:00:31. > :00:36.Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for
:00:37. > :00:41.their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks'
:00:42. > :00:42.time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate
:00:43. > :00:46.time gets underway. In a Sunday issues at stake on May 22nd with
:00:47. > :00:55.senior party figures from the Conservatives, Labour, Liberal
:00:56. > :00:58.Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever we'll be discussing the week ahead
:00:59. > :01:05.And coming up here: New jobs, commentators.
:01:06. > :01:08.And coming up here: New jobs, economic growth and the Giro - we'll
:01:09. > :01:10.hear from the Enterprise minister, Arlene Foster.
:01:11. > :01:12.And we discuss the symbolism of Martin McGuinness in Windsor with
:01:13. > :01:15.the Victims' Commissioner, Kathryn Stone.
:01:16. > :01:16.the Victims' Commissioner, Kathryn newspapers which some claim are
:01:17. > :01:22.politically slanted and not impartial about informing people of
:01:23. > :01:25.local services. So all that to come between now and
:01:26. > :01:28.quarter to four and for the next thirty minutes or so we'll be
:01:29. > :01:31.debating the European elections. Here in the studio we have Syed
:01:32. > :01:34.Kamall, leader of the Conservatives in the European Parliament, Richard
:01:35. > :01:37.Howitt, chair of the Labour group of MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader
:01:38. > :01:47.of the Lib Dems in Europe, and Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of
:01:48. > :01:50.communications. Welcome to you all. In a moment, all four will give us
:01:51. > :02:00.their opening pitch for the elections. A little earlier they
:02:01. > :02:02.drew lots to decide who'll go first. And that privilege goes to Syed.
:02:03. > :02:08.Before that, though, here's a quick reminder of what all the fuss is
:02:09. > :02:12.about. The vote to choose members of the
:02:13. > :02:16.European Parliament takes place on Thursday the 22nd of May. The same
:02:17. > :02:19.day as local elections are held in England and Northern Ireland. The UK
:02:20. > :02:23.sends 73 England and Northern Ireland. The UK
:02:24. > :02:27.sends NTP is to Brussels. And the vote is a form of proportional
:02:28. > :02:34.representation. In total, there are 751 MEPs from the 28 member states.
:02:35. > :02:39.What do they do all day? The European Parliament's power has
:02:40. > :02:42.grown. A vet of the EU commissioners and they can amend, approve or
:02:43. > :02:49.reject nearly all EU legislation and the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have
:02:50. > :02:55.been responsible for include price caps on mobile phone chargers,
:02:56. > :03:01.banking regulation and cover food regulation two -- labelling.
:03:02. > :03:07.Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds. Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe
:03:08. > :03:11.needs to change. And our relationship with Europe needs to
:03:12. > :03:14.change. Only the Conservatives have a plan to deliver that change and of
:03:15. > :03:16.the British people and in-out referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems
:03:17. > :03:24.will not and UKIP simply cannot. Only the Conservatives will offer
:03:25. > :03:29.the three yards, with Conservative MEPs working alongside a
:03:30. > :03:34.conservative Prime Minister. For, really is and above all a
:03:35. > :03:39.referendum. Sarah Ludford is next. Your choice is simple. If you think
:03:40. > :03:43.Britain is better off in Europe, vote for the Liberal Democrats. The
:03:44. > :03:48.Lib Dems are the only party of Ian, fighting to keep Britain in Europe
:03:49. > :03:52.and in work. There is nothing patriotic about UKIP's desire to
:03:53. > :03:56.pull-out. That is playing Russian roulette with Britain's economy and
:03:57. > :04:00.jobs. The Conservatives are flirting with exit and Labour lacks the
:04:01. > :04:07.courage to speak up. Thought Liberal Democrat on May the 22nd to say in
:04:08. > :04:08.Europe for jobs and security. Sarah Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from
:04:09. > :04:14.Labour. The European Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from
:04:15. > :04:18.about who represents you. They are not a referendum on a referendum.
:04:19. > :04:23.Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs and growth first. A guarantee to
:04:24. > :04:27.help young people into work, reforming energy markets so that
:04:28. > :04:31.bills are brought down for good. Labour believes in reform in Europe,
:04:32. > :04:35.but within. It is David Cameron who is risking your job and Britain's
:04:36. > :04:42.prosperity because of divisions in his own party. Labour MEPs put
:04:43. > :04:49.British interests first. Our fourth opening statement from Patrick
:04:50. > :04:53.O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a declining regional trade bloc in an
:04:54. > :04:56.era of global trade. It is a 20th-century political project
:04:57. > :05:01.designed to prevent conflict in Europe that is now reawakening old
:05:02. > :05:09.hostilities. It is an attempt to force on the European people
:05:10. > :05:13.European this as their primary collective identity. It has hollowed
:05:14. > :05:19.out British democracy and now we do not even control our own borders.
:05:20. > :05:22.That is why you should vote UKIP. That is the opening statements.
:05:23. > :05:28.Let's get on with the debate. Why should people vote in the
:05:29. > :05:31.selections? If you vote UKIP, we can deliver an earthquake that will rock
:05:32. > :05:36.the foundations of British politics and the European political class. We
:05:37. > :05:43.can send a signal to Europe that Britain has had enough, that Britain
:05:44. > :05:45.wants to retain its nation state status and regain political power
:05:46. > :05:53.and the ability to forge trading deals across the world. Britain
:05:54. > :05:56.leading Europe to freedom twice in the last century through bloodshed.
:05:57. > :05:59.We feel that a UKIP win in those elections could help Britain
:06:00. > :06:05.We feel that a UKIP win in those example to lead European nation
:06:06. > :06:09.states back to free assembly again. Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that
:06:10. > :06:14.many Tory voters will vote you clip to keep you honest, to keep your
:06:15. > :06:17.feet to the fire? Whatever you think of the European Parliament or the
:06:18. > :06:22.EU, the fact is that the European Parliament as equal power with the
:06:23. > :06:28.28 governments of the EU. When David Cameron delivered the first cut to
:06:29. > :06:31.the EU budget, the first ever cut, he needed a strong team of
:06:32. > :06:38.Conservative MEPs working alongside him. But many of your supporters
:06:39. > :06:47.will vote for UKIP for the reasons I gave. Many will vote Liberal
:06:48. > :06:49.Democrat. Not very many. Many of our supporters will vote for us because
:06:50. > :06:52.we are the only party trying to change the EU
:06:53. > :06:57.we are the only party trying to have offered renegotiation and a
:06:58. > :07:00.referendum. And how would you vote in such a referendum? We have no
:07:01. > :07:05.idea whether he would vote yes or no. Let him answer. I will answer
:07:06. > :07:12.that question. If the EU continues on this road, towards a United
:07:13. > :07:15.States of Europe, and if there was no change at the time of the
:07:16. > :07:20.referendum, then I would probably vote to leave. You have no
:07:21. > :07:23.confidence in David Cameron? We Javier Culson opportunity to read
:07:24. > :07:26.negotiate our relationship with Europe and the Conservatives are at
:07:27. > :07:35.the forefront of that agenda. David Cameron have not given a list of
:07:36. > :07:39.demands. He said that if things do not change, he will probably vote to
:07:40. > :07:43.leave, is that right? If at the time of the referendum, things had not
:07:44. > :07:51.changed, I would vote to leave and we have a golden opportunity to
:07:52. > :07:57.perform the agenda. Richard, the last time the British people had a
:07:58. > :08:02.say on this was over 40 years ago. Under a Labour government. Which was
:08:03. > :08:07.deeply divided on the issue. And that was a say on the common market.
:08:08. > :08:12.Today's EU is a very different animal from the common market. Why
:08:13. > :08:18.can we not, under another Labour government, have another vote? First
:08:19. > :08:25.of all, we want it to be more than a free trading area. We make no
:08:26. > :08:28.apologies about that. But in the elections because this is half of
:08:29. > :08:32.Britain's exports and investment. If you care about your job and
:08:33. > :08:36.business, you cannot hear from the party of government that they
:08:37. > :08:39.probably want you to leave because the CBI, the engineering employees
:08:40. > :08:42.in Federation and the chimp of commerce, 80% of them say it is
:08:43. > :08:48.necessary to stay in. So why not give us a vote? When David Cameron
:08:49. > :08:55.says he wants to repatriate social powers, he means takeaway maternity
:08:56. > :08:59.rights and holidays. If the case is so strong, why not give us an in-out
:09:00. > :09:04.vote? David Miliband has said that there will be a referendum if there
:09:05. > :09:09.was a proposal to change powers. Why wait? This is based on a series of
:09:10. > :09:13.reforms. Labour has a set of reforms. David Cameron is silent
:09:14. > :09:18.about what they would be. That is because he knows that if he put them
:09:19. > :09:21.forward, they would either be unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic
:09:22. > :09:29.backbenchers and he would be out of a job, or they would be unacceptable
:09:30. > :09:33.to European leaders. Why is your leader missing in action? Ed
:09:34. > :09:39.Miliband is unable to say even the positive things that you are saying.
