:01:24. > :01:29.And coming up on Sunday politics in that Northern Ireland...
:01:29. > :01:39.Basil McPhail and being found guilty of indiscipline. Three MEPs
:01:39. > :01:39.
:01:39. > :42:44.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2465 seconds
:42:44. > :42:48.on the latest Brussels budget. Join Welcome to Sunday politics in
:42:48. > :42:54.Northern Ireland. As a McGhee was found guilty of two counts of and
:42:54. > :42:58.disciplined. Is everything rosy indeed DUP garden?
:42:58. > :43:04.After more than 24 hours of gruelling budget talks, EU leaders
:43:04. > :43:08.have agreed a compromise deal. David Cameron might be happy that
:43:08. > :43:13.spending might be reduced. It looks like the EU peace programme budget
:43:13. > :43:18.for Northern Ireland will be cut by 75 million euros. I will be talking
:43:18. > :43:28.to our three local MEPs. Joining me with insights into the state of
:43:28. > :43:33.Europe by am joined by eight Nick Lagan Valley MLA Basil McCrae has
:43:33. > :43:37.been found guilty of indiscipline by an Ulster Unionist Party
:43:37. > :43:41.committee and given them a formal warning. He spoke out last week
:43:41. > :43:46.against party policy. The two complaints against him were upheld,
:43:46. > :43:51.so does the decision to give them a slap on the wrist rather than expel
:43:51. > :43:54.him mean an end to the matter? He is with us now, thank you for
:43:54. > :43:58.joining us. You must be disappointed he did not throw the
:43:58. > :44:04.book at you? I am disappointed they did not find
:44:04. > :44:07.in my favour. A spokes on party policy, I did not attack anybody
:44:07. > :44:12.come at I acted in the best interests of the party and I
:44:12. > :44:16.provided them with lots of detail on the record to see this was what
:44:16. > :44:21.was said, so why am at a loss to how they have come to that
:44:21. > :44:25.conclusion. They handed out the most lenient punishment available
:44:25. > :44:30.to them. The fine you guilty but gave you a formal warning. Has that
:44:30. > :44:33.row fitted you? A lot of people said that you wanted to be made a
:44:34. > :44:37.martyr. If you'd -- they had thrown you out of the party you could have
:44:37. > :44:41.moved on. I do not know what a formal warning
:44:41. > :44:45.implies. Does that mean I am only slightly guilty or that I was not
:44:45. > :44:54.guilty at all of there are other issues? The you are absolutely
:44:54. > :44:57.guilty, they are clear about that. The I don't understand the
:44:57. > :45:01.conclusions, you were guilty but we're not going to throw the book
:45:01. > :45:06.at you. This seems strange. My ultimate responsibility is to the
:45:06. > :45:13.electorate. The people that put me into power, the people that Ford
:45:13. > :45:19.for me... What exposition of the party's
:45:19. > :45:23.position do you have at this stage? Have they gone through it point by
:45:23. > :45:27.point in great detail? One of the really disappointing
:45:27. > :45:30.things about this process is that I have had no detail about the way
:45:30. > :45:34.they are thinking. You would have thought a party that has been
:45:34. > :45:36.around for 100 years with lots of experience in disciplinary
:45:36. > :45:42.procedures would have a better procedure than this.
:45:42. > :45:48.This is what I have. This is one page, handwritten. This is the
:45:48. > :45:53.investigative report, all there is. There is nothing else. That is not
:45:53. > :45:56.the finding, is it? No Mac, that is the investigative
:45:56. > :46:04.reporter that decides whether I have a case to answer or not. It is
:46:04. > :46:08.half a page of A4 paper, handwritten. It provides no detail,
:46:08. > :46:15.and until they are able to explain to me and the public what is going
:46:15. > :46:19.on, then I have to say I still think I have a good case. Do you
:46:19. > :46:23.dispute the findings? You still maintain that the evidence you gave
:46:23. > :46:27.points to one conclusion only, that they were not guilty of the two
:46:27. > :46:33.charges you were facing? That is correct. It is not a matter of
:46:33. > :46:38.opinion, this is fact. This is tram scripted. You can beat this. With
:46:38. > :46:42.respect, you're the defendant, not the judge. You are standing in the
:46:42. > :46:47.dock, the judges, your fellow party members, listens to the evidence
:46:48. > :46:51.and looked at the facts, and they made a ruling that you may not like
:46:51. > :46:56.but it disagrees with your point of view.
