:00:39. > :00:42.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:43. > :00:45.A row has broken out between Number Ten and former
:00:46. > :00:49.Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,
:00:50. > :00:53.the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.
:00:54. > :00:55.I feel as though I'm one of the people that
:00:56. > :00:59.If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,
:01:00. > :01:11.It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult
:01:12. > :01:14.for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest
:01:15. > :01:17.Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.
:01:18. > :01:19.Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,
:01:20. > :01:21.but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance
:01:22. > :01:26.And coming up here... and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie
:01:27. > :01:29.More political fall-out from the Renewable Heat Incentive
:01:30. > :01:35.We'll hear from the SDLP's Nichola Mallon and the PUP's Sophie Long.
:01:36. > :01:53.think of it as an early Christmas present from us.
:01:54. > :01:55.We guarantee you won't be disappointed.
:01:56. > :01:57.And speaking of guaranteed disappointments - I'm joined
:01:58. > :01:59.by three of the busiest little elves in political journalism.
:02:00. > :02:01.It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn.
:02:02. > :02:08.So, we knew relations between Theresa May and some
:02:09. > :02:14.of her backbenchers over Europe weren't exactly a bed of roses.
:02:15. > :02:20.But signs of how fractious things are getting come courtesy of this
:02:21. > :02:23.morning's Mail on Sunday which has the details of a series of texts
:02:24. > :02:26.from one of Mrs May's senior advisers to and concerning
:02:27. > :02:31.the former Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan.
:02:32. > :02:35.Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,
:02:36. > :02:38.and has been pressing the PM to reveal more of her negotiation
:02:39. > :02:45.She's also apparently irked Downing Street by questioning
:02:46. > :02:52.Mrs May's decision to purchase and be photographed in a ?995 pair
:02:53. > :02:57.She said she had "never spent that much money on anything apart
:02:58. > :03:07.Mrs Morgan was due to attend a meeting at Number 10 this week
:03:08. > :03:11.But that invitation seems to be off, after a fairly extraordinary
:03:12. > :03:13.argument by text message with Mrs May's joint chief
:03:14. > :03:23.She texted the MP Alistair Burt, another of those arguing
:03:24. > :03:30.for a so-called soft Brexit, cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation
:03:31. > :03:35.and telling him to not "bring that woman to Number Ten again".
:03:36. > :03:37.The following day Nicky Morgan texted Fiona Hill, saying
:03:38. > :03:39."If you don't like something I have said or done, please
:03:40. > :03:53.If you don't want my views in future meetings you need to tell them."
:03:54. > :03:58.Shortly afterwards she received the reply "Well, he just did.
:03:59. > :04:03.And according to the Mail, Mrs Morgan, who you'll see
:04:04. > :04:05.in our film shortly, has now been formally banned
:04:06. > :04:21.So, Tom, much ado about nothing or telling you about the underlying
:04:22. > :04:25.tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am allowed to choose both. It says
:04:26. > :04:28.something about British politics today, that this is the most
:04:29. > :04:32.important thing we can find to talk about, because the Government are
:04:33. > :04:35.not giving us anything to talk about cs especially on Brexit because they
:04:36. > :04:40.don't have a plan as we know. There is is a lot of truth that are being
:04:41. > :04:45.spoken from this row, one is that Mrs May comes into Downing Street
:04:46. > :04:48.with a lot of baggage including spectacular fall outs with Cabinet
:04:49. > :04:55.Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan being one. We heard about the row
:04:56. > :05:00.over banning children from school. She fell out with Boris Johnson, so,
:05:01. > :05:07.she then enters Number Ten with history. When you are in Number Ten
:05:08. > :05:15.you start, you cannot be controversial and my way but the
:05:16. > :05:19.high way, which is why Fiona Hill kept Theresa May in the Home Office.
:05:20. > :05:25.You need to behave differently in the top job. It is surprising Nicky
:05:26. > :05:31.Morgan hats taken such a robust line. She seemed such a gentle soul
:05:32. > :05:36.as a minister. She did, Brexit has done funny things to people.
:05:37. > :05:40.Everything has been shaken up. It reveals really how paranoid they
:05:41. > :05:46.are, I mean you cannot have a situation really in which the, in
:05:47. > :05:52.which you know, Number Ten has got realise if the Prime Minister's
:05:53. > :05:56.entire stick is her authenticity and incredible connection, which is
:05:57. > :06:01.genuine, with voters outside the Metropolitan bubble, when she
:06:02. > :06:05.chooses to wear ?995 leather trousers you have to anticipate that
:06:06. > :06:09.journalists and MPs are going to take the mickey, that is how life
:06:10. > :06:14.works, but I think they are trying to run Number Ten as they ran the
:06:15. > :06:17.Home Office, and you see that in the rows they have had with Mark Carney
:06:18. > :06:23.and Boris Johnson this week, now you might be able to run one Government
:06:24. > :06:26.department in that control freakish way but not Government will hold
:06:27. > :06:29.together for too long, if it is run in that fashion. By try doing the
:06:30. > :06:35.whole Government like one department. This is just the start,
:06:36. > :06:42.Polly, we are still several months away from triggering Article 50. We,
:06:43. > :06:46.The Tory party is split down the middle, the thing that mattered most
:06:47. > :06:51.to the nation since the last war, it is not frivolous. It may look as if
:06:52. > :06:56.it is about trousers, it is about the most serious thing. What was
:06:57. > :07:01.split down the middle? Aren't the Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used
:07:02. > :07:06.to be the outliers, it is now the Europhiles, it is not a split down
:07:07. > :07:10.the middle. They won't vote against Brexit but they will, I think exert
:07:11. > :07:15.the maximum influence they can, to make sure that it is not a Brexit, a
:07:16. > :07:18.self-harming Brexit, to make sure that the country understand, when it
:07:19. > :07:24.comes to that point, that there may be really hard decision to make, do
:07:25. > :07:30.you want a real economic damage to be done to the country, to your own
:07:31. > :07:33.wallet, in, in exchange for being able to stop free movement or is
:07:34. > :07:37.that trade off in the end going to be just too expensive? We have seen
:07:38. > :07:43.polls suggesting people are beginning to move, and not willing,
:07:44. > :07:47.a poll out now saying people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any
:07:48. > :07:50.money at all, for the sake of stopping immigration. So if itself
:07:51. > :07:58.comes to that trade off, the people are going to need to be confronted
:07:59. > :08:02.with that choice. The Irony is, I think the Tories are in the most
:08:03. > :08:07.exceptionally strong position, I mean what is happening here is that
:08:08. > :08:12.British politics is being realigned and remade along leave and remain
:08:13. > :08:19.lines, if the Prime Minister's luck hold, the Tories are looking at
:08:20. > :08:23.being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the vote with an opposition split
:08:24. > :08:26.between a far left Labour Party and depleted Liberal Democrats, that
:08:27. > :08:32.sound like a recipe for something similar to what happened in the
:08:33. > :08:36.1980s. You are seeing extraordinary alliances between left and right.
:08:37. > :08:41.The Scottish referendum rebuilt Scottish politics along the lines of
:08:42. > :08:46.pro independence, anti-independence and now Brexit maybe doing the same.
:08:47. > :08:48.So, rows within the Conservative Party over the price
:08:49. > :08:51.of trousers might be new, but over Europe, not so much.
:08:52. > :08:53.And this week's Commons vote on when the Government will fire
:08:54. > :08:56.the starting gun on Brexit, and what it will say
:08:57. > :08:58.about its plans before it does so, confirmed that instead
:08:59. > :09:00.of the eurosceptics being the outsiders,
:09:01. > :09:02.it's now the Remainers who are leading the resistance.
:09:03. > :09:11.While the Prime Minister was schmoozing in the gold-plated
:09:12. > :09:14.Gulf this week, back home the Commons was voting
:09:15. > :09:17.on a Labour motion forcing her to publish a plan for Brexit.
:09:18. > :09:18.Through some parliamentary jiggery-pokery, the Government
:09:19. > :09:21.basically got its way, but it did provide a platform
:09:22. > :09:26.for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs who voted to remain,
:09:27. > :09:35.We are getting somewhat tired, are we not, of this constant level
:09:36. > :09:38.of abuse, this constant criticism that we are somehow Remoaners
:09:39. > :09:41.that want to thwart the will of the people,
:09:42. > :09:46.go back on it and that we don't accept the result.
:09:47. > :09:51.I don't like the result, and yes, I do believe the people
:09:52. > :09:54.It's not good enough that these things are dragged
:09:55. > :09:56.out of the Government by opposition day motions.
