11/02/2018

0:00:37 > 0:00:39Morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:39 > 0:00:40I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:40 > 0:00:42And this is the programme that will provide your essential briefing

0:00:42 > 0:00:44on everything that's moving and shaking in the

0:00:44 > 0:00:46world of politics.

0:00:46 > 0:00:48After all the waiting we're finally going to hear

0:00:48 > 0:00:51the Prime Minister's vision for Britain's future relationship

0:00:51 > 0:00:54with the European Union, but not for another couple of weeks.

0:00:54 > 0:00:58We'll look at what she might say.

0:00:58 > 0:01:00Key to any agreement will be whether we should bind our customs'

0:01:00 > 0:01:03arrangements closely to the EU, or strike out on our own.

0:01:03 > 0:01:06We'll speak to leading figures from both sides of the argument.

0:01:06 > 0:01:10And Labour argue public ownership of services

0:01:10 > 0:01:13like the railways are an "economic necessity".

0:01:13 > 0:01:15We'll look at how the policy could work

0:01:15 > 0:01:18And coming up here - amid speculation that a Stormont

0:01:18 > 0:01:20deal is getting ever closer, I'll be talking live

0:01:20 > 0:01:22to the newly elected president of Sinn Fein,

0:01:22 > 0:01:23Mary-Lou McDonald.

0:01:23 > 0:01:30Join me in half an hour.

0:01:33 > 0:01:35Who needs the Winter Olympics when there's plenty

0:01:35 > 0:01:37of thrills, spills and potential wipeouts in the world

0:01:37 > 0:01:41of Westminster.

0:01:41 > 0:01:45And with me today are three experts who may very well go off piste:

0:01:45 > 0:01:47Tom Newton Dunn from the Sun, the Guardian's Zoe Williams

0:01:47 > 0:01:49and Iain Martin from the Times.

0:01:49 > 0:01:51So we hear that Theresa May will finally be giving her

0:01:51 > 0:01:54vision of a Brexit deal in the next few weeks.

0:01:54 > 0:01:57The news follows Mrs May hosting two Brexit cabinet meetings this week

0:01:57 > 0:01:58in an attempt to thrash out the government's

0:01:58 > 0:02:00negotiating position.

0:02:00 > 0:02:02If reports are to be believed not much was decided,

0:02:02 > 0:02:05and so there will now have to be a team building session

0:02:05 > 0:02:06at the prime minister's country residence Chequers.

0:02:06 > 0:02:10Maybe a few trust exercises will be in order.

0:02:10 > 0:02:14At the moment however we're none the wiser and the EU's Chief

0:02:14 > 0:02:18Negotiator Michel Barnier seems less than impressed.

0:02:18 > 0:02:20To start the week the EU chief negotiator, Michel Barnier,

0:02:20 > 0:02:26made a trip to Downing Street with Brexit secretary David Davis.

0:02:26 > 0:02:29Pleasantries with the PM, but the warning was clear.

0:02:29 > 0:02:35Time has come to make choice.

0:02:35 > 0:02:37All week the question was, are the Cabinet running

0:02:37 > 0:02:43away from making tough decisions on Brexit?

0:02:43 > 0:02:46As America woke up, the President took a pop at the

0:02:46 > 0:02:48National Health Service on Twitter.

0:02:48 > 0:02:50But was it all fake news?

0:02:50 > 0:02:55The Health Secretary hit back.

0:02:55 > 0:02:58The Transport Secretary, Chris Grayling, told the Commons

0:02:58 > 0:03:00that yet again the East Coast mainline franchise had failed,

0:03:00 > 0:03:04with renationalisation an option.

0:03:04 > 0:03:06While tensions in the Conservative Party on Brexit

0:03:06 > 0:03:14were on full display.

0:03:16 > 0:03:18One leading Tory Remainer did not hold back.

0:03:18 > 0:03:2035 hard ideological Brexiteers who are not Tories.

0:03:20 > 0:03:24It's about time Theresa May stood up to them and slung them out.

0:03:24 > 0:03:27On Tuesday, deeds and words, MPs celebrated 100 years since

0:03:27 > 0:03:31some women were given the vote.

0:03:31 > 0:03:36Westminster awash with suffragette colours purple, green, and white.

0:03:36 > 0:03:38Wednesday and Thursday, the Brexit War Cabinet settled

0:03:38 > 0:03:41in for crunch talks.

0:03:41 > 0:03:44They were meant to decide what the end state should look like.

0:03:44 > 0:03:45Breakthrough?

0:03:45 > 0:03:46Not yet.

0:03:46 > 0:03:49Also on Thursday, a leaked EU paper warned that the UK's single market

0:03:49 > 0:03:52access in the Brexit transition period could be revoked

0:03:52 > 0:03:55in the event of a dispute.

0:03:55 > 0:03:57Discourteous?

0:03:57 > 0:03:58The Brexit secretary thought so.

0:03:58 > 0:04:00It's not in good faith.

0:04:00 > 0:04:03We think it's unwise to publish that.

0:04:03 > 0:04:05The week ended as it began, with more warnings

0:04:05 > 0:04:07from Michel Barnier on Ireland, the customs union,

0:04:07 > 0:04:11and continuing EU UK disputes.

0:04:11 > 0:04:18If this disagreement persists, the transition is not a given.

0:04:18 > 0:04:22So, at the end of a busy week why not let off steam with a glass

0:04:22 > 0:04:24or two of Brexit juice, that's English sparkling wine

0:04:24 > 0:04:27to you and me, at the annual Conservative fundraiser the black

0:04:27 > 0:04:29and white ball.

0:04:29 > 0:04:31The highest bid of the night?

0:04:31 > 0:04:39£55,000 to spend a day with the PM.

0:04:42 > 0:04:46We could not afford to get her on to this programme but we will talk to

0:04:46 > 0:04:50our panel of experts to find out what is going on behind the

0:04:50 > 0:04:56headlines. Iain Martin, by now we thought we would know more about the

0:04:56 > 0:04:59government's final negotiating position. We had two Brexit

0:04:59 > 0:05:04subcommittee meetings this week. They were meant to come to a

0:05:04 > 0:05:10conclusion I thought. Are we any further forward?No. It is possible

0:05:10 > 0:05:15this is a cunning baldric style plan to make Britain look as confused as

0:05:15 > 0:05:22possible.A very, very cunning plan. Very cunning. But the chances of

0:05:22 > 0:05:26that are highly unlikely. It seems the meeting has happened, there was

0:05:26 > 0:05:29discussion, the Prime Minister did not express an opinion. The Prime

0:05:29 > 0:05:35Minister was more interested in secrecy and in fear of a leak, but

0:05:35 > 0:05:40it seems there was not much to leak anyway, because there was not a

0:05:40 > 0:05:47decision. Actually, the UK's closer to a position than people commonly

0:05:47 > 0:05:52understand, definitely out of the single market, but on this crucial

0:05:52 > 0:05:57question of the customs union, or a customs agreement after, there is

0:05:57 > 0:06:02still no decision taken. I think the feeling at Westminster, people on

0:06:02 > 0:06:07both sides of the argument seems to be will someone decide, make the

0:06:07 > 0:06:11case and then get stuck into the talks which lets remember our

0:06:11 > 0:06:17supposed to begin in six or seven weeks' time.This Brexit

0:06:17 > 0:06:21subcommittee is split between Brexiteers and Remainers. The Prime

0:06:21 > 0:06:24Minister sits in the middle we understand not really expressing a

0:06:24 > 0:06:29view, that is put together for careful political reasons but it

0:06:29 > 0:06:33cannot continue, can it?I think the presentation at the minute cannot

0:06:33 > 0:06:39come to a decision because they have not done their homework, student

0:06:39 > 0:06:43essay style crisis conclusion and in the case of David Davis you could

0:06:43 > 0:06:49believe that is true but the main reason they cannot come together is

0:06:49 > 0:06:53because of an implacable deadlock. There is no compromise between in

0:06:53 > 0:06:57the customs union or not in the customs union. One side has to

0:06:57 > 0:07:03vanquish the other. The Remainers really have to think it would be

0:07:03 > 0:07:06economic suicide to leave the customs union but they are also

0:07:06 > 0:07:13really aware that this deadlock is grinding government to halt. It is

0:07:13 > 0:07:16national duty pulling them in two directions. They will ultimately be

0:07:16 > 0:07:22the ones to say I do not want to cut the baby in half, you have the baby.

0:07:22 > 0:07:26At some point it will have to go to the country because it is a stupid

0:07:26 > 0:07:31idea to cut a baby in half expect what will happen for the Prime

0:07:31 > 0:07:35Minister who will have to make a decision for the kind Brexit she has

0:07:35 > 0:07:41advocated?She will do that and the danger is huge. She will have to get

0:07:41 > 0:07:45off the perch at some point. We have been sitting in these chairs for 20

0:07:45 > 0:07:49months saying the Prime Minister has to choose between prioritising

0:07:49 > 0:07:53market access and prioritise and sovereignty. That is the simple

0:07:53 > 0:07:56case. You may get a bit of both out of the EU but you will get more of

0:07:56 > 0:08:02one than the other. I think interestingly, there is a lot of

0:08:02 > 0:08:05movement going on under the surface which Number Ten are desperate not

0:08:05 > 0:08:10to show any of the machinations of it because they want to present a

0:08:10 > 0:08:14complete finished article. There is some sense of consensus growing in

0:08:14 > 0:08:22the Brexit community I am told, not to sign off on a customs union but

0:08:22 > 0:08:26to sign off on a semi-single market alignment, soap aligning with all

0:08:26 > 0:08:30the single market rules on manufactured goods is what I am told

0:08:30 > 0:08:35they are beginning to agree to do, which they feel they should do

0:08:35 > 0:08:38because British companies will go ahead and stand by all the EU

0:08:38 > 0:08:43regulations because that is what they want to continue to sell into

0:08:43 > 0:08:47the EU. There are some members of the committee who are opposed to

0:08:47 > 0:08:51this. Boris Johnson is the main one. If they do agree to allow heavily on

0:08:51 > 0:08:54manufactured goods but not on services, in other words they choose

0:08:54 > 0:09:02what to Jerry picked and can agree what to cherish pick -- cherry pick,

0:09:02 > 0:09:06but if they choose what to align on Ben Boris Johnson has do make a

0:09:06 > 0:09:12decision himself.

0:09:12 > 0:09:15decision himself. We could potentially see some Cabinet

0:09:15 > 0:09:18resignations and I put Boris Johnson at the head of it in two or three

0:09:18 > 0:09:27weeks' time. That is the root of the potential compromise.On services,

0:09:27 > 0:09:33on financial services, there is not a functioning single market. The

0:09:33 > 0:09:38question comes down to manufactured goods. A lot of the regulations have

0:09:38 > 0:09:42their origins in global standards, something like the car industry. Is

0:09:42 > 0:09:47Boris Johnson going to find himself in a position where he will die in a

0:09:47 > 0:09:52ditch over trying to make the UK diverged from globally set standards

0:09:52 > 0:09:58on carburettors? It would be an interesting position if he does.It

0:09:58 > 0:10:03sounds ridiculous but it also sounds like the sort of thing he will do.