:09:40. > :09:42.He has run away from the argument. He actually said there would not be
:09:43. > :09:51.a referendum in his time. For a conservative to say they will
:09:52. > :09:57.have a referendum but not give the reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg
:09:58. > :10:00.gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity in that debate. He said that the
:10:01. > :10:04.Eurosceptic view was to leave Britain like Billy no mates. I can
:10:05. > :10:11.say that he is the best qualified person to say that. Sarah Ludford,
:10:12. > :10:15.you have said that lots of people are going to vote Lib Dem but that
:10:16. > :10:19.is not what the polls are saying. You are 7% in two polls this
:10:20. > :10:23.morning. Eclectic's decision to champion Europe has been a disaster
:10:24. > :10:27.for you. You face wet out. We swayed a lot of people our way with Nick
:10:28. > :10:35.Clegg's debate. Where is the evidence? We are the only party that
:10:36. > :10:38.is completely united, saying that we are wanting to stay in. It is
:10:39. > :10:44.essential because formally and jobs are supported by our trade with the
:10:45. > :10:47.EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding a lot of moderate conservative
:10:48. > :10:52.voters are actually fed up with the Tories being split and divided all
:10:53. > :11:00.over the place. Syed Kamall saying that we might vote in rout. -- in or
:11:01. > :11:05.out. We are consistent. A poll in London showed that 18% would vote
:11:06. > :11:10.for us. I am delighted about that. London is not the whole country, it
:11:11. > :11:12.may surprise you. We need to move on to immigration, an important issue.
:11:13. > :11:16.We are a member of the EU and to immigration, an important issue.
:11:17. > :11:21.rules say that with a few caveats, our fellow EU citizens are free to
:11:22. > :11:27.come here if they want. Why can we not just accept that? Britain has a
:11:28. > :11:30.proud record when it comes to immigration. We have been open to
:11:31. > :11:34.people across the world for centuries. But we welcome people who
:11:35. > :11:38.come to our country to contribute to pay taxes and two wards are a
:11:39. > :11:42.society positively. But there are three real concerns that we have to
:11:43. > :11:46.address. The first one is numbers, and secondly people who may come
:11:47. > :11:51.here not to work but for benefits, and thirdly, getting a hang of the
:11:52. > :11:55.numbers. I think it is shameful that only this week the office for
:11:56. > :11:59.National said that they did not collect sufficient figures under a
:12:00. > :12:04.Labour government. 350,000 extra people came in and they did not
:12:05. > :12:10.count the numbers. That is the size of a city like Cardiff. That is
:12:11. > :12:15.shameful. 350,000 came from all over the place. Do you accept the free
:12:16. > :12:19.movement of peoples within the EU? I accept and am open to people who
:12:20. > :12:24.want to come here and contribute. In the same way... Do you accept the
:12:25. > :12:31.free movement of peoples within the EU? In our manifesto, we have said
:12:32. > :12:34.it is an issue for reform. We have to make sure that people are coming
:12:35. > :12:42.here to work and contribute positively, not simply to come here
:12:43. > :12:45.and take advantage of the system. I will tell you what else is
:12:46. > :12:48.shameful. What is shameful is David Cameron making a pledge to the
:12:49. > :12:52.British people on an issue that they really care about, to bring net
:12:53. > :12:57.immigration down to the tens of thousands a year, having no means of
:12:58. > :13:01.fulfilling that pledge. And we see now it is back up to 212,000 a year
:13:02. > :13:06.because we have no volume control and no quality control from
:13:07. > :13:10.immigration from our neighbours. And that is a disgrace. How could UKIP
:13:11. > :13:15.address that issue? Because we would leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You
:13:16. > :13:19.do not have a single member of Parliament. He will not get a single
:13:20. > :13:29.member of Parliament. How are you... ? TUC are hoping to get an
:13:30. > :13:39.MEP. What do you say? -- he is here today hoping to get an MEP. All of
:13:40. > :13:46.-- almost 2 million Brits live and work in the rest of the EU. Is that
:13:47. > :13:51.worth having? The majority are wealthy, retired people. Why do not
:13:52. > :13:54.object to bilateral agreements with wealthy, retired people. Why do not
:13:55. > :13:58.countries with similar living standards to us. France, the
:13:59. > :14:01.Netherlands, that works fine. But these three people want Turkey to
:14:02. > :14:15.join the EU, 75 Na Li and people running our country, only 10% of
:14:16. > :14:18.which... Syed Kamall is Michael year to say whether they are in favour of
:14:19. > :14:22.free movement for work, not for benefits... That is what I'm
:14:23. > :14:29.saying. You said you were unable to be clear. That leaves 2 million
:14:30. > :14:32.British people absolutely unsure as to whether they would have a right
:14:33. > :14:36.to continue to live in other countries. It is a two-way street.
:14:37. > :14:40.You are putting those people in a state of uncertainty. EU migrants
:14:41. > :14:44.have been good for the British economy and contribute far more than
:14:45. > :14:51.they take out in services and benefits. One in seven businesses
:14:52. > :14:55.were founded in -- by migrants. And they cannot just turn up and claim
:14:56. > :15:01.benefits. The coalition government has legislated to make sure that
:15:02. > :15:09.they cannot claim for three months. They will not be able to claim for
:15:10. > :15:13.more than six months. Richard Howitt, Jack Straw said it was "A
:15:14. > :15:20.spectacular mistake for Labour to allow EU migrants from Poland and
:15:21. > :15:25.Hungary to work in the UK from 2004." Why should we trust a party
:15:26. > :15:29.that makes spectacular mistakes and hasn't apologised for it? We accept
:15:30. > :15:34.it is a mistake and I apologise. We make a firm commitment for new EU
:15:35. > :15:36.states we will put down transitional controls. When I listen to the
:15:37. > :15:42.Conservatives and UKIP trying to re-write history, saying immigration
:15:43. > :15:47.was out of control, uncontrolled, open door, we hear it over and over
:15:48. > :15:53.again. It is not true. Anyone who was around at the time... Come on,
:15:54. > :15:58.Richard. Hold on, you undercounted by 350,000. You were letting 2
:15:59. > :16:04.million in over the years, an under-counted by 350,000 people you
:16:05. > :16:10.didn't know came in. You should have tightened the benefit rules. The
:16:11. > :16:16.Conservative MEP today has, in four years in government in Britain, is
:16:17. > :16:20.trying it blame the previous Labour Government over the fact they won't
:16:21. > :16:25.count people in or people out. Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for
:16:26. > :16:30.people to come to the country and benefits are changing, changing the
:16:31. > :16:36.habitual residence test and we are going to say that migrants can't
:16:37. > :16:39.come and claim child benefit if their children are outside the
:16:40. > :16:44.country. Labour a has shown they have listened to concerns but we say
:16:45. > :16:48.it is a stronger, better, country because it is diverse and
:16:49. > :16:51.multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy politics from all the Peters. They
:16:52. > :16:55.are committed to a system with no volume control and no quality
:16:56. > :16:59.control. You talk about benefits as if it is only out of work benefits.
:17:00. > :17:05.In work benefits cost a lot of money for the British taxpayer. Big
:17:06. > :17:14.businesses bring in minimum wage workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool
:17:15. > :17:21.place What are you going to do? Have all the pensioners come back to
:17:22. > :17:22.Britain? How will will you fund the health care? Do you really think
:17:23. > :17:26.Spain and pour tu ghal health care? Do you really think
:17:27. > :17:32.situation, are going to turn their backs on British property owners
:17:33. > :17:38.with wealth? -- Portugal. They might not wanting pensioners to use their
:17:39. > :17:43.health service. Pensioners often come back to Britain to use the
:17:44. > :17:46.health service. You have shown it represents wealthy people's
:17:47. > :17:52.interests. A second Conservative Party. Hang on a minute... Blue
:17:53. > :17:56.collar wages were down. They want it character for the National Health
:17:57. > :18:00.Service, have cuts that go farther and comprehensive education. This is
:18:01. > :18:03.a debate on the wider politics between Conservatives and UKIP and
:18:04. > :18:08.Labour will... You can't both talk time. UKIP - they haven't thought it
:18:09. > :18:12.through, thousand they will have trade access in the EU, hasn't
:18:13. > :18:15.thought how they will have trade deals that the Liberal Democrats
:18:16. > :18:20.support, like with the United States: Would you have a cap on
:18:21. > :18:24.non-EU immigrants? We are not in favour of a cap. No cap on either.
