0:00:39 > 0:00:42Morning everyone and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44I'm Sarah Smith and I'll be bringing you your essential briefing
0:00:44 > 0:00:47on all the top political stories this week.
0:00:47 > 0:00:50She's done the easy bit, now comes the hard part.
0:00:50 > 0:00:52As we move on to trade and transition talks with the EU,
0:00:52 > 0:00:57just what sort of deal is the Prime Minister aiming for?
0:00:57 > 0:01:00The issue of trade across the Irish border is likely to dominate
0:01:00 > 0:01:02those talks, we'll speak to the Northern Ireland
0:01:02 > 0:01:05Secretary James Brokenshire about what he thinks a solution
0:01:05 > 0:01:08to the problem could look like.
0:01:08 > 0:01:10Momentum, the group set up to support Jeremy Corbyn,
0:01:10 > 0:01:11is facing allegations it's trying to take over the Labour
0:01:14 > 0:01:17And here - Sammy Wilson of the DUP and John O'Dowd of Sinn Fein discuss
0:01:17 > 0:01:18the Brexit border deal.
0:01:18 > 0:01:23We'll also have the UUP, SDLP and Alliance and expert
0:01:23 > 0:01:23analysis in an extended programme - in half an hour.
0:01:23 > 0:01:26Is the government doing enough? in half an hour.
0:01:31 > 0:01:35All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:35 > 0:01:40And with me today to try to make sense of is all, three journalists
0:01:40 > 0:01:43who are in full alignment with this week's political developments.
0:01:43 > 0:01:45Tim Shipman, Helen Lewis and Toby Young.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47The cliche that a week is a long time in politics has
0:01:47 > 0:01:49never been more apt.
0:01:49 > 0:01:51As Theresa May first appeared to be the brink of collapse,
0:01:51 > 0:01:54and then claimed victory with a deal to allow Brexit talks to move
0:01:54 > 0:01:56on to the next phase.
0:01:56 > 0:01:58Deal or no deal?
0:01:58 > 0:02:00The question that took Theresa May to Brussels not
0:02:00 > 0:02:02once but twice this week.
0:02:02 > 0:02:04On Monday it seemed it was all sorted.
0:02:04 > 0:02:06Time to move onto talks about trade.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09Then in stepped Arlene Foster.
0:02:09 > 0:02:13Northern Ireland must leave the European
0:02:13 > 0:02:16Union on the same terms as the rest of the United Kingdom.
0:02:16 > 0:02:19So lunch was left to go cold in Brussels as the
0:02:19 > 0:02:21PM rushed home to try and save the deal.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24The problem ran along the Irish border.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27Did promises of regulatory alignment mean Northern
0:02:27 > 0:02:30Ireland would operate differently from the rest of the UK?
0:02:30 > 0:02:32Unionist alarm bells could be heard in
0:02:32 > 0:02:36Westminster where Theresa May relies on their support.
0:02:36 > 0:02:39While others saw their chance to tell their own
0:02:39 > 0:02:43bespoke Brexit deal.
0:02:43 > 0:02:45So back to the drawing board and a chance for
0:02:45 > 0:02:47Labour to stick the boot in.
0:02:47 > 0:02:48What an embarrassment.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51Shambles.
0:02:51 > 0:02:53The last 24 hours have given a new meaning to
0:02:53 > 0:02:55the phrase coalition of chaos.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58There was a tricky moment for the Brexit
0:02:58 > 0:03:01secretary as he was quizzed over his economic impact studies that don't
0:03:01 > 0:03:06actually exist.
0:03:06 > 0:03:08So there isn't one, for example, on the automotive
0:03:08 > 0:03:11sector.
0:03:11 > 0:03:13On the automotive sector.
0:03:13 > 0:03:14Is there one on aerospace?
0:03:14 > 0:03:15No.
0:03:15 > 0:03:17One on financial services?
0:03:17 > 0:03:20I think the answer is going to be no to all of
0:03:20 > 0:03:21them.
0:03:21 > 0:03:22Right.
0:03:22 > 0:03:24By the Chancellor admitted the Cabinet has not yet
0:03:24 > 0:03:26debated future European trading relations.
0:03:26 > 0:03:28The Cabinet has had general discussions about how Brexit
0:03:28 > 0:03:30negotiations but we haven't had a specific, er, mandate of the
0:03:30 > 0:03:33position.
0:03:33 > 0:03:37At Prime Minister's Questions Brexiteers reminded the PM
0:03:37 > 0:03:41they too had lines they wouldn't cross.
0:03:41 > 0:03:50Will she apply a new coat of paint to her red lines because I
0:03:50 > 0:03:53fear on Monday they were beginning to look a little bit pink.
0:03:53 > 0:03:54Talks through the night on Thursday and
0:03:54 > 0:03:56finally, white smoke.
0:03:56 > 0:03:57Tweeted by Jean-Claude Juncker's chief of staff
0:03:57 > 0:03:59to signal a deal had been done.
0:03:59 > 0:04:004am Friday.
0:04:00 > 0:04:02The red eye back to Brussels, the Brexit Secretary's
0:04:02 > 0:04:04face told the story of a long night.
0:04:04 > 0:04:09A tweak of the words and a deal agreed.
0:04:09 > 0:04:11Sufficient progress has now been made on the strict
0:04:11 > 0:04:12terms of the divorce.
0:04:12 > 0:04:15Not everyone was happy.
0:04:15 > 0:04:17There are still matters there that we would have liked
0:04:17 > 0:04:19to have seen clarified.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21The whole thing is a humiliation.
0:04:21 > 0:04:23In a letter yesterday Environment Secretary Michael Gove
0:04:23 > 0:04:26said voters could change the deal if they don't like it.
0:04:26 > 0:04:35At the next general election.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38Let's unpack a week of remarkable political developments with our
0:04:38 > 0:04:42panel.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45Tim, the papers are claiming a marvellous victory for Theresa May,
0:04:45 > 0:04:51but this is a problem of her own making she managed to dig herself
0:04:51 > 0:04:55out of?The government announced immediately they had got a deal and
0:04:55 > 0:04:59it took them two and a half weeks to nail it down. It is worth
0:04:59 > 0:05:03remembering that when she went off to Brussels to Jean-Claude Juncker
0:05:03 > 0:05:09who said, don't come here unless you are ready to go. Theresa May kicked
0:05:09 > 0:05:13him out of his office for an hour while she begged Arlene Foster to
0:05:13 > 0:05:18get in line and initially, it wasn't happening because they hadn't nailed
0:05:18 > 0:05:22it down. People say, why weren't all these civil servants and people who
0:05:22 > 0:05:27know about how to deal with these guys, engaged in this process? The
0:05:27 > 0:05:31separation between the Northern Ireland Office and Downing Street,
0:05:31 > 0:05:34the whip office was negligent and they should have been holding hands
0:05:34 > 0:05:38with the DUP and Tilly was taken over the line. Disaster was only
0:05:38 > 0:05:46narrowly averted. They were saying earlier in the week, this is a
0:05:46 > 0:05:50catastrophe and Theresa May needs to go.But she pulled it out in the
0:05:50 > 0:05:54end. We were talking about takeover plots, Theresa May might lose her
0:05:54 > 0:05:59job and now it is a victory.When you are talking about this, you have
0:05:59 > 0:06:03to divorce the theatre around it and the last-minute concessions, which
0:06:03 > 0:06:08will not end. The question is what happens when the Forge recedes.
0:06:08 > 0:06:12Everyone has something out of this deal because there is no clarity.
0:06:12 > 0:06:17Arlene Foster said they wanted clarity. Both sides when they get
0:06:17 > 0:06:21the clarity will be unhappy, but the question is what they will do about
0:06:21 > 0:06:27it.Toby, both people on both sides of the Brexit debate in the Tory
0:06:27 > 0:06:32party, who are claiming they are very, very happy. They can't all be
0:06:32 > 0:06:39happy.I am not surprised the Brexiteers our content. There are
0:06:39 > 0:06:43various things the remain as predicted couldn't be achieved. They
0:06:43 > 0:06:48thought they would be a backbench rebellion. Now that looks like the
0:06:48 > 0:06:53divorce bill will sail through. A lot of Remainers thought the state
0:06:53 > 0:07:03is of EU nationals would remain uncertain for long time. This makes
0:07:03 > 0:07:08no Deal Brexit less likely that was always the Remainers best of
0:07:08 > 0:07:13reversing the result of the referendum.Now we're left with the
0:07:13 > 0:07:18question, what does full alignment mean. David Davis asked that that
0:07:18 > 0:07:19this morning.
0:07:19 > 0:07:20It means outcomes.
0:07:20 > 0:07:21It means...
0:07:21 > 0:07:23If I arrived in two cars, they are next
0:07:23 > 0:07:24to each other.
0:07:24 > 0:07:26Well, Northern Ireland is next to the Republic of Ireland.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29Yes, and it will have next to regulations, it will be very
0:07:29 > 0:07:30similar.
0:07:30 > 0:07:32There will be some similarities.
0:07:32 > 0:07:34Again, the Prime Minister laid this out in her
0:07:34 > 0:07:35Florence speech.
0:07:35 > 0:07:37She said there are areas where we will want similar
0:07:37 > 0:07:39outcomes and we'll have similar methods to achieve them.
0:07:39 > 0:07:43There will be areas where we have similar
0:07:43 > 0:07:45outcomes where there will be different methods to achieve them.
0:07:45 > 0:07:49That's going to be true of a lot of product areas, a lot of
0:07:49 > 0:07:50manufacturing.
0:07:50 > 0:07:52There will be areas where we want different outcomes and
0:07:52 > 0:07:56we will use different methods.