0:10:03 > 0:10:07We will come back to this later in the programme.

0:10:07 > 0:10:10As it's still not clear what the government wants its final

0:10:10 > 0:10:13relationship with the EU will look like, we thought we'd

0:10:13 > 0:10:15try to help out by looking in detail at the key dilemma,

0:10:15 > 0:10:18when it comes to working out a customs arrangement,

0:10:18 > 0:10:20should we hug the EU close, or break out on our own?

0:10:20 > 0:10:23We've lined up two politicians from either side of the argument

0:10:23 > 0:10:25and, just for a change, they'll be asking

0:10:25 > 0:10:26the questions not me.

0:10:26 > 0:10:29So I'm joined by the soon to be former Conservative MEP and leading

0:10:29 > 0:10:32figure in the Leave campaign Daniel Hannan and by the former

0:10:32 > 0:10:34Labour frontbencher and supporter of Open Britain Seema Malhotra.

0:10:34 > 0:10:38Earlier this morning we tossed a coin to see who would go first.

0:10:38 > 0:10:41Daniel Hannan won and he agreed that he would go first.

0:10:41 > 0:10:43So here with thoughts on what our end

0:10:43 > 0:10:48relationship should be.

0:10:48 > 0:10:5290% of the world's economic growth over the next 15 years will come

0:10:52 > 0:10:57from outside the European Union. Britain is a maritime nation, linked

0:10:57 > 0:11:01to the world's fastest-growing economies by language, law, culture

0:11:01 > 0:11:06and kinship. But we cannot sign trade deals, not while we are in the

0:11:06 > 0:11:10EU's customs union. Staying in the customs union after we leave, would

0:11:10 > 0:11:15be the worst of all worlds. It would give Brussels 100% of our trade

0:11:15 > 0:11:22policy with 0% input from us. In order to take advantage of Brexit,

0:11:22 > 0:11:26we need to set our own regulations. Sometimes, for reasons of economies

0:11:26 > 0:11:30of scale, we might want to match what the EU is doing. If we do want

0:11:30 > 0:11:35to keep elements of the single market, it must be through agreement

0:11:35 > 0:11:40and on a case-by-case basis. In 1980, the states now in the European

0:11:40 > 0:11:46Union counted for 30% of the world's GDP. Today that figure is 15% and

0:11:46 > 0:11:53falling. Britain needs to raise its size. Our future bright, our future

0:11:53 > 0:11:55is global.

0:11:55 > 0:11:57Well, Seema and Dan are with me now.

0:11:57 > 0:12:03And just to explain the rules.

0:12:03 > 0:12:08Seema Malhotra has five minutes to interrogate down.This week a Tory

0:12:08 > 0:12:12MP said I think the real concern about the direction of travel when

0:12:12 > 0:12:17it comes to Brexit, we are to real crunch point and the government has

0:12:17 > 0:12:22not worked out 19 months on what the endgame is and we need to know. That

0:12:22 > 0:12:28is pretty clear, isn't it? You and others said Brexit will be easy so

0:12:28 > 0:12:35why is this the case?Nothing worthwhile is ever easy. I do not

0:12:35 > 0:12:41accept that the government has not made it position clear. It made it

0:12:41 > 0:12:45clear in Lancaster House beach and a series of white papers since. As

0:12:45 > 0:12:49Theresa May says we want to keep control of our laws, taxes and

0:12:49 > 0:12:53borders. But within that, we want to have the closest possible

0:12:53 > 0:12:56relationship with the rest of the EU, compatible with being a

0:12:56 > 0:13:04sovereign country. We want to be its best friend and ally. We will align

0:13:04 > 0:13:07with other countries but on our own terms.Things are not going

0:13:07 > 0:13:12according to plan. You and others said we will be keeping key

0:13:12 > 0:13:16agencies. David Davis said we would keep the agencies but now they are

0:13:16 > 0:13:21leaving. The European medicines agency is heading for Amsterdam, the

0:13:21 > 0:13:25European banking agency will go to Paris. That is 2000 highly skilled

0:13:25 > 0:13:31jobs being lost from the capital. Isn't this a high price we are

0:13:31 > 0:13:40paying for certainty?If you're that fixated on Eurocrats jobs then you

0:13:40 > 0:13:45there is something wrong with your priorities. All of the worries we

0:13:45 > 0:13:48had about job losses turned out to be nonsense. Instead of losing half

0:13:48 > 0:13:52a million, we have gained half a million. More people are working

0:13:52 > 0:13:57than ever before. I never claimed we would be keeping these Euro agencies

0:13:57 > 0:14:01in the UK. Of course if you leave the EU you leave these Euro agencies

0:14:01 > 0:14:09and you no longer have them on our soil. We will make our own

0:14:09 > 0:14:13regulations.You are calling these agencies Eurocrats, these are people

0:14:13 > 0:14:18helping with key sectors of our economy, scientists, those who are

0:14:18 > 0:14:21experts in finance and other sectors. I agree that Britain could

0:14:21 > 0:14:26trade more with the world and we need to, but evidence of leaks from

0:14:26 > 0:14:30the government this week shows that the impact of free trade deals

0:14:30 > 0:14:34around the world will no way compensate for the loss of trade

0:14:34 > 0:14:38with the EU which a hard Brexit would do for the UK. If you don't

0:14:38 > 0:14:42believe me, you can listen to the words of the Prime Minister who said

0:14:42 > 0:14:46during the referendum we export more to Ireland than we do to China,

0:14:46 > 0:14:52twice as much to Belgium as we do to India, it is not realistic to think

0:14:52 > 0:14:56we could replace European trade than these markets.We export more to

0:14:56 > 0:15:01Ireland than China, that is our problem! Which is the better

0:15:01 > 0:15:04long-term growth prospects?Don't you agree that there will be an

0:15:04 > 0:15:07impact on British businesses and families even in the short term and

0:15:07 > 0:15:12isn't it right that you raise that risk with the British people?

0:15:12 > 0:15:14Obviously we want free and frictionless trade with the EU and

0:15:14 > 0:15:22the freedom to my trade deals further of broad. EU does not have a

0:15:22 > 0:15:30trade deal with US, with India and old friends like Australia, the idea

0:15:30 > 0:15:35that we cannot do trade deals and bring benefits to this country I

0:15:35 > 0:15:39think is incredibly defeatist. Are we really saying it is a good idea

0:15:39 > 0:15:42to sell more to Ireland with five mil in people than to China with

0:15:42 > 0:15:49more than a billion. -- 5 million people.Their study after study

0:15:49 > 0:15:53which shows the proximity we have two nations goes a long way to

0:15:53 > 0:15:56determining our economic links, that is not just the case for us but for

0:15:56 > 0:16:04countries around the world. Of course we can do more. We have a

0:16:04 > 0:16:10trade surplus with the US already. I have spoken to investors from other

0:16:10 > 0:16:12countries who say they want to come and do more in the UK but the point

0:16:12 > 0:16:16is, part of the reason they do that is because we have access and they

0:16:16 > 0:16:20have access to the European markets of 500 million people to sell those

0:16:20 > 0:16:25goods as well. What do you say to the genuine concerns from Nissan and

0:16:25 > 0:16:29Honda, now even the Japanese ambassador talking about a challenge

0:16:29 > 0:16:32to the profitability of those companies in the UK, and the threat

0:16:32 > 0:16:37they may have to leave those operations and go elsewhere?They

0:16:37 > 0:16:41made those threats during the referendum and after the vote was in

0:16:41 > 0:16:45they confirmed that not only were they staying here but Nissan was

0:16:45 > 0:16:48increasing its productivity and activity in the UK. I think you

0:16:48 > 0:16:51should look at what they are doing rather than what they are saying.

0:16:51 > 0:16:55This idea that we are defined by our geography is an old-fashioned

0:16:55 > 0:16:5818th-century way of looking at trade. In the modern age where we

0:16:58 > 0:17:03have low freight costs, the Internet and cheap flights, geographical

0:17:03 > 0:17:09proximity has never mattered less. We are linked by language, law,

0:17:09 > 0:17:11cultural, legal systems and accountancy systems to the fastest

0:17:11 > 0:17:18growing con is the planet.

0:17:18 > 0:17:22I would like to ask you, you have set all your vision for how you

0:17:22 > 0:17:25would like to see our future relationship with the EU. How

0:17:25 > 0:17:29confident are you the Prime Minister will outline a clear vision soon and

0:17:29 > 0:17:33it will outline with Ewels?She's outlined the broad principles

0:17:33 > 0:17:38already. -- with yours. Fleshing out issues like how to make the Irish

0:17:38 > 0:17:42border were, how to make the facilitation of customs work. This

0:17:42 > 0:17:46thing nobody has explained what we can do in terms of customs is not

0:17:46 > 0:17:49true. The government produced a lengthy paper talking about how we

0:17:49 > 0:17:58can do things like expand the ... It's worth noting that both ahead of

0:17:58 > 0:18:01HMR see here and his equivalent in the Republic of Ireland have said

0:18:01 > 0:18:05there is no need for a Customs border, that companies can make

0:18:05 > 0:18:10their customs declarations in the way they make their tax

0:18:10 > 0:18:13declarations. They are now emphatically not choosing to listen

0:18:13 > 0:18:15to the experts when they say they don't need a hard order in Ireland.

0:18:15 > 0:18:20Thanks.

0:18:20 > 0:18:23Now it's the turn of Seema to be grilled but first,

0:18:23 > 0:18:25here's her thoughts on how our future relationship

0:18:25 > 0:18:26with the EU should look.

0:18:26 > 0:18:30I respect the result of the referendum. We need to move forward

0:18:30 > 0:18:36to find a deal that protects jobs in the economy. 43% of all of our trade

0:18:36 > 0:18:42is done with the EU. Staying inside the customs union gives us tariff

0:18:42 > 0:18:46free trade access to our many new partners. Issues surrounding

0:18:46 > 0:18:49immigration and sovereignty can be addressed while staying in the

0:18:49 > 0:18:53customs union and the single market. But on terms that we negotiate. We

0:18:53 > 0:18:59can also then trade freely with countries the EU has deals with.

0:18:59 > 0:19:04Deals that we have helped negotiate. And staying in the customs union is

0:19:04 > 0:19:08key to a solution on Ireland. Our select committee found that it is

0:19:08 > 0:19:14unclear how we can avoid a hardboard if we leave the customs union. I

0:19:14 > 0:19:17agree we need reform and greater controls on the freedom of movement,

0:19:17 > 0:19:21but people did not vote to become poorer. Let's leave the European

0:19:21 > 0:19:24Union in a way that puts the prosperity of families and

0:19:24 > 0:19:27businesses first.

0:19:27 > 0:19:29So as before you have five minutes to give a grilling.

0:19:29 > 0:19:31Off you go.

