:00:41. > :00:44.Commons Speaker John Bercow is accused of compromising his
:00:45. > :00:47.impartiality by revealing he voted Remain in last year's EU referendum.
:00:48. > :00:56.The EU Withdrawal Bill clears its first Parliamentary hurdle.
:00:57. > :00:59.But will the House of Lords be quite so accommodating?
:01:00. > :01:05.Labour's Leader in the Lords joins us live.
:01:06. > :01:10.And we report from Stoke-on-Trent ahead of a crucial by-election
:01:11. > :01:13.later this month, where Ukip is looking to give
:01:14. > :01:16.And coming up here: They formed an opposition in Stormont.
:01:17. > :01:18.Now I'll be asking Mike Nesbitt and Colum Eastwood to set
:01:19. > :01:23.out their own visions for moving into the Executive Office.
:01:24. > :01:35.And with me a political panel who frequently like to compromise
:01:36. > :01:40.Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Janan Ganesh.
:01:41. > :01:47.I'll be trying to keep them in order during the course of the programme.
:01:48. > :01:49.So, Commons Speaker John Bercow has insisted his ability
:01:50. > :01:56.to act impartially is not damaged by reports that he voted to Remain
:01:57. > :02:02.The Sunday Telegraph reveals that Speaker Bercow revealed his views
:02:03. > :02:05.in front of an audience of students at Reading University
:02:06. > :02:22.This may not be popular with some people in this audience -
:02:23. > :02:26.I thought it was better to stay in the European Union than not,
:02:27. > :02:30.partly for economic reason, being part of a big trade bloc,
:02:31. > :02:34.and partly because I think we're in a world of power blocs,
:02:35. > :02:36.and I think for all the weaknesses and deficiencies
:02:37. > :02:40.of the European Union, it is better to be part of that big
:02:41. > :02:50.Speaker Bercow speaking at Reading University earlier this month. Does
:02:51. > :02:56.he not care is this I get that impression, he knows perfectly well,
:02:57. > :02:59.it states he has to be particularly -- Parliamentary neural. Whether
:03:00. > :03:04.there are going to be enough votes to force him out, the question, the
:03:05. > :03:09.last speaker wept out with the 20 vote against him. You yes to have
:03:10. > :03:15.the command of the support across the House. There is a Deputy
:03:16. > :03:25.Speaker, waiting, who would be superb. I think even the people who
:03:26. > :03:30.pretend to support Macis have had enough -- Speaker Bercow have had
:03:31. > :03:34.enough of his ways. The reason I ask whether he care, he didn't just tell
:03:35. > :03:38.the students that he voted to Remain, he then gave them a running
:03:39. > :03:45.commentary on all the issues that will be part of the Brexit
:03:46. > :03:47.negotiations, workers' rights, immigration, trade policy, everyone
:03:48. > :03:53.maternity leave got a hat tip from him. He would be a very well
:03:54. > :03:58.prepared Brexit minister if attendance needs a colleague --
:03:59. > :04:02.David Davis needs a colleague. I don't think this story makes his
:04:03. > :04:06.position untenable, what does is the wired pattern of behaviour of
:04:07. > :04:14.excessive candour on his political views, going back years, this is a
:04:15. > :04:20.guy who when the Queen visited Parliament described her as theical
:04:21. > :04:25.lied scope Queen. He had a running argument with David Cameron. We know
:04:26. > :04:35.his views on Brexit, we know his views on Donald Trump. . He has
:04:36. > :04:40.given interviews, none of the views are illegitimate but the candour
:04:41. > :04:44.which they are expressed with is scrupulous. Given Lyndsay Hoyle is a
:04:45. > :04:49.class accuse. He is the Deputy Speaker. And a fairly ready
:04:50. > :04:54.replacement, whether there is more of a movement to say, maybe not
:04:55. > :04:58.force Bercow out but acknowledge he has had a few years in the job and
:04:59. > :05:04.the question of successor ship comes into play. Has he concluded he is
:05:05. > :05:08.untouchable? What I can definitely say, is that he is determined to
:05:09. > :05:12.fight this one out, and not go of his own volition, so if he goes he
:05:13. > :05:18.will have to be forced out. He wants to stay. Which will be tough. It
:05:19. > :05:22.will be tough. Likely as things stand. I would say this, I speak to
:05:23. > :05:26.someone who likes the way he has brought the House of Commons to
:05:27. > :05:30.life, held ministers to account, forced them into explain thing,
:05:31. > :05:34.whenever there is a topical issue you know it will be in the House of
:05:35. > :05:41.Commons. He has changed that. He has. Time has been courageous, Ied a
:05:42. > :05:48.mire the way he has been a speaker. I would say this, during the
:05:49. > :05:50.referendum campaign, he asked me Nick Clegg, and Peter Hitchens to
:05:51. > :05:55.debate Brexit if his constituency. It was a packed out meeting. He
:05:56. > :06:01.chaired it. I said don't you want to join in? He didn't. He showed no
:06:02. > :06:08.desire to join in, he was impartial. He goes out to universities and kind
:06:09. > :06:14.of demyth GCSEs Parliament by speaking to them in a way, he
:06:15. > :06:21.doesn't gets credit for it and stays on after and drinks with them.
:06:22. > :06:25.Sometimes he, you know, it is clearly a mistake to have gone into
:06:26. > :06:29.his views retrospectively on that referendum campaign, I don't think
:06:30. > :06:32.that, did he try and stop Article 50 from being triggered in the House of
:06:33. > :06:37.Commons? That would be a scandal. Even that would be beyond him.
:06:38. > :06:43.Briefly, yes or no, could you imagine Betty Boothroyd behaving
:06:44. > :06:47.like that? Not at all. None of the recent speakers I could imagine
:06:48. > :06:50.doing that. It is good he is different.
:06:51. > :06:54.The bill that will allow the government to trigger Article 50
:06:55. > :06:56.and begin Brexit negotiations was voted through
:06:57. > :07:00.Many MPs were in a difficult position - unsure whether to vote
:07:01. > :07:02.with their conscience, their constituency,
:07:03. > :07:05.Europe, once such a divisive issue for the Conservatives,
:07:06. > :07:07.is now causing major divisions inside the Labour Party.
:07:08. > :07:12.So, let's have a look what happened in a bit more detail:
:07:13. > :07:15.Thanks to academic research carried out since the referendum,
:07:16. > :07:17.we now have estimates of how each individual constituency voted.
:07:18. > :07:23.It's thought that 410 constituencies voted Leave.
:07:24. > :07:30.On Wednesday night, the EU Notification of Withdrawal Bill
:07:31. > :07:32.was voted through by the House of Commons.
:07:33. > :07:41.The bill left the Labour Party divided.
:07:42. > :07:44.Jeremy Corbyn told his MPs to respect the result
:07:45. > :07:46.of the referendum and vote for the government's bill -
:07:47. > :07:49.But 52 Labour MPs defied Mr Corbyn's thee-line whip
:07:50. > :08:05.That's about a fifth of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
:08:06. > :08:08.Of those 52 Labour MPs who voted against the bill,
:08:09. > :08:10.the majority, 45 of them, represent seats that voted Remain.
:08:11. > :08:12.However, seven Labour MPs voted against the Article 50 Bill,
:08:13. > :08:15.even though their constituents voted Leave in the referendum.
:08:16. > :08:16.The Conservative Party were much more united.
:08:17. > :08:19.The vast majority of Tory MPs, 320 of them, voted for the bill.
:08:20. > :08:22.Just one Conservative MP, Ken Clarke, voted against it.
:08:23. > :08:23.His constituency, Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire, voted Remain.
:08:24. > :08:26.The bill will now go to the House of Lords -
:08:27. > :08:40.peers will start debating it on Monday the 20th of February.
:08:41. > :08:42.Joining me now is Matthew Goodwin, politics professor at
:08:43. > :08:45.He's got a book out next month called
:08:46. > :08:47.Brexit: Why Britain Voted To Leave The European Union.