0:07:56 > 0:08:01That was clear as mud, Toby, what do you think full alignment means?I
0:08:01 > 0:08:06don't think we should spend as much time as you seem to want to,
0:08:06 > 0:08:11discussing it. As Michael Gove clarified, it doesn't have any legal
0:08:11 > 0:08:16force. It doesn't have any binding, legal force. It hasn't got to the
0:08:16 > 0:08:20stage of the treaty. It might be difficult to unwind because it is
0:08:20 > 0:08:25the basis of an agreement. But nonetheless, it is not binding and a
0:08:25 > 0:08:31lot is left to play for.It is what got the DUP on-board, finding a form
0:08:31 > 0:08:37of words which could be what you wanted them to.People wanting
0:08:37 > 0:08:40immigration cut without the economy taking a hit. The same thing with
0:08:40 > 0:08:46the DUP, they want to stay aligned to prison, but they don't want their
0:08:46 > 0:08:49agriculture, Northern Ireland is one of the biggest industries, to take a
0:08:49 > 0:08:54massive hit from a hard border. So you are trying to reconcile two
0:08:54 > 0:09:01contradictory impulses. That Philip Hammond clip is extraordinary saying
0:09:01 > 0:09:04the Cabinet have a discuss where they think this ends up in the end.
0:09:04 > 0:09:10That is where the row will be. Number Ten is specifically briefing
0:09:10 > 0:09:18full alignment, so we haven't solved anything.It is a verb, he converge,
0:09:18 > 0:09:24I don't do converge, we have full alignment. The Conservative Party
0:09:24 > 0:09:28managed to get through a general election where they had half of
0:09:28 > 0:09:35their supporters hardline. This may help them keep the show on the road.
0:09:35 > 0:09:39We will be talking to all three of you throughout the programme.
0:09:39 > 0:09:41So it was the arrangements to avoid a hard border
0:09:41 > 0:09:43between Northern Ireland and the Republic that
0:09:43 > 0:09:45threatened to scupper progress in the Brexit talks.
0:09:45 > 0:09:47And there remains confusion over exactly what it
0:09:47 > 0:09:48is that's been agreed.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51Hopefully we can clarify some of that with the Secretary of State
0:09:51 > 0:09:54for Northern Ireland James Brokenshire.
0:09:54 > 0:09:58Thanks for coming in. Can we go back to the beginning of the week and the
0:09:58 > 0:10:04discussions with the DUP. Where you involved in that?It is worth
0:10:04 > 0:10:08stressing this is a fast-moving situation. When the Prime Minister
0:10:08 > 0:10:12was in Brussels at the start of the week, the text hadn't been agreed.
0:10:12 > 0:10:17That is why we've got the conclusion with the text effectively now being
0:10:17 > 0:10:21able to go on to the second phase. Where you part of the back and
0:10:21 > 0:10:26forward between Number Ten and the DUP?I don't want to get into the
0:10:26 > 0:10:30details, but I have been involved, supporting the Prime Minister and
0:10:30 > 0:10:34making sure we have got sufficient progress and why we have the benefit
0:10:34 > 0:10:40of moving into phase two, which is worth we can solve the issues with
0:10:40 > 0:10:42relation to Northern Ireland.He was a significant failure at the
0:10:42 > 0:10:50beginning of the week to flight to Brussels without the DUP agreeing on
0:10:50 > 0:10:56the text.It was a fast-moving situation.Why go for lunch with
0:10:56 > 0:11:02Jean-Claude Juncker if there wasn't agreed text?It was to continue the
0:11:02 > 0:11:05discussions.The Prime Minister didn't think she had a deal on
0:11:05 > 0:11:08Monday, she went to Brussels knowing there wasn't an agreement with the
0:11:08 > 0:11:14DUP.The text wasn't agreed, as I have underlined on a few occasions
0:11:14 > 0:11:18already in this interview. It is how we have secured what we needed to
0:11:18 > 0:11:24do. We needed to give that assurance in relation to Northern Ireland's
0:11:24 > 0:11:28constitutional status in ensuring trade between Northern Ireland and
0:11:28 > 0:11:32Great Britain could remain unfettered. That is important and we
0:11:32 > 0:11:37can now solve this on phase two.The agreement said there would be full
0:11:37 > 0:11:42alignment with the EU in the event of no deal. It doesn't say anything
0:11:42 > 0:11:46how you will avoid a hard border if there is a trade deal with the EU.
0:11:46 > 0:11:50You are looking at paragraph 49 of the agreement. First and foremost,
0:11:50 > 0:11:56this is about securing a free trade agreement. Secondly, if that isn't
0:11:56 > 0:12:00sufficient you move onto specific solutions to deal with the unique
0:12:00 > 0:12:04circumstances of Northern Ireland. Only through an agreed outcome, do
0:12:04 > 0:12:08you move on to the issue of alignment, which I'm sure we will
0:12:08 > 0:12:12discuss further.Your preferred option is to have the free trade.
0:12:12 > 0:12:19Absolutely.Nothing has been solved on how you avoid a hard border
0:12:19 > 0:12:22between Northern Ireland and the republic if you have a free-trade
0:12:22 > 0:12:29deal.We were never going to solve this in the first phase how this
0:12:29 > 0:12:34agreement, we want to secure is firmly in Ireland's interest, given
0:12:34 > 0:12:38the nature of trade between Ireland and the whole of the United Kingdom.
0:12:38 > 0:12:42That is why we go into this second phase with confidence we can secure
0:12:42 > 0:12:48the positive outcome, which is the best way to solve this.The Irish
0:12:48 > 0:12:53Taoiseach says it is clear in which way it is going. He says we believe
0:12:53 > 0:12:56the UK and Northern Ireland will remain in alignment with the EU. Is
0:12:56 > 0:13:03that your understanding?I think he underlines we could come to
0:13:03 > 0:13:06different arrangements. It wasn't about the same, somehow we would
0:13:06 > 0:13:12stay within the customs union, the single market. We are not. The text
0:13:12 > 0:13:15says clearly, we are leaving and Northern Ireland will be part of
0:13:15 > 0:13:23that. Having shared outcomes may mean we may achieve that to the same
0:13:23 > 0:13:28or substantially the same way, or very differently.It cannot be too
0:13:28 > 0:13:31different if you have to maintain this idea you don't have a hard
0:13:31 > 0:13:35border between Northern Ireland and the republic. How does this allow
0:13:35 > 0:13:39you to strike free trade deals with the United States for instance, if
0:13:39 > 0:13:42you have got to maintain either alignment or come to some of the
0:13:42 > 0:13:45United States for instance, if you have got to maintain either
0:13:45 > 0:13:47alignment or come to some other border solution?Let's take a couple
0:13:47 > 0:13:49of examples. In relation to data daylight, have your prescription
0:13:49 > 0:13:57service nor those -- north or south of the border. How that can converge
0:13:57 > 0:14:05between Ireland and the UK. Things like agriculture.Let's talk about
0:14:05 > 0:14:09agriculture. If we were to strike a free trade deal with the US, they
0:14:09 > 0:14:16have made it clear we will have to diverged from EU rules on some
0:14:16 > 0:14:19agricultural standards, like chlorine washed chicken, how can we
0:14:19 > 0:14:24do the kind of deal the US will insist on and still maintain these
0:14:24 > 0:14:30border arrangements?We are yet to get into those discussions.They
0:14:30 > 0:14:34have been to London and they have said, if we stay too closely aligned
0:14:34 > 0:14:39with the EU we will be able to get a deal with the US.We're not going to
0:14:39 > 0:14:43somehow compromise our food safety standards to have a race to the
0:14:43 > 0:14:46bottom. That is why knowing the integrated nature of the food sector
0:14:46 > 0:14:53on island, is why we said we are proud to look at alignment with
0:14:53 > 0:14:59agricultural standards.That tie your hands. Why does the former
0:14:59 > 0:15:02Brexit minister himself say it will handicap our ability to enter into
0:15:02 > 0:15:08free-trade arrangements?We have difference across the United Kingdom
0:15:08 > 0:15:11over some of these devolved issues. It doesn't create barriers within
0:15:11 > 0:15:19the UK market. We are compliant with the same rules as the EU and it is
0:15:19 > 0:15:23positive decisions we might take. When it comes down to this issue,
0:15:23 > 0:15:27there won't be this race to the bottom in relation to standards.It
0:15:27 > 0:15:32is important to understand. You are tying the government's hands in its
0:15:32 > 0:15:37ability to strike the free trade deals that was supposed to create
0:15:37 > 0:15:41the optimistic post Brexit future proclaimed by the government.It is
0:15:41 > 0:15:45why we want to yes, secure the positive free-trade agreement, Abbas
0:15:45 > 0:15:51Bogue agreement with our EU partners, but equally, which we
0:15:51 > 0:15:53don't have, the flexibility to negotiate trade deals around the
0:15:53 > 0:16:00world so have the benefit of having to do that.
0:16:00 > 0:16:04The answer to this free trade deals is how you manage the border between
0:16:04 > 0:16:09the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, that has not been answered.