:46:56. > :47:00.I do not understand how they have reached their conclusions. Also,
:47:00. > :47:04.they seem to have something of a problem in this regard. There is a
:47:04. > :47:08.pattern emerging about dealing with disciplinary procedures. The number
:47:08. > :47:13.of people that have left the party in the last number of years, we do
:47:13. > :47:16.not appear to have got this right. A am confused about how they are
:47:16. > :47:20.thinking, I do not think I have done anything wrong and would stand
:47:20. > :47:24.by my case. If you still maintain your
:47:24. > :47:28.innocence and none of us are any the wiser because we have not seen
:47:28. > :47:33.the details of what precisely you have been charged with and how you
:47:33. > :47:38.answered those charges, while good do not call their bluff by
:47:38. > :47:43.publishing the evidence that you say makes you innocent, put it in
:47:43. > :47:47.the public domain and let voters decide for themselves who is right?
:47:47. > :47:51.The first thing I am going to do is speak to my local association and
:47:51. > :47:56.explain to them what is going on, and I will give them all of the
:47:56. > :48:01.details, the document I have and the charges against me. I am also
:48:01. > :48:05.of a mind because of the electorate being the ultimate arbiter of need,
:48:05. > :48:11.that I will publish what I have and invite the party to publish what
:48:11. > :48:14.they have. I am not an employee, I am an elected representative. The
:48:14. > :48:19.public have a right to know, I will stand by my case and put it out
:48:19. > :48:23.there, and I will -- ask them to do the same.
:48:23. > :48:26.If you publish your side of the story, people will find in your
:48:26. > :48:33.favour? Do I have been clear to the party,
:48:33. > :48:37.they asked me to sign a confidentially -- confidentiality
:48:37. > :48:41.agreement twice and I refused. I intend to tell the electorate and I
:48:41. > :48:46.will publish it. Will you pull this decision?
:48:46. > :48:52.I certainly want to address the issue.
:48:52. > :48:55.-- will you appeal this decision? I reiterate that I have at all
:48:55. > :48:59.times acted in the best interests of the party...
:48:59. > :49:03.Are you going to sit down and appealed this or let it go? You
:49:03. > :49:08.must have a view of the longer term, whether or not Basil McCrae will
:49:08. > :49:12.remain in the party or not? I will take advice, but I am not
:49:12. > :49:16.happy with the decision that has come out, and an appeal is
:49:16. > :49:19.certainly open to me. It is most unfortunate party officers are
:49:20. > :49:23.making public statements already that seemed to prejudice the case.
:49:23. > :49:27.The entire process is compromised, and that is part of the problem.
:49:27. > :49:29.The party has to find a better way of dealing with it and I hope I
:49:30. > :49:35.will be able to help them deal with that.
:49:35. > :49:39.We will leave it there for now, thank you for joining us.
:49:39. > :49:43.We will hear the views of my guests on the state of the Ulster
:49:43. > :49:53.Unionists shortly, but first, from horse making beefburgers to Adam
:49:53. > :49:58.
:49:58. > :50:01.and Eve, it is all in the week in He meet and what we eat made
:50:01. > :50:04.headlines again and it came with a warning.
:50:05. > :50:12.Those people need to be brought to book by the law.
:50:12. > :50:17.An Ulster said no group open the police and fire jeans.
:50:17. > :50:19.Ireland's multi-billion debt deal was hailed by some as a success...
:50:19. > :50:24.Are Government is on doing the disastrous banking policies that
:50:24. > :50:29.brought this state to the brink of national bankruptcy.
:50:29. > :50:33.The road to a united Ireland seemed longer than ever.
:50:33. > :50:37.It looks like one that will lift the spirits of almost everyone in
:50:37. > :50:41.this House, because we believed in a United Kingdom and we believe in
:50:41. > :50:45.Northern Ireland been part of that United Kingdom.
:50:45. > :50:50.Gay weddings got Westminster's blessing but some could not admit.
:50:50. > :51:00.A In the Garden of Eden, it was adamant and Steve, it was not Adam
:51:00. > :51:03.and Eve... It was not Adam and Eve. Stephen Walker reporting. Let's
:51:04. > :51:08.hear for the former director of communications for the Ulster
:51:08. > :51:14.Unionist Party, Alex Kane and PR consultant and commentator Nick
:51:14. > :51:18.Garbutt. Welcome. The long-running sketch -- Sagar of bars, Gray's
:51:18. > :51:21.this entanglement from the Ulster Unionist Party continues. What did
:51:21. > :51:30.we learn this morning? At do not think we learned anything new.