:18:25. > :18:30.No. Well it is a target. It is a moving feast, as it were. Would you
:18:31. > :18:33.have a limit on non-EU limits? We have limits on quality. We have
:18:34. > :18:38.people who are skilled migrants coming in. Lip its? . By quality,
:18:39. > :18:45.not by quantity. -- Limits. How do you do that? We need to move
:18:46. > :18:49.on to foreign affairs. Should we pool more sovereignty to
:18:50. > :18:54.give the European Union more clout in foreign and defence matters? I'm
:18:55. > :18:59.Labour's defence and foreign affairs spokesperson. No we don't need to
:19:00. > :19:03.pull more powers into Europe. As we undertake this live debate there are
:19:04. > :19:05.guns being fired in Ukraine as we speak. Europe is facing, for the
:19:06. > :19:10.first time, since the speak. Europe is facing, for the
:19:11. > :19:15.Second World War, Armies crossing national borders and floatening
:19:16. > :19:18.peace. Doesn't it -- threatening peace. Doesn't it need to come
:19:19. > :19:26.together of the We don't need more powers. We need political will. With
:19:27. > :19:30.Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has -- we have fallen short in the
:19:31. > :19:34.sanctions. But it is Europe, not Britain. Remember Putin calling
:19:35. > :19:38.Britain little England a small island with no influence. Labour
:19:39. > :19:42.doesn't agree with that. But if that's the mindset that allows
:19:43. > :19:46.someone like Vladimir Putin to send troops across borders threatening
:19:47. > :19:50.peace, it is worrying. And when we have, in UKIP a party that say they
:19:51. > :19:55.admire Putin and support his policies, that is no recipe for how
:19:56. > :19:59.Europe should be wrong. I was waiting for that. Let me ask him. We
:20:00. > :20:07.don't admire Putin as a leader... Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage
:20:08. > :20:10.said, was he admired him as a political operator. Testifies
:20:11. > :20:16.Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good foreign policy was speaking softly
:20:17. > :20:21.but carrying a big stick. The EU shouts its mouthed off while
:20:22. > :20:25.carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy that you wiebl it stand up to Putin
:20:26. > :20:29.over the Ukraine. -- that you would be able to stand up. Do you admire
:20:30. > :20:34.what Putin is doing in the Ukraine? No. What matters in foreign policy
:20:35. > :20:39.is the outcould. We have a terrible outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria,
:20:40. > :20:45.and Georgia... What would UKIP do? What u skip would do, would be to
:20:46. > :20:52.keep our people safe -- UKIP. How? And not commit our Foreign
:20:53. > :20:55.Office and troops Foreign wars. Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this
:20:56. > :21:00.issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel Farage said in previous debates that
:21:01. > :21:06.Britain should leave the EU because, "We have had enough of endless
:21:07. > :21:10.foreign wars." Which wars has the EU taken us into? The EU has ban very
:21:11. > :21:18.important factor in the push towards trying to get military intervention
:21:19. > :21:24.in Syria, for example. What wars has the etch U taken us into it -- EU.
:21:25. > :21:31.Fortunately the EU doesn't have its own army yet. It has wanted to sign
:21:32. > :21:36.up to an expansionist agenda. Did it want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP
:21:37. > :21:41.opposed Iraq, so did most of the mainline Europeans. Germany was
:21:42. > :21:48.against Syria and Libya. No EU policy. We had an Anglo French deal
:21:49. > :21:53.on Syria. A by lateral deal. A European dimension. No, buy lateral.
:21:54. > :21:58.We have a European Union that wants to expand ever-more into other
:21:59. > :22:03.people's spheres of influence. If we are going to stand up to what Putin
:22:04. > :22:08.is do, which obviously Nigel Farage has no intentions of doing, you have
:22:09. > :22:12.to get your act together on economic sanctions and diplomatic force and
:22:13. > :22:19.in trade matters, in supporting eastern European countries. Sayeria,
:22:20. > :22:22.who and whose army? And NATO and working transatlanticically, is
:22:23. > :22:28.important through NATO. I will come to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said
:22:29. > :22:33.that the idea of an EU Army was, "A dangerous fantasy that is simply not
:22:34. > :22:38.true ""Why then, are we already working on etch U-owned and
:22:39. > :22:39.controlled drones -- EU-owned and the President of the European
:22:40. > :22:46.Parliament has said that the the President of the European
:22:47. > :22:49.majority of MEPs want the EU to have "deployable troops." He is not
:22:50. > :22:53.speaking for me or Liberal Democrats. The EU does not and will
:22:54. > :22:57.not have an army. Our defence is mainly shaped through NATO. He is
:22:58. > :23:01.President of the Parliament What we must do is to get equipment which
:23:02. > :23:05.can operate together. We waste an awful lot of our spending in Europe
:23:06. > :23:10.because we duplicate equipment. We don't get the bang for our bucks
:23:11. > :23:14.that we should. It is a useful role for the EU, to get equipment working
:23:15. > :23:20.together. That doesn't make sense. You say military equipment, a NATO
:23:21. > :23:25.job. No, the EU, there is a kind of dimension of the EU members of NATO,
:23:26. > :23:30.in working together on a common quument o o so they can talk to each
:23:31. > :23:35.other -- on common equipment, so they can talk to each other. The EU
:23:36. > :23:38.has a role but not an army. So a European defence agency, that helps
:23:39. > :23:41.our defence industries and those jobs are extremely important and
:23:42. > :23:47.would be threatened if the Conservatives and UKIP took us out
:23:48. > :23:51.of Europe but it is 100 years since the start of the fist world war.
:23:52. > :23:55.Remember that Europe was set up to try to get a secure peace within
:23:56. > :23:59.Europe T succeeded. Now look on Ukraine but also on the southern
:24:00. > :24:04.borders to the Arab Spring countries in North Africa. It is more
:24:05. > :24:08.important than ever that we work to keep keep peace and stability on our
:24:09. > :24:12.borders. Can I say to Syed and the Conservative MEPs. You talk about
:24:13. > :24:16.the three Rs, I have a fourth, retreat. If you take us out of the
:24:17. > :24:23.European Union, it will be the worse retreat by Britain since Gallipoli.
:24:24. > :24:25.Let him answer If he wants answers -- the British Parliament is the
:24:26. > :24:28.right place with a -- the British Parliament is the
:24:29. > :24:35.Secretary to decide our foreign policy. You say that, but can I
:24:36. > :24:38.quote David Cameron, this is germain to what you are saying, David
:24:39. > :24:42.Cameron said "There is no doubt that we are more powerful than
:24:43. > :24:46.Washington, Beijing and Delhi, because we are a powerful player in
:24:47. > :24:49.the European Union." Do you agree? He is saying that there are times
:24:50. > :24:53.when it comes to international foreign affairs when you have to
:24:54. > :24:58.cooperate with partners. Often they are EU partners but often they are
:24:59. > :25:03.not. The problem we have... Washington have made it very clear
:25:04. > :25:08.that it wants Britain to talk through Brussels. No, not at all.
:25:09. > :25:14.Talk through the French and Italians, come on, wake up? Through
:25:15. > :25:17.the EU collective. I'm vice chair of the EU delegation. I hear it from
:25:18. > :25:23.the American counterparts. They want the EU to get itself together and
:25:24. > :25:27.not least on Ukraine. Why should our sovereignty be at the behest of... ?
:25:28. > :25:30.I want to hear from Syed calm amplgts the British Parliament is
:25:31. > :25:33.the right place to decide our foreign poll sinchts sometimes we
:25:34. > :25:37.work with our European partners, sometimes we work with our
:25:38. > :25:43.non-European partners. It is our choice to pull sovereign trito work
:25:44. > :25:49.together. G, we move on to our foirt area. We hear a lot in this country
:25:50. > :25:55.about MPs expenses. Snted the real scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't
:25:56. > :26:02.the real scandal, the MEPs gravy train? You all have your snouts? The
:26:03. > :26:08.trough? I don't think so. There is transpancy. The way we use our
:26:09. > :26:12.expenses is online and anyone can ask to examine those. We have
:26:13. > :26:16.actually voted to reform MEPs' allowances. We regularly vote but
:26:17. > :26:21.unfortunately the majority in Parliament don't. Have you voted to
:26:22. > :26:27.cut them? Yes. By how much? About 5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies
:26:28. > :26:33.I never fly except across the Atlantic. Difficult to do it any
:26:34. > :26:39.other way. I didn't swim. But we voted for economy flutes. We
:26:40. > :26:44.voted for European Parliament policy of transparency which other groups
:26:45. > :26:48.haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote. They don't earn their salaries.
:26:49. > :26:54.Dhoent do anything. They should hand their salaries and allowances back.
:26:55. > :26:58.You can't ause UKIP of being on the gravy train and the other that we
:26:59. > :27:01.don't claim our attendance allowance because our MEPs are not there. Your
:27:02. > :27:05.attendance allowance because our MEPs are not there. Your
:27:06. > :27:09.there, you are saying we don't turn up You are in the building and claim
:27:10. > :27:12.the allowances. You are not an MEP, UKIP are so ashamed of what their
:27:13. > :27:18.MEPs have done in Brussels, they didn't field a sitting MEP for
:27:19. > :27:22.today's debate. I think each party decides who it wishes to field. I
:27:23. > :27:27.have the honour of being the UKIP representative. I would say by going
:27:28. > :27:35.in the past few weeks, xeeming to me saying - we are sick of the others.
