of the computer
:46:31. > :46:35.system, that it actually would be able to give that flexibility to
:46:35. > :46:39.Northern Ireland. Those are serious issues at the Assembly in terms of
:46:39. > :46:44.being able to get its own policies reflected still needs to get a hand
:46:44. > :46:50.on. Of deferring decisions, I do not think they should defer debate,
:46:50. > :46:55.but if deferring decisions to get more debate, if that means we can,
:46:55. > :47:05.then we should. But Sinn Fein are too late in waking up to those
:47:05. > :47:06.
:47:06. > :47:11.issues. It does not bite individual politicians, it's about the people
:47:11. > :47:14.who need the benefits. -- it is not about it.
:47:14. > :47:20.With me now are the commentator Paul McFadden and the PR consultant
:47:20. > :47:22.Sheila Davidson. Where do you think we are as far as
:47:22. > :47:32.this is concerned? You could forgive people watching for
:47:32. > :47:36.thinking it is a bit of fun and Holiness. -- a bit of a mess.
:47:36. > :47:39.the very strong feeling that the big battle in relation to this was
:47:39. > :47:44.fought out at Westminster this some time ago and all at the Assembly
:47:44. > :47:51.cannot now do is tinker at the edges. It is important in the sense
:47:51. > :47:56.that there are deportment -- important decisions. If it tinkers
:47:56. > :48:01.too much, they could be penalties. Absolutely. In terms of benefits to
:48:01. > :48:11.people, they could be problems. In terms of jobs will support servants,
:48:11. > :48:15.there could be implications. It is a serious issue. -- civil servants.
:48:15. > :48:19.They are deeply empathetic to people who could suffer as a effect
:48:19. > :48:24.of these cuts. People will suffer from that. I think she believes
:48:24. > :48:27.that essentially, the game is up. If the Assembly can sort out those
:48:27. > :48:34.things that need to be resolved at the benches and finesse that and
:48:34. > :48:41.sort that to people's satisfaction, but in terms of stopping the
:48:41. > :48:45.process, I think that is impossible. She is a regular broadcaster on the
:48:45. > :48:51.local radio. I do you stand on one of this? Can you pick your way
:48:51. > :48:55.through it? I think what is very interesting is that Mark Durkan is
:48:55. > :48:59.so eloquent in explaining best. Parliament is actually still
:48:59. > :49:03.prevalent in this. I took the opportunity to take a look at the
:49:03. > :49:07.act as it was going through and it is so open to interpretation on a
:49:07. > :49:11.local level but in fact, the ability it for people on the ground
:49:11. > :49:16.to to actually make this work properly for individuals here, is
:49:16. > :49:22.actually quite why it in my reading of it. I think that the politics
:49:22. > :49:26.around on of this is important and how it applies is important, but it
:49:26. > :49:31.is how it is delivered on the ground that is most important. So
:49:31. > :49:34.much is devolved down to ordinary people in benefits offices,
:49:34. > :49:38.Jobcentres and how they do with people on a one-to-one basis. That
:49:38. > :49:42.is what actually matters to ordinary people on the ground, not
:49:42. > :49:46.what is happening in Parliament or the Assembly, which they do not
:49:46. > :49:49.understand. But they understand is when the walking to a JobCentre,
:49:49. > :49:53.how are they being dealt with and how was that being applied to them.
:49:53. > :50:00.The resources it needs to be put into this is into proper training
:50:00. > :50:03.and proper delivery to people on the ground. To what extent can the
:50:03. > :50:09.politicians leave the party politics out of it and focus on the
:50:09. > :50:13.issues that Sheila Davidson has just talked about? The fact is, it
:50:13. > :50:18.does have to boil down to what does this matter to people? Does not to
:50:18. > :50:22.get the credit, it is to get the benefit. What is this do? What the
:50:22. > :50:27.changes make? Average age -- thereof a couple of positive
:50:27. > :50:31.aspects. But there are other very difficult aspect. But the Assembly
:50:31. > :50:35.needs to remember, when it is passing the legislation, is the way
:50:35. > :50:39.in which that Bill passed Westminster was Eric open. A lot of
:50:39. > :50:47.the things that were not detailed in the Bill were not left to local
:50:47. > :50:51.discretion. They were left to be continuing regulation by ministers.
