4:39:15 > 4:39:18Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics.
4:39:18 > 4:39:20The EU referendum campaign is at its height.
4:39:20 > 4:39:22With less than a fortnight to the vote,
4:39:22 > 4:39:25the Leave and Remain camps are fighting hard to convince
4:39:25 > 4:39:28the electorate how life here would be if we stay or go.
4:39:28 > 4:39:30We'll hear from the former Director-General of
4:39:30 > 4:39:33the World Trade Organization who's warning of the damage he says
4:39:33 > 4:39:36a Brexit would inflict on our economy.
4:39:36 > 4:39:43This would be an act of wanton destruction, of economic viability
4:39:43 > 4:39:49for Britain, and Northern Ireland in particular, to leave this market.
4:39:49 > 4:39:51But the Leave campaign believes getting
4:39:51 > 4:39:54out of the European Union can only be good for trade.
4:39:54 > 4:39:56We'll hear the views of the Secretary of State,
4:39:56 > 4:39:58Theresa Villiers.
4:39:58 > 4:40:00And with their thoughts on all of that and more,
4:40:00 > 4:40:03my guests of the day are Felicity Huston and Chris Donnelly.
4:40:10 > 4:40:13It's been a campaign of claim and counter-claim, and it's set
4:40:13 > 4:40:17to get more intense in the run-up to the big vote on June the 23rd.
4:40:17 > 4:40:20Farming, immigration and border controls are all issues,
4:40:20 > 4:40:23but the main focus has been on the economy,
4:40:23 > 4:40:26and the potential impact here on investment and jobs.
4:40:26 > 4:40:28The Dublin-born former European Commissioner
4:40:28 > 4:40:31and founding Director-General of the World Trade Organization,
4:40:31 > 4:40:35Peter Sutherland, has been warning of the consequences of a Brexit.
4:40:35 > 4:40:38When I spoke to him earlier in the week, I began by asking him
4:40:38 > 4:40:43why he believes leaving the EU would be so bad for the UK economy?
4:40:43 > 4:40:48Well, for the same reasons that every independent analyst in
4:40:48 > 4:40:50the world, virtually, has said
4:40:50 > 4:40:52it would be bad for Britain,
4:40:52 > 4:40:56the IMF has said it, the governor of the Bank of England has said it,
4:40:56 > 4:41:04the Treasury has said it, the Prime Minister, the OECD has said it.
4:41:04 > 4:41:06It will cause a grave,
4:41:06 > 4:41:11serious and prolonged period of great uncertainty.
4:41:11 > 4:41:13It will disrupt trade flows
4:41:13 > 4:41:18and will create a major problem for the British economy.
4:41:18 > 4:41:26And within that context, there is no area in the United Kingdom that will
4:41:26 > 4:41:31suffer more wanton destruction, in my view, than Northern Ireland.
4:41:31 > 4:41:34What do you think then would be the impact specifically
4:41:34 > 4:41:36on the Northern Ireland economy
4:41:36 > 4:41:40if the vote on June 23 is for the UK to leave the European Union?
4:41:41 > 4:41:46It will create major problems, in my opinion,
4:41:46 > 4:41:49and this seems to be corroborated by the
4:41:49 > 4:41:52Chancellor of the Exchequer in what he said in recent days
4:41:52 > 4:41:55in terms of inward investment,
4:41:55 > 4:42:00in terms of the difficulties of trading even within
4:42:00 > 4:42:03the island of Ireland.
4:42:03 > 4:42:08It will cause major difficulties in terms of the future exporting
4:42:08 > 4:42:14capacity of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland towards Europe.
4:42:14 > 4:42:19It will damage Northern Ireland's agriculture seriously,
4:42:19 > 4:42:22again, as the Chancellor has pointed out.
4:42:22 > 4:42:30It is, to me, incredible that any political force in Northern Ireland
4:42:30 > 4:42:34could conceivably consider that this could be a good thing
4:42:34 > 4:42:38for Northern Ireland, including the Secretary of State.
4:42:38 > 4:42:41Well, the Secretary of State obviously takes a different view
4:42:41 > 4:42:45to yours, as does our DUP First Minister and Economy Minister.
4:42:45 > 4:42:48And they all believe that Northern Ireland
4:42:48 > 4:42:51and the UK would be better off outside the European Union.