0:16:09 > 0:16:12We've set up the framework, we've not been able to have these
0:16:12 > 0:16:17discussions yet. That's why it was so important, where it was a really
0:16:17 > 0:16:21positive achievement that Theresa May secured by moving into phase two
0:16:21 > 0:16:24where we can do just that. To look at all these different elements we
0:16:24 > 0:16:28been working hard on with the EU that need to be solved whether
0:16:28 > 0:16:32through the free trade agreement, whether through specific
0:16:32 > 0:16:39circumstances to meet these issues, and protecting the ability from
0:16:39 > 0:16:48people to move from Northern Ireland's, into the Republic, really
0:16:48 > 0:16:50importantly underlining the significance of the Good Friday
0:16:50 > 0:16:54Agreement.The Prime Minister significantly said no deal was
0:16:54 > 0:16:58better than a bad deal. What this means in Brussels as if there is no
0:16:58 > 0:17:02do we have to stay in full alignment with the rules and regulations, is
0:17:02 > 0:17:08that the possible?Is the document states, nothing is agreed until
0:17:08 > 0:17:14everything is agreed.In the situation of no deal, nothing would
0:17:14 > 0:17:19be agreed and that is the circumstance in which this deal
0:17:19 > 0:17:23kicks in...?This document doesn't commit in that way. We are not
0:17:23 > 0:17:29contemplating a notable situation. The Prime Minister has frequently
0:17:29 > 0:17:32contemplated that, saying no deal is better than a bad deal.I think it
0:17:32 > 0:17:38says this in a good way, to secure this positive outcome that agreement
0:17:38 > 0:17:44with our EU partners. We will only do that if it is acceptable. Under
0:17:44 > 0:17:49the no deal statements that the Prime Minister has made.When this
0:17:49 > 0:17:53agreement says, in the event of no deal, we will maintain full
0:17:53 > 0:17:59alignment, you say this doesn't mean no deal?This document doesn't deal
0:17:59 > 0:18:04with no deal. That's what I'm saying. Paragraph five...So in the
0:18:04 > 0:18:08absence of agreed solutions the UK will maintain full alignment with
0:18:08 > 0:18:14the rules of the customs union? Paragraph five scissors and
0:18:14 > 0:18:20agreement being reached...So you need an agreement before you have
0:18:20 > 0:18:24absence of agreed solutions.It is about the three tiered approach will
0:18:24 > 0:18:27take, free-trade agreements, dealing with unique circumstances and then
0:18:27 > 0:18:31moving onto the alignment issues. It is this three tiered approach that
0:18:31 > 0:18:36will inform the negotiations. This is why I say this provides us with a
0:18:36 > 0:18:40positive backdrop to go into phase two, to get positive outcomes in
0:18:40 > 0:18:43ensuring there is no barrier between the Republic of Ireland and Northern
0:18:43 > 0:18:50Ireland. I take the positive viewpoint, around getting agreement,
0:18:50 > 0:18:54securing that bright positive future for Northern Ireland and the UK as a
0:18:54 > 0:19:01whole which is what that does.James Brokenshire, thank you. Tim, are you
0:19:01 > 0:19:07a clearer? On what has been agreed? Much less clear. What is the scope
0:19:07 > 0:19:11of this alignment issue? If you listen to government ministers, and
0:19:11 > 0:19:14David Davis earlier and James has said nothing that contradicts that,
0:19:14 > 0:19:19you are talking about big areas like agriculture and energy. David Davis
0:19:19 > 0:19:23said it would cover four areas, is put to someone in the Irish
0:19:23 > 0:19:26government has said and covered 142 areas, there's quite a big gap
0:19:26 > 0:19:31between them and we haven't yet bridged that intellectually, it
0:19:31 > 0:19:36seems.And not much clearer on what if there is no deal.We would crash
0:19:36 > 0:19:39out which would be definitely worse than a bad deal. An appalling
0:19:39 > 0:19:44outcome. I think the whole issue of these agricultural standards is
0:19:44 > 0:19:48fascinating because it reveals the difference between the average Leave
0:19:48 > 0:19:54voter and the average person on the right, the free trader who is not
0:19:54 > 0:19:58worried about safety standards and is fine with chlorine tipped chicken
0:19:58 > 0:20:02but we no one that free-trade Dale got bounced out of contention one
0:20:02 > 0:20:06thing that revolted people with the idea of lower animal safety
0:20:06 > 0:20:10standards, food covered in bacteria then washed in chlorine. So you have
0:20:10 > 0:20:14one wing of the Tory party who are OK with that and people who voted
0:20:14 > 0:20:21Leave who are not.Is it still on the table, this idea of no deal?It
0:20:21 > 0:20:27has to be, until we've concluded a deal, because otherwise our
0:20:27 > 0:20:30negotiating position is weaker. In some ways the way that we've managed
0:20:30 > 0:20:34to agree on what the status of EU National 's would-be and what the
0:20:34 > 0:20:38role of the ECJ would be for eight years after we leave, suggest that
0:20:38 > 0:20:43even in the absence of a trade deal or even a transition deal being
0:20:43 > 0:20:46successfully negotiated we could nonetheless put a minimal deal in
0:20:46 > 0:20:50place which could guarantee the rights of UK National is here and
0:20:50 > 0:20:55British nationals in Europe. So in that way it makes no deal a little
0:20:55 > 0:21:01less unpalatable but I think we will still get a deal.Thanks for that.
0:21:01 > 0:21:03Well, discussions of what the government wants its final
0:21:03 > 0:21:05deal to look like also brings into focus what Labour's
0:21:05 > 0:21:06plans would be.
0:21:06 > 0:21:08Speaking this morning Labour's Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer
0:21:08 > 0:21:13argued that Britain should remain as close to the EU as possible.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16How we negotiate that agreement with the EU is a matter for
0:21:16 > 0:21:17negotiation.
0:21:17 > 0:21:20It doesn't mean it's cut and paste, but we do have a
0:21:20 > 0:21:23choice, do we want to stay aligned so we can trade successfully or do
0:21:23 > 0:21:24we want to tear apart?
0:21:24 > 0:21:26And I say we should stay aligned.
0:21:26 > 0:21:28We are talking about what sort of Britain we are
0:21:28 > 0:21:32going to be and what the next 40 or 50 years might look like.
0:21:32 > 0:21:33I don't think anybody voted to make it
0:21:33 > 0:21:37harder to trade with Europe.
0:21:37 > 0:21:40Emily Thornberry, Labour's shadow foreign affairs spokesperson, is
0:21:40 > 0:21:44with me now. Thank you for coming in. That was Keir Starmer this
0:21:44 > 0:21:49morning. I don't want to put words into his mouth or yours but I
0:21:49 > 0:21:53interpret that as saying, we are not staying in the single market, that
0:21:53 > 0:21:56is not the Labour position but we want to maintain many of the
0:21:56 > 0:22:00arrangements we have with the single market. Is that right?We've always
0:22:00 > 0:22:04said we have to accept the results of the referendum, we have some
0:22:04 > 0:22:09tests to be abided by to get a good deal so we need to be able to get
0:22:09 > 0:22:12the full advantage of access to the single market and the customs union.
0:22:12 > 0:22:17To achieve that what Keir Starmer seemed to be saying was that was a
0:22:17 > 0:22:21closely aligned to the rules and regulations of the EU, possibly even
0:22:21 > 0:22:24pay for access to the free market and while free movement of people
0:22:24 > 0:22:28wouldn't he said they should be easy movement of people from the UK to
0:22:28 > 0:22:31the EU and vice versa. Is that really respecting the referendum
0:22:31 > 0:22:36result?We have to leave the European Union that there's no
0:22:36 > 0:22:41reason why we don't need go a long way. It would not be respecting the
0:22:41 > 0:22:45referendum and the sentiment that has expressed during the referendum
0:22:45 > 0:22:49if we did not move, after leaving the European Union, to a system
0:22:49 > 0:22:52where we had fair rules and managed migration, so people could easily
0:22:52 > 0:22:58travel across Europe and those that we need to have an ox economy - this
0:22:58 > 0:23:07we need an our economy can stay and that will help us.If we are staying
0:23:07 > 0:23:10closely aligned to the rules and regulations of the EU why we have no
0:23:10 > 0:23:16say in the formation of those rules how is that taking back control?
0:23:16 > 0:23:20We're going to leave and it seems to us that people wanted to leave, they
0:23:20 > 0:23:24wanted some form of control over migration and fair rules and managed
0:23:24 > 0:23:27migration is what we want but they did not vote to lose their jobs
0:23:27 > 0:23:33offer their neighbours to lose their jobs. We need to prioritise the
0:23:33 > 0:23:35economy and trade when it came to negotiations and people should be in
0:23:35 > 0:23:40no doubt that our biggest trading partner is the European Union. It
0:23:40 > 0:23:44would be economically ridiculous for us to march off into the Atlantic
0:23:44 > 0:23:48and say, we are turning our backs on the European Union. To go into deals
0:23:48 > 0:23:54with them we'd need the same rules when it came to our exporting of
0:23:54 > 0:23:57carrots or anything else. If you want to export vacuum cleaners to
0:23:57 > 0:24:00Europe they need to have the same safety standards as the rest of
0:24:00 > 0:24:06Europe.Do you think people who voted to leave will be happy that we
0:24:06 > 0:24:11would follow and mirror the rules and regulations of EU when we have
0:24:11 > 0:24:16no say in their creation now, we become will takers and not makers?
0:24:16 > 0:24:22What we've said is that we need an interim period when we negotiate
0:24:22 > 0:24:26properly and have a long-standing relationship with EU. When it comes
0:24:26 > 0:24:29to exporting goods clearly we need the same standards and don't want to
0:24:29 > 0:24:33undercut European standards, nobody wants and implement controls, we
0:24:33 > 0:24:37need all these things to be less in Britain than in the rest of Europe,
0:24:37 > 0:24:42well, some Tories do but we don't and we are clear about that.That
0:24:42 > 0:24:47would constrain our ability to sign free trade deals with other
0:24:47 > 0:24:51countries. The more closely aligned we stay with EU the less movement we
0:24:51 > 0:24:57will have to sign a new deal with the USA for example.What we need is
0:24:57 > 0:25:00a custom-built arrangement between Britain and the rest of Europe. We'd
0:25:00 > 0:25:04need to be in a form of the customs union and closely aligned to the
0:25:04 > 0:25:08single market and that might give us room to make the that is something
0:25:08 > 0:25:12we need to be involved in negotiation...That is clearly of
0:25:12 > 0:25:17secondary importance to you, the ability to strike new deals with
0:25:17 > 0:25:22third countries.We've always been pragmatic, most of our trade has
0:25:22 > 0:25:26been with EU. We're just stating a fact and we shouldn't put the kibosh
0:25:26 > 0:25:30on that.Are you happy with the agreement Theresa May struck this
0:25:30 > 0:25:35week?Really don't understand it. I've looked at it, I don't
0:25:35 > 0:25:41understand. I think probably what she is doing is she's rubbed at some
0:25:41 > 0:25:45of her red lines, and that's good because you shouldn't go into
0:25:45 > 0:25:48negotiations with hard red lines like she has. I don't understand how
0:25:48 > 0:25:53on one hand she is saying she's going to align and on the other hand
0:25:53 > 0:25:57will be out of the single market on the customs union. It doesn't really
0:25:57 > 0:26:01make any sense to me.I thought that was the position you said Labour
0:26:01 > 0:26:04win, leaving the single market on the customs union but wanting to
0:26:04 > 0:26:09stay aligned to Europe and is regulations...They say they've
0:26:09 > 0:26:14swept any form of customs union of the table. That's what I understand.
