0:00:32 > 0:00:33Morning, everyone.
0:00:33 > 0:00:36I'm Sarah Smith and this is the Sunday Politics.
0:00:36 > 0:00:39I'll be bringing you up to speed on all the political
0:00:39 > 0:00:41comings and goings in Westminster and beyond.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44Coming up in today's programme.
0:00:44 > 0:00:47As the investigation into the nerve agent attack in Salisbury continues,
0:00:47 > 0:00:49we'll be taking to the former Home Secretary Jack Straw
0:00:49 > 0:00:53and former Security Minister, Pauline Neville Jones.
0:00:53 > 0:00:58Is there room for more spending? week, the Chancellor Philip Hammond
0:00:58 > 0:01:00has hinted austerity could be over as he said there was "light
0:01:00 > 0:01:07at the end of the tunnel".
0:01:09 > 0:01:11We join the Universities minister Sam Gyimah on what's jokingly been
0:01:11 > 0:01:13called a "punishment tour" of the country -
0:01:13 > 0:01:19trying to attract students to the Conservative Party.
0:01:31 > 0:01:32And coming up here...
0:01:32 > 0:01:35Sammy Wilson is live in the studio as reaction
0:01:35 > 0:01:36continues to the NIO budget.
0:01:36 > 0:01:39Plus, the chair of the Policing Board on why she can't
0:01:39 > 0:01:49properly supervise the PSNI.
0:01:50 > 0:01:51All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54And as usual we've got three Westminster insiders who will take
0:01:54 > 0:01:57us behind the headlines and tell us what's really going on.
0:01:57 > 0:02:00Today I'm joined by Tom Newton Dunn, Dia Chakravarty and George Eaton.
0:02:00 > 0:02:03The unfolding events over the past week in the cathedral city
0:02:03 > 0:02:06of Salisbury could have been taken straight from the pages
0:02:06 > 0:02:07of a spy thriller.
0:02:07 > 0:02:10The poisoning of a Russian former double agent who had passed secrets
0:02:10 > 0:02:13to Britain and moved to Salisbury after a 2010 spy swap, involved
0:02:13 > 0:02:16the use of a sinister nerve agent.
0:02:16 > 0:02:19It has shocked the country with the finger of suspicion
0:02:19 > 0:02:26pointing firmly at Moscow.
0:02:26 > 0:02:30The big story of the week started in Salisbury after a former
0:02:30 > 0:02:32Russian double agent, Sergei Skripal, and his daughter
0:02:32 > 0:02:35Yulia and the policeman who went to their aid all mysteriously fell
0:02:35 > 0:02:43ill because an as yet unidentified nerve agent.
0:02:44 > 0:02:4812 years ago, Alexander Litvinenko was killed by polonium 210.
0:02:48 > 0:02:52Was this more Russian foul play?
0:02:52 > 0:02:55Boris Johnson was quick to retaliate, saying there could be
0:02:55 > 0:02:58implications for this summer's World Cup in Russia.
0:02:58 > 0:03:03I think it will be very difficult to imagine that UK representation
0:03:03 > 0:03:06in that event could go ahead in the normal way.
0:03:06 > 0:03:08Did he mean the England team?
0:03:08 > 0:03:10The Prime Minister explained.
0:03:10 > 0:03:12The point the Foreign Secretary was making yesterday was that,
0:03:12 > 0:03:14depending on what comes out in relation to the investigation
0:03:14 > 0:03:18into the attack on the two individuals that took place
0:03:18 > 0:03:22in Salisbury, that it might be appropriate for the government
0:03:22 > 0:03:25to look at whether ministers and other dignitaries should attend
0:03:25 > 0:03:28the World Cup in Russia.
0:03:28 > 0:03:31Russian state TV mocked the Foreign Secretary for his comments,
0:03:31 > 0:03:35but the government's firm language persisted.
0:03:35 > 0:03:41The use of a nerve agent on UK soil is a brazen and reckless act.
0:03:41 > 0:03:49This was attempted murder in the most cruel and public way.
0:03:49 > 0:03:51We still can't get through a week without mentioning the B word
0:03:51 > 0:03:54as the Chancellor delivered the latest big Brexit speech.
0:03:54 > 0:03:57He's determined to get a good deal for the city.
0:03:57 > 0:04:01We still can't get through a week without mentioning the B word
0:04:01 > 0:04:04So I'm clear not only that it is possible to include
0:04:04 > 0:04:07financial services within a trade deal, but that it is very much
0:04:07 > 0:04:09in our mutual interest to do so.
0:04:09 > 0:04:11Perhaps unsurprisingly the EU disagreed.
0:04:11 > 0:04:13Also when it comes to financial services, life will be
0:04:13 > 0:04:18different after Brexit.
0:04:18 > 0:04:21The EU had other things to worry about, though, as Donald Trump put
0:04:21 > 0:04:24forward his highly controversial plan to make American steel
0:04:24 > 0:04:27and aluminium great again.
0:04:27 > 0:04:30Surrounded by metal workers, the President signed proclamations
0:04:30 > 0:04:35to impose a 25% tariff on steel and a 10% tariff on aluminium
0:04:35 > 0:04:38imports into the US.
0:04:38 > 0:04:42The European Union has not treated us well and it's been a very,
0:04:42 > 0:04:46very unfair trade situation.
0:04:46 > 0:04:48Claims of Parliamentary bullying and sexual harassment hit
0:04:48 > 0:04:51the headlines with some of the allegations going
0:04:51 > 0:04:53all the way to the top.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56Back in 2010, a woman called Kate Emms took up the position
0:04:56 > 0:04:59as John Bercow's private secretary.
0:04:59 > 0:05:03But she stood down from that post after less than a year.
0:05:03 > 0:05:06Her colleagues told Newsnight that this is because Mr Bercow's
0:05:06 > 0:05:10bullying left her unable to continue in that job.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13Theresa May enthusiastically welcomed Saudi royalty
0:05:13 > 0:05:15to Downing Street this week.
0:05:15 > 0:05:20Mohammed bin Salman was even treated to lunch at the Palace.
0:05:20 > 0:05:27Billboards sprung up extolling in the crown prince's virtues.
0:05:27 > 0:05:30Supporters of the man they call Mr Everything say
0:05:30 > 0:05:31he is a great reformer.
0:05:31 > 0:05:33But protests surrounding UK arms sales were also highly visible
0:05:33 > 0:05:35and with Saudi's intervention in Yemen ongoing, the visit
0:05:35 > 0:05:37angered Jeremy Corbyn.
0:05:37 > 0:05:41British arms sales have sharply increased and British military
0:05:41 > 0:05:43advisers are directing the war.
0:05:43 > 0:05:47It cannot be right that her government...
0:05:47 > 0:05:52Mr Speaker, it cannot be right that her government is colluding
0:05:52 > 0:05:57in what the United Nations says is evidence of war crimes.
0:05:57 > 0:06:00Clearly riled, Theresa May got her own back, calling
0:06:00 > 0:06:04Jeremy Corbyn out on the eve of International Women's Day.
0:06:04 > 0:06:06Can I thank the Right Honourable Gentleman
0:06:06 > 0:06:10for telling me that it is International Women's Day tomorrow.
0:06:10 > 0:06:12LAUGHTER.
0:06:12 > 0:06:20I think that's what's called "mansplaining".
0:06:20 > 0:06:28Tom, Dia and George were watching that with me.
0:06:31 > 0:06:33Now some insight and analysis into what's going on behind the
0:06:33 > 0:06:37headlines. The big story of the week is obviously the poisoning of Sergei
0:06:37 > 0:06:40Skripal and whether or not Russia was involved. A lot of people have
0:06:40 > 0:06:45been quick to assume that President Putin sanctioned this and it's a
0:06:45 > 0:06:49Russian state operation but can we be sure of that?Reasonably sure,
0:06:49 > 0:06:52yes, clearly there is no physical proof to produce at the moment. I
0:06:52 > 0:06:57think by the end of last week the government were in no doubt that
0:06:57 > 0:07:02this was ordered by the Russian state and in particular Vladimir
0:07:02 > 0:07:06Putin, who, under Russian state rules, has to sign of all foreign
0:07:06 > 0:07:10assassinations personally since rule change in 2006. The reason I think
0:07:10 > 0:07:14they are almost certain about this is quite frankly no one else has a
0:07:14 > 0:07:19motive to do that. Who would want to do a better job in spite of analogy
0:07:19 > 0:07:26on an old colonel living quietly in Salisbury? Not the people have the
0:07:26 > 0:07:30modes of delivery to do this, to pass a nerve agent, chemical
0:07:30 > 0:07:35weapons, on Britain's streets. Thirdly, this will be the killer,
0:07:35 > 0:07:40the scientific proof it was an extremely rare nerve agent, used,
0:07:40 > 0:07:46not one of the more widely available once you see in things like Syria,
0:07:46 > 0:07:49it's a rare particular type which has only been known to be produced
0:07:49 > 0:07:56in one or two laboratories in the world, one of them is in Moscow. The
0:07:56 > 0:07:59Moscow foreign spy service. What is fascinating is not just was Vladimir
0:07:59 > 0:08:04Putin responsible? It is why he wanted us to know he was
0:08:04 > 0:08:08responsible, because he left such a massive calling card, and that has
0:08:08 > 0:08:15been really bothering cabinet ministers in the last week.Dia, we
0:08:15 > 0:08:18had from the Chief Medical Officer who said traces of this nerve agent
0:08:18 > 0:08:23has been found in the restaurant where Sergei Skripal and his
0:08:23 > 0:08:26daughter were eating and 500 people were there at the same time and they
0:08:26 > 0:08:29should wash their clothes and clean their possessions that were with
0:08:29 > 0:08:34them. There is a small rescue but there is a risk. Frightening news
0:08:34 > 0:08:37like that is what drives home to people why it matters this is
0:08:37 > 0:08:41happening in the UK.Absolutely and there are so many questions about
0:08:41 > 0:08:44this, even before we do want to who was doing this. That's very
0:08:44 > 0:08:49important. This also questions about how the whole thing has been
0:08:49 > 0:08:53handled, seven days, and they are now telling these terrified
0:08:53 > 0:08:58residents to wash their clothes and possessions. Is that going to be
0:08:58 > 0:09:04enough? What exactly is this agent? If we see people in scary laboratory
0:09:04 > 0:09:09suits walking around, doing what they need to do, a quarantine going
0:09:09 > 0:09:15on, is it enough to say go and wash your clothes seven days later? The
0:09:15 > 0:09:18communication around it, I understand it is sensitive, that I
0:09:18 > 0:09:24think it has been dire. Really quite woeful. If I was living in Salisbury
0:09:24 > 0:09:30I would be very, very worried. George, the UK Government, once the
0:09:30 > 0:09:34investigation has finished and they decide whether this was a
0:09:34 > 0:09:37state-sponsored assassination, they need to decide how to respond. All
0:09:37 > 0:09:41we have practically heard of so far is some rubber mats might not go to
0:09:41 > 0:09:46the World Cup in Russia, presumably will have to do come up with
0:09:46 > 0:09:49something better than that -- diplomats. What can we do that
0:09:49 > 0:09:54Russia will care about?The pressure from some Labour Party and
0:09:54 > 0:10:00Conservative MPs is to introduce a version of the Magnitsky Act, which
0:10:00 > 0:10:05means it's easier to freeze the assets of Russians suspected of
0:10:05 > 0:10:08human rights abuses or corruption, and expel them, but Britain is
0:10:08 > 0:10:12severely limited and I think it's worth asking the question why did
0:10:12 > 0:10:18Russia choose this moment to target Britain? We are set to leave the
0:10:18 > 0:10:20European Union, huge burdens on governments, stretching the
0:10:20 > 0:10:26government bandwidth to its limits, and Donald Trump and the USA who we
0:10:26 > 0:10:29supposedly have a special relationship with, is imposing
0:10:29 > 0:10:32tariffs on steel and has not made any robust intervention over this,
0:10:32 > 0:10:37despite the fact he normally rushes to tweet when there is a terrorist
0:10:37 > 0:10:42attack on British soil after making unhelpful remarks. He has not been
0:10:42 > 0:10:45standing shoulder to shoulder with Britain in this instance.There has
0:10:45 > 0:10:50been a suggestion this should come up at the next Nato summit in
0:10:50 > 0:10:55Brussels, and they could be looking for some kind of coordinated
0:10:55 > 0:11:00response from international allies. Is that likely?It's difficult to
0:11:00 > 0:11:05see at the moment. Russia's strength here is significant and Vladimir
0:11:05 > 0:11:08Putin, such a brazen act, clearly he does not feel Britain has the
0:11:08 > 0:11:14capacity to respond. Last December, when we were short of gas, the one
0:11:14 > 0:11:19country we turn to was Russia.We will be back to talk about the other
0:11:19 > 0:11:21stories during the programme.