0:19:31 > 0:19:36Two weeks ago Jeremy Corbyn says said he was against staying in the

0:19:36 > 0:19:40customs union because it is protectionist against developing

0:19:40 > 0:19:43countries, do you agree?It's important to balance what we do need

0:19:43 > 0:19:47to see change in terms of international trade and support for

0:19:47 > 0:19:50developing countries. But also to recognise the contribution that

0:19:50 > 0:19:53being in the customs union and the European Union has made for our

0:19:53 > 0:20:00prosperity...Do you agree with Jeremy Corbyn?I think that a lot

0:20:00 > 0:20:03has been done to support development, International

0:20:03 > 0:20:06development...Forgive me, that's a different question... We're not

0:20:06 > 0:20:10talking about that, do you agree that the customs union is

0:20:10 > 0:20:13protectionist against developing countries?It can be for those

0:20:13 > 0:20:20countries that are in the customs union. That's very understood

0:20:20 > 0:20:25economics. It encourages trade creation and development between

0:20:25 > 0:20:30those countries, but it doesn't preclude, as has been shown by the

0:20:30 > 0:20:33over 60 trade agreements we have is a European Union with countries

0:20:33 > 0:20:36around the rolled, from having strong relationships with other

0:20:36 > 0:20:40countries. That's what I believe. -- countries around the world.There

0:20:40 > 0:20:45are lots of things we do not produce ourselves. We have to impose tariffs

0:20:45 > 0:20:50on oranges. In yours and my constituencies there are not orange

0:20:50 > 0:20:55plantations. Is it a reasonable thing that to protect Mediterranean

0:20:55 > 0:20:58orange growers we should be discriminating against producers in

0:20:58 > 0:21:02Africa, the Americas, developing countries, at a cost our own

0:21:02 > 0:21:07consumers?I believe what you can do is negotiate across the world in

0:21:07 > 0:21:10terms of how you encourage greater free trade and greater ways in which

0:21:10 > 0:21:15we can trade with different nations. That's what we do also already. We

0:21:15 > 0:21:20had no Norma 's track record in investing in farmers in Africa...On

0:21:20 > 0:21:25that point... -- we have had an enormous track record. That means we

0:21:25 > 0:21:29are giving Brussels total control of our trade policies but we are no

0:21:29 > 0:21:33longer EU members so we have no control.Almost 50% of our trade is

0:21:33 > 0:21:41with the EU. Over 70% of the companies... Over 70% of companies

0:21:41 > 0:21:45that export to the EU, that is jobs your constituents and my

0:21:45 > 0:21:49constituents will be dependent on, over 90% of that being small and

0:21:49 > 0:21:53medium-size enterprises. They look...I'm not having much joy

0:21:53 > 0:21:57getting answers to my questions. You are going off on a tangent. Let me

0:21:57 > 0:22:02have another go.I'm saying we can do both and that is what we should

0:22:02 > 0:22:06be doing.You think leaving the EU but staying in the customs union so

0:22:06 > 0:22:12Brussels controls 100% of our

0:22:14 > 0:22:15Brussels controls 100% of our trade but we have zero input... You think

0:22:15 > 0:22:17that gives us more influence in world trade than taking our own

0:22:17 > 0:22:21voice and vote in the world trade organisation and be able to do our

0:22:21 > 0:22:25own deals, is that what you are saying?When you talk about the WTO

0:22:25 > 0:22:28rules, if you look at the government's analysis which was an

0:22:28 > 0:22:33average of other studies, it shows even in the South East if there is a

0:22:33 > 0:22:36withdrawal based on...I'm going to have one more go to get an answer

0:22:36 > 0:22:38because you are telling me lots of interesting things which are nothing

0:22:38 > 0:22:43to do with what I'm asking. Let me have another go... The highest

0:22:43 > 0:22:50tariffs imposed by the customs union are on the items that most

0:22:50 > 0:22:54negatively impact people on low incomes, particularly food,

0:22:54 > 0:22:58clothing, and footwear. They pay a proportionately higher chunk of

0:22:58 > 0:23:00their weekly Budget on these commodities, these basic things.

0:23:00 > 0:23:04They are the most badly hit. We are clobbering poor people in this

0:23:04 > 0:23:08country in order to hurt developing nations. How can you come as a

0:23:08 > 0:23:12progressive politician with a proud history of standing up for people

0:23:12 > 0:23:16who are underprivileged, now stand there and defend a system that

0:23:16 > 0:23:21forces us to give more to wealthy French farmers than poor African

0:23:21 > 0:23:23farmers, and forces the highest bills to be paid by the lowest

0:23:23 > 0:23:27income people in Britain?I will fundamentally disagree with you. I

0:23:27 > 0:23:32believe being a member of the EU has been fundamental for our prosperity,

0:23:32 > 0:23:37for families and businesses. What you fail to highlight is numerous

0:23:37 > 0:23:42studies that show many British families are worse off as a result

0:23:42 > 0:23:46of us having had the referendum and now the uncertainty that is

0:23:46 > 0:23:54followed. People have already suffered. -- that has followed.You

0:23:54 > 0:23:59are still not answering. Let me have another crack at this. The countries

0:23:59 > 0:24:02closest to the EU economically. The countries that have opted to

0:24:02 > 0:24:07parallel or join the single market Norway, Switzerland, Iceland,

0:24:07 > 0:24:11Liechtenstein, none of them is interested in joining the customs

0:24:11 > 0:24:15union. Why do you think that is? They have separate arrangements.

0:24:15 > 0:24:19They have arrangements with each other. They have ways of resolving

0:24:19 > 0:24:23disputes. It is like a mini European Union in the way that they work

0:24:23 > 0:24:29together. I believe that we could consider approaching those countries

0:24:29 > 0:24:31to see whether that would be an arrangement that could work for

0:24:31 > 0:24:37Britain.That would mean leaving the customs union, right?Potentially

0:24:37 > 0:24:41alongside how we negotiate being in the customs union. Fundamental for

0:24:41 > 0:24:44peace in Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement. It's not just

0:24:44 > 0:24:48me saying that, it's the Irish government, the head of the Irish

0:24:48 > 0:24:53police, and the Irish people.Time is up. Thank you for your questions.

0:24:53 > 0:24:57What you are advocating is not Labour policy. Do you believe you

0:24:57 > 0:25:02will change the mind of Jeremy Corbyn?You know there is a debate

0:25:02 > 0:25:09going on in the Labour Party. That is not unexpected, because as the

0:25:09 > 0:25:13situation changes, as new facts come to light, as we have to consider

0:25:13 > 0:25:17what life will be like with the end state post the transition, we will

0:25:17 > 0:25:21have that debate. It is certainly the case that the range of views

0:25:21 > 0:25:24across the Labour Party are far less in terms of the spectrum of what's

0:25:24 > 0:25:29going on in the Conservative Party. The fundamental issue is we have a

0:25:29 > 0:25:33Prime Minister and cabinet that have no idea about end state. They have

0:25:33 > 0:25:37failed to reach any sort of agreement after two days away this

0:25:37 > 0:25:43week. And I think it is embarrassing for us as a nation that 19 months

0:25:43 > 0:25:46after the referendum we are in such disarray.Thank you both very much

0:25:46 > 0:25:49for coming in and asking the questions.

0:25:49 > 0:25:51And those of you in the South of England will be lucky

0:25:51 > 0:25:55enough to see more of Dan Hannan as he'll be appearing

0:25:55 > 0:25:56in the Sunday Politics South in just over ten minutes.

0:25:56 > 0:25:58And you can find more Brexit analysis

0:25:58 > 0:26:00and explanation on the BBC website, at bbc.co.uk/Brexit.

0:26:00 > 0:26:03The recent collapse of Carillion and the ending

0:26:03 > 0:26:05of the East Coast Rail franchise early has emboldened the

0:26:05 > 0:26:07Labour Party to push its agenda for renationalising key services

0:26:07 > 0:26:09such as rail, water and energy.

0:26:09 > 0:26:11But that's not all, the party is looking into supporting local

0:26:11 > 0:26:13economies by helping councils do things like bringing

0:26:13 > 0:26:16more services in house, using local small businesses

0:26:16 > 0:26:22where possible and helping to set up new small scale energy companies.

0:26:22 > 0:26:24So, is the plan workable, and can it help Labour shed

0:26:24 > 0:26:28the image that more state control will lead to inefficiency and a lack

0:26:28 > 0:26:29of innovation and investment?

0:26:29 > 0:26:30Elizabeth Glinka has travelled to Preston,

0:26:30 > 0:26:33a Labour council the party are championing as a model

0:26:33 > 0:26:41for the future, to find out more.

0:26:47 > 0:26:52When he visited in the 1850s car Marks said industrial Preston might

0:26:52 > 0:26:56be the staging post for an economic revolution. It's taken 160 years but

0:26:56 > 0:27:04he may have been onto. -- Karl Marx said.Preston described in the press

0:27:04 > 0:27:10as a pilgrimage for London folk. LAUGHTER

0:27:10 > 0:27:14The Shadow Chancellor just dropping in this week to heap praise on

0:27:14 > 0:27:20Preston's new locally focused economic plan. Nowhere is that plan

0:27:20 > 0:27:25more visible than at the city's trendy undercover market. Traders

0:27:25 > 0:27:30rush to finish their new stalls ahead of next week's reopening. The

0:27:30 > 0:27:34so-called Preston model borrows heavily from similar schemes in the

0:27:34 > 0:27:39American rust belt. It installs the virtues of keeping more services

0:27:39 > 0:27:42in-house using worker let cooperatives. And when it comes to

0:27:42 > 0:27:48big contracts like the redevelopment of this beautiful Victorian market,

0:27:48 > 0:27:52they go not to the overextended big boys like a religion but to smaller,

0:27:52 > 0:28:01local firms, keeping the money in the area. -- like Carillion but to

0:28:01 > 0:28:05smaller, local firms. Matt Brown, a local boy motivated by what he saw

0:28:05 > 0:28:09as the continued decline of a once great city, is behind this.We came

0:28:09 > 0:28:13to the conclusion that a fightback we've got to do it ourselves. We

0:28:13 > 0:28:16cannot be dependent on central government that is cutting back on

0:28:16 > 0:28:22money. The public sector is pretty much buying locally from local

0:28:22 > 0:28:26suppliers. We are looking to form cooperatives. We're selling our own

0:28:26 > 0:28:30energy in partnership with other councils. Pensions are invested

0:28:30 > 0:28:35locally. These alternatives around the world. In American cities like

0:28:35 > 0:28:38York, Cleveland, and Barcelona, people are waking up to the fact

0:28:38 > 0:28:42that we have an economy that works for the top 1%. -- like New York and

0:28:42 > 0:28:48Cleveland. And the rest of us are basically fighting for the scraps.

