:00:37. > :00:42.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband's on
:00:43. > :00:47.the war path over pay day loans, your energy bill and what he calls
:00:48. > :00:52.the bedroom tax. His spinners say he's resurgent though the polls
:00:53. > :00:55.don't show it. We'll be talking to his right hand woman, Labour's
:00:56. > :01:00.Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman. From resurgent to insurgent. Nigel Farage
:01:01. > :01:08.won an award this week for being a political insurgent. We'll be
:01:09. > :01:12.talking to the UKIP leader. And Harriet hates, hates, hates page
:01:13. > :01:22.three. She wants rid of it. But what do you think? We sent Adam out with
:01:23. > :01:24.some balls. Stay. It is good fun for the guys.
:01:25. > :01:27.And coming up here: Alasdair the guys. What
:01:28. > :01:31.And coming up here: Alasdair McDonnell joins me to discuss his
:01:32. > :01:33.attack on the DUP and Sinn Fein and moving into opposition. Plus, the
:01:34. > :01:35.Tanaiste, Eamon Gilmore, on engaging with Northern Ireland. Join me
:01:36. > :01:46.later. row over the super sewer rumbles on.
:01:47. > :01:50.And with me, fresh from their success at yesterday's Star Wars
:01:51. > :01:55.auditions, Darth Vader. Obi Wan Kenobi and R2D2. Congratulations on
:01:56. > :02:00.your new jobs. We'll miss you. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.
:02:01. > :02:03.First, the talks with Iran in Geneva. They ended last night
:02:04. > :02:14.without agreement despite hopes of a breakthrough. America and its allies
:02:15. > :02:17.didn't think Iran was prepared to go far enough to freeze its nuclear
:02:18. > :02:20.programme. But some progress has been made and there's to be another
:02:21. > :02:23.meeting in ten days' time, though at a lower level. The Foreign
:02:24. > :02:26.Secretary, William Hague, had this to say a little earlier. On the
:02:27. > :02:35.question of, or will it happen in the next few weeks? There is a good
:02:36. > :02:41.chance of that. We will be trying again on 20th, 21st of November and
:02:42. > :02:46.negotiators will be trying again. We will keep an enormous amount of
:02:47. > :02:54.energy and persistence behind solving this. Will that be a deal
:02:55. > :03:00.which will please everyone? No, it will not. Compromises will need to
:03:01. > :03:05.be made. I had discussions with Israeli ministers yesterday and put
:03:06. > :03:09.the case for the kind of deal we are looking
:03:10. > :03:10.the case for the kind of deal we are interests of the whole world,
:03:11. > :03:15.including interests of the whole world,
:03:16. > :03:20.the world, to reach a diplomatic agreement we can be confident in in
:03:21. > :03:24.this issue. This otherwise will threaten the world with nuclear
:03:25. > :03:27.proliferation and conflict in the future. The interesting thing about
:03:28. > :03:36.this is that it seems future. The interesting thing about
:03:37. > :03:41.prepared to go far enough over the Iraq heavy water plutonium reactor
:03:42. > :03:53.it is building. The people who took the toughest line - the French.
:03:54. > :04:00.France has always had a pretty tough line on Iran. They see it as a
:04:01. > :04:05.disruptive influence in Lebanon. I am reasonably optimistic a deal will
:04:06. > :04:09.be done later this month when the talks reconvene. Western economic
:04:10. > :04:16.sanctions have had such an impact on Iran domestic league. They have
:04:17. > :04:22.pushed inflation up to 40%. Dashes-macro domestically. The new
:04:23. > :04:29.president had a campaign pledge saying, I will deal with sanctions.
:04:30. > :04:36.I actually think, by the end of this year, we will see progress in these
:04:37. > :04:44.talks. Should we be optimistic? The next round of talks will be at
:04:45. > :04:49.official level. The place to watch will be Israel. The language which
:04:50. > :04:54.has been coming out of there is still incredibly angry, incredibly
:04:55. > :05:04.defensive. They do not want a deal at all. Presumably John Kerry has to
:05:05. > :05:13.go away and tried to get Israel to be quiet about it, even if they
:05:14. > :05:23.cannot be happy about it. They cannot agree to a deal which allows
:05:24. > :05:27.the Iraq reactor with plutonium heavy water. You do not need that
:05:28. > :05:35.with a peaceful nuclear power programme will stop that is why the
:05:36. > :05:42.Israelis are so nervous. If there is an international deal, Israel could
:05:43. > :05:49.still bomb that but it would be impossible. The French tactics are
:05:50. > :05:54.interesting. It says the French blocked it in part because they are
:05:55. > :05:59.trying to carry favour with Israel but also the Gulf Arab states, who
:06:00. > :06:05.are really nervous about and Iranians nuclear capability. Who is
:06:06. > :06:12.that? Saudi Arabia. Newsnight had a story saying that Pakistan is
:06:13. > :06:19.prepared to provide them with nuclear weapons. You are right about
:06:20. > :06:25.Saudi Arabia. They are much more against this deal than Israel. Who
:06:26. > :06:29.is Herman van Rompuy's favourite MEP? It is probably not Nigel
:06:30. > :06:32.Farage. He plummeted to the bottom of the EU president's Christmas card
:06:33. > :06:36.list after comparing him to a bank clerk with the charisma of a damp
:06:37. > :06:45.rag. And he's been at it again this week. Have a look. Today is November
:06:46. > :06:50.the 5th, a big celebration festival day in England. That was an attempt
:06:51. > :06:53.to blow up the Houses of Parliament with dynamite and destroy the
:06:54. > :07:00.Constitution. You have taken the Dahl, technocratic approach to all
:07:01. > :07:05.of these things. What you and your colleagues save time and again - you
:07:06. > :07:09.talk about initiatives and what you are going to do about unemployment.
:07:10. > :07:16.The reality is nothing in this union is getting better. The accounts have
:07:17. > :07:21.not been signed off for 18 years. I am now told it is 19 and you are
:07:22. > :07:25.doing your best to tone down any criticism. Whatever growth figures
:07:26. > :07:30.you may have, they are anaemic. Youth unemployment in the
:07:31. > :07:35.Mediterranean is over 50% in several states. You will notice there is a
:07:36. > :07:40.rise in opposition dashed real opposition. Much of it ugly
:07:41. > :07:47.opposition, not stuff that I would want to link hands with. And Nigel
:07:48. > :07:56.Farage joins me now. Let me put to you what the editor of the Sun had
:07:57. > :08:00.to say. He says, UKIP will peak at the European election and then it
:08:01. > :08:05.will begin to get marginalised as we get closer to 2015 because there is
:08:06. > :08:12.now that clear blue water between Labour and the Tories. What do you
:08:13. > :08:16.say to that? There may be layered blue water on energy pricing but on
:08:17. > :08:21.Eastern Europe, there is no difference at all. When Ed Miliband
:08:22. > :08:26.offers the referendum to match Cameron, even that argument on
:08:27. > :08:32.Europe will be gone. The one thing that will keep UKIP strong, heading
:08:33. > :08:36.towards 2015, is if people think in some constituencies we can win. I
:08:37. > :08:41.cannot sit here right now and say that will be the case. If we get
:08:42. > :08:45.over the hurdle of the European elections clearly, I think there
:08:46. > :08:52.will be grounds to say that UKIP can win seats in Westminster. You are
:08:53. > :08:58.going to run? Without a shadow of a doubt. I do not know which
:08:59. > :09:02.constituency. The welcome I got in Edinburgh was not that friendly.
:09:03. > :09:07.Edinburgh is not everything in Scotland. I think we have a
:09:08. > :09:13.realistic chance of winning those elections. If we do that, we will
:09:14. > :09:18.have the momentum behind us. You might be the biggest party after the
:09:19. > :09:24.May elections. The National front is likely to do very well in France as
:09:25. > :09:29.well. They have won the crucial by-election in the South of France.
:09:30. > :09:39.Have you talked about joining full season in Parliament? The leader has
:09:40. > :09:43.tried to take the movement into a different direction than her father.
