:00:38. > :00:42.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:43. > :00:49.After suggestions that David Cameron was diluting his EU negotiation
:00:50. > :00:51.demands, Downing Street insists he's still pushing for curbs
:00:52. > :00:55.But is there any evidence that the rest of Europe is listening?
:00:56. > :00:58.Jeremy Corbyn says Stop The War is "one of the most important
:00:59. > :01:00.democratic campaigns of modern times".
:01:01. > :01:08.And why all the fuss that he went to its Christmas fund-raiser?
:01:09. > :01:10.Yvette Cooper - one-time Labour leadership contender -
:01:11. > :01:21.And coming up here... for refugees and migrants
:01:22. > :01:23.As the political wrangling continues over legacy,
:01:24. > :01:25.we'll hear the thoughts of the Victims' Commissioner.
:01:26. > :01:27.And could Stormont be about to tax sugary drinks?
:01:28. > :01:37.And with me for this final Sunday Politics of 2015,
:01:38. > :01:40.Tom Newton Dunn of The Sun, Helen Lewis of the New Statesman
:01:41. > :01:43.and Sam Coates of The Times - the Dasher, Dancer and Prancer
:01:44. > :01:48.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:49. > :01:51.Downing Street insists that David Cameron will still push
:01:52. > :01:54.for curbs on in-work benefits for EU migrants in the UK,
:01:55. > :01:58.despite earlier briefings to the contrary.
:01:59. > :02:01.The Prime Minister will head to a crucial summit later this week
:02:02. > :02:05.to make his case for a reformed British relationship with the EU.
:02:06. > :02:07.However, several newspapers, citing official guidance,
:02:08. > :02:11.report that Mr Cameron has failed to convince other European leaders
:02:12. > :02:17.and is already preparing a fallback to replace his original demand
:02:18. > :02:22.for a four-year wait for in-work benefits.
:02:23. > :02:24.The Sunday Times headline says "Prime Minister 'caves in'
:02:25. > :02:30.The Sunday Telegraph describes it as "Cameron's climbdown
:02:31. > :02:36.And the Independent on Sunday goes for the same metaphor,
:02:37. > :02:43.describing it as "Cameron's big EU climbdown".
:02:44. > :02:45.Let's speak now to Conservative MP Peter Lilley.
:02:46. > :02:48.He was a Cabinet minister in the Conservative governments
:02:49. > :02:55.of both Margaret Thatcher and John Major.
:02:56. > :03:00.Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister is thought by many of your
:03:01. > :03:06.colleagues not to be asking for a lot, yet he might not even get what
:03:07. > :03:13.he's asking for. Could he sell a watered-down deal to his party? It
:03:14. > :03:20.is more a question of whether he can sell whatever comes out of it to the
:03:21. > :03:26.country. There are lots of Labour MPs who want to see democratic
:03:27. > :03:29.powers returned to this country from the European institutions. That's
:03:30. > :03:35.the key issue as far as I'm concerned. He will clearly get some
:03:36. > :03:40.things because a lot of this has been pre-negotiated, so he will get
:03:41. > :03:43.something to say about removing the phrase ever closer union, something
:03:44. > :03:49.to do with benefits, even if actually it is something we could do
:03:50. > :03:55.anyway ourselves, like apply a four-year wait to British citizens
:03:56. > :03:58.as well as foreigners. There will be something, the question is will it
:03:59. > :04:04.be substantial? Will it include a return of powers to this country to
:04:05. > :04:11.govern itself? What major powers is he asking to be repatriated?
:04:12. > :04:25.Publicly, there doesn't seem to be anything on the list, unless some
:04:26. > :04:29.change in relation to free movement of Labour is somewhere up his
:04:30. > :04:33.sleeve. I do occasionally hear rumours that he will come back with
:04:34. > :04:38.some genuine return of powers, and if he does I will be dancing on the
:04:39. > :04:46.rooftops. We have no evidence that's even part of the negotiation. That
:04:47. > :04:50.is certainly disappointing, it is rather a strange strategy not to ask
:04:51. > :04:58.for the principal thing we want and yet still hope to get it. Because we
:04:59. > :05:02.have, over a series of treaties which David Cameron and I voted
:05:03. > :05:11.against, conceded a whole lot of powers to Europe beyond what is
:05:12. > :05:15.necessary. The trading area requires some common lawmaking, but beyond
:05:16. > :05:21.that we concede a lot of powers. We would like to start the process of
:05:22. > :05:26.getting those powers back. If we cannot, we will be on a slippery
:05:27. > :05:31.slope to creating a single state. The reason we are in the position we
:05:32. > :05:38.are, having to renegotiate, is that the countries of the eurozone are on
:05:39. > :05:45.the road to creating a single state. There's never been a currency
:05:46. > :05:50.without a single state to run it. They are forced, because they have
:05:51. > :05:55.created this currency, without a government to make it work. The
:05:56. > :05:59.question is can we be outside that process, can removing the opposite
:06:00. > :06:06.direction and get powers back, or will we be sucked on the slipstream?