0:28:48 > 0:28:52Under the model the council has spent an additional £4 million

0:28:52 > 0:28:58locally since 2012. It has also persuaded universities and hospitals

0:28:58 > 0:29:02to redirect their spending towards local suppliers. And it isn't just

0:29:02 > 0:29:04Preston, a number of other Labour authorities are trying something

0:29:04 > 0:29:10new.We have local councils now that have set up energy companies to

0:29:10 > 0:29:15provide cheaper, renewable energy foot we have others running bus

0:29:15 > 0:29:22networks. -- cheaper, renewable energy and we have others running

0:29:22 > 0:29:25bus networks. It is a way of getting best value for money as well as

0:29:25 > 0:29:31Democratic controlled of services. Your critics might say this is

0:29:31 > 0:29:36cuddly, cooperative windowdressing for an agenda which, long-term, is

0:29:36 > 0:29:39about mass renationalisation, which you think the public would not be

0:29:39 > 0:29:41keen on. CHUCKLES

0:29:41 > 0:29:45How sceptical people can be. I am a socialist. We should share our

0:29:45 > 0:29:50wealth. We have councillors going out to get elected. When they get

0:29:50 > 0:29:53elected they say they will use our council resources locally and in

0:29:53 > 0:29:59that way we can benefit local people.Is it back to the future? It

0:29:59 > 0:30:02was revealed this week the government may be on the brink of

0:30:02 > 0:30:06renationalising the East Coast mainline. Labour's frontbencher has

0:30:06 > 0:30:10been clear about its aspiration to renationalise not just a rail but

0:30:10 > 0:30:15energy, the Post Office, and even water. This weekend the party held a

0:30:15 > 0:30:18conference to discuss the expansion of the Preston model, but others

0:30:18 > 0:30:24remain less convinced by its wisdom. This idea is very popular nowadays,

0:30:24 > 0:30:27both on the political right, people like Trump promoting it, and on the

0:30:27 > 0:30:33political left. But it is a failure to understand the benefits of trade.

0:30:33 > 0:30:39The idea you can enrich yourself with the border. I draw a line

0:30:39 > 0:30:42around an area. And somehow that will make us better off is magical

0:30:42 > 0:30:47thinking. How you become better off is through becoming more productive.

0:30:47 > 0:30:53These ideas are tricks for becoming richer that involve boundaries. It

0:30:53 > 0:30:58is an abiding fantasy, but it is a fantasy.The doubters may doubt, but

0:30:58 > 0:31:02in a post-Carillion world labour is convinced public opinion is pulling

0:31:02 > 0:31:05in its direction.

0:31:05 > 0:31:07Well, to help me to understand more about Labour's

0:31:07 > 0:31:10plans I'm joined by Labour's Shadow Transport Secretary Andy McDonald

0:31:10 > 0:31:14who's in Newcastle.

0:31:14 > 0:31:22Good morning, thank you for joining us.John McDonnell says the plans to

0:31:22 > 0:31:25re-nationalise energy, water and rail would cost absolutely nothing.

0:31:25 > 0:31:32That sounds too good to be true. Explain how it could work?In terms

0:31:32 > 0:31:36of the rail Wales, it would bring the railways back into public

0:31:36 > 0:31:42ownership at no cost at all. -- in terms of the railways. We would

0:31:42 > 0:31:49bring them back once the franchises expire. That would be considerable

0:31:49 > 0:31:53savings of £1 billion per annum. Then you will have to find £70

0:31:53 > 0:31:57billion for the water industry, nearly 40 billion for the National

0:31:57 > 0:32:05Grid, how can that cost nothing? Because you would be acquiring an

0:32:05 > 0:32:11asset, you would be acquiring an asset, you would be paying back the

0:32:11 > 0:32:15revenues which you derive over the businesses over time and you would

0:32:15 > 0:32:19keep the costs down for the consumer.So you would be adding to

0:32:19 > 0:32:23the national debt and you would have to pay interest on that debt which

0:32:23 > 0:32:28you would do out of the revenue you get from the companies, but you also

0:32:28 > 0:32:30say it will cost less from the consumers that bills would come

0:32:30 > 0:32:39down.If you have £30.5 billion of dividends paid out, if you run

0:32:39 > 0:32:44things on a not-for-profit basis, it can ensure that customers can get

0:32:44 > 0:32:47the best possible returns.That profit might be good for customers

0:32:47 > 0:32:50but it does not sound good for paying back the interest on the

0:32:50 > 0:32:55loans that you took out for buying the organisations in the first

0:32:55 > 0:33:00place?You heard John McDonnell express the analogy of having a

0:33:00 > 0:33:04mortgage over a property. You have acquired the assets, you have the

0:33:04 > 0:33:08income derived from renting it out, it pays the gas it and you have

0:33:08 > 0:33:12still got it. It makes consulate sent to hold those acids and make

0:33:12 > 0:33:18them work for the benefit of the citizens.If interest rates rise,

0:33:18 > 0:33:23after you bought that house and you are renting it out, it is important

0:33:23 > 0:33:29that costs can derive from the rental income. We know that rates

0:33:29 > 0:33:33can rise. There is every possibility that the interest you will be paying

0:33:33 > 0:33:38will not cover the profits and cost? It is no different to the position

0:33:38 > 0:33:44now. If water companies and energy companies are financed, they have

0:33:44 > 0:33:49those structures in place, the rate of interest that they pay on their

0:33:49 > 0:33:54financing is passed through to the consumer ultimately.I tell you how

0:33:54 > 0:33:58it is different now, and your system it would be passed to the taxpayer

0:33:58 > 0:34:03presumably. If any of these industries started making a loss,

0:34:03 > 0:34:08who picks up the tab for that?Have they made a loss since they were

0:34:08 > 0:34:14privatised? They have not, they have made very great profits.The reason

0:34:14 > 0:34:20they are giving up the east Coast franchise is because they have lost

0:34:20 > 0:34:24£200 million.That shows how the franchising system is completely and

0:34:24 > 0:34:30utterly flawed and should be abandoned.If the government run

0:34:30 > 0:34:35East Coast Mainline lost £2 billion, who would be on the hook, the

0:34:35 > 0:34:40taxpayer?When the government last ran East Coast Mainline they ran it

0:34:40 > 0:34:44at a profit, it brought money into the Treasury. We have a good history

0:34:44 > 0:34:48of running the railways correctly and not having this bailout to

0:34:48 > 0:34:52Richard Branson and Brian Souter and the rest of them or seeing the

0:34:52 > 0:34:59dividends and profits overseas to the state-owned companies of

0:34:59 > 0:35:03continental Europe. We want to put an end to that and make sure we run

0:35:03 > 0:35:09our railways for the benefits of the public.Let's look at one company,

0:35:09 > 0:35:13Bristol energy which looks like the kind of company you are advocating.

0:35:13 > 0:35:19It is set up locally and has ethical behaviour. There are no shareholders

0:35:19 > 0:35:23so nobody is taking a profit out of it. It has lost 2 million over two

0:35:23 > 0:35:28years and does not expect to be profitable until 2021. But

0:35:28 > 0:35:33sound like a great deal for the taxpayer if that is how you're going

0:35:33 > 0:35:35to run the National Grid.If

0:35:35 > 0:35:36taxpayer if that is how you're going are recouping the losses and they

0:35:36 > 0:35:38are recouping the losses and they have the trajectory of growth and

0:35:38 > 0:35:40are recouping the losses and they greater incomes, they will look at

0:35:40 > 0:35:47that and say to successful.The Labour government...They got tax

0:35:47 > 0:35:50breaks, public capital to set them breaks, public capital to set them

0:35:50 > 0:35:55up in the first instance, they were heavily subsidised so they

0:35:55 > 0:35:57up in the first instance, they were on and enjoy the benefits of private

0:35:57 > 0:36:01enterprise that does not benefit the consumer or the taxpayer or

0:36:01 > 0:36:02enterprise that does not benefit the citizens, however you wish

0:36:02 > 0:36:06enterprise that does not benefit the describe it.The consumer and the

0:36:06 > 0:36:08taxpayer may be the same person but

0:36:08 > 0:36:10describe it.The consumer and the they have a different financial

0:36:10 > 0:36:12they have a different financial relationship with these companies.

0:36:12 > 0:36:18What comes first, using any profit or revenue you have used to acquire

0:36:18 > 0:36:20What comes first, using any profit these assets or cutting bills?You

0:36:20 > 0:36:22What comes first, using any profit do both. If you have got that income

0:36:22 > 0:36:25you can use it for those purposes. you can use it for those purposes.

0:36:25 > 0:36:31Do cut energy bills or do you repay the debt?Those who have benefited

0:36:31 > 0:36:33from privatisation of had

0:36:33 > 0:36:35the debt?Those who have benefited benefit of not only using that money

0:36:35 > 0:36:37to pay the debt they incurred

0:36:37 > 0:36:38benefit of not only using that money the assets, they are now using it to

0:36:38 > 0:36:43make dividend payments out to their shareholders. It clearly can be done

0:36:43 > 0:36:48and we want to be in that position so it works for the benefit of

0:36:48 > 0:36:53people and not for corporate entities.The shareholders are not

0:36:53 > 0:36:57all millionaire individuals. A lot of this is owned by pension funds to

0:36:57 > 0:37:01which many workers pensions are held, can you guarantee that you

0:37:01 > 0:37:10will reinforce the Leave reimburse them at full market value so that

0:37:10 > 0:37:14nobody's pension will lose out?The market value is the market value at

0:37:14 > 0:37:19the time these assets are required. John McDonnell has made it clear

0:37:19 > 0:37:26that they will be acquired at that rate.But not for cash, in exchange

0:37:26 > 0:37:30for government bonds?They are still in that strong position of having

0:37:30 > 0:37:35the value fully reflected. What is happening is that not everybody is a

0:37:35 > 0:37:39shareholder. It means there is greater equity for all of the

0:37:39 > 0:37:43population, not only an narrow segment of it, surely that has got

0:37:43 > 0:37:48to be for the benefit of everybody. Thank you for talking to us.

0:37:48 > 0:37:50It's coming up to 11.40, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:37:50 > 0:37:52Still to come:

0:37:52 > 0:37:56We'll look at the implications to the charity sector of the latest

0:37:56 > 0:38:00Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics.

0:38:00 > 0:38:03It's the weekend when the curtain came down on the extraordinary

0:38:03 > 0:38:06political career of Gerry Adams as President of Sinn Fein.

0:38:06 > 0:38:08As Mary-Lou McDonald now takes the stage,

0:38:08 > 0:38:11I'll ask the party's new leader about the challenges that face her.

0:38:11 > 0:38:15And here with their thoughts on this big change in republican leadership,

0:38:15 > 0:38:17commentator Chris Donnelly and Suzanne Breen from

0:38:17 > 0:38:24the Belfast Telegraph.

0:38:24 > 0:38:27So, it's all change at the top of Sinn Fein with Mary Lou McDonald

0:38:27 > 0:38:32and Michelle O'Neill as President and Vice-President of Sinn Fein.

0:38:32 > 0:38:35And what a time to take charge - the possibility of a deal

0:38:35 > 0:38:37at Stormont, the challenge of winning over more

0:38:37 > 0:38:39voters in the Republic, and the debate over new abortion

0:38:39 > 0:38:43laws will be dominating their thoughts over the next few months.

0:38:43 > 0:38:46Mary-Lou McDonald is live in Dublin - and I'll be

0:38:46 > 0:38:47talking to her in a moment.

