:00:39. > :00:47.morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. Rising flood water,
:00:48. > :00:51.a battered coastline, the winter storms forced the Government to take
:00:52. > :00:56.control. Is it hanging the Environment Agency out to dry?
:00:57. > :01:00.Embarrassment for the Government is the Immigration Minister resigns
:01:01. > :01:05.after he discovered he was employing a cleaner with no right to work here
:01:06. > :01:10.for seven years. Ed Miliband promised an end to what he called
:01:11. > :01:13.the machine politics of union fixes in the Labour Party,
:01:14. > :01:18.And coming up here. We report from Sinn Fein's ard fheis in Wexford and
:01:19. > :01:22.speak to party President, Gerry Adams. I'll also be talking to the
:01:23. > :01:23.Shadow Secretary of State, Ivan Lewis. Join me in half an hour.
:01:24. > :01:27.In London after two days of disruption in the capital the Mayor
:01:28. > :01:37.Boris Johnson will be talking to ask about strife on the Underground. All
:01:38. > :01:42.of that and after a week of very public coalition spats can David
:01:43. > :01:47.Cameron and Nick Clegg keep the coalition show on the road? Two
:01:48. > :01:53.senior party figures will go head to head. And with me, Helen Lewis, Nick
:01:54. > :01:57.Watt and Iain Martin who would not know they Somerset Levels from their
:01:58. > :02:02.Norfolk Broads, but that will not stop them tweeting their thoughts.
:02:03. > :02:08.We start with the strange Case of the Immigration Minister, his
:02:09. > :02:13.cleaner and some lost documents. Yesterday Mark Harper tendered his
:02:14. > :02:16.resignation, telling the media he had discovered the cleaner who
:02:17. > :02:20.worked for him for seven years did not have the right to work in the
:02:21. > :02:25.UK. The Communities Secretary Eric Pickles said he had done the
:02:26. > :02:30.honourable thing. I was sad to see him go, he was a strong minister.
:02:31. > :02:37.Had he been a member of the public he would not have done anything
:02:38. > :02:41.wrong, but he set himself a very high standard and he felt that
:02:42. > :02:46.standard and honourably stood down. This would seem like a good
:02:47. > :02:50.resignation, maybe unlike the Baroness Scotland one years ago on a
:02:51. > :02:57.similar issue, but have we been told the full story? We wait to see that.
:02:58. > :03:02.Labour have picked up saying he is an honourable man, that the reason
:03:03. > :03:07.why he resigned is these very owners checks that landlords and employers
:03:08. > :03:13.will have to perform on employees over their documentation. The most
:03:14. > :03:17.interesting line is that, we do not require them to be experts or spot
:03:18. > :03:23.anything other than an obvious forgery. The suggestion that there
:03:24. > :03:29.is the document he was presented with originality, which he lost, was
:03:30. > :03:34.on home office paper and was perhaps not entirely accurate. That is the
:03:35. > :03:38.embarrassment. He is the minister putting through a bill that will
:03:39. > :03:44.demand tougher checks on people and he himself did not do enough checks
:03:45. > :03:47.to discover she was illegal. There is an odd bit where he involves the
:03:48. > :03:53.home office later to check her out as well. He writes a resignation
:03:54. > :03:59.letter and he has to hold himself to pay higher standard. He has done the
:04:00. > :04:03.David Laws approach to this, resign quickly and he can come back. David
:04:04. > :04:12.Cameron wants him to return swiftly to the frontbenchers. He is a state
:04:13. > :04:20.school educated lad. He is the kind of Tory that the Tories are in short
:04:21. > :04:24.supply of. He is a rising star. I would caution on this idea that it
:04:25. > :04:30.is customary that whenever anyone resigns, it is always thought they
:04:31. > :04:36.will come straight back into office. If only the outside world worked
:04:37. > :04:40.like that. It is not, in a company if the HR person resigns, he is such
:04:41. > :04:47.a great chap he will be back next week. There is a silver lining for
:04:48. > :04:53.David Cameron is he has been able to move Harriet Bond up as he moves
:04:54. > :05:01.everyone up. But nobody will see her in the whips office because she is
:05:02. > :05:06.not allowed to appear on television. And if you three want to resign? Do
:05:07. > :05:13.not hate you are coming back next week. But we will do it with honour.
:05:14. > :05:18.It has been a hellish week for residents of coastal areas with more
:05:19. > :05:21.storms bringing more flooding and after Prince Charles visited the
:05:22. > :05:25.Somerset Levels on Tuesday the Government has been keen to show it
:05:26. > :05:32.has got a grip on the situation at last.
:05:33. > :05:37.For last weekend's Sunday Politics I made the watery journey to the
:05:38. > :05:43.village of Muchelney, cut off for a whole month. Now everyone has been
:05:44. > :05:50.dropping in. First it was Prince Charles on a park bench pulled by a
:05:51. > :06:02.tractor. He waded into the row about how the floods have been handled.
:06:03. > :06:08.Next it was the chair of the Environment Agency, Lord Smith, who
:06:09. > :06:14.faced angry residents. Sought the river is out. That is precisely what
:06:15. > :06:19.we are going to do. Where he faced, a resident, he did not need that
:06:20. > :06:25.many. David Cameron went for a look as well and gave the region what it
:06:26. > :06:30.wanted, more pumps, more money and in the long-term the return of
:06:31. > :06:35.dredging. There are lessons to learn. The pause in bridging that
:06:36. > :06:39.took place from the late 1990s was wrong and we need to get dredging
:06:40. > :06:44.again. When the water levels come down and it is safe to dredge, we
:06:45. > :06:51.will dredging to make sure these rivers and stitches can carry a
:06:52. > :06:55.better capacity. The Environment Secretary Owen Paterson has not been
:06:56. > :06:59.seen again because he is recovering from emergency eye surgery. In the
:07:00. > :07:07.meantime the floodwaters rose ever higher. Some residents were told to
:07:08. > :07:12.evacuate. In Devon the railway was washed away by the waves leaving a
:07:13. > :07:16.big gap in the network. Look at the weather this weekend. If you can
:07:17. > :07:21.believe it, the storms keep rolling in. What is the long-term solution
:07:22. > :07:27.for flood prone areas of the country? I am joined from Oxford by
:07:28. > :07:34.the editor of The Ecologist magazine, Oliver Tickell, and by
:07:35. > :07:40.local MP Tessa Munt. Tessa, let me come to you first. What do you now
:07:41. > :07:46.want the Government to do? I want it to make sure it does exactly as it
:07:47. > :07:48.promises and delivers what every farmer and landowner around here
:07:49. > :07:54.knows should have been done for years. First, to solve the problems
:07:55. > :07:58.we have right now, but to make sure there is money in the bank for us to
:07:59. > :08:06.carry on doing the maintenance that is necessary. Was it a mistake not
:08:07. > :08:10.to do the dredging? When the waters start to subside does dredging
:08:11. > :08:18.become a key part of this? Yes, of course. It is something the farmers
:08:19. > :08:23.have been asking for four years. When you wander along a footpath by
:08:24. > :08:30.a river and you see trees growing and there is 60% of the capacity
:08:31. > :08:35.only because there is silt, it needs to have a pretty dramatic action
:08:36. > :08:41.right now and then we need to make sure the maintenance is ongoing.
:08:42. > :08:48.Oliver Tickell, was it a mistake to stop the dredging? If the dredging
:08:49. > :08:53.had happened, the land would not be covered in water for so long?
:08:54. > :08:59.Clearly it is necessary to do at least some dredging on these rivers
:09:00. > :09:03.and in particular because these rivers are well above ground level.
:09:04. > :09:09.They are carrying water that comes down off the hills well above the
:09:10. > :09:15.level of the flood plain on the Somerset Levels. They naturally tend
:09:16. > :09:21.to silt up. But the key thing is that is only a small part of the
:09:22. > :09:26.overall solution. What we need is a catchment wide approach to improve
:09:27. > :09:31.infiltration upstream and you also need to manage the flood plain on
:09:32. > :09:38.the levels and upstream so as to have active flood plain that can
:09:39. > :09:42.store water. This idea it is just about dredging is erroneous.