0:11:21 > 0:11:23The poisoning of Sergei Skripal and his daughter carries
0:11:23 > 0:11:25echoes of the murder of Alexander Litvinenko,
0:11:25 > 0:11:27the ex KGB officer who died after drinking tea laced
0:11:27 > 0:11:31with radioactive polonium 210 in a London hotel in 2006.
0:11:31 > 0:11:34And this morning, his widow, Marina Litvinenko urged Theresa May
0:11:34 > 0:11:40to adopt American-style laws that are tougher on Russia.
0:11:40 > 0:11:46You need to be very selective who you are friends with. And when you
0:11:46 > 0:11:50allow people with money to come to your country and make a business,
0:11:50 > 0:11:54you need to be sure what kind of money these people try to bring to
0:11:54 > 0:11:58your country because very often this money is stolen from Russian people
0:11:58 > 0:12:09and sometimes it is a very serious crime behind it. I'm
0:12:09 > 0:12:14crime behind it. I'm absolutely asking this question to unite this
0:12:14 > 0:12:18action already done in the United States, in Europe. I think the UK
0:12:18 > 0:12:20has to do the same steps.
0:12:20 > 0:12:22Joining me now from Edinburgh is the former Home and Foreign
0:12:22 > 0:12:24Secretary, Jack Straw.
0:12:24 > 0:12:31Thank you very much for joining us this morning. Do you agree that the
0:12:31 > 0:12:35UK needs to introduce tougher laws, the likes of which the US has?I do
0:12:35 > 0:12:41think we should do this now. I think have to take this very careful
0:12:41 > 0:12:47step-by-step way, so I think the approach of Amber Rudd and her
0:12:47 > 0:12:51security minister, Ben Wallace, is the right one. Jumping to
0:12:51 > 0:12:54conclusions in this situation is not a sensible way to proceed. The other
0:12:54 > 0:12:58thing we have to think about very carefully, when it comes to those
0:12:58 > 0:13:01who are saying something must be done and if you are in government,
0:13:01 > 0:13:05you get this all the time, in situations like this, something has
0:13:05 > 0:13:09got to be done, is what happens when you have to get back to normality? I
0:13:09 > 0:13:16often reflect on the sanctions were imposed to Zimbabwe for the
0:13:16 > 0:13:24different situation but there are parallels. In retrospect, Robert
0:13:24 > 0:13:30Mugabe was a very bad man, but in retrospect I often wonder if it was
0:13:30 > 0:13:36a sensible thing to do. In the end we had to get the troops down again.
0:13:36 > 0:13:40It was very tricky so people need to think very carefully indeed. This is
0:13:40 > 0:13:43on the assumption the Russian state was behind this, which has not yet
0:13:43 > 0:13:50been approved or announced.If we do establish that and work on the
0:13:50 > 0:13:55presumption for now and I understand your reservations, would President
0:13:55 > 0:14:00Putin care if we were to try and institute some kind of sanctions or
0:14:00 > 0:14:04punishments or does it just increase the siege mentality Russia is under
0:14:04 > 0:14:07threat from the rest of the world which in many ways bolstered his
0:14:07 > 0:14:13position in advance of the elections coming up soon?If we were to do it
0:14:13 > 0:14:17unilaterally, just the UK, he wouldn't careful stop with the EU,
0:14:17 > 0:14:23and more other major allies including the USA, he might take
0:14:23 > 0:14:28notice but frankly, I think he regarded as a medal if we were
0:14:28 > 0:14:33simply to do it by ourselves and he knows that, post the collapse of the
0:14:33 > 0:14:37Berlin Wall and the Soviet Union in the early 1990s, there is a huge
0:14:37 > 0:14:43amount of Russian money in the UK, particularly in London, and a
0:14:43 > 0:14:47Magnitsky Act won't make that much difference to the level of
0:14:47 > 0:14:50dependence of some very highly respectable British London based
0:14:50 > 0:14:58financial institutions with Russian money.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02With the Alexander Litvinenko case, an enquiry two tiers to get to the
0:15:02 > 0:15:08bottom of what happened there, and could only conclude that it was
0:15:08 > 0:15:12probably orchestrated by the Russian state. Can you take any sort of
0:15:12 > 0:15:17action on the basis of something probably being true?People need to
0:15:17 > 0:15:24bear in mind the example of Iraq. The evidence against Saddam Hussein
0:15:24 > 0:15:28having and continuing to have biological weapons was overwhelming.
0:15:28 > 0:15:34The question came up in United Nations Security Council
0:15:34 > 0:15:39resolutions, passed unanimously. That is what Tony Blair and I used
0:15:39 > 0:15:42almost 15 years ago to persuade people to go to war against Iraq,
0:15:42 > 0:15:47and it turned out to be completely incorrect, so you've got to be
0:15:47 > 0:15:51really careful. I have the scars literally on my back in respect of
0:15:51 > 0:15:56this. In the heat of the moment, with people in the House of Commons
0:15:56 > 0:16:00and the newspapers screeching, something 's got to be done, being
0:16:00 > 0:16:08non-explicit about what... Moreover, we shouldn't descend to the level of
0:16:08 > 0:16:12the criminal justice system in the Russian Federation or other states
0:16:12 > 0:16:20like that. There are demands today from some Conservatives to ban the
0:16:20 > 0:16:28Russia Today programme.The Shadow Chancellor said today that he
0:16:28 > 0:16:31doesn't think Labour MPs will be appearing on there in the future.
0:16:31 > 0:16:35Will you do the same?I have not appeared on there for some time, but
0:16:35 > 0:16:40I will make a decision on my own terms. We have to be careful about
0:16:40 > 0:16:47doing that in the absence of evidence. Far better for Britain's
0:16:47 > 0:16:52position in the world to have high standards of probity. It's better to
0:16:52 > 0:16:58bear in mind that well intentioned people who do not lie at all,
0:16:58 > 0:17:01including myself, and the House of Commons by a huge majority, and
0:17:01 > 0:17:06public opinion at the time, came to the wrong decision with respect to
0:17:06 > 0:17:11whether or not Saddam Hussein still had biological weapons on the basis
0:17:11 > 0:17:15of probabilities. That is the difficulty here. People will of
0:17:15 > 0:17:20course be very impatient indeed to have a culprit here, and obviously
0:17:20 > 0:17:24stacking it up on the basis of circumstantial evidence, you can
0:17:24 > 0:17:29make a very good case that it is the Russian state, but we need a bit of
0:17:29 > 0:17:34sobriety before we come to that conclusion. Thank God that Amber
0:17:34 > 0:17:38Rudd is the Home Secretary at the moment. Someone else I could think
0:17:38 > 0:17:44of in the British Cabinet, and she is taking a very measured approach
0:17:44 > 0:17:47to this.
0:17:47 > 0:17:50Here with me now is Pauline Neville Jones, who was Security
0:17:50 > 0:17:52and Counter Terrorism Minister under David Cameron, when Theresa May
0:17:52 > 0:17:54was Home Secretary.
0:17:54 > 0:17:58That was fascinating, listening to Jack Straw drawing parallels with
0:17:58 > 0:18:02Iraq and what was supposedly the evidence of chemical and biological
0:18:02 > 0:18:06weapons there, saying we have to be very careful about pointing the
0:18:06 > 0:18:11finger of blame. With your security experience, will we ever be able to
0:18:11 > 0:18:14establish whether this was sanctioned by the Russians?I doubt
0:18:14 > 0:18:19the Russian state will admit it was involved. In order to get absolute
0:18:19 > 0:18:25proof, what we needed with Litvinenko was to have a trial.