:09:57. > :09:59.I'm pleased that it's happened but I wish the Government was taking
:10:00. > :10:03.Is Nicky Morgan really listening to her constituents
:10:04. > :10:11.I think I'm one of the people who stuck their head
:10:12. > :10:15.above the parapet so if you do that you're likely to attract attention,
:10:16. > :10:17.you're likely to attract abuse, but also actually levels of support.
:10:18. > :10:20.I'm having e-mails from around the country with people saying thank
:10:21. > :10:22.you for what you are doing, party members around
:10:23. > :10:25.the country saying thank you for what you are doing
:10:26. > :10:28.and saying, and I and others will continue to do that.
:10:29. > :10:31.I just think, as a backbench Member of Parliament,
:10:32. > :10:33.you've got to be there, particularly when we have a weak
:10:34. > :10:36.opposition, to ask the question that government needs to be scrutinised
:10:37. > :10:43.on before we embark on such a huge issue.
:10:44. > :10:46.Nobody comes into politics to become a thorn in their party leader's
:10:47. > :10:49.side, but at the end of the day it's such a massive issue that
:10:50. > :10:52.if you don't stand up for what you believe in,
:10:53. > :10:58.I'm not sure what the point is of going into politics.
:10:59. > :11:01.That puts her on a collision course with activists in her local
:11:02. > :11:03.party like Adam Stairs, a committed leader who accuses
:11:04. > :11:08.Nicky has promised me and the rest of our Conservative association
:11:09. > :11:11.she will be voting for Article 50 and she will support
:11:12. > :11:14.the Prime Minister's timetable, and we have just got to trust that
:11:15. > :11:16.and hope that goes ahead, but there's a lot of people
:11:17. > :11:18.who think she's taking sideswipes at the Government
:11:19. > :11:22.The Conservatives are very popular, she wants to be a Conservative MP
:11:23. > :11:24.and we want to see a Conservative government being
:11:25. > :11:32.I have no idea what she's playing at, I think she just needs to get
:11:33. > :11:35.on with her job as an MP, which she does very well,
:11:36. > :11:38.Now let's head to Anna Soubry's constituency nearby to see
:11:39. > :11:41.how her stance is going down with the voters.
:11:42. > :11:43.If Anna Soubry doesn't fully back Brexit, what does
:11:44. > :11:48.Well, she's going to have a little bit of a problem because the voters,
:11:49. > :11:51.especially in this area, they voted to come out of the EU
:11:52. > :11:54.so she will definitely have a little bit of a problem.
:11:55. > :11:56.She should stick for what she believes in,
:11:57. > :11:58.but I guess from a democratic perspective she does...
:11:59. > :12:14.She has admitted the fact over and over again that she wanted
:12:15. > :12:17.to remain, but her views at the moment, even in her e-mails,
:12:18. > :12:19.depicted the fact she's anti-Brexit still.
:12:20. > :12:24.Theresa May will host her most pro-European MPs at Downing Street
:12:25. > :12:26.this week to discuss the countdown to Brexit.
:12:27. > :12:35.Although now we know not everyone is invited.
:12:36. > :12:41.And the MP leading the resistance in the Commons on Wednesday
:12:42. > :12:43.was Ken Clarke, he was the only Conservative MP who voted
:12:44. > :12:46.against the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end
:12:47. > :12:49.of March and he joins us now from Nottingham.
:12:50. > :12:54.Welcome back to the programme Ken Clarke. Now, tell me this when David
:12:55. > :13:00.Cameron resigned after losing the referendum, you had to pick a new
:13:01. > :13:04.leader, which candidate did the Tory Europhiles like you put up to
:13:05. > :13:10.deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or no Brexit at all? Well, I can't
:13:11. > :13:16.speak for the others but I voted for Theresa May, I gave a notorious
:13:17. > :13:21.interview, it wasn't meant to be, I was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but
:13:22. > :13:25.somebody turned a camera on, I called her a bloody difficult woman
:13:26. > :13:28.which the Tory party probably needs, compared with Margaret Thatcher and
:13:29. > :13:33.said I was going to vote for her, I gave a vote for one of the younger
:13:34. > :13:39.ones first, but I told Teresa I would vote for her, she was the only
:13:40. > :13:42.serious candidate in my view. You voted for somebody you thought was a
:13:43. > :13:45.difficult woman, she is being difficult in ways you don't like,
:13:46. > :13:51.your side of the Tory party, you had your chance to put up somebody more
:13:52. > :13:56.in line with you, instead you shut up, so, why the complaints about it
:13:57. > :14:00.not going in your direction? I am not making complaint, it is not
:14:01. > :14:04.Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful mess, she was on the Remain side,
:14:05. > :14:07.she made a good speech during the campaign on the referendum, setting
:14:08. > :14:11.out the economic case for being in, setting out the security case for
:14:12. > :14:15.being in, which was Home Secretary, she was particularly expert in, it
:14:16. > :14:20.wasn't her fault that not a word it was reported anywhere, in the
:14:21. > :14:24.national media. Now, my views have been the same, I am afraid
:14:25. > :14:28.throughout my adult life, for the 50 years I have been in politics, and
:14:29. > :14:32.my views have been the mainstream policy of the Conservative Party
:14:33. > :14:37.throughout all that time, I don't expect to have a sudden conversion
:14:38. > :14:41.on the 24th June, and I think what I owe to my constituency, and to
:14:42. > :14:46.Parliament, is that I exercise my judgment, I make speeches giving my
:14:47. > :14:50.reasons, I make the best judgment that I can, of what is the national
:14:51. > :14:57.interest. I understand that. I would be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of
:14:58. > :15:02.course that is not what I am asking. How many Conservative MPs do you
:15:03. > :15:09.think you can count on to oppose this so-called hard Brexit? Is it
:15:10. > :15:13.40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea, because Anna, and Nicky, who you
:15:14. > :15:15.have just seen on the video who are also sticking to their principle,
:15:16. > :15:20.they are only saying what they are been saying ever since they have
:15:21. > :15:31.been in politics, probably may have more idea than me.
:15:32. > :15:39.That is three, how many more? I don't know, we will find out. We are
:15:40. > :15:44.living in a bubble in which the tone of politics is getting nastier and
:15:45. > :15:49.the reporting is getting sillier, so it is all about Theresa May's
:15:50. > :15:53.trousers and whether Boris has made some inappropriate jokes. What we
:15:54. > :15:57.need if we are going to abandon the basis upon which we made ourselves a
:15:58. > :16:02.leading political power in the world for the last 40 years and the basis
:16:03. > :16:05.upon which our economy has prospered because Margaret Thatcher got the
:16:06. > :16:09.others to adopt the single market and we benefited from that more than
:16:10. > :16:16.any other member state, so now we need a serious plan, a strategy.
:16:17. > :16:20.What is our relationship going to be in the modern world? How will our
:16:21. > :16:30.children and grandchildren make the best union they can? We need
:16:31. > :16:36.Parliament's approval of a White Paper and then start years of
:16:37. > :16:40.negotiation. This will run and run. This interview hasn't got time to
:16:41. > :16:43.run and run so let me get another question in. You seem to be quoted
:16:44. > :16:49.in the mail on Sunday this morning as saying if the Prime Minister
:16:50. > :16:54.sides too much with the heart Brexit group, she won't survive, is that
:16:55. > :16:58.your view? Yes because only a minority of the House of Commons
:16:59. > :17:01.think it is frightfully simple and you can just leave. The referendum
:17:02. > :17:06.campaign, the only national media reporting of the issues were
:17:07. > :17:13.completely silly and often quite dishonest arguments on both sides.