0:26:14 > 0:26:17She is swept away any suggestion that the European Court of Justice
0:26:17 > 0:26:20would have anything to do with any rules. She seems to be busily
0:26:20 > 0:26:24putting them back on the table again. That's probably a good thing.
0:26:24 > 0:26:28What a waste of time. Because wouldn't it have been good to have
0:26:28 > 0:26:31began on a pragmatic, realistic basis and we might have got further
0:26:31 > 0:26:37than we have now. We are running out of time.What is Labour's answer to
0:26:37 > 0:26:43the question of the border between the northern Ireland and the
0:26:43 > 0:26:46Republic of Ireland, how do you avoid hardboard?The further we go
0:26:46 > 0:26:49from the EU, the harder it is to have a soft border. What we have
0:26:49 > 0:26:53said without that a form of customs union is a viable option. Melbourne
0:26:53 > 0:26:57has come up with any other suggestion.This idea, it says in
0:26:57 > 0:27:01the agreement that was struck with EU in the absence of any other
0:27:01 > 0:27:05agreement, this idea that we would maintain the full alignment with the
0:27:05 > 0:27:08rules and regulations come you are satisfied that it works well for the
0:27:08 > 0:27:13UK and EU and solves the border question?Of course there has to be
0:27:13 > 0:27:17a form of alignment, of course the European Court of Justice need staff
0:27:17 > 0:27:20an ongoing relationship with British justice in the way we put forward
0:27:20 > 0:27:26rules when we are working with the rest of the EU. Why have we denied
0:27:26 > 0:27:32at all this time, it is self-evident and continues to be so.It is
0:27:32 > 0:27:36proposed that an amendment be put forward that would give MPs a
0:27:36 > 0:27:40meaningful vote on this while there is still time for more negotiation
0:27:40 > 0:27:43rather than at the end of negotiations, will Labour support
0:27:43 > 0:27:48that?We have always said this. From the outset we have said, why should
0:27:48 > 0:27:52parliaments across the rest of Europe have a vote on this, and the
0:27:52 > 0:27:56European Parliament have a vote, the people of Walloons will have a lot
0:27:56 > 0:28:02in it, why not the British people? That has to be a meaningful vote. --
0:28:02 > 0:28:05one at the British Parliament. They will have to factor in what the
0:28:05 > 0:28:08British Parliament thinks. And many people in the British Parliament
0:28:08 > 0:28:11will not accept no deal, for example. If they think they are
0:28:11 > 0:28:14going to come to the British Parliament with no deal is an option
0:28:14 > 0:28:17they have another think coming. There's another amendment to the Lib
0:28:17 > 0:28:22Dems want, to put forward the option of remaining in the single market.
0:28:22 > 0:28:26Vince Cable has said it is specifically designed to flush out
0:28:26 > 0:28:29the Labour Party by asking straight out will you support this amendment
0:28:29 > 0:28:34or not with the option of staying in the single market. How would Labour
0:28:34 > 0:28:40vote on that?We are leaving the EU, we need a custom made deal with the
0:28:40 > 0:28:44EU. We need to be able to respect the views of the British people as
0:28:44 > 0:28:47expressed in the referendum and one debate was about ensuring that we
0:28:47 > 0:28:51have more control of migration. We've been told that the four
0:28:51 > 0:28:55freedoms mean we can't stay in the single market as it currently is so
0:28:55 > 0:28:59we need a different deal. Those other things we should have focused
0:28:59 > 0:29:03on rack from the outset.Emily Thornberry, thank you very much for
0:29:03 > 0:29:05coming in this morning.
0:29:05 > 0:29:08There have been a number of reports in the press recently accusing
0:29:08 > 0:29:10the Labour pressure group Momentum of forcing serving Labour
0:29:10 > 0:29:12councillors off the ballot paper for re-election in favour
0:29:12 > 0:29:13of their own candidates.
0:29:13 > 0:29:16Sources close to Momentum argue they are simply helping to reflect
0:29:16 > 0:29:18the new make-up of the Labour Party.
0:29:18 > 0:29:20So is there any truth in the allegations?
0:29:20 > 0:29:30Elizabeth Glinka has been to Brighton to find out.
0:29:30 > 0:29:32They say to keep your friends close and your
0:29:32 > 0:29:36enemies closer, and in the
0:29:36 > 0:29:37Labour Party in Brighton they are
0:29:37 > 0:29:45very close indeed. Here, as in many other parts of the country,
0:29:45 > 0:29:50there are suggestions that Momentum is attempting to seize control and
0:29:50 > 0:29:52ultimately replace sitting councillors with candidates of their
0:29:52 > 0:29:57own choosing.
0:29:57 > 0:29:59Two weeks ago Momentum won all nine positions on the
0:29:59 > 0:30:01committee which will organise the selection of candidates
0:30:01 > 0:30:03for the next City Council elections in 2019.
0:30:03 > 0:30:05Local activists have spoken about installing the first Socialist
0:30:05 > 0:30:08council in the city, the implication being that the current Labour
0:30:08 > 0:30:09council is not quite socialist enough.
0:30:09 > 0:30:17If you talk to people from Momentum, they will say to you, we
0:30:17 > 0:30:19have brought in all these new members, they're
0:30:19 > 0:30:20full of enthusiasm,
0:30:20 > 0:30:30why shouldn't we have our people moving in to take over the party,
0:30:31 > 0:30:45we are the future of the party.
0:30:45 > 0:30:47Is there bullying going on in Brighton?
0:30:47 > 0:30:48I think there has been.
0:30:48 > 0:30:50And I think that has predominantly been from people
0:30:50 > 0:30:52outside the Labour Party and it is not acceptable.
0:30:52 > 0:30:54Wouldn't be accurate to say that Momentum members and
0:30:54 > 0:30:57some of the new Labour Party members are mobilising against the existing
0:30:57 > 0:30:58councillors?
0:30:58 > 0:31:01I think there has been some chatter about that and a lot of
0:31:01 > 0:31:05that has been from those who are not in the party at the present time.
0:31:05 > 0:31:07Once people are not members of the Labour Party,
0:31:07 > 0:31:10they can't share our values and therefore they should be
0:31:10 > 0:31:11excluded from Momentum.
0:31:11 > 0:31:21And that would be a way to unify the party in
0:31:21 > 0:31:23Brighton and Hove and around the country.
0:31:23 > 0:31:32As a former minister in the Blair government you might expect of
0:31:32 > 0:31:35a captain to take that view.
0:31:35 > 0:31:37I spoke to a number of Labour Party
0:31:37 > 0:31:39members who said they had experienced intimidation and that
0:31:39 > 0:31:41Momentum was authoritarian and brutal to existing councillors.
0:31:41 > 0:31:43None would agree to appear on camera.
0:31:43 > 0:31:46While I was in Brighton a Momentum activist posted this video and
0:31:46 > 0:31:47social media.
0:31:47 > 0:31:49The faces of three Labour councillors including the
0:31:49 > 0:31:50council leader had been superimposed.
0:31:50 > 0:31:52Something I put to a local Momentum organiser Greg
0:31:52 > 0:31:55Hadfield, who is currently suspended from the Labour Party.
0:31:55 > 0:31:57I haven't seen it so I'm not going to comment on it.
0:31:57 > 0:31:59And you think that is?
0:31:59 > 0:32:01I'm happy to get back to you and have
0:32:01 > 0:32:02considered view but I haven't seen it.
0:32:02 > 0:32:06I have spoken to a number of people across the party in Brighton
0:32:06 > 0:32:09and Hove, some of them tell me that Momentum are using bullying tactics,
0:32:09 > 0:32:13that the party is very divided and they feel not able to speak up
0:32:13 > 0:32:15and air their views.
0:32:15 > 0:32:18They are saying that on the record?
0:32:18 > 0:32:21Because I think that's shocking smears.
0:32:21 > 0:32:24What we have seen in Brighton and Hove in the
0:32:24 > 0:32:26last 18 months is a massive upsurge in democratic, decent democratic
0:32:26 > 0:32:31engagement with party members.
0:32:31 > 0:32:36Anyone who says that, first of all they are lying,
0:32:36 > 0:32:39but also they don't have the best interests of the party.
0:32:39 > 0:32:42Would you like to get rid of the current
0:32:42 > 0:32:43cohort of councillors in Brighton and Hove,
0:32:43 > 0:32:45the Labour councillors.
0:32:45 > 0:32:48I would love it for members to elect the best
0:32:48 > 0:32:51representatives of this Labour Party that they can.
0:32:51 > 0:32:57If that is bullying, if that is not democratic, if that
0:32:57 > 0:32:59is deselecting, then people saying that have a very
0:32:59 > 0:33:02strange view of democracy.
0:33:02 > 0:33:04Overnight Labour suspended the member who posted the video.
0:33:04 > 0:33:08He denied was anti-Semitic and issued an apology.
0:33:08 > 0:33:12Away from Brighton the deselection of Labour
0:33:12 > 0:33:14councillors in Haringey and in other London boroughs has
0:33:14 > 0:33:17made the national press.
0:33:17 > 0:33:19There have been deselection is in other places as
0:33:19 > 0:33:22well including Hastings and by just aware the
0:33:22 > 0:33:25former mayor is among the casualties.