0:18:25 > 0:18:30There hasn't been a trial because the Russians wouldn't cooperate. I
0:18:30 > 0:18:33think it's right for the government to be cautious about saying anything
0:18:33 > 0:18:38now, because it mustn't be seen to lead the investigation and therefore
0:18:38 > 0:18:42damage it, but once we have established a degree of probability
0:18:42 > 0:18:48about the cause, that is the time for action. I think the chances of
0:18:48 > 0:18:51it not being connected with Russia in some way are very low.The means
0:18:51 > 0:18:57would point to that, but what is the motive? This is a retired agent
0:18:57 > 0:19:03who's been living here for years. Came as part of the spy as well. The
0:19:03 > 0:19:09unwritten rule of espionage is that you don't touch spies. What dangers
0:19:09 > 0:19:17does he pose to the Russian regime? I think we simply don't know the
0:19:17 > 0:19:21full story. There's plenty of evidence that the Russian regime is
0:19:21 > 0:19:26pretty vicious. Even if he was part of a swap, I don't think you can
0:19:26 > 0:19:30exclude the fact that the Russian state might decide to take action
0:19:30 > 0:19:36against him.Looking at pictures of him and his daughter there. It's
0:19:36 > 0:19:41difficult to see what threat they posed to the Russian state. Is it
0:19:41 > 0:19:44not worth considering the possibility that they may have been
0:19:44 > 0:19:53involved in something else that isn't technically state faction --
0:19:53 > 0:19:57state sanctioned?If possible. It is possible that the Mafia was
0:19:57 > 0:20:01involved. The question is, what lay behind the Mafia and where did the
0:20:01 > 0:20:07nerve agent come from? Is it possible to come from elsewhere than
0:20:07 > 0:20:14a state laboratory? It's difficult to imagine that the threat isn't
0:20:14 > 0:20:20going to go back to Russia somehow. Is it possible to take action
0:20:20 > 0:20:24against wealthy Russian oligarchs living in London, even if we change
0:20:24 > 0:20:31the laws and bring in something like the Magnitsky act? Mrs Litvinenko
0:20:31 > 0:20:35got a letter from Theresa May, Home Secretary at the time, saying that
0:20:35 > 0:20:39we want to make sure nothing like this happens again in the UK, and
0:20:39 > 0:20:44now it has.There are already powers which the government can use. One of
0:20:44 > 0:20:47the reasons why there was an argument in the Commons the other
0:20:47 > 0:20:53day about this so-called Magnitsky amendment was that the government
0:20:53 > 0:20:59said, we've got the powers. You may say, we need to use these powers,
0:20:59 > 0:21:04for example to investigate people who have unexplained wealth. There
0:21:04 > 0:21:09are things we can do.These are people who are not necessarily
0:21:09 > 0:21:15linked to Putin and the regime, so these are two distinct things.They
0:21:15 > 0:21:20are. You have to be careful how you do this, and it requires resources.
0:21:20 > 0:21:24This is a complicated job. Jack Straw put his finger on it when he
0:21:24 > 0:21:29said, we need to act in concert with allies. This is the thing that the
0:21:29 > 0:21:34Russians really are going to take notice of. At the moment, it's fair
0:21:34 > 0:21:40to say that although we are Aljaz overtime, we have gradually
0:21:40 > 0:21:45increased the pressure. With sanctions, and Nato have increased
0:21:45 > 0:21:49measures on its borders, but we still have a great deal of
0:21:49 > 0:21:53harassment from the Russians. They are taking action in people's
0:21:53 > 0:21:59politics. They are conducting cyber attacks. We need to act as an
0:21:59 > 0:22:05alliance so that the Russians really do believe, and they seek positive
0:22:05 > 0:22:10evidence of it, that action against one is an action against all, and
0:22:10 > 0:22:14collective action follows. We need to have a strategy that brings
0:22:14 > 0:22:20together what we do militarily, what we do to protect our citizens in the
0:22:20 > 0:22:24cyber sphere, what we do in broadcasting, so we have an all
0:22:24 > 0:22:31encompassing way of dealing with Russia.Thank you very much for
0:22:31 > 0:22:34coming to talk to us.
0:22:34 > 0:22:36The new Universities Minister, Sam Gyimah, has set himself
0:22:36 > 0:22:37a rather ambitious task.
0:22:37 > 0:22:39Travelling up and down the country, he's trying to attract students
0:22:39 > 0:22:40to the Conservative Party.
0:22:40 > 0:22:44With just one in five voters aged between 18 and 24 voting Tory
0:22:44 > 0:22:45in the 2017 election, it's been jokingly called
0:22:45 > 0:22:47his "punishment tour".
0:22:47 > 0:22:49Our reporter Elizabeth Glinka joined Sam on his visit
0:22:49 > 0:22:50to Canterbury Christ Church University.
0:22:50 > 0:22:58And just to warn you, her report contains flashing images.
0:23:09 > 0:23:11Was that a youth quake?
0:23:11 > 0:23:13Reports of a massive increase in young voters at
0:23:13 > 0:23:16the last general election may have been exaggerated.
0:23:16 > 0:23:19# I got the big size 12s on my feet...
0:23:19 > 0:23:22Nationally, the turnout didn't really change, but of
0:23:22 > 0:23:28the young people that did vote, a whopping 67% went for Labour.
0:23:28 > 0:23:30And in a place like Canterbury, where there
0:23:30 > 0:23:33are more than 30,000 students, it's thought that their votes played
0:23:33 > 0:23:38a big part in the city electing its first ever Labour MP.
0:23:38 > 0:23:40Canterbury.
0:23:40 > 0:23:43This has been Conservative since World War I.
0:23:43 > 0:23:49An extraordinary surge in their share, up 20% here.
0:23:49 > 0:23:51In general, everyone just always seems to think
0:23:51 > 0:23:53that the Conservatives are always doing something wrong,
0:23:53 > 0:23:55so even if you don't know about the Conservatives,
0:23:55 > 0:23:57all you hear, you just think negative things about it.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00Most of my friends always slander the Conservative name, saying,
0:24:00 > 0:24:03"It's only for middle-aged men who want the benefit from themselves."
0:24:03 > 0:24:05Do you think you have to be quite brave to
0:24:05 > 0:24:07say, "I am a Conservative?"
0:24:07 > 0:24:08Yeah.
0:24:08 > 0:24:10At first, I was like, OK, I'm not going
0:24:10 > 0:24:13to say anything to my friends, because they will just kick off.
0:24:13 > 0:24:15One of my flatmates was like, "If you are not a Labour
0:24:15 > 0:24:17voter, don't talk to me."
0:24:17 > 0:24:18Labour had a lot of backing.
0:24:18 > 0:24:20They had people like AJ Tracey jumping on.
0:24:20 > 0:24:22So once they see that, everyone kind of runs
0:24:22 > 0:24:24to it, like, let's vote Labour.
0:24:24 > 0:24:25# Tracksuit grey, black, blue
0:24:25 > 0:24:27# I was just a hope-filled kid like you...
0:24:27 > 0:24:30AJ Tracey is just one of any number of current music acts who publicly
0:24:30 > 0:24:33endorsed the Labour Party at the last general election,
0:24:33 > 0:24:36helping to build a brand which was apparently three times
0:24:36 > 0:24:40more attractive to young voters.
0:24:40 > 0:24:43To be fair, it's not as if there was some sort of golden
0:24:43 > 0:24:46era of Conservative hipsters, but the figures suggest
0:24:46 > 0:24:50things are getting worse.
0:24:50 > 0:24:53And that's why the new Universities Minister, Sam Gyimah,
0:24:53 > 0:24:56is currently on a nationwide tour, including here in Canterbury,
0:24:56 > 0:24:59where he is attempting to at least start a conversation
0:24:59 > 0:25:02with a generation of voters who see his party as old, male and stale.
0:25:02 > 0:25:06Minister, this seems a good time to jump in.
0:25:06 > 0:25:11This is an incredibly difficult job, isn't it, convincing young people
0:25:11 > 0:25:13to vote Conservative?
0:25:13 > 0:25:18We do have our work cut out for us, but I think the first thing to do
0:25:18 > 0:25:19is actually to be on campus.
0:25:19 > 0:25:23If we allow Jeremy Corbyn to be the only one on campus, then we only
0:25:23 > 0:25:25have ourselves to blame.
0:25:25 > 0:25:28Many students will say to you, well, it's fine, you're having
0:25:28 > 0:25:30a review on student fees and many other things.
0:25:30 > 0:25:33The Labour Party's promising us they're going to get rid of fees.
0:25:33 > 0:25:35We know what happens when you promised something for free.
0:25:35 > 0:25:38Numbers are going to be capped, which means fewer people
0:25:38 > 0:25:40going to university.
0:25:40 > 0:25:43It's the well off that are going to do it.
0:25:43 > 0:25:44That's not what we're about.
0:25:44 > 0:25:46I'm not really worried about Jeremy Corbyn's free
0:25:46 > 0:25:49for all offer, because it's not realistic, and he can't deliver it,
0:25:49 > 0:25:52and we only need to look at countries like Scotland to see
0:25:52 > 0:25:53that it's not going to work.
0:25:53 > 0:25:56And what reaction are you expecting when you head in there?
0:25:56 > 0:25:58Well, I thought it might be rowdy like PMQs.
0:25:58 > 0:25:59I've no idea.
0:25:59 > 0:26:01I haven't had the mob treatment anywhere yet so far.
0:26:01 > 0:26:03# Your face ain't big for my boot
0:26:03 > 0:26:04# Kick up the yout
0:26:04 > 0:26:08# I know that I kick up the yout...
0:26:08 > 0:26:10There might not have been a youth quake nationally,
0:26:10 > 0:26:14but there was a bit of a youth quake in Canterbury, and I want to listen
0:26:14 > 0:26:16and I want to understand.
0:26:16 > 0:26:17You know, we've had enough of austerity politics.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20We've had enough of student fees, things like that, and we've seen
0:26:20 > 0:26:24the NHS get less and less funded over time.