:08:48. > :08:55.Welcome to the programme. Has Brexit, how you voted in the
:08:56. > :08:59.referendum and your continuing attitudes toward it, is that now
:09:00. > :09:04.becoming the new dividing line in British politics? I think it
:09:05. > :09:08.certainly is contributing to a new dividing line, in western politics
:09:09. > :09:12.more generally, we know over the last ten years, that the old left
:09:13. > :09:16.and right division has been making way for a new division, between
:09:17. > :09:20.essentially social liberals and Conservative, and Brexit was a, an
:09:21. > :09:24.incident a moment that really reflected that new dividing line, so
:09:25. > :09:30.it wasn't just the case that Brexit has cut across Labour's base, it is
:09:31. > :09:35.that dividing line, that deeper division is cutting across social
:09:36. > :09:39.democracies more generally. Is there a possibility, no higher than that,
:09:40. > :09:44.that it will reShane our party politics? I think it is too early to
:09:45. > :09:48.know whether this is a fundamental long-term realignment. If we look at
:09:49. > :09:54.what is happening in local by-election, what is happening at
:09:55. > :10:01.by-elections, pictures a bit mixed but if you look at how some of the
:10:02. > :10:04.Labour vote is responding, I think that potentially reflects the
:10:05. > :10:08.possibility of a terminal decline for the Labour Party, it is going to
:10:09. > :10:12.be incredibly difficult for Labour to win these voters back, these are
:10:13. > :10:17.traditional working class, socially Conservative voters who are leaving
:10:18. > :10:21.the party, don't forget, since the 1997 general election. It is not
:10:22. > :10:26.just because of the referendum. If that was the case, Labour would
:10:27. > :10:29.become more a party of the Metropolitan areas, and less of a
:10:30. > :10:35.party outside of these area, is that what you are saying? What we are S
:10:36. > :10:40.seeing across the west can social democracy that retrenchment into the
:10:41. > :10:44.cosmopolitan, Metropolitan city area, university towns, you can
:10:45. > :10:47.seeing in many European states populist right parties filling the
:10:48. > :10:54.traditional socialist area, why are they doing that? Because they are
:10:55. > :10:58.offering two message, economic and cultural protectionism. Social
:10:59. > :11:01.Democrats are clinging to that economic protectionism but not
:11:02. > :11:05.saying much about migration and multiculturalism and that sort of
:11:06. > :11:08.stuff. Are there deeper forces at work than Jeremy Corbyn? He often
:11:09. > :11:12.gets the blame for what is happening to the Labour Party now, but if you
:11:13. > :11:20.look the way the Greek socialist party has been wiped out. The German
:11:21. > :11:23.Social Democrats are in trouble. The Italian socialist party has lost a
:11:24. > :11:28.referendum. The French socialist are coming close to being wiped out on
:11:29. > :11:33.April 23rd, Labour's problems, are part of a much wider problem of
:11:34. > :11:37.social democracy S Jeremy Corbyn is a surface problem, what I mean by
:11:38. > :11:41.that is you could replace him tosh with another leader, they would
:11:42. > :11:47.still have this fundamental tension within the electorate. They are
:11:48. > :11:50.trying to appeal to two differenter reconcilable groups of voters who
:11:51. > :11:55.think differently about the key issues of the day. It is very
:11:56. > :12:01.difficult for any centre left party now to assemble the kinds of
:12:02. > :12:05.coalitionses we saw in the '90s with Clinton and Blair and Schroeder.
:12:06. > :12:10.Those days are gone. Does that explain why it is now Labour, rather
:12:11. > :12:14.than the Conservatives, historically the party divided over the European
:12:15. > :12:20.Union, does all of that help to explain why its Labour that now
:12:21. > :12:26.seems, disunited over the EU? I think so, I think also that the
:12:27. > :12:30.issue of Brexit, and the EU, is so immatly wrapped up with that issue
:12:31. > :12:35.of immigration, if you look at who has been abandoned Labour since 2015
:12:36. > :12:40.or the late 90s, the one thing those voters share is a rejection of the
:12:41. > :12:45.so-called liberal consensus on EU membership and mass immigration. It
:12:46. > :12:49.is difficult for any Labour lead eer co-bin or Clive Lewis on Dan Jarvis,
:12:50. > :12:53.to bring those voters back unless they are going to move on that
:12:54. > :12:58.cultural terrain. If they are not, they may not go to Ukip, they might
:12:59. > :13:00.go to somewhere more difficult for Labour which is political apathy.
:13:01. > :13:03.Thank you for that. Attention now shifts to the House
:13:04. > :13:06.of Lords where peers will begin scrutinising the EU Withdrawal Bill
:13:07. > :13:08.in just over a week. Brexit Secretary David Davis urged
:13:09. > :13:11.the Lords "to do its patriotic duty" and resist the urge to tinker
:13:12. > :13:13.with the legislation. Former minister Oliver Letwin
:13:14. > :13:15.went one further - mooting the possibility
:13:16. > :13:17.of the abolition of the Lords if it sought to frustrate
:13:18. > :13:20.the bill in any way. Here he is posing the question
:13:21. > :13:28.in the Commons on Thursday. Would he find time, in government
:13:29. > :13:31.time for a debate, should the other place seek to delay beyond the end
:13:32. > :13:34.of March the passage of our accession to Article 50, for this
:13:35. > :13:37.House to discuss the possibility of either the abolition or full-scale
:13:38. > :13:47.reform of the other place? And Oliver Letwin joins
:13:48. > :14:00.me now from Dorset. Welcome back to the programme Mr Let
:14:01. > :14:04.win. Before we come on to the Lord's, can I get your thoughts on a
:14:05. > :14:08.matter that has been making the news this morning and John Bercow's
:14:09. > :14:12.remarks about being a remain voter an giving something of a running
:14:13. > :14:18.commentary on various Brexit issues, has he sqloefr stepped the mark as
:14:19. > :14:25.speaker? -- overstepped the mark. I think this is slightly a fuss about
:14:26. > :14:29.nothing. Every person who thinks about politics will have had some
:14:30. > :14:32.opinion about great matters like Brexit, and I really don't see any
:14:33. > :14:39.particular reason why his opinion shouldn't be known after the fact.
:14:40. > :14:43.I, I was there throughout the five days of the Brexit debate, and I
:14:44. > :14:48.have to say, I thought he was pretty scrupulously fair in the way he
:14:49. > :14:51.handled the House, so, I, I don't really share the view that there is
:14:52. > :14:55.some terrible thing that has been revealed this weekend. Let me come
:14:56. > :15:01.on to what we are here to talk about, which is the Lords. Why have
:15:02. > :15:06.you raised the threat of the abolition of the Lord for doing its
:15:07. > :15:14.job of scrutinising what is coming out the Commons? Well, you know,
:15:15. > :15:18.Andrew, this question of the job of the House of Lords and scrutiny, has
:15:19. > :15:23.to be looked at carefully. There are all sorts of bills that come out the
:15:24. > :15:28.House of Commons which are detailed things that relate to, finance, and
:15:29. > :15:32.expenditure, and the criminal law, and all that sort of thing, and all
:15:33. > :15:37.of that, I admire the work that the House of Lords does, as you say
:15:38. > :15:42.scrutinising and we shouldn't use that word loosely, it means looking
:15:43. > :15:48.carefully at the detail, line by line of complicated legislation,
:15:49. > :15:52.hundreds of Paps in some cases, and spotting, using the considerable
:15:53. > :15:56.expertise many, not all be many of the peers have, in any given field,
:15:57. > :16:00.to identify things where the Commons has got it wrong in the sense that
:16:01. > :16:04.the legislation wouldn't achieve what the Government of the day is
:16:05. > :16:08.seeking to make it achieve. That is a serious proper role for an Upper
:16:09. > :16:12.House and the House of Lords performs it pretty
:16:13. > :16:23.Now this is a very different case. This is a two clause bill. The first
:16:24. > :16:29.clause which is the operative clause says the Prime Minister should go
:16:30. > :16:35.ahead and sign... I understand all that. We haven't got that much time,
:16:36. > :16:42.this is becoming a monologue. There is nothing to scrutinise, Andrew.
:16:43. > :16:47.There were plenty of amendments put before the Commons, none of them got
:16:48. > :16:51.through, it is true. There are eight Labour amendments in the Lords, are
:16:52. > :16:56.you resigned to this bill coming back to the Commons with amendments?
:16:57. > :17:00.No, it should not come back with amendments. There were hundreds of
:17:01. > :17:03.amendments literally put down in the House of Commons, they were all
:17:04. > :17:08.drunk. They were all trying one way or another to derail the process.
:17:09. > :17:15.This is a binary issue, should Theresa May sign the withdrawal or
:17:16. > :17:20.not? What should the Commons do? The Commons has now voted in favour of
:17:21. > :17:29.it. Node do should tolerate and unelected chamber forcing the
:17:30. > :17:33.British people... The people voted in a referendum and the Commons
:17:34. > :17:38.voted. The matter is now signed and sealed and should not be derailed by
:17:39. > :17:43.the House of Lords. On Labour amendment wants confirmation that
:17:44. > :17:46.when it is done, the potential Brexit agreement will be put before
:17:47. > :17:51.parliament before any vote in the European Parliament, that has been
:17:52. > :17:56.an agreed principle, what is wrong with that amendments? The government
:17:57. > :18:00.has already agreed there will be a vote, but actually, what the
:18:01. > :18:05.amendments were seeking was to give the Commons a further vote on
:18:06. > :18:08.whether we actually leave or not. That is already decided. Neither the
:18:09. > :18:13.House of Lords nor anybody else has a right in my view, despite the fact
:18:14. > :18:19.I was a remain, to what the will of the British people. Nobody should
:18:20. > :18:23.think an unelected chamber should now try to change the course of
:18:24. > :18:28.British history by asserting amendments in a very effective on
:18:29. > :18:31.clause bill which says go ahead and trigger Article 50. Are you
:18:32. > :18:35.concerned that amendments by the Lords which would then have to go
:18:36. > :18:42.back to the Commons for consideration, are you concerned
:18:43. > :18:47.that could derail or delay the Prime Minister's timetable for Article 50?