0:38:47 > 0:38:49But first, our Dublin Correspondent Shane Harrison reports

0:38:49 > 0:38:52from the Ard Fheis in south Dublin yesterday, with a flavour

0:38:52 > 0:38:57of the task that lies ahead.

0:38:57 > 0:39:03It was a rugby weekend in Dublin. That most middle class of games. But

0:39:03 > 0:39:08few Irish supporters believed Mary Lou McDonald, a middle-class South

0:39:08 > 0:39:12Dublin woman taking over the leadership of Sinn Fein would change

0:39:12 > 0:39:17their view of the party.There is a lot of history. I think a lot of us

0:39:17 > 0:39:21are not ready to move on yet from what we remember that Sinn Fein

0:39:21 > 0:39:27stands for.They are probably better off with Mary Lou but it is still

0:39:27 > 0:39:33Sinn Fein.No interest at all in Sinn Fein.I am not a follower of

0:39:33 > 0:39:37Sinn Fein so it doesn't matter if it is a man or woman but I wish well.

0:39:37 > 0:39:44Inside the main hall as Michelle O'Neill and Marylou McDonald were

0:39:44 > 0:39:47being elected vice president and president of Sinn Fein some

0:39:47 > 0:39:50delegates believed the advent of what was jokingly called girl power

0:39:50 > 0:39:56would help the party appealed to new voters.Being a young woman I really

0:39:56 > 0:40:00look up to Marylou, I think she is a great leader and character. I think

0:40:00 > 0:40:05she will bring a lot of freshness, something we haven't seen.The Ard

0:40:05 > 0:40:09Fheis was given to understand that negotiations at Stormont aimed at

0:40:09 > 0:40:13restoring devolution were at a crucial stage but one former

0:40:13 > 0:40:17minister stressed the importance of dealing with an Irish Language Act.

0:40:17 > 0:40:22It has to stand alone. We are happy to have other languages protected

0:40:22 > 0:40:25but the Irish Language Act needs to serve the needs of the Irish people

0:40:25 > 0:40:33speaking community.This weekend's leadership Ard Fheis didn't deal

0:40:33 > 0:40:37with the Republic's abortion referendum to repeal the eighth

0:40:37 > 0:40:40Amendment to the Constitution that gives equal rights to life to mother

0:40:40 > 0:40:45and the unborn. Those who self described as progressive say they

0:40:45 > 0:40:47favour unrestricted access to abortion for the first 12 weeks of

0:40:47 > 0:40:52pregnancy. While the party supports repeal that are different views

0:40:52 > 0:40:58about what should happen with regard to the 12 week suggestion.I don't

0:40:58 > 0:41:02think we are ready for that yet. Current Sinn Fein policy goes far

0:41:02 > 0:41:07enough.Sinn Fein has that discussion to have and I will hold

0:41:07 > 0:41:12the council until we have opportunity to properly engage as a

0:41:12 > 0:41:15party as we do in relation to all policy positions and that is

0:41:15 > 0:41:19something we will be addressing very shortly.It is a highly emotive

0:41:19 > 0:41:25issue. I am on the progressive side of the party but I abide with

0:41:25 > 0:41:30whatever decision the party mix. Sinn Fein's 2018 Ard Fheis is

0:41:30 > 0:41:34expected to take place within months. It is then when the party

0:41:34 > 0:41:39will almost certainly come to its decision on that most controversial

0:41:39 > 0:41:42of subjects, unrestricted access to abortion during the first 12 weeks.

0:41:42 > 0:41:43Shane Harrison reporting from yesterday's

0:41:43 > 0:41:44special Ard Fheis in Dublin.

0:41:44 > 0:41:46And joining me now live from our studio there

0:41:46 > 0:41:48is the new President of Sinn Fein, Mary-Lou McDonald.

0:41:48 > 0:41:55Hello - and congratulations on your elevation.

0:41:55 > 0:42:03Thank you so much.It is great to be on with you. Your predecessor Gerry

0:42:03 > 0:42:07Adams was in the job of course for almost 35 years. You described him

0:42:07 > 0:42:10yesterday as your political mentor and inspirational leader and great

0:42:10 > 0:42:15friend but you also talked about the need for innovation, fresh thinking,

0:42:15 > 0:42:18bold ideas. Now with the time for new leadership you said, so where

0:42:18 > 0:42:25are you planning to take Sinn Fein? I of course paid tribute to Gerry

0:42:25 > 0:42:28and his many long and very successful years of leadership of

0:42:28 > 0:42:37our party, and I set out yesterday a sense, a vision and energy to

0:42:37 > 0:42:41advance Sinn Fein to the next level. We have grown extraordinarily over

0:42:41 > 0:42:47the last number of years, north and south, we are a national

0:42:47 > 0:42:50organisation. We have national objectives, not least securing a

0:42:50 > 0:42:58referendum on unity, the building of a new Ireland. Our politics is very

0:42:58 > 0:43:00expensive, very ambitious and I am very clear in the years ahead that

0:43:00 > 0:43:07we need to really have a very strong sense of purpose as we go about the

0:43:07 > 0:43:10business of building relationships with unionism. Building

0:43:10 > 0:43:14relationships with new communities, building international understanding

0:43:14 > 0:43:20and support for the changes that are happening in Ireland, not least with

0:43:20 > 0:43:25the advent or threat of Brexit. So it is big politics and I was

0:43:25 > 0:43:30encouraging our base to think big come to be ambitious and not to be

0:43:30 > 0:43:35afraid of innovation just because we have always done things in a

0:43:35 > 0:43:38particular way, doesn't mean that we have to forever think or do things

0:43:38 > 0:43:43in that same way, so we have lots of new members and I want us to really

0:43:43 > 0:43:51harness that energy of newer members, younger members, a more

0:43:51 > 0:43:57diverse membership. So that it feeds into the broader politics that isn't

0:43:57 > 0:44:02just the preserve of Sinn Fein, let me emphasise, around not just

0:44:02 > 0:44:05imagining our talking about a new Ireland but getting to work and

0:44:05 > 0:44:12making that happen.But you need to connect with those voters that Shane

0:44:12 > 0:44:14Harrison was talking to yesterday and so far it is about to say they

0:44:14 > 0:44:17are not biting, they are not persuaded with what Sinn Fein is

0:44:17 > 0:44:22offering them so how do you make that connection?Well, our mandate

0:44:22 > 0:44:29here in the South, as you call it, has grown substantially over the

0:44:29 > 0:44:32last number of years. Sinn Fein now is regarded as one of the big three

0:44:32 > 0:44:39political parties in politics in this jurisdiction and we are only

0:44:39 > 0:44:42starting. I don't pretend for a second that we don't have a lot of

0:44:42 > 0:44:46work to do. I don't pretend for a second that there aren't sections of

0:44:46 > 0:44:51our people and sections of society that we don't need to reach out to

0:44:51 > 0:44:56to have more contact with, to convince them that the merit of

0:44:56 > 0:45:00social equality and social justice, to convince them of the merit of a

0:45:00 > 0:45:06prosperous Ireland but where prosperity is shared. To convince

0:45:06 > 0:45:11them of the opportunity of new Ireland. Of as you appreciate I only

0:45:11 > 0:45:16in the 24 hours so I am guessing you're going to give me a little bit

0:45:16 > 0:45:20more breathing space to actually set dollar that in train. We are after a

0:45:20 > 0:45:24great start but we have a lot of work do.Do you think it will be

0:45:24 > 0:45:28easier for you to connect with those individuals because you are yourself

0:45:28 > 0:45:31the product of a middle-class home, very different in terms of your

0:45:31 > 0:45:37background and perhaps your style from your immediate predecessor?

0:45:37 > 0:45:41Obviously I am different to Gerry in many ways, generational latecomer

0:45:41 > 0:45:49geographically, gender, all of that, I bring my own approach and my own

0:45:49 > 0:45:54style and own sense of myself and my own personality, but whatever way

0:45:54 > 0:46:02you go about this thing in political life, it is all about people knowing

0:46:02 > 0:46:07you, people having a sense of view, people having trust in you and also

0:46:07 > 0:46:12having confidence in your policy platform and finally in your ability

0:46:12 > 0:46:17to deliver on that policy platform. So I don't underestimate my task for

0:46:17 > 0:46:27a second. I am a great believer in hard work, and effort, and as I was

0:46:27 > 0:46:30saying yesterday that the Ard Fheis, some things that are having with

0:46:30 > 0:46:34achieving, it is worth maybe working for and that is what I am doing I am

0:46:34 > 0:46:40not taking anything for granted but I think we have a very strong

0:46:40 > 0:46:43progressive, hopeful, mother and message for modern Ireland and I

0:46:43 > 0:46:49believe that it transcends, we are a party of working people and social

0:46:49 > 0:46:54justice. I believe the middle classes have an interest in that as

0:46:54 > 0:46:59well.We have got a lot to cover here in a short period of time. I

0:46:59 > 0:47:03will try and keep my questions you would if you can try and keep your

0:47:03 > 0:47:07answers short as well. The leadership of Sinn Fein committee of

0:47:07 > 0:47:10the president, Michelle O'Neill is the vice president, how will you

0:47:10 > 0:47:13divide the responsibility of the Republic of Ireland and also for

0:47:13 > 0:47:18what is happening at this critical stage in Northern Ireland at the

0:47:18 > 0:47:22moment? Do you believe that Michelle O'Neill will be back or will be

0:47:22 > 0:47:24serving as Deputy First Minister in Northern Ireland sooner rather than

0:47:24 > 0:47:29later? Is a deal imminent in your view?I will be back in Belfast

0:47:29 > 0:47:36tomorrow morning. I believe a deal can be done and we have said

0:47:36 > 0:47:40repeatedly on the public record and privately that we won the

0:47:40 > 0:47:45institutions to work and we want genuine grounded power-sharing that

0:47:45 > 0:47:49delivers everybody right across the community and for that to happen it

0:47:49 > 0:47:54has to be on the basis of mutual respect. It has to be genuine and

0:47:54 > 0:48:00enthusiastic engagement with power-sharing and I believe that our

0:48:00 > 0:48:04universe -- unionist friends need to come with the new dispensation in

0:48:04 > 0:48:09that spirit and that way, we are certainly willing to do that.We are

0:48:09 > 0:48:13proud rising comprises well because you can't have a 10-0 win to the DUP

0:48:13 > 0:48:17were Sinn Fein, do you accept your idea of an Irish Language Act might

0:48:17 > 0:48:20look a bit different from what you would like and you make have to go

0:48:20 > 0:48:23back on your previously stated position that you would go back into

0:48:23 > 0:48:29an Executive with Arlene Foster as First Minister this side of the RHI

0:48:29 > 0:48:33enquiry, reporting Michelle O'Neill has been crystal clear about that.