0:33:25 > 0:33:27I think we need a cultural message from the top.
0:33:27 > 0:33:29Momentum clearly have a place in the Labour movement now
0:33:29 > 0:33:32although they are not affiliated with the party
0:33:32 > 0:33:34formally they have brought energy and ideas to the party.
0:33:34 > 0:33:35That is no bad thing.
0:33:35 > 0:33:38But Jeremy Corbyn is not just the party leader but the
0:33:38 > 0:33:41figurehead of momentum, he has to send a message
0:33:41 > 0:33:43to all his troops, if you like around the country,
0:33:43 > 0:33:45saying perhaps, not in my name.
0:33:45 > 0:33:47Having spoken to people from across the
0:33:47 > 0:33:53Labour Party in Brighton, there are those that
0:33:53 > 0:33:56will tell you that the party is more united than ever before
0:33:56 > 0:33:58and they are incredibly positive about the future.
0:33:58 > 0:34:00But on the other side even people who
0:34:00 > 0:34:02describe themselves as being on the left say they feel despondent
0:34:02 > 0:34:09and that the atmosphere can only be described as toxic.
0:34:09 > 0:34:12Well we asked Momentum if someone could come on to discuss the issues
0:34:12 > 0:34:19raised in that film but no one was available.
0:34:19 > 0:34:25Never mind, we have our panel of experts. Helen, is it perfectly
0:34:25 > 0:34:30legitimate for momentum to get their own candidate selected. They are in
0:34:30 > 0:34:36the ascendancy now, so why shouldn't they have more candidates?They have
0:34:36 > 0:34:43a legitimate position and they are entitled to push it forward. But it
0:34:43 > 0:34:46is controlled by two Private limited companies and the data is in the
0:34:46 > 0:34:54hands of one man. They talk about progress and the Fabians, it is
0:34:54 > 0:34:59around Jeremy Corbyn as a person. The third thing, they are very
0:34:59 > 0:35:03successful in terms of making viral videos and they are an effective,
0:35:03 > 0:35:08organising force and that is why people are so worried.Momentum do
0:35:08 > 0:35:12show the way politics is going, they are fantastic at mobilising people,
0:35:12 > 0:35:17reaching their supporters and doing it in different ways, are centrists
0:35:17 > 0:35:21in the Labour Party frightened by their success?Definitely and that
0:35:21 > 0:35:25is why they haven't been able to put up a better fight. To claim this is
0:35:25 > 0:35:32an undemocratic, because votes have been taken before Momentum takes
0:35:32 > 0:35:36control like the Brighton & Hove Albion are to, is absurd. It isn't
0:35:36 > 0:35:43democratic because a small neo-Nazis calls will be holding the Labour
0:35:43 > 0:35:49Party to ransom. It doesn't matter whether they can sit out at these
0:35:49 > 0:35:56meetings until 2am until moderates have to go home. It doesn't make it
0:35:56 > 0:36:05a takeover, it is definitely not democratic as it would be if Britain
0:36:05 > 0:36:12First took over the Labour Party.Is that fair?The problem is calling it
0:36:12 > 0:36:19tiny. It isn't tiny any more. The last lot of people campaigning on
0:36:19 > 0:36:22the streets for Labour were involved in Momentum. If you look at their
0:36:22 > 0:36:29social media, 60% of voters saw a Momentum video on their Facebook
0:36:29 > 0:36:35feeds during the general election and Momentum spent £2000 on it.
0:36:35 > 0:36:40Everything else spread virally. There is a popularity and yes they
0:36:40 > 0:36:44are a bunch of old leftie Marxists, but on the other side there is
0:36:44 > 0:36:51people cheering the Jeremy Corbyn, they have come together and it is a
0:36:51 > 0:36:58powerful force and no wonder the Blairites and motorists are worried.
0:36:58 > 0:37:04It is a form of bullying?You have these optimistic people who want to
0:37:04 > 0:37:09change the world, tied up with a group of people who are effective
0:37:09 > 0:37:16organisers and behave in a substandard way a lot of the time.
0:37:16 > 0:37:21To compare them with Britain First is over the top. To compare it with
0:37:21 > 0:37:25an organisation whose explicit purpose is to
0:37:34 > 0:37:37Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics.
0:37:37 > 0:37:40So as the debate goes on over who's come out on top
0:37:40 > 0:37:42after the government's last-minute deal with the EU,
0:37:42 > 0:37:43we'll hear from the DUP
0:37:43 > 0:37:45and Sinn Fein on what it means for Northern Ireland,
0:37:45 > 0:37:47and its place in the UK and Europe.
0:37:47 > 0:37:51We'll also hear from the UUP, SDLP and Alliance and throughout
0:37:51 > 0:37:54this extended programme, we'll have analysis from Professors
0:37:54 > 0:37:57Pete Shirlow and Cathal McCall.
0:38:02 > 0:38:05So, work is now under way to establish what precisely our
0:38:05 > 0:38:08trading and political relationships will look like - both
0:38:08 > 0:38:11north-south and east-west - in future, and where Stormont should
0:38:11 > 0:38:13fit in to it all.
0:38:13 > 0:38:15And no-one expects it to be plan sailing from here on,
0:38:15 > 0:38:17despite Friday's dramatic deal.
0:38:17 > 0:38:21Joining me now are the DUP's Sammy Wilson and Sinn Fein's John O'Dowd.
0:38:21 > 0:38:26SAMMY -In the run-up to Friday's deal a DUP source was quoted
0:38:34 > 0:38:40In the run-up to the deal, a DUP source was quoted as saying, this is
0:38:40 > 0:38:45about who brings first and we have cut at out our eyelids. A
0:38:45 > 0:38:53climb-down? Not a climb-down, we set out at the beginning of the week to
0:38:53 > 0:38:56say our objectives. We'll face with a green document which the prime
0:38:56 > 0:39:01ministers shared with us. We told her forcefully that we could not
0:39:01 > 0:39:06support if she moved forward with that document. Over the week,
0:39:06 > 0:39:10through protracted negotiations with the government, we succeeded in
0:39:10 > 0:39:16getting a document which now first makes it clear that the United
0:39:16 > 0:39:20Kingdom is leaving the single market and the customs union and Northern
0:39:20 > 0:39:24Ireland will be included in that. Secondly, that there will be no
0:39:24 > 0:39:33barriers put on trade between Northern Ireland and the rest of the
0:39:33 > 0:39:40UK now or in the future. Thirdly, the government will support the free
0:39:40 > 0:39:44and unfettered access for Northern Ireland businesses to the GB market,
0:39:44 > 0:39:52which is the appalled market for us. And in future negotiations where
0:39:52 > 0:39:55there are specific interests will Northern Ireland, there will be deep
0:39:55 > 0:39:59involvement by Northern Ireland and the DUP and Northern Ireland
0:39:59 > 0:40:11politicians.But the reality was there were no -- two special
0:40:11 > 0:40:20demands, that there should be no special status and to achieve demand
0:40:20 > 0:40:25two, number one has been sacrificed. No, for Northern Ireland, there will
0:40:25 > 0:40:29be no regulations put in place that will treat Northern Ireland
0:40:29 > 0:40:33differently from the rest of the UK. If there is to be any regulatory
0:40:33 > 0:40:40alignment because a free-trade deal is not struck, the regulations will
0:40:40 > 0:40:44affect the whole of the United Kingdom, not just Northern Ireland.
0:40:44 > 0:40:51So the UK
0:40:51 > 0:40:53stay in the single market customs union, it has just been forced to
0:40:53 > 0:41:01act as if it has. How better as Mac but even that term regulatory
0:41:01 > 0:41:04alignment is elastic.As the secretary of state said in the House
0:41:04 > 0:41:10of Commons this week, regulatory alignment, if it is required, and it
0:41:10 > 0:41:16is only in that narrow area of North-South cooperation...Six major
0:41:16 > 0:41:23areas, 142 subsections.If you look at the analysis done, over half of
0:41:23 > 0:41:27those areas do not require regulations which mirror the
0:41:27 > 0:41:35regulations in the rest of the EU. So that bit was over eggs.You're
0:41:35 > 0:41:43not talking about some Northern Ireland economy...We are not.You
0:41:43 > 0:41:48pull the plug on Monday, why not on Thursday night?Because the
0:41:48 > 0:41:53negotiations you have a main goal. Our main goal was that a document
0:41:53 > 0:41:57which gave little or no recognition to Northern Ireland's position in
0:41:57 > 0:42:03the UK and staying in line with the rest of the UK when we left the EU,
0:42:03 > 0:42:08that was changed. We succeeded in getting that.You avoided a hard
0:42:08 > 0:42:15border so the whole of the UK to -- have to align to allow Northern
0:42:15 > 0:42:18Ireland its special status. The holiday UK is now affected, so how
0:42:18 > 0:42:24is that a better deal?Let's look at that particular paragraph. The first
0:42:24 > 0:42:30option is that we get a free-trade arrangement with the rest of the EU.
0:42:30 > 0:42:33That is what the government will be aiming for and what we will be
0:42:33 > 0:42:39aiming for. And if it get a proper free-trade arrangement, there is no
0:42:39 > 0:42:42need to worry about regulations being aligned. The second one is
0:42:42 > 0:42:47that if that is not possible, there will be special arrangements put in
0:42:47 > 0:42:53place as the government put in its August paper to the EU, to ensure
0:42:53 > 0:43:01that there is the trade -- free trade across but the bottom line is,
0:43:01 > 0:43:11if you can't improve on this... And the last backstop is that if a
0:43:11 > 0:43:14free-trade arrangement is not agreed or is the special arrangements
0:43:14 > 0:43:21cannot be put in place, then we will look at what alignment on a UK wide
0:43:21 > 0:43:25basis is required. And that's alignment, the Secretary of State
0:43:25 > 0:43:29made it clear in the House of Commons, could be recognition of
0:43:29 > 0:43:35standards, could be equivalence... It is not special status for
0:43:35 > 0:43:46Northern Ireland.Is it special status?Will already have special
0:43:46 > 0:43:50status because we are treated differently. So it is what happens
0:43:50 > 0:43:56next. The DUP have found out that they are a big fish in the small
0:43:56 > 0:44:02pond. They don't want to be small fish in a large pond with sharks.