:17:14. > :17:18.Let me just check this, explain to me the basis... Know, excuse me, I
:17:19. > :17:21.have to interrupt because you said the Prime Minister won't survive so
:17:22. > :17:27.just explain to our viewers why she won't survive. She will be in a
:17:28. > :17:31.minority she starts adopting the views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan
:17:32. > :17:35.Smith. It's clear majority of the House of Commons doesn't agree with
:17:36. > :17:39.that and it would be pretty catastrophic if that is what we were
:17:40. > :17:45.going to do when we turn up and faced 27 of the nation state, and
:17:46. > :17:53.tell them we are pulling out of the biggest market in the world. How
:17:54. > :18:00.long do you give the Prime Minister then? If you don't think she will
:18:01. > :18:07.survive by going for a heart Brexit? I don't think she will go for a
:18:08. > :18:12.heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you
:18:13. > :18:20.think Liam Fox will determine the policy of the Cabinet? Liam has
:18:21. > :18:23.always been ferociously against the European Union although he served in
:18:24. > :18:30.a government that was pro-European for about two and a half years. Does
:18:31. > :18:34.he not survive either? You're trying to reduce it to my trying to
:18:35. > :18:38.forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which I haven't got a clue whether there
:18:39. > :18:47.will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they may be ministers for the next ten
:18:48. > :18:50.years, I have no idea. Liam and me, but also Liam and the majority of
:18:51. > :18:54.his Cabinet colleagues don't start from the same place. The way forward
:18:55. > :18:59.is for them to produce a White Paper setting out the strategy on which
:19:00. > :19:03.all the Cabinet are agreed. People should stop leaking the Cabinet
:19:04. > :19:11.papers they are getting, they should stop leaking against each other, get
:19:12. > :19:14.down and do the work when they have got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry
:19:15. > :19:22.to interrupt again but we haven't got much time. We saw in our film
:19:23. > :19:29.that a number of constituency members in those areas which are
:19:30. > :19:35.strongly Remain MPs like yourself, in our case in this film it was
:19:36. > :19:39.Nicky Morgan, the constituency party members are unhappy about this.
:19:40. > :19:44.What's your message to them? Don't they deserve an MP that reflects
:19:45. > :19:51.their way of thinking? Leavers are unhappy and Remainers are very
:19:52. > :19:59.grateful. Mine don't go in for abuse... That's probably because
:20:00. > :20:04.you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I get more from Remainers. I'm a great
:20:05. > :20:08.fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, I don't agree with them on
:20:09. > :20:11.everything, but the views they are putting forward are the ones they've
:20:12. > :20:16.always held and I think we are doing the Government to favour by saying
:20:17. > :20:23.what it now depends on is your success in agreeing a policy and
:20:24. > :20:27.then explaining to the public what you want to do. I shall be surprised
:20:28. > :20:32.if they manage that by the end of March, I think it is best to get the
:20:33. > :20:39.policy right first but we shall see. Have you been invited then, you say
:20:40. > :20:45.you are being helpful, have you been invited to this meeting in Downing
:20:46. > :20:49.Street on Wednesday for the soft Brexiteers? No, because I haven't
:20:50. > :20:52.been joining any of these groups. It's fair to say most of my
:20:53. > :20:59.colleagues know exactly what my views are. No doubt those that
:21:00. > :21:06.haven't had this kind of discussion with their colleagues before have
:21:07. > :21:10.been invited. I didn't expect to be invited. I get on perfectly well
:21:11. > :21:14.with Theresa May but I haven't been invited, but I don't think there's
:21:15. > :21:20.much significance in that. What do you think of the way Downing Street
:21:21. > :21:25.has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel sorry for women in politics. I'm
:21:26. > :21:29.glad to say men in politics don't have great lead stories about what
:21:30. > :21:33.they are wearing. Apart from my suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm
:21:34. > :21:39.not a very snappy dresser. It is tedious in these days that we still
:21:40. > :21:51.have a absurd pop newspaper stories about what they are wearing.
:21:52. > :21:58.That commenting on the Prime Minister's trousers, is it really
:21:59. > :22:04.grounds for banishment? No, of course not. Nikki and Teresa will
:22:05. > :22:07.have serious political discussions and if they want to have an argument
:22:08. > :22:15.about what they are wearing, their closest friends will advise them to
:22:16. > :22:23.keep it private. It is absurd. Given that the party appears to be
:22:24. > :22:28.deciding it has been all -- ordered to changes policies about Britain's
:22:29. > :22:33.relationship with the world, it needs to be taken seriously and this
:22:34. > :22:37.Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the serious discussion starts. Thank you
:22:38. > :22:39.for filling our vacuum this morning and of course no one would ever
:22:40. > :22:43.criticise how you dress. Of course. Now, seasoned observers will warn
:22:44. > :22:45.against reading too much into parliamentary by-elections,
:22:46. > :22:48.but they can provide a vital boost for a party leader under pressure,
:22:49. > :22:50.or provide damaging ammunition Following a disappointing result
:22:51. > :22:53.for Labour last week in Richmond, Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping
:22:54. > :22:56.for an early Christmas present at this week's
:22:57. > :22:57.contest in Lincolnshire. In Sleaford and North Hykeham,
:22:58. > :23:06.a constituency that supported Leave in the EU referendum,
:23:07. > :23:08.there was little Christmas cheer for Labour as it fell from second
:23:09. > :23:13.in 2015 to fourth place. That was at least a better
:23:14. > :23:15.performance than in Remain-supporting Richmond Park,
:23:16. > :23:19.where the party's candiate lost his deposit after attracting
:23:20. > :23:21.fewer voters than the reported number of local
:23:22. > :23:25.Labour Party members. Speaking for the Labour Party this
:23:26. > :23:31.week, MP Vernon Coaker said their policies on other major
:23:32. > :23:35.issues were "lost to an extent Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity
:23:36. > :23:47.is holding the party back. This week three frontbenchers
:23:48. > :23:51.were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy the party line and vote
:23:52. > :23:59.against a motion to begin the process of leaving the EU
:24:00. > :24:02.by the end of March. And a number of Labour MPs we've
:24:03. > :24:05.spoken to since Thursday's vote have said they fear the party now runs
:24:06. > :24:08.the risk of being squeezed by the Lib Dems and UKIP,
:24:09. > :24:11.or in the words of one, "being cannabilised,
:24:12. > :24:15.eaten from both ends". To compound their troubles,
:24:16. > :24:16.a national poll released on Friday put Labour
:24:17. > :24:19.at a seven-year low, trailing 17 It's still a season of joy
:24:20. > :24:26.for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters - they point to a series of victories
:24:27. > :24:28.under his leadership, including a by-election win
:24:29. > :24:31.in Tooting and the London mayoral Though neither candidate was a
:24:32. > :24:37.Corbynite. But there's a distinct lack
:24:38. > :24:41.of goodwill on the party of his critics - although having
:24:42. > :24:43.failed comprehensively to challenge him this summer,
:24:44. > :24:54.what they intend to do This morning Diane Abbott played
:24:55. > :24:59.down the significance of the results. The reports of the Labour
:25:00. > :25:03.Party's demise are exaggerated, we are the largest social Democratic
:25:04. > :25:06.party in Europe and the surging membership is down to the current
:25:07. > :25:11.leadership. We have the right policies on the NHS, investing in
:25:12. > :25:15.the economy, and as you know the Tories are fatally split on Europe.
:25:16. > :25:17.And we're joined now by the former mayor
:25:18. > :25:19.of London Ken Livingstone, and the former Shadow
:25:20. > :25:27.Ken Livingstone, in the most recent by-election Labour collapsed from
:25:28. > :25:32.second to fourth place, the one before that your party lost its
:25:33. > :25:38.deposit. What is the positive gloss on that? There's nothing new in
:25:39. > :25:47.this, where you have got seats which are solidly Tory, often voters
:25:48. > :25:53.switched to Lib Dem to kick other voters out. We have had good swings
:25:54. > :25:58.that indicate a Labour government so don't pay too much attention. It is
:25:59. > :26:03.like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour voters switched just to kick the
:26:04. > :26:12.Tories out. Don't read too much into these results, Labour did win
:26:13. > :26:15.tooting so it is OK. First of all I don't think it was a problem with
:26:16. > :26:21.the candidates in the by-elections, they did a really good job locally,
:26:22. > :26:26.but there is an issue with those residents and their attitudes to the
:26:27. > :26:30.national party, and I just think that when you have warning bells
:26:31. > :26:34.going off like that, we have to listen to what people are saying. I
:26:35. > :26:39.think what they are saying is they want an opposition party to have a
:26:40. > :26:42.plan. So yes we have got to attack the Conservatives where they are
:26:43. > :26:48.going wrong on the NHS, running headlong over the cliff for a hard
:26:49. > :26:55.Brexit, but we also need a plan for what Labour's alternative will be.
:26:56. > :27:00.When do we get that plant? Effectively you have got it already.