0:26:24 > 0:26:26And it's hard to ignore those things.
0:26:26 > 0:26:28You know, we are going to take action against you.
0:26:28 > 0:26:31# Bros in my ear saying "Stormz, don't do it"
0:26:31 > 0:26:33# Devil on my shoulder I don't lack
0:26:33 > 0:26:35# Hit 'em with a crowbar, I don't scrap...
0:26:35 > 0:26:37Well, lots of discussion, some of it a bit feisty,
0:26:37 > 0:26:39but did the Minister win any hearts and minds?
0:26:39 > 0:26:42He's really good at talking to students, and he's
0:26:42 > 0:26:43here to talk to everyone.
0:26:43 > 0:26:45Would it make you feel differently about voting Conservative?
0:26:45 > 0:26:49I took from your comments that you were not a Conservative voter.
0:26:49 > 0:26:52Definitely not, but I did think he made some good points,
0:26:52 > 0:26:53and he was very measured.
0:26:53 > 0:26:56It's quite clear that there are a number of people here who have
0:26:56 > 0:26:59been seduced by Jeremy Corbyn, but I think the purpose of this
0:26:59 > 0:27:02is to let them realise that there is a Conservative voice,
0:27:02 > 0:27:04there is a Conservative point of view, and that as a minister
0:27:04 > 0:27:07I am here to listen.
0:27:07 > 0:27:08Clearly a smart man.
0:27:08 > 0:27:12I'm not sure it's better or worse to have a smart
0:27:12 > 0:27:14Tory or a stupid Tory, but he knew what he was
0:27:14 > 0:27:17talking about, even though I disagree with him.
0:27:17 > 0:27:19Would it make you think twice about voting Conservative?
0:27:19 > 0:27:23No, I will never vote Conservative in my life.
0:27:23 > 0:27:29So as the sun sets in Canterbury, there's still a long way to go.
0:27:29 > 0:27:37And Universities Minister Sam Gymiah joins me now.
0:27:37 > 0:27:43A smart Tory. That is a compliment from one of the students! Do you
0:27:43 > 0:27:48think you persuaded many of them to vote Tory?The point of the exercise
0:27:48 > 0:27:53was not to persuade people to vote Conservative. As Universities
0:27:53 > 0:27:56Minister, I'm very conscious that students are investing a
0:27:56 > 0:28:02considerable amount of money in their education, so they should have
0:28:02 > 0:28:05a voice in the corridors of power. Gone are the days that the
0:28:05 > 0:28:10Universities Minister 's spends time with the chancellors and not the
0:28:10 > 0:28:15students. Jeremy Corbyn has a voice on the campus, and if we allow that
0:28:15 > 0:28:19to continue, we only have ourselves to blame. The starting point in the
0:28:19 > 0:28:23process is listening and engaging, rather than going in there to preach
0:28:23 > 0:28:28to them about what their problems and answers are.You have a mountain
0:28:28 > 0:28:33to climb with young people. Let's have a look at the numbers. At the
0:28:33 > 0:28:39last election, between 18 to 24-year-olds, 67% voted Labour.
0:28:39 > 0:28:46Unless you can change those minds, you have a generational problem with
0:28:46 > 0:28:49voters, and you will not see Conservative governments in the
0:28:49 > 0:28:53future, unless people change their minds.What I am doing at the moment
0:28:53 > 0:28:58is pressing, which is why the party is beginning to engage with students
0:28:58 > 0:29:01at this level. A number of things have come up as I've travelled
0:29:01 > 0:29:05around the country that we can address. Austerity keeps coming up.
0:29:05 > 0:29:11We stopped making the case for why we had to reduce the deficit from
0:29:11 > 0:29:15the extreme levels that we inherited from the Labour Party. One man said
0:29:15 > 0:29:28to me, all I have ever heard the Conservatives talk
0:29:29 > 0:29:31about is austerity. It must be your ideology. That is clearly not the
0:29:31 > 0:29:34case. It is a matter of necessity, not ideology.We have the spring
0:29:34 > 0:29:37statement coming up next week. The Chancellor has said this morning
0:29:37 > 0:29:40that we are in a much better financial position at the moment
0:29:40 > 0:29:44then we have been, but it doesn't sound like he's going to end
0:29:44 > 0:29:48austerity. Would you encourage him to do so?This brings statement is
0:29:48 > 0:29:53an update on the public finances. But he is going to point further
0:29:53 > 0:29:58ahead to the budget in the autumn, and he doesn't seem to be talking
0:29:58 > 0:30:02about the increased public spending you think will attract people to the
0:30:02 > 0:30:07Tories.We are not going to say we are going to return to discredited
0:30:07 > 0:30:11economic policies of 40 years ago. What he should be saying to young
0:30:11 > 0:30:16people is that the balanced approach that he is pursuing, in a world
0:30:16 > 0:30:20where we have technological challenge and a global market
0:30:20 > 0:30:24economy, the Conservatives are uniquely placed to deliver
0:30:24 > 0:30:29prosperity for them. Another issue that comes up is our motives. When
0:30:29 > 0:30:33we talk about economic prosperity, people feel it is for the few.
0:30:33 > 0:30:41Sometimes I have to explain that the top rate of tax has been higher
0:30:41 > 0:30:45under the Conservatives, and that the top 1% pay 20% of income tax.
0:30:45 > 0:30:51They didn't know that. We need to talk about -- we need to persuade
0:30:51 > 0:30:53them that when we talk about economic prosperity, it is their
0:30:53 > 0:30:59future we are talking about.
0:30:59 > 0:31:02You addressed tuition fees in the film but look at maintenance grants
0:31:02 > 0:31:06being cut by this government so the poorer students to go to university
0:31:06 > 0:31:09will lead with larger debt than those from better off backgrounds.
0:31:09 > 0:31:14When that is their experience right now on campus, no wonder they keep
0:31:14 > 0:31:20thinking you are looking after the better off and not the
0:31:20 > 0:31:22disadvantaged.Canterbury has the best proportion of students went
0:31:22 > 0:31:25university for the first time in their families. Many of those would
0:31:25 > 0:31:34not be at university at all had we pursue the Jeremy Corbyn policy.
0:31:35 > 0:31:39Jeremy Corbyn is promising to abolish tuition fees so that would
0:31:39 > 0:31:43make it easier for students to go to university.Once you make university
0:31:43 > 0:31:46free you can't have a current policy we have which is that the numbers
0:31:46 > 0:31:52who can go to university are capped. At a time when the numbers were not
0:31:52 > 0:31:57capped, our own history, very few people went to university and mentor
0:31:57 > 0:32:01very few poor people went university. A consequence of the
0:32:01 > 0:32:04Conservative policy is a lot of disadvantaged people are giving to
0:32:04 > 0:32:08university for the first time and we have a student finance scheme where
0:32:08 > 0:32:14you do not pay a penny as a first burner unless you in over £25,000
0:32:14 > 0:32:19and after 30 years, whatever you have managed to pay, is written. I'm
0:32:19 > 0:32:22not saying is perfect.That very system is replacing grants for
0:32:22 > 0:32:29poorer students with loans. Why? If you are so keen to get disadvantaged
0:32:29 > 0:32:33students into universities, wide takeaway maintenance grants?There
0:32:33 > 0:32:36is a review looking at the whole system, but when many students
0:32:36 > 0:32:40complain about the student finances, they focus on accommodation.
0:32:40 > 0:32:46Somewhere like London, landlords want to get the years rent in
0:32:46 > 0:32:50advance. That is a difficult situation for them and the cost of
0:32:50 > 0:32:56living issues, rather than assuming we know...There's an interest rate
0:32:56 > 0:33:01on a student loan of over 6% which is way in excess of what people are
0:33:01 > 0:33:08borrowing on mortgages etc.The cost of living in University...They must
0:33:08 > 0:33:13be worried about it.Whatever your level of earnings, you pay 9% of
0:33:13 > 0:33:17your income, which means higher rate in graduates pay more to the system
0:33:17 > 0:33:23but I also think to narrow the debate on student fees, students
0:33:23 > 0:33:27have a lot of interest, not all students think student fees is their
0:33:27 > 0:33:33big issue. Someone to see their politicians care about making the
0:33:33 > 0:33:37world a better place. What kind of world they are going into, they will
0:33:37 > 0:33:41get on the housing ladder, housing is big issue for them but the
0:33:41 > 0:33:44economy prospers, so I think that's why you have got to listen and not
0:33:44 > 0:33:49assume all students have the same view and there is one answer that
0:33:49 > 0:33:52deals with all the problems of every 18-21 -year-old.Mental health keeps
0:33:52 > 0:33:57cropping up. I'm sure the university 's lecturers strike came up as well.
0:33:57 > 0:34:02Now students are paying £9,000 in fees, they are consumers as well as
0:34:02 > 0:34:04students, so should they get a
0:34:04 > 0:34:10fees, they are consumers as well as refund for the lessons they have
0:34:10 > 0:34:11fees, they are consumers as well as been taught?Universities do not pay
0:34:11 > 0:34:14lecturers on the day they strike, they should not pocket those funds,
0:34:14 > 0:34:16they should not pocket those funds, but look at compensation for
0:34:16 > 0:34:20students and there are real ways of compensating students.Would you
0:34:20 > 0:34:26compel them to do that?I'm not in a position to compel them to do that.