:09:44. > :09:49.The man she beat, to become leader, actually attended the BNP
:09:50. > :09:53.conference. The problem she has with her party and we have with her party
:09:54. > :09:58.is that anti-Semitism is too deep and we will not be doing a deal with
:09:59. > :10:05.the French national government. You can guarantee you will not be
:10:06. > :10:12.joining such groups. I can guarantee that. Let's move on to Europe. Let's
:10:13. > :10:16.accept that the pro-Europeans exaggerate the loss of jobs that
:10:17. > :10:24.would follow the departure of Britain from the UK. Is there no
:10:25. > :10:32.risk of jobs whatsoever? No risk whatsoever. There is no risk at all.
:10:33. > :10:40.There have been some weak and lazy arguments put around about this. We
:10:41. > :10:45.will go on doing business - go on doing trade with Europe. We will
:10:46. > :10:50.have increased opportunities to do trade deals with the rest of the
:10:51. > :10:59.world and they will create jobs. The head of Nissan, the head of Hitachi
:11:00. > :11:06.and CBI many other voices in British business, when they all expressed
:11:07. > :11:12.concern about the potential loss of jobs and incoming investment, we
:11:13. > :11:22.should just ignore them. With Nissan, the BBC News is making this
:11:23. > :11:28.a huge story. The boss did not say what was reported. He said there was
:11:29. > :11:33.a potential danger to his future investment. They have already made
:11:34. > :11:37.the investments. They have built the plant in Sunderland, which they say
:11:38. > :11:42.is operating well. We should be careful of what bosses of big
:11:43. > :11:47.businesses say. This man said they may have two leaves Sunderland if we
:11:48. > :11:51.did not join the euro. I do not take that seriously. As for the CBI, they
:11:52. > :11:56.wanted us to join the euro and now they do not. Even within the CBI,
:11:57. > :12:01.there is a significant minority saying, we do not agree with what
:12:02. > :12:05.the CBI director-general is saying. The former boss of the organisation
:12:06. > :12:12.is saying we need a referendum and we need a referendum soon. It
:12:13. > :12:18.depends on the renegotiation. There is not the uniformity. What we are
:12:19. > :12:23.beginning to see in the world, is, manufacturing and small businesses
:12:24. > :12:26.are a lot more voices saying, the costs of membership outweigh any
:12:27. > :12:36.potential benefit. If you look at the polls, if Mr Cameron does
:12:37. > :12:43.repatriate some powers and he joins with Labour, the Lib Dems, the
:12:44. > :12:47.Nationalists in Scotland and Wales, most of business, all of the unions
:12:48. > :12:56.to say we should stay in, you are going to lose, aren't you? In 1975,
:12:57. > :12:59.the circumstances were exactly the same. Mr Wilson promised a
:13:00. > :13:03.renegotiation and he got very little. The establishment gathered
:13:04. > :13:10.around him and they voted for us to stay in. I do not think that will
:13:11. > :13:16.happen now. The scales have fallen. We do not want to be governed by
:13:17. > :13:19.Herman Van Rompuy and these people. These people are Eurosceptic but
:13:20. > :13:24.they do not seem to feel strongly enough about it that they are going
:13:25. > :13:30.to defy all the major parties they vote for, companies that employ
:13:31. > :13:34.them, unions they are members of. I am absolutely confident there will
:13:35. > :13:38.be a lot voices in business saying, we need to take this opportunity to
:13:39. > :13:51.break free, give ourselves a chance of a low regulation lowball trader.
:13:52. > :14:08.-- global trade. In 1970 53 small publications said to vote yes. I am
:14:09. > :14:13.not contemplating losing. The most important thing is to get the
:14:14. > :14:18.referendum. If UKIP is not strong, there will not be a referendum.
:14:19. > :14:22.Earlier in the year, your party issued a leaflet about the remaining
:14:23. > :14:28.sample parents being able to come to this country. The EU will allow 29
:14:29. > :14:39.million Bulgarians and remaining is to come to the UK. That is
:14:40. > :14:50.technically correct but we both know that is not the case. It is an open
:14:51. > :15:01.door to these people. Why take the risk? By make out there are 29
:15:02. > :15:11.million people? I stand by that verdict. It is an open door. 29
:15:12. > :15:17.million are not going to come. They can if they want. Also 29 million
:15:18. > :15:22.people from France can come. After these countries have joined, we will
:15:23. > :15:29.do another leaflet saying that Mr Cameron wants to open the door to 70
:15:30. > :15:37.million people from Turkey. That is scaremongering. I would not say
:15:38. > :15:41.that. We have a million young British workers between 16 and 74
:15:42. > :15:45.without work. A lot of them want work and we do not need another
:15:46. > :15:50.massive oversupply in the unskilled labour market. Why did you have such
:15:51. > :16:01.a bad time on question Time this week? The folk that did not buy your
:16:02. > :16:04.anti-immigration stick. Do you think that group of people in the room was
:16:05. > :16:09.representative of the voters of Boston? What would make you think it
:16:10. > :16:12.was unrepresentative? When the county council elections took place
:16:13. > :16:16.this year in Boston, of the seven seats, UKIP won five and almost won
:16:17. > :16:20.the other two. I don't think that audience reflected that, but that
:16:21. > :16:24.doesn't matter. How an audience is put together, how a panel is put
:16:25. > :16:29.together, on one programme, it doesn't mean much at all. It shows
:16:30. > :16:33.that your anti-immigrant measure doesn't fly as easily as you hoped
:16:34. > :16:36.it would? The opinion polls which will be launched on Monday that we
:16:37. > :16:41.are conducting and nearing completion, they show two things.
:16:42. > :16:46.Firstly, an astonishing number of people who think it's irresponsible
:16:47. > :16:50.and wrong to open the doer to Romania and Bulgaria, secondly and
:16:51. > :16:53.crucially, a number of people whose vote in the European elections and
:16:54. > :16:56.subsequent general elections may be determined by the immigration
:16:57. > :16:59.issues. This does matter. It would be the perfect run group the
:17:00. > :17:04.European elections in May for you if a lot of Bulgarians and remainians
:17:05. > :17:08.flooded in. You would like that to happen? I think it will happen.
:17:09. > :17:12.Whether I like it or not, it will happen. You think it will be good
:17:13. > :17:17.for you, it will stir things up? If you say to people in poor countries,
:17:18. > :17:22.you can come here, get a job, have a safety net of a benefits system,
:17:23. > :17:25.claim child allowance for your kids in Bucharest, people will come You
:17:26. > :17:31.are ready with the arguments already? You will be disappointed if
:17:32. > :17:34.only ten turn up? Whether lots come or not we should. Taking the risk
:17:35. > :17:37.and yes, we are going to make it a major issue in the European
:17:38. > :17:41.election. Let's leave it there. Thank you very much, Nigel Farage.
:17:42. > :17:45.The summer of 2013 was not good for Ed Miliband, with questions over his
:17:46. > :17:48.leadership, low ratings and complaints about no policies. He
:17:49. > :17:52.bounced back with a vengeance at the Labour Conference in September,
:17:53. > :17:56.delivering a speech which this week won the spectator political speech
:17:57. > :17:59.of the year aword. In that speech he focussed on the cost-of-living and
:18:00. > :18:04.promised a temporary freeze on energy prices. Even said this. The
:18:05. > :18:11.next election isn't just going to be about policy. It's going to be about
:18:12. > :18:18.how we lead and the character we show. I've got a message for the
:18:19. > :18:27.Tories today. If they want to have a debate, about leadership and
:18:28. > :18:31.character, be my guest And if you want to know the difference between
:18:32. > :18:36.me and David Cameron, here is an easy way to remember it. When it was
:18:37. > :18:41.Murdoch v the McCanns, he took the side of Murdoch. When it was the
:18:42. > :18:45.tobacco lobby versus the cancer charities, he took the side of the
:18:46. > :18:50.tobacco lobby. When the millionaires wanted a tax cut as people pay the
:18:51. > :18:53.bedroom tax, he took the side of the millionaires. A come to think of it,
:18:54. > :18:57.here is an easier way to remember it. David Cameron was a Prime
:18:58. > :19:06.Minister who introduced the bedroom tax. I'll be the Prime Minister who
:19:07. > :19:12.repeals the bedroom tax There we go, that will go down with the party
:19:13. > :19:17.faithful on Tuesday. There will be a debate on the bedroom tax. Labour's
:19:18. > :19:26.Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman, joints me now. Let's begin with the
:19:27. > :19:31.bedroom tax or bedroom subsidy. Nearly 11% of people who've come off
:19:32. > :19:35.Housing Benefits all together after their spare room subsidy was
:19:36. > :19:39.stopped, isn't that proof that reform was necessary? No. I think
:19:40. > :19:43.that the whole way that the bet room tax has been attempted to be
:19:44. > :19:47.justified is completely wrong. What it's said is that it will actually
:19:48. > :19:52.help take people off the waiting lists by putting them into homes
:19:53. > :19:57.that have been vacated by people who've downsized by being
:19:58. > :20:00.incentivised by the bedroom tax, so basically if you are a council
:20:01. > :20:05.tenant or Housing Association tenant in a property with spare bedrooms,
:20:06. > :20:09.then because the penalty is imposed, you will move to a smaller property.