:09:43. > :09:49.Dredging is a part of it, but it is a catchment wide solution. Dredging
:09:50. > :09:56.is only a small part of the solution he says. Yes, of course it is. But
:09:57. > :10:01.look here. With the farmer is locally, the landowners, they know
:10:02. > :10:06.this land will carry water for a few weeks of the year, that is not a
:10:07. > :10:11.problem. But this water has to be taken away and there is a very good
:10:12. > :10:15.system of drainage and it works perfectly well. In my area there are
:10:16. > :10:20.serious problems because the dredging has not taken place. There
:10:21. > :10:27.are lunatic regulations around were when they do do some of dredging,
:10:28. > :10:32.the Environment Agency is asked to take it away because it is
:10:33. > :10:37.considered toxic waste. This is barmy. We need to take the stuff out
:10:38. > :10:43.of the rivers and build the banks up so we create protection in the
:10:44. > :10:48.future. We have to make sure the dredging is done but make sure the
:10:49. > :10:55.drainage works well and we have pumps in places and we have
:10:56. > :11:02.floodgates put onto the rivers. We need to make sure repairs are done
:11:03. > :11:07.more quickly. All right, let me go back to Oliver Tickell. Is it not
:11:08. > :11:11.the case a lot of people on your side of the argument would like to
:11:12. > :11:17.see lands like the Somerset Levels return to natural habitat? Looe I
:11:18. > :11:22.would like a degree of that, but that does not mean the whole place
:11:23. > :11:30.needs to turn into wilderness so it will remain agricultural landscape.
:11:31. > :11:37.Everybody, all the interested parties who signed up to a document
:11:38. > :11:41.called vision 2034 the Somerset Levels envisages most of the area of
:11:42. > :11:46.the Somerset Levels being turned over to extensive grassland and that
:11:47. > :11:53.is what it is best suited for. Let me put that to Tessa Munt. Have you
:11:54. > :12:01.signed up to this where you will end up with extensive grassland? I have
:12:02. > :12:07.seen it, but grass does not grow if water is sitting on this land for
:12:08. > :12:12.weeks and weeks. What you have to remember is a lot of the levels are
:12:13. > :12:15.managed very carefully and they are conservation land and that means
:12:16. > :12:22.cattle are allowed to go out at certain times of the year and in
:12:23. > :12:31.certain numbers. It is well managed. Do you accept it should return to
:12:32. > :12:35.grassland? Grassland, fine, but you cannot call land grassland in the
:12:36. > :12:40.flipping water is on it so long that nothing grows. It is no good at
:12:41. > :12:46.doing that. You have got to make sure it is managed properly.
:12:47. > :12:52.Drainage has been taking place on this land for centuries. It is the
:12:53. > :12:56.case the system is there, but it needs to be maintained properly and
:12:57. > :13:01.we have to have fewer ridiculous regulations that stop action. Last
:13:02. > :13:06.year the flooding minister agreed dredging should take place and
:13:07. > :13:10.everything stopped. Now we have got the promise from the Prime Minister
:13:11. > :13:14.and I thank Prince Charles for that. Is it not time to let the local
:13:15. > :13:18.people run their land rather than being told what to do by the
:13:19. > :13:25.Environment Agency, central Government and the European Union?
:13:26. > :13:31.The internal drainage boards have considerable power in all of this.
:13:32. > :13:35.They wanted to dredge and they were not allowed to. The farmers want to
:13:36. > :13:42.dredge that is what is going to happen, but they have signed up to a
:13:43. > :13:46.comprehensive vision of catchment management and of environmental
:13:47. > :13:52.improvement turning the Somerset Levels into a world-class haven for
:13:53. > :13:57.wildlife. It is not much good if your house is underwater. The
:13:58. > :14:02.farmers themselves, the RSPB, the drainage boards, they have all
:14:03. > :14:07.signed up to this. The real question now is how do we implement that
:14:08. > :14:15.vision? You give the money to the drainage boards. At the moment they
:14:16. > :14:20.pay 27% of their money and have been doing so for years and years and
:14:21. > :14:24.this is farmers' money and it has been going to the drainage boards
:14:25. > :14:29.and they pay the Environment Agency who are meant to be dredging and
:14:30. > :14:33.that has not happened. We have to leave it there. We have run out of
:14:34. > :14:37.time. Last week saw the Labour Party
:14:38. > :14:41.adopts an historic change with its relationship with the unions.
:14:42. > :14:47.Changes to the rules that propelled Ed Miliband to the top. Ed Miliband
:14:48. > :14:52.was elected Labour leader in 2010 by the electoral college system which
:14:53. > :14:56.gives unions, party members and MPs one third of votes each. This would
:14:57. > :15:02.be changed into a simpler one member, one vote system. A union
:15:03. > :15:07.member would have to become an affiliated member of the party. They
:15:08. > :15:15.would have to opt in and pay ?3 a year. But the unions would have 50%
:15:16. > :15:20.of the vote at the conference and around one third of the seats on the
:15:21. > :15:24.National executive committee. The proposals are a financial gamble as
:15:25. > :15:29.well. It is estimated the party could face a drop in funding of up
:15:30. > :15:34.to ?5 million a year when the changes are fully implemented in
:15:35. > :15:38.five years. The leader of the Unite trade union has welcomed the report
:15:39. > :15:46.saying it is music to his ears. The package will be voted on at a
:15:47. > :15:49.special one of conference in March. And the Shadow Business Secretary
:15:50. > :15:58.Chuka Umunna joins me now for the Sunday Interview. Welcome back. In
:15:59. > :16:02.what way will the unions have less power and influence in the Labour
:16:03. > :16:07.Party? This is about ensuring individual trade union members have
:16:08. > :16:12.a direct relationship with the Labour Party. At the moment the
:16:13. > :16:17.monies that come to us are decided at a top level, the general
:16:18. > :16:22.secretaries determine this, whether the individual members want us to be
:16:23. > :16:27.in receipt of those monies or not so we are going to change that so that
:16:28. > :16:31.affiliation fees follow the consent of individual members. Secondly, we
:16:32. > :16:39.want to make sure the individual trade union members, people who
:16:40. > :16:48.teach our children, power via -- fantastic British businesses, we
:16:49. > :16:52.want them to make an active choice, and we are also recognising that in
:16:53. > :17:01.this day and age not everybody wants to become a member of a political
:17:02. > :17:06.party. We haven't got much time. The unions still have 50% of the vote at
:17:07. > :17:22.Labour conferences, there will be the single most important vote, more
:17:23. > :17:33.member -- union members will vote than nonunion members, their power
:17:34. > :17:42.has not diminished at all, has it? In relation to the other parts of
:17:43. > :17:45.the group of people who will be voting in a future leadership
:17:46. > :17:50.contest, we are seeking to move towards more of a one member, one
:17:51. > :17:57.vote process. At the moment we have the absurd situation where I, as a
:17:58. > :18:05.member of Parliament, my vote will count for 1000. MPs are losing...