:18:48. > :18:51.Yes, exactly. That would be the result of a prolonged bout of
:18:52. > :18:55.ping-pong between the two houses, or much worse, if the House of Lords
:18:56. > :19:00.failed to give way and the Parliament act had to be used. It
:19:01. > :19:03.would really be intolerable. It is not good for our country. Those of
:19:04. > :19:09.us who voted remain would prefer for that not to happen. The whole
:19:10. > :19:14.country -- it is important for the whole country that this happens in a
:19:15. > :19:19.rapid way and allowing the government free rein to negotiate,
:19:20. > :19:22.that is surely in all our advantages? Deed think any efforts
:19:23. > :19:27.to abolish the House of Lords, an issue you have raised, does that
:19:28. > :19:35.make it easier because your friend David Cameron stuffed the upper
:19:36. > :19:39.chamber with donors, lapdogs and lingerie designers? I was among
:19:40. > :19:43.those who advocated for many years wholesale reform of the House of
:19:44. > :19:47.Lords, to turn it into a serious elected second chamber. I think we
:19:48. > :19:52.should have an upper house which commands legitimacy. This is a
:19:53. > :19:57.second issue. Here we have not got such a House and it seems to be very
:19:58. > :20:01.clear that it should not seek to derail on delay the action which has
:20:02. > :20:06.been mandated by the referendum, agreed by the House of Commons, and
:20:07. > :20:11.what we want to see now is a smooth orderly effect for this bill, so it
:20:12. > :20:16.becomes law and Theresa May can go ahead and negotiate on our behalf.
:20:17. > :20:19.One more question on the process, if the Lords to amend the bill and it
:20:20. > :20:25.goes back to the Commons and the Commons sends these amendments back
:20:26. > :20:32.again, take them out, how long could this ping-pong between the two
:20:33. > :20:37.chambers go on in your experience? It is a very, very interesting and
:20:38. > :20:41.complicated question with the clerks of the two ends of the Palace of
:20:42. > :20:46.Westminster not always agreeing about this. But through certain
:20:47. > :20:50.machinations of slightly changing amendments as they go, in my
:20:51. > :20:53.experience this could carry on for an awful long time if clever people,
:20:54. > :20:56.and there are plenty of clever people in the House of Lords, want
:20:57. > :21:01.to do that and that is precisely why I think we should not tolerate it.
:21:02. > :21:04.Oliver Letwin, thank you for joining us from Dorset.
:21:05. > :21:08.Joining me now is Labour's Leader in the House of Lords, Angela Smith.
:21:09. > :21:14.The Commons passed this bill without any amendments... There were
:21:15. > :21:20.changes, the government did concede a couple of points. But the
:21:21. > :21:24.amendments did not go through. Does that put pressure on the Lords to do
:21:25. > :21:28.the same? I think the Lords always feels under pressure to do the right
:21:29. > :21:34.thing. When I heard Oliver Letwin, I did not know whether to laugh or
:21:35. > :21:40.cry. We will not frustrate, we will not wreck, we will not sabotage. We
:21:41. > :21:44.will do what David Davis said was our patriotic duty. We will
:21:45. > :21:48.scrutinise the bill. We have at amendments from the Labour Party. We
:21:49. > :21:51.will look at those. It depends on the government response if we vote
:21:52. > :21:56.on those. There could be amendments asking the Commons to look again.
:21:57. > :22:01.That is normally what we do. It is not the wrong thing to do. But if
:22:02. > :22:06.you do this and make amendments, it then goes back to the Commons. If
:22:07. > :22:10.the Commons rejects the Lords' amendments, what do you think will
:22:11. > :22:16.happen? I do not see any extended ping-pong at all. It is perfectly
:22:17. > :22:20.legitimate. We are not talking about the outcome of negotiations, we are
:22:21. > :22:24.talking about the process. The process of engaging with Parliament
:22:25. > :22:27.and reporting to Parliament. It would be totally responsible for
:22:28. > :22:30.Parliament to say, off you go, Theresa May, have two years of
:22:31. > :22:34.negotiation and come back and talk to us at the end. The has to be a
:22:35. > :22:39.process where the government can use the expertise of parliament to get
:22:40. > :22:45.this right. But if you do put in some amendments, it has to go back
:22:46. > :22:48.to the Commons, they may well say they don't want those amendments and
:22:49. > :22:53.it may go back to the Lords, could that at the very least delay the
:22:54. > :22:58.Prime Minister's Brexit timetable? I don't think so. She said the end of
:22:59. > :23:02.March. Time has been built in for all the normal processes. I think
:23:03. > :23:05.Oliver Letwin and others are getting a bit overexcited. This is the
:23:06. > :23:09.normal process. Unless the government get things right the
:23:10. > :23:14.first time every time, the has to be this kind of process. These are
:23:15. > :23:18.reasonable amendments. This is a Labour amendment we are talking
:23:19. > :23:32.about here, you want a vote in the UK Parliament before any
:23:33. > :23:36.vote in the European Parliament if and when the Brexit deal is done,
:23:37. > :23:38.the Commons and the Lords get to vote on it first. But the government
:23:39. > :23:42.I think have already agreed to that so what is the point? It needs to be
:23:43. > :23:45.on the face of the bill. It is over well if the government have agreed
:23:46. > :23:49.it. Lord dubs had an agreement about child and look what happened to
:23:50. > :23:54.that. Does not sound as if you would go to the wire on that? It is
:23:55. > :23:59.important it is not just about the vote at the end, you have the
:24:00. > :24:04.ongoing engagement. If it is going to be a bad deal, we need to know
:24:05. > :24:10.long before we get to that stage? Is it something you would hold out for?
:24:11. > :24:15.I don't know yet. It is about how the House of Lords votes, Labour do
:24:16. > :24:18.not have a majority, we never had a majority in the House of Lords when
:24:19. > :24:23.we were in government. It is wrong to suggest that we cannot debate
:24:24. > :24:30.these issues... I don't think anyone is suggesting that. They are. It is
:24:31. > :24:33.not unfair to ask the government to ask the House of Commons to look
:24:34. > :24:37.again to look at those issues if that is what the House of Lords
:24:38. > :24:42.decides. Bit of the House of Commons says we looked, we are sticking with
:24:43. > :24:46.what we voted for, we rejected every amendment by at least 30 votes on
:24:47. > :24:51.all occasions, the Lords then have to buckle, is that what you are
:24:52. > :24:55.saying? Some point I think it is clear the House of Commons have to
:24:56. > :24:59.have its say. I think it is inconceivable that having had a
:25:00. > :25:04.referendum, which was not overwhelming, but it was a clear
:25:05. > :25:06.result, the House of Lords has no intention of sabotaging that but
:25:07. > :25:11.there are things which are not good about the process that we think
:25:12. > :25:15.could be improved. We have not just have the result of the referendum
:25:16. > :25:21.which voted to leave, but we have had the will of the Commons that
:25:22. > :25:27.passed this legislation by a majority of 372. And I am not
:25:28. > :25:32.contesting that for a second! Could you cite a precedent for the upper
:25:33. > :25:36.house amending a bill which passed by 372 votes in the Commons? Quite
:25:37. > :25:39.other things will come to the House of Lords with big majorities from
:25:40. > :25:43.the Commons and quite often the amendments we get, with that then
:25:44. > :25:49.forward and the government sees it could do better. Though not
:25:50. > :25:52.necessarily saying the government has got things wrong, but they could
:25:53. > :25:57.do things better. That happens time and time again and it is not
:25:58. > :26:02.unusual. If you were seen to thwart the referendum result and the vote
:26:03. > :26:07.in the Commons, the elected chamber of parliament, is the threat of
:26:08. > :26:10.abolition hanging over you? I think that is really ridiculous and
:26:11. > :26:13.absolute nonsense. We are not tying to what the decision of the House of
:26:14. > :26:18.Commons, we are trying to do better. It is a bit rich of the government
:26:19. > :26:22.and Oliver Letwin to complain about getting things through in time when
:26:23. > :26:27.the House of Commons spent -- the government spent three months trying
:26:28. > :26:30.to debate this issue. There have been some strong questions put to
:26:31. > :26:34.the government from the House of Lords on all sides. I don't know if
:26:35. > :26:43.the amendments have been passed or not. I think we have a good case for
:26:44. > :26:50.the government to get debate the point. If a traditional MP like
:26:51. > :26:54.Oliver Letwin is calling for the abolition of the hereditary and
:26:55. > :26:58.appointed chamber, and the Labour person like yourself was trying to
:26:59. > :27:03.defend that, that would not be a sustainable position, I would
:27:04. > :27:06.suggest! We saw this with the Strathclyde report as well, this is
:27:07. > :27:09.a government like no other. It is the first Conservative government in
:27:10. > :27:14.history not to have an automatic majority. They do not like challenge
:27:15. > :27:20.or scrutiny. But you get my point, Labour cannot go to the wire in
:27:21. > :27:22.defending and an elected second chamber, can it? Actually, Labour
:27:23. > :27:26.can go to the wire in saying the government does not get it right
:27:27. > :27:33.every time. House of Lords is going to normal processes and people like
:27:34. > :27:36.Oliver Letwin are really getting a little bit over excited, and people
:27:37. > :27:43.who have been anonymously briefing. Who has been anonymously briefing? I
:27:44. > :27:46.don't know, they are anonymous! I understand people want to make
:27:47. > :27:50.amendments, that is the role of the House of Lords, but can I just for
:27:51. > :27:54.the avoidance of doubt, is it still your case that whatever amendments
:27:55. > :28:00.to make, whatever may go back and forward, it is not your intention to
:28:01. > :28:05.stop Article 50 being triggered by the end of March? I have been saying
:28:06. > :28:08.that, exactly that for months and months and months. It is
:28:09. > :28:12.inconceivable that an unelected House will thwart the will of the
:28:13. > :28:15.House of Commons and a referendum on this issue. But that does not mean
:28:16. > :28:20.we will be bullied by Oliver Letwin and others. But the triggering will
:28:21. > :28:26.happen by the end of March? I very much suspect so unless Theresa May
:28:27. > :28:29.has second thoughts, I suspect that will happen. Thank you.