:27:36. > :27:40.-- people saying to me. : We are quite excited. Can I ask Patrick
:27:41. > :27:45.O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord and his party is strong in the polls
:27:46. > :27:50.today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't you also struck a chord with hip
:27:51. > :27:55.crasscy. Two of your MEPs were jailed for expenses and benefits'
:27:56. > :27:59.fraud. Two more asked to pay back ?37,000 for using European funds.
:28:00. > :28:04.Nigel Farage has boosted about getting ?2 million in expenses and
:28:05. > :28:07.he went on to employ his wife as a secretarial allowance after telling
:28:08. > :28:13.other members not to People who do wrong and break the law, go to ja. I
:28:14. > :28:17.have no time. -- go to jail. People who spend money they are not
:28:18. > :28:22.entitled to should pay it back and that's right. But what UKIP does and
:28:23. > :28:26.the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the allowances they are given to pursue
:28:27. > :28:29.the political agenda they put up when elected which is to get Britain
:28:30. > :28:36.out of this superstate. Instead of using it for parliamentary work.
:28:37. > :28:40.Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We were the first British political
:28:41. > :28:45.party to have independent audits of our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way
:28:46. > :28:49.before the expenses crisis blew up. The Maria Miller scandal has of
:28:50. > :28:51.before the expenses crisis blew up. course hit David Cameron and the
:28:52. > :28:57.Conservative Party hard as it should do. But you are right, even in my
:28:58. > :29:00.own region you have UKIP candidates and councillors who have been
:29:01. > :29:04.charged with fraudulently filling out election papers and other shot
:29:05. > :29:09.lifting. Another independent inquiry found he made racist comments. We
:29:10. > :29:13.had a European candidate last week in Hertfordshire who got a parking
:29:14. > :29:19.ticket from the police and called the police fascists. These people
:29:20. > :29:24.aren't here. I'll let you have a quick reply. We
:29:25. > :29:27.can bring up parochial cases. Let him answer. Not so long ago a
:29:28. > :29:32.Liberal Democrat councillor was sent down for firebombing, I don't say
:29:33. > :29:39.they are a bunch of arsonists, but now I think, Nick Clegg might have
:29:40. > :29:44.burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad you pronounced that word carefully.
:29:45. > :29:50.Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they are strongly critical of the EU's
:29:51. > :29:56.financials saying "Errors permist in all main spending areas", the
:29:57. > :30:02.financials are poorly managed. It is a shambles And that's something that
:30:03. > :30:06.all parties agree on. As we agree on expenses, the British parties are at
:30:07. > :30:09.the forefront of transpancy. Every year when we vote for the discharge
:30:10. > :30:14.of the budget, the Conservatives also vote for it but we don't get
:30:15. > :30:18.enough MEPs from other countries to investigate in favour. The Liberal
:30:19. > :30:22.Democrats have put forward to make each Finance Minister, George
:30:23. > :30:26.Osborne and his counterpart to sign a declaration to say all EU money is
:30:27. > :30:31.properly spent in my country. Funnily enough they don't want to do
:30:32. > :30:35.that but I look forward to you confirming that George Osborne will
:30:36. > :30:40.sign it. All the time we hear it is about the money we pay in, about
:30:41. > :30:46.?150 per family per year. What about the money that comes back? ?1. 5
:30:47. > :30:50.billion that comes to Britain's regions because of being in Europe.
:30:51. > :30:55.I myself helped to negotiate a fund to help Britain's food banks to
:30:56. > :30:59.ensure so. Poorest and most destitute people... Isn't it our
:31:00. > :31:01.money that went there first. Can I tell you the Conservative-led
:31:02. > :31:05.Government have blocked us from claiming that money. If you want to
:31:06. > :31:15.have the clearest choice at these European elections, it is between...
:31:16. > :31:22.Tell us why. It affects our rebate. Tony Blair gave away our rebate. He
:31:23. > :31:26.is quite right. Lib Dems fought to make sure that we apply for money to
:31:27. > :31:29.help with flooding. That is what the Tories were blocking. If you want
:31:30. > :31:34.the clearest example at the European elections, the Conservative Party
:31:35. > :31:40.and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers bonuses, and then blocked a Labour
:31:41. > :31:47.victory to get money for free banks. We need to move on to the
:31:48. > :31:52.future. It is important and people are watching. The EU's Justice
:31:53. > :31:55.Minister says that we need to build a United States of Europe with the
:31:56. > :32:03.commission as its government. Is she right? Not at all. But the future,
:32:04. > :32:07.if we take the next ten years, thinks about climate change and the
:32:08. > :32:12.fact that we are not going to hit of the two degrees target. Europe has
:32:13. > :32:15.led and needs to lead towards getting a new sustainable world. It
:32:16. > :32:19.is the political will to use these powers, so she is wrong. It is about
:32:20. > :32:23.the threats from abroad. Labour reforms like getting a commissioner
:32:24. > :32:27.for growth and rebalancing the budget, reforming the common
:32:28. > :32:32.agricultural policy, all of those things will need to happen to make
:32:33. > :32:39.Europe more democratic and open. But against the rise of Brazil and
:32:40. > :32:44.China... We do not need more treaties and powers. We need more
:32:45. > :32:49.action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah Ludford, you would sign up to that?
:32:50. > :32:54.No. Unless they do not think that should concentrate on institutional
:32:55. > :32:59.matters. What we need to do is concentrate on making Europe
:33:00. > :33:06.progrowth and competitive and create more jobs in a competitive world. We
:33:07. > :33:11.need more trade deals to open up our exports, we need to streamline the
:33:12. > :33:15.EU. We need less red tape and Liberal Democrats have done a lot on
:33:16. > :33:19.that. We need better scrutiny of EU legislation at West Munster because
:33:20. > :33:27.the national parties... More powers or less for the EU government? In
:33:28. > :33:35.some areas, I would like to see it slimmed down. Including, I am not
:33:36. > :33:38.sure whether the EU should be funding food banks. I think that is
:33:39. > :33:45.a national responsibility. Dearie me. The EU have to concentrate on
:33:46. > :33:51.the economy and climate change. This is the coalition talking. If we want
:33:52. > :33:55.to fritter away political capital on things which are interfering in
:33:56. > :33:58.national matters, then we do not have the support to tackle those big
:33:59. > :34:06.challenges. Would you still want to join the Euro one-day? Now is not a
:34:07. > :34:12.good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to still be sound, which is why... Did
:34:13. > :34:15.not ask you that. Do you want to join the Euro one-day? If it is a
:34:16. > :34:22.success and it did the economy. Now is not the time but in principle,
:34:23. > :34:29.the idea of a single currency has advantages. That was a yes. We are
:34:30. > :34:33.not ruling it out for ever but not in the foreseeable future. It is not
:34:34. > :34:37.on the horizon. What would our relationship be with Europe in the
:34:38. > :34:41.future if UKIP got its way and we left? We would be trading partners
:34:42. > :34:46.with Europe and we would seek partnership in specific serious. I'd
:34:47. > :34:50.tell you what, can I just say... Would we be Norway? We would be
:34:51. > :34:56.stronger than Norway because we are the biggest export market in the
:34:57. > :35:00.Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke trading agreement reflecting our
:35:01. > :35:05.enormous importance. Not on services, which make up 80% of the
:35:06. > :35:09.economy. We are the biggest export market in the Eurozone. Our biggest
:35:10. > :35:14.exports are services and they would have to agree to free trade and
:35:15. > :35:20.services. They still have not. Can I read you something? Let me read you
:35:21. > :35:23.something. There would be a free trade agreement in place the day
:35:24. > :35:30.after our exit. Germany would demand no less. Who said that? Not somebody
:35:31. > :35:34.from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr business. He is talking about
:35:35. > :35:38.goods, not services. Norway has that and they have no say. You would have
:35:39. > :35:44.to accept the EU rules without any say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let
:35:45. > :35:52.me give you another. Enough. One is enough. Syed Kamall, is it not
:35:53. > :35:55.looking forward pretty much Mission: Impossible for Mr Cameron to get
:35:56. > :36:06.anything like the repatriations of powers that would satisfy your
:36:07. > :36:09.irreconcilables? My father was a bus driver in the 50s and one of the
:36:10. > :36:12.reasons I am here today is because he told me that you can achieve
:36:13. > :36:15.anything if you work hard. He said to me, do not listen to the
:36:16. > :36:19.doubters. When people tell you that something cannot be done, it is a
:36:20. > :36:22.sign of their limitations, not yours. They said that we could not
:36:23. > :36:28.pull Britain out of the bailout mechanism but we did it. He said we
:36:29. > :36:31.could not be to a -- veto European treaty and we did that. They said we
:36:32. > :36:37.would never cut the budget and we did that. The first ever. But
:36:38. > :36:43.overall, we are paying more into the European budget. And they are not
:36:44. > :36:46.sticking to it. More, not less. They say that we cannot achieve reform
:36:47. > :36:51.but we have achieved reform and we are at the forefront of that.