:18:06. > :18:12.They still have a lot of power. I am a member of the GMB union and the
:18:13. > :18:17.Unite union, also a member of the Fabians as well so I get free votes
:18:18. > :18:20.on top of my vote as a member of Parliament. We are moving to a
:18:21. > :18:26.system where I will have one vote and that is an important part of
:18:27. > :18:30.this. You asked how many people would be casting their votes. The
:18:31. > :18:37.old system, up to 2.8 million ballot papers were sent out with prepaid
:18:38. > :18:46.envelopes for people to return their papers were sent out with prepaid
:18:47. > :18:52.turnout. The idea that you are going to see a big change... Even if
:18:53. > :19:04.your individual party members. In one vital way, your purse strings,
:19:05. > :19:06.your individual party members. In the unions will be more powerful
:19:07. > :19:16.than ever because at the moment they have to hand over 8 million to
:19:17. > :19:18.than ever because at the moment they fraction of that now. They will get
:19:19. > :19:28.to keep that money, but then come the election you go to them and give
:19:29. > :19:36.them a lot of money -- and they will have you then. They won't have us,
:19:37. > :19:40.as you put it! The idea that individual trade union members don't
:19:41. > :19:44.have their own view, their own voice, and just do what their
:19:45. > :19:48.general secretaries do is absurd. They will make their own decision,
:19:49. > :19:55.and we want them to make that and not have their leadership decide
:19:56. > :20:00.that for them. Let me go to the money. The Labour Party manifesto
:20:01. > :20:06.will be reflecting the interests of Britain, and the idea that somehow
:20:07. > :20:11.people can say we are not going to give you this money unless you do
:20:12. > :20:14.this or that, we will give you a policy agenda which is appropriate
:20:15. > :20:20.for the British people, regardless of what implications that may have
:20:21. > :20:25.financially. They will have more seats than anybody else in the NEC
:20:26. > :20:31.and they will hold the purse strings. They will be the
:20:32. > :20:35.determining factor. They won't be. Unite is advocating a 70% rate of
:20:36. > :20:44.income tax, there is no way we will have that in our manifesto. Unite is
:20:45. > :20:57.advocating taking back contracts and no compensation basis, we would not
:20:58. > :21:07.-- there is no way we would do that. How many chief executives of the
:21:08. > :21:15.FTSE 100 are backing Labour? We have lots of chief executives backing
:21:16. > :21:19.Labour. I don't know the exact number. Ed Miliband has just placed
:21:20. > :21:31.an important business person in the House of Lords, the former chief
:21:32. > :21:39.executive of the ITV, Bill Grimsey. How many? You can only name one?
:21:40. > :21:45.Bill Grimsey, there is also John Mills. Anyone who is currently
:21:46. > :21:50.chairman of the chief executive? With the greatest respect, you are
:21:51. > :21:55.talking about less than half the percent of business leaders in our
:21:56. > :22:01.country, we have almost 5 million businesses, not all FTSE 100
:22:02. > :22:07.businesses, not all listed, and we are trying to get people from across
:22:08. > :22:22.the country of all different shapes and sizes. Let's widen it to the
:22:23. > :22:28.FTSE 250. That is 250 out of 5 million companies. The largest ones,
:22:29. > :22:33.they make the profits and provide the jobs. Two thirds of private
:22:34. > :22:37.sector jobs in this country come from small and medium-sized
:22:38. > :22:40.businesses, and small and medium-sized businesses are an
:22:41. > :22:51.important part of a large companies supply chains. So you cannot name a
:22:52. > :22:58.single chairman from the FTSE 250, correct? I don't know all the
:22:59. > :23:09.chairman. Are you going to fight the next election without a single boss
:23:10. > :23:12.of a FTSE 250 company? I have named some important business people, but
:23:13. > :23:22.the most important thing is that we are not coming out with a manifesto
:23:23. > :23:33.for particular interests, but for broader interest. Let me show you,
:23:34. > :23:46.Digby Jones says Labour's policy is, "if it creates wealth, let's kick
:23:47. > :23:53.it" . Another quote, that it borders on predatory taxation. They think
:23:54. > :23:59.you are anti-business. I don't agree with them. One of the interesting
:24:00. > :24:03.things about Sir Stuart's comments on the predatory taxation and I
:24:04. > :24:07.think he was referring to the 50p rate of tax is that he made some
:24:08. > :24:14.comments arguing against the reduction of the top rate of tax
:24:15. > :24:17.from 50p. He is saying something different now. Digby of course has
:24:18. > :24:23.his own opinions, he has never been a member of the Labour Party. Let me
:24:24. > :24:27.come onto this business of the top rate of tax, do you accept or don't
:24:28. > :24:32.you that there is a point when higher rates of income tax become
:24:33. > :24:38.counter-productive? Ultimately you want to have the lowest tax rates
:24:39. > :24:44.possible. Do you accept there is a certain level you actually get less
:24:45. > :24:50.money? I think ultimately there is a level beyond you could go which
:24:51. > :24:54.would be counter-productive, for example the 75% rate of tax I
:24:55. > :25:07.mentioned earlier, being advocated by Unite in France. Most French
:25:08. > :25:15.higher earners will pay less tax than under your plans. I beg your
:25:16. > :25:22.pardon, with the 50p? Under your proposals, people here will pay more
:25:23. > :25:27.tax than French higher earners. If you are asking if in terms of the
:25:28. > :25:34.level, you asked the question and I answered it, do I think if you reach
:25:35. > :25:38.a level beyond which the tax burden becomes counter-productive, can I
:25:39. > :25:42.give you a number what that would be, I cannot but let me explain -
:25:43. > :25:49.the reason we have sought to increase its two 50p is that we can
:25:50. > :25:53.get in revenue to reduce the deficit. In an ideal world you
:25:54. > :25:57.wouldn't need a 50p rate of tax which is why during our time in
:25:58. > :26:07.office we didn't have one, because we didn't have those issues. Sure,
:26:08. > :26:13.though you cannot tell me how much the 50p will raise. In the three
:26:14. > :26:22.years of operation we think it raised ?10 billion. You think. That
:26:23. > :26:26.was based on extrapolation from the British library. It is at least
:26:27. > :26:32.possible I would suggest, for the sake of argument, that when you
:26:33. > :26:39.promise to take over half people's income, which is what you will do if
:26:40. > :26:49.you get your way, the richest 1% currently account for 70 5% of all
:26:50. > :26:56.tax revenues. -- 75%. Is it not a danger that if you take more out of
:26:57. > :27:06.them, they will just go? I don't think so, we are talking about the
:27:07. > :27:08.top 1% here. If you look at the directors of sub 5 million turnover
:27:09. > :27:23.companies, the average managing director of that gets around
:27:24. > :27:33.?87,000. Let me narrow it down to something else. Let's take the 0.1%
:27:34. > :27:38.of top taxpayers, down to fewer than 30,000 people. They account for over
:27:39. > :27:43.14% of all of the income tax revenues. Only 29,000 people. If
:27:44. > :27:50.they go because you are going to take over half their income, you
:27:51. > :27:57.have lost a huge chunk of your tax base. They could easily go, at
:27:58. > :28:02.tipping point they could go. What we are advocating here is not
:28:03. > :28:06.controversial. Those with the broadest shoulders, it is not
:28:07. > :28:16.unreasonable to ask them to share the heavier burden. Can you name one
:28:17. > :28:24.other major economy that subscribes to this? Across Europe, for example
:28:25. > :28:31.in Sweden they have higher tax rates than us. Can you name one major
:28:32. > :28:37.economy? I couldn't pluck one out of the air, I can see where you are
:28:38. > :28:42.coming from, I don't agree with it. I think most people subscribe to the
:28:43. > :28:49.fact that those with wider shoulders should carry the heavy a burden. We
:28:50. > :28:53.have run out of time but thank you for being here.
