:01:24. > :01:28.Coming up in Northern Ireland: Billions are pumped into the
:01:28. > :01:38.banking system yet businesses here struggle to get a penny. So is the
:01:38. > :01:38.
:01:38. > :29:57.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1699 seconds
:29:57. > :30:01.game weighted against the smaller Hello and welcome to Sunday
:30:01. > :30:03.Politics in Northern Ireland. And it's all about the money today.
:30:03. > :30:06.As the Welfare Reform Bill makes its stormy way through Westminster,
:30:06. > :30:11.it is estimated the changes will drain hundreds of millions a year
:30:11. > :30:16.from the local economy. How can we afford it? I will be talking to
:30:16. > :30:19.Finance Minister Sammy Wilson in a moment.
:30:19. > :30:25.And they say they are lending, but are the banks really playing the
:30:25. > :30:31.game with smaller firms? Bearing in mind the Times Newenden with
:30:31. > :30:36.�20,000 in cash to put into an account and we have a turn down. --
:30:37. > :30:39.betimes that we went in. But first, with me for the next 20
:30:39. > :30:47.minutes, Ulster Unionist MLA Joanne Dobson and Sinn Fein councillor Jim
:30:47. > :30:53.McVeigh. What is your party's solution to
:30:53. > :31:00.what is going on with the dissident? It is very worrying this
:31:00. > :31:04.rise in a dissident threat. I had a rise last weekend -- I hadn't issue
:31:04. > :31:09.last weekend when a police officer went in to protect children and was
:31:09. > :31:12.set upon by a gang of the facts. It is important that everyone appear
:31:12. > :31:15.to the rule of law. They should look out for the neighbours and
:31:15. > :31:24.make sure the work with the police so that we can can find this to the
:31:24. > :31:30.history books. Jim make the, you had public discussions him on the
:31:30. > :31:38.dissident threat. How did that go? That went reasonably well. We had
:31:38. > :31:43.an exchange of views, followed by a play. First and foremost, it is a
:31:43. > :31:47.tragedy for the family. If this thoroughly depressing. These groups
:31:47. > :31:54.have no credibility they have no support and her communities and no
:31:54. > :31:57.strategy. At the time when Donegal is looking for to an exciting year,
:31:57. > :32:03.building the economy and creating jobs, these people try to drive
:32:03. > :32:13.away investors, opposed the efforts of the community in the city.
:32:13. > :32:15.
:32:15. > :32:21.is the solution? They'd do not have support. People within the
:32:21. > :32:24.community are talking to these people, confronting these people.
:32:25. > :32:30.Sinn Fein representatives are doing this on as a continuous basis.
:32:30. > :32:35.Trying to engage with them, persuade them that their strategy
:32:35. > :32:39.is pointless, futile, counter- productive, it is destroying the
:32:39. > :32:42.communities they claim to represent. We're trying to do that on a daily
:32:42. > :32:49.basis and we will have to keep doing that, confronting them,
:32:50. > :32:55.arguing with them and trying to make it as difficult as possible to
:32:55. > :33:03.operate. The Unionists need to talk to dissident republicans --
:33:03. > :33:07.Republicans? Be done a contribute anything. A deeper doubt such a
:33:07. > :33:11.negative image of Northern Ireland. We need to basically come down into
:33:11. > :33:15.the history books and get Northern Ireland moving forward. But should
:33:15. > :33:20.that involve talks with Unionism? think it is important that we keep
:33:20. > :33:23.moving forward. Now, the banks are rarely out of
:33:23. > :33:29.the news these days, but behind the headlines businesses say they are
:33:29. > :33:36.struggling to get loans from our financial institutions. To discuss
:33:36. > :33:40.that and more, I'm joined by the Finance Minister, Sammy Wilson. How
:33:40. > :33:44.is our economy going to talk -- cope with the �600 million less
:33:44. > :33:50.each year? First of all, that is not the case. That is the lie that
:33:51. > :33:55.has been put around. By 2017, we'll have welfare spending in Northern
:33:55. > :34:01.Ireland Corporate from �5 billion this year to �6 billion. The rise
:34:01. > :34:06.will not be as big as it would have been without welfare reform, but...
:34:06. > :34:10.What is the point of it then, if it will not save money? There are two
:34:10. > :34:14.points, first of all to focus of the welfare payments on those who
:34:14. > :34:20.most need it. Secondly, it is to encourage people to get back into
:34:20. > :34:24.work by making work pay. There will be, as a result of some of the ways
:34:24. > :34:29.in which money is targeted, they will be some losers and there will
:34:29. > :34:33.be some groups that gain. This actually fit in with the
:34:33. > :34:37.Executive's strategy. A whole point is to get people back into work and
:34:37. > :34:42.indeed over the period of the next four years, through the Department
:34:42. > :34:47.of Employment and learning, we're hoping to target 114,000 people are
:34:47. > :34:51.who are currently on benefits to make them more ready for work and
:34:51. > :34:56.to try to get them into work and whole apparatus of government,
:34:56. > :35:01.whether it isn't contracts we get out, or in spending on departments,
:35:01. > :35:05.the work we do with businesses, the investment at the track, we want to
:35:05. > :35:09.get Northern Ireland working. We want to get the people working.