:28:30. > :28:31.Now, just because it's parliamentary recess next week
:28:32. > :28:35.There are two by-elections round the corner -
:28:36. > :28:37.one in Copeland, and another in Stoke-on-Trent Central
:28:38. > :28:38.where the former Shadow Education Secretary,
:28:39. > :28:40.Tristram Hunt, vacated his seat to take up a role
:28:41. > :28:44.as Director of the Victoria Albert Museum in London.
:28:45. > :28:46.But Labour are facing a fight to hold onto the constituency
:28:47. > :28:52.Seconds away, Ukip's new leader has stepped into the ring
:28:53. > :28:55.as their candidate in a by-election bout to see
:28:56. > :29:02.At the last election Ukip came second to Labour here
:29:03. > :29:07.But now they are confident they can land a knockout blow,
:29:08. > :29:13.because this place is packed with people that voted to leave the EU.
:29:14. > :29:17.70% of people voted to leave the European Union.
:29:18. > :29:24.I'm the only candidate standing in this election
:29:25. > :29:27.who is a true Brexiteer, who has always campaigned to leave
:29:28. > :29:30.the EU and therefore I believe I would be the best person
:29:31. > :29:33.But he has had to fight off allegations
:29:34. > :29:35.he wasn't living in the constituency when he entered the contest.
:29:36. > :29:39.Explain to me what is going on with this issue about your house?
:29:40. > :29:41.Well, we took up the lease the day before nominations.
:29:42. > :29:43.Everything we've done is perfectly legal and within the law.
:29:44. > :29:49.The Labour Party are trying to get off the real issues in this election
:29:50. > :29:56.and focus on something which is banal nonsense.
:29:57. > :30:01.And there's been trouble as well for the Labour contender.
:30:02. > :30:04.He's been labelled a Remoaner after he sent a series
:30:05. > :30:06.of anti-Brexit tweets, filled with words
:30:07. > :30:17.I can't believe I'm about to ask this question in a nursery
:30:18. > :30:20.on a Sunday morning TV programme, but did you really tweet that
:30:21. > :30:24.I tweeted many things about Brexit, that's tweet is out there.
:30:25. > :30:27.It was done quite after the referendum result and it
:30:28. > :30:30.was my way of showing my frustration at the fact that months
:30:31. > :30:35.after the result we hadn't had anything from the government.
:30:36. > :30:37.Theresa May had failed to produce any plan,
:30:38. > :30:39.she had failed to give any meaningful statement
:30:40. > :30:41.about what Brexit meant other than bland statements
:30:42. > :30:44.about Brexit is Brexit, and it's a hard Brexit, or a soft Brexit.
:30:45. > :30:48.The context of it was it was out of frustration.
:30:49. > :30:52.So you didn't mean to insult the 70% of the people who live here
:30:53. > :30:55.I never mean to insult anybody and you know,
:30:56. > :30:57.I've made it quite clear, if I'm elected as the member
:30:58. > :31:00.of Parliament for Stoke-on-Trent Central, I will absolutely respect
:31:01. > :31:01.the wishes of the people of Stoke Central.
:31:02. > :31:06.I will make sure my vote in parliament is to trigger Article 50.
:31:07. > :31:08.While the Tories' man has done little bit of rebranding too.
:31:09. > :31:11.I voted Remain and I've been open about that, but my top priority
:31:12. > :31:14.is about the economy and to ensure we still have an
:31:15. > :31:18.Theresa May has set out clear proposal to ensure we develop
:31:19. > :31:28.a trade relationship with Europe and make that a success.
:31:29. > :31:31.It means the Lib Dems and the Greens are the ones battling Brexit.
:31:32. > :31:33.Well, when the Lib Dem candidate is actually here.
:31:34. > :31:39.The candidate is a consultant cardiologist.
:31:40. > :31:42.He is actually at work today doing very important heart surgery.
:31:43. > :31:44.He will be back tomorrow, back on the campaign trail working hard.
:31:45. > :31:48.30% of people voted to Remain and nobody else
:31:49. > :31:52.is representing them, so, you know, it is still a live issue.
:31:53. > :31:54.It is still something people care about.
:31:55. > :31:56.We are only at the start of the Article 50 process
:31:57. > :32:02.We are very a clear that we are standing up for those
:32:03. > :32:05.who want to remain in the single market, who want to protect jobs
:32:06. > :32:09.Labour have taken people for granted in this area for a great many years.
:32:10. > :32:12.Ukip, I'm afraid, all Ukip can offer to politics is division.
:32:13. > :32:15.I've covered a lot of by-elections where Ukip have come second.
:32:16. > :32:18.We'll find out if they really got Labour on the ropes this
:32:19. > :32:37.And here is a full list of all the candidates standing
:32:38. > :32:48.in the Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election.
:32:49. > :32:57.They do atract lots of candidates. You can get that on the BBC website
:32:58. > :33:05.as well. I was trying to think back, here we have the main opposition
:33:06. > :33:07.party defending two seats in by-elections in the midterm of a
:33:08. > :33:14.government. All the speculation is where the
:33:15. > :33:19.opposition party can hold on, that is unprecedented. I can't give of an
:33:20. > :33:25.equivalent. You wouldn't just expect them to win seats they have held
:33:26. > :33:31.traditionally, you would expect hem to make inroads into seats held by
:33:32. > :33:35.the other party, I wonder if they fail to hold on to just one of
:33:36. > :33:40.these, whether it accelerates the momentum and criticism of the
:33:41. > :33:44.leadership of the moment. I think they are interesting constituencies.
:33:45. > :33:50.Matthew good win was talking about the left win coalition over the
:33:51. > :33:57.years, almost being too broad for its own good, including places like
:33:58. > :34:02.Primrose Hill and Hackney. Big university towns in Manchester,
:34:03. > :34:11.Bristol. Diverse ethnically and included places like Stoke which are
:34:12. > :34:16.more Conservative. With a small c. Less economically well-off, more
:34:17. > :34:20.diverse, can the left hang on to both bits of country. Recent
:34:21. > :34:24.evidence suggests it cannot and the opportunity for Ukip is to pick up
:34:25. > :34:28.the second of those two types of community, the Stokes and the cope
:34:29. > :34:31.lands. That what makes the by-elections interest I would
:34:32. > :34:36.suggest. It is not just about Mr Corbyn's future about which we hear
:34:37. > :34:40.too much, it is about this traditional Labour coalition, can it
:34:41. > :34:45.still survive, particularly in places like Stoke? Europe clearly is
:34:46. > :34:52.a test. I think it's a myth by the way that Labour are only split now,
:34:53. > :34:56.over Europe and it has always been a Tory problem, last time I was on I
:34:57. > :35:03.mentioned it. That is why we had a referendum in 75. That is why they
:35:04. > :35:08.had a round then. But they were in chaos behind the scenes over what
:35:09. > :35:13.they thought about the euro, skillful leadership can paper over
:35:14. > :35:17.the cracks, and to address the wider issue of whether we are now in an
:35:18. > :35:22.era where left right issues have disappeared, and there is more of a
:35:23. > :35:29.regional divide, if you take Europe out of the equation which you can't,
:35:30. > :35:33.but if you were able to, issues about health, transport housing do
:35:34. > :35:38.split more left-right than a regional divide, so I think there is
:35:39. > :35:44.still fundamental left-right issues, but Europe isn't one of them and
:35:45. > :35:47.Europe has to be managed by a Labour leader skill fully and evidently
:35:48. > :35:52.that hasn't happened now. How would you see the by-elections in the
:35:53. > :35:57.current political context? Labour should be walking them, it should be
:35:58. > :35:59.a sign of the March of the Labour Party taking on the current
:36:00. > :36:03.Conservative Government. I don't think they raise any questions about
:36:04. > :36:06.Corbyn's leadership because the people who put him in don't think
:36:07. > :36:12.that winning elections matter, you have to remember this will be the
:36:13. > :36:16.mainstream media, it will be our fault why any of those Labour
:36:17. > :36:20.candidates don't win, the thing that is interesting is whether there is
:36:21. > :36:23.is a role for Ukip. The argument after the referendum was Ukip has
:36:24. > :36:29.done its job, it got the referendum, nothing to see here, I remember
:36:30. > :36:30.speaking to put a Nuttall before he was
:36:31. > :36:33.speaking to put a Nuttall before he speaking to put a Nuttall before he
:36:34. > :36:38.was Ukip leader, on the day after the battle and he said this is Year
:36:39. > :36:42.Zero, where Ukip starts now, and this, and this is the interesting
:36:43. > :36:46.thing, does, do we see this one particular party having a role in
:36:47. > :36:50.the future? And I think it is all to play for, they could not not have
:36:51. > :36:54.stood in this seat. They have to win it to be an electoral force. The
:36:55. > :36:58.Labour candidate in Copeland has made the NHS the issue for her in
:36:59. > :37:04.this, that goes into the left-right, are we spending enough, are we not?