:28:54. > :28:58.Over the past week it seems that Nick Clegg has activated a new Lib
:28:59. > :29:00.Dem strategy - 'Get Gove'. After a very public spat over who should
:29:01. > :29:03.head up the schools inspection service Ofsted, Lib Dem sources have
:29:04. > :29:06.continued to needle away at the Education Secretary. And other
:29:07. > :29:30.senior Lib Dems have also taken aim at their coalition partners. Here's
:29:31. > :29:33.Giles Dilnot. It's unlikely the polite welcome of these school
:29:34. > :29:36.children to Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg and his party colleague
:29:37. > :29:38.schools minister David Laws would be so forthcoming right now from the
:29:39. > :29:41.man in charge of schools Conservative Michael Gove. Mr Laws
:29:42. > :29:44.is said to have been furious with The Education secretary over the
:29:45. > :29:48.decision to remove Sally Morgan as chair of Ofsted. But those who know
:29:49. > :29:50.the inner working of the Lib Dems say that's just understandable. When
:29:51. > :29:53.you have the department not being consulted, it would be possible for
:29:54. > :29:56.him to not publicly comment. The remarkable thing would be if he
:29:57. > :30:07.hadn't said anything at all. We should be careful to understand this
:30:08. > :30:18.is not always part of a preplanned decision. There is a growing sense
:30:19. > :30:21.that inside Number Ten this is a concerted Lib Dem strategy, we also
:30:22. > :30:25.understand there is no love lost between Nick Clegg and Michael Gove
:30:26. > :30:31.to say the least, and a growing frustration that if the Lib Dems
:30:32. > :30:34.think such so-called yellow and blue attacks can help them with the
:30:35. > :30:42.election, they can also damage the long-term prospects of the Coalition
:30:43. > :30:45.post 2015. One spat does not a divorce make but perhaps even more
:30:46. > :30:47.significant has been Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander's
:30:48. > :30:50.recent newspaper interview firmly spiking any room for George Osborne
:30:51. > :30:53.to manoeuvre on lowering the highest income tax rate to 40p. All this
:30:54. > :30:56.builds on the inclusion in Government at the reshuffle of
:30:57. > :30:59.people like Norman Baker at the Home Office and Simon Hughes at Justice
:31:00. > :31:01.people who are happier to publically express doubt on Conservative
:31:02. > :31:15.policy, unlike say Jeremy Browne who was removed and who has made plain
:31:16. > :31:19.his views on Coalition. It is difficult for us to demonstrate that
:31:20. > :31:27.we are more socialist than an Ed Miliband Labour led party. Even if
:31:28. > :31:33.we did wish to demonstrate it, doing it in coalition with the
:31:34. > :31:37.Conservatives would be harder still. Nonetheless a differentiation
:31:38. > :31:43.strategy was always likely as 2015 approached, so is there evidence it
:31:44. > :31:47.works? Or of the work we publish shows the Lib Dems have a huge
:31:48. > :31:53.problem in terms of their distinctiveness, so attacking their
:31:54. > :31:55.coalition partners or the Labour Party is helpful in showing what
:31:56. > :32:01.they are against, but there are bigger problem is showing what they
:32:02. > :32:06.are for. And one Conservative MP with access to Number Ten as part of
:32:07. > :32:12.the PM's policy board says yellow on blue attacks are misplaced and
:32:13. > :32:16.irresponsible. At this stage when all the hard work is being done and
:32:17. > :32:25.the country is back on its feet, the Lib Dems are choosing the time to
:32:26. > :32:29.step away from the coalition. That is your position, but do you suspect
:32:30. > :32:35.coming up to the next election we will see more of this? I think the
:32:36. > :32:41.Lib Dems are about as hard to pin down as a weasel in Vaseline. And
:32:42. > :32:44.with the public's view of politicians right now, and wants to
:32:45. > :32:51.be seen as slicker than a well oiled weasel? And we have Lib Dem peer
:32:52. > :33:01.Matthew Oakeshott and senior Conservative backbencher Bernard
:33:02. > :33:05.Jenkin. Matthew, the Lib Dems are now picking fights with the Tories
:33:06. > :33:11.on a range of issues, some of them trivial. Is this a Pirelli used to
:33:12. > :33:18.Lib Dem withdrawal from the coalition? I do not know, I am not
:33:19. > :33:22.privy to Nick Clegg's in strategy. Some of us have been independent for
:33:23. > :33:29.some time. I resigned over treatment of the banks. That is now being
:33:30. > :33:34.sorted out. But what is significant is we have seen a string of attacks,
:33:35. > :33:40.almost an enemy within strategy. When you have Nick Clegg, David Laws
:33:41. > :33:47.and Danny Alexander, the three key people closest to the Conservatives,
:33:48. > :33:51.when you see all of them attacking, and this morning Nick Clegg has had
:33:52. > :33:56.a go at the Conservatives over drug policy. There is a string of
:33:57. > :34:02.policies where something is going on. It is difficult to do an enemy
:34:03. > :34:08.within strategy. I believe as many Lib Dems do that we should withdraw
:34:09. > :34:12.from the coalition six months to one year before the election so we can
:34:13. > :34:17.put our positive policies across rather than having this tricky
:34:18. > :34:25.strategy of trying to do it from within. Why does David Cameron need
:34:26. > :34:30.the Lib Dems? He probably does not. The country generally favoured the
:34:31. > :34:33.coalition to start with. Voters like to see politicians are working
:34:34. > :34:38.together and far more of that goes on in Westminster then we see. Most
:34:39. > :34:46.of my committee reports are unanimous reports from all parties.
:34:47. > :34:55.Why does he need them? I do not think he does. You would be happy to
:34:56. > :34:59.see the Lib Dems go? I would always be happy to see a single minority
:35:00. > :35:04.Government because it would be easier for legislation. The
:35:05. > :35:08.legislation you could not get through would not get through
:35:09. > :35:12.whether we were in coalition or not. The 40p tax rate, there
:35:13. > :35:17.probably is not a majority in the House of Commons at the moment,
:35:18. > :35:22.despite what Nick Clegg originally said. It does not make much
:35:23. > :35:26.difference. What makes a difference from the perspective of the
:35:27. > :35:30.committee I chair is historically we have had single party Government
:35:31. > :35:35.that have collective responsibility and clarity. The reason that is
:35:36. > :35:40.important is because nothing gets done if everybody is at sixes and
:35:41. > :35:45.sevens in the Government. Everything stops, there is paralysis as the row
:35:46. > :35:50.goes on. Civil servants do not know who they are working for. If it
:35:51. > :35:57.carries on getting fractures, there is a bigger argument to get out. If
:35:58. > :36:02.it continues at this level of intensity of the enemy within
:36:03. > :36:07.strategy as you have described it, can the coalition survived another
:36:08. > :36:10.16 months of this? It is also a question should they. I never
:36:11. > :36:18.thought I would say this, I agree with Bernard. Interestingly earlier
:36:19. > :36:22.Chuka Umunna missed the point talking about business support.
:36:23. > :36:25.Business is worried about this anti-European rhetoric and that is a
:36:26. > :36:29.deep split between the Liberal Democrats and the UKIP wing of the
:36:30. > :36:35.Tory party. That is really damaging and that is something we need to
:36:36. > :36:40.make our own case separately on. Do you get fed up when you hear
:36:41. > :36:44.constant Lib Dem attacks on you? What makes me fed up is my own party
:36:45. > :36:50.cannot respond in kind because we are in coalition. I would love to
:36:51. > :36:57.have this much more open debate. I would like to see my own party
:36:58. > :37:00.leader, for example as he did in the House of Commons, it was the Liberal
:37:01. > :37:04.Democrats who blocked the referendum on the house of lords and if we want
:37:05. > :37:09.to get this bill through it should be a Government bill. We know we can
:37:10. > :37:12.get it through the Commons, but we need to get the Liberals out of the
:37:13. > :37:17.Government so they stop blocking the Government putting forward a
:37:18. > :37:26.referendum bill. And put millions of jobs at risk? I am not going down
:37:27. > :37:31.the European road today. It strikes me that given that the attacks from
:37:32. > :37:36.the Lib Dems are now coming from the left attacking the Tories, is this a
:37:37. > :37:41.representative of the failure of Nick Clegg's strategy to rebuild a
:37:42. > :37:47.centrist Liberal party and he now accepts the only way he can save as
:37:48. > :37:53.many seats as he can do is to get the disillusioned left Lib Dem
:37:54. > :37:57.voters to come back to the fold? The site is we have lost over half our
:37:58. > :38:02.vote at the last election and at the moment there is no sign in the polls
:38:03. > :38:07.of it coming back and we are getting very close to the next election. I
:38:08. > :38:14.welcome it if Nick Clegg is starting to address that problem, but talking
:38:15. > :38:17.about the centre is not the answer. Most Liberal Democrat voters at the
:38:18. > :38:23.last election are radical, progressive people who want to see a
:38:24. > :38:26.much fairer Britain and a much less divided society and we must make
:38:27. > :38:32.sure we maximise our vote from there. We know what both of you
:38:33. > :38:37.want, but what do you think will happen? Do you think this coalition
:38:38. > :38:43.will survive all the way to the election or will it break up
:38:44. > :38:48.beforehand? I think it will break up beforehand. Our long-term economic
:38:49. > :38:51.plan is working. The further changes in policies we want to implement to
:38:52. > :38:58.sustain that plan are being held back by the Liberal Democrats. When
:38:59. > :39:03.will they break up? It has lasted longer than I thought it would, but
:39:04. > :39:10.it must break up at least six months before the election. Do you think it
:39:11. > :39:15.will survive or not? The coalition has delivered a great deal in many
:39:16. > :39:19.ways, but it is running out of steam. It depends what happens in
:39:20. > :39:24.the May elections. If the Liberal Democrats do not do better than we
:39:25. > :39:33.have done in the last three, there will be very strong pressure from
:39:34. > :39:38.the inside. You both agree. Television history has been made.