4:42:51 > 4:42:54They say, we'd be perfectly capable of trading internationally,
4:42:54 > 4:42:58as we currently do, and the UK Government would replace
4:42:58 > 4:43:02EU subsidies from the revenues it's no longer sending off to Brussels.
4:43:02 > 4:43:03They, as you expressed,
4:43:03 > 4:43:11are a tiny minority in global political and economic circles.
4:43:11 > 4:43:14Everybody, from the President of the United States
4:43:14 > 4:43:18to the head of the IMF, to prime ministers of Commonwealth countries
4:43:18 > 4:43:22like New Zealand, Canada and Australia
4:43:22 > 4:43:26think that this would be a bad thing for Britain, a bad thing for
4:43:26 > 4:43:30Europe, and it will certainly be a bad thing for Northern Ireland.
4:43:30 > 4:43:34The Leave campaigners say that is a cosy international cabal
4:43:34 > 4:43:39of self-interested individuals and organisations who don't want change
4:43:39 > 4:43:43because change would damage their future prospects,
4:43:43 > 4:43:45even though it might be better for the average man
4:43:45 > 4:43:47and woman on the street.
4:43:47 > 4:43:52That, to my mind, is so ludicrous that it barely requires a response.
4:43:52 > 4:43:54Is this true of the Governor of the Bank of England?
4:43:54 > 4:43:56Is it true of the Treasury?
4:43:56 > 4:43:59Is it true of the head of the IMF?
4:43:59 > 4:44:01Is it true of the head of the WTO?
4:44:01 > 4:44:06It's ludicrous to describe them as a "cabal" who, in some way,
4:44:06 > 4:44:08are trying to protect their own interests.
4:44:08 > 4:44:11You are a former Director-General of the World Trade Organization
4:44:11 > 4:44:15and a former Chairman of BP, the UK's largest company.
4:44:15 > 4:44:19What do you think the impact would be on Northern Ireland
4:44:19 > 4:44:22trying to attempt foreign direct investment
4:44:22 > 4:44:25if the vote on June 23rd is to leave?
4:44:25 > 4:44:30I think it would definitely have the effect
4:44:30 > 4:44:34of causing investors to go
4:44:34 > 4:44:40to another place within the European Union because those who invest in
4:44:40 > 4:44:46Ireland, north or south, are doing so because it provides them with a
4:44:46 > 4:44:50manufacturing base to sell to the European Union,
4:44:50 > 4:44:52and the uncertainty,
4:44:52 > 4:44:57the borders that will be created by Britain leaving,
4:44:57 > 4:45:01the inevitable period of prolonged negotiation
4:45:01 > 4:45:06will lead to a drying up of investment.
4:45:06 > 4:45:11You know that Leave campaigners say that the European Union market
4:45:11 > 4:45:13is a shrinking market, that Britain,
4:45:13 > 4:45:17the UK and Northern Ireland needs to look to other markets globally
4:45:17 > 4:45:20which are growing, and that is where it should be trading.
4:45:20 > 4:45:24The first thing that will happen will be that there will be
4:45:24 > 4:45:29a recognition that what you describe as a decline in economic area
4:45:29 > 4:45:32is an area of 500 million people.
4:45:32 > 4:45:36It is the wealthiest area, 29% of global GDP.
4:45:36 > 4:45:42It is enormously important for British exports today.
4:45:42 > 4:45:47It cannot be supplanted by the tiny fraction of those exports
4:45:47 > 4:45:50that today go to places like India and China.
4:45:50 > 4:45:54The second point is that if Britain leaves,
4:45:54 > 4:45:57borders will be created with the rest of Europe.
4:45:57 > 4:45:59Goods will have to be checked.
4:45:59 > 4:46:03Borders will have to be applied, in terms of tariffs
4:46:03 > 4:46:09and nontariff barriers to goods that at the moment can freely pass
4:46:09 > 4:46:12across borders throughout Europe.
4:46:12 > 4:46:19This would be an act of wanton destruction of economic viability
4:46:19 > 4:46:24for Britain and Northern Ireland, in particular, to leave this market
4:46:24 > 4:46:30and create years of uncertainty and negotiation about the future.