:20:10. > :20:12.That is the justification for it. But actually, something like 96% of
:20:13. > :20:15.the people who're going to be hit by the bedroom tax, there isn't a
:20:16. > :20:19.smaller property for them to move into. I understand that. Therefore
:20:20. > :20:23.they are, like the people in my constituency, if they have got one
:20:24. > :20:30.spare bedroom, they are hit by ?700 a year extra to pay and that is
:20:31. > :20:34.completely unfair As a consequence of people losing the subsidy for
:20:35. > :20:38.their spare room, they have decided to go out and get work and not
:20:39. > :20:43.depend on Housing Benefit at all? 11% of them. What's wrong with that?
:20:44. > :20:48.Well, they are going to review the way 2 the bedroom tax is working.
:20:49. > :20:53.What is wrong with that? But that's not working. That's the result of
:20:54. > :20:58.Freedom of Information, 141 councils provided the figures, 25,000 who've
:20:59. > :21:01.come off benefits, of the 233,000 affected, it's about 11%. These
:21:02. > :21:05.people were clearly able to get a job was having the Housing Benefit
:21:06. > :21:10.in the first place? But of course the people who're on the benefits
:21:11. > :21:13.who're not in work are always looking for work and many of them
:21:14. > :21:18.will find work which is a good thing, but for those who don't find
:21:19. > :21:22.work, or who find work where it's low-paid and need help with their
:21:23. > :21:26.rent, it's wrong to penalise them on the basis of the fact that their
:21:27. > :21:30.family might have grown up and moved away and so you have either got to
:21:31. > :21:34.move out of your home, away from your family and your neighbourhood,
:21:35. > :21:38.or you've got to stay where you are and, despite the fact that you are
:21:39. > :21:43.low-paid or unemployed, you have got to find an extra ?700 a year because
:21:44. > :21:46.of your rent. So it's very unfair The Government that was
:21:47. > :21:51.commissioning independent research on the impact of this work change
:21:52. > :21:54.and welfare policy, particularly on the impact on the most vulnerable,
:21:55. > :21:57.some of which you have been talking about there, shouldn't they have
:21:58. > :22:00.waited until you have got the independent research, that
:22:01. > :22:03.independent investigation before determining your policy? No. In
:22:04. > :22:08.fact, the Government should have waited until they'd have done their
:22:09. > :22:11.independent research before they bought into effect something and
:22:12. > :22:18.imposed it on people in a way which is really unfair. They could have
:22:19. > :22:21.known. Why didn't you wait? What they could have done is, they could
:22:22. > :22:26.have asked councils, are people going to be able to Manifest into
:22:27. > :22:29.smaller homes if we impose the bedroom tax and the answer from
:22:30. > :22:32.councils and Housing Associations would have been no, they can't move
:22:33. > :22:36.into smaller homes because which haven't got them there. They should
:22:37. > :22:40.have done the evaluation before they introduced the policy. We are
:22:41. > :22:44.absolutely clear and you can see the evidence, people are falling into
:22:45. > :22:47.rent arrears. Many people, it's a terrifying thing to find that you
:22:48. > :22:52.can't pay your rent, and some of the people go to payday loan companies
:22:53. > :22:56.to get loans to pay their rent. It is very, very unfair. The
:22:57. > :23:00.justification for it, which is people will move, is completely
:23:01. > :23:06.bogus. There aren't places for them to go. On the wider issue of welfare
:23:07. > :23:09.reform, a call for the TUC showed that voters support the Government's
:23:10. > :23:14.welfare reforms, including a majority of Labour voters. Why are
:23:15. > :23:17.you so out of touch on welfare issues, even with your own
:23:18. > :23:21.supporters? Nobody wants to see people who could be in a job
:23:22. > :23:26.actually living at the taxpayers' expense. That's why we have said
:23:27. > :23:29.that we'll introduce a compulsory jobs guarantee, so that if you are a
:23:30. > :23:33.young person who's been unemployed for a year, you will have to take a
:23:34. > :23:38.job absolutely have to take a job, and if you have been unemployed as
:23:39. > :23:42.somebody over 25, there'll be a compulsory thing after two years of
:23:43. > :23:46.unemployment. So if you have been on welfare two years? So the main issue
:23:47. > :23:51.about the welfare bill actually is people who're in retirement who need
:23:52. > :23:54.support. We have said for the richest pensioners, they shouldn't
:23:55. > :23:59.have to pay their winter fuel allowance. My point wasn't abouts
:24:00. > :24:03.the sub stance, it's about how you don't reflect public opinion --
:24:04. > :24:08.substance. The Parliamentary aid said the political backlog of
:24:09. > :24:13.benefits and social security is "not yet one that we have won. Labour
:24:14. > :24:18.must accept that they are not convincing on these matters,". Well,
:24:19. > :24:22.redo have to convince people and explain the policies we have got and
:24:23. > :24:26.the view we take. So, for example, for pensioners, who're well off, we
:24:27. > :24:28.are saying they don't need the Winter Fuel Payment that. 's me
:24:29. > :24:33.saying to you and us saying to people in this country, we do think
:24:34. > :24:37.that there should be that tightening. For young people, who've
:24:38. > :24:40.been unemployed, they should be offered jobs but they've got to take
:24:41. > :24:46.them. So yes, we have to make our case. OK. The energy freeze which we
:24:47. > :24:50.showed there, on the speech, as popular. The living wage proseles
:24:51. > :24:54.have been going down well as well. Why is Labour's lead oaf the
:24:55. > :24:58.Conservatives being cut to 6% in the latest polls? Ed Miliband's own
:24:59. > :25:03.personal approval rating's gotten worse. Why is that? I'm not going to
:25:04. > :25:08.disdues ins and outs of weekly opinion polls with you or anybody
:25:09. > :25:11.else because I'm not a political commentator, but let me say to you
:25:12. > :25:17.the facts of what's happened since Ed Miliband's been leader of the
:25:18. > :25:23.Labour Party. We have got 1,950 New Labour councillors, all of those...
:25:24. > :25:25.But you're... All those who've won their seats against the
:25:26. > :25:29.Conservatives or the Liberal Democrats and no, Andrew you don't
:25:30. > :25:34.always get that in opposition. In 1997 after Tony Blair was elected,
:25:35. > :25:41.the Tories carried on losing council seats. Exceptional circumstances and
:25:42. > :25:46.these days Mr Blair was 25% ahead in the polls. You were six. The economy
:25:47. > :25:50.grew at an annual rate of 3% in the third quarter just gone. Everybody,
:25:51. > :25:54.private and public forecasters now saying that Britain in this coming
:25:55. > :25:58.year will grow faster than France, Italy, Spain, even Germany will grow
:25:59. > :26:01.faster. Your poll ratings are average when the economy was
:26:02. > :26:06.flatlining, what happens to them when the economy starts to grow?