:50:51. > :50:57.On a party issue, if the Assembly simple goes -- simply goes along
:50:57. > :51:01.with this, if they have to change this without going back to
:51:01. > :51:05.Parliament again, local ministers will say, you have to take that by
:51:05. > :51:12.way of parity. The Assembly need to exercise its better chance to have
:51:12. > :51:15.an influence on this. Unfortunately, that did not happen.
:51:15. > :51:18.You may well have a view on this next report, because the age
:51:18. > :51:22.profile of those walking the corridors of power here is getting
:51:22. > :51:25.lower and lower. Stormont now has the youngest parliamentarian in the
:51:25. > :51:28.UK or Ireland, Sinn Fein's Megan Fearon, who's 21. While the new
:51:28. > :51:38.Lord Mayor of Belfast, Gavin Robinson, is a mere 27. Chris Page
:51:38. > :51:49.
:51:49. > :51:53.Politics here has had a drink from the fountain of youth. The young
:51:53. > :51:57.people are taking some top jobs. Just a few months ago, a student
:51:57. > :52:03.called Megan Fearon was sitting her finals here at Queen's University.
:52:03. > :52:07.Since then, she has gone from studying politics to being a fully-
:52:07. > :52:12.fledged politician. The is an obvious link between school
:52:12. > :52:19.attendance and deprivation. At the age of 21, she has swapped lectures
:52:19. > :52:26.for legislation. We definitely need more women and more young people in
:52:26. > :52:36.politics. I could not be an advocate for that and not attempt
:52:36. > :52:37.
:52:37. > :52:41.to break the glass ceiling. Gavin Robinson, DUP's choice to
:52:41. > :52:46.lead the council. He is 27. The Lord Mayor thinks jobs do not get
:52:46. > :52:49.much better than his present one. You try to do your bit to help
:52:49. > :52:53.people and it is a very satisfying part of my life where you do get to
:52:53. > :52:59.engage with people. Being actively involved and trying to assist where
:52:59. > :53:03.you can, provide solutions, it is very rewarding. But would more
:53:03. > :53:06.senior people consider casting their vote for someone a lot
:53:06. > :53:12.younger question at a thing for a young man in their late twenties,
:53:12. > :53:17.he does not have enough experience in life. I think some are too young.
:53:17. > :53:23.If they have the experience, they could do it. But I doubt it.
:53:23. > :53:26.Megan Fearon Gavin Robinson think their voices are fallible. I do not
:53:26. > :53:30.think Mike life experience is any less valid than anyone else's
:53:30. > :53:36.because it is shorter. Everyone lives -- everyone looks different
:53:36. > :53:39.lives. I may only be 27. They may not have been on the earth as long
:53:39. > :53:45.as others, but I would like to think that my view is as important
:53:45. > :53:48.and equal as someone else who might have more experience. They are
:53:48. > :53:54.passionate about promoting young people's interest in the places of
:53:54. > :54:01.power. Answer a mere lifetime in the political limelight late lay
:54:01. > :54:03.Sheila and Paul are still with me. So, how do you feel about these
:54:03. > :54:08.newbies making such a splash in the local political pond?
:54:08. > :54:14.I am very enthusiastic about it. By the look the more young people get
:54:14. > :54:16.involved in politics, the better. - - I think. I think the editor of
:54:17. > :54:21.parachuting into a place in the Assembly is interesting. I would
:54:21. > :54:25.like to see more young people going through local council and earning
:54:25. > :54:28.Vespers before they jump straight into a legislative place. There is
:54:28. > :54:32.absolutely a place for him, but I think there is a wider aspect here,
:54:32. > :54:38.as well. That is the nature of the and people coming forward. I am
:54:38. > :54:40.very supportive through my working of graduates coming forward, but I
:54:40. > :54:44.actually think the political parties could be doing a lot more
:54:44. > :54:50.to engage with young people that are not in a crutch what kind of
:54:50. > :54:52.politically aware frame of mind and bring a very young people, the ones
:54:52. > :54:57.that are creating more problems on the streets here, into politics and
:54:57. > :55:01.given them an opportunity. There is a balance fundamentally to be
:55:02. > :55:05.struck between youth and experience. It will be interesting to see. We
:55:05. > :55:08.have had the example of a couple of very competent and people who are
:55:08. > :55:13.fairly new to politics, but I wonder to what extent they will be
:55:13. > :55:21.allowed to make their own stamp on politics here. We have seen in the
:55:21. > :55:27.very recent past when one of the major parties was allowed to lead a
:55:27. > :55:30.senior party... Whether these and people would be allowed to really
:55:30. > :55:33.make them ask in politics, it will be interesting to see. It will be
:55:33. > :55:37.interesting to see whether the profile we see received, whether
:55:37. > :55:41.that will mean that more young people turn out and out and become
:55:41. > :55:45.actively involved in politics. I would be a great success.