:27:01. > :27:06.John McDonnell has gone on relentlessly for the need for a
:27:07. > :27:11.massive public investment. For decades now under Labour and Tory
:27:12. > :27:17.governments we haven't invested in infrastructure, our roads are a
:27:18. > :27:21.disgrace, a broadband is antique. We need to be honest about this, if
:27:22. > :27:26.Theresa May can come back and say I've done a deal, we are leaving the
:27:27. > :27:31.EU, we will control our borders, we won't have to pay 350 million a year
:27:32. > :27:36.and stay in the single market, well... But that won't happen. If we
:27:37. > :27:42.are going to stumble along for two years heading for an economic
:27:43. > :27:45.disaster, that's why only eight MPs voted to leave, because they knew
:27:46. > :27:49.the harm it would do to their voters. If you have got a plan, why
:27:50. > :27:55.are things getting worse for you in the national polls, 17 points
:27:56. > :28:00.behind? If you look back, when I was leader of Chelsea my poll rating
:28:01. > :28:05.went down... But you have not been as bad since 1983 when you lost an
:28:06. > :28:10.election by a landslide. Over the next two years our economy will not
:28:11. > :28:15.grow strongly, it will limp along at best, as we get closer to Brexit it
:28:16. > :28:19.will get worse. All Labour MPs should be focusing on the economic
:28:20. > :28:25.alternative because nobody ever wins an election without a credible
:28:26. > :28:30.economic strategy. So as long as the country goes to hell in a hand
:28:31. > :28:33.basket, Labour will be fine. That's not good enough. You're not a
:28:34. > :28:41.commentator any more, you are part of the leadership of the party. It
:28:42. > :28:44.is to you. I will continue to argue the case for credibility,
:28:45. > :28:50.particularly in our policies, but the leadership cannot just sit back
:28:51. > :28:54.and watch this drift. On the Brexit situation, the Conservative
:28:55. > :28:58.manifesto at the last general election promised it would be yes to
:28:59. > :29:02.the single market, why aren't we holding them to account for the
:29:03. > :29:08.broken promise potentially they are about to do? If I had still been an
:29:09. > :29:13.MP, I would have been voting with you, rebelling, because we are not
:29:14. > :29:17.going to get any good deal to leave. Theresa May will stumble on for a
:29:18. > :29:20.couple of years trying to balance... The party policies were heard from
:29:21. > :29:27.Diane Abbott this morning is to get the best possible deal to leave. And
:29:28. > :29:32.I will believe it when it happens. So you don't believe a central part
:29:33. > :29:39.of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy has accepted the fact people voted
:29:40. > :29:43.to leave. He now said we now need to get the best possible deal and you
:29:44. > :29:48.don't think it's achievable. I don't, because why would the other
:29:49. > :29:55.27 members give us a better deal staying outside? You've confused me,
:29:56. > :29:57.why are you such a big supporter of Corbyn with his policy you don't
:29:58. > :30:09.think it's achievable? Everybody knows we are not going to
:30:10. > :30:12.get a soft exit, so we either have the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps
:30:13. > :30:18.millions, certainly hundreds of thousands of jobs, or we have to say
:30:19. > :30:23.we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot of people have been saying that all
:30:24. > :30:27.Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is why it is going wrong, I would
:30:28. > :30:31.suggest to you, that actually what the concentration on is the Tories
:30:32. > :30:36.are unclear about Brexit, they are in power, that is what matters, a
:30:37. > :30:41.bigger problem for Labour is whether Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut
:30:42. > :30:46.through or not. I think the YouGov poll this weekend not only gave us
:30:47. > :30:51.that double punch of a 17 point lead for the Conservatives but it had a
:30:52. > :30:56.33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of
:30:57. > :31:00.the plan, think, has to be to address this leadership issue, to
:31:01. > :31:07.make sure it is also a party that is listening to the wider public and
:31:08. > :31:14.not just the small number of members or the trotsites in Momentum or
:31:15. > :31:23.whoever is the latest Marxist on the... You The thing that is ox
:31:24. > :31:28.fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour has quoted bunkum. We have has 18
:31:29. > :31:34.months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy in the back and some in the front.
:31:35. > :31:37.The vast majority of Labour MPs have stopped undermining Jeremy. You
:31:38. > :31:40.weren't doing that well before. Can you imagine a situation in which you
:31:41. > :31:44.have elected a new leader and the first year it is all about getting
:31:45. > :31:49.rid of imand undermining him. I disagree with Tony Blair on lots of
:31:50. > :31:52.policy issue, I didn't run wound saying this man is not fit to
:31:53. > :31:59.govern. That is because you had no support for that at the time. The
:32:00. > :32:03.idea people will take lectures from Ken on divisiveness, that is like
:32:04. > :32:08.takes lectures from Boris Johnson on diplomacy, you have to make sure,
:32:09. > :32:13.yes, that we find some accommodation after the leadership election this
:32:14. > :32:20.summer, but the plan is not there right now, and you and the rest of
:32:21. > :32:24.the leadership has to be held accountable for delivering that, I
:32:25. > :32:31.want to hear what the plan is. It is FDR he told us earlier. If you have
:32:32. > :32:35.got now because as we saw in the Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio
:32:36. > :32:40.at 90%, you can't convince the public by saying we will throw more
:32:41. > :32:44.money at the problem, the public want a credible plan, where the sums
:32:45. > :32:49.add up, that you are not making promises that won't be delivered.
:32:50. > :32:55.They want that plan. We need to point out our history, when Labour
:32:56. > :33:03.Waugh the election in 45 Government debt was two times that it was now..
:33:04. > :33:07.Now.. They generated exports and within 50 years we virtually paid
:33:08. > :33:14.off that debt. Austerity is not the way to go. Our economy is a disgrace
:33:15. > :33:18.compared with Germany. I agree. What we have to start saying, there is
:33:19. > :33:23.decent jobs, where are they going to be coming from, can we have a
:33:24. > :33:26.society based on fair play and prosperity for everybody not just
:33:27. > :33:29.the wealthy, that means saying, some time, that people have to
:33:30. > :33:32.contribute, they have to put in, so we have to listen to what the public
:33:33. > :33:37.are saying on issues for instance like immigration, as they said in
:33:38. > :33:42.the Brexit referendum, but make sure we have our approach set out
:33:43. > :33:44.clearly, so people know there is a ability to manage, and control these
:33:45. > :33:48.things, not just ability to manage, and control these
:33:49. > :33:56.things, not just ignore them. Those tax dodgers who launder their money
:33:57. > :34:02.through Panamanian banks. If we crackdown on what might be 150
:34:03. > :34:08.billion a year of tax evasion and avoidance. That is a real outlier
:34:09. > :34:12.estimate as you know, way the highest, you cannot build the FDR
:34:13. > :34:18.programme on tax evasion revenues, alone, but let me ask you. You can
:34:19. > :34:24.say to Starbucks, if you are not going to pay tax on your profits we
:34:25. > :34:28.will tax every cup of coffee. Why don't you nationalise it? I was just
:34:29. > :34:34.checking that would be the policy. Let me ask you this. By what time do
:34:35. > :34:37.you get, start to get worrieded if the polls haven't given to turn
:34:38. > :34:43.round? I mean, I think they will turn round. When do you start to get
:34:44. > :34:46.worried? If they haven't? If in a year's time it was as bad as this we
:34:47. > :34:51.would be worried. I don't think it will be. Jeremy and his team will
:34:52. > :34:57.knows can on the economy, and that is wins every election. Bill
:34:58. > :35:00.Clinton, remember it's the economy stupid. People know if you are going
:35:01. > :35:03.to spend money they want to see where it is coming from, otherwise
:35:04. > :35:08.they will think it is their taxes that will go up and the
:35:09. > :35:13.Conservative, Theresa May, will scare the British public over plans
:35:14. > :35:19.that are not properly... What do you do if things haven't got better in
:35:20. > :35:23.12 months? We lost the leadership election in the summer but we will
:35:24. > :35:30.hold our leadership to account. What does that mean? It means asking for
:35:31. > :35:35.the plan, testing what the proposals are, are they properly credible, do
:35:36. > :35:40.they make sure that they meet the test the public... You just have to
:35:41. > :35:45.bite the bottom lip now, you privately, a lot of you think your
:35:46. > :35:50.party is heading for catastrophe. I don't think it is acceptable that we
:35:51. > :35:54.have this level of performance, currently, I am sure Ken agrees the
:35:55. > :35:58.opinion polls, and those by by-election were just not good
:35:59. > :36:01.enough. We have to show leadership, certainly on Brexit, hold the
:36:02. > :36:06.Government to account. Attack them for the crisis in the NHS, yes and
:36:07. > :36:10.on the economy, to deliver credible policy force, example on defending
:36:11. > :36:14.national security and making sure we stand up for humanitarian
:36:15. > :36:19.intervention. Final point, your party has lost Scotland. You are now
:36:20. > :36:24.in third place behind the stories -- Tories. I never thought I would be
:36:25. > :36:28.able to say that in a broadcast, if you lose the north too, you are
:36:29. > :36:32.heading for the smallest Parliamentary Labour Party since the
:36:33. > :36:36.war, aren't you. But that is our weakness, we in the 13 years of the
:36:37. > :36:39.last Labour Government neglected rebuilding our manufacturing in the
:36:40. > :36:45.way the Germans have done. Millions of people used to have good job, we
:36:46. > :36:48.used to have 8 million jobs in manufacturing it is down two. It is
:36:49. > :36:51.in the north, that Jeremy's strategy has the most relevance, of actually
:36:52. > :36:56.getting the investment and rebuilding. All right. We will see.