:36:52. > :36:59.Science's father came to Britain because Britain was open and looking
:37:00. > :37:06.outward. What the Conservatives now have, with leaderless Cameron, is an
:37:07. > :37:12.inward looking attitude. They are allowing the rise of UKIP. They are
:37:13. > :37:17.putting so much at risk. People should vote Labour. We are going to
:37:18. > :37:21.have to stop now. No point talking because we are about to finish. I
:37:22. > :37:26.think you all for a spirited debate. I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg
:37:27. > :37:29.will have learned a lot about how to debate. -- Nigel Farage.
:37:30. > :37:32.It's just gone 3pm, and you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say
:37:33. > :37:35.goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics
:37:36. > :37:35.Scotland. Coming up here in twenty minutes,
:37:36. > :37:48.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. After the gloom
:37:49. > :37:52.and doom of austerity, is the Northern Ireland economy finally on
:37:53. > :37:56.the turn? The biggest ever job creation project, backed by Invest
:37:57. > :37:59.NI, was announced on Thursday. The Enterprise minister Arlene
:38:00. > :38:03.Foster joins me live from her constituency.
:38:04. > :38:06.And a right royal affair - with the focus on Sinn Fein's participation
:38:07. > :38:15.in the state visit of President Higgins to Britain, victims of IRA
:38:16. > :38:18.violence say they feel forgotten. -- some victims.
:38:19. > :38:21.The Victims' Commissioner Kathryn Stone is with me.
:38:22. > :38:34.And joining me to discuss all of that and more are commentators Paul
:38:35. > :38:37.McFadden and Professor Rick Wilford. Creating a vibrant economy was the
:38:38. > :38:41.number one priority of the Executive, now it looks like the
:38:42. > :38:46.strategy could be paying dividends. How do we sustain the recovery? The
:38:47. > :38:51.enterprise minister Arlene Foster joins me now. 1000 jobs announced
:38:52. > :38:57.for Belfast last week. Nobody would suggest that is not good news, but
:38:58. > :39:05.are these the high end well-paid positions we need to be securing for
:39:06. > :39:09.the local economy in future? I think what you see through the jobs
:39:10. > :39:13.announced last week is the continuation of our desire to create
:39:14. > :39:17.more jobs for people in Northern Ireland, and they came out of the
:39:18. > :39:23.jobs fund, which was created at the start of the recession to make sure
:39:24. > :39:28.that we had an appropriate level of jobs available. The jobs fund was to
:39:29. > :39:32.try and help companies create jobs, they didn't necessarily have to be
:39:33. > :39:38.high-value jobs, but you will see us now moving to a situation of higher
:39:39. > :39:42.end jobs and indeed we have been bringing in those higher end jobs as
:39:43. > :39:46.well in the jobs fund, because our priority as well as building a
:39:47. > :39:53.vibrant economy is to rebalance the economy and bring a higher level of
:39:54. > :39:58.job creation into Northern Ireland. We saw an interesting contribution
:39:59. > :40:05.from the new chairman of the CBI, he said our higher energy costs are
:40:06. > :40:09.undermining our competitiveness. I do except that the higher energy
:40:10. > :40:11.costs are very much a challenge, and the are a number of things we need
:40:12. > :40:17.to do to tackle them. the are a number of things we need
:40:18. > :40:23.huge amber -- huge constraint on our energy system caused by the fact
:40:24. > :40:25.that we are not able to have the North-South interconnector. That
:40:26. > :40:30.costs the consumer in Northern Ireland ?7 million per animal, and
:40:31. > :40:38.overall it costs ?30 million on the island. -- per annum. At present we
:40:39. > :40:44.have occurred straight on our system, and religiously it taken off
:40:45. > :40:53.our system. -- we need to see that constraint taken of our system. That
:40:54. > :40:56.ties in with what the new chairman of the CBI was saying, he says the
:40:57. > :41:01.CBI wants to see that second North-South interconnector is
:41:02. > :41:11.happening as soon as possible. When can we expect it? As I understand it
:41:12. > :41:14.planning has been -- a planning application has been put into our
:41:15. > :41:19.system, and then there is a similar one going into the Republic of
:41:20. > :41:23.Ireland's planning process, so we want to make sure we can assist in
:41:24. > :41:26.any way to make sure that that goes through as quickly as possible,
:41:27. > :41:31.because the sooner we have the North-South interconnector, the
:41:32. > :41:36.faster that those savings can be passed onto consumers, both and
:41:37. > :41:40.business. Are you satisfied that all parties in the Executive are
:41:41. > :41:43.committed to making that happen? There is some dispute as I
:41:44. > :41:46.understand it as to whether or not the interconnector should be
:41:47. > :41:52.overground or underground, and underground is more expensive of
:41:53. > :41:55.course. I do understand that those living close to the root of the
:41:56. > :41:59.interconnector will have concerns, that some of
:42:00. > :42:02.interconnector will have concerns, that they want the interconnector
:42:03. > :42:06.pot underground but that again would add to costs. Some estimates believe
:42:07. > :42:12.it would be as much as three to five times as expensive to put in place,
:42:13. > :42:18.and any cost, and this is something I don't think that people understand
:42:19. > :42:20.fully, any cost that is incurred in relation to the North-South
:42:21. > :42:24.interconnector is then passed on to the consumer, so if that were to
:42:25. > :42:28.happen it would be passed onto the consumer, and as well as that there
:42:29. > :42:32.is some technical problems aligned with the underground laying of
:42:33. > :42:36.cables for such a long distance as well. So we believe the best way is
:42:37. > :42:39.to get on with this North-South interconnector and certainly we
:42:40. > :42:45.would hope all of the parties in the Executive support that view. Any
:42:46. > :42:49.further delay of course could simply compound the situation that we are
:42:50. > :42:53.in, it could work of further investment. What some commentators
:42:54. > :42:58.have been saying is that data centres are hugely dependent for
:42:59. > :43:01.example on energy and energy use. And the price of energy matters a
:43:02. > :43:06.lot to them. That is why at Microsoft and Google, high tech
:43:07. > :43:12.employers, simply cannot make the numbers add up. That is why we not
:43:13. > :43:17.seeing investment companies like that. They are more likely to be
:43:18. > :43:21.looking at the corporation tax issue as opposed to the energy costs
:43:22. > :43:27.issue. We believe that is why we have seen them locate in places like
:43:28. > :43:31.Dublin, and indeed an enterprise zone has now been allocated as a
:43:32. > :43:36.pilot enterprise zone in Coleraine, and we're hopeful, in fact we know
:43:37. > :43:43.there is going to be a data centre in Coleraine, the cause we invested
:43:44. > :43:49.in the transatlantic link between America and Northern Ireland. So we
:43:50. > :43:52.have invested very heavily in our telecommunications links, it is
:43:53. > :43:55.important we also have the appropriate electricity support as
:43:56. > :43:59.well, and we're working hard with the regulator and the systems
:44:00. > :44:03.operator to make sure that we do have the appropriate level in days.
:44:04. > :44:06.What about the challenge facing you and your Executive colleagues as far
:44:07. > :44:15.as East versus West in terms of invest that? We know that the
:44:16. > :44:22.difference between unemployment East and West of the Bann is huge. This
:44:23. > :44:27.must be an issue you are sensitive to, but how do you encourage
:44:28. > :44:34.companies to come to Northern Ireland and secondly encourage them
:44:35. > :44:38.to invest West of the Bann? That is about partnership, working with a
:44:39. > :44:43.particular regions involved, and if you take my own region for example,
:44:44. > :44:49.we have developed what is called a smart region proposal, whereby we
:44:50. > :44:54.are putting ourselves between the public sector, the private sector,
:44:55. > :44:57.the south-west colleges, hospitals, we are all working together to have
:44:58. > :45:01.a proposition to try and draw in inward investor that, but also
:45:02. > :45:05.supporting our indigenous companies as well, and I think that is
:45:06. > :45:11.important because I think some of our best examples of growth have
:45:12. > :45:14.been our indigenous companies. When you say there has been little or no
:45:15. > :45:28.investment in the west of the province, I think for example of
:45:29. > :45:34.weather has been. We're trying to draw in more inward investment, but
:45:35. > :45:39.also really support our indigenous companies because they have given us
:45:40. > :45:44.a lot of growth. You have got a pretty big brief in enterprise trade
:45:45. > :45:48.and investment, including tourism, and I know that is something you are
:45:49. > :45:51.passionate about. The Giro d'Italia is on its way, and we have seen the
:45:52. > :45:57.build up to that of the expectations. But there are still
:45:58. > :46:01.challenges as far as tourism is concerned, like for example securing
:46:02. > :46:06.a greater breadth of direct flights into and out of Northern Ireland.