:06:07. > :06:10.If we cannot overcome the two doctrines of Europe that everybody
:06:11. > :06:14.is heading in the same direction, albeit at different speeds, and
:06:15. > :06:18.powers can only ever go to the central institutions and never come
:06:19. > :06:22.back to the States, if we cannot break those two doctrines as far as
:06:23. > :06:28.Britain is concerned, he will not really have achieved anything. I
:06:29. > :06:32.understand all of that. A quick final question, if he comes back
:06:33. > :06:40.with even less than he's asking for, would you vote to leave? If he
:06:41. > :06:47.doesn't come back with some increase in power to ourselves, I feel for
:06:48. > :06:54.the first time in my life I would be voting to leave. I voted to stay in
:06:55. > :06:57.1975 but I would be voting to leave in those circumstances.
:06:58. > :07:04.Tom, it is turning into a real mess for the Government, is it not? A
:07:05. > :07:08.huge mess. There was an exposer yesterday, of the 11pm call every
:07:09. > :07:19.night, coordinated with the Downing Street switchboard which the
:07:20. > :07:23.ministers have got to tune into. I can only imagine the horror that
:07:24. > :07:27.went on last night during the call, which still happens, over the
:07:28. > :07:32.headlines this morning. I think what's happened here is the
:07:33. > :07:38.four-year ban on migrants' benefit is dead. You think he's just not
:07:39. > :07:43.going to get it? It died I would say at least a month ago in the Chatham
:07:44. > :07:47.House speech. He said so in his speech saying, here is what I want,
:07:48. > :07:52.but by the way I will also accept what you choose to offer me. The
:07:53. > :07:56.papers reported the next day that it was dead in the water, so we are
:07:57. > :08:02.talking about the choreographing, how it happens and whether the Prime
:08:03. > :08:07.Minister himself withdraws it. Or somebody else might put something
:08:08. > :08:10.else on the table, doing the PM a favour, to bail him out and say if
:08:11. > :08:16.you don't want this how about that. Peter Lilley And, when I said can
:08:17. > :08:21.you sell this to your backbenchers comic said it is a problem for the
:08:22. > :08:24.other parties too but it is overwhelmingly a problem for the
:08:25. > :08:28.Conservatives and if he cannot achieve what is being asked for, I
:08:29. > :08:34.would suggest half the Parliamentary party in my not go with him on this.
:08:35. > :08:44.It is not the climb-down I would query, but the "big". He needed one
:08:45. > :08:47.totemic issue that looked like he was doing something about
:08:48. > :08:56.immigration. He couldn't look at the free movement of people or any kind
:08:57. > :09:01.of free movement cap. He couldn't tell nostrils any major power he is
:09:02. > :09:07.asking to be repatriated. It will be hard to make it look like he has
:09:08. > :09:14.come back with something so that people can say OK, that has changed
:09:15. > :09:18.my mind. If he gets one in February, can he have the referendum in June?