:37:05. > :37:08.That will be a test of what you were saying to see if traditional
:37:09. > :37:11.left-right issue, which at the moment would play Labour's way I
:37:12. > :37:15.would suggest, are big enough to overcome all the things you have
:37:16. > :37:18.been talking about and Matthew has been talking about. Maybe at this
:37:19. > :37:24.particular junction they are not, but I don't think any of those
:37:25. > :37:30.issues will go away, and that is why I question whether we are see the
:37:31. > :37:34.end of a historic left-right divide. At the moment with Europe so
:37:35. > :37:38.prominent, clearly these by-elections are unusual. And they
:37:39. > :37:41.will be a test of leadership for Theresa May in the coming months if
:37:42. > :37:45.not at the moment, as they have been in a way that he hasn't risen to,
:37:46. > :37:49.for the Labour leader. We will be leave on BBC One on the
:37:50. > :37:53.night, February 23rd off back of this week, we will bring you the
:37:54. > :37:54.result of both these crucial by-elections.
:37:55. > :38:06.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:07. > :38:08.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.
:38:09. > :38:11.The campaigns have been launched and the gloves are off.
:38:12. > :38:13.In this extended programme, we'll hear from the
:38:14. > :38:16.Ulster Unionist leader, Mike Nesbitt, and SDLP
:38:17. > :38:29.Has social media made the candidate mug shot on a lamp post redundant?
:38:30. > :38:36.People know anyway without the posters. They don't need the
:38:37. > :38:39.pollsters. They have been doing this for years since I was a girl, it
:38:40. > :38:41.must have some effect on people. And with their thoughts
:38:42. > :38:44.on all of the above and much more, my guests of the day are columist
:38:45. > :38:46.Fionnuala O Connor and the political editor
:38:47. > :38:50.of the News Letter Sam McBride. They've formed an opposition
:38:51. > :38:53.together, spoken of their great working relationship and now
:38:54. > :38:55.want to convince the electorate that they can do a better job
:38:56. > :38:58.in Government than the DUP and But both the leader of the UUP
:38:59. > :39:02.and the SDLP need to boost their election fortunes
:39:03. > :39:05.on March 2nd. In a moment, I'll be asking
:39:06. > :39:08.Colum Eastwood how all his talk of co-operation and compromise
:39:09. > :39:10.with the Ulster Unionists is going But first, I'm joined
:39:11. > :39:25.by Mike Nesbitt. Welcome to the programme. You are
:39:26. > :39:29.running 24 candidates, you have said you are confident and can come out
:39:30. > :39:37.as the lead Unionist party. How many of those 24 seat candy when? Nearly
:39:38. > :39:42.all of them. We look carefully at last May and realise we need some
:39:43. > :39:44.tactical errors and running too many candidates and probably knocked
:39:45. > :39:49.ourselves out in a couple of constituencies. We have done the
:39:50. > :39:54.strategy and thought very hard about it and we have just enough to get
:39:55. > :39:59.there this time. When you see nearly all of them, what does that mean? We
:40:00. > :40:04.have a strategy and was too weak till the election and you wouldn't
:40:05. > :40:08.expect me to put the strategy out on the table. We have thought about
:40:09. > :40:13.this very hard and we are confident if people react in the way we expect
:40:14. > :40:17.them to react, we will do well. When I say react in the way we expect
:40:18. > :40:22.them to react, this will be a test of how mature a democracy we are. In
:40:23. > :40:25.what I would call in normal democracy, people would go to the
:40:26. > :40:29.polls and Xavier going to reward the Government because I like what they
:40:30. > :40:33.have done or I am going to punish them and give the opposition a
:40:34. > :40:37.chance. This is the first time since 98 they have that opportunity to
:40:38. > :40:42.give the opposition a deterrent. You say he would when nearly all of
:40:43. > :40:47.them, although you did put number on the last time. Are you going to do
:40:48. > :40:52.the envelope check? I have an envelope here. I am happy to give it
:40:53. > :40:56.to you. You don't want to do that again. You got your fingers badly
:40:57. > :41:02.burned last time. You said you would when 8919 and ended up with 16 which
:41:03. > :41:08.is what you had the time before. You ran 33 candidates and 116 seats,
:41:09. > :41:14.less than 50% strike rate. Seriously, you expect this time to
:41:15. > :41:20.run 24 and when all of them are? The environment is different. People are
:41:21. > :41:24.angry. They understand the RHI anyway they didn't understand react
:41:25. > :41:30.to red sky or any of the previous scandals. This is ?85,000 today it
:41:31. > :41:35.needlessly going up in smoke as it did yesterday and will do tomorrow
:41:36. > :41:38.and tomorrow and tomorrow. On the doorsteps, I was expecting apathy
:41:39. > :41:43.and I'm not getting very much. I am getting more anger than I had sense
:41:44. > :41:51.I would get. Let's remember what I did EU PCN? Vote for us so you get
:41:52. > :41:54.them in the First Minister's office. Those who could have voted last time
:41:55. > :41:58.did not vote and we can assume they do not care who was the First
:41:59. > :42:05.Minister but they do care about 85 grand a day up in smoke. The care
:42:06. > :42:12.about money for education, the social investment fund. The DUP and
:42:13. > :42:15.Sinn Fein said the plan to spend 80 million tackling poverty over a
:42:16. > :42:20.three-year period and they spent less than five. What extra support
:42:21. > :42:25.is going to come from the people who didn't vote last time rather than
:42:26. > :42:32.from do you people chose? Last May, your party secured 87,001st
:42:33. > :42:37.preference votes, 12.6% but the DUP 200 and 2000. That is almost 150%
:42:38. > :42:42.more than you. I am not saying it's only coming from the 45% who didn't
:42:43. > :42:46.vote last time but it is clear is significant number of those people
:42:47. > :42:51.are angry enough to have registered or sent to media going to vote.
:42:52. > :42:54.There are people who weren't registered you are registering. It
:42:55. > :42:59.is like a confessional on the doorstep. You knock the door,
:43:00. > :43:05.somebody goes, yet, I have been voting DUP. Are they going to switch
:43:06. > :43:10.to the Ulster Unionist Party huge numbers? That's what I'm being told
:43:11. > :43:15.on their own doorsteps. You think that will hold and on March two,
:43:16. > :43:19.more people are going to vote and also people who voted DUP will
:43:20. > :43:24.switch allegiance to the Ulster Unionist Party? With two and a half
:43:25. > :43:30.weeks to go, it is positive for the UUP and that the SDLP. But there are
:43:31. > :43:37.two and a half weeks to go. You are running 24 candidates, the DUP
:43:38. > :43:40.running need to win every seat and the DUP me to have a meltdown for
:43:41. > :43:43.you to overtake that party and become the pre-eminent party of
:43:44. > :43:47.unionism. You accept is a huge mountain to climb. It would be
:43:48. > :43:54.unprecedented in Northern Ireland. Every action and the anger to the
:43:55. > :43:58.RHI is unprecedented. Since the last election, we have had Brexit and we
:43:59. > :44:02.have had Donald Trump. Unusual things and unexpected things are
:44:03. > :44:08.happening in the polling booth. You sit at your party conference last
:44:09. > :44:13.summer, vote might you get Colum, but Colum and you get Mike. How hard
:44:14. > :44:17.are you selling that on the doorsteps? I don't have to sell it
:44:18. > :44:22.because people get it and wanted. We have had 19 years of dysfunctional
:44:23. > :44:27.relationships in Stormont Castle. The DUP Sinn Fein have been there
:44:28. > :44:32.for ten years. Let me go back further and acknowledge back in 98,
:44:33. > :44:37.the relationship was not as good as it might have been. The recent
:44:38. > :44:41.relationships between Arlene Foster and Martin McGuinness, Peter
:44:42. > :44:44.Robinson and Martin McGuinness were not fantastic. I think people are
:44:45. > :44:47.noticing there are quite nostalgic about the relationship between Ian
:44:48. > :44:51.Paisley and Martin McGuinness, the chuckle Brothers. If you asked what
:44:52. > :44:55.they achieved in terms of job creation or shortening waiting lists
:44:56. > :44:58.in the NHS, I don't think anybody could tell you that the achieved
:44:59. > :45:02.anything but what they did was they showed a willingness to work
:45:03. > :45:07.together and people like that. They want it again and they would get it
:45:08. > :45:09.from me and Colum. We will be willing partners and we will not
:45:10. > :45:13.share the space of the Stormont Castle simply because the law says
:45:14. > :45:17.we have too. We will do it because we want to share space and with it
:45:18. > :45:21.the power and responsibility that goes with showing that space. You
:45:22. > :45:25.have got to sell that relationship on the doorstep of its going to
:45:26. > :45:33.work. You said previously in October if the opposition is going to offer
:45:34. > :45:39.an add-on to to the current DUP Sinn Fein Government. The DUP your
:45:40. > :45:43.opponents, the Sinn Fein are your opponents, you have got to sing that
:45:44. > :45:47.from the rooftops. You have got to say vote UUP first and then
:45:48. > :45:56.transferred to the SDLP. Are you saying that? If you don't vote
:45:57. > :46:01.darling, you get Martin McGuinness. -- Arlene Foster. I haven't heard
:46:02. > :46:06.you say vote for the Ulster Unionist Party and then give you a second
:46:07. > :46:09.reference as SDLP. I am seeing vote for UUP and then vote for any
:46:10. > :46:16.candidate you trust will deliver for your community and for this country.