:35:09. > :35:13.where do these jobs come from? One in five people are unemployed and
:35:13. > :35:17.those figures are not changing any time soon, or the? Youth
:35:17. > :35:21.unemployment has actually fallen. It but only very slightly. It has
:35:21. > :35:25.fallen and that is the first thing. That is the result of a lot of the
:35:25. > :35:29.good work that has been done, especially through the Department
:35:29. > :35:33.of Employment and learning, trying to place young people into jobs.
:35:33. > :35:37.She we have greater fiscal powers then? You could make a difference
:35:37. > :35:40.in terms of how much money people have. We have a distinct situation
:35:40. > :35:46.in Northern Ireland, there are more people disabilities, mental health
:35:46. > :35:49.issues. The whole point of welfare reform and what is attached to it,
:35:49. > :35:54.is to try and work through the problems that those people have, to
:35:54. > :35:57.try and place those who can be placed and the -- placed in work to
:35:57. > :36:02.be placed in work. Those people need support and we need to get at
:36:02. > :36:06.them. Can you guarantee that? of the reason that parts of their
:36:06. > :36:09.welfare reform in Westminster was put forward that we voted against
:36:09. > :36:13.was that we believe that there were some vulnerable groups that were
:36:13. > :36:17.not being properly dealt with in the welfare reform proposals and of
:36:17. > :36:22.course the house of Lords agreed with that as well. As far as what
:36:22. > :36:27.can we do about those we were to place in work, we are already doing
:36:27. > :36:33.it. We have programmes for giving people training in a public
:36:33. > :36:43.contracts, we have a social clauses which will require those who take
:36:43. > :36:43.
:36:43. > :36:47.on public work to take on long-term unemployed. I appreciate that, but
:36:47. > :36:49.can you guarantee that families will not be worse off, that people
:36:49. > :36:54.not have a situation where they have a lot less money coming into
:36:54. > :36:57.the house and their children may indeed suffer? The old problem of
:36:57. > :37:06.universal credit is to ensure that you do not have the kind of steps
:37:06. > :37:09.that you have at present, where you actually make work pay. But that is
:37:10. > :37:16.the aim that we have, that if someone moves from benefit into
:37:16. > :37:22.work, they should not have to pay a financial penalty. That is where
:37:22. > :37:25.the welfare reform proposals need honed a bit. We have been pushing
:37:25. > :37:35.with Westminster to make some changes and eventually they will
:37:35. > :37:53.
:37:53. > :37:57.come here to Northern Ireland. BBC's Dragon's Den is entrepreneurs
:37:57. > :38:07.under pressure, but that is worth it to give them a chance with an
:38:07. > :38:08.
:38:08. > :38:10.experienced business mentor. Here at the Northern Ireland
:38:10. > :38:14.Science Park in Belfast, small companies with big ideas are
:38:14. > :38:24.meeting investors with big money. We're the Dragons Den for Northern
:38:24. > :38:24.
:38:24. > :38:28.Ireland. David funding to get into business. This is the world's first
:38:28. > :38:31.inflatable car seat for children. We had been at funding the this is
:38:31. > :38:36.what their own cash for, but now we're at the point where we need to
:38:36. > :38:41.look at the various funding options available to us.
:38:41. > :38:51.This woman needs funding -- this man needs funding to turn his award
:38:51. > :38:52.
:38:52. > :38:59.winning play into a film. It can be very prudent and successful First
:38:59. > :39:02.investors -- for investors. Aaron Taylor's company develops software
:39:02. > :39:07.for the fast-growing computer gaming industry. He had no choice
:39:07. > :39:10.but to raise private investment. We've been in with two pretty well
:39:10. > :39:13.known banks in Northern Ireland and have been declined for bank
:39:13. > :39:17.accounts. Bearing in mind the times we have went in with �20,000 in
:39:17. > :39:20.cash to put into an account and were turned down. If they are going
:39:20. > :39:23.to judge start ups the same way they are going to be judging
:39:23. > :39:28.developed companies, then there is never going to be a benefit in that
:39:28. > :39:33.for small start ups that is really going to help them move forward.