0:34:26 > 0:34:28There is the
0:34:28 > 0:34:28position to compel them to do that. university who has a wide-ranging
0:34:28 > 0:34:34remit. I'm encouraged some
0:34:34 > 0:34:34university who has a wide-ranging universities are taking this
0:34:34 > 0:34:40seriously. Kings College London will offer financial compensation. I
0:34:40 > 0:34:45think they should look at this very seriously. I am disappointed I
0:34:45 > 0:34:47think they should look at this very seeing lots
0:34:47 > 0:34:48think they should look at this very from Durham University, a petition
0:34:48 > 0:34:54of 5000 students, asking for compensation. I want to university
0:34:54 > 0:34:57to respond constructively, because we are in the age of the student and
0:34:57 > 0:35:00we are in the age of the student and we are there to serve.One quick
0:35:00 > 0:35:04question, talking about Russia on the programme so far this morning, a
0:35:04 > 0:35:07story this
0:35:07 > 0:35:09the programme so far this morning, a saying over £800 million has been
0:35:09 > 0:35:10the programme so far this morning, a donated to the Tory party from
0:35:10 > 0:35:12donated to the Tory party from Russian link to donors
0:35:12 > 0:35:15donated to the Tory party from May took over, even notice that you
0:35:15 > 0:35:19wanted an arms length relationship. Is that something that should be
0:35:19 > 0:35:23discouraged in the future and should the money be returned now?To make a
0:35:23 > 0:35:25donation to a political
0:35:25 > 0:35:27the money be returned now?To make a this country you have to be
0:35:27 > 0:35:32the money be returned now?To make a citizen Dungannon
0:35:34 > 0:35:38citizen Dungannon -- and betting needs to be taken place. Modern
0:35:38 > 0:35:45Britain is made up by people from all sorts of places. Some groups of
0:35:45 > 0:35:47people cannot participate in Aber Democratic life to the fall, and we
0:35:47 > 0:35:51people cannot participate in Aber have got to be clear, these are
0:35:51 > 0:35:54British citizens from Russia. Not
0:35:54 > 0:35:54have got to be clear, these are the Kremlin donating to the
0:35:54 > 0:35:59Conservative Party.Of course not, but there could be a question of
0:35:59 > 0:36:01Conservative Party.Of course not, where those funds came from in the
0:36:01 > 0:36:04first place for the wedding
0:36:04 > 0:36:05where those funds came from in the on the front page of a Sunday
0:36:05 > 0:36:09newspaper saying this much money has been donated to the Conservative
0:36:09 > 0:36:10newspaper saying this much money has Party, maybe it would be better to
0:36:10 > 0:36:12newspaper saying this much money has think again where you receive your
0:36:12 > 0:36:16large donations from?It's not just the letter of the law but
0:36:16 > 0:36:21large donations from?It's not just should be thorough.Sam Gyimah,
0:36:21 > 0:36:24thank you very much for
0:36:24 > 0:36:25It's coming up to 11.40.
0:36:25 > 0:36:26You're watching the Sunday Politics.
0:36:26 > 0:36:28Still to come, we'll be discussing the economy.
0:36:28 > 0:36:33Is it time to end austerity?
0:36:43 > 0:36:43Will
0:36:43 > 0:36:46Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
0:36:46 > 0:36:51At last we have a budget but will it be left to civil
0:36:51 > 0:36:54servants to decide how to spend it or will the DUP be pulling
0:36:54 > 0:36:56the strings behind the scenes?
0:36:56 > 0:36:57The party's East Antrim MP
0:36:57 > 0:36:59Sammy Wilson joins us live and - caught in the political
0:36:59 > 0:37:00cross fire.
0:37:00 > 0:37:01The policing board
0:37:01 > 0:37:03with no power.
0:37:03 > 0:37:05Does that mean we no longer have a fully
0:37:05 > 0:37:08accountable police service?
0:37:08 > 0:37:10I've been speaking to the chair
0:37:10 > 0:37:13of the board who has real fears about the future of policing
0:37:13 > 0:37:20in a political vacuum.
0:37:20 > 0:37:26I do not want to see all the good in policing fall.The longer it goes
0:37:26 > 0:37:29on...
0:37:29 > 0:37:30And
0:37:30 > 0:37:31with their thoughts,
0:37:31 > 0:37:33our commentators Andree Murphy and Professor Peter Shirlow.
0:37:33 > 0:37:36All that coming up in a moment,
0:37:36 > 0:37:39but to tee it all up, in the week of a budget,
0:37:39 > 0:37:41more Brexit and even more blame over the failed negotiations,
0:37:41 > 0:37:49here's Stephen Walker.
0:37:53 > 0:37:58Sinn Fein and the DUP went to Brussels to tour Brexit with Michel
0:37:58 > 0:38:03Barnier but the fallout from the field box made the headlines.I have
0:38:03 > 0:38:12no knowledge of that. They were not doing it on behalf of me.A judge
0:38:12 > 0:38:18ruled Arlene Foster's decision to block Legacy funding was not lawful.
0:38:18 > 0:38:22A former justice minister welcomed the ruling. It should have been
0:38:22 > 0:38:30speeded up by the provision of money.
0:38:30 > 0:38:36money.Westminster set our Ajit and the DUP took credit for an extra
0:38:36 > 0:38:48£400 million. -- set our budget.Not everyone was happy. Some of us were
0:38:48 > 0:38:58naive.
0:38:58 > 0:38:59Mairtin O Muilleoir ending that
0:38:59 > 0:39:01Stephen Walker's week in 60 seconds.
0:39:01 > 0:39:07Sammy Wilson from the DUP joins us now in the studio.
0:39:07 > 0:39:12There is no doubt that we are in a better place today because of the
0:39:12 > 0:39:15deal that Julie go she did with the Conservative Party but it has to be
0:39:15 > 0:39:23said there is real pain in this budget.
0:39:23 > 0:39:31budget. -- because of the deal that you negotiated.
0:39:31 > 0:39:35you negotiated. Scotland and Wales is also trying to balance the books
0:39:35 > 0:39:39after years of unbridled spending by the Labour Party. It is important to
0:39:39 > 0:39:43get borrowing under control but we need a special case for Northern
0:39:43 > 0:39:47Ireland. We had fever pitch at that stage and we succeeded in using that
0:39:47 > 0:39:54leverage. We have got 4% more than our budget than what we would have
0:39:54 > 0:40:00had had that not been for the influence of the DUP.
0:40:00 > 0:40:04Seven Stormont departments are facing big cats, but will have big
0:40:04 > 0:40:10implications, but is difficult to defend.The last Assembly wanted
0:40:10 > 0:40:15more money spent on health and education. The public had indicated
0:40:15 > 0:40:21that those were the priorities. £110 million of the additional funding
0:40:21 > 0:40:25which we were able to obtain for the budget in Northern Ireland has gone
0:40:25 > 0:40:33to those two departments, £72 million to the Department of Health,
0:40:33 > 0:40:36£38 million to the Department for Education.Good you not have used in
0:40:36 > 0:40:41to ease the pressure on that Block Grant? You money will come and go
0:40:41 > 0:40:46but as long as that Block Grant keeps reducing the pain will
0:40:46 > 0:40:50continue to be felt.The Block Grant consists of the money that would
0:40:50 > 0:40:55have been voted by Parliament as part of the normal procedure plus
0:40:55 > 0:41:00the additional money which has been put into it, £410 million. The
0:41:00 > 0:41:05pressure has been eased on the Block Grant. Look at the reaction in
0:41:05 > 0:41:10Scotland and Wales, the fact that we were able to get additional
0:41:10 > 0:41:13resources for Northern Ireland while MPs for those two parts of the UK
0:41:13 > 0:41:17were not able to do so.That is not comfort to those families out there
0:41:17 > 0:41:21who will face £22 per month average increase in regional rates, where
0:41:21 > 0:41:26you are aware that was coming down the track, where you consulted?
0:41:26 > 0:41:32Everybody was where. The proposal in December was that the increase in
0:41:32 > 0:41:37rates for businesses and households would be in the region of 10% as a
0:41:37 > 0:41:41result of the negotiations we had with the Government, and also
0:41:41 > 0:41:46pointing out where additional money could be found and where savings
0:41:46 > 0:41:50could be made, we succeeded in having the increase for businesses
0:41:50 > 0:41:55maintained at 1.5% and four households at less than half of 10%.
0:41:55 > 0:42:01But still a lot of people will feel let down. The Secretary of State has
0:42:01 > 0:42:07gone be on the executive policy, the increase is hefty, £22 is a lot of
0:42:07 > 0:42:13money.It has £22 over the new, less than £1 per week.But this only half
0:42:13 > 0:42:20of the equation.There is council rates as well. If you look at the
0:42:20 > 0:42:22increase in the regional rate that is commencing that with what
0:42:22 > 0:42:29councils felt they had to do with inflation. Households ought to look
0:42:29 > 0:42:35at where the starting off point was, that was for businesses, which would
0:42:35 > 0:42:43have been a tragedy, 10%, and for households, 10%, businesses will
0:42:43 > 0:42:47face 1.5% increase, households, 4.5% increase. The other important thing
0:42:47 > 0:42:53is that the small business rates relief scheme introduced when I was
0:42:53 > 0:42:57finance minister and set to end this year will now be continued.As the
0:42:57 > 0:43:02ship of things to come? This is left to Westminster there will be more
0:43:02 > 0:43:05pain for the people of Northern Ireland, charges on lots of things?
0:43:05 > 0:43:12Is that what we can expect? The last Sinn Fein minister did not bring
0:43:12 > 0:43:20through a budget at all. Descartes from the sidelines but at least
0:43:20 > 0:43:28there is now a budget available. Sinn Finn failed. The issue is this
0:43:28 > 0:43:32budget and how it will affect people.What is in this particular
0:43:32 > 0:43:37budget is first of all, additional money, scrutiny of the kinds of tax
0:43:37 > 0:43:42increases that the Government had been contemplating and which have
0:43:42 > 0:43:47not materialise, but as a result of the direct input which my party has
0:43:47 > 0:43:52had in negotiations with ministers, discussion with several servants,
0:43:52 > 0:43:56that leverage we have used because of our voting ability in the House
0:43:56 > 0:44:02of Commons.Let us talk about the additional money, infrastructure,
0:44:02 > 0:44:08£200 million, who will decide where that goes?
0:44:08 > 0:44:12that goes?Some of the capital projects have already been through
0:44:12 > 0:44:17all the process, business cases, authorisation, procurement, etc,
0:44:17 > 0:44:22those projects will benefit from this infrastructure money. There are
0:44:22 > 0:44:25some infrastructure projects which are not yet have that approval and I
0:44:25 > 0:44:28understand that your Street interchange might be one of them and
0:44:28 > 0:44:38that will require further.
0:44:38 > 0:44:44that will require further. -- York Street interchange.