:09:19. > :09:23.I understand the Electoral Commission doesn't like the idea of
:09:24. > :09:27.a referendum that would overlap with the elections in May, and the risk
:09:28. > :09:30.in September is that we will have another summer migrant crisis and
:09:31. > :09:36.that would be a terrible atmosphere for those who want to stay in the
:09:37. > :09:41.European Union. There are a lot of hurdles, first you have got to get a
:09:42. > :09:43.deal in February that looks like a success. The reason they have done
:09:44. > :09:48.what they've done overnight is because it has been dragged down
:09:49. > :09:52.into a legal quagmire and David Cameron has got to have a
:09:53. > :09:56.conversation with his counterparts to set that entire renegotiation
:09:57. > :10:00.back on the right track. I know that some people in Brussels as saying he
:10:01. > :10:03.cannot get a deal by February, we will never get a deal, and if it
:10:04. > :10:18.slips into 2017 you won't get a deal then either. In June
:10:19. > :10:21.there is this tiny window because -- where you could practically hold a
:10:22. > :10:26.vote. But then as you say you've got the migrant crisis, which pops up
:10:27. > :10:30.over the summer. I'm told that dealing with the flow of migration
:10:31. > :10:34.from Turkey will make an enormous difference to the optics of how
:10:35. > :10:37.Europe is seen to be able to deal with the migration crisis. Even
:10:38. > :10:42.though that doesn't have a huge impact on UK migration from the rest
:10:43. > :10:47.of Europe, David Cameron's renegotiation depends on something
:10:48. > :10:48.truly out of his control. So you're telling me it depends on the Turks
:10:49. > :10:51.now. On Friday night Jeremy Corbyn met up
:10:52. > :10:53.with some old friends Nothing unusual in that,
:10:54. > :10:57.you might think, but this was a fundraising do
:10:58. > :10:59.for Stop The War Coalition, the anti-war protest group that
:11:00. > :11:01.Mr Corbyn chaired until his election And, in case you hadn't noticed,
:11:02. > :11:05.it caused a bit of a stir. It was the biggest mass
:11:06. > :11:13.demonstration in British history. The group that organised it,
:11:14. > :11:15.the Stop The War Coalition, had been founded a year or so before
:11:16. > :11:20.following the 9/11 attacks and George Bush's declaration
:11:21. > :11:25.of war on terror. Around a million people marched
:11:26. > :11:27.as Tony Blair prepared to send Among the speakers,
:11:28. > :11:32.a backbench Labour MP. Thousands more deaths in Iraq
:11:33. > :11:37.will not make things right, it will set off a spiral
:11:38. > :11:42.of conflict, of hate, One of the reasons for its success,
:11:43. > :11:49.I've always thought, is that everyone was united
:11:50. > :11:54.around one single issue. We never got bogged down
:11:55. > :11:57.in our political analyses of what we thought about
:11:58. > :12:00.Saddam Hussein or what we thought about this dictator or that,
:12:01. > :12:03.or how we thought the political We weren't there to offer solutions
:12:04. > :12:10.to other people's problems and tell them how we thought it should be,
:12:11. > :12:14.we were there to stop our government taking what we considered to be
:12:15. > :12:21.a very bad and negative step. But despite the broad support,
:12:22. > :12:32.the inner leadership has largely Stop The War's founding member
:12:33. > :12:36.and convener Lindsey German was a member of the Socialist
:12:37. > :12:38.Workers Party for over 30 years, Her partner, John Rees,
:12:39. > :12:42.who's also co-founder of Stop The War and was a leading
:12:43. > :12:46.figure in the SWP, he also He sits on the editorial board
:12:47. > :12:49.of Counterfire, a political organisation created
:12:50. > :12:51.after that SWP split. He also helped start up The People's
:12:52. > :12:53.Assembly Against Austerity, Which has been organising
:12:54. > :12:57.protests since 2013. He's often sparked controversy,
:12:58. > :12:59.reportedly writing in 2006, for example, that socialists should
:13:00. > :13:03.unconditionally stand with the oppressed
:13:04. > :13:06.against the oppressor, even if the people who run
:13:07. > :13:08.the oppressed country are undemocratic and persecute
:13:09. > :13:13.minorities, like Saddam Hussein. Andrew Murray was the Stop The War
:13:14. > :13:15.coalition chairman from He's a member of the Communist Party
:13:16. > :13:20.and chief of staff of In 2014 he spoke at the launch event
:13:21. > :13:26.of a campaign called Solidarity With The Antifascist
:13:27. > :13:29.Resistance In Ukraine, which supports anti-government
:13:30. > :13:32.rebels there. He took back the chairmanship again
:13:33. > :13:34.in September this year, taking over from Jeremy Corbyn,
:13:35. > :13:37.who'd held the post from 2011 As well as its elected officers,
:13:38. > :13:54.Stop The War has patrons including Labour MP Diane Abbott,