:39:33. > :39:39.Northern Bank has just reported hefty pre- tax losses of more than
:39:39. > :39:42.�210 million. Business lending fell by 11%. The bank says this is
:39:42. > :39:44.partly because firms are more focused on paying off loans. In a
:39:44. > :39:47.recent report, the Department of Enterprise asked local small to
:39:47. > :39:49.medium sized companies, that's firms with up to 250 staff, about
:39:49. > :39:57.their experiences with banks. In 2007, 92% of companies successfully
:39:57. > :40:00.negotiated a bank loan. This dropped by a third in 2010. And for
:40:00. > :40:05.really small businesses, those with less than 10 employees, the success
:40:05. > :40:08.rate was halved, from 89% down to 45%. Banking analysts say that
:40:08. > :40:11.during the property boom in the last decade, businesses in Northern
:40:11. > :40:21.Ireland were far more likely than their counterparts in Great Britain
:40:21. > :40:21.
:40:21. > :40:24.to take on cheap bank loans for property speculation. This means
:40:24. > :40:29.that some companies are left with toxic debts, even though their core
:40:29. > :40:32.business is sound. The idea is being floated in political and
:40:32. > :40:36.banking circles that a NAMA-style bad bank could be set up to remove
:40:36. > :40:44.these debts in the hope that this might free up bank lending once
:40:44. > :40:48.again. And and they will be opening the books, looking at what sort of
:40:48. > :40:52.debts the businesses have. If those debts can be offloaded elsewhere or
:40:52. > :40:57.can be constructed elsewhere to be paid off in a measured basis, then
:40:57. > :41:02.that is certainly something that could be attractive to a lender.
:41:02. > :41:06.have almost been made into a political football and be -- and
:41:06. > :41:16.used to be the bankers to death. But what can we do to drive this
:41:16. > :41:32.
:41:32. > :41:36.Do we need one of those banks for Northern Ireland? I have discussed
:41:36. > :41:39.this with Mervyn King, who is the Governor of the Bank of England. It
:41:39. > :41:43.would have to be an initiative which would be done at a national
:41:44. > :41:51.level. However, the government itself has tried to find ways of
:41:51. > :42:00.easing banks through this with their vast quantity of the easing -
:42:00. > :42:04.- of the quantitative the easing. With no way of knowing if we're
:42:04. > :42:08.actually benefiting -- but we have no way of knowing if we're actually
:42:08. > :42:12.benefiting. There are no regional figures available. They could be
:42:12. > :42:15.lending loads of money in Yorkshire but nothing here. That is
:42:15. > :42:19.absolutely right. I have been pressing the government to give
:42:19. > :42:26.regional figures. The one thing that we do know what is that bank
:42:26. > :42:30.lending last year in Northern Ireland was about �60 billion -- �6
:42:30. > :42:33.billion and De deposits were �8 billion. We do not actually know
:42:33. > :42:38.what the net lending is, because firms are always repaying loans or
:42:39. > :42:43.being forced, even worse, to repay loans. Those kind of figures we do
:42:43. > :42:50.not have available. One of the problems in all of this is that
:42:50. > :42:54.there is a huge gap in our knowledge about what is happening.
:42:54. > :42:58.Banks make one claim and businesses make another claim. So, who is
:42:58. > :43:03.right? Because of the gap in knowledge about what is actually
:43:03. > :43:07.happening, we cannot be fully aware of what is happening. The one thing
:43:07. > :43:09.I am fairly sure of and the Executive is looking at ways of
:43:09. > :43:14.addressing this is that we're never getting that the time when the only
:43:14. > :43:18.source of money for presences is going to be back lending. And
:43:18. > :43:21.indeed, looking at the club that you showed there, we're going to
:43:22. > :43:25.have taught it equity funding, were people take a stake in some of
:43:25. > :43:29.these businesses, not necessarily a bad thing, because when they take a
:43:29. > :43:36.stake in it, they will bring some expertise into the building, into
:43:36. > :43:40.the business. Until could what sources we can get for the
:43:40. > :43:44.secretary funds. The difficulty for the business people taking the risk
:43:44. > :43:50.is that is not as same as a bank -- not the same as a bank. They could
:43:50. > :43:53.not get an overdraft to tide him over. In many cases, because of the
:43:53. > :43:56.venture's you're talking about, that is not the one that they need.
:43:56. > :44:01.The need to have any put into the business which carries some of the
:44:01. > :44:05.rest of the business. Don't forget, with a loan, all of the rest is
:44:05. > :44:10.carried by the distance itself. If somebody put equity funds in, they
:44:10. > :44:15.are making money available for all of which they could lose. For high
:44:15. > :44:19.risk businesses, equity funding is one way of trying to make money
:44:19. > :44:24.available and we have got to find new combinations. That means that
:44:24. > :44:28.we do have to first of all pitch the banks as to what they are doing
:44:28. > :44:32.for businesses. Don't forget, the need it and the long term and we
:44:32. > :44:39.need banks also. We need them to be providing their oil in the economy.