:26:07. > :26:11.Well, I've just said to you, I'm not a political commentator or a pundit
:26:12. > :26:14.on opinion polls. We are putting policies forward and we are holding
:26:15. > :26:18.the Government to account for what they are doing and we think that
:26:19. > :26:22.what they did opt economy pulled the plugs from the economy, delayed the
:26:23. > :26:25.recovery, made it stagnate and we have had three years lost growth. I
:26:26. > :26:32.understand that, but it's now starting to grow. Indeed. If you are
:26:33. > :26:35.no political commentator, let me ask you this, you anticipated the
:26:36. > :26:39.growth, so you switched your line to no growth to this is growth and
:26:40. > :26:43.living standards are rising. If the economy does grow up towards 3% next
:26:44. > :26:46.year, I would suggest that living standards probably will start to
:26:47. > :26:50.rise with that amount of growth. What do you do then? We have not
:26:51. > :26:53.switched our line because the economy started to grow. All the way
:26:54. > :26:58.along, we said the economy will recover, but it's been delayed and
:26:59. > :27:02.we have had stagnation for far too long because of the economic
:27:03. > :27:07.policies. We have been absolutely right to understand the concerns
:27:08. > :27:10.people have and recognise that they are struggling with the
:27:11. > :27:14.cost-of-living. Sure. And we are right to do that. What kind of
:27:15. > :27:20.living standards stuck to rise next year? -- start to rise next year. I
:27:21. > :27:25.hope they will. For 40 months of David Cameron's Prime Ministership,
:27:26. > :27:28.for 39 of those, wages have risen slower than prices, so people are
:27:29. > :27:33.worse off. I understand that. You will know that the broader
:27:34. > :27:35.measurement, real household disposable income doesn't show that
:27:36. > :27:40.decline because it takes everything into account. Going around the
:27:41. > :27:47.country, people feel it. They say where's the recovery for me. Living
:27:48. > :27:51.standards now start to rise? If that happens, what is your next line?
:27:52. > :27:53.There is a set of arguments about living standards, the National
:27:54. > :27:59.Health Service, about the problems that there is in A, which caused
:28:00. > :28:05.-- are caused by the organisation. I can put forward other lines. All
:28:06. > :28:10.right. Let me ask you one other question If no newspapers have
:28:11. > :28:14.signed up to the Government-backed Labour-backed Royal Charter on press
:28:15. > :28:19.regular lace by 2015 and it looks like the way things are going none
:28:20. > :28:23.will have, if you are in power, will a Labour Government legislate to
:28:24. > :28:27.make them? They don't have to sign up to the Royal Charter, that's not
:28:28. > :28:30.the system. What the Royal Charter does is create a recogniser and
:28:31. > :28:34.basically says it's for the newspapers to set up their own
:28:35. > :28:38.regulator. They are doing that. My question is... Let me finish. If
:28:39. > :28:42.they decide to have nothing to do with the Royal Charter that was
:28:43. > :28:46.decided in Miliband's office in the wee small hours, will you pass
:28:47. > :28:50.legislation to make them? The newspapers are currently setting up
:28:51. > :28:55.what they call... I know that, Harriet Harman. Just let me finish.
:28:56. > :28:58.OK. Because the newspapers are setting up the independent Press
:28:59. > :29:03.Standards Organisation. Right. If it is independent, as they say it is,
:29:04. > :29:06.then the recogniser will simply say, we recognise that this is
:29:07. > :29:10.independent and the whole point is that, in the past when there's been
:29:11. > :29:13.skaen deals a tend press have really turned people's lives upside down
:29:14. > :29:19.and the press have said OK we'll sort things out, leave it to us,
:29:20. > :29:22.then they have sorted things out but a few years later they have slipped
:29:23. > :29:26.back, all this recogniser will do is check it once every three years and
:29:27. > :29:30.say yes, you have got an independent system and it's remained independent
:29:31. > :29:34.and therefore that is the guarantee things won't slip back. Very
:29:35. > :29:38.interesting. Thank you for that. That's really interesting that if
:29:39. > :29:43.they get their act right, you won't force the alternative on them. We
:29:44. > :29:49.want the system as set forward by Leveson which is not statute and
:29:50. > :29:53.direct regulation. I want to stick with the press because I want to
:29:54. > :29:57.ask, is this a British institution or an out-of-date image for a by
:29:58. > :30:02.gone age. The Sun's Page 3 has been dividing the nation since it first
:30:03. > :30:07.appeared way back in 1970. That's 43 years ago. Harriet Harman's called
:30:08. > :30:24.for it to be removed, so we sent Adam out to ask whether the topless
:30:25. > :30:36.photographs should stay or go. We have asked people if page three
:30:37. > :30:46.should stay or go. Page three. What do you think? Nothing wrong with it
:30:47. > :30:58.at all. I think it is cheap and exploits women. It is a family
:30:59. > :31:08.newspaper. Should it stay or go? Go. I will look like the bad guy. It
:31:09. > :31:18.should go. You have changed your mind. It is free choice. Girls do
:31:19. > :31:31.not have to be photographed. Old men get the paper just for that. Know
:31:32. > :31:36.when your age does that? Not really. Dashes-macro know what your age.
:31:37. > :31:46.Page three girls, should they stay or go? I am not bothered. There are
:31:47. > :31:50.other ways of getting noticed. Page three of the Sun newspaper every
:31:51. > :31:59.day, there is a woman with no top on. We got rid of that about 40
:32:00. > :32:07.years ago in Australia. I am not in favour of censorship. It has been
:32:08. > :32:12.long enough. It can stay there. What is wrong with it? We want to
:32:13. > :32:18.encourage children to read the newspapers. I do not want my
:32:19. > :32:25.children to look at that. It is degrading. Do you think we will see
:32:26. > :32:31.the day when they get rid of it? Yes, I do. I am wondering if I can
:32:32. > :32:44.turn this into some kind of a shelter. It is tipping it down. I
:32:45. > :32:50.think the council should do something about their car parks!
:32:51. > :32:59.Mother nature, the human body. It should stay. Is some people like it,
:33:00. > :33:05.that is fine. I have nothing against it. You know what has surprised me,
:33:06. > :33:12.lots of women saying it should stay. Maybe they are seeing it as
:33:13. > :33:20.empowering. As I have a baby daughter in there, I am happy to see
:33:21. > :33:29.it go. Imagine my grandad opening up his paper and they're being my bats!
:33:30. > :33:37.It should go. There is nothing wrong with it. He wants it to go. What
:33:38. > :33:46.about people who think that page three should be banned? Idiots. Do
:33:47. > :33:55.you know a girl called Lacey, aged 22, from Bedford? Good luck to her.
:33:56. > :34:02.I do not know her as a person that I have heard she is nice. What about
:34:03. > :34:10.her decision to be on page three? Nothing to lose. Do you think she
:34:11. > :34:17.has made Bedford proud? That is not hard. What have we learned? More
:34:18. > :34:27.people want page three to stay down for it to go. Most people do not
:34:28. > :34:33.really seem to care, do they? You have heard a range of views. I am
:34:34. > :34:39.not arguing it should be banned. I have not argued for it to be banned
:34:40. > :34:51.but I have disapproved of it since the 1970s. You do not think it
:34:52. > :34:56.should be banned? I do not think there should be dictating content
:34:57. > :35:00.but I do think, if you arrive from outer space in this country in
:35:01. > :35:05.21st-century Britain, and asked yourself what was the role of women
:35:06. > :35:09.in society... To stand in their knickers and nothing else, I think
:35:10. > :35:20.women have more to aspire to than to be able to take their clothes off in
:35:21. > :35:24.public. The sun no longer has the circulation, or the political
:35:25. > :35:28.importance, that it had in the 1980s when page three was at its height.
:35:29. > :35:35.Aren't people just voting with their feet anyway? The market is sorting
:35:36. > :35:41.this out. Half the number of people buy it now than they did 20 years
:35:42. > :35:45.ago. Until the time the sun does not have page three any more, I am
:35:46. > :35:52.entitled to my view that it is outdated and wrong. I am happy to
:35:53. > :36:03.establish that you do not want to ban it. What should happen? Should
:36:04. > :36:08.people boycott the paper? I have never implied or said it should be
:36:09. > :36:15.banned. I have always been forthright. Should people boycott
:36:16. > :36:20.the paper? I have not called for a boycott. The women's movement, of
:36:21. > :36:25.which I am part, and this is not about politicians censoring the
:36:26. > :36:31.press. I am part of the movement which says women can do better than
:36:32. > :36:38.taking off their clothes and being in their knickers in the newspapers.
:36:39. > :36:45.Why don't you do something about it? I am doing something about it by
:36:46. > :36:50.saying it is outdated. I am not doing anything more about it. Should
:36:51. > :36:56.people buy the paper as long as there is a page three? Would you
:36:57. > :37:03.like to say to viewers, as long as page three is in the sand, you
:37:04. > :37:08.should not buy it? Dashes-macro be Son. I am saying, wake up to what
:37:09. > :37:13.the role of women in society should be, which is more than page three.