:46:07. > :46:14.That remains something in your inbox, doesn't it? Very much so, and
:46:15. > :46:19.the Giro d'Italia's coming very soon, we have the circuit of Ireland
:46:20. > :46:22.Rally, the Northwest 200 happening. We have been concentrating
:46:23. > :46:25.Rally, the Northwest 200 happening. bringing large-scale events to
:46:26. > :46:28.Northern Ireland. Delighted that the Irish open is coming back to
:46:29. > :46:34.Northern Ireland next year, with Royal County Down, so we have been
:46:35. > :46:40.spending a lot of time building up our events strategy over this past
:46:41. > :46:45.period of time, but of course we need direct flights in? I spent a
:46:46. > :46:50.lot of time also talking to tourism sector and indeed I will be wishing
:46:51. > :46:53.the number one priority in that respect, and that is Canada. We
:46:54. > :47:00.believe there should be a Canadian leg. There has not been for some
:47:01. > :47:03.time, and it is one I am very strongly of the view that we will be
:47:04. > :47:11.able to see over the line in the next period of time. Finally, Peter
:47:12. > :47:17.Robinson's speech yesterday afternoon, he talked about reaching
:47:18. > :47:24.out to non-core Unionists. Looking for converts to Unionism. Who is he
:47:25. > :47:27.thinking about? He is talking about those who traditionally from their
:47:28. > :47:32.background may not have seen themselves as Unionists in the
:47:33. > :47:35.past, but increasingly are seeing themselves as such in the future
:47:36. > :47:39.because they see Northern Ireland's place in the union as being of
:47:40. > :47:43.benefit to them personally and of benefit to the whole of Northern
:47:44. > :47:47.Ireland in general. We will continue to reach out, we will be positive
:47:48. > :47:52.about Northern Ireland's place in the union, it is what we will enter
:47:53. > :47:54.the next period of election saying, because we believe it is best for
:47:55. > :47:57.all of the people of Northern Ireland.
:47:58. > :48:00.Arlene Foster, thank you for joining us.
:48:01. > :48:04.Thank you. Let's see what my guests of the day
:48:05. > :48:11.make of that. Paul McFadden and Rick Wilford are with me.
:48:12. > :48:15.make of that. Paul McFadden and Rick Rick, the whole issue of securing
:48:16. > :48:19.investment, securing jobs. But not just any jobs. File U-boat jobs.
:48:20. > :48:25.Some have been critical that this is about achieving targets, more than
:48:26. > :48:33.achieving quality investment. -- valuable -- valuable jobs. Arlene
:48:34. > :48:37.mentioned the jobs fund, but they are not the sort of high end jobs
:48:38. > :48:44.you were talking about. I was away for a few days last week but when I
:48:45. > :48:47.came back and look at the Belfast Telegraph poll of young people, two
:48:48. > :48:55.out of three say they see their future out of Northern Ireland. Our
:48:56. > :48:56.greatest strength is the human capital and the skills and
:48:57. > :49:01.intelligence that young people have. capital and the skills and
:49:02. > :49:08.We cannot afford for two out of three people to move out of Northern
:49:09. > :49:12.Ireland. We have two market jobs that are attractive to them. -- a
:49:13. > :49:16.jobs market that is valuable and attractive to them. I don't think
:49:17. > :49:21.these kinds of announcements like we heard last week guarantee that, they
:49:22. > :49:25.are relatively low-paid, yes, they are jobs and they are welcome, but
:49:26. > :49:31.it is not really the kind of platform we need to retain our best
:49:32. > :49:35.and our brightest. So it is a valuable investment on one level,
:49:36. > :49:40.Paul, ?18 million in salaries and wages per annum, but at the same
:49:41. > :49:49.time not the kind of high end jobs we need to be attracting? I think we
:49:50. > :49:57.need to upscale the available workforce here, and the minister
:49:58. > :50:00.mentioned reasons why Company is like Microsoft and Google might move
:50:01. > :50:12.to Dublin and places over the border. -- we need to up-skill. In
:50:13. > :50:16.terms of doing something about it, the minister mentioned the
:50:17. > :50:22.enterprise zone, the pilot enterprise zone, which was for
:50:23. > :50:25.Coleraine, and we will see what the outcome of that is, whether it
:50:26. > :50:30.delivers jobs of the quality and quantity we would like to see, and
:50:31. > :50:36.whether that can be rolled out to other areas which are in greater
:50:37. > :50:41.need. You live and work in the North West, what about that East versus
:50:42. > :50:49.West debate? Two Martin McGuinness mentioned the possibility of other
:50:50. > :50:55.announcements coming in the future, and we will wait to see what is
:50:56. > :50:59.delivered. I wanted to say something about the enterprise zones. She's
:51:00. > :51:04.been tried for many years -- these have been tried. Their record is
:51:05. > :51:09.patchy at best. They tend to suck in investment from the immediate area
:51:10. > :51:14.rather than creating new jobs. It's been a right royal week for
:51:15. > :51:25.some. Gareth Gordon looks back at the week in 60 seconds.
:51:26. > :51:30.All eyes on Britain this week for the first Irish presidential state
:51:31. > :51:34.visit. We have a fresh canvas on which to sketch our fresh hopes and
:51:35. > :51:38.to advance our overlapping ambitions. We will remember our
:51:39. > :51:45.past, but we shall no longer allow our past two inch near -- in snare
:51:46. > :51:50.our future. Leading figures attended a banquet at Windsor Castle, but
:51:51. > :51:58.must focus was on this man. I will observe the protocols. Lord Tebbit,
:51:59. > :52:04.injured in the writing bombing, -- Brighton bombing. It is highly
:52:05. > :52:10.dangerous for Lord Tebbit to make those kinds of remarks given the
:52:11. > :52:14.security situation. Could the era of free prescriptions be over? Many of
:52:15. > :52:18.us who receive free prescriptions can well afford them, and at the
:52:19. > :52:21.same time there are many out there who require drugs and specialist
:52:22. > :52:28.drugs and drugs for cancer, and we cannot afford to buy them.
:52:29. > :52:29.Loyal toasts, state banquets and another handshake with the Queen.
:52:30. > :52:32.Martin another handshake with the Queen.
:52:33. > :52:36.state visit by Michael D Higgins "will be noted for its spirit of
:52:37. > :52:39.generosity and peace-making". But for all the pageantry and symbolism,
:52:40. > :52:43.not everyone was happy at the Deputy First Minister's presence at
:52:44. > :52:45.Windsor. Relatives of people murdered by republicans demonstrated
:52:46. > :52:58.outside the castle, including a group representing victims of the
:52:59. > :53:01.Birmingham pub bombings. Who is thinking about us? As it seems to
:53:02. > :53:09.us, it appears that our politicians wish that they had buried ours
:53:10. > :53:13.alongside our dead. Julie Hambleton, whose sister Maxine was one of 21
:53:14. > :53:16.people killed in the Birmingham pub bombings in 1974.
:53:17. > :53:22.With me now is the Victims' Commissioner Kathryn Stone.
:53:23. > :53:32.With me now is the Victims' talk about Lord Tebbit's comments.
:53:33. > :53:37.He appeared to invite or say that he would support an attack on Martin
:53:38. > :53:44.McGuinness. But at a time like this week, do victims feel forgotten in
:53:45. > :53:49.the bigger debate? I don't think victims should ever be historical --
:53:50. > :53:52.ahistorical postscript to any of this, we need to think very
:53:53. > :53:58.carefully about how we can support victims through these frugal times.
:53:59. > :54:03.Last week was a very important, historic, culture is significant
:54:04. > :54:09.since -- culturally significant week. It demonstrates how the past
:54:10. > :54:12.and present collide, as Julie Hambleton was protesting outside
:54:13. > :54:20.Windsor Castle and feeling left out of everything going on. Another
:54:21. > :54:24.historic and significant thing was Seamus Daly being taken into
:54:25. > :54:29.Dungannon court charged with offences in relation to the Omagh
:54:30. > :54:34.bomb. So there was another example of how the past is colliding again
:54:35. > :54:40.with the present and how we need to think about supporting victims
:54:41. > :54:47.through all of that. That is a case we cannot discuss, but clearly the
:54:48. > :54:53.point that you make is correct. To what extent you feel that Lord
:54:54. > :54:57.Tebbit's comments were representative of how victims might
:54:58. > :55:02.feel and how victims may then have felt about the reaction that I got
:55:03. > :55:06.on Thursday night from Theresa Villiers who said what he had said,
:55:07. > :55:09.was shocking and unacceptable and highly dangerous?