:44:39. > :44:43.We need to look at different ways of financing. A 50 million loan
:44:43. > :44:47.guarantee fund has been introduced, which is designed to help us and
:44:47. > :44:57.says over it does lending difficulties. Jimmy Gray, your
:44:57. > :44:59.
:44:59. > :45:04.party called this week for greater fiscal powers. -- Jim McVeigh.
:45:04. > :45:08.There's very little that the Executive can do to make the banks
:45:08. > :45:15.will listen the purse strings. We want to see fiscal powers to be
:45:15. > :45:25.devolved to this part of. At this particular time, companies need
:45:25. > :45:25.
:45:25. > :45:32.more stimulus, investment. Just recently, Belfast City Council
:45:32. > :45:35.announced a 150 million capital investment programme. It has been
:45:35. > :45:45.criticised in the press for talking about money it does not actually
:45:45. > :45:45.
:45:45. > :45:48.have yet if, in European funding that is not actually secure. Most
:45:48. > :45:53.commentators have said it is real money for real projects. A
:45:53. > :45:58.significant amount of air power is in -- growing in the economy. It is
:45:58. > :46:01.not just about back money. The banks did to step up their mark. It
:46:01. > :46:05.is a right that we feel at -- we find yourself in the crisis that we
:46:05. > :46:09.are because at one stage they were too free with the lending and yet
:46:09. > :46:13.they there is a danger -- a danger of strangling the recovery because
:46:13. > :46:18.they are being offered Royd restrictive. We need everybody to
:46:18. > :46:20.start thinking about how we invest and how we stimulate the economy.
:46:20. > :46:30.Create new businesses and particularly a social economy
:46:30. > :46:35.sector. Joanne Dobson, in terms of the Agriculture's -- sector -- the
:46:35. > :46:41.agriculture sector, some businesses think they are it is sheltered from
:46:41. > :46:44.did Lt. Agriculture and -- the agriculture industry is so
:46:44. > :46:52.important and vital for Northern Ireland, I think banks should be do
:46:53. > :46:57.more to support that. I'm thinking of foreign diversification schemes,
:46:57. > :47:00.building up businesses. We have been held back and we need to help
:47:00. > :47:06.them. The banks need to get in demand help him with their export
:47:06. > :47:11.markets as well. Representing a large rural constituency, I know
:47:11. > :47:15.that they are the lifeblood of up - - my constituency. My office is
:47:15. > :47:18.inundated daily with the the very concerned local businesses which
:47:18. > :47:23.are facing closure. I think banks and to do what they can to support
:47:23. > :47:28.those existing businesses which contribute so much to do rural
:47:28. > :47:35.towns. Also, you cut was very interesting with new young people
:47:35. > :47:39.trying to get time to get presences off the ground. In my constituency,
:47:39. > :47:42.we have a business park which is brilliant at incubating new
:47:42. > :47:52.businesses and I think that should be rolled out across Northern
:47:52. > :47:52.
:47:52. > :47:57.Ireland. If you missed any of this week's political comings and goings,
:47:57. > :48:00.here's Martina Purdy with our snapshot in 60 seconds.
:48:00. > :48:04.The Queen's Diamond Jubilee was the first top of debate at Stormont.
:48:04. > :48:13.But what part will Sinn Fein play in the celebrations? Will it be a
:48:13. > :48:21.part it spoiled by it churlish, vindictive Republican Beatles. --
:48:21. > :48:24.vetoes. Golden handshakes for prison
:48:24. > :48:27.officers wishing to escape, but they are free to return?
:48:27. > :48:33.And what do you call it when the civil service goes ten times over
:48:33. > :48:39.budget on a project? If it walks like an overrun and quirks like an
:48:39. > :48:42.overrun, it is an overrun as far as the public is concerned.
:48:42. > :48:46.Speaking of farm animals, "Don't have a cow," say politicians who
:48:46. > :48:55.spent �70,000 on this art. Critics branded it a pile of Never mind.
:48:55. > :49:05.Alliance gets a gaelgoir, is the Finance Minister next? Op next will
:49:05. > :49:10.
:49:10. > :49:14.have their Member For antrum at speaking Irish? -- Antrim. Will you
:49:14. > :49:18.be speaking Irish? I know that we're immune from it. I have no
:49:19. > :49:22.difficulty with people speaking Irish, if they want. But the low
:49:22. > :49:24.point of our politics is to communicate so if you're speaking
:49:24. > :49:27.in a language that people do not understand, you are not
:49:27. > :49:31.communicating. The other thing is that we need to pay for translators
:49:32. > :49:36.and I think it is a waste of money. But a lot of people do understand
:49:36. > :49:40.language that is being spoken. but the whole point of those
:49:40. > :49:46.debates is the substantial part of the member's speech is not an Irish.