:46:17. > :46:20.Not specifically the SDLP? Your Mac not specifically. Is that not a
:46:21. > :46:24.mistake? How can you sit there and see this but you are not prepared to
:46:25. > :46:30.clarify that the voters and say vote with the UUP and then vote for SDLP?
:46:31. > :46:38.No one party has a monopoly of all the best candidates. Colum Eastwood
:46:39. > :46:47.doesn't have a monopoly on good candidates? There is no logic to
:46:48. > :46:52.what you are suggesting. What I am saying is people are going into a PR
:46:53. > :46:58.election, they are going to cast their vote, one to seven and that
:46:59. > :47:02.will go beyond the UUP and the SDLP and I am saying you should vote for
:47:03. > :47:06.any candidate you trust will do the right thing for your community and
:47:07. > :47:12.constituency and for Northern Ireland. They hired a preference the
:47:13. > :47:15.more power the transfer has. If you want to get as many Ulster Unionist
:47:16. > :47:21.Party is returned and Colum Eastwood to get as many SDLP candidates
:47:22. > :47:24.returned as possible so you can be serious chance of moving into
:47:25. > :47:29.Stormont Castle, you need to be encouraging UUP voters to vote for
:47:30. > :47:32.the SDLP, not leaving it open ended otherwise it looks like a bogus
:47:33. > :47:37.offering. It looks like you don't have the courage of your own
:47:38. > :47:41.convictions really stand square behind the notion of an alternative
:47:42. > :47:45.Government. I will be standing square behind that notion and
:47:46. > :47:53.transferring from my UUP votes to the SDLP. You personally well? Hill
:47:54. > :47:58.I don't think we should be talking about constituencies. In your
:47:59. > :48:02.constituency you will vote UUP and then SDLP? Yes. But you will go as
:48:03. > :48:11.far to see other Ulster Unionist Party should do the same thing? Your
:48:12. > :48:16.premise for being in a Government actually is shot in the fruit. It is
:48:17. > :48:21.not shot in a fit. I understand UUP voters you don't like being told
:48:22. > :48:25.what to do or like vote management where it is situation where we want
:48:26. > :48:29.you to vote for this UUP first and the other UUP second because we've
:48:30. > :48:34.got a vote management plan in operation. You don't think that's
:48:35. > :48:41.confusing? I am very happy. It's not that you want DUP transfers and
:48:42. > :48:46.certain constituencies. Your Mac one of the last transfers was a man who
:48:47. > :48:49.stood up and made it clear it would be very difficult for them over the
:48:50. > :48:57.last ten years because they didn't even want to share power with Sinn
:48:58. > :49:00.Fein. I am saying and offering something different willingly going
:49:01. > :49:04.into partnership with the party of National is because it's the right
:49:05. > :49:07.thing to do and it is the only way to make Northern Ireland work and
:49:08. > :49:11.you will hear Colum Eastwood saying he wants to make Northern Ireland
:49:12. > :49:16.work and we measured in the same way and if you want one word to sum it
:49:17. > :49:21.up at his prosperity, economic prosperity and mental health and
:49:22. > :49:26.well-being. That is what you talked about a lot and you have during the
:49:27. > :49:32.campaign. There are differences between you and the SDLP on Brexit,
:49:33. > :49:35.on the Irish language, on legacy. Last week you indicated you think
:49:36. > :49:40.James Brokenshire is the man to chair talks but Colum Eastwood has
:49:41. > :49:47.made it clear he is not an honest broker. Yaha everyone has made it
:49:48. > :49:51.clear after the election will have to be a negotiation, talking about a
:49:52. > :49:56.very long and detailed settlement. What this is about in my mind is our
:49:57. > :50:00.away a proper democracy and if we are people who go to vote on the 2nd
:50:01. > :50:05.of March will treat it as a referendum and how the two parties
:50:06. > :50:10.at Stormont Castle have handled the RHI Tobacco more generally ten years
:50:11. > :50:16.of Government is either led by the DUP Sinn Fein and existing
:50:17. > :50:22.exclusively of those two parties. What about the Irish Language Act?
:50:23. > :50:27.There is a clear gap between Europe future of an Irish Language Act
:50:28. > :50:32.specifically and Colum's. He thinks there needs to be comic you are not
:50:33. > :50:35.so convinced. You making difficult for him when he is trying to
:50:36. > :50:41.persuade Nationalist voters to back his candidates and not Sinn Fein.
:50:42. > :50:46.Clear gaps in the challenge. That is the challenge of a devolved
:50:47. > :50:50.Government. Managing clear gaps. The way to begin is look for areas where
:50:51. > :50:56.you agree and we and we agree we need to make Northern Ireland work.
:50:57. > :51:00.The Irish language, I have no difficulty with people who want to
:51:01. > :51:04.speak it, learn it, promote it, cherish it, it is part of culture
:51:05. > :51:12.and I consider myself to be Irish as well as British. Nobody has told me
:51:13. > :51:16.why we need an Irish Language Act. In those days when you were cooling
:51:17. > :51:20.your heels during the talks at Stormont Castle, I asked Sinn Fein
:51:21. > :51:23.particularly on occasions come and tell me why you want an Irish
:51:24. > :51:31.Language Act and they never did which makes me quite suspicious. I
:51:32. > :51:33.have been to the Irish language school, met Irish language groups so
:51:34. > :51:38.I am building understanding of what they want and what they want
:51:39. > :51:42.primarily is respect but nobody has persuaded me that it needs to be an
:51:43. > :51:46.act to advance what they want to advance. There is a legal challenge
:51:47. > :51:49.at the moment on his strategy and there is a legal obligation to bring
:51:50. > :51:56.forward a strategy, if we are in power we will meet our obligations.
:51:57. > :51:59.Do you want to see the ATT return to complete its job? You didn't think
:52:00. > :52:03.it was given an opportunity to finish what it started? Your Mac I
:52:04. > :52:10.can't do this. Dealing with the past can't be done that way. If you
:52:11. > :52:14.did... If it wasn't finished by now, it would be close to it rather than
:52:15. > :52:19.as set in your potentially looking for a new set of processes which,
:52:20. > :52:23.when the begin, will take another ten years. My children could be
:52:24. > :52:28.grandparents before this is all finished. Even though they were a
:52:29. > :52:30.major criticisms of the H E T? Yaha which is why said it needed to be
:52:31. > :52:34.reformed. Thank you for joining us. Let's hear what my guests
:52:35. > :52:49.of the day, Fionnuala O Connor What what do you make of the
:52:50. > :52:54.partnership approach on paper at least, between the Ulster Unionist
:52:55. > :52:57.Party and the SDLP? It is a lovely idea and ideally it will work,
:52:58. > :53:06.whether it will work for either of them in the selection is... The
:53:07. > :53:13.circumstances are always wishful thinking and that is what it is.
:53:14. > :53:18.There is the basic dichotomy of Colum and Mike Nesbitt wanting in
:53:19. > :53:24.the end something which is a different end for politics in
:53:25. > :53:29.Northern Ireland. They are taking the soft gentle approach of, let's
:53:30. > :53:35.work together and let's not talk about the differences or as Mike
:53:36. > :53:39.puts it, the gaps, clear gaps, those are the challenge. The Irish
:53:40. > :53:45.language that you honed in on at the end is the main one. Mike Nesbitt
:53:46. > :53:49.says I have every respect for people who speak it, it is part of me as
:53:50. > :53:53.well, but you can't have what you say you want for it. He says Sinn
:53:54. > :54:00.Fein couldn't explain to them why they needed an Irish Language Act. I
:54:01. > :54:04.doubt anybody in the enterprise as he talked to didn't say they wanted
:54:05. > :54:08.an Irish Language Act because they do because they cannot trust the DUP
:54:09. > :54:14.Government to give the Irish language respect. That is the basic
:54:15. > :54:17.reason. Let's talk about the electrical -- electoral challenge
:54:18. > :54:22.Mike Nesbitt has here turnaround from the disappointment he had last
:54:23. > :54:28.May. He says he is hoping to win 24 comment nearly all of the 24 seats.