:55:10. > :55:14.There is much to celebrate about what happened this week, many people
:55:15. > :55:17.are very congratulatory and celebratory about it, and that is
:55:18. > :55:23.proper, but there is not a great deal to celebrate or beacon
:55:24. > :55:27.structure later read about is paralysed or indeed if your child
:55:28. > :55:33.was shot by a stray black -- plastic bullet fired by somebody in the
:55:34. > :55:37.British Army. These are very difficult times for victims. There
:55:38. > :55:42.will be victims who said that despite the pain they continue to
:55:43. > :55:48.feel, they cannot hold the process back. You hear such a huge range of
:55:49. > :55:51.opinion from the victims that you meet some who would perhaps feel
:55:52. > :55:54.that Lord Tebbit was speaking for them, some who would feel that they
:55:55. > :56:02.absolutely was not speaking for them. If we think about some of the
:56:03. > :56:04.groups in England, justice for the 21 who Julie Hambleton represents,
:56:05. > :56:09.groups in England, justice for the and Colin and Wendy Parry, their
:56:10. > :56:14.views are diametrically opposite. Collett and Wendy Parry do an
:56:15. > :56:22.enormous amount of work in trying to counter extremism and terrorism.
:56:23. > :56:26.--: And Wendy Parry. -- Colin and Wendy Parry. We have people who say,
:56:27. > :56:30.let's move forward, let's put all this behind us, and others who say,
:56:31. > :56:35.absolutely not. What we want is acknowledgement, truth, justice, and
:56:36. > :56:41.some people also want reparation for what happened to them? --
:56:42. > :56:45.reparation. It is impossible to achieve both
:56:46. > :56:49.those desires, that is the difficulty presumably for you as the
:56:50. > :56:54.Victims' Commissioner. I don't think that moving forward in terms of
:56:55. > :56:58.society and peace and reconciliation that moving forward in terms of
:56:59. > :57:04.the needs and the wants of victims. I think we can do an awful lot, and
:57:05. > :57:06.I think there have been a number of very serious attempts to put on the
:57:07. > :57:15.table things that could support Vic Thames, for example -- and it is
:57:16. > :57:19.very frustrating for victims to know that politicians are wanting to hear
:57:20. > :57:26.their views and taking their views in in forming processes, but then
:57:27. > :57:29.nothing happens in that. We had a range of politicians who wanted to
:57:30. > :57:37.meet with us, after the process we have not seen any that are major
:57:38. > :57:41.differences of opinion within the offices of this First Minister and
:57:42. > :57:47.Deputy First Minister on a huge range of issues. The thing that has
:57:48. > :57:50.affected their unanimity of voice, unanimity of purpose on the victim
:57:51. > :57:54.affected their unanimity of voice, 's pupils issue? For our experience
:57:55. > :58:00.we have had a very positive experience. The First Minister
:58:01. > :58:02.Deputy First Minister accepted the 55 recommendations made about the
:58:03. > :58:06.victim 's pupils and survivors' service within a week, and have
:58:07. > :58:13.committed to giving Vic and the very best services they can.
:58:14. > :58:17.Thank you for joining us. A few final thoughts from my guest
:58:18. > :58:23.commentators. Rick, let us talk about the lessons
:58:24. > :58:27.that we should take out of the experience of the past week, with a
:58:28. > :58:32.presidential visit to the UK, and Martin McGuinness's part in it. What
:58:33. > :58:37.for you are the key point is we need to take on board? It is another
:58:38. > :58:39.success for statecraft on behalf of both the British and Irish States,
:58:40. > :58:45.that they pulled this off, both the British and Irish States,
:58:46. > :58:49.another sign a few like that we are beginning to move forward, we are
:58:50. > :58:51.taking relatively small steps, symbolically very important.
:58:52. > :59:01.Relating that to the victim 's pupils issue, I don't say there is
:59:02. > :59:05.any necessary contradiction, I don't think that the two unnecessarily
:59:06. > :59:14.contradictory. There is statecraft on the once -- and and on the other
:59:15. > :59:18.hand -- there is the low politics in terms of meeting the needs of
:59:19. > :59:26.survivors, and that is the priority. I think it is a case of both and
:59:27. > :59:31.rather than either or. You take the fact that for example there is still
:59:32. > :59:37.controversy about who constitutes a victim exactly. There is this kind
:59:38. > :59:48.of kernel of anxiety and conflict over this issue. But we can model
:59:49. > :59:52.on, and -- I think, -- model on. The idea of a republican leader going to
:59:53. > :59:58.Windsor Castle dressed in white tie and tails, standing for the national
:59:59. > :00:04.anthem would have been anathema not just to Republicans but nationalists
:00:05. > :00:07.a few years ago, but I was struck by a line of the Queen saying we are
:00:08. > :00:11.entering a period of historical resonance. I think we are living in
:00:12. > :00:19.a time of political resonance, and the things we saw happening, words
:00:20. > :00:24.back up by deeds, I think we kind of guide us through maybe the next few
:00:25. > :00:32.weeks, months and years. I thought it was a very interesting and
:00:33. > :00:35.significant week. We're taking a break for a couple of weeks for
:00:36. > :00:38.Easter, but we'll be back on Sunday May fourth. For now, bye-bye
:00:39. > :00:48.particular candidates. Back to you, Andrew.
:00:49. > :00:50.The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the London Marathon, and MPs leave
:00:51. > :01:01.Westminster for their Easter break. Let's discuss what's coming up in
:01:02. > :01:05.the Week Ahead. We will get more of what we have
:01:06. > :01:11.just seen. Let's look back on the debate. What did we learn from the
:01:12. > :01:14.argument is? That it is going to bore and irritate whole lot of
:01:15. > :01:18.people, this election campaign. Four parties shouting at each other about
:01:19. > :01:21.things that most people do not know much about. They know very
:01:22. > :01:24.things that most people do not know about how the European Parliament
:01:25. > :01:33.works, what an MEP is supposed to do. A lot of heat and not a lot of
:01:34. > :01:37.light. I've updated well, all of them, but the net effect is not
:01:38. > :01:44.going to encourage people to go out and vote and not many do. One thing
:01:45. > :01:48.that struck me was that on Europe, the Labour and Lib Dem positions are
:01:49. > :01:54.not that far apart. They are pretty much the same. And yet the knocks
:01:55. > :01:56.lots of each other. I suppose they feel that they had to do that
:01:57. > :02:03.because that is the format. I'd agree with Polly. Their word UKIP
:02:04. > :02:09.and the Tories to attack two we try to make it exciting, and we know the
:02:10. > :02:10.issues are important. But people out there have not heard of these
:02:11. > :02:15.individuals. It is there have not heard of these
:02:16. > :02:18.exciting. That is worrying because these are huge national questions
:02:19. > :02:25.for us. We need to find a way of making it more fun. People may not
:02:26. > :02:30.know these MEPs, they may not know the detail of the debate, but it is
:02:31. > :02:34.an issue on which people have strong opinions. It is a visceral thing for
:02:35. > :02:36.many people. Especially on the immigration issue. The debate took
:02:37. > :02:43.off and became more vociferous at that point. To a large extent, you
:02:44. > :02:47.wonder whether not only this European election but the eventual
:02:48. > :02:51.referendum will be a referendum on the issue of immigration and free
:02:52. > :02:54.movement. If we did not learn much from the argument, the thing we did
:02:55. > :03:02.learn is that the structure of these televised debate influences the
:03:03. > :03:08.outcome. One of the reasons that Nigel Farage did well in the debate
:03:09. > :03:12.is that in a two-man debate, each man has as good a chance as the
:03:13. > :03:17.other. If it is four people, one man can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn
:03:18. > :03:21.did well for a man who is not an elected politician yet. At times, 40
:03:22. > :03:24.came under attack and did not hold the line as well as you would
:03:25. > :03:28.expect. Does that create a perverse incentive for the main parties to
:03:29. > :03:33.agree to a four way debate before the general election? I do not think
:03:34. > :03:37.the David Cameron has nearly as much to worry about from a televised
:03:38. > :03:40.debate in the run-up to the elections than his spin doctors
:03:41. > :03:44.believe. When you put him up against Ed Miliband, and we have not
:03:45. > :03:50.actually seen Ed Miliband in that format, I think he will come off all
:03:51. > :03:55.right. This is an election which the polls would have us believe that the
:03:56. > :04:01.battle for first place is between UKIP and labour. It certainly is.