:39:39. > :39:42.You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up: I will be
:39:43. > :39:53.looking Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics
:39:54. > :39:56.in Northern Ireland. A magnificent opera house, a cast of hundreds and
:39:57. > :40:05.plenty of standing ovations. No, it wasn't the last night at the Proms,
:40:06. > :40:09.it was the Sinn Fein Ard Fheis. He's led the party for more than 30 years
:40:10. > :40:12.and despite a difficult year for Gerry Adams, there's no doubting his
:40:13. > :40:20.popularity as Sinn Fein's leader. But is it time to think about who
:40:21. > :40:24.will succeed him? There is no contest for the party leadership at
:40:25. > :40:29.the moment. It is entirely hypothetical. When it comes to the
:40:30. > :40:33.time when the party has to choose another party President, they will
:40:34. > :40:40.do so and what they will have is what they did not have in my day is
:40:41. > :40:43.a range of people. Plus, he's the Labour spokesman on Northern Ireland
:40:44. > :40:56.and he's not happy with the Tory approach to sorting our local
:40:57. > :40:59.difficulties. Ivan Lewis will join us live from Dublin. And joining me
:41:00. > :41:03.to share their thoughts on all of that are the author and commentator
:41:04. > :41:05.Susan McKay and the BBC's former Ireland correspondent, Denis
:41:06. > :41:08.Murray... With elections on both sides of the border just months
:41:09. > :41:11.away, Sinn Fein's annual conference was well-timed to rally the party
:41:12. > :41:14.faithful. But despite the upbeat mood in the conference hall, the
:41:15. > :41:17.problems facing the party in Northern Ireland were never far
:41:18. > :41:20.away. Martin McGuinness called on those he described as "sensible
:41:21. > :41:23.people within Unionism" to use their influence to secure a deal on flags,
:41:24. > :41:25.parades and the past. Our Dublin Correspondent, Shane Harrison,
:41:26. > :41:33.reports from the ard fheis in Wexford... Welcome to Wexford and
:41:34. > :41:38.the sunny south-east, but not very often this weekend. The rain was so
:41:39. > :41:44.persistent at one stage that there was concern that the river might
:41:45. > :41:48.flood, so pardon the unintended pun, but at the ard fheis, Sinn Fein was
:41:49. > :41:54.hoping to persuade floating voters in advance of the elections in May I
:41:55. > :42:02.have is of the elections. There was an orange alert for the weather.
:42:03. > :42:04.Orange alert was another theme throughout the conference
:42:05. > :42:09.proceedings. The ard fheis took place in the Wexford Opera house and
:42:10. > :42:13.delegates heard the Deputy First Minister criticised the Unionist
:42:14. > :42:19.parties for their failure to reach an agreement with nationalists on
:42:20. > :42:25.the Haass proposals. He said the Unionist parties were dancing to the
:42:26. > :42:30.Orange Order's tune. The current difficulties are real and they are
:42:31. > :42:35.not insurmountable. My commitment and the commitment of Sinn Fein to
:42:36. > :42:39.the process and to the institutions is absolute. The ard fheis heard
:42:40. > :42:44.Martin McGuiness say that the issues could not be drawn out until after
:42:45. > :42:48.the May elections, while Gerry Adams offered to meet the Orange Order to
:42:49. > :42:53.discuss their concerns. Delegates were optimistic that there would be
:42:54. > :42:58.an agreement with the DUP. We can all agree it would be better if the
:42:59. > :43:02.Executive were working in a coordinated fashion in terms of
:43:03. > :43:07.addressing the issues they are failing to address at the moment.
:43:08. > :43:11.The DUP need to realise that communities are moving on without
:43:12. > :43:15.them. They are moving ahead of the Executive in terms of delivering on
:43:16. > :43:21.cross-border issues, communities working together and the DUP need to
:43:22. > :43:25.catch up. Grassroots unionism understand that there is a situation
:43:26. > :43:31.in government and that some point somebody will have to blink and I
:43:32. > :43:35.think the DUP will have to realise from their own grassroots that the
:43:36. > :43:40.ordinary people in the six counties want a government to do the work.
:43:41. > :43:45.Gerry Adams has been President for over 30 years and a leading
:43:46. > :43:49.republican for over four decades. In the last 12 months he has been
:43:50. > :43:55.criticised in the media and by politicians, mainly in the Republic,
:43:56. > :44:07.following a programme on the Disappeared and questions about
:44:08. > :44:09.passing on information about his brother, a convicted child rapist.
:44:10. > :44:11.The ard fheis rallied around him. A relentless campaign of vilification
:44:12. > :44:16.against Gerry Adams in this State is a disgrace and it shoots stop
:44:17. > :44:21.immediately. Of those who were not even born when Gerry Adams became
:44:22. > :44:27.leader, want him to stay on. When Gerry Adams puts his name forward,
:44:28. > :44:32.they will elect him President. Will you make him President for life? I
:44:33. > :44:36.am not sure that the rules will allow for that, but I am certain
:44:37. > :44:45.that each time it Gerry Adams contests for the position, we will
:44:46. > :44:49.vote him in. The ard fheis ended without a song from the fat lady,
:44:50. > :44:55.but with lots of applause for the tall, slim, bearded man. Shane
:44:56. > :44:58.Harrison reporting from Wexford. Our Political Editor, Mark Devenport,
:44:59. > :45:01.has been speaking to the Sinn Fein President, Gerry Adams. He began by
:45:02. > :45:03.asking him about Sinn Fein ruling out re-negotiation of the Haass
:45:04. > :45:12.proposals when surely that's precisely what's going on at
:45:13. > :45:16.Stormont? We should be doing our best as political leaders, who ever
:45:17. > :45:21.we represent, to serve all of the people and the fact is these issues
:45:22. > :45:27.are not going away. We have to deal with the past, we have to deal with
:45:28. > :45:33.issues of identity and contentious parades and we will deal with them.