4:46:30 > 4:46:33And what do you think directly the implications would be
4:46:33 > 4:46:35of a vote to leave on
4:46:35 > 4:46:38the relationship between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland,
4:46:38 > 4:46:41and specifically between Northern Ireland and the Republic?
4:46:41 > 4:46:47The border between the Republic and Northern Ireland will become
4:46:47 > 4:46:52a border of the European Union, with somebody outside the European Union.
4:46:54 > 4:47:00This will create a border control requirement of a kind
4:47:00 > 4:47:03that we had thought banished to history.
4:47:04 > 4:47:07If, in some perverted way,
4:47:07 > 4:47:11there is an ideological desire to recreate that border,
4:47:11 > 4:47:15it is an act that would be incredibly foolish
4:47:15 > 4:47:17and very damaging.
4:47:17 > 4:47:22Enda Kenny voiced his concerns at the possibility of a Leave vote.
4:47:22 > 4:47:24The First Minister Arlene Foster suggested
4:47:24 > 4:47:28diplomatically that he should mind his own business.
4:47:28 > 4:47:31Do you think you should be still involved in the debate?
4:47:31 > 4:47:37Well, if that suggestion that he should mind his own business
4:47:37 > 4:47:40was meant seriously, it shows the naivete
4:47:40 > 4:47:44that is utterly surprising of a serious politician.
4:47:44 > 4:47:48Of course it is his interest, as it's everybody's interest on the
4:47:48 > 4:47:53island of Ireland and more generally that this debate should be
4:47:53 > 4:47:59conducted in a way that recognises the damage done to both economies,
4:47:59 > 4:48:02north and south, by Brexit.
4:48:02 > 4:48:07It would be ludicrous for him not to express his concern,
4:48:07 > 4:48:10because it is entirely legitimate.
4:48:10 > 4:48:13Peter Sutherland pulling no punches in terms of how
4:48:13 > 4:48:16he sees the future for the UK outside the European Union.
4:48:16 > 4:48:19Listening to that in London is the Secretary of State,
4:48:19 > 4:48:21Theresa Villiers,
4:48:21 > 4:48:23who is campaigning, of course, to leave the EU.
4:48:23 > 4:48:26Secretary of State, thanks very much indeed for joining us today.
4:48:26 > 4:48:29How do you respond to Mr Sutherland's view there that
4:48:29 > 4:48:30it's, to quote him,
4:48:30 > 4:48:34"Incredible that any political force in Northern Ireland could
4:48:34 > 4:48:37"conceivably consider that a vote to leave could be a good
4:48:37 > 4:48:39"thing for Northern Ireland"?
4:48:39 > 4:48:42Well, I think a vote to leave would be great for Northern Ireland
4:48:42 > 4:48:45because it would enable us in this country to control,
4:48:45 > 4:48:48take back democratic control over making our own laws.
4:48:48 > 4:48:52As you've pointed out in your interview, it enables us
4:48:52 > 4:48:55to take back control over our own trade policies
4:48:55 > 4:48:58so that we can make deals not just with the European Union to
4:48:58 > 4:49:01enable business to go on with the rest of the EU,
4:49:01 > 4:49:05but also with countries around the world where they have huge markets.
4:49:05 > 4:49:08Those could open up fantastic opportunities
4:49:08 > 4:49:12for Northern Ireland and create jobs and opportunities for young people.
4:49:12 > 4:49:13Well, the Prime Minister doesn't agree.
4:49:13 > 4:49:15He was talking to Andrew Marr this morning.
4:49:15 > 4:49:17He said, "If we vote to leave, we are voting
4:49:17 > 4:49:19"for a self-inflicted recession.
4:49:19 > 4:49:22"They'll never give us a better deal on the outside of the EU
4:49:22 > 4:49:24"than they will on the inside."
4:49:24 > 4:49:26So the Prime Minister has got it wrong, has he?
4:49:26 > 4:49:28Well, I feel deeply uncomfortable
4:49:28 > 4:49:30being on the other side of this debate from the Prime Minister,
4:49:30 > 4:49:35but the fact is that the EU sells a lot more to us than we do to them.
4:49:35 > 4:49:39So it's in their interest to do a free-trade deal with us,
4:49:39 > 4:49:41as they have with countries everywhere
4:49:41 > 4:49:43between Iceland and the Russian border.