:13:55. > :13:56.George Galloway, the writer Tariq Ali, and Kamal Majid,
:13:57. > :13:58.a founding member of the Stalin Society, formed in 1991
:13:59. > :14:01.to defend Stalin and his work. The 2003 protest against the Iraq
:14:02. > :14:04.war, which took place here in Hyde Park, was the high point
:14:05. > :14:07.of Stop The War. The human rights activist
:14:08. > :14:11.Peter Tatchell never played an official role at Stop The War,
:14:12. > :14:14.though he has participated But this week he took a very public
:14:15. > :14:18.step back and claimed the organisation has
:14:19. > :14:24.lost its moral compass. The shortcomings in Stop The War
:14:25. > :14:27.are driven by basically about half a dozen people at the top,
:14:28. > :14:30.and those views increasingly are not shared by many of their long-time
:14:31. > :14:32.grass-roots supporters like me People are turned off
:14:33. > :14:39.by the sectarianism, by the selective opposition to war,
:14:40. > :14:42.and by the failure to speak out against human rights abuses
:14:43. > :14:47.by regimes that happen to be on the receiving end of US
:14:48. > :14:52.and British military intervention. Critics like Tatchell have accused
:14:53. > :14:55.Stop The War of trying to silence those whose views don't
:14:56. > :14:59.fit their own. Nothing will be achieved by trying
:15:00. > :15:03.to shout down speakers! This video shows a Stop The War
:15:04. > :15:06.official clashing with a protester during a rally about western
:15:07. > :15:08.policy in Iran in 2012, This meeting last month caused
:15:09. > :15:23.controversy when Syrians in the audience said
:15:24. > :15:27.they weren't allowed to speak. There is one reason there is no
:15:28. > :15:30.Syrian from this room on the platform and that's
:15:31. > :15:33.because they support intervention, and the meeting is
:15:34. > :15:34.against intervention. APPLAUSE What's really disturbing
:15:35. > :15:38.is the way in which Diane Abbott closed down the meeting rather
:15:39. > :15:40.than allow Syrian Democratic left wing and civil society
:15:41. > :15:46.activists to speak. It's given the impression
:15:47. > :15:49.that she shares the questionable politics of Stop The War
:15:50. > :15:56.on the issue of Syria. But Stop The War insists a Syrian
:15:57. > :16:00.contributor did ask a question from the floor of that meeting
:16:01. > :16:02.and have rubbished the suggestion they support those who Western
:16:03. > :16:05.governments oppose. Obviously, you will have seen
:16:06. > :16:10.in recent days Stop The War explaining that they were opposed
:16:11. > :16:14.to Russian intervention in Syria as well as British intervention,
:16:15. > :16:18.so they are evenhanded. The reason I think people may think
:16:19. > :16:22.that is because we are a campaign based in Britain and our campaigning
:16:23. > :16:26.is obviously overwhelmingly orientated towards changing our own
:16:27. > :16:30.Government's policy. Welcome to Islington
:16:31. > :16:33.in north London. In there is Jeremy Corbyn's
:16:34. > :16:35.constituency office. This building is also home
:16:36. > :16:39.to the Stop The War coalition, but it is the figurative proximity
:16:40. > :16:42.rather than the literal one that I spoke to a number of Labour MPs
:16:43. > :16:46.who voted against air One told me that he wasn't so much
:16:47. > :16:53.worried about Stop The War and the influence it may have
:16:54. > :16:55.on Jeremy Corbyn and policy, but more that Jeremy Corbyn
:16:56. > :16:58.simply shares their views. There's dissent at
:16:59. > :17:02.the grass roots too. Last week 500 party members,
:17:03. > :17:04.including councillors, wrote to Mr Corbyn urging him
:17:05. > :17:07.to take a step back. Stop The War is not
:17:08. > :17:10.a Labour Party organisation. There are many people in it who have
:17:11. > :17:17.opposed the Labour Party and probably continue
:17:18. > :17:19.to oppose the Labour Party. I don't believe they hold
:17:20. > :17:22.to the values of solidarity, We also spoke to a number of Labour
:17:23. > :17:28.MPs who were relaxed about Jeremy Corbyn's connection
:17:29. > :17:30.to Stop The War, an organisation he's never made any
:17:31. > :17:34.secret of supporting. On Friday he went to the Christmas
:17:35. > :17:38.do, and said slurs by critics against Stop The War were an attempt
:17:39. > :17:40.to close down democratic He knows some of those critics
:17:41. > :17:47.include his own MPs. We're joined now from Leeds
:17:48. > :17:59.by the Labour MP, Richard Burgon. Morning, Andrew. The Communist Party
:18:00. > :18:04.of Britain, which has prominent members in stop the war, says
:18:05. > :18:09.attacks on stop the war are, quote, a systemic and vicious propaganda oi
:18:10. > :18:11.offensive designed to obscure British imperialism's agenda in