:45:34. > :45:39.There is a process of change underway and sometimes it strikes me
:45:40. > :45:46.that it is quite difficult to be a Unionist leader, because they come
:45:47. > :45:52.from a history of no, never, no surrender and now they have to
:45:53. > :45:56.embrace equality and embrace other qualities which are almost foreign
:45:57. > :46:00.to the Unionist philosophy. All they can do is delay, but they cannot
:46:01. > :46:08.stop a process of change, the political landscape, the 1-party
:46:09. > :46:14.state has gone, the 2.5 parties state in this state has gone, so
:46:15. > :46:20.changes happening. If there is not a dealer by the time of the elections,
:46:21. > :46:26.have you got any other alternative? We will continue to make process and
:46:27. > :46:33.engage with all sectors of society, I actually think that the Unionist
:46:34. > :46:39.leaders are well behind were popular opinion, including popular Unionist
:46:40. > :46:42.opinion, while they may reflect the elitist or committed political core
:46:43. > :46:47.that we all work with, you but you have to see beyond that and Martin
:46:48. > :46:55.McGuiness said quite wisely to Michael Nesbit, if you have got 90%
:46:56. > :47:02.of A.D. , then close the deal. We are uncomfortable with aspects of
:47:03. > :47:06.this, we would argue that it could be strengthened in certain aspects,
:47:07. > :47:12.but you cannot in this negotiation get it the way you want. This will
:47:13. > :47:20.not be the Ulster, Don't, it is going to be a compromised --
:47:21. > :47:25.covenant. The British Government needs to make it clear, the Irish
:47:26. > :47:33.government has said it wants to see this implemented, the British
:47:34. > :47:38.Government needs to do the same. Do you think it David Cameron was wise
:47:39. > :47:40.to big that speech calling for people in England, Wales and
:47:41. > :47:48.Northern Ireland to make their voices known in relation to Scottish
:47:49. > :47:52.independence? That is his business. We decided to stay out of the debate
:47:53. > :47:57.on Scotland because that is a matter for the people of Scotland. The
:47:58. > :48:02.affairs of this island are matter for the people here. He is the
:48:03. > :48:07.British Prime Minister, he will say whatever he says. I made a point to
:48:08. > :48:14.one of your colleagues, and I will make a broader point, the use to be
:48:15. > :48:20.a British Empire, now we are it. That is what it has been reduced to,
:48:21. > :48:26.almost from ruling the globe, they are now reduced to this,
:48:27. > :48:29.thankfully. There used to be a certainty for those who would
:48:30. > :48:33.support the union that it would be there for ever, the North was
:48:34. > :48:39.described as being as British as Finchley, but that has gone. People
:48:40. > :48:42.need to wake up, it has gone. The union is now conditional, one of the
:48:43. > :48:47.big achievements of the Good Friday Agreement is that it is a matter for
:48:48. > :48:52.the people to decide and we want to urge that debate here, whatever the
:48:53. > :48:57.people of Scotland do, that is a matter for them, but the debate
:48:58. > :49:04.here, we want to encourage that. You said that the UK is hanging by a
:49:05. > :49:09.thread, if Irish republicans were two to -- to take some encouragement
:49:10. > :49:15.from Scotland, is the reverse true, if there is a no vote, it may have a
:49:16. > :49:23.negative impact on your campaign for border poll. No, there is an
:49:24. > :49:27.integrity to the awful negative impact of British Government rule on
:49:28. > :49:32.our island. I say that with respect to people from the Unionist
:49:33. > :49:36.tradition who have a sense of Britishness, or whatever, about
:49:37. > :49:42.their right to that and their identity, no one can argue that
:49:43. > :49:46.British Government involvement in our affairs on partition or the
:49:47. > :49:51.development of sectarianism or all of the divisions, we talk about the
:49:52. > :49:55.last 30 years of conflict, which thankfully is behind us, but think
:49:56. > :50:01.back over the centuries. It has never been good for us. Those people
:50:02. > :50:07.within unionism who are sitting back now and saying, will we have another
:50:08. > :50:11.summer like last year? Will we have idiots running around the city
:50:12. > :50:18.centre with union flags around them, besmirching their own flag and
:50:19. > :50:23.breaking the law and inflicting sectarian pressure upon small
:50:24. > :50:27.communities or can we not just be like people everywhere, that we
:50:28. > :50:33.welcome this summer, or we can all relax and have a good time? Martin
:50:34. > :50:37.McGuiness made clear that he has no intention of putting himself forward
:50:38. > :50:44.to succeed you as party President, will the next leader be based in the
:50:45. > :50:50.Dail rather than an MLA? That is up to the party. When I first stood as
:50:51. > :50:56.party President, I did so reluctantly. At that time, I did say
:50:57. > :51:02.that I thought that the party President should come from the
:51:03. > :51:06.south. We have such a range of talented people. Do you still think
:51:07. > :51:15.the party President should come from the South? Yes, but I am mindful
:51:16. > :51:20.that there is no contest for the party leadership at the moment. It
:51:21. > :51:24.is entirely hypothetical. When it comes to the time when the party has
:51:25. > :51:30.to choose another party President, they will do so and what they will
:51:31. > :51:40.have, it which they did not have in my day, is a range of people, both
:51:41. > :51:46.men and women from Donegal to Wexford, across the country, of
:51:47. > :51:50.bright intelligent, smart and very energetic people and what we all
:51:51. > :51:56.share, all the different ages that we have, we still share and idealism
:51:57. > :52:01.and have an energy and commitment. Thank you. Gerry Adams talking to
:52:02. > :52:04.Mark Devenport in Wexford. Joining me now are the BBC's former Ireland
:52:05. > :52:09.Correspondent, Denis Murray, and the commentator Susan McKay... You're
:52:10. > :52:13.both welcome. Sinn Fein made the point repeatedly over the weekend
:52:14. > :52:20.that it is an all island party, but this was a speech for two quite
:52:21. > :52:24.different electorates. It was almost like two speeches and the vast bulk
:52:25. > :52:28.of it was for the audience in the Irish Republic. I covered in ard
:52:29. > :52:33.fheis for years and the bulk of the speech was always about the
:52:34. > :52:39.struggle, about the North, about that question. Now, it is almost
:52:40. > :52:43.despite Gerry Adams's insistence on an all island party, it is almost
:52:44. > :52:48.like you do not have to talk about Northern Ireland, it is resolved.
:52:49. > :52:54.The Republic is where Sinn Fein can increase the vote. There was that
:52:55. > :52:58.line in the speech, offering to reach out to the Orange Order and
:52:59. > :53:03.meet the leadership to discuss identity, but over and above that,
:53:04. > :53:09.there was not a huge amount about unionism. There are other quite
:53:10. > :53:15.significant things. A lying about the Orange tradition, been an
:53:16. > :53:21.important part of our history. He is making the right noises, but when he
:53:22. > :53:24.says about idiots in his speech. The people who are doing that, you may
:53:25. > :53:32.see them as that, but that passion goes very deep with them. Is it
:53:33. > :53:38.about setting out his stall for further growth in the Republic? Sinn
:53:39. > :53:42.Fein is on the rise in the Republic and they will do better and better
:53:43. > :53:48.for the meantime, but they underestimate the resilience of
:53:49. > :53:53.Fianna Fail. They have the biggest appeal of those least likely to
:53:54. > :53:58.vote. They are popular with young men, working-class young men, they
:53:59. > :54:02.are unpopular with women and middle-class voters. They are going
:54:03. > :54:06.to have to work on that constituency and obviously Mary Lou McDonald
:54:07. > :54:12.would make a huge difference if she was leader. Is that looking more
:54:13. > :54:21.likely? Gerry Adams is terribly damaged. He has looked damaged.
:54:22. > :54:28.Because he is there among the faithful, but certainly he is
:54:29. > :54:31.damaged. If he talks about a toxic culture in relation to issues like
:54:32. > :54:36.child abuse, it will not wash because the party has been shown to
:54:37. > :54:44.have a toxic culture itself in that regard. He does need to go for the
:54:45. > :54:47.party to have a wider appeal. He is hopeless on economic issues in the
:54:48. > :54:53.Republic. Mary Lou McDonald has performed strongly on that. It must
:54:54. > :54:57.be said that the party did back the disastrous Fianna Fail bank
:54:58. > :55:06.guarantee which underlies so much of the economic crisis in the Republic.