4:49:43 > 4:49:46It's just not credible to say that we'd be excluded
4:49:46 > 4:49:47from that kind of free trade deal
4:49:47 > 4:49:51that others with far less important markets for the EU
4:49:51 > 4:49:53have managed to agree with them.
4:49:53 > 4:49:56It would take a very long time to sort those details out, though,
4:49:56 > 4:49:57that is the point made by the Prime Minister
4:49:57 > 4:49:59and also by Peter Sutherland, there -
4:49:59 > 4:50:03that we would have years of not knowing precisely what the terms
4:50:03 > 4:50:05of any future deal would be
4:50:05 > 4:50:08and, in the meantime, foreign direct investment would go elsewhere,
4:50:08 > 4:50:10and that would be a catastrophe,
4:50:10 > 4:50:12"an act of wanton destruction", he said,
4:50:12 > 4:50:13for the Northern Ireland economy.
4:50:13 > 4:50:15But, you know, people like Peter Sutherland
4:50:15 > 4:50:17and other, sort of, so-called experts
4:50:17 > 4:50:21said that inward investment was suddenly going to dry up
4:50:21 > 4:50:22if we didn't join the euro,
4:50:22 > 4:50:26and here we are, more than a decade after the euro's creation,
4:50:26 > 4:50:29and we are doing far better whilst retaining our own currency.
4:50:29 > 4:50:32There is no reason why we can't press ahead pretty rapidly
4:50:32 > 4:50:35with trade deals with the rest of the world,
4:50:35 > 4:50:40and all of the projections, all of the gloomy reports
4:50:40 > 4:50:41that have been published,
4:50:41 > 4:50:43even with their pessimistic assumptions,
4:50:43 > 4:50:46they all say that in the medium to long term,
4:50:46 > 4:50:48we are certainly continuing to grow.
4:50:48 > 4:50:52If Europe was so great for jobs,
4:50:52 > 4:50:55why have they got massive levels of youth unemployment
4:50:55 > 4:50:57in places like Greece and Spain?
4:50:57 > 4:51:00It is the EU that is failing economically, not us.
4:51:00 > 4:51:03The difficulty for you, of course, is that you are,
4:51:03 > 4:51:06as Peter Sutherland says, "in a tiny minority
4:51:06 > 4:51:09"in global, political and economic circles."
4:51:09 > 4:51:11You referred to Peter Sutherland as a so-called expert.
4:51:11 > 4:51:13He is much more of a so-called expert
4:51:13 > 4:51:16than Theresa Villiers is a so-called expert.
4:51:16 > 4:51:18I mean, he listed the individuals and organisations
4:51:18 > 4:51:21who believe that Brexit would be a very bad idea.
4:51:21 > 4:51:24Surely on balance, people, when they look at it,
4:51:24 > 4:51:26are likely to say, "Well, we'll believe the IMF
4:51:26 > 4:51:28"and the WTO, the Governor of the Bank of England
4:51:28 > 4:51:31"and the Treasurer and various prime ministers and presidents,
4:51:31 > 4:51:33"rather than Michael Gove and Boris Johnson
4:51:33 > 4:51:35"and Theresa Villiers", with respect.
4:51:35 > 4:51:37Well, every individual in this country
4:51:37 > 4:51:40will have the choice before him,
4:51:40 > 4:51:42and they can look at the facts.
4:51:42 > 4:51:43They can look at the fact
4:51:43 > 4:51:46that we don't control our immigration policy in this country.
4:51:46 > 4:51:50They can look at the fact that we send several billions of pounds
4:51:50 > 4:51:51to Europe every year.
4:51:51 > 4:51:55They can look at the fact that the Eurozone has an in-built majority
4:51:55 > 4:51:58that can out-vote us again and again and again.
4:51:58 > 4:52:00So, effectively, we are no longer an independent country.
4:52:00 > 4:52:04I think it's time we took back control over making our laws
4:52:04 > 4:52:07so we become an independent self-governing democracy again.
4:52:07 > 4:52:09So Peter Sutherland made it very clear that if that happens,
4:52:09 > 4:52:13there will be major implications for border control -
4:52:13 > 4:52:15movement of people and goods
4:52:15 > 4:52:17between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland,
4:52:17 > 4:52:20the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom.