0:44:02 > 0:44:08Because this is moving into trade talks. The trade talks will
0:44:08 > 0:44:11concentrate, unfortunately, because this is a difficulty of the EU, the
0:44:11 > 0:44:15trade talks will concentrate on the needs of big business rather than
0:44:15 > 0:44:20people. That is why the DUP will find out that the interest of the
0:44:20 > 0:44:24banks in England, of multinationals in England, will overwrite any
0:44:24 > 0:44:28interest or influence they think they have with Theresa May. One of
0:44:28 > 0:44:32the reasons why Theresa May stepped on the plane in the early hours of
0:44:32 > 0:44:36Friday morning and started negotiating with the DUP at that
0:44:36 > 0:44:40stage is that she has now realised that this has moved on to a bigger
0:44:40 > 0:44:48agenda.At least we are in the pond, you are not in the pond! And it is
0:44:48 > 0:44:55significant that on Monday, the prime ministers shared with us the
0:44:55 > 0:45:04document, certainly, when we showed we were interested, she stopped the
0:45:04 > 0:45:07meetings in Brussels. Leo Varadkar did not do this with you. You are
0:45:07 > 0:45:14not in the pond!Leo Varadkar and Simon Coveney have been very busy
0:45:14 > 0:45:20and some people say that they played their difficult and very well.We
0:45:20 > 0:45:28have given a cautious welcome to the document. The principles of
0:45:28 > 0:45:31protecting northern Ireland remain on the principle of no Brexit border
0:45:31 > 0:45:37and protecting people's rights remains. It will await the formal
0:45:37 > 0:45:39implementation of an agreement to assure that those principles become
0:45:39 > 0:45:45legally binding requirements. Everybody except that's what we have
0:45:45 > 0:45:52had from Friday is a communique from the UK Government to the EU. The
0:45:52 > 0:45:56principles are good.Do you regard this as special status for Northern
0:45:56 > 0:46:03Ireland? That is a yes or a no.It is a difficult question to answer
0:46:03 > 0:46:07because until we see the enforcement of the deal of the legislation and
0:46:07 > 0:46:13guidance and all those things which enforce a deal, it is difficult.It
0:46:13 > 0:46:20is difficult for you because you don't want to say that, because the
0:46:20 > 0:46:26SDLP said you didn't want special status and you opposed it and now
0:46:26 > 0:46:29that means you are taking an SDLP policy. You have outmanoeuvred
0:46:29 > 0:46:36yourself.No, this is where you need to know the background.You argued
0:46:36 > 0:46:42against it.Let me give you the background. At that time, the Irish
0:46:42 > 0:46:45government were lobbying Sinn Fein to back down on our position which
0:46:45 > 0:46:53was much beyond and in advance of the SDLP.So what you want? I have a
0:46:53 > 0:47:10quote here and I can read it if you want to. In October 2016, you are
0:47:11 > 0:47:11saying,
0:47:11 > 0:47:15I suspect that, in there somewhere, the Irish Government and the SDLP
0:47:15 > 0:47:21are moving away from the position that "Remain" must mean "Remain".
0:47:21 > 0:47:26you're given this cautious welcome. We need to see how this is going to
0:47:26 > 0:47:32be implemented.You are trying to remedy Fox and hunt with the hound.
0:47:32 > 0:47:38There is no other way of achieving regulatory alignment with the
0:47:38 > 0:47:43customs union unless you are in the single market.But the document
0:47:43 > 0:47:47makes it clear that the UK will be leaving the customs union and the
0:47:47 > 0:47:51single market and that Northern Ireland will be going with the UK
0:47:51 > 0:47:57when that happens. So there is no question of the special status which
0:47:57 > 0:48:02are asking for. That is one of the things that we were very keen to get
0:48:02 > 0:48:11included in the document and have succeeded in.You base your policy
0:48:11 > 0:48:15on opposition to what Sinn Fein wanted.We base our policy on what
0:48:15 > 0:48:19we fought for in the referendum, namely that the United Kingdom
0:48:19 > 0:48:25should leave the EU and leaving the EU necessarily meant to...That is
0:48:25 > 0:48:30an interesting point. Let me ask you, in this deal that you did not
0:48:30 > 0:48:35oppose and did not pull the plug on, the protection afforded to Northern
0:48:35 > 0:48:43Ireland...Let's make it clear, we chose...You didn't choose anything.
0:48:43 > 0:48:46We chose not to pull the plug because we thought that the main
0:48:46 > 0:48:50objection off-macro so why did you pull the plug on Monday, but not
0:48:50 > 0:48:59Friday? Does anybody come out of negotiations getting everything that
0:48:59 > 0:49:06they want? The main thing we wanted to secure... And we would have liked
0:49:06 > 0:49:10to see more, but the main thing we aimed to secure was that Northern
0:49:10 > 0:49:13Ireland would not be treated differently than the rest of the
0:49:13 > 0:49:16United Kingdom. And that is peppered throughout this agreement so we
0:49:16 > 0:49:24achieved that.But the part of the deal with the Tories is that you
0:49:24 > 0:49:27would give support under your confidence and supplied motion on
0:49:27 > 0:49:35Brexit deals?And to date, we have honoured that.Today, but in future?
0:49:35 > 0:49:41The negotiations will go on...So it is under question now? You won't
0:49:41 > 0:49:50honour the deal?Any confidence and supply arrangement is under the
0:49:50 > 0:49:54assumption that people will...So you would walk away from 1 million
0:49:54 > 0:50:03-- £1 billion?Some of it has been delivered. A lot of that money is
0:50:03 > 0:50:09dependent on...Theresa May has said you had your day in the sun on
0:50:09 > 0:50:16Monday, but you're not going to get that again.Please give me the
0:50:16 > 0:50:21option to answer. The money is dependent on their being plans for
0:50:21 > 0:50:25broadband roll-out. There are no plans for that at present. It is
0:50:25 > 0:50:30dependent on the plans for reform of the health service. Those plans are
0:50:30 > 0:50:36not in place at present. It depends on infrastructure projects which are
0:50:36 > 0:50:41not -- which do not all have planning permission. You should at
0:50:41 > 0:50:44least listen to the answer. You should at least listen to the
0:50:44 > 0:50:51answer.A final question to you and then to John. The protection
0:50:51 > 0:50:54afforded to Northern Ireland to ensure it is not isolated from the
0:50:54 > 0:51:00UK means that the UK as a whole as to stay close to the EU integer. You
0:51:00 > 0:51:05wanted the former, not the latter. What kind of Brexit deal is that?
0:51:05 > 0:51:10That is not the case. The document makes it clear that regulatory
0:51:10 > 0:51:13alignment and whatever necessary regulatory alignment there is on
0:51:13 > 0:51:18those narrow areas of North-South co-operation will be done on a UK
0:51:18 > 0:51:22wide basis but in the context of the UK's leaving the single market and
0:51:22 > 0:51:31customs union.Is that how you see it, John?They told us they would
0:51:31 > 0:51:35not pay the divorce bill, they are paying it. They told us they would
0:51:35 > 0:51:40not ensure the rights of a European citizens, they have. They tell as
0:51:40 > 0:51:44they are leaving the customs union and single market, that is yet to be
0:51:44 > 0:51:50decided. In the trade talks, we will see what comes out of the alt of
0:51:50 > 0:51:53that. The best Euro involves being in the customs union and single
0:51:53 > 0:51:58market.Thank you for that.
0:51:58 > 0:51:59Thanks to both.
0:51:59 > 0:52:01Listening to that, Professor Pete Shirlow
0:52:01 > 0:52:03of the University of Liverpool and Professor Cathal McCall
0:52:03 > 0:52:06from Queen's University.
0:52:06 > 0:52:09What do you make of the deal and what we have heard from the main
0:52:09 > 0:52:16parties so far today? Certainly the deal would suggest that we are
0:52:16 > 0:52:24heading in the UK for a suspect it rather than a hard Brexit.Mrs Grove
0:52:24 > 0:52:27Johnson and Fox would prefer the latter. Although there seems to be
0:52:27 > 0:52:34some form of attack on this document from certainly gof and the Telegraph
0:52:34 > 0:52:39article.A bit fightback and certainly. Hardline rector tears
0:52:39 > 0:52:52don't see that that way. -- brigadiers. -- brexiteers.We happen
0:52:52 > 0:52:59to me about narrow regulatory alignment between north and south
0:52:59 > 0:53:04cooperation. It suggests to me that you would need border inspection to
0:53:04 > 0:53:07decipher what is not aligned and not aligned in terms of goods coming
0:53:07 > 0:53:14across the border. There is also the question of the whole island economy
0:53:14 > 0:53:20that has developed since 1998, the agricultural foods sector here is
0:53:20 > 0:53:24massively integrated by in large throughout the island. In terms of
0:53:24 > 0:53:30milk production for example. The fine detail of that will emerge as
0:53:30 > 0:53:35we go through these trade negotiations.Can I bring Pete in.