:55:45. > :55:48.Let's pause for a moment to reflect on disunity in the UUP and yet more
:55:48. > :55:58.traffic gridlock. Martina Purdy looks back at the political week in
:55:58. > :56:04.
:56:04. > :56:09.His speech on Unionist unity left Ulster Unionists and running again.
:56:09. > :56:15.John McAllister was sacked as Deputy Leader. He took the sunshine
:56:15. > :56:21.into unity as an attack on him. political power caught the decision
:56:21. > :56:26.of brittle. He was not in the room. John McAllister was. He put out a
:56:26. > :56:30.statement. Not everyone in the Assembly was united on the issue of
:56:30. > :56:34.gay marriage. There were tensions for some political partnerships.
:56:34. > :56:40.Traffic chaos in Belfast left the regional development apartment in a
:56:40. > :56:50.jam. Is it time to say sorry? are willing to play a rule, but the
:56:50. > :56:54.back stops with them. At the chance encounter led to a new recruit.
:56:54. > :57:04.Martin McGuinness had a chuckle at the Ulster Unionists expense.
:57:04. > :57:09.
:57:09. > :57:13.Ulster Unionist Party could be You mentioned -- you mentioned the
:57:13. > :57:16.Ulster Unionist Party, but what about the sacking and the
:57:16. > :57:23.justification for giving the speech when he appeared on the evil on
:57:24. > :57:27.Thursday night? He would say he is and has to have -- and that he has
:57:27. > :57:32.done nothing that deviates from party policy. I think the who thing
:57:33. > :57:37.is a car crash from the point of view of watching UUP almost to
:57:37. > :57:42.implode. He is a tremendous loss. You wonder how long he will remain
:57:42. > :57:45.in the party. There was speculation and one of the parked -- papers of
:57:45. > :57:52.are the people leaving the party and baby setting up on its own. It
:57:53. > :57:56.is quite disastrous. He spoke about trying to attract some of the
:57:56. > :58:01.people who do not vote in Northern Ireland. A think this is quite
:58:01. > :58:07.disastrous. Do you agree? You think they have got this wrong question
:58:07. > :58:09.at the iron fist on form as the greatest advocate, particularly in
:58:10. > :58:14.political parties about collective responsibility. How ever, in
:58:14. > :58:18.politics, you have to be able to have your own fair. You have to be
:58:18. > :58:21.honest and be able to express a view. John McAllister had a very
:58:21. > :58:25.real fame and should have been allowed to do it. He did it in a
:58:25. > :58:30.constructive way and a way that he was able to make his point, not be
:58:30. > :58:35.critical overly, but actually, have that six. And I think that actually
:58:35. > :58:39.was very good for UUP. I think the mistake he made was to come in too
:58:39. > :58:43.hard on something and make it look like he is totally unreasonable and
:58:43. > :58:51.drain -- ruling with a what of iron and trying to be strong in an area
:58:51. > :58:58.where he could have showed a more attitude. What about the rule from
:58:58. > :59:04.independence to you care? Were you surprised, bemused, intrigued by
:59:04. > :59:14.any of that? One of the above to an extent. I wonder long term would be.
:59:14. > :59:15.
:59:15. > :59:22.Will be. Want impact it will make. -- what impact it will make. Long
:59:22. > :59:24.term, I wonder what future there is a net for the party here. But and
:59:24. > :59:27.the other issue we need to talk about his traffic gridlock.
:59:27. > :59:36.Everybody seems to be talking about that before the talk about anything
:59:36. > :59:40.else. I sat in an hour-long traffic jam to go to a business meeting the
:59:40. > :59:45.other morning. I was not happy. Let's see how this pans out. I'm
:59:45. > :59:49.sure that we will all lent go somewhere else. The answer is to go
:59:49. > :59:52.and move elsewhere. I had no problem getting here. We had