:51:30. > :51:35.It was a classic fudge. They found him guilty. The actually passed the
:51:35. > :51:39.whole thing over to Nisbet. This will now become a clash of two
:51:39. > :51:45.miniature titans. The whip is the only one who can give this whip
:51:45. > :51:50.back. He will have conditions, he will DEC, basil, I will give the
:51:50. > :51:54.whip back but I want a public admission that you will tour the
:51:54. > :51:59.line. Battle will not give that. The other thing is they said it was
:51:59. > :52:04.the most lenient punishment they could give him. It was informed by
:52:04. > :52:08.the fact that Mike has the whip, but also that Basil intends to
:52:08. > :52:11.leave the Unionist Party no matter what happens in all of this.
:52:11. > :52:15.Nick Garbutt did you think Basil McCrae is preparing the way to
:52:15. > :52:22.depart? I think it is inevitable. I do not think this is doing the
:52:22. > :52:27.party any good at all. Alex Kane is talking about a fudge, they do not
:52:27. > :52:31.need fat at the moment. If you look at a good successful party, it has
:52:31. > :52:35.three key element - great organisation, strong leadership and
:52:35. > :52:40.discipline and compelling messages people can buy into and support.
:52:40. > :52:45.Sadly, at the moment, the party does not have any of those.
:52:45. > :52:48.It is difficult to recover from a situation like this, isn't it?
:52:48. > :52:56.trouble with the Ulster Unionist Party, they need a number of things,
:52:56. > :53:01.but they also need a clear sense of direction. The problem is, it is a
:53:01. > :53:05.party of two haves, three thirds, there is no unity and direction. It
:53:05. > :53:10.does not matter how good the message or organisation is, if you
:53:10. > :53:14.cannot knock adored and asked people what he Ulster Unionist
:53:14. > :53:20.Party believes income unless you can get a clear answer it goes to
:53:20. > :53:24.the party that has the clearest message.
:53:24. > :53:30.Hope might make -- Mike Nesbitt react to Basil McCrae saying this
:53:30. > :53:32.morning that he will put in the public domain information that a
:53:32. > :53:37.punter will now the public has not seen that he says will underscore
:53:37. > :53:41.his case and undermine the party? The trouble is, it was interesting
:53:41. > :53:48.for the first few weeks when you had someone saying he was standing
:53:48. > :53:55.up for party policy. The general public, the media, they have no
:53:55. > :54:00.good interest in the mind you shy. Most people have accepted, but will
:54:00. > :54:06.want to leave the Ulster Unionist Party. -- have no interest in the
:54:06. > :54:10.minute detail. They may as well just cut it and go.
:54:10. > :54:15.Nick, you are involved in the motion of crisis management, and we
:54:15. > :54:22.will come onto that as far as Europe and horsemeat is concerned,
:54:22. > :54:25.but in terms of the party, what advice would you give? It is hard,
:54:25. > :54:30.because the smaller our party and weaker our party becomes the less
:54:30. > :54:33.power and influence you can trade with senior members, and the more
:54:33. > :54:39.difficult it is to control people. If you were talking about Labour in
:54:39. > :54:43.opposition, you have all the shadow Cabinet posts, a look for people to
:54:43. > :54:49.lose if they step out of line. But the Ulster Unionists, there are not
:54:49. > :54:52.be too many cards for Mike Nesbitt to play. It will be interesting to
:54:52. > :54:55.see what happens when they go back to Stormont tomorrow. We will be
:54:55. > :54:59.back with you later in the programme.
:54:59. > :55:02.Europe has agreed to more funding supporting scores of community
:55:02. > :55:08.groups here, as well as high- profile projects like the Peace
:55:08. > :55:14.Bridge across the River Foyle and the planned Conflict Resolution
:55:14. > :55:17.Centre at the form at Maze Prison. But the Peace IV package has been
:55:17. > :55:23.reduced to 150 million euros, on the back of the first ever real-
:55:23. > :55:27.terms cut on the eve -- overall EU budget. I am joined by a All-Star
:55:27. > :55:32.Unionist Jim Nicholson and the DUP's Diane Dodds, and we're joined
:55:32. > :55:38.from our Foyle's studio by Sinn Fein's Martina Anderson. Diane
:55:38. > :55:42.Dodds, first of all, let me ask you about the Budget. It is the first
:55:42. > :55:49.real terms budget cut as far as the he is concerned in these days of
:55:49. > :55:52.austerity. Is that the right thing for Europe to be doing? First of
:55:52. > :56:00.all, I welcome the budget negotiation de Prime Minister came
:56:00. > :56:04.back with. It is an important message we have to send to the
:56:04. > :56:06.European Commission that they cannot continue to spend while at
:56:06. > :56:12.home national budgets and family budgets are under severe
:56:12. > :56:18.restriction. That is an important message. We also have to recognise,
:56:18. > :56:24.under the very complex funding formula for the European Union,
:56:24. > :56:30.between what we pay in and get out, the United Kingdom will continue to
:56:30. > :56:37.contribute more to the EU with a large structural funds going to
:56:37. > :56:41.eastern Europe. For as at home, we have to continue to fight for an
:56:41. > :56:45.adequate share of the Common Agricultural Policy budget, support
:56:45. > :56:51.our farmers and food industry, which has continued to rise in
:56:51. > :56:54.times of recession. It is very, very important.