:54:29. > :54:34.If he does that goes from 16 to 24. A 50% increase, a huge ask. Last
:54:35. > :54:37.time he was predicting a 20% uplift and got nothing. If it happens it is
:54:38. > :54:42.the story of the election and it is pretty unlikely. We are in a pretty
:54:43. > :54:47.unusual situations in terms of the level of anger about the RHI
:54:48. > :54:51.situation. This election is an opportunity and risk for Mike
:54:52. > :54:55.Nesbitt. He has been leader for long enough now where he has created the
:54:56. > :55:00.party and his image are in opposition with the SDLP. He has a
:55:01. > :55:05.clear vision he has articulated of actually putting number two for the
:55:06. > :55:09.SDLP after UUP candidates. That is a very significant thing for a
:55:10. > :55:12.Unionist leader to see possibly without President in history of
:55:13. > :55:19.Northern Ireland. He has said he will do that in his constituency.
:55:20. > :55:23.But he has not specifically told Ulster Unionist Party that it's --
:55:24. > :55:28.voters they should follow his example? There is a mixed message.
:55:29. > :55:34.The more significant thing is as a Unionist leader is not saying
:55:35. > :55:39.transfer to other. I think if that works, he will take the credit for
:55:40. > :55:44.it, if it doesn't as happened last time the Ulster Unionist Party 's
:55:45. > :55:48.level of opportunity in 2010 after the Robinson scandal, after that
:55:49. > :55:50.election where they were expected to make big breakthroughs, the didn't
:55:51. > :55:51.and the leader paid the price. Now, elections usually mean
:55:52. > :55:54.lamp-posts plastered with the beaming faces of those
:55:55. > :55:56.on the hunt for your vote. But in Lagan Valley, the candidates
:55:57. > :55:59.have agreed not to put up We visited the constituency,
:56:00. > :56:02.and one alongside it, to see if the voters feel
:56:03. > :56:40.it makes a difference. I think the posters need to go up to
:56:41. > :56:44.get it into people's mind to who they are voting for. Lagan Valley I
:56:45. > :56:49.take no notice, I have no interest, it is a waste of time. We have been
:56:50. > :56:57.doing this for years, even since I was little. I think a lot of social
:56:58. > :57:03.media and people's opinions formed elsewhere and is quite nice to have
:57:04. > :57:08.a social area that hasn't got bombarded messages about political
:57:09. > :57:15.agendas. Lagan Valley if you want to go, you need posters up so people
:57:16. > :57:18.know you are running. Most of the people in this area are very
:57:19. > :57:25.politically aware and would know who most of the candidates are. We are
:57:26. > :57:30.not stupid by any means and we are quite sure they have enough leaflets
:57:31. > :57:35.coming in the door. People want to get in, they will ignore it. If
:57:36. > :57:41.people do their thing on social media, they will be more attracted
:57:42. > :57:47.to it on a look into it more. I don't use Facebook or Twitter. You
:57:48. > :57:51.need to posters up. People should know anyway without the posters.
:57:52. > :57:55.They don't need them. It is a waste of money.
:57:56. > :57:58.Back to the main business of the day, and the SDLP has shared
:57:59. > :58:00.power with the Ulster Unionists at Stormont before,
:58:01. > :58:03.and now Colum Eastwood wants the electorate to give his party
:58:04. > :58:10.and the UUP another chance. Colum Eastwood joins me now.
:58:11. > :58:18.We have just heard from Mike Nesbitt who says he will transfer after his
:58:19. > :58:23.own candidates to the SDLP but he will not tell UUP voters to follow
:58:24. > :58:27.his lead. Is that he disappointment? We are campaigning to get number one
:58:28. > :58:31.son number two is in constituencies and fighting very hard to gain
:58:32. > :58:35.seats. Our job is to get people to vote for us, it is the same for
:58:36. > :58:39.Mike. After that we are asking people to vote for change and it is
:58:40. > :58:45.up to others and individuals to decide how they vote. We are not
:58:46. > :58:49.going to convince people to vote... We also think it's important the
:58:50. > :58:55.electorate comes out and vote this time. I understand why people have
:58:56. > :58:59.been so fed up and frustrated and now so angry at our politics and why
:59:00. > :59:03.they haven't voted in a long time. I talked to a man last night who
:59:04. > :59:07.hasn't voted in 16 years and he was taking a registration form for the
:59:08. > :59:11.two major he can vote this time because people aren't just fed up,
:59:12. > :59:15.the other furious. I think if people want to see that happening and
:59:16. > :59:18.continue to happen, they should vote for the Government parties but they
:59:19. > :59:22.want to see something different, vote for something different. Mike
:59:23. > :59:27.Nesbitt was clear about he wanted to do it. Let's see if you will be as
:59:28. > :59:32.clear. In your constituency where you are voting, would you vote for
:59:33. > :59:41.SDLP candidate and then give you a second preference to UUP? I will
:59:42. > :59:44.vote for myself one, and then... You haven't decided? Yellow mac you are
:59:45. > :59:47.puzzling yourself as an alternative Government and you cannot looked me
:59:48. > :59:57.straight in the IMC will support a UUP candidate next? What it is it
:59:58. > :00:03.about? Because it has a higher value. We are running to Ulster
:00:04. > :00:09.Unionist Party that it is enough oil. You are putting yourself for a
:00:10. > :00:17.writ as an alternative Government. If we are to take seriously the idea
:00:18. > :00:23.that the UUP could replace Sinn Fein and the DUP the message you need to
:00:24. > :00:28.send to people is vote for the SDLP and then vote for Everett would-be
:00:29. > :00:33.coalition partner the UUP? You want to work out how people want to vote
:00:34. > :00:37.and transfer. I want to test the plausibility of your offering as an
:00:38. > :00:41.alternative Government. We are two parties that to work together and
:00:42. > :00:45.you have worked together in opposition. We are not forced to
:00:46. > :00:49.work together. There is not one opposition around the world who
:00:50. > :00:53.actually work together and the joint motions down, very similar policies
:00:54. > :00:57.on many issues, we did that because we thought it was important to show
:00:58. > :01:02.an alternative. We will work with any party that wants to see changed.
:01:03. > :01:07.In order to format Government, we need other people involved as well.
:01:08. > :01:10.People have a choice. Vote for the same old and you get the same old
:01:11. > :01:15.are you vote for something new and something different and I am asking
:01:16. > :01:19.people to for change which will make a big difference. We need a
:01:20. > :01:22.different type of Government about partnership and cooperation. We
:01:23. > :01:26.struggled hard to get this type of arrangement. We have nationalists
:01:27. > :01:30.and unionists in Government. Of course we are all different and have
:01:31. > :01:34.different perspectives and ideas. I want to see a united Ireland and
:01:35. > :01:40.Mike Nesbitt doesn't. That doesn't support is -- stop working together.
:01:41. > :01:44.Vote for something people that can work together or vote for people who
:01:45. > :01:49.have proven time and time again that they can't and even when they do
:01:50. > :01:54.they don't deliver. Even before we get to a situation of having an
:01:55. > :01:58.alternative Government or next Government in place after the
:01:59. > :02:02.election on March two, there will be some period of negotiations and Mike
:02:03. > :02:06.Nesbitt has made it clear he thinks James Brokenshire ire is the man to
:02:07. > :02:11.cherish such discussions. You have made obviously disagree and you
:02:12. > :02:17.think James Brokenshire I is not an honest arbiter, I think is the
:02:18. > :02:21.phrase you used. Here are two political parties with different
:02:22. > :02:26.policies, different manifestos, different backgrounds and visions of
:02:27. > :02:31.the future. They have a disagreement on a particular issue. We know that
:02:32. > :02:35.but you are also trying to tell people you can be trusted to work
:02:36. > :02:41.together. You are doing my job for me. It would be ridiculous to
:02:42. > :02:45.pretend we are the same party. We are not. What we are seeing is
:02:46. > :02:49.despite the differences we can work together because we want to. We have
:02:50. > :02:56.these systems are called power-sharing. We do what any other
:02:57. > :03:02.coalition Government has to do, get together respectfully and honestly,
:03:03. > :03:06.solve the problems. You can't agree on who should share the talks. Bell
:03:07. > :03:10.is that the biggest issue? I don't think the British Government should
:03:11. > :03:14.be sharing talks when they have acted as an activist in the last
:03:15. > :03:19.number of weeks and months rent legacy. The biggest problem we face
:03:20. > :03:22.right now is we either vote for parties who want to have a
:03:23. > :03:30.Government or parties who are very clear that the heading towards
:03:31. > :03:35.disaster. If you vote for Arlene Foster and Michelle, you're going to
:03:36. > :03:37.get Theresa May. Vote for something different and people who want to
:03:38. > :03:48.form a Government and get over their differences. Vote Colum, get Mike,
:03:49. > :03:53.get -- vote Mike and get Colum. That seems like a joke now. You need to
:03:54. > :04:00.do a lot better than you did last May. Let's talk about Mike Nesbitt
:04:01. > :04:05.conceded the amount for the Ulster Unionist party to climate, it is an
:04:06. > :04:09.even bigger amount for your party. The election last year was bad for
:04:10. > :04:15.the SDLP, the worst result ever in terms of Assembly representation.
:04:16. > :04:22.What chance is there if you're resting that slide in the selection?