0:48:33 > 0:48:38This isn't a football match so it is not a case of 10-0 or 5-0 or marking

0:48:38 > 0:48:45up the scoresheet, this is issues that referred to people's rights,

0:48:45 > 0:48:49the right to marriage equality, language rights, the issue around a

0:48:49 > 0:48:53Bill of Rights, the issue around funding for legacy and quests which

0:48:53 > 0:48:58I don't believe anybody, I don't care which party you are in, you can

0:48:58 > 0:49:03stand over a situation where families of survivors are left

0:49:03 > 0:49:06decades waiting for something, a standard norm of an inquest. I think

0:49:06 > 0:49:10that is outrageous. I figured that they just weary and discussing the

0:49:10 > 0:49:17release of funding for those legacy inquest.These are contested issues

0:49:17 > 0:49:20and my point is that across the board in all of these issues, in

0:49:20 > 0:49:23legacy, Irish Language Act, in who serves as the DUP First Minister,

0:49:23 > 0:49:26there needs to become the rise and needs to become arise but going from

0:49:26 > 0:49:32Sinn Fein and from the DUP.This we are a party that understand the

0:49:32 > 0:49:38necessity for dialogue and to accommodate others as well, maybe

0:49:38 > 0:49:43better than others, there is no issue there. We have said progress

0:49:43 > 0:49:45but I want to make the point back to you and I think this is where

0:49:45 > 0:49:51politics needs to go, we need to stop seeing things in those kind of

0:49:51 > 0:49:57polarised sense, a win for me, a loose preview, at the end of the day

0:49:57 > 0:50:01whatever we are elected from we are charged with shaping public policies

0:50:01 > 0:50:06and legislation and frameworks that actually serve a happy life, a

0:50:06 > 0:50:11productive life and the rights of people. I don't care if there are

0:50:11 > 0:50:15orange or green, I am not willing to get into Abe political dialogue with

0:50:15 > 0:50:21anybody that is as crude as a win for me and loss for you, and decided

0:50:21 > 0:50:24the issue of legacy and dealing with the past very specifically because I

0:50:24 > 0:50:29am very aware of the fact that we need to start in substantive ways

0:50:29 > 0:50:33demonstrating leadership on these issues. We are not going to agree on

0:50:33 > 0:50:38the past. We're not going to get a single shared narrative, so we have

0:50:38 > 0:50:40to have respect for each other. There are certain things upon we

0:50:40 > 0:50:47have to simply agreed to disagree and we need to respect each other

0:50:47 > 0:50:51and allow wage of the space to articulate our politics to remember

0:50:51 > 0:50:57our past, and to move on. The talks are underway. I think we are now at

0:50:57 > 0:51:02decision time. I think the coming week has to be decisive. I will be

0:51:02 > 0:51:06up in Belfast alongside Michelle O'Neill, a woman in whom I have the

0:51:06 > 0:51:12utmost faith and confidence. And we were together, we are a national

0:51:12 > 0:51:16party, so it is not even a case of divvying things out. I trust and

0:51:16 > 0:51:21need the support of Michelle and vice versa. I am believer, I am the

0:51:21 > 0:51:25national leader, but be in no doubt that Michelle is my wing woman. She

0:51:25 > 0:51:31is absolutely a person of standing and authority in her own right in

0:51:31 > 0:51:36our party, nationally and deservedly so.That is an interesting point.

0:51:36 > 0:51:39This is an issue that has been talked about appear at the moment,

0:51:39 > 0:51:43what about the senior republican figures from the North who have been

0:51:43 > 0:51:47influential in determining Sinn Fein policy in the past, people who are

0:51:47 > 0:51:51from the wider republican family who aren't elected representatives but

0:51:51 > 0:51:55who are well known to be influential in the past? Will they still wield

0:51:55 > 0:52:02influence under your leadership or is this a clear break from the past?

0:52:02 > 0:52:05We have people and influential people within Sinn Fein at every

0:52:05 > 0:52:11level. Local levels, regionally, we have a number of people who are

0:52:11 > 0:52:14political thinkers, political activists, some of them have

0:52:14 > 0:52:18considerable experience, others as I was saying earlier are newer to the

0:52:18 > 0:52:22party, and everybody brings their analysis and politics.But at the

0:52:22 > 0:52:28end of the day will you be calling the shots?Yes. For the avoidance of

0:52:28 > 0:52:34doubt, I am the leader of the party and I will act as leader of the

0:52:34 > 0:52:38party, I am a team player, I believe in a collaborative effort. But where

0:52:38 > 0:52:43there are calls to be made I will be making them.Just a final question

0:52:43 > 0:52:45about abortion which is a hugely contentious as you at the moment as

0:52:45 > 0:52:49a move towards the referendum on appealing the eighth Amendment, you

0:52:49 > 0:52:53said you will consult the people and listen to people, are you going to

0:52:53 > 0:52:58give people a free vote on that within the Dail in future will there

0:52:58 > 0:53:03be a party policy which may back abortion in 12 weeks which some of

0:53:03 > 0:53:07your TDs and party membership could be very uncomfortable about?You are

0:53:07 > 0:53:11right to say this is a contentious issue and I absolutely accept that

0:53:11 > 0:53:17it is a matter of private conscience, but it is also a matter

0:53:17 > 0:53:20of public policy and that is where the party and where we, those of us

0:53:20 > 0:53:27that are legislators, come into the frame, it is a bad shaping law and

0:53:27 > 0:53:30policy that protects women's lives and health and allows doctors and

0:53:30 > 0:53:35medics to actually do their job. You ask me on the issue of a free vote.

0:53:35 > 0:53:41That is not envisaged, no, and let me just remind you that on three

0:53:41 > 0:53:48occasions Sinn Fein Ard Fheis Mac have had motions put them suggesting

0:53:48 > 0:53:52a conscience clause or free vote and on three occasions the party has

0:53:52 > 0:53:56refused that, not because there are different views on the party, there

0:53:56 > 0:53:59are very clearly are, but because we as a political party understand that

0:53:59 > 0:54:03you don't duck the hard issues and that as the master of Public policy

0:54:03 > 0:54:08you have to have party policy and leading the front and we trust

0:54:08 > 0:54:12women.Very interesting to trigger thoughts. Thank you for talking to

0:54:12 > 0:54:16us. Appreciate your time.

0:54:16 > 0:54:19So, what do my guests of the day make of that?

0:54:19 > 0:54:20Suzanne Breen, Political Editor of the Belfast Telegraph,

0:54:20 > 0:54:25and commentator Chris Donnelly are with me.

0:54:25 > 0:54:29Suzanne, she is no stranger to television studios and she is only

0:54:29 > 0:54:33in the job 24 hours stopper is a limit to what she can say and do.

0:54:33 > 0:54:37But what do you think we can expect from her in the top job?She is

0:54:37 > 0:54:43clearly a very good media performer. She is never going to mess up and

0:54:43 > 0:54:47have a car crash interviews during leadership debates like Gerry Adams

0:54:47 > 0:54:52her predecessor did. She is a woman who is a great eye for detail and

0:54:52 > 0:54:55policy. I think we can CC is a people person and in a party

0:54:55 > 0:54:58election playing those skills are very important. She is good with the

0:54:58 > 0:55:02ordinary man or woman on the street on the ground will stop in terms of

0:55:02 > 0:55:07will there be a huge difference in her style of leadership and putting

0:55:07 > 0:55:11the meat on the bones, I don't know. I think that remains to be seen.

0:55:11 > 0:55:15Certainly no one will ever ask Mary Lou have you been in the IRA? And it

0:55:15 > 0:55:21makes it easier for Fine Gael or Fianna Fail to go in to government

0:55:21 > 0:55:26with her after the next election. She made clear, I am president of

0:55:26 > 0:55:30Sinn Fein and I will call the shots. What do you think unionists will

0:55:30 > 0:55:34make of her and her apparent enthusiasm are Stormont by Tom and

0:55:34 > 0:55:36running again, willingness she said to hold the principles but also

0:55:36 > 0:55:43become almost?One of the themes in a speech yesterday, and it was quite

0:55:43 > 0:55:46striking that the incoming Sinn Fein leader, she pointed out the fact

0:55:46 > 0:55:51that she last year took part in the British -- reddish Remembrance

0:55:51 > 0:55:53Sunday event in London. She wants to be seen to respect the unionist

0:55:53 > 0:56:00tradition but she was demanding the same from unionists. She has been

0:56:00 > 0:56:03coming on to that in her interview, we won't have a shared narrative

0:56:03 > 0:56:08about the past but what we can do is respectably agree to disagree and

0:56:08 > 0:56:11that is what she wants to bring towards engagement with the unionist

0:56:11 > 0:56:15tradition. I think it is quite interesting, I do see, I think

0:56:15 > 0:56:18within Sinn Fein they know someone has to take the role that Martin

0:56:18 > 0:56:21McGuinness played as Deputy First Minister and in terms of our

0:56:21 > 0:56:23preaching to unionist and they think worse than Michelle O'Neill, Mary

0:56:23 > 0:56:32Lou McDonald would see herself in taking that role.She said,

0:56:32 > 0:56:35described Michelle O'Neill as her wing woman in the north.She is

0:56:35 > 0:56:41making very clear because she is heard talk that Mary Lou McDonald

0:56:41 > 0:56:44will be influenced by other forces, she is setting out that you will be

0:56:44 > 0:56:50the party leader and the one that takes in people to the party.Other

0:56:50 > 0:56:54individuals, we will get into details, but people from the wider

0:56:54 > 0:56:56republican family, people who served in the IRA in the past two were

0:56:56 > 0:57:02clearly influential alongside Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, is

0:57:02 > 0:57:05their influence waning now under the leadership of Mary Lou McDonald?Is

0:57:05 > 0:57:10that what we can expect? I don't think so. They think their influence

0:57:10 > 0:57:15will only wane when the time is up and they pass away. While they are

0:57:15 > 0:57:18here think they always will have enormous clout and I really struggle

0:57:18 > 0:57:20to believe that Mary Lou McDonald, she says she will be the boss of

0:57:20 > 0:57:25Gerry Adams, will she be the boss of them? I don't think so.Interesting.

0:57:25 > 0:57:27Thank you both for now.

0:57:27 > 0:57:30Let's just pause for a moment for a look back at the political

0:57:30 > 0:57:35week gone past in sixty seconds - with Stephen Walker.

0:57:35 > 0:57:43Gerry Kelly's car was clamped. Later he admitted he made a mistake.It

0:57:43 > 0:57:49was a bad decision. I moved ahead of it and that was it but that don't

0:57:49 > 0:57:51happen again.Bolt cutters also turned up at Westminster as we

0:57:51 > 0:57:56marked 100 years of women getting the vote.Things like chaining

0:57:56 > 0:58:01yourself to statues in the building and they are still captured today.

0:58:01 > 0:58:06Ian Paisley issued a familiar battle cry when it came to Brexit.It's

0:58:06 > 0:58:08about time the Government demonstrated a no surrender attitude

0:58:08 > 0:58:16to the European bureaucrats... Declan Kearney said it was the IRA

0:58:16 > 0:58:18and Sinn Fein leaderships that helped to form the civil rights

0:58:18 > 0:58:23movement.The civil rights movement when you look at it through the lens

0:58:23 > 0:58:27of historical objectivity had multiple parents and gave birth to

0:58:27 > 0:58:33many children.But not everyone agreed.The article that Declan

0:58:33 > 0:58:39Kearney wrote is delusional.