:56:54. > :56:59.What about the fact that Peace IV has been secured, money for
:56:59. > :57:02.community groups and some of the project I mentioned. That is
:57:02. > :57:07.secured, and there was a lot of talk that was not going to be the
:57:07. > :57:12.case. Yes, it has been reduced by 75
:57:12. > :57:15.million euros. We are 150 million euros better off than we thought we
:57:15. > :57:23.would have been three years ago when it looked as if they would
:57:23. > :57:27.have been no Peace Fund. My friends in Europe ask, how long does it
:57:27. > :57:33.take to make peace in Northern Ireland? This has been going on
:57:33. > :57:37.since 1994. It is a good question. The UK, I have to say, in the
:57:37. > :57:42.events of recent weeks, has brought it back to people saying to us,
:57:42. > :57:46.what is happening? We thought you were moving on. Why have these
:57:46. > :57:48.things happening on the streets? Bid you think people resent the
:57:48. > :57:51.fact they are still paying for something they thought had been
:57:51. > :57:56.resolved and frankly should have been resolved?
:57:56. > :57:59.No, I think Europe has been very generous towards Northern Ireland
:57:59. > :58:05.and understanding, and that is why the fund was brought about all of
:58:05. > :58:08.those years ago. It has contributed to bringing us to where we are. We
:58:08. > :58:17.now have to look at the challenge as to where we're going in the
:58:17. > :58:23.future, and there are still problems, we know that. Because
:58:23. > :58:30.Europe's Gies has moved towards the east -- Europe's agrees have moved
:58:30. > :58:34.towards the east, we're not on the screens across BBC World or Sky
:58:34. > :58:40.News, there are these atrocities happening everywhere no beamed
:58:40. > :58:44.across the world. Do you take the view that the glass
:58:44. > :58:50.is half full in that the money is secured, or have empty in that it
:58:50. > :58:55.is not as great as it has been in the past?
:58:55. > :58:59.First of all, I fundamentally disagreed with Diane Dodds's
:58:59. > :59:03.analysis of David Cameron's actions. If it had been up to David Cameron
:59:03. > :59:08.we would not have had a peace forum. The ministers in the south of
:59:08. > :59:11.Ireland where the people who picked Peace IV on the table. We also need
:59:11. > :59:18.to take into account that what happened last week is a bad deal
:59:18. > :59:23.for Ireland. Agriculture, growth and fisheries is down 47.7 billion
:59:24. > :59:28.euros. That is going to have a knock-on effect on all of those
:59:28. > :59:34.parties in Westminster who voted for a cut in the EU budget. They're
:59:34. > :59:39.going to have to address that between those people here, needing
:59:39. > :59:47.a single farm paid in -- payments, those people needing the Rural
:59:47. > :59:50.Development Fund. We do not know the impact of this �47.7 billion --
:59:50. > :59:54.47.7 billion euros cut. But a we have to live within our budget, in
:59:54. > :59:58.Ireland, in the UK and in the European Union, as well.
:59:58. > :00:05.Austerity has kicked in and we cannot keep spending money that we
:00:05. > :00:12.have -- that we do not have. The contribution from the member-
:00:12. > :00:15.states amount to 67p per person per day. You pay more for a cup of tea.
:00:15. > :00:20.The total contribution spread out over a seven-year period, when you
:00:20. > :00:27.look at the deficit in the USA, it is more for one here and the seven-
:00:27. > :00:31.year budget for the EU. I think there has been a lot of
:00:31. > :00:36.scaremongering and unfortunately we are going to see agriculture,
:00:36. > :00:41.development, fisheries, peace and the cohesion and social funds, the
:00:42. > :00:45.structural funds, that have also been cut. Regarding peace, we need
:00:45. > :00:52.to look at what the first and Deputy First Minister would bring
:00:52. > :01:00.in Brussels last week, showcasing the project that benefit from peace.