:37:14. > :37:19.If they changed it in Australia, which is where Rupert Murdoch came
:37:20. > :37:24.from, why can they not change it in this country? You're watching the
:37:25. > :37:26.Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes... I'll be talking
:37:27. > :37:40.Hello, and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. What
:37:41. > :37:48.now for the SDLP as the issue of moving into opposition appears to
:37:49. > :37:53.divide the party? If I had my way, we would be in opposition by
:37:54. > :37:58.Christmas. We had 60 years in opposition and we know what it is
:37:59. > :38:01.like. The party leader, Alasdair McDonnell, joins me live in the
:38:02. > :38:04.studio. Plus, he's described claims the Irish government has become
:38:05. > :38:07.disengaged from the political process here as petty and unhelpful.
:38:08. > :38:10.I'll be joined by the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs and Tanaiste,
:38:11. > :38:13.Eamon Gilmore. To discuss all of that and more, the journalist and
:38:14. > :38:15.author Susan McKay and political blogger Alan Meban are my guests
:38:16. > :38:24.today. Hundreds of SDLP delegates gathered
:38:25. > :38:29.in Armagh this weekend for the party's annual conference. The party
:38:30. > :38:32.leader claimed the DUP and Sinn Fein had let people down, delivering bad
:38:33. > :38:37.politics and poor government, and the SDLP insists it can do better.
:38:38. > :38:40.But will the voters agree? Our political correspondent, Martina
:38:41. > :38:49.Purdy, was at the conference. There are some flashing images in her
:38:50. > :38:54.report. A hug for luck from his daughter, but our voters ready to
:38:55. > :38:59.embrace Alasdair McDonnell and the SDLP? He insist they are, claiming
:39:00. > :39:10.the DUP and Sinn Fein have failed to deliver. People feel badly let down.
:39:11. > :39:14.A lot of people out there, the DUP and Sinn Fein by the parties of
:39:15. > :39:21.disappointment, false promise, of poor government and bad politics.
:39:22. > :39:26.The SDLP leader blamed Eulas for the flanks deadlock and told Republicans
:39:27. > :39:28.the shocking revelations about state collusion with loyalist
:39:29. > :39:35.paramilitaries were no excuse for a violent past. The IRA must tell the
:39:36. > :39:42.truth as well. No IRA atrocity can ever justify Unionist politicians
:39:43. > :39:49.dismissing collusion. Such talk is insulting to victims, survivors and
:39:50. > :39:52.is insulting to the hundreds of honest RUC officers who hunted down
:39:53. > :40:00.loyalist killers as well as IRA killers. As for the SDLP, he told
:40:01. > :40:04.the conference it was ready to confound critics who claimed its
:40:05. > :40:12.best days are behind it. Together, we shall overcome. Alistair
:40:13. > :40:16.McDonnell seized the leadership of the SDLP with a promise to rebuild,
:40:17. > :40:22.and the test of that will come in six months time and European and
:40:23. > :40:25.local government elections. He says success will depend on a new
:40:26. > :40:32.generation of voters, a generation very much in evidence. I joined the
:40:33. > :40:37.SDLP this year because I am a very strong socialist and I was
:40:38. > :40:43.interested in joining a party that was committed to being against
:40:44. > :40:49.balance. When you see the number of motivated people around me today,
:40:50. > :40:54.you can see they are on the rise. This MLA help improve the party's
:40:55. > :40:58.vote and Ward the SDLP must not change course by going into
:40:59. > :41:05.opposition. If you go into opposition without having a clear
:41:06. > :41:11.strategy, to work from a position of influence, you cannot go into the
:41:12. > :41:18.political wilderness. It is a view echoed by one of the party's
:41:19. > :41:23.bounders. No, we had what over 60 years in opposition and know what it
:41:24. > :41:28.is like. This thing is imperfect in the way it is being led but we will
:41:29. > :41:33.stick in there and we take on the issues and the people who are making
:41:34. > :41:42.the issues. But the deputy leader thinks differently. So does the
:41:43. > :41:45.leader for Southdown. That is what a democratic system is based on,
:41:46. > :41:51.opposition leading for change, and if I had my way we would be in
:41:52. > :41:55.opposition by Christmas. Alex Attwood, the party's candidate for
:41:56. > :42:01.Europe, incest the SDLP will prevail. The leader of the SDLP,
:42:02. > :42:04.Alasdair McDonnell, is with me now. You talked about the core values of
:42:05. > :42:08.the SDLP being reconciliation, social justice and prosperity. It's
:42:09. > :42:14.a catchy headline, but what does it actually mean? It means we believe
:42:15. > :42:22.there has to be reconciliation between the people and to define
:42:23. > :42:26.that further, there has to be a reconciliation or a coming together
:42:27. > :42:32.with the North, between the north and South of Ireland and between
:42:33. > :42:37.Ireland and Britain, and old animosities and hostilities must be
:42:38. > :42:42.left behind. It is clear that people don't reconcile easily and we need
:42:43. > :42:48.to create a tolerance and a space for a accommodation and then embrace
:42:49. > :42:55.the change and indifference. What will the SDLP do to facilitate
:42:56. > :43:00.that? I suspect party leaders would disagree with the language. Attack
:43:01. > :43:07.would not disagree, but what will the SDLP do to achieve at? I
:43:08. > :43:12.continuously reach out to people in all walks of life, church leaders
:43:13. > :43:17.and give them the benefit of support, and there is no quick fix.
:43:18. > :43:22.We have been stuck with this for a number of years. There should have
:43:23. > :43:27.been a more robust reconciliation. We depend on the government for a
:43:28. > :43:32.shared integration strategy that has not appeared, or an effective one
:43:33. > :43:38.has not appeared. We have to bring down the barriers between people, I
:43:39. > :43:41.do not want people to be all the same but we have to bring down some
:43:42. > :43:48.barriers that have been thrown up over the last 40 years. You talk
:43:49. > :43:51.about a prosperity process. What is the meat on the bone as far as that
:43:52. > :43:55.is concerned? Where does the money come from? The Irish government does
:43:56. > :43:59.not have much in the British government has made clear everything
:44:00. > :44:05.we get will come from the block grant. You can steal without
:44:06. > :44:12.effectively in isolation. There are young people and we saw plenty of
:44:13. > :44:17.that in loyalist protests last year, young people have no hope in this
:44:18. > :44:22.city. There are young people with no hope, high levels of unemployment
:44:23. > :44:26.and immigration. We have talked about peace and the political
:44:27. > :44:29.process but what we have to do is ensure there are job opportunities
:44:30. > :44:34.for people and that the ordinary people out there get some benefit
:44:35. > :44:42.and derive some benefit from peace. We were promised by the various
:44:43. > :44:48.prime ministers that they would be a fund here, we had all the debate
:44:49. > :44:54.around corporation tax yet nothing has come to pass, there has been no
:44:55. > :44:59.special funding initiative to pump our economy here and boost our
:45:00. > :45:04.economy to a situation where people feel secure. I am deeply concerned
:45:05. > :45:07.about young people on the margins across our society who have no hope
:45:08. > :45:13.and to feel that peace has not brought them much benefit. The issue
:45:14. > :45:17.of opposition seems to be one that is causing a problem to your party.
:45:18. > :45:22.There are mixed messages, demands from some in the party to move into
:45:23. > :45:26.opposition are louder, Margaret Ritchie said the party should be in
:45:27. > :45:31.opposition by Christmas, others like Seamus Mallon and Patsy McGlone said
:45:32. > :45:38.you have to stay and change things from the inside. What is the SDLP's
:45:39. > :45:43.formal position? We are an open, democratic political party, we don't
:45:44. > :45:47.take dictation from the top and I don't want to dictate from the top.
:45:48. > :45:53.This issue has been raised over the last 18 months and there are people
:45:54. > :45:57.in frustration at times who think we would be better disassociation
:45:58. > :46:01.ourselves from the poor government and the failures of the Executive.