4:52:20 > 4:52:23Now, the North Down MP, Lady Hermon, challenged you on Friday
4:52:23 > 4:52:26to explain precisely how would the border work
4:52:26 > 4:52:28between the Republic and Northern Ireland
4:52:28 > 4:52:30if a vote for Brexit happens.
4:52:30 > 4:52:32How would it work? Spell it out for us.
4:52:32 > 4:52:34It would work the way it does today.
4:52:34 > 4:52:37We've had a Common Travel Area between the UK and Ireland
4:52:37 > 4:52:39for nearly 100 years.
4:52:39 > 4:52:41But it would be entirely different, with respect, in future,
4:52:41 > 4:52:44because you would have one country in the EU,
4:52:44 > 4:52:46the Republic of Ireland in that scenario,
4:52:46 > 4:52:49and the rest of the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland,
4:52:49 > 4:52:51outside the European Union,
4:52:51 > 4:52:53so you wouldn't have two equal parties,
4:52:53 > 4:52:55two equal countries in future.
4:52:55 > 4:52:57The scenario would be completely different.
4:52:57 > 4:52:59The Common Travel Area already includes
4:52:59 > 4:53:02places like Guernsey and the Jersey, which are not members of the EU.
4:53:02 > 4:53:06- Which are tiny.- It existed before we joined the EU
4:53:06 > 4:53:08and it will certainly exist after we leave.
4:53:08 > 4:53:10After all, it survived a civil war, a world war
4:53:10 > 4:53:12and 30 years of the Troubles.
4:53:12 > 4:53:15It is in the interest of the UK and Ireland that it continues.
4:53:15 > 4:53:19The Irish Ambassador to London has on his website
4:53:19 > 4:53:21that the Common Travel Area will be maintained
4:53:21 > 4:53:23in the event of a Brexit vote.
4:53:23 > 4:53:26It's going to continue as it is today.
4:53:26 > 4:53:29But those negotiations for the future shape of that relationship
4:53:29 > 4:53:32would be conducted, not between
4:53:32 > 4:53:35the Republic of Ireland and the UK governments,
4:53:35 > 4:53:38but they'd be between the UK government and the European Union.
4:53:38 > 4:53:40It wouldn't be a bilateral discussion any more.
4:53:40 > 4:53:42So you couldn't be sure precisely what the powers that be
4:53:42 > 4:53:45in Brussels and Strasbourg would be prepared to accept.
4:53:45 > 4:53:47The point is, it wouldn't be up to Enda Kenny.
4:53:47 > 4:53:50But it's clearly in the interest of both the UK and Ireland
4:53:50 > 4:53:53that we maintain the Common Travel Area.
4:53:53 > 4:53:55So you are saying that the EU would seek to punish Ireland
4:53:55 > 4:53:57for a decision that the United Kingdom has made.
4:53:57 > 4:54:00But that is what David Cameron said this morning,
4:54:00 > 4:54:03whenever he said, "You'll never get a deal on the outside
4:54:03 > 4:54:05"that's as good as a deal on the inside."
4:54:05 > 4:54:07He seemed to be suggesting
4:54:07 > 4:54:09that there would be a degree of punishment, potentially,
4:54:09 > 4:54:11if there's a vote to leave.
4:54:11 > 4:54:14Well, it's much safer to take back control over making our laws,
4:54:14 > 4:54:16so we avoid that kind of EU punishment.
4:54:16 > 4:54:19There is much more scope for the EU to punish us
4:54:19 > 4:54:20if we vote to stay in.
4:54:20 > 4:54:24They can out-vote us on everything they choose to.
4:54:24 > 4:54:27The reality is it's a scare story around the border.
4:54:27 > 4:54:29It's perfectly possible to manage an open border
4:54:29 > 4:54:31with the Republic of Ireland.
4:54:31 > 4:54:33We had one before we joined the EU,
4:54:33 > 4:54:37there is no reason why we can't continue with one after we leave.
4:54:37 > 4:54:40And you have no concern about immigrants?
4:54:40 > 4:54:42You talk about securing the borders,
4:54:42 > 4:54:44various members of the DUP in conversations I've had with them
4:54:44 > 4:54:47and other political discussions that they've taken part in
4:54:47 > 4:54:52have talked about needing to make sure that we have secure borders,
4:54:52 > 4:54:55that we deal with the issue of the international terrorist threat.