:01:00. > :01:04.22,000 project from 1995 until the present day. At the last round,
:01:04. > :01:08.900,000 participants. Her baby you respond to that? That
:01:08. > :01:14.is a very different view from yours. There are others, clearly, within
:01:14. > :01:19.the European Union, who would share Martina Anderson's analysis?
:01:19. > :01:22.European Parliament, for example, will continuously vote for budget
:01:22. > :01:26.rises. It seems to think it lives in a
:01:26. > :01:33.parallel universe, that what is happening in member states, what is
:01:33. > :01:36.happening with families is not what happens to them. It will be a
:01:36. > :01:41.disgrace next session if the European Parliament vote to have a
:01:41. > :01:46.private vote on whether to support the budget or not. In terms of
:01:46. > :01:51.peace, it is hugely important that we have got this piece money. This
:01:51. > :01:56.was by no means certain. This is a result of a huge amount of work at
:01:56. > :02:05.that has been done since 2009 with the commission, with the committee
:02:05. > :02:08.in order to secure that. We need to set -- it goes to the real victims
:02:08. > :02:11.of terrorism and support our young people.
:02:11. > :02:17.The Quick Word on the horsemeat. I do not know if it is a scandal
:02:17. > :02:20.order controversy at this stage. We were told it was not a food scare,
:02:20. > :02:25.but if the day that passes it looked more and more like a food
:02:25. > :02:29.scare. I think this is becoming a tragedy for the whole food industry.
:02:29. > :02:33.And there is a big European dimension. Yes, and Europe will
:02:33. > :02:38.have good deal with this. We have always said you have controlled the
:02:38. > :02:43.standards of the food we eat and water we drink. Now we do not know
:02:43. > :02:48.what is going into it. I have set for a long time, there is no such
:02:48. > :02:52.thing as cheap food. Food costs a lot to produce and people are
:02:52. > :03:00.cutting corners. If this is criminals, if it is being driven
:03:00. > :03:04.down by the retailers trying to sell four burgers for a pound, I am
:03:04. > :03:14.sorry, you cannot get meat as cheap as that.
:03:14. > :03:14.
:03:14. > :03:18.At how good we sort this problem and it?
:03:18. > :03:23.When we are told -- we are told that there is a breach in the EU
:03:23. > :03:27.food labelling laws and that needs sorted. We're also told of the food
:03:27. > :03:35.is safe to consume, but that is only if the horses themselves have
:03:35. > :03:45.not had better remain medicine administered. -- veteran any
:03:45. > :03:47.
:03:47. > :03:50.medicine. -- veterinarian medicine. Our I fear that we're going to get
:03:50. > :03:55.further news, if we listen to the Secretary of State. We will get
:03:55. > :04:00.further news on this this week. It is a scandal of mammoth proportions,
:04:00. > :04:04.but we should differentiate between the traceability systems our
:04:04. > :04:08.farmers use and quality produced they have in Northern Ireland.
:04:08. > :04:13.Jim Nicholson, Diane Dodds, Martina Anderson, thank you for joining us.
:04:13. > :04:17.Let's hear a final thought from Alex Kane and Nick Garbutt.
:04:17. > :04:22.Can we deal with this food scare? Day by day, this is getting more
:04:22. > :04:25.worrying for consumers. Yes, and I think they are right, this is a
:04:25. > :04:31.serious problem. Trust and confidence is what we were trying
:04:31. > :04:36.to defend. How can you possibly have trust now in what is in that
:04:36. > :04:39.burka and confidence about how safe it is? We have been told it is a
:04:39. > :04:44.labelling issue and not a food safety issue, but how do we know
:04:44. > :04:49.that? Would be these horses come from? We do not know. There has
:04:49. > :04:52.been evidence of identity theft going on recently. It is also a
:04:52. > :04:58.problem for Northern Ireland. It is a Europe-wide problem, but it is a
:04:58. > :05:04.problem for our producers here at. Yes, but what concerns me about
:05:04. > :05:09.this, all the big suppliers like Tesco, I assumed because they are
:05:09. > :05:13.the primary be to work they will have checked.
:05:13. > :05:20.From the main supplier but also from the seven or eight sub-
:05:20. > :05:24.contractors. That does not seem to have been done. When you are