:46:02. > :46:09.Do you agree with them? Should you consider our position? There are
:46:10. > :46:14.discussions in the party, I have produced a bit of paper but it is in
:46:15. > :46:18.a very early stage, I have asked others to produce their ideas and
:46:19. > :46:24.over time, the SDLP will come to terms with this, but I am large, we
:46:25. > :46:29.have gone into politics and I agree much with what Seamus Mallon said,
:46:30. > :46:33.we had years in opposition, we went into politics to be constructive and
:46:34. > :46:40.play our part. So your gut feeling is you should stay there are? A week
:46:41. > :46:45.is a long time in politics and you cannot anticipate what stupidity is
:46:46. > :46:49.down the road. What would be the issue that would force you out of
:46:50. > :46:53.government? I cannot anticipate a breaking point down the road, but if
:46:54. > :47:00.the DUP and Sinn Fein continue the route of exclusion where the rest of
:47:01. > :47:04.us are pushed to the margins, where there is little or no consultation
:47:05. > :47:08.on any issue, and a sort of thing that people are very angry about and
:47:09. > :47:15.why it has surfaced again is planning. Would that be distraught
:47:16. > :47:19.that breaks the camel's back? The planning Bill has annoyed the hell
:47:20. > :47:24.out of people and people are saying there was a good planning Bill going
:47:25. > :47:28.through but the public want to be consulted more Ireland planning
:47:29. > :47:32.issues. Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness decided to throw a
:47:33. > :47:39.torpedo in and end up turning a good planning Bill into a toxic Bill
:47:40. > :47:45.where they were taking over control of big planning projects and riding
:47:46. > :47:49.roughshod over ordinary people. But doesn't the SDLP have to take a bit
:47:50. > :47:52.addition, shouldn't you as leaders say we are clear on this, if the
:47:53. > :47:58.following happens we will government, because at the moment it
:47:59. > :48:02.looks like you are not sure. Politics is the art of the
:48:03. > :48:07.possible. Those circumstances have not arrived. I will not make wild
:48:08. > :48:15.threats about leaving government or doing this or that, we will take
:48:16. > :48:19.them as they arise. The danger is, we are in aid talks process at the
:48:20. > :48:24.moment where we are trying to put some past issues to bed and we are
:48:25. > :48:30.trying to deal with them and there is no point of trying to put a gun
:48:31. > :48:33.to someone's head. You lost a broadside against the DUP and Sinn
:48:34. > :48:38.Fein. They will continue to bully you eat as you will not do anything
:48:39. > :48:45.about it tells you don't have a bottom line. That is not true. We
:48:46. > :48:50.will see what they will do. They are pushing hard, aren't they? You are
:48:51. > :48:54.guessing what they will do. We will push hard back and we will push hard
:48:55. > :49:00.on the issues that matter to ordinary people. Whether be a deal
:49:01. > :49:05.done as far as Richard Haass is concerned by Christmas? I think
:49:06. > :49:12.there will be progress. Whether there is a deal done, we are keen
:49:13. > :49:17.that the wider population, this started as a small thing, only a
:49:18. > :49:21.subcommittee at Stormont, and we asked to get the whole public
:49:22. > :49:29.consultation, something like 400 or 500 people. You are optimistic? I am
:49:30. > :49:33.very optimistic. We will leave it there. Alistair MacDonald, thank you
:49:34. > :49:36.for joining us. Now, the Assembly was back this week
:49:37. > :49:46.after its half-term break. Let's take a look at the week gone past in
:49:47. > :49:51.60 seconds with Gareth Gordon. A documentary on the period puts more
:49:52. > :49:59.pressure on Gerry Adams. I had no act or part to play in the killing
:50:00. > :50:02.or the burial. The party that brought this board are more
:50:03. > :50:08.interested in covering up for their paedophile protecting President.
:50:09. > :50:13.Edwin Poots turns it based on his gay blood bank into another attack
:50:14. > :50:19.on Mr Adams and annoys Sinn Fein. I think the Minister's approach was
:50:20. > :50:24.highly unprofessional. And the rule of the Attorney General is the size
:50:25. > :50:28.by a former Stormont minister. A lot of people think the office has got
:50:29. > :50:34.too big and it has gone into places where best not to go. And the
:50:35. > :50:40.regional element minister rebuilds a liking for Lycra. Members were
:50:41. > :50:42.discussing whether I was ready for racing myself in Lycra. I can tell
:50:43. > :50:55.you that I am. Let's hear from our guests, Susan
:50:56. > :51:01.McKay and Alan Meban. Picking up on what Alasdair McDonnell have to say,
:51:02. > :51:03.the big issue as far as opposition for the SDLP is concerned seems to
:51:04. > :51:11.be something the party has to deal with. There are divided issues.
:51:12. > :51:15.Allen, do you accept that the party needs a definitive position? It is
:51:16. > :51:20.something they have been talking about for the last two years, part
:51:21. > :51:24.of the last leadership election, it came up again with Dolores Kelly and
:51:25. > :51:29.this year Margaret Ritchie added, you need to have an internal
:51:30. > :51:37.discussion to decide their strategy otherwise it will become like the
:51:38. > :51:43.DUP and one of those -- like the UUP and drive them apart. My point was
:51:44. > :51:47.the need to state their bottom line or the other parties will push
:51:48. > :51:52.because they think they can get away with anything. You don't have to say
:51:53. > :51:56.your bottom line out loud but you need to know what it is. Do you
:51:57. > :52:01.think the SDLP knows what it's bottom line is? No, I think they are
:52:02. > :52:05.hoping the planning Bill is not the bottom line but the only have one
:52:06. > :52:10.minister and very little power to stand up and fight against the rest
:52:11. > :52:17.was that it is a tricky problem for the party. Yes, I think in the
:52:18. > :52:20.present circumstances where Sinn Fein has gone peaceful, it is
:52:21. > :52:25.difficult for the SDLP to see what it is therefore because in many ways
:52:26. > :52:33.Martin McGuinness sounds more like John Hume then Doctor McDonald, and
:52:34. > :52:37.I think his speech was dull, it was too long, even in his interview
:52:38. > :52:40.today he was clearly caught by the divisions within the party and that
:52:41. > :52:46.just makes the party look weak and confused. There is obviously this
:52:47. > :52:50.gap in the party where there is a generation missing, where there
:52:51. > :52:55.wasn't a proper succession from the early party leaders are the John
:52:56. > :53:00.Hume and Seamus Mallon generation, and now you have young people coming
:53:01. > :53:05.in but not that middle-aged group of people who have been building their
:53:06. > :53:10.positions firmly. Alan, we had that banner headline, reconciliation,
:53:11. > :53:17.social justice, prosperity. It sounds good, it made it onto the
:53:18. > :53:20.news, but what did it mean? There was very little substance that said
:53:21. > :53:24.here are things we will do, things you will see on your doorstep,
:53:25. > :53:28.little about putting money into people's wallops, it did not have
:53:29. > :53:36.those specific things to sell to an electorate. And getting money from
:53:37. > :53:42.the Republic is just unrealistic at the moment. We will talk to you
:53:43. > :53:44.later. On this Remembrance Sunday, leading politicians from the
:53:45. > :53:47.Republic have joined services here to honour the war dead. The
:53:48. > :53:50.Taioseach, Enda Kenny, was in Enniskillen. And earlier this
:53:51. > :53:53.morning, the Tanaiste and Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs joined
:53:54. > :53:57.the Secretary of State and other dignitaries to lay a wreath at the
:53:58. > :54:04.Cenotaph in Belfast. Eamon Gilmore is with me now. Thank you for
:54:05. > :54:08.joining us. Has the public understanding of remembrance and the
:54:09. > :54:17.wearing of the poppy changed in the Republic? I think it has. There is a
:54:18. > :54:25.stronger sense that we need to commemorate our history together.