4:54:55 > 4:54:59If there is no hard border after Brexit
4:54:59 > 4:55:01between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland,
4:55:01 > 4:55:05this would be a very soft back door for undesirables
4:55:05 > 4:55:07to come into the United Kingdom.
4:55:07 > 4:55:10That's the logic of that situation. You just wouldn't face up to that?
4:55:10 > 4:55:13You wouldn't deal with it? You wouldn't need extra checks?
4:55:13 > 4:55:16I think there are already risks that are associated
4:55:16 > 4:55:19with our open-land border, and they are managed effectively today
4:55:19 > 4:55:21through bilateral cooperation between authorities
4:55:21 > 4:55:23in the UK and Ireland.
4:55:23 > 4:55:27The magnitude of those risks wouldn't increase significantly.
4:55:27 > 4:55:31The reality is that if... The idea of thousands
4:55:31 > 4:55:35of non-Irish EU citizens suddenly flooding across the border
4:55:35 > 4:55:39in the event of a Brexit vote and a change in the rules on free movement
4:55:39 > 4:55:40is far-fetched.
4:55:40 > 4:55:44But if there was, if people did seek to cross the border
4:55:44 > 4:55:47without the appropriate permission to enter,
4:55:47 > 4:55:51there are ways in which we can control those matters,
4:55:51 > 4:55:53which don't involve physical border checks,
4:55:53 > 4:55:56because someone coming across the border wouldn't be able to work,
4:55:56 > 4:55:58they wouldn't be able to claim benefits,
4:55:58 > 4:56:00they wouldn't be able to rent property,
4:56:00 > 4:56:02they wouldn't be able to open a bank account,
4:56:02 > 4:56:05and, in extreme cases, they could be deported.
4:56:05 > 4:56:08Those are the ways in which we will control the risks
4:56:08 > 4:56:10associated with an open-land border,
4:56:10 > 4:56:13rather than to erect the physical checks
4:56:13 > 4:56:15that the scare stories would suggest.
4:56:15 > 4:56:19OK. I just want to move on to one final subject before we let you go,
4:56:19 > 4:56:21that's Loughinisland.
4:56:21 > 4:56:23The SDLP's South Down MP, Margaret Ritchie,
4:56:23 > 4:56:26has said, "You must state clearly if you accept
4:56:26 > 4:56:28"the findings of the Loughinisland Report,
4:56:28 > 4:56:30"published last week, in its entirety.
4:56:30 > 4:56:34"If you do not, then you must resign as Secretary of State."
4:56:34 > 4:56:38I just want to be very clear - of course I accept the report.
4:56:38 > 4:56:41I support the work of the Police Ombudsman,
4:56:41 > 4:56:44and I think it's important that further investigations
4:56:44 > 4:56:48take place as a result of the conclusions that he's reached.
4:56:48 > 4:56:52So you accept fully that there was collusion
4:56:52 > 4:56:54in the Loughinisland murders,
4:56:54 > 4:56:57you are in full agreement, are you, with the Chief Constable
4:56:57 > 4:56:58when he made that point?
4:56:58 > 4:57:00There's no division between your worldview?
4:57:00 > 4:57:02Because you have seemed to suggest in the past
4:57:02 > 4:57:07that there were pernicious and distorting interpretations,
4:57:07 > 4:57:10in terms of collusion. You're clarifying that you don't think that
4:57:10 > 4:57:12in the case of Loughinisland
4:57:12 > 4:57:14and you are in agreement with George Hamilton?
4:57:14 > 4:57:18Well, I accept the statement made both by the Chief Constable
4:57:18 > 4:57:20and the report.
4:57:20 > 4:57:24It is, though, consistent with the speech I made in February,
4:57:24 > 4:57:28that whilst, of course, there are some truly shocking instances
4:57:28 > 4:57:32of wrongdoing by members of the security forces during the Troubles,
4:57:32 > 4:57:33that's deeply regrettable,
4:57:33 > 4:57:36and where it's happened, they need to be held to account,
4:57:36 > 4:57:39and obviously there was serious wrongdoing in this case.
4:57:39 > 4:57:42But I think it is important also to emphasise
4:57:42 > 4:57:46that the vast majority of members of the police and armed services
4:57:46 > 4:57:48doing their duty during the Troubles
4:57:48 > 4:57:52did so with professionalism and entirely within the law.