:36:57. > :37:00.Come back in 12 months if not before and we will check it out.
:37:01. > :37:02.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:03. > :37:05.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:37:06. > :37:08.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking
:37:09. > :37:11.about Boris Johnson's tour of the Middle East after straying
:37:12. > :37:12.off message, again, and the protestors attempting
:37:13. > :37:21.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:37:22. > :37:24.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.
:37:25. > :37:27.The First Minister got back from China this weekend
:37:28. > :37:29.to face more political fall-out from the Renewable
:37:30. > :37:34.Add to that the PSNI statement on people linked to Charter NI
:37:35. > :37:37.and all eyes will be on Arlene Foster as she returns
:37:38. > :37:44.With me are the SDLP's Nichola Mallon and the PUP's Sophie Long.
:37:45. > :37:47.And the DUP leader isn't the only one under pressure.
:37:48. > :37:50.We'll hear live from Dublin on how the past continues to cause
:37:51. > :37:53.difficulties for the Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams.
:37:54. > :37:55.And with their thoughts on all of that and more,
:37:56. > :37:58.my guests of the day are the Belfast Telegraph's Suzanne
:37:59. > :38:07.Breen and Professer Rick Wilford from Queen's University.
:38:08. > :38:09.Christmas can't come soon enough for the DUP leadership.
:38:10. > :38:12.Just as they were grappling with the Renewable Heat Incentive
:38:13. > :38:15.whistleblower's account, a new controversy around the Social
:38:16. > :38:20.Assistant Chief Constable Stephen Martin confirmed "an individual
:38:21. > :38:24.or individuals connected to Charter have recently been active"
:38:25. > :38:32.The SDLP's Nichola Mallon and the PUP's Sophie Long are with me.
:38:33. > :38:36.Welcome to you both. Nichola Mallon, first.
:38:37. > :38:42.What has Assistant Chief Constable Martin's comments changed?
:38:43. > :38:48.It has confirmed the concerns many of us had about the connections
:38:49. > :38:56.between individuals or an individual within Charter NI and the UDA after
:38:57. > :39:00.paramilitary activity. This is confirmation from the PSNI at the
:39:01. > :39:07.most senior level. But we knew this already. We suspected it but now we
:39:08. > :39:13.have the PSNI confirming it. The Executive can no longer take no
:39:14. > :39:17.action in the face of it and I have reiterated our call for a suspension
:39:18. > :39:24.of funding to this organisation pending and independent review. Is
:39:25. > :39:30.that reasonable, Sophie von? To suspend funding to Charter NI, who
:39:31. > :39:39.have proved they can deliver funding to deprived communities, these
:39:40. > :39:44.allegations were made and they rightly raise concerns about what is
:39:45. > :39:48.being done with this money. If investigation does commence I would
:39:49. > :39:54.hope the funding can continue so those communities can continue to
:39:55. > :40:00.receive it because they should not be punished for this. Nobody would
:40:01. > :40:04.doubt there is a community which need support or that Charter NI has
:40:05. > :40:09.a proven track record of delivering that support, but it is whether it
:40:10. > :40:13.is appropriate for individuals associated with Charter NI to be
:40:14. > :40:19.actively involved with paramilitaries. If loyalists are
:40:20. > :40:26.offered the chance to transferred from paramilitaries to civilian life
:40:27. > :40:30.and to contribute to society, they should abandon their role as
:40:31. > :40:35.paramilitaries and that transition must be complete, you cannot wear
:40:36. > :40:41.both hats as it undermines trust in genuine community organisations. So
:40:42. > :40:47.if there is an individual who was trying to were both hats, what does
:40:48. > :40:52.your party say? They have been offered a root out of paramilitaries
:40:53. > :40:55.and if they continue to were both hats they will perpetuate the
:40:56. > :41:01.stereotypes around ex-prisoners and we would be critical of that. Is
:41:02. > :41:06.that a helpful contribution? It is, and it is not a case of trying to
:41:07. > :41:14.were both hats, they categorically are. This is about activity in the
:41:15. > :41:19.present and being part of an organisation drawing down millions
:41:20. > :41:24.of public money. To be a member of the UDA is illegal, and are we
:41:25. > :41:29.seriously saying in the light of that and confirmation from the PSNI,
:41:30. > :41:36.there should be no action taken by our First and Deputy First Minister?
:41:37. > :41:41.I think that is outrageous. We now have a senior police officer saying
:41:42. > :41:46.he believes that individuals are involved in paramilitary activity,
:41:47. > :41:50.but the Renault cases pending, no prosecutions, so it's fine for a
:41:51. > :41:53.senior police officer to say that but one would expect if that were
:41:54. > :41:59.the case that something would be happening to stop that it doesn't
:42:00. > :42:04.seem to be happening. I think people are confused as to why that is the
:42:05. > :42:09.case. That gets to the heart of this issue because people like ourselves
:42:10. > :42:13.have had to drag information kicking and screaming from the First and
:42:14. > :42:21.Deputy First Minister and the PSNI. The PSNI need to back this up with
:42:22. > :42:26.evidence, it was widely reported that the First Minister and Deputy
:42:27. > :42:27.First Minister have received briefing on these individuals so
:42:28. > :42:32.what have they done with that? Emma Little Pengelly told me on this
:42:33. > :42:35.programme on 9th October she's confident this organisation has
:42:36. > :42:45.passed all the requisite She was happy about that then,
:42:46. > :42:51.convinced that was the case then. Did you think that now needs to be
:42:52. > :42:54.completely re-examined? Absolutely but I have no doubt it met the
:42:55. > :43:02.government's test set by the architects of which Emma was one. We
:43:03. > :43:08.cannot understand what there is to fear from an independent review. We
:43:09. > :43:11.were accused of calling this organisation into disrepute and I
:43:12. > :43:16.have been on the record acknowledging the good work by many
:43:17. > :43:22.people in Charter NI. That review was rejected by the Assembly. It was
:43:23. > :43:28.rejected by the Executive parties, not by the Assembly, but it is clear
:43:29. > :43:33.that to continue to do nothing sends a clear message. The First and
:43:34. > :43:38.Deputy First Minister are either content to back these individuals or
:43:39. > :43:43.afraid to stand up to them. They need to answer which of those
:43:44. > :43:49.scenarios it is. Sophie Long, what do you think the Executive needs to
:43:50. > :43:54.do to restore public confidence? There are huge questions to be asked
:43:55. > :44:00.of the PSNI. If they believed that key members of Charter NI are
:44:01. > :44:06.engaged in acts of paramilitary organisations, why are they not
:44:07. > :44:13.acting to halt some? The Executive putting pressure on the PSNI, I do
:44:14. > :44:15.not think altering investigations censored a good message about what
:44:16. > :44:24.is going on behind-the-scenes at Stormont. So an investigation would
:44:25. > :44:27.serve your purposes well? If Charter NI can continue with its funding and
:44:28. > :44:34.do its work, I have no problem with that. The Executive seem to be
:44:35. > :44:37.trying to bury it, which will only reinforce low public trust in the
:44:38. > :44:42.institutions and the idea that power has been shared out and they are
:44:43. > :44:49.keen to maintain their positions while people suffer and do not trust
:44:50. > :44:53.government. All this wrangling is getting in the way of delivering the
:44:54. > :44:57.kind of support and an underground, so what do you say to those
:44:58. > :45:02.individuals involved in Charter NI who may feel, and we don't want to
:45:03. > :45:09.name names, but they may feel that Stephen Martin was referring to
:45:10. > :45:15.them? If people in Charter NI feel that what they are doing is putting
:45:16. > :45:19.the organisation at risk and schemes that can alleviate poverty in East
:45:20. > :45:22.Belfast, I hope they could stand back and let those communities
:45:23. > :45:28.flourish and not hinder them any further. What needs to happen next
:45:29. > :45:33.as far as the Assembly is concerned? You said the Executive parties did
:45:34. > :45:40.not agree with the independent review but they have the majority in
:45:41. > :45:45.the Assembly. We need to have a bit of a reality check. We had Sinn Fein
:45:46. > :45:50.this week saying public concern around this issue was imaginary, so
:45:51. > :45:56.we need them to accept that there is a problem and to do something about
:45:57. > :45:58.it, so we are reiterating our call following the comments from
:45:59. > :46:05.Assistant Chief Constable Martin to suspend the funding pending
:46:06. > :46:10.timing... Even though Sophie Long says that would be damaging
:46:11. > :46:15.underground. It is damaged already because of the conduct by its CEO,