:54:26. > :54:30.Over 200 people across the island of Ireland fought in the First World
:54:31. > :54:35.War. By 1945, there were 50,000 people from the Republic fighting
:54:36. > :54:41.fascism in the British uniform, and there is a strong sense we need all
:54:42. > :54:47.of us, in our own way, to commemorate what people did and
:54:48. > :54:50.these wars. Can I ask why you and the Taoiseach choose to come north
:54:51. > :54:56.to take part in commemorations rather than fitting part in
:54:57. > :55:00.commemorations in the Republic? We do have a day of commemoration in
:55:01. > :55:08.July when we commemorate all the war dead. But today you were in the
:55:09. > :55:14.North. Yes, we did this last year, we have done so again today because
:55:15. > :55:17.we recognise there is a strong tradition of remembrance in Northern
:55:18. > :55:22.Ireland and want to associate the arrows to Vermont with that. Can we
:55:23. > :55:25.move on to broader politics? You have been criticised for not being
:55:26. > :55:31.as fully engaged with the political process here as you might be a high
:55:32. > :55:34.amongst others, Micheal Martin and other commentators like Brian Feeney
:55:35. > :55:40.and Denis Bradley. Do you take those criticisms seriously? I think
:55:41. > :55:45.criticism by opposition leaders in the South are just that, there has
:55:46. > :55:48.been a tradition in the size that we would have an all-party approach to
:55:49. > :55:55.Northern Ireland and I regret that Bain of oil appear to be playing it
:55:56. > :55:59.for party advantage. -- Fianna Fail we have representatives in Northern
:56:00. > :56:04.Ireland, both in Belfast and Armagh. I was here on Friday, the
:56:05. > :56:08.North-South ministerial Council discussing issues relating to the
:56:09. > :56:16.economy and health services, things that matter, I was here at the SDLP
:56:17. > :56:22.conference with the Secretary of State and I am here today. You will
:56:23. > :56:24.have heard Alasdair McDonnell say yesterday that any Richard Haass
:56:25. > :56:33.deal that is forthcoming needs to be jointly guaranteed by the two
:56:34. > :56:36.governments. You accept that? The two governments are the guarantors
:56:37. > :56:41.of the agreements and we have to guarantee what emerges from the
:56:42. > :56:46.house talks. I have met with Richard Haass on a number of occasions, I've
:56:47. > :56:53.met last week in Dublin and previously in New York and we are
:56:54. > :56:57.keeping in close contact, but he cannot deliver miracles. There has
:56:58. > :57:02.to be engagement and I believe there is engagement either political
:57:03. > :57:06.parties in Northern Ireland, and also by wider society because this
:57:07. > :57:13.is not just a political process, it is also a process that business and
:57:14. > :57:18.committee organisations and people in wider society need to be part of
:57:19. > :57:22.this process. You agree that the sticking point in the process is
:57:23. > :57:28.likely to be the past? That is the difficult issue to sort out? I think
:57:29. > :57:32.it is important that agreement is reached on flags and parades and
:57:33. > :57:36.that is important because of what we saw this summer and last year. The
:57:37. > :57:40.issue of the past has to be addressed and they way has to be
:57:41. > :57:44.found of dealing with the past because so many people in Northern
:57:45. > :57:52.Ireland are attacked by the past and it continues to invade the political
:57:53. > :57:56.process and discussions here. The plight of the Disappeared has been
:57:57. > :58:01.at the top of the agenda because of the BBC RTE programme on Monday. Do
:58:02. > :58:04.you think Gerry Adams has been damaged by the claim he was
:58:05. > :58:10.responsible for the murder of Jean McConville? First we have to see the
:58:11. > :58:15.bodies return. I met relatives of the Disappeared yesterday and today
:58:16. > :58:20.and relatives of people affected by the atrocities described and they
:58:21. > :58:26.need to have closure. I don't think there is a democracy in the world
:58:27. > :58:29.where a programme of that kind was made about a political leader, the
:58:30. > :58:33.leader would not have to address questions, but the immediate thing
:58:34. > :58:36.is that the families get back the bodies and are able to conclude
:58:37. > :58:47.their grieving. Thank you for joining us. Let's hear the final
:58:48. > :58:50.thoughts of our commentators. Susan. I am pleased to hear the Tanaiste
:58:51. > :58:54.talking in terms of the need for some kind of Comber fans of approach
:58:55. > :59:00.to what happened in the past because it is every week now, some painful
:59:01. > :59:05.scandal is emerging in relation to what happened to people, but it is
:59:06. > :59:09.tremendously moving to see interviews with people who were
:59:10. > :59:13.victims and as Eamon Gilmore said, the week before last we had victims
:59:14. > :59:18.of collusion coming forward, last week we heard from families of the
:59:19. > :59:22.Disappeared, but we knew about these families at the time that we signed
:59:23. > :59:26.up to the Good Friday Agreement. We have known for a long time that the
:59:27. > :59:30.accusation was out there that Gerry Adams was responsible. Nobody
:59:31. > :59:37.believes Gerry Adams was not in the IRA, so if we don't deal with this
:59:38. > :59:39.it will keep on coming back and it is intensely painful for the
:59:40. > :59:43.families involved. We are being dishonest about it. We knew about
:59:44. > :59:50.this when the Good Friday Agreement was signed. We need to move to the
:59:51. > :59:54.next phase. Alan, you have a finger on the pulse of the political mood.
:59:55. > :00:00.Do you think Gerry Adams was damaged? I don't think so, I think
:00:01. > :00:04.it added to the material that suggests he is uncomfortable talking
:00:05. > :00:10.about his past but I don't think it added anything new. He is a man who
:00:11. > :00:14.things do not stick to, and if he says the same line, I don't think he
:00:15. > :00:18.will change, I don't think the programme damaged him but I don't
:00:19. > :00:24.think it helped them. Do you think he will continue to lead Sinn Fein?
:00:25. > :00:26.I think he will wait until a quiet moment and then slide away. He will
:00:27. > :00:28.not let himself be pushed. more equipment so they can see
:00:29. > :00:42.cyclists. Back to you, Andrew. We learned this week that no more
:00:43. > :00:45.warships will be built at Portsmouth, the home of the Royal
:00:46. > :00:49.Navy since the days of the Mary Rose and Francis Drake. But has the city
:00:50. > :00:52.been sacrificed to save jobs on the Clyde in Scotland? Is England the
:00:53. > :00:56.loser in an effort to keep the United Kingdom intact? Let's speak
:00:57. > :01:08.to Eddie Bone, he leads the campaign for an English Parliament. Is
:01:09. > :01:08.England the loser in this attempt to keep the
:01:09. > :01:17.doubt, Andrew. We would look at it from the campaign for the English
:01:18. > :01:21.Parliament that the British governance is bribing the Scots to
:01:22. > :01:27.stay with the union at the cost of English jobs. What is the best
:01:28. > :01:31.outcome for England when Scotland votes in the referendum next year?
:01:32. > :01:35.We have got to have an English parliament. What I mean by that is
:01:36. > :01:41.an endless governor and with a first minister speaking on behalf of the
:01:42. > :01:46.people of England. -- and English government. If Scotland votes for
:01:47. > :01:52.independence, that is the union coming to an end. It will be
:01:53. > :02:00.dissolved legally. England would be going to negotiating table without
:02:01. > :02:05.true representation. The union continues but it continues without
:02:06. > :02:09.Scotland. I want to come back to my... That is the constitutional
:02:10. > :02:14.position. You may not agree with me but that is the constitutional
:02:15. > :02:20.position. Do you want Scotland to vote for independence next year? We
:02:21. > :02:26.want a fair deal with equality for England. If that can be maintained
:02:27. > :02:30.or England can have a fair deal, within the union, that is brilliant.
:02:31. > :02:34.Let's have a federal system are all the nations are treated equally. If
:02:35. > :02:43.that cannot happen and Scotland decides to stay, if Scotland goes,
:02:44. > :02:48.it is an independent England, isn't it? If Scotland votes to leave the
:02:49. > :02:52.union, what is left of the United Kingdom would be so dominated by
:02:53. > :02:58.England at Westminster would, in effect, Beale English Parliament,
:02:59. > :03:05.wouldn't it? I do not agree with you. I think that is a British, deny
:03:06. > :03:09.list approach. The act of union was a fusion with the King of England to
:03:10. > :03:14.the King of Scotland. That would come to an end. The Welsh are very
:03:15. > :03:19.concerned. They are a very small nation. If you have a botched
:03:20. > :03:23.British come English Parliament, the Welsh would be in a very vulnerable
:03:24. > :03:28.situation. They would not be listened to. Also a situation with
:03:29. > :03:31.Northern Ireland. There are voices in Northern Ireland talking about
:03:32. > :03:36.trying to reunite Northern Ireland. It would be a very volatile
:03:37. > :03:41.situation. Would you prefer England to become an independent nation
:03:42. > :03:46.separate from what was left of the UK, which would be Wales and
:03:47. > :03:51.Northern Ireland? Would you like to see England have a seat in the UN? I
:03:52. > :03:58.want their representation for the people of England. English jobs were
:03:59. > :04:05.sacrificed because the British government wanted Scotland to
:04:06. > :04:14.remain... You have answered that very quickly. I am -- very clearly.