0:44:44 > 0:44:49There are areas of expenditure which still need ministerial approval. In
0:44:49 > 0:44:53the absence of a minister in the Assembly then the Government in the
0:44:53 > 0:44:58budget statement has committed that that will take whatever action is
0:44:58 > 0:45:01required to fulfil its responsibilities to the people of
0:45:01 > 0:45:04Northern Ireland.Are you saying behind the scenes you will have a
0:45:04 > 0:45:09big say in that? People think you may look after pet DUP projects.
0:45:09 > 0:45:14Look at our record to date. When we had the leverage with the Government
0:45:14 > 0:45:19we did not go after pet food Mac projects. We did not go after things
0:45:19 > 0:45:31which would give Nat -- give narrow political gain.Can you ensure some
0:45:31 > 0:45:35kind of transparency around this process? It is not good to be a case
0:45:35 > 0:45:40of the Treasury and the DUP disappearing behind a door?There
0:45:40 > 0:45:44has been total transparency so far, everybody knows where the additional
0:45:44 > 0:45:49money obtained will be spent. We know which department that is going
0:45:49 > 0:45:57on. It is going to go on health transformation, education budget,
0:45:57 > 0:46:01infrastructure, mental health, all of that has been highlighted. There
0:46:01 > 0:46:07has been total transparency, zero secrets behind the door deals. This
0:46:07 > 0:46:10is the important thing, our guiding principle, and all of those big or
0:46:10 > 0:46:14she shoulds with the Government we will be looking at how that
0:46:14 > 0:46:22expenditure can be best spent with the people of Northern Ireland.And
0:46:22 > 0:46:30the pay of MLAs?We have had discussions with her. We supported
0:46:30 > 0:46:39the report. We have said that you cannot, because MLAs are not
0:46:39 > 0:46:43fulfilling all of the functions which the ought to be fulfilling,
0:46:43 > 0:46:48because of no fault of their own, the fault of Sinn Fein, you cannot
0:46:48 > 0:46:52at the same time keep being Sinn Fein members at Westminster as they
0:46:52 > 0:47:00were fulfilling all the duties. She also knows that Westminster is
0:47:00 > 0:47:04giving millions of pounds to Sinn Fein MPs who are not doing their job
0:47:04 > 0:47:08and if we are going to have any balance in this we have got to see
0:47:08 > 0:47:12those two things.
0:47:12 > 0:47:13Sammy Wilson, thank you.
0:47:13 > 0:47:14Let's turn to our commentators
0:47:14 > 0:47:22Andree Murphy and Peter Shirlow.
0:47:23 > 0:47:28What is your assessment of the budget? In the long-term it is a key
0:47:28 > 0:47:33crease in real terms. The extra money that the DUP has got is
0:47:33 > 0:47:38welcome. There has been a series of cuts over time. 400 billion has gone
0:47:38 > 0:47:46out of policing. One of the disappointing things with the
0:47:46 > 0:47:50budget, clearly we have social care responsibilities, health and
0:47:50 > 0:47:53educational responsibilities. Ibiza to see a budget of except
0:47:53 > 0:47:59entrepreneurship, the economy, those sectors in the economy that start to
0:47:59 > 0:48:04stability growth. As much as I am concerned about hostility I am also
0:48:04 > 0:48:09concerned how can we have political thinking about the economy?How
0:48:09 > 0:48:13worried should we be that the Secretary of State went further than
0:48:13 > 0:48:17executive policy in terms of raising the regional rate and leaving some
0:48:17 > 0:48:24families facing a hike of £22?You need to put that in the context of
0:48:24 > 0:48:28severe pressures on working families and people relying on benefits. You
0:48:28 > 0:48:31are talking about cruel Tory policies in terms of capping child
0:48:31 > 0:48:35benefit, in terms of many of the other things that have been
0:48:35 > 0:48:40mitigated in the past after fresh start, I be good to see the
0:48:40 > 0:48:44continuation of that mitigation for those on the most income? That is a
0:48:44 > 0:48:51time-limited policy. We are not sure about that. All of society is going
0:48:51 > 0:48:54to be looking now and wondering, who is going to be taking responsibility
0:48:54 > 0:48:59in the absence of ministers? Are the DUP going to be benefiting? If that
0:48:59 > 0:49:04happens there will be a political cost around that. But there is a
0:49:04 > 0:49:09wider societal impact as the Irish Government going to have some impact
0:49:09 > 0:49:15on the devolved issues as well? There is that accountability now as
0:49:15 > 0:49:18to who is good to be making these decisions behind the scenes and food
0:49:18 > 0:49:23to to if they get it wrong?This is a period that the DUP this with the
0:49:23 > 0:49:27Government, they will have an influence, Sammy has said he
0:49:27 > 0:49:33believes that as an influence for the entire society. The media and
0:49:33 > 0:49:38others in society can comment on that. What is also important is that
0:49:38 > 0:49:42we understand that this is a point in civic society, we need people
0:49:42 > 0:49:46more than politicians to talk about mental health issues and how we
0:49:46 > 0:49:51build the economy and build more diverse economic sectors, it is not
0:49:51 > 0:49:54just politicians that are responsible, what we also want to do
0:49:54 > 0:49:59as a society.
0:49:59 > 0:50:00Thanks to you both for now.
0:50:00 > 0:50:03Well, while there may be a degree of greater certainty around funding
0:50:03 > 0:50:05it doesn't solve the problems in the Policing Board.
0:50:05 > 0:50:07While Stormont doesn't sit, the board's MLAs can't
0:50:07 > 0:50:10play their part which essentially means the board can't
0:50:10 > 0:50:11effectively oversee the PSNI.
0:50:11 > 0:50:15It's been that way for a year and set to continue for some time yet.
0:50:15 > 0:50:19I asked the chair of the board Anne Connolly what it was like to be
0:50:19 > 0:50:25in charge of a powerless board.
0:50:25 > 0:50:33It is disgraceful that we are in this situation. The police budget is
0:50:33 > 0:50:37732 million approximately, but is a lot of public money to be spent in
0:50:37 > 0:50:40one year. What other service would not have proper oversight and
0:50:40 > 0:50:45accountability structures in place? It is not acceptable. That is wrong.
0:50:45 > 0:50:49We do not hear a lot about it. People may be to not understand that
0:50:49 > 0:50:56that is what is happening. I find it very distressing that here we are,
0:50:56 > 0:51:02doing our best, but we have no legal mandate. We are not doing the job
0:51:02 > 0:51:06that the board should be doing. There's the problem that is the
0:51:06 > 0:51:11public probably have not noticed over the past 14 months that there
0:51:11 > 0:51:14has been normal Policing Board in operation because the face of
0:51:14 > 0:51:19policing has not changed for them? In some respect that is right, they
0:51:19 > 0:51:22have not noticed, that is because the nine members have got together
0:51:22 > 0:51:27and kept the ship running. We have had a number of public seminars
0:51:27 > 0:51:34which have been very successful.We have an average 70 people attending
0:51:34 > 0:51:39each seminar. Have you been shouting from the rooftops about that?We
0:51:39 > 0:51:42have been making noises but members of the public tend to pick and
0:51:42 > 0:51:52choose areas that the think, there are other issues, the policing plan,
0:51:52 > 0:51:56that must be approved by the board, we cannot do that. We have two
0:51:56 > 0:52:02brought over from last year. The board has responsibility in terms of
0:52:02 > 0:52:04estates management, financial and human resources, senior appointments
0:52:04 > 0:52:11of police officers, senior staff, we cannot do that.What in practical
0:52:11 > 0:52:16terms will not be happening because we do not have a board?We do not
0:52:16 > 0:52:21have a policing plan for this year. We should be looking at what are the
0:52:21 > 0:52:26current issues for policing. We cannot plan ahead with the Chief
0:52:26 > 0:52:31Constable and discuss how we might do things. We cannot have monthly
0:52:31 > 0:52:36board meetings. We do not have committee meetings which are the
0:52:36 > 0:52:38areas where we really get into the detail around various different
0:52:38 > 0:52:44alias. What about appointments?We cannot do that at senior level. Are
0:52:44 > 0:52:48there high ranking policing positions which remain and fills
0:52:48 > 0:52:52because we give have a fully constituted board?No. At the board
0:52:52 > 0:52:57we have one key post on the staff side which has been vacant for
0:52:57 > 0:53:02nearly two years? That is the head of resources. That is a very key
0:53:02 > 0:53:08role. We have a cedar officer who is on secondment, who should be coming
0:53:08 > 0:53:13back, and probably will come back, but that has to be agreed by the
0:53:13 > 0:53:17board, but we cannot take a decision around that post. If another post
0:53:17 > 0:53:21comes up in the near future we cannot deal with that either.In
0:53:21 > 0:53:25terms of what the Secretary of State could do to alleviate this what are
0:53:25 > 0:53:29you telling her? What are the options facing her? It looks as if,
0:53:29 > 0:53:32according to the DUP, we may not have our institutions back this year
0:53:32 > 0:53:41or maybe even next year.The options needs to be presented to her. The
0:53:41 > 0:53:44option of simply bringing back the MLAs is not there any more without
0:53:44 > 0:53:49change in legislation. My belief is the board has been around for 16
0:53:49 > 0:53:54years, we should be looking at what works well and what does not work
0:53:54 > 0:53:57well, what other organisation would not be reviewed and 16 years
0:53:57 > 0:53:59Christmas the police has undergone major change in 16 years but the
0:53:59 > 0:54:05board has not. We need to look at the options, somebody needs to draw
0:54:05 > 0:54:09that up. It is not my responsibility to tell her what to do this to what
0:54:09 > 0:54:13I am telling her to do is get a properly constituted board so that
0:54:13 > 0:54:17we can get on with it. What could that look like? It could look like
0:54:17 > 0:54:22what it looked like before and I would have no problem about, members
0:54:22 > 0:54:25from the Assembly were good hard-working members, we work well
0:54:25 > 0:54:32together. It could be a combination. Are you saying MLAs sitting on a
0:54:32 > 0:54:36board without an executive at Stormont?That was an option in the
0:54:36 > 0:54:40past, it is not at the moment, I do not think that is a good option.