:46:16. > :46:20.Dee Stitt, and then because the board did an internal review and it
:46:21. > :46:26.has been most damaged by the inaction of the First and Deputy
:46:27. > :46:31.First Minister in the face of this. Do you think the Assembly should be
:46:32. > :46:39.recalled over the issue of the Renewable Heat Incentive? Yes,
:46:40. > :46:43.because that is a fiasco. We are talking ?400 million of taxpayers
:46:44. > :46:48.money and all I can see is inaction from the Executive, which fails to
:46:49. > :46:53.take responsibility and there is a lack of accountability. All of those
:46:54. > :46:56.need to be addressed. Are the opposition parties calling for a
:46:57. > :47:02.recall of the Assembly to discuss this? The SDLP have been clear that
:47:03. > :47:06.the First Minister should appear before the Public Accounts
:47:07. > :47:07.Committee, she should do the right thing but if not she should be
:47:08. > :47:09.compelled to appear. Let's hear what my guests,
:47:10. > :47:12.Rick Wilford Have these latest comments
:47:13. > :47:27.by Assistant Chief Constable No, all this was known about Charter
:47:28. > :47:31.NI and key individuals in a Spotlight programme in March and get
:47:32. > :47:37.the Executive has continued to decide to fund Charter NI and there
:47:38. > :47:41.were a photo opportunities with members of the organisation. This
:47:42. > :47:47.has not happened by accident, this is by design and I believe Charter
:47:48. > :47:50.NI is funded not in spite of the paramilitary activity of some of its
:47:51. > :47:56.members, it is funded because of that. Everybody here is saying this
:47:57. > :48:03.is awful, wringing their hands, but this is huge hypocrisy. All this
:48:04. > :48:07.information is in the public domain and it was known by Martin
:48:08. > :48:12.McGuinness and Arlene Foster and they decided to fund this
:48:13. > :48:18.organisation. The funding for Charter NI, Sophie Long said, is
:48:19. > :48:22.doing good work on the ground. Whether individuals are actively
:48:23. > :48:28.involved in paramilitary activity is not what the public want to see,
:48:29. > :48:34.what that politicians agree to and that is causing a major problem in
:48:35. > :48:40.terms of being able to continue. I think it has damaged the brand of
:48:41. > :48:47.Charter NI, as the Chief Constable underlined, it is something we have
:48:48. > :48:52.known since March. I think it is rather taking a sledgehammer to
:48:53. > :48:57.crack a nut in the sense of suspending all funding to Charter
:48:58. > :49:00.NI. There are ways and means in which both an inquiry can be
:49:01. > :49:06.conducted and the funding streams can continue to the work is done, so
:49:07. > :49:11.the First and Deputy First Minister need to find a middle way between on
:49:12. > :49:17.the one hand satisfying the public appetite for an explanation, while
:49:18. > :49:21.continuing funding, but I think the police have boxed themselves in.
:49:22. > :49:27.Stephen Martin said live on the radio with Nolan, if they have
:49:28. > :49:32.evidence then they need to suck it up, otherwise this is leaving a
:49:33. > :49:36.cloud hanging over the whole organisation which may be spoiled by
:49:37. > :49:43.a few rotten apples and it cannot be allowed to continue. That is a valid
:49:44. > :49:47.point, is it not? Stephen Martin can save what he is saying that then you
:49:48. > :49:52.would expect further action in terms of prosecution. There is a
:49:53. > :49:57.difference between information and evidence that will stand up in
:49:58. > :50:02.court, but this fiasco has robbed the Executive of having any
:50:03. > :50:09.principled stance on paramilitaries. This week we had fake handbags, A
:50:10. > :50:12.fuss about that at Stormont, yet an organisation with active
:50:13. > :50:15.paramilitary members is receiving ?1.7 million of public money. Total
:50:16. > :50:17.hypocrisy from the Executive. Well, the DUP isn't the only
:50:18. > :50:20.party with a leader Sinn Fein's Gerry Adams has denied
:50:21. > :50:25.that he lied in a Dail statement about the murder of a senior prison
:50:26. > :50:28.officer in the Republic in 1983. On Thursday the murdered man's son,
:50:29. > :50:30.Austin Stack, interrupted a Sinn Fein news conference
:50:31. > :50:33.and accused Mr Adams of lying. We'll hear live from Dublin
:50:34. > :50:35.in just a moment, but first here's our Dublin correspondent,
:50:36. > :50:44.Shane Harrison. Sinn Fein calling for Northern
:50:45. > :50:52.Ireland to get special status within the EU post Brexit, then Corston
:50:53. > :50:58.stack intervenes. You have information that is crucial to the
:50:59. > :51:03.investigation of my fathers murder. You took my father and his brother
:51:04. > :51:07.in a black coat van to meet with a senior Iranian figure. I want you to
:51:08. > :51:16.give that information to the garda. I am not interested in hearing more
:51:17. > :51:22.of your lies. I want to reject absolutely stunned's assertion that
:51:23. > :51:30.I told lies. I have not and I am quite content to cooperate with the
:51:31. > :51:37.garda in this. Corston stack's father Brian, a Portlaoise prison
:51:38. > :51:45.officer, was shot in 1983, dying 13 months later. Boston and his brother
:51:46. > :51:52.were told that their fathers murder was wrong and an IRA member had been
:51:53. > :51:59.disciplined. They want the Sinn Fein leader to give the irony leader's
:52:00. > :52:04.name to the authorities. It is alleged that during the election
:52:05. > :52:08.campaign that Sinn Fein leader e-mailed the Irish Police
:52:09. > :52:16.Commissioner for names connected with the murder. Corston stack says
:52:17. > :52:26.he never gave the Sinn Fein leader any names. I have tried to do my
:52:27. > :52:33.best to help the stack family. After Gerry Adams read a statement on the
:52:34. > :52:38.matter in the Dail, to Sinn Fein TDs with convictions angrily involved
:52:39. > :52:45.any involvement in the murder. For the Sinn Fein leader, questions
:52:46. > :52:47.remain. Joining me now from Dublin is
:52:48. > :52:54.Stephen Collins from the Irish Times. This case has come back to
:52:55. > :52:59.short -- to want Sinn Fein time and again. How much pressure is Gerry
:53:00. > :53:04.Adams under at the moment? I'm not sure how much internal pressure he
:53:05. > :53:11.is under that he is under pressure from the government and the enough
:53:12. > :53:17.oil. This issue has resident -- resonance because the person
:53:18. > :53:21.murdered was a prison officer at Portlaoise so sometimes people feel
:53:22. > :53:28.that things in Northern Ireland do not do much damage but this does. It
:53:29. > :53:31.puts Sinn Fein on the back foot. They are a strong opposition party,
:53:32. > :53:39.the main opposition party because the enough oil are involved in the
:53:40. > :53:42.government and keeping them in place, so they try to portray
:53:43. > :53:46.themselves as the main opposition party and every now and then these
:53:47. > :53:53.issues from the past come back to haunt Gerry Adams. It is a complex
:53:54. > :53:57.case in which the various parties insist there is is an accurate
:53:58. > :54:03.reflection of their knowledge of the 1983 killing. What else can Mr Adams
:54:04. > :54:09.do to persuade people he has not done anything wrong? I don't think
:54:10. > :54:12.there is much more he can do. His own supporters will feel he has
:54:13. > :54:17.handled things all right, people opposed to Sinn Fein will feel this
:54:18. > :54:21.is another example of the past of the republican movement that makes
:54:22. > :54:25.them unfit for office, so Gerry Adams will not do anything more, he
:54:26. > :54:32.has made his statement, the Taoiseach has called on him to give
:54:33. > :54:39.the name to the gardai of the person he took the brothers to see, I do
:54:40. > :54:40.not think that will happen and the controversy will rumble on until it
:54:41. > :54:44.is replaced by the next one. There's been a lot of talk
:54:45. > :54:47.about a transition process Will last week's news that
:54:48. > :54:50.Martin McGuinness didn't travel to China on medical advice make
:54:51. > :54:53.the party think more seriously about changes at the top
:54:54. > :55:01.of the organisation? There has been a lot of talk in the
:55:02. > :55:06.media about changes at the top of the organisation, especially
:55:07. > :55:10.relating to Gerry Adams, the fact that Martin McGuinness could not
:55:11. > :55:15.travel has raised questions but it is difficult for people outside the
:55:16. > :55:18.republican movement to note if anything is going on. You can talk
:55:19. > :55:23.to other TDs who might privately tell you what is happening in the
:55:24. > :55:29.party or how long they believe Enda Kenny should remain as Taoiseach but
:55:30. > :55:33.Sinn Fein are more disciplined, they don't leak or talk to outsiders
:55:34. > :55:37.about their internal matters, so it is hard to gauge whether this is a
:55:38. > :55:43.real issue for them but given the age of Mr Adams and Mr McGuinness,
:55:44. > :55:47.they have to be coming close to an age where the party is looking at
:55:48. > :55:48.the next age of leadership and that will be interesting.