:55:07. > :55:09.Thank you both for now. The Shadow Secretary of State, Ivan Lewis, is
:55:10. > :55:12.meeting the Tanaiste, Eamonn Gilmore, in Dublin today. On a
:55:13. > :55:15.recent trip to Belfast, Mr Lewis warned that three years of
:55:16. > :55:17.consecutive elections could lead to a period of 'timidity or political
:55:18. > :55:21.paralysis' in Northern Ireland. Reacting to the failure of the Haass
:55:22. > :55:24.talks to break the deadlock over parades, flags and the past, he said
:55:25. > :55:27.that 'standing still' over the challenges that remain would 'mean
:55:28. > :55:35.going backwards'. Ivan Lewis joins me now from Dublin... Thank you for
:55:36. > :55:39.joining us. You are due to meet Eamon Gilmore later today, you were
:55:40. > :55:46.at the ard fheis over the weekend. You have been critical of the
:55:47. > :55:51.Tories's handling of politics here, what would you do differently if you
:55:52. > :55:56.were in charge? Flags parades and the past are issues which are
:55:57. > :55:59.outstanding issues connected with the peace process. If you looked at
:56:00. > :56:04.the evolution of the peace process, every stage of that process, the UK
:56:05. > :56:08.and Irish governments have been heavily engaged, directly meeting
:56:09. > :56:12.the parties, trying to help find common ground. The parties must
:56:13. > :56:15.maintain leadership but that lack of engagement we have seen,
:56:16. > :56:20.particularly from the UK Government has come home to roost with the
:56:21. > :56:26.failure to reach agreement in relation to Haass. Theresa Villiers
:56:27. > :56:30.disputes that, she says she is engaged and waiting to step in if
:56:31. > :56:38.requested to do so. Eamon Gilmore made a similar point. I have been in
:56:39. > :56:42.this job for five months and every Northern Irish politician I have met
:56:43. > :56:47.has talked about, clearly, the sense of the Secretary of State who is
:56:48. > :56:52.disengaged. When have we seen David Cameron make any comments about the
:56:53. > :56:58.Haass talks? In the end, of course it is right that we must allow
:56:59. > :57:00.devolution to work, we must encourage Northern Ireland parties
:57:01. > :57:07.to take responsibility, but the issues we are focused on our
:57:08. > :57:12.directly, issues connected with the peace process and if you look at the
:57:13. > :57:16.past, the UK Government is massively central to dealing with the past in
:57:17. > :57:20.Northern Ireland, as is the Irish government. If you look at any
:57:21. > :57:24.outcome from Haass, there will be financial implications, in terms of
:57:25. > :57:28.any new infrastructure required to deal with the past, there will be
:57:29. > :57:36.legislative issues, in terms of devolving -- getting rid of the
:57:37. > :57:40.Parades Commission. The British and Irish government have direct
:57:41. > :57:46.involvement. Are you saying that you would have called all of the parties
:57:47. > :57:50.around the table and you would be chairing further Haass
:57:51. > :57:54.negotiations? That sounds very paternalistic that we would be
:57:55. > :57:58.calling in the parties, we would have been having over a long period
:57:59. > :58:02.of time intensive discussions. They would have been private and
:58:03. > :58:08.discreet. We would be trying to identify the common ground. Last
:58:09. > :58:12.week, the Secretary of State did an interview where she said there would
:58:13. > :58:16.be some resources potentially available to make any agreement on
:58:17. > :58:21.the past work. Prior to that, she said there would be no resources.
:58:22. > :58:26.Subsequently she said she had been misquoted and would still be no
:58:27. > :58:30.resources. There is even a lack of clarity. The Prime Minister has been
:58:31. > :58:37.absent entirely from the discussions. What is perhaps not
:58:38. > :58:43.helpful to moving forward is to have an end to the bipartisan approach,
:58:44. > :58:48.to have a shadow Secretary of State sniping at the Secretary of State
:58:49. > :58:52.who says she is doing her best? It is not me who arrived in Northern
:58:53. > :58:56.Ireland and talked about the disengagement of the UK Government,
:58:57. > :59:00.it is all the political parties who feel the same. If they all feel the
:59:01. > :59:05.same, they are either involved in a conspiracy or telling the truth. Of
:59:06. > :59:13.course on questions of security and many other issues, not welfare and
:59:14. > :59:15.jobs and growth, but on security, we will maintain our bipartisan
:59:16. > :59:19.approach. Can I ask you about the Ballymurphy families who have had
:59:20. > :59:24.their demand for an independent panel backed by the Taoiseach in
:59:25. > :59:30.Dublin? The families are waiting for a meeting with David Cameron, where
:59:31. > :59:35.do you stand on that demand? I shall certainly be meeting them for the
:59:36. > :59:39.first time next week in Belfast. There are questions to answer, I
:59:40. > :59:43.will certainly meet with them and engage with them and clarifying our
:59:44. > :59:50.position on the nature of any enquiry, but of course, David
:59:51. > :59:58.Cameron should meet with the families. Ivan Lewis, thank you.
:59:59. > :00:06.Now, let's pause for a look back at the week in politics in sixty
:00:07. > :00:11.seconds, with Gareth Gordon... Could the row over a new chief constable
:00:12. > :00:19.calls political fallout? If you do not get your way, is this a
:00:20. > :00:23.resignation matter? I think you are straying beyond the remit. Should
:00:24. > :00:27.Protestants learn the Irish language? I believe it is part of a
:00:28. > :00:33.republican agenda. Eventually they will try and make it the same as
:00:34. > :00:37.English. In a free country, people are entitled to learn whatever
:00:38. > :00:44.language they wish and to practice whatever language they wish. Has the
:00:45. > :00:48.GAA done enough to calm fears over the new Casement Park? There are
:00:49. > :00:54.things we could have done better. I take responsible a day for that.
:00:55. > :00:57.Does the Education Minister O one of his critics an apology? Because I
:00:58. > :01:02.would not write to him, because I wrote to the permanent Secretary,
:01:03. > :01:09.that he should punish me. There are many injustices throughout the world
:01:10. > :01:12.and meeting him on the latter is not one of them. Gareth Gordon
:01:13. > :01:18.reporting. Denis Murray and Susan McKay are still with me... Picking
:01:19. > :01:25.up there, what is the perspective from Dublin on this spat between the
:01:26. > :01:28.Secretary of State and Ivan Lewis about how much the British
:01:29. > :01:32.Government and Irish government should or should not be involved in
:01:33. > :01:38.the political dialogue regarding Haass at the moment? The Irish
:01:39. > :01:42.government is nervous about dealing with criticising unionism and since
:01:43. > :01:47.that unionism is clearly responsible for the failure of the Haass talks
:01:48. > :01:52.to be agreed at this point, that is difficult for them. Eamon Gilmore
:01:53. > :01:57.has indicated that he will support trying to get the proposals
:01:58. > :02:02.implemented, but in a timid way. I think it will be seen as welcome
:02:03. > :02:05.that the shadow Secretary of State is saying things, pointing out the
:02:06. > :02:13.dithering that Theresa Villiers has done. She has been a week Secretary
:02:14. > :02:19.of State. Your thoughts, Dennis? The way the talks ended was not
:02:20. > :02:24.pleasant. Richard Haass meant his deadline. Tony Blair kept moving the
:02:25. > :02:28.deadline back. Those talks were about ending the conflict, these
:02:29. > :02:33.talks are about trying to deal with the post-conflict situation and the
:02:34. > :02:37.problems. I do not see how you revive those in any meaningful way
:02:38. > :02:42.until after the elections and then you're into the marching season. It
:02:43. > :02:44.remains a challenge. Thank you for joining us. That's it for
:02:45. > :02:56.Londoners who otherwise may not have a voice. Both of you, thank you so
:02:57. > :03:01.much. Andrew, it is back to you. Can David Cameron get a grip on the
:03:02. > :03:05.floods? Can UKIP push the Conservatives into third place in
:03:06. > :03:08.the Wythenshawe by-election on Thursday? Is the speaker in the
:03:09. > :03:16.House of Commons in danger of overheating? All questions over the
:03:17. > :03:22.weekend. Let's look at the politics of the flooding. Let me show you a
:03:23. > :03:29.clip from Eric Pickles, the Communities Secretary, earlier on
:03:30. > :03:35.the BBC this morning. We perhaps relied too much on the Environment
:03:36. > :03:39.Agency's advice. I apologise. I apologise unreservedly and I am
:03:40. > :03:45.really sorry we took the advice of what we thought we were doing was
:03:46. > :03:48.the best. The Environment Agency is being hung out to dry by the
:03:49. > :03:54.Government and the Government has taken over the running of the
:03:55. > :03:59.environmental mess in the Somerset Levels. It is turning into a serious
:04:00. > :04:03.crisis by the Government and even more so for the people who are
:04:04. > :04:09.dealing with the flooding. There is no doubt that what has been revealed
:04:10. > :04:14.is it is not just about what the Government did or did not do six