0:54:40 > 0:54:44Policing has progressed and matured and I would hate to see the police
0:54:44 > 0:54:49board become a place for MLAs to have their arguments. I do not think
0:54:49 > 0:54:55that would be right. It is for the Secretary of State to determine
0:54:55 > 0:55:00whether it is a combination of MLAs and MPs or whatever.Our politicians
0:55:00 > 0:55:05making enough noise about the fact that there is not a fully costed
0:55:05 > 0:55:12cheated Policing Board?One or two who have made a noise have blamed
0:55:12 > 0:55:16the nine of us who are doing our best and saying why are we not doing
0:55:16 > 0:55:21this or that? We have to follow the legislation. The Chief Executive is
0:55:21 > 0:55:25the accounting officer, they cannot go out side public finance and
0:55:25 > 0:55:32accountability rules. Generally speaking they have been fairly
0:55:32 > 0:55:40quiet. There has not been a major storm and that has been wrong
0:55:40 > 0:55:44because we have been keeping it going but it is not satisfactory. We
0:55:44 > 0:55:49have reports sitting there that have not been advances, recommendations
0:55:49 > 0:55:53not taken forward.If you are still sitting in this cheer in one year
0:55:53 > 0:55:57and we still do not have the institutions back and you are
0:55:57 > 0:56:01effectively running a toothless board, Simon Hamilton has suggested
0:56:01 > 0:56:06it would be maybe two years, what impact would that have on policing?
0:56:06 > 0:56:10It has already had a negative impact. The police are wanting
0:56:10 > 0:56:16accountability. Anything we have asked them to do they have done that
0:56:16 > 0:56:19we can't make big decisions so do you really believe that?In a sense
0:56:19 > 0:56:24they have nobody looking over their shoulder, they could be in a good
0:56:24 > 0:56:29place.They could be in a good place but that is what they tell us. It
0:56:29 > 0:56:31has a responsibility, the responsibility of Government, to
0:56:31 > 0:56:36ensure that there is properly accountability for all public
0:56:36 > 0:56:40servants. The police should not be any different. The police spent a
0:56:40 > 0:56:43lot of public money. I don't leave it would be satisfactory to be
0:56:43 > 0:56:49sitting like this in one year. As time goes on more and more posts
0:56:49 > 0:56:53become vacant, you end up with a service that is having more and more
0:56:53 > 0:56:57people acting up into positions, that is not satisfactory for long
0:56:57 > 0:57:02term change and moving things forward.You are off to Washington
0:57:02 > 0:57:06this week along with the Chief Constable, what message will you be
0:57:06 > 0:57:09bringing across the Atlantic about the state of policing here in light
0:57:09 > 0:57:14of the challenges ahead?I do not want to see all of the good in
0:57:14 > 0:57:18policing fall and it could do. The longer this goes on the more likely
0:57:18 > 0:57:22the police are to get carefully about the entire issue, there is not
0:57:22 > 0:57:27the board to come to. I do not want to see that, my message would be, we
0:57:27 > 0:57:32need a board up and running as soon as possible, not some makeshift
0:57:32 > 0:57:36arrangement, something sustainable that will drive forward the issues
0:57:36 > 0:57:48that we need to drive.Do you think that the good work could
0:57:48 > 0:57:50that the good work could unravel in a sense this mumble continues?Of
0:57:50 > 0:57:52course it can. Any organisation which is left without having to
0:57:52 > 0:57:55report openly and unaccountably to the board and to the public will
0:57:55 > 0:57:57eventually more and more people will start to do their own thing and that
0:57:57 > 0:58:00gets very difficult. It is not acceptable in a democracy that we
0:58:00 > 0:58:04have public money being spent and not properly accounted for.
0:58:04 > 0:58:06Anne Connolly, chair of the Policing Board,
0:58:06 > 0:58:08speaking to me on Friday.
0:58:08 > 0:58:09Our guests are still with us.
0:58:09 > 0:58:14How worried should we be that a key plank in the reform of policing
0:58:14 > 0:58:22here has been allowed to drift?
0:58:22 > 0:58:31National confidence was already. The Policing Board and the police
0:58:31 > 0:58:36ombudsman 's office, first of the police ombudsman has been under
0:58:36 > 0:58:45resourced, and this rearguard action, and now the Policing Board,
0:58:45 > 0:58:48there are strategic issues around nationalists confidence in policing
0:58:48 > 0:58:52and that for the overall Peace Process is worrying.How surprised I
0:58:52 > 0:59:02knew that this has been allowed?It is not surprising. The status at the
0:59:02 > 0:59:05moment is the inability to deliver the Belfast Agreement. This is
0:59:05 > 0:59:12critically important because we are in the fees of fresh start, the
0:59:12 > 0:59:17process about tackling paramilitaries, and alternatively to
0:59:17 > 0:59:21deliver justice, already things that are positives are not going to
0:59:21 > 0:59:27happen. An example of the Belfast Agreement being slightly eroded.We
0:59:27 > 0:59:32will be put there. Fine too. Plenty of food for thought for the coming
0:59:32 > 0:59:35will be put there. Fine too. Plenty week. Now it is
0:59:35 > 0:59:37That's all we have time for.
0:59:37 > 0:59:39My thanks to Susan Kramer, Siobhan McDonagh and to Bob Blackman.
0:59:39 > 0:59:41And with that it's back to Sarah.
0:59:41 > 0:59:42Welcome back.
0:59:42 > 0:59:44The Chancellor's been out and about this morning,
0:59:44 > 0:59:47setting out his stall ahead of the Spring Statement on Tuesday.
0:59:47 > 0:59:48Here's what he told Andrew Marr.
0:59:48 > 0:59:52There is light at the end of the tunnel because what we are
0:59:52 > 0:59:56about to see is debt starting to fall after it's been growing
0:59:56 > 0:59:58for 17 continuous years.
0:59:58 > 1:00:01That's a very important moment for us, but we are still
1:00:01 > 1:00:02in the tunnel at the moment.
1:00:02 > 1:00:06We have to get debt down.
1:00:06 > 1:00:09We have got all sorts of other things we want to do.
1:00:09 > 1:00:12We've taken a balanced approach over the last couple of fiscal events.
1:00:12 > 1:00:18Using flexibility that we had to continue paying down debt,
1:00:18 > 1:00:21but also to provide additional support to our public services,
1:00:21 > 1:00:24to invest in Britain's future and to reduce taxes for families
1:00:24 > 1:00:28and small businesses who are feeling the pressure.
1:00:28 > 1:00:31Also appearing on the Andrew Marr programme, the Shadow Chancellor
1:00:31 > 1:00:33John McDonnell called on the government to end
1:00:33 > 1:00:40its austerity programme.
1:00:40 > 1:00:43One thing he has done is he has shifted the deficit onto the
1:00:43 > 1:00:48shoulders of NHS managers, onto shoulders of head teachers, and onto
1:00:48 > 1:00:53the shoulders of local government leaders and these Conservative
1:00:53 > 1:01:00council leaders now are saying that they are facing a financial crisis
1:01:00 > 1:01:05because the government have had cutbacks. This is not a matter of
1:01:05 > 1:01:10celebration. I think he should come into the real world because the
1:01:10 > 1:01:13resolution foundation said in their report today, 11 million people now,
1:01:13 > 1:01:16not just the poorest but those just about managing, will be hit next
1:01:16 > 1:01:21month by the cuts in support they get to the benefit system, so this
1:01:21 > 1:01:26is not a matter for celebration by any means.To unpick what we can
1:01:26 > 1:01:29expect in the spring statement and other stories next week, the panel
1:01:29 > 1:01:34are still with me. We had the Chancellor saying there is light at
1:01:34 > 1:01:38the end of the tunnel. How much pressure does is put on him from his
1:01:38 > 1:01:41own side let alone from the opposition to spend some more money?
1:01:41 > 1:01:45There's an interesting split in the Conservatives, those who say now we
1:01:45 > 1:01:48have a lemonade of the current budget deficit on day-to-day
1:01:48 > 1:01:51spending, we should take a chance to invest heavily in infrastructure to
1:01:51 > 1:02:01give the NHS more money, to spend money on schools, and then you have
1:02:01 > 1:02:06the fiscal conservatives like Philip Hammond to say actually debt is
1:02:06 > 1:02:12still 84% of GDP, we have got to start delivering overall surplus is
1:02:12 > 1:02:14not borrowing money to get it down because we face economic economic
1:02:14 > 1:02:20risks from Brexit. We know Philip Hammond does not look optimistically
1:02:20 > 1:02:23at that. And an ageing population on those pressures, so when things
1:02:23 > 1:02:28start to seem as if they are improving, you can't reduce the
1:02:28 > 1:02:35momentum.It was interesting early on the programme, talking to Sam
1:02:35 > 1:02:39Gyimah, he said students thought austerity was the ideological
1:02:39 > 1:02:45position of the Conservative Party, not a practical necessity. So if now
1:02:45 > 1:02:49we are reaching a point where there is potentially more money to spend,
1:02:49 > 1:02:56politically would be wise?It is because if the Conservatives failed
1:02:56 > 1:02:59to establish this narrative which they have been trying to form long
1:02:59 > 1:03:02time, under Theresa May they have abandoned it, this idea that living
1:03:02 > 1:03:09within 1's means as a country is an end to itself, I'm not sure what
1:03:09 > 1:03:14will separate them from the Labour ideology. If they absolutely abandon
1:03:14 > 1:03:18the point they have to be careful about how they spend their money,
1:03:18 > 1:03:23they could pledge 10 billion to one sector, and the Labour Party will
1:03:23 > 1:03:30pledge 100. If they cannot make that case it is responsible to be
1:03:30 > 1:03:33spending money responsibly because otherwise if you don't pay off your
1:03:33 > 1:03:38debt, it will mean higher taxes on future generations, these students
1:03:38 > 1:03:42and their children have lost that political argument already.The
1:03:42 > 1:03:46defining political argument of this premiership of Theresa May for the
1:03:46 > 1:03:50many and not for the few, are the fiscal messages we are hearing from
1:03:50 > 1:03:55the Chancellor, do they relate to that?Not in the slightest. You
1:03:55 > 1:04:02heard on the Andrew Marr programme, giving a receptacle slap in the
1:04:02 > 1:04:09face, the author of the just about managing speech, Mick Timothy is
1:04:09 > 1:04:14going to try to beat up the Chancellor on behalf of the Prime
1:04:14 > 1:04:18Minister's behalf, so those tensions will remain. I think the Chancellor
1:04:18 > 1:04:22is even more anal-retentive on the purse strings at the moment simply
1:04:22 > 1:04:27because of the government, the Tories don't have a majority. That
1:04:27 > 1:04:33means any single minority interest who can scrape together ten or 12
1:04:33 > 1:04:37Tory MPs, you can force the government to do a U-turn and they
1:04:37 > 1:04:43are piling up from defence spending, a strong Tory bid coming down the
1:04:43 > 1:04:52line on Universal Credit, putting back 3 billion into it. IDS, the
1:04:52 > 1:04:58socially conservative touchy-feely end of the party, to the NHS,
1:04:58 > 1:05:01tuition fees, every single one of those minority interests will want
1:05:01 > 1:05:07some sort of salvation. Now the Chancellor announces bigger that £10
1:05:07 > 1:05:11million -- £10 billion a year more yet to play with.Now usually at
1:05:11 > 1:05:19this point we are talking about the word Brexit and it does not come up
1:05:19 > 1:05:25yet and we can't
1:05:25 > 1:05:32yet and we can't ignore it it has been a big Brexit week.Yes, we've
1:05:32 > 1:05:39heard Philip Hammond tell us financial services will have to form
1:05:39 > 1:05:43the ultimate deal we get from the EU, and we've also heard the EU's
1:05:43 > 1:05:50guidelines. They are, unsurprisingly, taking a hard line.