4:57:52 > 4:57:54OK, all right. We will leave it there, Secretary of State.
4:57:54 > 4:57:57Thanks very much indeed for joining us from London this morning.
4:57:57 > 4:57:59Let's hear what my guests of the day,
4:57:59 > 4:58:02Felicity Huston and Chris Donnelly, make of all of that.
4:58:02 > 4:58:04We'll come on to Loughinisland in a moment or two.
4:58:04 > 4:58:08Let's talk about the EU referendum first of all.
4:58:08 > 4:58:12Felicity, what did you make of the Secretary of State's response
4:58:12 > 4:58:14to Peter Sutherland?
4:58:14 > 4:58:18Peter Sutherland is not a man to be underestimated.
4:58:18 > 4:58:20He has got a pretty significant CV.
4:58:20 > 4:58:23You weren't persuaded by anything he had to say, were you?
4:58:23 > 4:58:26Peter Sutherland is the man who chaired Goldman Sachs International,
4:58:26 > 4:58:29"The great vampire squid on the face of humanity",
4:58:29 > 4:58:31as Rolling Stone described Goldman Sachs.
4:58:31 > 4:58:33He was also sitting on the board of RBS
4:58:33 > 4:58:36when Fred Goodwin was running mad, and nearly bankrupt the country.
4:58:36 > 4:58:37I don't agree with him.
4:58:37 > 4:58:40He has a very specific worldview, doesn't he?
4:58:40 > 4:58:43He thinks that globalisation is it, we must go for it,
4:58:43 > 4:58:47corporatism is it, big companies, that's the way it should be.
4:58:47 > 4:58:49That's what he's done all his life.
4:58:49 > 4:58:51Of course he sees it like that.
4:58:51 > 4:58:54He doesn't look at democratic deficits and things like that.
4:58:54 > 4:58:55That's not his view.
4:58:55 > 4:58:57Chris, which of the two persuaded you?
4:58:57 > 4:59:00Well, I would go more with what Peter Sutherland was saying.
4:59:00 > 4:59:03Up to this point, looking from a North of Ireland perspective,
4:59:03 > 4:59:06this has been a very British discussion, for obvious reasons.
4:59:06 > 4:59:09The fact that Peter Sutherland is now speaking in such strident terms,
4:59:09 > 4:59:12the fact that Enda Kenny has become increasingly involved,
4:59:12 > 4:59:14I think he's canvassing in Britain this week,
4:59:14 > 4:59:17shows that from the Irish State's perspective,
4:59:17 > 4:59:21the levels of anxiety on the Remain side are getting very high
4:59:21 > 4:59:24and they have to speak almost in a selfish, strategic sense
4:59:24 > 4:59:25in terms of the interests,
4:59:25 > 4:59:27what they see as interests of the Irish State.
4:59:27 > 4:59:31Very clearly, they see that with the Remain side winning.
4:59:31 > 4:59:35OK, very briefly, what do you see the border scenario looking like
4:59:35 > 4:59:38in the event of a Brexit vote on June 23rd,
4:59:38 > 4:59:39which is what you want to see?
4:59:39 > 4:59:40I do, yes, that's right.
4:59:40 > 4:59:43I think we should leave for all sorts of reasons.
4:59:43 > 4:59:44I think... I mean, I'm not an expert
4:59:44 > 4:59:47on immigration procedures and policies.
4:59:47 > 4:59:50I think it will be a bit like travelling to other countries.
4:59:50 > 4:59:52When you go to Switzerland, from other parts of the EU,
4:59:52 > 4:59:56you don't go through massive queues and border controls and things.
4:59:56 > 4:59:58With modern technology,
4:59:58 > 5:00:03that automatic...thing they have
5:00:03 > 5:00:06for your car registration numbers, readings like that,
5:00:06 > 5:00:08that is the sort of stuff we'll use for checking goods
5:00:08 > 5:00:10and so on going through.
5:00:10 > 5:00:12I think bringing the border back physically,
5:00:12 > 5:00:15in a visible sense, is a very psychological move,
5:00:15 > 5:00:17and I think that this discussion is something that's going to
5:00:17 > 5:00:20almost incentivise nationalists in the North to turn out.