:55:49. > :55:52.Time for a look back at the week in 60 seconds.
:55:53. > :55:58.She may have been on the other side of the world,
:55:59. > :56:01.but the ?400 million bill for the Renewable Heat Incentive
:56:02. > :56:05.and who was to blame for it followed the First Minister to China,
:56:06. > :56:09.with opposition leaders challenging her handling of the scheme.
:56:10. > :56:13.There is a place for opposition to call for ministers to consider their
:56:14. > :56:14.positions when appropriate. Economy Minister Simon Hamilton
:56:15. > :56:25.was sent out to firefight. She should not resign because there
:56:26. > :56:26.is nothing going on. There was no crystallisation of the problem
:56:27. > :56:27.during her time. David Ford sought to amend
:56:28. > :56:40.abortion legislation To decriminalise medical provision
:56:41. > :56:41.of -- termination of a pregnancy in cases where there is no fatal
:56:42. > :56:42.abnormality. In London, 11 Supreme court justices
:56:43. > :56:45.gathered to hear the case challenging the government's
:56:46. > :56:47.authority to trigger Article 50 without seeking
:56:48. > :56:48.the consent of Parliament. However, in the Commons,
:56:49. > :56:50.MPs voted to start And Christmas came
:56:51. > :56:56.early for Stormont. And as Mark mentioned there,
:56:57. > :57:07.Arlene Foster is back from her trip to China to find herself caught up
:57:08. > :57:09.in the major controversy over We did ask the First Minister
:57:10. > :57:13.to take part in today's We will take a final word from Rick
:57:14. > :57:21.and Suzanne. Arlene Foster was the Minister
:57:22. > :57:23.in charge when the scheme was being set up and she clearly has
:57:24. > :57:34.questions to answer. She does, it has become a kind of
:57:35. > :57:39.trip of ministerial office since the late 1980s that ministers are
:57:40. > :57:41.responsible for policy and civil servants for Administration and
:57:42. > :57:48.there has been an attempt to draw a line between the two but they are
:57:49. > :57:52.very fuzzy lines. The last time we had a precarious resignation for a
:57:53. > :57:57.minister carry the can for officials was in 1982 when Lord Carrington
:57:58. > :58:03.resigned over the decommissioning of a patrol vessel, so it is 40 years
:58:04. > :58:11.since something like that has happened. I think she will take
:58:12. > :58:16.refuge in the policy moving towards renewable sources of energy that the
:58:17. > :58:22.administration went pear shaped and that is the fault of civil servants,
:58:23. > :58:27.so when Nye Bevan said in the 1940s when he became minister of health,
:58:28. > :58:31.I'm responsible for every bedpan dropped from lands end to John
:58:32. > :58:36.O'Groats, that does not happen anymore and this will be shunted
:58:37. > :58:40.into the administrative undergrowth and somebody there should suffer
:58:41. > :58:45.because this is a scandalous misallocation of public money.
:58:46. > :58:50.Ministers cannot have it both ways. They will take credit for things
:58:51. > :58:55.that civil servants do, no minister has said if there are job
:58:56. > :58:57.announcements it was not me, civil servants were responsible, so they
:58:58. > :59:04.have to take the breath that as well. This has been a terrible week
:59:05. > :59:11.for Arlene Foster. Her honeymoon period as leader is well and truly
:59:12. > :59:15.over and the DUP will be lucky if there is no election for five years
:59:16. > :59:23.because if there was, they would be under pressure. People are angry
:59:24. > :59:28.that she will take refuge in Saint that she is accountable but not
:59:29. > :59:31.responsible. Whether that line will wash with the public is another
:59:32. > :59:38.matter but I'm sure that is the line. The issue of transparency
:59:39. > :59:44.seems to be important. Who knew what and when, and two is benefiting from
:59:45. > :59:50.this? We heard at the weekend that Andrew Crawford, who is a spat in
:59:51. > :59:54.the Department, that his brother has legitimately benefited from this
:59:55. > :00:01.scheme but if more names start emerging, a couple of days or weeks
:00:02. > :00:08.of people who have connections with the DUP, that will bad in the
:00:09. > :00:12.public. There was a rough around the Peter Robinson administration, the
:00:13. > :00:16.last thing that Arlene Foster needs in this one. There
:00:17. > :00:17.still the biggest factor. We are running out of time.
:00:18. > :00:31.Now, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson was rebuked
:00:32. > :00:34.by Downing Street this week - yes, again - after the Guardian
:00:35. > :00:36.revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia of being among countries engaged
:00:37. > :00:39.in fighting "proxy wars" in the Middle East, breaking
:00:40. > :00:41.the Foreign Office's convention of not criticising a key UK ally
:00:42. > :00:44.in the region and annoying the prime minister who'd just returned
:00:45. > :00:51.The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was asked about it
:00:52. > :00:59.And let's be very clear about this, the way some of his remarks
:01:00. > :01:01.were reported seemed to imply we didn't support the right
:01:02. > :01:04.of Saudi Arabia to defend itself, and it is being attacked by Houthi
:01:05. > :01:06.terrorists from over the border with Yemen,
:01:07. > :01:09.didn't support what Saudi is doing in leading the campaign to restore
:01:10. > :01:16.Some of the reporting led people to think that, and that is all...
:01:17. > :01:19.This was simply the way it was reported and interpreted.
:01:20. > :01:21.The way it was interpreted left people with the impression
:01:22. > :01:30.that we didn't support Saudi Arabia and we do.
:01:31. > :01:32.Well, Mr Johnson has been in the Saudi capital
:01:33. > :01:34.Riyadh this morning, so how's he been received?
:01:35. > :01:36.Our security correspondent Frank Gardner is in neighbouring
:01:37. > :01:43.Bahrain, where Mr Johnson was earlier in the weekend.