0:58:41 > 0:58:42Stephen Walker there.

0:58:42 > 0:58:47And let's have a few final thoughts from Suzanne and Chris.

0:58:47 > 0:58:51Suzanne, she was very clear about Stormont, she says she is up for a

0:58:51 > 0:58:54deal.She does and I will be very surprised that there isn't a deal

0:58:54 > 0:58:59next week. In the Belfast Telegraph we broke the story exclusively that

0:58:59 > 0:59:02a deal was imminent and getting a lot of journalists and commentators

0:59:02 > 0:59:05have been asleep at the wheel on this one. They have been looking at

0:59:05 > 0:59:10previous talks and thinking this isn't going to be any different,

0:59:10 > 0:59:18nothing really much has changed. If you look at the signs at what Arlene

0:59:18 > 0:59:24Foster as saying, Colin Murphy said at the weekend, really be mood music

0:59:24 > 0:59:28is there. I think there are still some things to sign off but they

0:59:28 > 0:59:33would be very surprised if there isn't a substantial movement,

0:59:33 > 0:59:35commentators and journalists and media outlets have got this wrong

0:59:35 > 0:59:40and are out of touch.Chris, do you think that is the case? Certainly a

0:59:40 > 0:59:43deal may be there, but it isn't signed sealed and delivered and if

0:59:43 > 0:59:47we are to believe everybody that there was nary a deal in November

0:59:47 > 0:59:51and that fell at the last hurdle.I think the difference this time

0:59:51 > 0:59:54because we have seen in the past the DUP have leaked more favourable

0:59:54 > 0:59:58things and if that was jockey for position, the difference is from

0:59:58 > 1:00:02Sinn Fein, particularly Colum Murphy, very positive soundings of

1:00:02 > 1:00:07the weekend, very different language from him, at a time from Sinn Fein

1:00:07 > 1:00:10over the past 13 months so I would say at this point it does look more

1:00:10 > 1:00:17like they will be a deal will stop briefly, comprising terms of the

1:00:17 > 1:00:19Irish Language Act, legacy issues, Arlene Foster returning as First

1:00:19 > 1:00:23Minister, presumably they will be, right?I think I'll will be stunned

1:00:23 > 1:00:26if Arlene Foster does not return as First Minister. I think Sinn Fein

1:00:26 > 1:00:30will comprise on that issue. There is no way Arlene Foster won't be

1:00:30 > 1:00:33First Minister from what I hear. There will be some deal on the Irish

1:00:33 > 1:00:38line would act that allows both sides to save face so to speak, each

1:00:38 > 1:00:41will be able to sell it as some sort of victory. In terms of equal

1:00:41 > 1:00:45marriage I think they can will be kicked down the road on that and

1:00:45 > 1:00:48that the DUP does acknowledge to Sinn Fein but it doesn't have the

1:00:48 > 1:00:53numbers for a petition of concern any more.Compromise isn't

1:00:53 > 1:00:58necessarily a dirty word? Know but I think people will look very clearly

1:00:58 > 1:01:01at the implementation and what that will entail.Thank you. Back to

1:01:01 > 1:01:07Sarah in London.

1:01:07 > 1:01:10Thank you very much and thanks to all of my guests.

1:01:14 > 1:01:20Welcome back. A few minutes ago we were talking about plans for

1:01:20 > 1:01:26renationalisation, something which they think is a good vote winning

1:01:26 > 1:01:33policy in these times. Are they right?Nationalisation had a boom in

1:01:33 > 1:01:36popularity. It never went out of

1:01:36 > 1:01:38right?Nationalisation had a boom in favour. Since the bailouts of rail

1:01:38 > 1:01:41companies, since the appalling things which happen

1:01:41 > 1:01:44companies, since the appalling have to get a train every day, never

1:01:44 > 1:01:56mind just the south-east, it has been a nightmare and costs are

1:01:56 > 1:01:58been a nightmare and costs are ratcheting up. Even the water

1:01:58 > 1:02:01companies are not opposing it. I

1:02:01 > 1:02:03ratcheting up. Even the water think they are pushing at

1:02:03 > 1:02:05ratcheting up. Even the water door and it is a worthwhile

1:02:05 > 1:02:09ratcheting up. Even the water for them to do.John McDonnell

1:02:09 > 1:02:11ratcheting up. Even the water it can be done at absolutely no cost

1:02:11 > 1:02:16you would have an asset on your

1:02:16 > 1:02:19it can be done at absolutely no cost government books, is that realistic?

1:02:19 > 1:02:24No, that is the aspect of it. I can see the political logic. That is

1:02:24 > 1:02:30No, that is the aspect of it. I can aspect I find most confusing. This

1:02:30 > 1:02:32argument that Parliament rather than

1:02:32 > 1:02:33aspect I find most confusing. This the market dictates the price

1:02:33 > 1:02:35aspect I find most confusing. This which the acids is bought, the

1:02:35 > 1:02:41signal is not just people who are in those industries, the signal list

1:02:41 > 1:02:42signal is not just people who are in all other investors in just about

1:02:42 > 1:02:45everything else. If you start with everything else. If you start with

1:02:45 > 1:02:49certain sectors, what will be nationalised next? The impact that

1:02:49 > 1:02:50certain sectors, what will be then has on people who are investing

1:02:50 > 1:02:54money in the UK is simply a dawning money in the UK is simply a dawning

1:02:54 > 1:02:56realisation that what they

1:02:56 > 1:02:59money in the UK is simply a dawning what they own, what they paid for

1:02:59 > 1:03:03might be stolen or might be discounted.Labour were fairly clear

1:03:03 > 1:03:06in their manifesto, they talked

1:03:06 > 1:03:08discounted.Labour were fairly clear about the National Grid, water, rail

1:03:08 > 1:03:11discounted.Labour were fairly clear and the Royal Mail, nothing else.As

1:03:11 > 1:03:13someone who has been

1:03:13 > 1:03:14and the Royal Mail, nothing else.As attention to what John McDonnell and

1:03:14 > 1:03:17attention to what John McDonnell and Seamus Milne think, I will take

1:03:17 > 1:03:19Seamus Milne think, I will take their evidence of what they have

1:03:19 > 1:03:21Seamus Milne think, I will take written and said over the last 30

1:03:21 > 1:03:22Seamus Milne think, I will take years rather than what they

1:03:22 > 1:03:25Seamus Milne think, I will take trying to do now to win an election.

1:03:25 > 1:03:30Seamus Milne think, I will take I would not try and extrapolate what

1:03:30 > 1:03:35Labour policy would be over what she must have said, he has only been

1:03:35 > 1:03:38Labour policy would be over what she their communications guide for a few

1:03:38 > 1:03:42years, before that he was a Guardian columnist.I'm judging people on

1:03:42 > 1:03:44years, before that he was a Guardian their record of what they have said

1:03:44 > 1:03:46years, before that he was a Guardian to Andrew Marr, what they

1:03:46 > 1:03:50years, before that he was a Guardian written and what John McDonnell

1:03:50 > 1:03:51years, before that he was a Guardian argued for. I simply question

1:03:51 > 1:03:56whether we should accept their guarantees when they are trying to

1:03:56 > 1:04:01bargain their way into power. Listen, nobody, it is something

1:04:01 > 1:04:04which only happens to this lot of

1:04:04 > 1:04:05Listen, nobody, it is something Labour leaders, that if people

1:04:05 > 1:04:09cannot critique the policy they suggest, then critique what they

1:04:09 > 1:04:15perceive to be the nefarious under

1:04:15 > 1:04:17suggest, then critique what they policy. The truth is, when we talk

1:04:17 > 1:04:22about privatising industries we used to talk about that, we never talked

1:04:22 > 1:04:24about the outrageous bailouts they about the outrageous bailouts they

1:04:24 > 1:04:26would need, we never talked

1:04:26 > 1:04:27about the outrageous bailouts they what they would do to actual

1:04:27 > 1:04:29about the outrageous bailouts they we just talked about this in terms

1:04:29 > 1:04:33of principle, do you want this of principle, do you want this

1:04:33 > 1:04:38privatised with efficiency or nationalised?There problems with

1:04:38 > 1:04:39some things that now

1:04:39 > 1:04:41nationalised?There problems with Thatcher would not say that was the

1:04:41 > 1:04:44Thatcher would not say that was the original intention. However, she and

1:04:44 > 1:04:47those around her were completely those around her were completely

1:04:47 > 1:04:48clear and explicit about that

1:04:48 > 1:04:51those around her were completely were prepared to privatise almost

1:04:51 > 1:04:57everything. They were unambiguous. The fairest possible reading of the

1:04:57 > 1:05:01way Thatcher went about it is she

1:05:01 > 1:05:02The fairest possible reading of the did not know how bad it would be.

1:05:02 > 1:05:04She went into privatisation with the

1:05:04 > 1:05:05did not know how bad it would be. explicit agenda of more British

1:05:05 > 1:05:07people owning shares in

1:05:07 > 1:05:10explicit agenda of more British and when she went into it, 40% of

1:05:10 > 1:05:14explicit agenda of more British people own shares, 12 years later

1:05:14 > 1:05:1612% did.We will need to leave it 12% did.We will need to leave it

1:05:16 > 1:05:18there and move on.

1:05:18 > 1:05:20The charity Oxfam has said it was "dismayed by what happened"

1:05:20 > 1:05:23after the accusations of sexual exploitation by its aid workers

1:05:23 > 1:05:25and now the government has said it's going to get tough.

1:05:25 > 1:05:29I'm going to afford them the opportunity to talk to me tomorrow,

1:05:29 > 1:05:33but I'm broke clear, it does not matter if you have got a

1:05:33 > 1:05:34but I'm broke clear, it does not whistle-blower hotline, it does not

1:05:34 > 1:05:38whistle-blower hotline, it does not matter if you have got good

1:05:38 > 1:05:38whistle-blower hotline, it does not safeguarding practices in place, if

1:05:38 > 1:05:40safeguarding practices in place, if the moral leadership at the top of

1:05:40 > 1:05:43the moral leadership at the top of the organisation is

1:05:43 > 1:05:46the moral leadership at the top of we cannot have you as a partner.

1:05:46 > 1:05:49That was Penny Mordaunt talking

1:05:49 > 1:05:52we cannot have you as a partner. whom there have been

1:05:52 > 1:05:53we cannot have you as a partner. this week. This could have

1:05:53 > 1:05:58implications for the aid sector generally?Yes, and that is

1:05:58 > 1:06:00implications for the aid sector Penny Mordaunt said that

1:06:00 > 1:06:02implications for the aid sector would be put off by the likes of

1:06:02 > 1:06:09implications for the aid sector giving to Oxfam because they

1:06:12 > 1:06:13giving to Oxfam because they have no idea where their money is being used

1:06:13 > 1:06:17idea where their money is being used your good hard earned cash could be

1:06:17 > 1:06:19subsidising Oxfam executives sexual

1:06:19 > 1:06:19your good hard earned cash could be peccadilloes, at -- abusing the

1:06:19 > 1:06:31people they are supposed to be helping is not good. Penny Mordaunt

1:06:31 > 1:06:35said we should all have done more. Where this seems to be going as who

1:06:35 > 1:06:41knew what? Furthermore, who was happy to cover up what for the

1:06:41 > 1:06:44greater good? If you shine a greater good? If you shine a

1:06:44 > 1:06:47spotlight on abuse will it kill off the Holborn I'm concept of

1:06:47 > 1:06:49the Holborn I'm concept of international aid.Oxfam does a lot

1:06:49 > 1:06:52of good around the world.