1:05:50 > 1:05:57Those two things have happened. Another interesting thing, there was
1:05:57 > 1:06:11an interesting appointment that happened in the EU last
1:06:11 > 1:06:12happened in the EU last week, Jean-Claude Juncker's write man
1:06:12 > 1:06:17became secretary-general of the commission. There is a lot of
1:06:17 > 1:06:22disquiet amongst the MPs about this from across the European Union, but
1:06:22 > 1:06:27also political divides within the EU, and tomorrow they are demanding
1:06:27 > 1:06:32some answers in the European Parliament about this particular
1:06:32 > 1:06:35appointment and we, the Brexit nerds, we'll look at it very
1:06:35 > 1:06:38carefully. It raises some interesting questions and
1:06:38 > 1:06:43transparency and accountability within the European framework.The
1:06:43 > 1:06:47international trade Secretary Liam Fox is off to Washington at the very
1:06:47 > 1:06:52time the US president is threatening tariffs on steel and aluminium and
1:06:52 > 1:06:56it's an interesting one for British government because Trump has said
1:06:56 > 1:06:59allies can come and make their case to be exempted from this and Canada
1:06:59 > 1:07:04and Mexico have been, but we should not be going separately as the UK
1:07:04 > 1:07:07because we are part of the European Union at the moment, but if we can
1:07:07 > 1:07:11cut a deal, how would that go down in Brussels?Conservatives like Liam
1:07:11 > 1:07:18Fox said for years once we are outside the EU the advantages is we
1:07:18 > 1:07:22can get beneficial trade deals with major economies like the USA, and
1:07:22 > 1:07:27now he has the chance to test Donald Trump's words, so there's been lots
1:07:27 > 1:07:32of rhetoric about Donald Trump about you guys will get a big trade deal,
1:07:32 > 1:07:36but in reality he's always been a protectionist on trade. Will you
1:07:36 > 1:07:40make an exception for Britain? Does he think we are a significant and
1:07:40 > 1:07:44economy to make that case? If Liam Fox could get something, it would be
1:07:44 > 1:07:50a win for the Brexiteers. The government postponed the boat on a
1:07:50 > 1:07:53customs union because they were worried about losing it on the floor
1:07:53 > 1:07:56of the Commons after the Labour shift full support they can get a
1:07:56 > 1:08:00concession, it would help.A potential windfall Liam Fox but
1:08:00 > 1:08:04fraught with danger. If he gets a deal, the EU will be furious and
1:08:04 > 1:08:07that could affect the Brexit negotiations. If he doesn't come it
1:08:07 > 1:08:11will be rather embarrassing.He can't get a deal until 2021, an
1:08:11 > 1:08:21awful long time away. We remain within the EU's tariffs regime until
1:08:21 > 1:08:292021 because that is what we wanted. New Year's Eve 2020. There ain't a
1:08:29 > 1:08:32huge amount the government can do. If the government could broker a
1:08:32 > 1:08:39deal, there's talk of doing this, not country by country, but the Port
1:08:39 > 1:08:46Talbot manufacturers, high-density steel used to warships, he could try
1:08:46 > 1:08:49to broker some sort of exemption with that, but it will interview
1:08:49 > 1:08:56read the EU and give us an
1:08:57 > 1:08:58read the EU and give us an even worse deal. I don't think Liam Fox
1:08:58 > 1:09:02I'm afraid we'll win this debate. The big story with the Labour Party
1:09:02 > 1:09:08the moment of course is the election for their new general secretary. The
1:09:08 > 1:09:12founder of momentum standing against Jennie Formby from Unite. This is
1:09:12 > 1:09:15not the left and right battle we have been used within the Labour
1:09:15 > 1:09:18Party the two very strong significance figures from the left
1:09:18 > 1:09:22of the party battling it out to take over general secretary. Does it
1:09:22 > 1:09:26matter which one of them wins and how this proceeds for the Labour
1:09:26 > 1:09:30Party?It matters because you have two rival conceptions about the
1:09:30 > 1:09:36Labour Party should be. The view of momentum is you need more power is
1:09:36 > 1:09:40transferred to members giving members greater influence over
1:09:40 > 1:09:44policy and the trade unions still have half of the boat on Labour
1:09:44 > 1:09:48Party policy which act as a block and gives the general secretary huge
1:09:48 > 1:09:54power and then you have the Labour Party founded by the trade unions,
1:09:54 > 1:09:56we are nothing without the trade unions, of course they have to be at
1:09:56 > 1:10:01the centre of the Labour Party and therefore it is entirely appropriate
1:10:01 > 1:10:03Jennie Formby should become the new party general secretary, but this is
1:10:03 > 1:10:07a fascinating element and the left have defeated all of the internal
1:10:07 > 1:10:12opponents and it is now the split within the new party establishment
1:10:12 > 1:10:16that is playing out and some will draw comparisons with the Blairites
1:10:16 > 1:10:20and Brown Knights of the past. The two rival visions of what Corbin is
1:10:20 > 1:10:24should mean for Labour.With policy and vocations? Will make a
1:10:24 > 1:10:30difference to the of the Labour Party or is it about who it is?
1:10:30 > 1:10:34Small policy implications. Momentum are about as far left as you can
1:10:34 > 1:10:42possibly get at the moment in terms of selling up nationalisation is.
1:10:42 > 1:10:48Len McCluskey, unite, not perhaps quite as hard left as momentum. I
1:10:48 > 1:10:56think it is more the culture who runs the party, who has controls and
1:10:56 > 1:11:00what's fascinating is watching the Labour moderates this week. There's
1:11:00 > 1:11:07a few of them around. One of them described it as predator versus
1:11:07 > 1:11:12alien for the two terrible enemies eating each other as the revolution
1:11:12 > 1:11:15always eats its children will be a great battle my feeling is the union
1:11:15 > 1:11:19will win it. They have the muscle and bigger numbers than momentum at
1:11:19 > 1:11:24the moment.Labour moderates, it's been suggested Harriet Harman could
1:11:24 > 1:11:28be interested in being the next Speaker of the House of Commons. The
1:11:28 > 1:11:31second ever female speaker of course, but John Bercow has been
1:11:31 > 1:11:35there for a long time although there are allegations about bullying in
1:11:35 > 1:11:39his office which have resurfaced this week. Is there an opportunity
1:11:39 > 1:11:46do you think?Yes, would be interesting is how these bullying
1:11:46 > 1:11:49allegations, which are only allegations at this stage, play out.
1:11:49 > 1:11:53It's been talked about quite a lot and we have talked about this in the
1:11:53 > 1:11:58Green room actually, when John Bercow to go but he set himself a
1:11:58 > 1:12:01limit, coming to an end, the middle of this year. Does that mean he's
1:12:01 > 1:12:07now leaving his job? I think he has immensely enjoyed it but the MPs
1:12:07 > 1:12:12perhaps not so much on both sides. It will be interesting to see how
1:12:12 > 1:12:16that happens. And if it would be Harriet Harman, how the Tory MPs are
1:12:16 > 1:12:22going to react to her taking on as well?The Tory MPs don't like John
1:12:22 > 1:12:31Bercow.They don't like John Bercow or Harriet Harman but for her to
1:12:31 > 1:12:33become the speaker would be significant. Both culturally and
1:12:33 > 1:12:38politically. She's done more than any other MP to advance women's
1:12:38 > 1:12:41rights and you can see why, with such concern about the harassment
1:12:41 > 1:12:46allegations and bullying now at Westminster, for Harriet Harman to
1:12:46 > 1:12:51become the speaker would be a very important development for the its
1:12:51 > 1:12:55Labour MPs actually who have propped up John Bercow. He lost the
1:12:55 > 1:12:58confidence of his own side and if they start to turn on him his days
1:12:58 > 1:13:04could be numbered.Very briefly, Harriet Harman? Can you see it?Yes
1:13:04 > 1:13:08because John Bercow has about ten Tory MP mates, plus the entire
1:13:08 > 1:13:09Tory MP mates, plus the entire Labour vote and will always win
1:13:09 > 1:13:12unless the Tories can find someone unless the Tories can find someone
1:13:12 > 1:13:14they liked even more than John Bercow and there aren't that
1:13:14 > 1:13:18they liked even more than John more public
1:13:18 > 1:13:21they liked even more than John Harriet Harman.Thank you all for
1:13:21 > 1:13:24Join me again next Sunday at 11 here on BBC One.
1:13:24 > 1:13:28Until then, bye bye.