:01:44. > :01:49.It has probably been a long time since there has been such interest
:01:50. > :01:53.in a British Foreign Secretary visiting the gulf region. What are
:01:54. > :02:00.the political elites there making of it all? Well, they think to be
:02:01. > :02:04.honest it is a bit of a storm in a tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall
:02:05. > :02:09.story, I think a lot of people I have spoken to tend to believe that
:02:10. > :02:13.Number Ten have made such a fuss about this, that it has created a
:02:14. > :02:18.story in itself. That said, though, I think that behind the scenes there
:02:19. > :02:23.was a certain amount of damage limitation taking place between
:02:24. > :02:27.London and Riyadh, a bit of smoothing of feathers and reassuring
:02:28. > :02:31.and the Stade Saudis tell me they are reassured the message they are
:02:32. > :02:36.taking is. Coming from Number Ten and they are not taking Boris
:02:37. > :02:40.Johnson's comments to heart. He is in the dam, he has met the king, I
:02:41. > :02:46.tweet add picture of that just a few minutes ago. He has been meeting
:02:47. > :02:50.Crown Prince, and he is now meeting the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis
:02:51. > :02:53.got an opportunity to brief him according to their vision of the
:02:54. > :02:57.Middle East. They will share their security concern, which is not just
:02:58. > :03:01.what is going on in Yemen, but they are very concerned about what they
:03:02. > :03:06.see as Iranian expansionism, that has been a theme here at this
:03:07. > :03:11.conference in Bahrain that Boris Johnson addressed only a day or two
:03:12. > :03:15.ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's supposed gaffes or even the Downing
:03:16. > :03:21.Street slapping down of him, we have had the Prime Minister in the region
:03:22. > :03:28.earlier this week, we have got Mr Johnson there now, can we yet divine
:03:29. > :03:35.what the May Government strategy is in the Golf? -- Guff. In three
:03:36. > :03:44.words, in Boris Johnson's words Britain is back. He was very quick
:03:45. > :03:47.to say not in a jingoistic running up flags, new imperial list way,
:03:48. > :03:54.although that is Howley be seen by some. He gave a very forceful speech
:03:55. > :03:59.which seemed to go down well the gulf hosts here on Friday night
:04:00. > :04:05.which said Britain made a strategic mistake in, after 1968 in
:04:06. > :04:10.withdrawing east of Suez and it will reverse that decision, and invest ?3
:04:11. > :04:15.billion over the next ten years in building up its military not bases
:04:16. > :04:19.exactly but facilities -- facilities that are here in this part of the
:04:20. > :04:23.world. There are currently 15 hundred hundred British servicemen
:04:24. > :04:27.and women in this region, seven warships and so on. It isn't
:04:28. > :04:31.entirely true to say Britain withdrew east of Suez because we
:04:32. > :04:37.have had a military presence on and off here, the RAF had a base here in
:04:38. > :04:43.Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91. In 2003, of course, British planes
:04:44. > :04:48.and troops deployed from this area, but he and Theresa May are both
:04:49. > :04:53.saying post-Brexit, Britain's big emphasis or one of the big pushes is
:04:54. > :04:58.going to be to redouble its ties with gulf Arab nations, that isn't
:04:59. > :05:03.going to come as an easy bit of new, I think, to human rights campaigners
:05:04. > :05:09.and anti-arms campaigners because a large part of the ?7 billion of
:05:10. > :05:13.bilateral trade Britain did with Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals
:05:14. > :05:18.and those arms are being used in the conflict in Yemen, in some cases
:05:19. > :05:23.with tragic consequences. Thank you very much for talking to us.
:05:24. > :05:31.Instead of concentrating on Mr Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street
:05:32. > :05:36.reaction to it. Frank Gardner there has just given us a really important
:05:37. > :05:40.development, or explained what the British are up to there now. They
:05:41. > :05:44.want to be back in the gulf big time. Isn't that something we should
:05:45. > :05:48.be debating and discussing? It is fascinating. It is yet another
:05:49. > :05:52.example post-Brexit I would say this is someone who voted to Brexit, that
:05:53. > :05:58.the world is changing, and Britain's role is going to be transformed
:05:59. > :06:03.post-Brexit. I mean just on the Boris point, I completely agree, I
:06:04. > :06:07.think a lot of it is ridiculous, in a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I
:06:08. > :06:13.think what is really important about it, is that Number Ten feel
:06:14. > :06:17.threatened by him, and the reason that these ridiculous gaffes and
:06:18. > :06:23.many of them are not even gaffes are pounced upon is he is the main rival
:06:24. > :06:27.for the Crown, so it is high level power play politics, and it is May
:06:28. > :06:32.trying to keep him in his place. What do you make though, of Britain
:06:33. > :06:37.is back in the gulf? That is the big story, is it not. Utterly bizarre,
:06:38. > :06:41.post imperial fantasy, the idea we are back east of Suez? We are
:06:42. > :06:46.breaking off from our closest ally, most like us, the rest of Europe,
:06:47. > :06:52.democratic, decent human rights country, and instead we are allying
:06:53. > :06:58.ourself to perilous, dangerous, unpleasant countries... Why should
:06:59. > :07:06.we be back in the gulf? If that is the trade off, these are, you know,
:07:07. > :07:10.these renasty kingdoms, petty unpleasant and unstable countries.
:07:11. > :07:14.Don't we have to keep the straits open otherwise the oil supply
:07:15. > :07:18.collapses and the world economy will go into the worst recession
:07:19. > :07:23.depression ever? Don't we have to be involved in that We do, and I think
:07:24. > :07:27.what happens is if we leave Europe and we need trade everywhere else,
:07:28. > :07:30.we have to travel the world on our knees begging for friends from the
:07:31. > :07:38.most unsavoury people, where ever they are, whether it is... You keep
:07:39. > :07:41.saying we are leaving Europe, that is a geographic impossibility.
:07:42. > :07:46.Britain is part of Europe, we are the... Not what Liam Fox is saying.
:07:47. > :07:50.The key power in Nato, we are leaving the European Union, that is
:07:51. > :07:56.a different Tring from Europe. I am trying to move away from Mr Johnson,
:07:57. > :08:01.or even Downing Street to... You got yourself into a Brexit row.
:08:02. > :08:05.Everything is through the prism of Brexit, even what you have for
:08:06. > :08:09.breakfast, when you mix up the word like I did last week. What do you
:08:10. > :08:14.make of what Frank Gardner told us? I am somewhere between the two. It
:08:15. > :08:17.is a nighs the line say we are back in the Middle East and we will take
:08:18. > :08:22.this part of the world seriously, the truth is our military is almost
:08:23. > :08:27.tiny, it is smaller than it was in the Napoleonic wars, that is not a
:08:28. > :08:32.huge amount more. Of course there S one of the two new aircraft
:08:33. > :08:37.carriers, that will be deployed in the gulf, to help the Americans keep
:08:38. > :08:45.the straits of her muz open, because it is in Europe's interest, not just
:08:46. > :08:50.Britains, Europe's interest that these straits stay open, which is
:08:51. > :08:55.more so than America. That is what FRANK was talking about. That is no
:08:56. > :09:02.change, British foreign policy has been keeping the straits open... Now
:09:03. > :09:08.we have the ability do it. We don't have an aircraft aier at the moment.
:09:09. > :09:16.Nor do we have the fleet of ships it needs. It is a great thing to be
:09:17. > :09:20.trade morgue with the Nice, to be turning -- Middle East, to be
:09:21. > :09:24.turning round more tax revenues and the like. Even selling weapons. I
:09:25. > :09:28.don't know what more can be done. You look at what has happened. BBC
:09:29. > :09:32.has had horrific reports from the Yemen and if you look at what the
:09:33. > :09:38.weapons are being used for, is that the trade we want? Right. Let us
:09:39. > :09:41.move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a speech yesterday but he was
:09:42. > :09:42.inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell. -- interrupted.
:09:43. > :09:55.Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?
:09:56. > :09:58.Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then
:09:59. > :10:11.Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a
:10:12. > :10:17.distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be
:10:18. > :10:21.able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do
:10:22. > :10:27.something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather
:10:28. > :10:30.than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in
:10:31. > :10:36.general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning
:10:37. > :10:43.what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was
:10:44. > :10:46.interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had
:10:47. > :10:54.they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other
:10:55. > :10:59.than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics
:11:00. > :11:03.which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the
:11:04. > :11:09.British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the
:11:10. > :11:12.Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the
:11:13. > :11:16.things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is
:11:17. > :11:22.happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry
:11:23. > :11:26.watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last
:11:27. > :11:31.week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the
:11:32. > :11:38.west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.
:11:39. > :11:42.And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily
:11:43. > :11:48.Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If
:11:49. > :11:54.and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are
:11:55. > :11:58.talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than
:11:59. > :12:02.anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We
:12:03. > :12:06.will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I
:12:07. > :12:09.understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from
:12:10. > :12:14.analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it
:12:15. > :12:17.is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator
:12:18. > :12:24.of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in
:12:25. > :12:28.reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far
:12:29. > :12:33.you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty
:12:34. > :12:37.much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and
:12:38. > :12:40.the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the
:12:41. > :12:45.press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is
:12:46. > :12:50.behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.
:12:51. > :12:56.He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much
:12:57. > :13:00.of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is
:13:01. > :13:05.time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the
:13:06. > :13:10.cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,
:13:11. > :13:16.you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree
:13:17. > :13:22.at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want
:13:23. > :13:26.to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a
:13:27. > :13:28.reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,
:13:29. > :13:31.that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.
:13:32. > :13:33.that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.
:13:34. > :13:40.I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily
:13:41. > :13:43.Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.
:13:44. > :13:46.and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.
:13:47. > :13:53.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.