:04:02. > :04:04.Obviously, it is neck and neck and we will not know until we are
:04:05. > :04:10.closer. And it matters a lot to both of them. If Mr Miliband does not
:04:11. > :04:15.come first, that is not good news for the main opposition at this
:04:16. > :04:20.stage. Except to some extent all of the people will put it to one side
:04:21. > :04:26.and say that this is a bizarre election. A plague on both your
:04:27. > :04:32.houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not clear how much that translates into
:04:33. > :04:37.the next election. It is not too disastrous for Labour. It would be
:04:38. > :04:42.better if they came first. If Mr Miliband comes first, not a problem,
:04:43. > :04:47.but it becomes second and UKIP soars away, what are the consequences? I
:04:48. > :04:50.think there is a widespread expectation already at Westminster
:04:51. > :04:56.that UKIP is very likely to come first. If Ed Miliband fails to come
:04:57. > :05:00.first, there will not be a great deal of shock in the West Mr
:05:01. > :05:03.village. Else think what is remarkable about Ed Miliband is that
:05:04. > :05:09.despite consistently poor personal leadership approval ratings, the
:05:10. > :05:15.overall Labour poll is consistently very high. We have seen that budget
:05:16. > :05:20.blip, it seems to have taken us back to where we were before. Leadership
:05:21. > :05:24.is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was miles behind James Callaghan but in
:05:25. > :05:29.the end, it was the party politics that mattered more. If Mr Cameron
:05:30. > :05:34.comes third and the Tories come third, maybe a poor third, is it
:05:35. > :05:39.headless chicken time on the Tory backbenchers? It has often been said
:05:40. > :05:45.that the Tory Party has two modes, complacency and panic. You will see
:05:46. > :05:51.them shift into panic mode. By June, I think. Many of the stories in the
:05:52. > :05:55.sun will be about David Cameron's personal leadership and his grip on
:05:56. > :05:59.the party. There will be pressure on conference by the time that comes
:06:00. > :06:05.around. It is a natural consequence of being the incumbent party. The
:06:06. > :06:10.Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls today. It was widely thought that in
:06:11. > :06:17.the first and second debates, Nigel Farage won both. In retrospect, was
:06:18. > :06:23.the challenge strategy a disaster for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was
:06:24. > :06:30.because he had nothing to lose. But he is lower in the polls than when
:06:31. > :06:31.he started. He has not lost a great deal. The polls were quite often
:06:32. > :06:37.that low. I think deal. The polls were quite often
:06:38. > :06:42.thing to do. It raised his profile. It made him the leading party in.
:06:43. > :06:48.That may be a difficult place to be. That is how you end up with 7%
:06:49. > :06:51.in the polls. The reason he is fighting with Labour is that he
:06:52. > :06:55.knows very well that all he has to do is to get his votes back that
:06:56. > :07:01.have gone to Labour and labour have to fight hard to make sure that they
:07:02. > :07:06.do not go back. Every party looks to where it is going to get it
:07:07. > :07:10.support. If it is a wipe-out for the Lib Dems, and they lose all their
:07:11. > :07:17.MEPs, not saying that is going to happen but you could not rule it out
:07:18. > :07:20.for, are we back in Nick Clegg leadership crisis territory? One of
:07:21. > :07:24.the astonishing things about this Parliament is the relative absence
:07:25. > :07:26.of leadership speculation about Nick Clegg will stop at the first couple
:07:27. > :07:29.of years, his position seems Clegg will stop at the first couple
:07:30. > :07:33.tricky, but maybe that is because Chris Hughton is gone and he was the
:07:34. > :07:36.only plausible candidate. This cable is not getting any younger, to put
:07:37. > :07:41.it delicately. That was not delegate at all! And we have reached a
:07:42. > :07:44.desperate stage where Danny Alexander is talked about as a
:07:45. > :07:48.candidate. That was not delegate either! Maybe he is holding onto
:07:49. > :07:54.power the lack of alternatives. If they ended up with no MEPs at all,
:07:55. > :08:00.and a less than double digits score... With Danny Alexander, it is
:08:01. > :08:03.clear that Scotland, one way or another, will be moving further
:08:04. > :08:10.away. You could not have the leader of a national party be a Scot. But
:08:11. > :08:14.he does not have the following in the party. I'm glad you're liberal
:08:15. > :08:19.attitudes to immigration extends to me. I would not have been here for
:08:20. > :08:25.43 years. There will be leadership talk after that holes. It has been
:08:26. > :08:30.bubbling in the background, but you have to talk to the grass roots
:08:31. > :08:35.activists. -- after the polls. The grass roots activists are
:08:36. > :08:38.despairing. If things are bad, they lose their network of activists, who
:08:39. > :08:42.they need to fight the next election. I think you mean, not that
:08:43. > :08:46.you could have a Scot, but that it would be more difficult to have a
:08:47. > :08:52.Scot from a Scottish constituency. Absolutely. I think a Scottish
:08:53. > :08:59.constituency, so many things will be different. Or to hold the great
:09:00. > :09:03.offices of state. Let's come onto the Crown Prosecution Service is. It
:09:04. > :09:06.is an English institution. Where does the CPS and after losing yet
:09:07. > :09:11.another high-profile case come this time Nigel Evans? They had nine
:09:12. > :09:17.counts against him and they did not win on one. It is obviously very
:09:18. > :09:20.embarrassing. They will have a bit of explain to do but I guess the
:09:21. > :09:24.threshold for bringing these cases is high. There has to be considered
:09:25. > :09:30.at least a 50-50 chance of actually winning the case. We do not know
:09:31. > :09:33.what went on behind the scenes when they weighed up whether to bring the
:09:34. > :09:37.case. Nigel Evans makes an interesting point about whether it
:09:38. > :09:43.is legitimate to bundle together a number of stand-alone relatively
:09:44. > :09:47.weak accusations, and when you put them together to militantly, the CPS
:09:48. > :09:51.uses that to make a case. Is that a legitimate thing to do? He was a
:09:52. > :09:59.high-profile figure, not just because he was a Tory MP. He was the
:10:00. > :10:04.deputy speaker of the House. And yet the CPS are certainly the police, to
:10:05. > :10:07.begin with they did not have that many people to testify against him.
:10:08. > :10:10.begin with they did not have that And then they trawled for more. You
:10:11. > :10:14.wonder if they would have done that if it was not for the fact that he
:10:15. > :10:17.was a public figure. The trouble is, they are dammed if they do and
:10:18. > :10:20.dammed if they do not. Particularly with politicians and the reputation
:10:21. > :10:24.they have these days, if there is any suggestion that they let
:10:25. > :10:28.somebody off because they are a high-profile politician, and they
:10:29. > :10:33.are saying that about Cyril Smith, that is the accusation. A strange
:10:34. > :10:37.story. Most unlikely and very bizarre. But that is the accusation.
:10:38. > :10:44.If there is any with of that, I can see why the CPS says, we better let
:10:45. > :10:47.the courts try this one. Also, they are in trouble overrated cases
:10:48. > :10:55.because their success rate on bringing people to court for rape is
:10:56. > :10:57.so thin. When it looked as if his accusers were not really accusing
:10:58. > :11:02.him, it looks quite weak. You cannot help but
:11:03. > :11:04.him, it looks quite weak. You cannot falling over backwards now in
:11:05. > :11:09.high-profile cases because of their abject and total failure over Jimmy
:11:10. > :11:12.Savile. I think this is exactly the kind of case that happens when you
:11:13. > :11:17.are trying to make a point or redeem a reputation or change a culture.
:11:18. > :11:21.All of these big things. As opposed to what criminal justice is supposed
:11:22. > :11:23.to be about, which is specific crimes and specific evidence
:11:24. > :11:27.matching those crimes. The CPS has no copper a fleet joined in this
:11:28. > :11:31.list of public and situations that has taken a fall over the past five
:11:32. > :11:34.or six years. We have had Parliament, the newspapers, the
:11:35. > :11:37.police will stop I think this is as bad a humiliation as any of those
:11:38. > :11:41.because it is Innocent people suffering. You are the most recent,
:11:42. > :11:46.being a lobby correspondent in Westminster, and we now see on
:11:47. > :11:47.Channel 4 News that basically, Westminster is twinned with Sodom
:11:48. > :11:55.and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this Westminster is twinned with Sodom
:11:56. > :11:58.true? It is all rather the red. I do not move in those circles. And you
:11:59. > :12:04.were in the lobby at one stage? Not that long ago. Is it right. Is it
:12:05. > :12:08.right to be twinned with Sodom and Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his
:12:09. > :12:15.opinion. Being technically a member of the lobby, I can observe some of
:12:16. > :12:20.this stuff. And what surprises me is that journalists, when the complain
:12:21. > :12:24.about Sodom and Gomorrah, write themselves out of it. It is as if it
:12:25. > :12:29.is just MPs. We are unalloyed and unvarnished. Actually, the fact is
:12:30. > :12:33.it has always been a bit like Sodom and tomorrow. Of course it has.
:12:34. > :12:37.Think about how we have had wave after wave of stories and scandals.
:12:38. > :12:42.But less of it recently. It was I think that attitudes have slightly
:12:43. > :12:46.changed. I'll also think that if you get 650 people in any organisation
:12:47. > :12:50.changed. I'll also think that if you and you put that much scrutiny on
:12:51. > :12:57.them, you will find an awful lot going on in most people's officers
:12:58. > :14:00.of a scurrilous nature. Even in the BBC
:14:01. > :14:03.In 2013, the public voted for a portrait of