0:53:35 > 0:53:41What is your initial thoughts on where we might be, at this stage in
0:53:41 > 0:53:44the process?I think John has picked it up exactly. What has happened it
0:53:44 > 0:53:50was what was always going to happen all, a re-trade arrangement. A soft
0:53:50 > 0:53:56trade arrangement. Global capital of Europe, in London, you can't have
0:53:56 > 0:54:07that outside of the economy of Europe. The captains of industry and
0:54:07 > 0:54:13of the financial systems obviously want this as soft as possible and
0:54:13 > 0:54:19with the UK gone you don't have the same time of ferocious and is on
0:54:19 > 0:54:24this debate. -- with Ukip gone there was no process this. At the end of
0:54:24 > 0:54:28the day those who are in charge know that you need to have a soft landing
0:54:28 > 0:54:34but one thing important that Sammy said is that if you look at
0:54:34 > 0:54:41devolution, border for example isn't a devolved issue, this is a UK
0:54:41 > 0:54:45Ireland border. It happens to be Northern Ireland and the Republic
0:54:45 > 0:54:49but it is an international border. It's not a devolved matter, it is a
0:54:49 > 0:54:55matter that relates to two Southern countries and I think it's not a
0:54:55 > 0:55:00special status argument it is that that border can be accommodated as
0:55:00 > 0:55:05is currently will be done differently.Do you except we are
0:55:05 > 0:55:11now heading to a soft Brexit, and are relaxed about these such?I hate
0:55:11 > 0:55:17these terms soft and hard Brexit. You either leave or you don't. I am
0:55:17 > 0:55:21still convinced the government because of the commitments it has
0:55:21 > 0:55:25made and indeed because of the commitments to other parties made to
0:55:25 > 0:55:28their supporters, that we will not be in the custody union and the
0:55:28 > 0:55:35single market, you can call out whatever you want...You still have
0:55:35 > 0:55:39to act in the way that you are.When you are trading with any country you
0:55:39 > 0:55:42have you give acknowledgements to some of the regulations which exist
0:55:42 > 0:55:49in those countries. When we sell aircraft parts to the United States
0:55:49 > 0:55:53we have 2p cognisant of the regulations in the States and
0:55:53 > 0:55:58ignoring those we couldn't sell. There is was going to be an element
0:55:58 > 0:56:04of that in any trade.Sammy says he is relaxed about the concept of this
0:56:04 > 0:56:08soft and hard Brexit. You see this is different and except more of a
0:56:08 > 0:56:13soft Brexit.We are going towards what is known as a soft Brexit but
0:56:13 > 0:56:16there was lots of negotiation to be done over the next number of months
0:56:16 > 0:56:21and perhaps years. This is not a done deal and tell as at the end of
0:56:21 > 0:56:28this like the end of this what's the legal binding document says with a
0:56:28 > 0:56:33direction of tribal moving forward. -- travel.
0:56:33 > 0:56:34Thanks for now.
0:56:34 > 0:56:35We'll be hearing from the SDLP,
0:56:35 > 0:56:38Alliance and Ulster Unionists in just a moment -
0:56:38 > 0:56:40but first, a look back at the week gone past in slightly
0:56:40 > 0:56:50more than 60 seconds.
0:56:56 > 0:57:03We have been very clear, Northern Ireland must leave the European
0:57:03 > 0:57:10Union on the same terms as the rest of the United Kingdom. This is a
0:57:10 > 0:57:15start of the very last stage.We will reconvene before the end of the
0:57:15 > 0:57:19week and I am also confident that we will conclude this positively.We
0:57:19 > 0:57:22are surprised and disappointed they haven't been able to follow through
0:57:22 > 0:57:26today and on that agreement but there is still time.We have said
0:57:26 > 0:57:29from the beginning that the pact between the DUP and the Tories in
0:57:29 > 0:57:35landing would end in tears and so it has.When we looked at the wording
0:57:35 > 0:57:40and have seen the import of all that we knew we couldn't sign up to
0:57:40 > 0:57:43anything that was in that text that would allow a border to develop in
0:57:43 > 0:57:50the Irish Sea.Can you guarantee the government won't accept any deal
0:57:50 > 0:57:54ensuring the north doesn't remain in the customs union and the single
0:57:54 > 0:58:00market?Someone forgot to share the details with the DUP. Surely there
0:58:00 > 0:58:06are 1.5 billion reasons why the run is there really shouldn't have
0:58:06 > 0:58:12forgotten to share with the DUP?We will ensure there is no hard border
0:58:12 > 0:58:17between the north and the south of Ireland. We will do that while we
0:58:17 > 0:58:21respect the constitutional integrity of the United Kingdom.Do you feel
0:58:21 > 0:58:24you are making any progress whatsoever?I'm not making any
0:58:24 > 0:58:27comment at this stage. Thank you very much.
0:58:33 > 0:58:38There will be no hard border and we will uphold the Belfast agreement.I
0:58:38 > 0:58:41am satisfied that sufficient progress has now been made on the
0:58:41 > 0:58:48Irish issues. The parameters have been set and they are good.We have
0:58:48 > 0:58:52the very clear confirmation that the entirety of the United Kingdom is
0:58:52 > 0:58:54leaving the European Union leaving the single market and the customs
0:58:54 > 0:58:58union.
0:58:58 > 0:59:01Joining me now are Claire Hanna of the SDLP, the Ulster Unionist
0:59:01 > 0:59:02MEP Jim Nicholson, and the Alliance Party's deputy
0:59:02 > 0:59:10leader, Stephen Farry.
0:59:10 > 0:59:17Claire, first of all, a good deal so far or... Not so much? I think we
0:59:17 > 0:59:21are very glad of a breakthrough for a start because tensions were high
0:59:21 > 0:59:25and that is never a good thing for anybody and I think in terms of what
0:59:25 > 0:59:30has been agreed we think it is yes broadly positive. You concerned it
0:59:30 > 0:59:35could slip away? Of course it occurred. Hardline Brexit is --
0:59:35 > 0:59:40brexiteers are already making their pitch. In terms of the future deal
0:59:40 > 0:59:45we should be watched, if the prime ministers says the deal is not
0:59:45 > 0:59:49binding... I think it is positive that in the bottom line if the
0:59:49 > 0:59:57magical solution that the brexiteers don't actually materialise,
0:59:57 > 0:59:59essentially single market actors seem to be back on the table and I
0:59:59 > 1:00:02believe that over time there are many people who will grab that with
1:00:02 > 1:00:08open arms. We are glad that there is a move on through this particular
1:00:08 > 1:00:13gate that the potential for a catastrophic no deal is essentially
1:00:13 > 1:00:17off the table but there is a long way to run and it is important to
1:00:17 > 1:00:20say that Northern Ireland should not sit here like babies as it goes on
1:00:20 > 1:00:23over our head and we have agency and this and we should do whatever we
1:00:23 > 1:00:31can.Jim Nicholson you have a voice in Brussels and can influence the
1:00:31 > 1:00:36discussions. Bats in a way that others can't because you are an MEP.
1:00:36 > 1:00:42Is it so far so good, eight good start, something to be built on?
1:00:42 > 1:00:47There is something to be built on. I have always maintained that you
1:00:47 > 1:00:50couldn't have solved the problem of the border which becomes a border
1:00:50 > 1:00:55when the UK leaves Europe, a border between the European Union and the
1:00:55 > 1:00:59United Kingdom, that is what for me a lots of people didn't understand
1:00:59 > 1:01:05and I think for me now this could have been better but there is no
1:01:05 > 1:01:11point dwelling upon that because we want to go to the next phase and you
1:01:11 > 1:01:13bet your bottom dollar as we sit here today in Brussels they are
1:01:13 > 1:01:18drawing up who is going to be in charge of the next agenda, next ago
1:01:18 > 1:01:24sitting position and Hugh will be looking at the last one while Mr
1:01:24 > 1:01:31Davies said on every occasion he lost the argument to Michel Barnier,
1:01:31 > 1:01:34and the last negotiations were conducted on a total EU agenda. If
1:01:34 > 1:01:41the UK doesn't get some reality back into the situation on the next
1:01:41 > 1:01:45negotiations if they continue to allow looking at the situation Boris
1:01:45 > 1:01:50Johnson saying as far as Europe was concerned they could go whistle for
1:01:50 > 1:01:53their money, it is 40 billion, that's a big whistle.An expensive
1:01:53 > 1:02:00one. Briefly on this, some people are now making the case that there
1:02:00 > 1:02:03is a need perhaps in future for Northern Ireland MEPs do continue to
1:02:03 > 1:02:06have a voice in Brussels because if we are looking at alignment and
1:02:06 > 1:02:11there are changes in future who would speak up for Northern Ireland
1:02:11 > 1:02:15in that situation? The only person could do it with out the UK being
1:02:15 > 1:02:18there would be Leo Varadkar or the Taoiseach, would you still like to
1:02:18 > 1:02:26be in Brussels making that case? That's an interesting point. It
1:02:26 > 1:02:29relates to some of these things indeed because for me as we go
1:02:29 > 1:02:34forward we had to see what full alignment means, how it will be
1:02:34 > 1:02:37implemented, how it would be implemented and I understand this
1:02:37 > 1:02:42morning there have been calls of that into question and yes you are
1:02:42 > 1:02:46right, that once the UK leaves as far as we would be concerned there
1:02:46 > 1:02:51would be nobody at the Council for us.That is a yes? Go on, spit it
1:02:51 > 1:03:00out, Jim.I am not going to accept that Dublin will be sitting at the
1:03:00 > 1:03:07table representing on this issue.Is there a case for the keeping of the
1:03:07 > 1:03:10MEPs of Northern Ireland?There was a case for a lot of things an the
1:03:10 > 1:03:16road. We are only at the starting line as far as these negotiations
1:03:16 > 1:03:19are concerned. This has taken 18 months and if we don't go along the
1:03:19 > 1:03:23next one the next one will take a long time, I don't think it is a
1:03:23 > 1:03:26given us for as Europe is concerned talking to Europeans, not my own
1:03:26 > 1:03:29personal view but as far as Europeans concerned they won't let
1:03:29 > 1:03:36us have our cake and eat it.Stephen Farry I think the deal on Friday has
1:03:36 > 1:03:40been given a welcome by your party. How consonant are you that the way
1:03:40 > 1:03:44things turn as they often do in high politics that the whole thing could
1:03:44 > 1:03:51be unfixable for it is dry?I think there is a lack of realism as Italy
1:03:51 > 1:03:54with the DUP and the UK Government as to what they are signed up in
1:03:54 > 1:03:59practice. Sammy Wilson was pretty relaxed this morning. But if they
1:03:59 > 1:04:04are relaxed I am prepared to be a lot more generous, and protecting
1:04:04 > 1:04:07the Northern Ireland economy that is a good thing. What has been agreed
1:04:07 > 1:04:10here it is first of all the protection of the Good Friday
1:04:10 > 1:04:14Agreement and secondly avoidance of a hard border, those are innocent of
1:04:14 > 1:04:17the two fixed points in this discussion.Is it possible to
1:04:17 > 1:04:20achieve both.It is possible but that is the point I'm trying to
1:04:20 > 1:04:25stress. It is useful to talk this in terms of the three red lines of the
1:04:25 > 1:04:29UK Government. The mini customs union and single market, ruling out
1:04:29 > 1:04:33special measures for Northern Ireland, and they want avoiding a
1:04:33 > 1:04:36hard border. Only two of those can be true at anyone time. They have
1:04:36 > 1:04:41now said firmly there will be no border sites unless they give on
1:04:41 > 1:04:44either one of those issues, the EU don't want regulatory alignment and
1:04:44 > 1:04:48they have to recognise this will be fairly broad. Unless you have
1:04:48 > 1:04:51something that is very comprehensive then you will see a border returning
1:04:51 > 1:04:57in some shape or form. And that means potentially in essence full
1:04:57 > 1:05:02participation in the single market which we are calling for. This is a
1:05:02 > 1:05:07not a case of voluntary alignment of the UK as a whole, trying to meet
1:05:07 > 1:05:11the single market and it is a two-way process so there has to be
1:05:11 > 1:05:14recognition. Investors coming into Northern Ireland in future need to
1:05:14 > 1:05:21know what type of legal governments then the regime will be invested in.