:04:23. > :04:27.I think there is a good chance. Back it up with evidence. The evidence
:04:28. > :04:31.will be on March the 2nd and third and fourth. I can only tell you what
:04:32. > :04:35.I am hearing. People are fed up with politics and thinking there is an
:04:36. > :04:38.opportunity to do something different. We have a strong
:04:39. > :04:44.offering, a fantastic team who have proven themselves. You don't have a
:04:45. > :04:47.new team. You have had to go back to people who have retired and bring
:04:48. > :04:54.them to stand yet again. I don't want to be a jest, but Dolores Kelly
:04:55. > :04:59.standing at 57, John Dallat at 69. The hardly represent fresh blood.
:05:00. > :05:03.You have got a row in East Londonderry about your outgoing MLA
:05:04. > :05:07.and a previously outgoing MLA who wants to come back again. It is
:05:08. > :05:12.hardly perfect preparation to do well at the polls? Yaha can you
:05:13. > :05:15.imagine, a political party has a selection route. Sinn Fein have
:05:16. > :05:22.people running against them in North Antrim, West Tyrone, right across.
:05:23. > :05:30.Those things aren't talked about. We have competition, that is neither
:05:31. > :05:34.the SDLP. There are new people right across the north who have been
:05:35. > :05:37.standing up for the public and standing against the ravages against
:05:38. > :05:41.the public purse in the last number of months. People are so fed up and
:05:42. > :05:47.angry at what's going on. How many seats are you going to win? I have
:05:48. > :05:53.made predictions before and they don't do that any more. I think we
:05:54. > :05:58.are working very hard to retain and gain seats in a reduced Assembly we
:05:59. > :06:07.can do very well. You have got it all order to come anywhere near Sinn
:06:08. > :06:12.Fein. Last May, Sinn Fein 167,000 votes, 24%, 28 seats. Look at the
:06:13. > :06:16.SDLP, half the number of first preferences, have the percentage
:06:17. > :06:22.points, 12 seats, fewer than half the seats. You won't come anywhere
:06:23. > :06:27.near close. Lets see how we do. People are very angry at the DUP
:06:28. > :06:32.Sinn Fein not delivering. Sinn Fein are outputting posters about the
:06:33. > :06:36.anchor -- Irish Language Act. They have the opportunity last May to
:06:37. > :06:43.create a programme for Government that would help those things. We are
:06:44. > :06:46.bringing through the Assembly before it collapsed. Arlene Foster says
:06:47. > :06:51.there will never be an Irish Language Act. That is why you should
:06:52. > :06:55.never vote for Arlene Foster and why we need a different type of
:06:56. > :06:59.politics. We can argue with her about the merits of an Irish
:07:00. > :07:02.Language Act but it is not acceptable for hire or anybody else
:07:03. > :07:07.to talk about the Irish language and culture in the way that she has. If
:07:08. > :07:11.we can inject stability into the conversation we can get over these
:07:12. > :07:14.hurdles. The problem isn't that we disagree about a particular policy,
:07:15. > :07:17.the problem is that she treats people who care about the Irish
:07:18. > :07:21.language like the second class citizens and that is not in any way
:07:22. > :07:27.to do Government. If people want that again they should vote for
:07:28. > :07:32.that. What is your position on Arlene Foster's potential role in
:07:33. > :07:36.terms of Government? Michelle O'Neill was on the view on Thursday
:07:37. > :07:41.night, she said her party will not support Arlene Foster having a road
:07:42. > :07:45.and the Executive Office unless or until the RHI enquiry is reported
:07:46. > :07:52.and cleared her name. Yellow like I said a few weeks ago Arlene Foster
:07:53. > :07:57.should not be the First Minister. That looks to the DUP trying to have
:07:58. > :08:00.an influence over who lead their party. I would take part in a
:08:01. > :08:05.Government were Arlene Foster refuses to step aside until the end
:08:06. > :08:10.of the public enquiry. She has done nothing wrong, she says. Let's see
:08:11. > :08:12.what happened to step aside until the end of the public enquiry. She
:08:13. > :08:15.has done nothing wrong, she says. Let's see what happens in. This
:08:16. > :08:19.public enquiry is something we called for along with other parties
:08:20. > :08:22.which Sinn Fein refused to call Fat Andy ended up into such a difficult
:08:23. > :08:37.position it had to call for it and now we have... -- refuse to call for
:08:38. > :08:42.it. People are fed up of that. Do you believe in your heart of hearts
:08:43. > :08:47.we are more than likely looking at an extended period of direct rule
:08:48. > :08:51.after the selection? If people vote with the DUP and Sinn Fein in the
:08:52. > :08:56.same numbers as last time, of course that's where we're heading. It seems
:08:57. > :09:00.to meet Sinn Fein now strategically wants to have the Tories running
:09:01. > :09:04.Northern Ireland. I want a Government to get things done here
:09:05. > :09:08.and all the challenges we have, Brexit, let's get down to dealing
:09:09. > :09:13.with them because that's what people care about. The word about the
:09:14. > :09:16.waiting lists on the NHS, access to the GP, their children having to
:09:17. > :09:21.leave Northern Ireland to find a university place our work. Those are
:09:22. > :09:25.things we need to deal with. If we form a Government we can deal with
:09:26. > :09:31.them but if we don't, if we go back into an argument with the DUP Sinn
:09:32. > :09:35.Fein, and inevitably direct rule, doesn't anybody want that. What is
:09:36. > :09:40.somebody gives first preference to the SDLP voting for in the
:09:41. > :09:44.selection? Some issues there is not a blade of grass between yourselves
:09:45. > :09:51.and Sinn Fein, on other issues there are big differences. The voting for
:09:52. > :09:58.the SDLP policies. What makes the SDLP unique? We are a party that
:09:59. > :10:06.wants to work with unionism. Sinn Fein has just been working with
:10:07. > :10:10.unionism in the Executive Office. I am getting trolled on Twitter by
:10:11. > :10:12.Sinn Fein supporters saying it's ridiculous I am even considering
:10:13. > :10:17.working with the Unionists. We have all signed up to this process which
:10:18. > :10:21.means that Catholics and Protestants, Unionists have to work
:10:22. > :10:25.together to solve our problems in our common interests. No matter how
:10:26. > :10:29.difficult it is, no matter how new differences we have, we have to work
:10:30. > :10:32.together. That is the only tell of future I believe in, the only take
:10:33. > :10:35.the future the public believe in and it gets is over that hurdle and
:10:36. > :10:36.begins to deal with some of the problems.
:10:37. > :10:42.Let's hear what my guests of the day make of that, Sam and Fionnuala.
:10:43. > :10:53.What do you make of May Eastwood's take on the relationship between the
:10:54. > :11:00.Ulster Unionist Party and the SDLP? It would be lovely if it worked. But
:11:01. > :11:05.like Mike Nesbitt's pitch, Mike Nesbitt's pitch depends on how DUP
:11:06. > :11:12.do is break this time and Colum's pitch depends on how Sinn Fein
:11:13. > :11:15.voters vote. They both say if people want to change the to vote for us
:11:16. > :11:20.but people say they are angry and then they look again at the
:11:21. > :11:27.respective strengths of the parties. How Mike Nesbitt's pitch with May
:11:28. > :11:30.Eastwood affects voters is hard to say and is the reason why he won't
:11:31. > :11:41.call for transfers publicly because he knows Mike Nesbitt might dammit.
:11:42. > :11:48.Colum is careful on that. When you pushed him on Colin for transfers,
:11:49. > :11:53.he made a good case about who he is going to transfer to, but when it
:11:54. > :11:59.comes down to the differences and similarities, I see the big
:12:00. > :12:02.difference between the STL P and the UUP in that the Ulster Unionist
:12:03. > :12:06.Party are meant to be and are a Conservative Party and the SDLP have
:12:07. > :12:11.always said the social Democratic and more to the left. I can see big
:12:12. > :12:15.difficulties there for them in working anything together on the
:12:16. > :12:23.Irish language and mutual respect. What about the issue of both Mike
:12:24. > :12:31.Nesbitt and May touched on it, the 45% of people who historically have
:12:32. > :12:34.not voted? They are critical. One of the frustrations I have is a
:12:35. > :12:38.political journalist is when you hear people saying they are all the
:12:39. > :12:42.same, there is no choice. We have an array of choice in Northern Ireland,
:12:43. > :12:46.hard-line socialists to Jim Allister to everything in between. There is
:12:47. > :12:50.more choice than there has ever been in the selection as you are voting
:12:51. > :12:57.for a Government, opposition, a whole array of opposition parties.
:12:58. > :13:02.It is very interesting that Mike Nesbitt and May Eastwood or openly
:13:03. > :13:06.presenting this is not a joint ticket. If people want that and the
:13:07. > :13:10.vote that that is significant but I don't think people will be able to
:13:11. > :13:13.do after the selection turn round and say the politicians drive us
:13:14. > :13:17.into a certain position. People have a choice and history shows us the
:13:18. > :13:22.likely to go what they've gone for before. It will be interesting
:13:23. > :13:24.between now and voting day. That's it from Sunday
:13:25. > :13:26.Politics for this week. I'll be back on Thursday night
:13:27. > :13:29.with The View at 10.40pm on BBC1 when I'll be talking to the DUP
:13:30. > :13:32.leader, Arlene Foster.