1:06:52 > 1:06:54international aid.Oxfam does a lot amounts of good. Why would you want

1:06:54 > 1:06:56international aid.Oxfam does a lot to kill off a productive good

1:06:56 > 1:06:58charity because of some horrendous

1:06:58 > 1:07:01to kill off a productive good abuse going on? The political damage

1:07:01 > 1:07:03to kill off a productive good for the government and we need to be

1:07:03 > 1:07:09very careful, there are parallels very careful, there are parallels

1:07:09 > 1:07:11with for example the northern Asian sexual grooming scandal. How

1:07:11 > 1:07:15with for example the northern Asian was a blind eye turned to these

1:07:15 > 1:07:18with for example the northern Asian politically sensitive subject

1:07:18 > 1:07:20with for example the northern Asian greater good, for

1:07:20 > 1:07:21with for example the northern Asian harmony, was not damaged? That will

1:07:21 > 1:07:29be huge thing to unpick.Tom was talking about the damage

1:07:29 > 1:07:32be huge thing to unpick.Tom was who donate to charities but defeat,

1:07:32 > 1:07:39the government, committed huge amount of

1:07:39 > 1:07:39amount of money --

1:07:39 > 1:07:41amount of money -- DFID. Not

1:07:41 > 1:07:41everyone is happy about this.

1:07:41 > 1:07:42everyone is happy about this.

1:07:42 > 1:07:43everyone is happy about this.

1:07:43 > 1:07:45this be used as a debate about

1:07:45 > 1:07:46international aid?I think it

1:07:46 > 1:07:47international aid?I think it

1:07:47 > 1:07:54being used as a way to reopen debate. It should be remembered that

1:07:54 > 1:07:57sexual predators use

1:07:57 > 1:08:00They used boarding schools, the church and aid programmes. They use

1:08:00 > 1:08:05places with high vulnerability to the sexual predators. Notably says

1:08:05 > 1:08:07places with high vulnerability to let's close down the church. It is

1:08:07 > 1:08:14mistaken to say this is a taint on the entire aid industry when

1:08:14 > 1:08:15mistaken to say this is a taint on industry by its nature would attract

1:08:15 > 1:08:18some predatory behaviour. It is much

1:08:18 > 1:08:19industry by its nature would attract more important to have the

1:08:19 > 1:08:22conversation about how

1:08:22 > 1:08:22more important to have the institutionally you prevent and deal

1:08:22 > 1:08:24with the predatory behaviour

1:08:24 > 1:08:26institutionally you prevent and deal than turn a spotlight on the aid

1:08:26 > 1:08:28industry than

1:08:28 > 1:08:30than turn a spotlight on the aid any aid which is the wrong question

1:08:30 > 1:08:35and has a completely obvious answer, yes we should.But if that

1:08:35 > 1:08:37and has a completely obvious answer, if we extend that level

1:08:37 > 1:08:43and has a completely obvious answer, understanding to Oxfam

1:08:43 > 1:08:44and has a completely obvious answer, does good work, why is that not

1:08:44 > 1:08:46extended

1:08:46 > 1:08:47does good work, why is that not Presidents club a few weeks ago

1:08:47 > 1:08:51which is

1:08:51 > 1:08:53Presidents club a few weeks ago back?Iain, the Presidents club,

1:08:53 > 1:08:55there are people

1:08:55 > 1:08:57back?Iain, the Presidents club, not using sex workers unlike the

1:08:57 > 1:08:59back?Iain, the Presidents club, Presidents club.There were people

1:08:59 > 1:09:02back?Iain, the Presidents club, at that dinner who were not engaged

1:09:02 > 1:09:05back?Iain, the Presidents club, in the activity that the FDA

1:09:05 > 1:09:06back?Iain, the Presidents club, a few people.But they

1:09:06 > 1:09:12back?Iain, the Presidents club, sitting there in an all male dinner

1:09:12 > 1:09:18-- the FT accused people.I am not defending people.We cannot finish

1:09:18 > 1:09:20the programme without returning to the programme without returning to

1:09:20 > 1:09:25the topic we are always talking about and we have always been

1:09:25 > 1:09:32talking about, Brexit.

1:09:33 > 1:09:36talking about, Brexit. We will hear from some other Cabinet ministers.

1:09:36 > 1:09:41Explain the choreography of the talks.The government have come

1:09:41 > 1:09:46under pressure for not saying enough

1:09:46 > 1:09:48talks.The government have come about the decisions. Boris Johnson

1:09:48 > 1:09:50made it clear he would make his own

1:09:50 > 1:09:52about the decisions. Boris Johnson speech on the case for a liberal

1:09:52 > 1:09:55Brexit, whatever that ends up Brexit, whatever that ends up

1:09:55 > 1:10:01meaning. Now we learn today that it will not just be Boris, it will be a

1:10:01 > 1:10:03meaning. Now we learn today that it whole is of other Cabinet ministers

1:10:03 > 1:10:06making a useful contribution

1:10:06 > 1:10:07whole is of other Cabinet ministers terms of speeches, David Davis,

1:10:07 > 1:10:11David Liddington, Liam Fox and Theresa May finally at the end of

1:10:11 > 1:10:13Theresa May finally at the end of this long list.Not Philip Hammond

1:10:13 > 1:10:20or any of the arch Remainers?They don't do Brexit central jobs. You

1:10:20 > 1:10:22expect the Brexit ministers expect the Brexit ministers

1:10:22 > 1:10:27themselves to do that.I do not agree with that at all.What is

1:10:27 > 1:10:29interesting is, were they

1:10:29 > 1:10:32agree with that at all.What is going to do this or has the entirety

1:10:32 > 1:10:38of government, now the dog is being whacked by the tail, just to make

1:10:38 > 1:10:43of government, now the dog is being Boris Johnson... They have to give

1:10:43 > 1:10:46him great cover by surrounding him him great cover by surrounding him

1:10:46 > 1:10:51by others also making speeches.What a shocking waste of parliamentary

1:10:51 > 1:10:56by others also making speeches.What time this is?At least we are

1:10:56 > 1:10:57by others also making speeches.What hearing from someone.The pattern

1:10:57 > 1:11:01with speech-making is somebody comes out and says something and then

1:11:01 > 1:11:04Number Ten immediately slapped

1:11:04 > 1:11:04out and says something and then down. You cannot listen to the thing

1:11:04 > 1:11:07you think

1:11:07 > 1:11:08down. You cannot listen to the thing because you have no idea whether it

1:11:08 > 1:11:12will be contradicted the day

1:11:12 > 1:11:13because you have no idea whether it Like Philip Hammond in Davos where

1:11:13 > 1:11:15he said we would only diverged

1:11:15 > 1:11:17Like Philip Hammond in Davos where moderately from the EU and then

1:11:17 > 1:11:19Number Ten contradicted him.And the Number Ten contradicted him.And the

1:11:19 > 1:11:25idea that Philip Hammond is not a key Brexit Minister, the impact of

1:11:25 > 1:11:26this is

1:11:26 > 1:11:27key Brexit Minister, the impact of he is the Chancellor of the

1:11:27 > 1:11:32Exchequer. Of course he is a Brexit Minister.They are quite worried

1:11:32 > 1:11:36about the Remainers and they are really worried about Jacob Rees-Mogg

1:11:36 > 1:11:37about the Remainers and they are and the hard Brexit faction who

1:11:37 > 1:11:39and the hard Brexit faction who could really bring down the Prime

1:11:39 > 1:11:44Minister tomorrow if they wanted to. And at some point, when the Prime

1:11:44 > 1:11:47And at some point, when the Prime Minister fleshes out in a

1:11:47 > 1:11:48And at some point, when the Prime more detail her vision, she cannot

1:11:48 > 1:11:54keep Anna Soubry and Jacob Rees-Mogg

1:11:54 > 1:11:55more detail her vision, she cannot happy. Both of them have been vocal

1:11:55 > 1:11:56happy. Both of them have been vocal this week and then the serious

1:11:56 > 1:11:59happy. Both of them have been vocal problem in the Tory party?Someone

1:11:59 > 1:12:02will have to compromise at some

1:12:02 > 1:12:03problem in the Tory party?Someone point. The hardest Brexiteers have

1:12:03 > 1:12:05to get real and they have to realise

1:12:05 > 1:12:07point. The hardest Brexiteers have they have most of what they wanted.

1:12:07 > 1:12:12If you said almost two years ago that the UK would

1:12:12 > 1:12:13If you said almost two years ago leaving all the key institutions of

1:12:13 > 1:12:17the EU, definitely be leaving the single market, definitely be

1:12:17 > 1:12:19the EU, definitely be leaving the the customs union with a grey area

1:12:19 > 1:12:20the EU, definitely be leaving the at around the customs agreement,

1:12:20 > 1:12:24at around the customs agreement, that is something that I think a lot

1:12:24 > 1:12:30of pro-Brexit people have accepted and pocketed as a good result.But

1:12:30 > 1:12:34the Jacob Rees-Mogg faction of the party sound very unhappy about the

1:12:34 > 1:12:37direction of travel and

1:12:37 > 1:12:38party sound very unhappy about the complaining about all sorts of

1:12:38 > 1:12:42things?But what is difficult to work out is how much of that is

1:12:42 > 1:12:46people positioning to shift the

1:12:46 > 1:12:48work out is how much of that is argument within Cabinet, outliers

1:12:48 > 1:12:51argument within Cabinet, outliers for an argument, so there is not too

1:12:51 > 1:12:56much of a compromise. It is really all a function of there not

1:12:56 > 1:12:58much of a compromise. It is really leadership and they're not being

1:12:58 > 1:13:06someone in charge of the process. This is going to have to be, we have

1:13:06 > 1:13:08to confront this as a

1:13:08 > 1:13:10This is going to have to be, we have some point and make a

1:13:10 > 1:13:12This is going to have to be, we have get on with it one way or another.

1:13:12 > 1:13:15Well when they do, I

1:13:15 > 1:13:18get on with it one way or another. will be here to talk about it.

1:13:18 > 1:13:19That's all for today.

1:13:19 > 1:13:21Parliament's now on recess so I'm afraid there's no

1:13:21 > 1:13:24Daily or Sunday Politics next week, however, do join me again a week

1:13:24 > 1:13:26on Sunday at 11 here on BBC One.

1:13:26 > 1:13:30Until then, bye-bye.