:04:15. > :04:20.months ago. What is being exposed is an entire culture within the
:04:21. > :04:23.Environment Agency, fuelled often by European directives about dredging
:04:24. > :04:29.and all manner of other things, a culture grew up in which plants were
:04:30. > :04:32.put ahead of people if you like. All of that is collapsing in very
:04:33. > :04:38.difficult circumstances by the Government and it is difficult for
:04:39. > :04:41.them to manage. Chris Smith would save the Environment Agency is
:04:42. > :04:46.acting under a law set by this Government and previous governments
:04:47. > :04:49.and the first priority is the protection of life, second property
:04:50. > :04:55.and third agricultural land and he is saying we are working within that
:04:56. > :04:59.framework. It is an edifying spectacle, they are setting up Lord
:05:00. > :05:03.Smith to be the fall guy. His term of office comes at the end of the
:05:04. > :05:08.summer and they will find something new. But the point Lord Smith is
:05:09. > :05:12.making is that dredging is important and it was a mistake not to dredge,
:05:13. > :05:17.but it is a bigger picture than that. I am no expert, but you need a
:05:18. > :05:24.whole skill solution that is looking not just bad dredging, but at the
:05:25. > :05:28.whole catchment area looking at the production of maize. It is harvested
:05:29. > :05:34.in autumn and then the water runs off the topsoil. You see the
:05:35. > :05:38.pictures of the flooding, it is all topsoil flooding through those
:05:39. > :05:42.towns. What you have got to have in the uplands is some land that can
:05:43. > :05:47.absorb that water and there are really big questions about the way
:05:48. > :05:51.we carry out farming. Chris Smith was meant to appear on the Andrew
:05:52. > :05:55.Marr show this morning, but pulled back at the last minute. There must
:05:56. > :06:00.be doubts as to whether he can survive to the summer. Where is the
:06:01. > :06:07.chief executive of the Environment Agency? I agree with Nick that Chris
:06:08. > :06:10.Smith has been setup in this situation. David Cameron went to the
:06:11. > :06:17.Somerset Levels on Friday for about half an hour, in and out, with no
:06:18. > :06:24.angry people shouting at him. You to a farm. It is agreed he has had good
:06:25. > :06:30.crisis. But we are seen as being a London media class who does not
:06:31. > :06:34.understand the countryside. You can imagine David Cameron in a pair of
:06:35. > :06:40.wellies. If this was happening in Guildford, it would not have dragged
:06:41. > :06:43.on for so long. Looe it is interesting how they are saying the
:06:44. > :06:49.Environment Agency has put words in front of everything else. The
:06:50. > :06:53.great-great-grandson of Queen Victoria thinks people should be
:06:54. > :06:58.sacked at the whim. He is talking about how the Environment Agency
:06:59. > :07:03.spent ?31 million on a bird sanctuary. It turns out the bird
:07:04. > :07:08.sanctuary was an attempt to put up a flood defence system for a village
:07:09. > :07:12.which has worked. That village has been saved. They compensated some
:07:13. > :07:17.farmers for the farmland they were not going to be able to farm and put
:07:18. > :07:26.a flood defence system further back to protect this village and then
:07:27. > :07:29.they built a bird sanctuary. It was not ?31 million to create a bird
:07:30. > :07:35.sanctuary, it was to save a village and it worked. But in 2008 the
:07:36. > :07:40.Environment Agency was talking about dynamiting every pumping agency.
:07:41. > :07:46.There was a metropolitan mindset on the part of that agency. If it does
:07:47. > :07:51.what Owen Paterson, who is now off in an eye operation, suggested a
:07:52. > :07:56.plan to fix this, they will find a lot of what they want or need to do
:07:57. > :08:04.will be in contravention of European directives. The Wythenshawe
:08:05. > :08:09.by-election. There is no question Labour is going to win, probably
:08:10. > :08:14.incredibly convincingly, one poll showing 60% plus of the vote. It
:08:15. > :08:19.would be surprising if Labour was in any threat up there. The issue is,
:08:20. > :08:26.does UKIP beat the Tories and if so, by how much? The latest poll was
:08:27. > :08:32.showing it in second place as nip and tuck, but the feeling I have is
:08:33. > :08:35.UKIP will do better. And they have got a great local candidate. The
:08:36. > :08:40.Tories have not parachuted somebody in and they have got a local man in
:08:41. > :08:44.and that will help them. We have all been waiting to see if the Tories
:08:45. > :08:53.lose their head, but they might go chicken earlier than that. Will UKIP
:08:54. > :08:58.come second? It looks like that. A poll this week showed that Labour is
:08:59. > :09:04.way ahead and UKIP possibly second. But it is an important by-election
:09:05. > :09:08.for UKIP. If they do well in the European elections, they should
:09:09. > :09:11.still be on a roll. They did really well in by-elections last year. If
:09:12. > :09:17.they do not do well, is it because they are not on payroll? Or in
:09:18. > :09:23.Manchester they have a fantastic leader of the council? Will UKIP
:09:24. > :09:27.come a good second? I think they will and if they do not, it might
:09:28. > :09:34.suggest Nigel Farage is losing its slightly. One thing to look out for
:09:35. > :09:40.is how little Labour are attacking UKIP. Their election strategy relies
:09:41. > :09:45.a lot on UKIP taking Tory votes. But it could also take Labour votes.
:09:46. > :09:50.Particularly in the north and we shall see. The results will be out
:09:51. > :09:57.on Thursday night. The Speaker of the House of Commons, John Bird: ,
:09:58. > :10:03.his interventions have become more frequent and something was strange.
:10:04. > :10:10.Have a look. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman. Order, the
:10:11. > :10:15.Government Chief Whip has absolutely no business whatsoever shouting from
:10:16. > :10:20.a sedentary position. Order, the honourable gentleman will remain in
:10:21. > :10:28.the chamber. If we could tackle this problem. I say to the honourable
:10:29. > :10:32.member for Bridgwater, be quiet, if you cannot be quiet, get out, it is
:10:33. > :10:51.rude, stupid and pompous and it needs to stop. Michael Gove. Order.
:10:52. > :10:57.You really... Order. You are a very over excitable individual. You need
:10:58. > :11:01.to write out 1000 times, I will behave myself at Prime Minister 's
:11:02. > :11:07.questions. He was talking to the Education Secretary and it is not
:11:08. > :11:16.1000 lines, it is 100 lines, at least it was in my day. Is he
:11:17. > :11:19.beginning to make a fool of himself? There was only one over excitable
:11:20. > :11:22.person there and that was the speaker and he is losing the
:11:23. > :11:27.confidence of the Conservative MPs, but he never had that in the first
:11:28. > :11:32.place. But he is an incredibly reforming speaker. He has this
:11:33. > :11:39.strange idea that Parliament should hold the Government to account. It
:11:40. > :11:45.will never catch on. It means very frequently there are urgent
:11:46. > :11:47.questions. The other day he called a backbench amendment on the
:11:48. > :11:53.deportation of foreign criminals. He could have found a way not to call
:11:54. > :11:57.that. He is a real reformer and the executive do not like that. That is
:11:58. > :12:05.true and he has allowed Parliament to flourish which has given us room
:12:06. > :12:06.to breathe at a time of a coalition Government when Parliament has more
:12:07. > :12:10.power. That is all that Government when Parliament has more
:12:11. > :12:16.power. That is all that enough to overcome these increasingly mannered
:12:17. > :12:23.and some of them may be preplanned interventions? The last one was last
:12:24. > :12:30.week, and last week the speaker had a rather stressful week with the
:12:31. > :12:37.tabloids. Something is clearly up. I think it is a real shame. I think
:12:38. > :12:41.many of us when he was elected did not think he would make a great
:12:42. > :12:46.speaker and there are people like Douglas Carswell and Tory rebels who
:12:47. > :12:50.have said he is a fantastic speaker. He has given the Commons room to
:12:51. > :12:55.breathe and he has called on ministers to be held to account when
:12:56. > :13:00.they do not want to be. What do you think? He is seen as anti-government
:13:01. > :13:07.and he is pro-backbencher and that is what people do not like. People
:13:08. > :13:13.like Douglas Carswell are actually very strongly in support of him. We
:13:14. > :13:17.carry the interventions every week on Prime Minister 's questions and
:13:18. > :13:21.we see them every week and they are getting a bit more eccentric. If I
:13:22. > :13:28.was having to keep that under control, I would be driven slowly
:13:29. > :13:33.mad. But his job is easier than mine. But if you look at his
:13:34. > :13:41.deputy, Eleanor Laing, she is very robust, but she is calm. Chap who
:13:42. > :13:49.does the budget is excellent. We are on throughout the week at midday on
:13:50. > :13:52.BBC Two. We will be back next Sunday at 11. If it is Sunday, it is the
:13:53. > :14:00.Sunday Politics.