:04:15. > :04:20.Would you want England, without Northern Ireland and Wales to become
:04:21. > :04:24.a separate nation state? If that is what it takes for people of England
:04:25. > :04:29.to have their representation - representation that looks at
:04:30. > :04:32.policies of the NHS, education very different from Wales and Northern
:04:33. > :04:37.Ireland - then so be it. Independence will need to be the way
:04:38. > :04:48.forward. We have a small window of opportunity that the federal system
:04:49. > :04:56.might still work. D1 indenting have a system like Scotland? -- do you
:04:57. > :05:03.want England to have a system like Scotland? What we need to do now is
:05:04. > :05:08.implement the process is to get their representation for England. I
:05:09. > :05:14.would urge your viewers to join our campaign because it is the only way
:05:15. > :05:19.to protect jobs in England, protect the NHS, protect education.
:05:20. > :05:21.Otherwise we will see the people in England continually penalised by the
:05:22. > :05:27.British government is trying desperately to save the union by
:05:28. > :05:33.giving more to Scotland and Wales. Nice to talk to you. Helen, on this
:05:34. > :05:37.business of the Clyde versus Portsmouth, it would have been
:05:38. > :05:41.pretty inconceivable of the British government that believes in the
:05:42. > :05:47.union to have allowed the Clyde to close. That would have been a
:05:48. > :05:51.disaster. It would have been. It's dumped Nicola Sturgeon. Hang on a
:05:52. > :05:54.minute, if there was Scottish independence, England were not allow
:05:55. > :05:59.its warships to be built in a foreign country. She was unable to
:06:00. > :06:04.admit there were any downsides to Scottish independence. It would be
:06:05. > :06:09.dangerous for Scotland to talk about this. You have a Lib Dem and a
:06:10. > :06:14.Conservative MP with reasonable majorities. They will find that a
:06:15. > :06:19.killer on their doorstep in the next election. There are no results in
:06:20. > :06:25.this for Mr Cameron. He has one MP and he will be lucky to have two.
:06:26. > :06:30.And the South of England, I know Portsmouth is quite an industrial
:06:31. > :06:34.area, but the South of England is overall Tory territory. He has
:06:35. > :06:38.backed the Clyde where there are no Tory votes. The Tory problem in
:06:39. > :06:42.Scotland is crucial. The trend to look out for is the rise of English
:06:43. > :06:47.nationalism within the Conservative Party. They have the word Unionist
:06:48. > :06:51.in their official title. If, in election after election, they failed
:06:52. > :06:55.to win a significant presence in Scotland, and they are failing to
:06:56. > :07:01.win a majority in Westminster because of that, it is not hard to
:07:02. > :07:09.imagine that in ten years time that would be a party which has more
:07:10. > :07:14.autonomy. One person we know who does not sign up to that. David
:07:15. > :07:19.Cameron is a romantic Unionist at heart he may say that are not any
:07:20. > :07:25.vote in Scotland but he want to keep the union together. With the Clyde,
:07:26. > :07:29.you saw a rival together of economic and political interests. It is
:07:30. > :07:33.economic or the case the greatest shipbuilding capability in the
:07:34. > :07:36.United Kingdom is in the Clyde. It is politically very helpful for this
:07:37. > :07:40.government to say to people in Scotland, look at the benefits of
:07:41. > :07:45.being in the United Kingdom and, under their breath, or in the case
:07:46. > :07:51.of Alistair Carmichael to a camera, look what might go if you leave!
:07:52. > :07:55.That came together very conveniently to the government. Now, how do you
:07:56. > :07:59.like your politicians? Squeaky clean with an impeccable past? Or are you
:08:00. > :08:01.happy for them to have a few skeletons in the closet? Well, last
:08:02. > :08:05.week the Toronto Mayor Rob Ford admitted smoking crack cocaine. He
:08:06. > :08:08.said he took the drug about a year ago whilst in a drunken stupor. So,
:08:09. > :08:12.what impact do confessions have on a political career? In a moment, we'll
:08:13. > :08:21.hear what our panel has to say, but first, take a look at this. Yes I
:08:22. > :08:26.have smoked crack cocaine. Am I an addict? No. Have I tried it?
:08:27. > :08:32.Probably one of my drunken stupor is, about a year ago. I have used
:08:33. > :08:39.drugs in the past. I have used class a drugs in the past. About 30 years
:08:40. > :08:45.ago at university, I did smoke cannabis. I took cannabis is a few
:08:46. > :08:52.times at university and it was wrong. Have you snorted cocaine? I
:08:53. > :09:17.tried to but unsuccessfully years ago. I sneezed. The people around
:09:18. > :09:24.you who took cocaine, they went... Is it better to confess or the that
:09:25. > :09:30.get you into even more hot water? It is absolutely better. The confession
:09:31. > :09:37.by Jacqui Smith was without glamour. Finding a Labour politician who once
:09:38. > :09:42.smoked cannabis 25 years ago... I do not think it makes you think that
:09:43. > :09:46.she cannot be a serious politician. Politicians should brace thing about
:09:47. > :09:52.them which everyone knows. In the case of Ed Miliband, he should not
:09:53. > :10:03.deny being geeky. That would reek of in authenticity. The Tory MP meant
:10:04. > :10:09.to be regarded as a rising star, turns out he was claiming to heat
:10:10. > :10:14.his horses stables at the expense of the tax payer. He had made a
:10:15. > :10:17.generous claim for energy bills in his constituency home. He went
:10:18. > :10:21.through the papers and found he had been using it to heat the stables
:10:22. > :10:27.and he laid it all out and did the right thing. He was completely
:10:28. > :10:35.honest. Is that the end of it? It will still haunt in because energy
:10:36. > :10:40.is such a big issue. He was right to be honest about it. Helen was
:10:41. > :10:45.saying, absolutely, you need to be honest about your past. Harriet
:10:46. > :10:49.Harman said she smoked pot at university. If you have smoked pot,
:10:50. > :10:57.you can have a front line career. If you have taken class a drugs, you
:10:58. > :11:00.cannot have a front line career. There is the politician confessing
:11:01. > :11:04.and the remarkable willingness of the public to forgive. It is
:11:05. > :11:09.enlightened and progressive to forgive a politician for an affair
:11:10. > :11:14.or taking soft drugs at university. To smoke crack cocaine and demand be
:11:15. > :11:19.mad of following the Mayor of Toronto does astonishes me. There
:11:20. > :11:25.was an example in America a few years ago. It was crack cocaine. He
:11:26. > :11:33.was elected having confessed to smoking crack cocaine. I draw the
:11:34. > :11:38.line around class a drugs. We will put the team on to investigate him.
:11:39. > :11:41.Help to Bible come back into the headlines again. Mr Cameron will
:11:42. > :11:44.surroundings by the people who are benefiting from buying their homes
:11:45. > :11:46.on this scheme in the benefiting from buying their homes
:11:47. > :11:51.on this scheme in the same way that this is that you used to visit those
:11:52. > :11:56.who had bought their council houses. It will become hugely politicised.
:11:57. > :12:03.The Bank of England thinks that unemployment will drop late 2014,
:12:04. > :12:09.early 2015. They will put interest rates up. Those with 95% mortgages
:12:10. > :12:14.will have two find an extra ?400 a month to pay them off. I would not
:12:15. > :12:26.be surprised if David Cameron is setting up himself with this
:12:27. > :12:35.trouble. They will not want to raise interest rates. Mark Carney was very
:12:36. > :12:39.careful to give himself three get out clauses. If unemployment hits a
:12:40. > :12:43.certain level, Key has three measures which have to be fulfilled
:12:44. > :12:47.before he goes ahead and raises interest rates. As a Tory
:12:48. > :12:51.strategist, would you rather go into the election with low and implement
:12:52. > :13:01.or low interest rates? I think they would stick to low interest rates.
:13:02. > :13:05.-- low unemployment. It is not just panellists who are raising questions
:13:06. > :13:12.about it, it is senior figures - people in senior economic positions.
:13:13. > :13:15.They are saying the scheme is fine at the moment. David Cameron will be
:13:16. > :13:20.surrounded by people who have taken mortgages out at low levels and it
:13:21. > :13:26.is all fine right now but if interest rates go up, it will not be
:13:27. > :13:30.cosy. That's all folks. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two
:13:31. > :13:33.at midday. I'll be back next Sunday at the normal time of 11am.
:13:34. > :13:44.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.