1:05:21 > 1:05:25Claire Hanna when you look at some of the things in the papers over the
1:05:25 > 1:05:29weekend lots of people have been saying, people involved in the
1:05:29 > 1:05:32negotiations and commenting upon them with a lot of experience of the
1:05:32 > 1:05:36process up to now have been saying this deal is a political deal as you
1:05:36 > 1:05:40have said yourself rather than a legal deal. But it tries to be all
1:05:40 > 1:05:45things to all men and women. And it is not actually possible at the end
1:05:45 > 1:05:50of the day. We aren't sure how it will be shaped and summary will be
1:05:50 > 1:05:52disappointed.Yes if you look at the history of the last few months I
1:05:52 > 1:05:55think it is clear who will end up disappointed because as was
1:05:55 > 1:05:59articulated before, the London government had a number of red
1:05:59 > 1:06:06lines, all of which they have had to accept circles can't be squared.
1:06:06 > 1:06:10Part of the problem for London is that they don't have an opening
1:06:10 > 1:06:15position, if the trade talks are ready to talk in the New Year, they
1:06:15 > 1:06:22have never worked out what will be want to add the other side of them,
1:06:22 > 1:06:29they have only gone so far as sound bites. This negotiation provides
1:06:29 > 1:06:32bottom lines, and some fundamentals that we don't think can be breached
1:06:32 > 1:06:37and yes you are right, the flesh has to be put on these bones that have
1:06:37 > 1:06:40come out this week but I still think they won't have been able to sell
1:06:40 > 1:06:45that anyway. I think single market would be best, we don't want any
1:06:45 > 1:06:48border north-south we don't want any border East-West either. Well it is
1:06:48 > 1:06:52a soft or hard Brexit lots of people will wonder why you pay the divorce
1:06:52 > 1:06:57bill and cohabit will stop why would you go to this process and end up
1:06:57 > 1:07:02with something that is Brexit light, all of the pain that will be
1:07:02 > 1:07:05involved with the coming years with the £40 billion that Claire has
1:07:05 > 1:07:09referred to, something where you are following the regulations in the
1:07:09 > 1:07:17single market and the customs union anyway?
1:07:17 > 1:07:21That's a question would have to go back... No point trying to refight
1:07:21 > 1:07:29the recommend am. With the benefit of hindsight, if we look at it now,
1:07:29 > 1:07:35both sides in the referendum did not do themselves an awful lot of
1:07:35 > 1:07:43justice with the money coming back from the health service etc. But we
1:07:43 > 1:07:48are where we are today. The people of the UK spoke and made it very
1:07:48 > 1:07:54clear. I made my position clear at the time and as Sammy Wilson said
1:07:54 > 1:08:00earlier on, in life you don't always get everything you want. We are in a
1:08:00 > 1:08:04situation where we are going to have to go forward and what will be the
1:08:04 > 1:08:09end result, remains to be seen.Is it worth going to refight that
1:08:09 > 1:08:16battle again and was the customs union -- was worth leaving in the
1:08:16 > 1:08:24first place?My hunch on this is that we will end up with a little
1:08:24 > 1:08:28Brexit to satisfy the first referendum and in that is important
1:08:28 > 1:08:34to separate the politics from the economic. Northern Ireland will be
1:08:34 > 1:08:39exiting in a political and constitutional way. But the key
1:08:39 > 1:08:43thing is to separate the economics in Northern Ireland. It has to
1:08:43 > 1:08:47recognise east-west and north-south access. We need to have both in
1:08:47 > 1:08:55unison to survive and to really succeed as a society. Alone -- a lot
1:08:55 > 1:09:00of the talk has been about defending things. We have to recognise that
1:09:00 > 1:09:07our economy is still underperforming with infrastructure we --
1:09:07 > 1:09:12weaknesses. We need spending to help us develop things. Turning our backs
1:09:12 > 1:09:16on the world will not help.I want to go back to the document which has
1:09:16 > 1:09:22been referred to, there are contradictions in it. Is it possible
1:09:22 > 1:09:30for everything contained in it to be delivered? Or will one phrase, one
1:09:30 > 1:09:36element of its knockout another? There is a lack of clarity in the
1:09:36 > 1:09:43document. It is purposely vague... Full of constructive ambiguity.We
1:09:43 > 1:09:46know all about this with the Good Friday Agreement and have the types
1:09:46 > 1:09:53of agreements work. Or at least survive opposition.Is that
1:09:53 > 1:09:59necessarily a bad thing?No, but as we have seen with the previous
1:09:59 > 1:10:02speakers, there is already a difference of opinion certainly on
1:10:02 > 1:10:08the EU and British side with regard to what this term, full alignment,
1:10:08 > 1:10:15means. Does it mean very limited areas of? Six areas, orders are
1:10:15 > 1:10:21applied to 146 areas of plus the all Ireland economy that has developed
1:10:21 > 1:10:26since the 1998 agreement? All that will be fleshed out. This document
1:10:26 > 1:10:36is almost aspirational. The Taoiseach use the Tama bullet-proof.
1:10:36 > 1:10:39I have heard future proof mentioned, and I don't agree because the
1:10:39 > 1:10:44opening caveat is that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
1:10:44 > 1:10:48And significantly and not surprisingly, we have heard
1:10:48 > 1:10:51Unionists saying that that is the key phrase. All of this is
1:10:51 > 1:10:54hypothetical but at the end of the day it has to be agreed for it to
1:10:54 > 1:11:01move forward.Of course it has too, for unionism because Unionism has to
1:11:01 > 1:11:06have the best representation for Northern Ireland in the UK. But
1:11:06 > 1:11:11Brexit is going to be largely apolitical process. That is the
1:11:11 > 1:11:19divorce. The trade issue will often be the soft side of things. The soft
1:11:19 > 1:11:23side of Brexit will be how we put together the trade arrangement. This
1:11:23 > 1:11:28has been a good week for Theresa May and for the DUP in the sense that
1:11:28 > 1:11:33they have had things that were already there but they have acted be
1:11:33 > 1:11:37able to say that to their supporters. And a good week for Leo
1:11:37 > 1:11:44Varadkar. Fine Gael have risen to 40% in the polls. Interesting that
1:11:44 > 1:11:48the politics around this is creating winners and losers and very clearly,
1:11:48 > 1:11:56when we heard Jim Allister on Friday night and the Nigel Farage, this
1:11:56 > 1:12:01Brexit is not what those who voted for it are naturally going to get.
1:12:01 > 1:12:10It will not be that. A quick word on the return to Stormont. Does it put
1:12:10 > 1:12:15pressure on the parties in Stormont to shape the debate?Most of us
1:12:15 > 1:12:18would say this is above our pay grade but it does put pressure on
1:12:18 > 1:12:24them. Brexit is not about trade alone, it is about interdependence,
1:12:24 > 1:12:27relationships, taking those questions as to whether you look
1:12:27 > 1:12:36East - West and North- South.Jim, on that, doesn't put pressure on
1:12:36 > 1:12:41Stormont coming back sooner rather than later?Beyond doubt. If you
1:12:41 > 1:12:47have to have full alignment, you need a parliament to enact it. No
1:12:47 > 1:12:54matter what it is.Whenever we publish our own paper -- when we
1:12:54 > 1:13:01published our own paper we said that this agreement was devolution max.
1:13:01 > 1:13:04Ensuring we work to find that we can do things differently when needed to
1:13:04 > 1:13:11get the best both worlds.That is a huge challenge. Then we get into the
1:13:11 > 1:13:15transition talks and then the trade talks. Thank you all very much
1:13:15 > 1:13:16indeed.
1:13:17 > 1:13:19That's it for now - we've got a special edition
1:13:19 > 1:13:21of The View coming up this Thursday.
1:13:21 > 1:13:24We'll be live from Brussels as EU leaders meet, we presume,
1:13:24 > 1:13:26to ratify the deal and move discussions on towards the all
1:13:26 > 1:13:27important trade talks.
1:13:27 > 1:13:30Do join me for that at 10:40 on BBC One.
1:13:30 > 1:13:33For now, though, goodbye.