5:00:20 > 5:00:22OK, all right. Let's just pause for a moment
5:00:22 > 5:00:25and take a look back at the political week gone
5:00:25 > 5:00:27past in 60 seconds, with Gareth Gordon.
5:00:32 > 5:00:35An independent panel made its pitch
5:00:35 > 5:00:37on disbanding paramilitary groups.
5:00:37 > 5:00:39We are an executive absolutely united
5:00:39 > 5:00:41in facing down the criminal gangs
5:00:41 > 5:00:44and paramilitary groups within our society
5:00:44 > 5:00:46who are determined to plunge us back to the past.
5:00:46 > 5:00:50The Police Ombudsman found there was collusion
5:00:50 > 5:00:53between some RUC officers and the UVF gang
5:00:53 > 5:00:55behind the Loughinisland massacre.
5:00:55 > 5:00:58Two former prime ministers arrived in Northern Ireland
5:00:58 > 5:01:02predicting Brexit could spell trouble for the peace process.
5:01:02 > 5:01:05It would throw all the pieces of the constitutional jigsaw
5:01:05 > 5:01:07up into the air again.
5:01:07 > 5:01:09But those in the Leave campaign were outraged.
5:01:09 > 5:01:12Two former prime ministers of the United Kingdom arrived
5:01:12 > 5:01:16and they made an outrageous and disgraceful assertion.
5:01:16 > 5:01:19Though at Stormont, the focus was already shifting
5:01:19 > 5:01:21to the other big European story.
5:01:21 > 5:01:24Robbie Keane or Kyle Lafferty?
5:01:24 > 5:01:27You're asking a Fermanagh person, Robbie Keane or Kyle Lafferty?
5:01:27 > 5:01:29Kyle Lafferty.
5:01:29 > 5:01:31What about Robbie Keane AND Kyle Lafferty?
5:01:31 > 5:01:32CHUCKLING
5:01:38 > 5:01:40Gareth Gordon ending his report with a bit of sport
5:01:40 > 5:01:43at the Executive Office Committee.
5:01:43 > 5:01:45Just a final word from Felicity and Chris.
5:01:45 > 5:01:47Chris, just to pick up on that conversation
5:01:47 > 5:01:49with the Secretary of State about Loughinisland,
5:01:49 > 5:01:50what do you make about where we are?
5:01:50 > 5:01:53Do you think she clarified her position for us today?
5:01:53 > 5:01:55Yes, I think she did. I think that would have been important
5:01:55 > 5:01:58from her perspective because of what Margaret Ritchie had said.
5:01:58 > 5:02:01But all these places involved in the past are important on two levels.
5:02:01 > 5:02:03One for the families and their personal searches
5:02:03 > 5:02:05for truth and justice, but secondly for the rest of us
5:02:05 > 5:02:08in terms of society. The past remains an uncomfortable place.
5:02:08 > 5:02:09It's contested terrain.
5:02:09 > 5:02:13Issues like collusion feed directly into competing narratives
5:02:13 > 5:02:14with regard to the past and present.
5:02:14 > 5:02:18That's a conversation that is just going to be continuing
5:02:18 > 5:02:20- in this society going forward. - Felicity?
5:02:20 > 5:02:22I think Ben Lowry from the News Letter yesterday
5:02:22 > 5:02:25made a very interesting contribution to this discussion
5:02:25 > 5:02:27on what you were raising with Theresa about collusion
5:02:27 > 5:02:29and the meaning of it and this sort of thing.
5:02:29 > 5:02:31It's an article worth looking at.
5:02:31 > 5:02:33He's really obviously thought quite hard
5:02:33 > 5:02:34about how language in Northern Ireland
5:02:34 > 5:02:36has always been an issue.
5:02:36 > 5:02:38Things are being turned and changed, their meaning,
5:02:38 > 5:02:40and the impact it's having on us.
5:02:40 > 5:02:43OK. Language has always been contested, that's for sure.
5:02:43 > 5:02:45We'll leave it there. Thank you, both, very much indeed.
5:02:45 > 5:02:47That's it from Sunday Politics for this week.
5:02:47 > 5:02:50Join me for Stormont Today on BBC Two at 11.15 tomorrow night.
5:02:50 > 5:02:52Until then, from all of us, bye-bye.