:18:12. > :18:16.conducting the bombing campaign in Syria. Do you agree with that? Well,
:18:17. > :18:19.first of all I think I'm in a good position to answer some of these
:18:20. > :18:25.questions, pause I've only ever been a member of the Labour Party. I
:18:26. > :18:30.joined when I was 15. What I really want to focus on is not the members
:18:31. > :18:34.of small political parties who may be involved in Stop The War
:18:35. > :18:39.Coalition, but the tens of thousands, in fact they've got an
:18:40. > :18:43.e-mail list of 150,000 people, many of whom are not in any political
:18:44. > :18:47.party, many of whom are in the Labour Party. The chairman who has
:18:48. > :18:50.taken over from Mr Corbyn is a member of the Communist Party of
:18:51. > :18:54.Britain, so what's the answer to my question? I think the attacks on
:18:55. > :19:02.stop the war are proxy attacks on Jeremy Corbyn. We haven't had that
:19:03. > :19:09.previously. When Charles Kennedy was speaking against the Iraq war, which
:19:10. > :19:13.2 million people attended, Charles Kennedy wasn't attacked for that,
:19:14. > :19:19.and rightly so. But he wasn't a member of Stop The War Coalition. He
:19:20. > :19:23.spoke on the stop the war platform. But he wasn't a member? I'm not a
:19:24. > :19:30.member, there's a really important point here, it is right that people
:19:31. > :19:33.in democratic society express their views to MPs, march against things
:19:34. > :19:37.they think are incorrect. I do think the line and the leadership of the
:19:38. > :19:41.Stop The War Coalition hasn't changed in the 14 years since it was
:19:42. > :19:44.founded. What has changed is that Jeremy Corbyn has become leader of
:19:45. > :19:48.the Labour Party, so people in the media and elsewhere who wish to
:19:49. > :19:53.attack Jeremy Corbyn are using stop the war to do so. Of course it is
:19:54. > :20:01.not just the media, is it? It is not even the media. Labour MPses,
:20:02. > :20:08.Tristram Hunt, Stella Creasy, many more, they've attacked Stop the War
:20:09. > :20:13.Coalition and Jeremy Corbyn's support for it. I think the majority
:20:14. > :20:17.of Labour members agreed with Jeremy Corbyn on his analysis on whether or
:20:18. > :20:21.not we should agree to David Cameron's proposal to bomb Syria.
:20:22. > :20:24.But what do you say to their criticism of Mr Corbyn's continued
:20:25. > :20:29.association with Stop the War Coalition? I think they are
:20:30. > :20:33.mistaken. I think that stop the war, we've got to look at how stop the
:20:34. > :20:39.war has involved people from right across the political spectrum. When
:20:40. > :20:43.I was on that historical march in 2003, there wasn't just the Lib Dem
:20:44. > :20:47.leader speaking but other people I spoke to, Conservative voters, so it
:20:48. > :20:52.is not just 57 varieties of Trotskyite groups that are involved.
:20:53. > :20:57.If it were the case it were merelily people on the ultraleft you wouldn't
:20:58. > :21:02.have 150,000 people involved or on the e-mail list. Who is not either a
:21:03. > :21:06.cop thirst, a Trotskyite or a Stalinist? Well, there are plenty of
:21:07. > :21:11.trade unions involved in the lip... Among the leadership, the people who
:21:12. > :21:14.lead this, whose names are associated with it, who doesn't Paul
:21:15. > :21:19.into that small hard left category? Well, it is a coalition, and that's
:21:20. > :21:23.the point of it. So give me another name that doesn't fall into that.
:21:24. > :21:28.Well, I wouldn't even know the full list of people on the board of stop
:21:29. > :21:32.the war, but what I do know is that there are people from trade unions
:21:33. > :21:36.supporting it, trade unions supporting it, probably in terms of
:21:37. > :21:40.the membership of Stop the War Coalition, the biggest composite of
:21:41. > :21:44.that are Labour Party members. But I do think this is a distraction of
:21:45. > :21:50.the democratic issue. We can't say that in this country being a member
:21:51. > :21:52.of a Stop the War Coalition campaign, campaigning against
:21:53. > :21:57.military interventions that were proven to be disastrous in Iraq and
:21:58. > :22:03.Libya is wrong. It is part of an open democratic process. People
:22:04. > :22:07.shouldn't be demonised for being part of it, or Jeremy Corbyn. I'm
:22:08. > :22:11.not doing that, what I'm trying to do is find out what stop the war
:22:12. > :22:15.really stands for and whether it is right to Jeremy Corbyn and other
:22:16. > :22:23.Labour people should be associated with it. They are had an article
:22:24. > :22:28.titled, Sociopaths United. The United States, Britain and their
:22:29. > :22:32.allies are no less sociopathic than the enemies they propose to hunt
:22:33. > :22:36.down. So British security forces are on a par with the beheaders, do you
:22:37. > :22:41.agree with that? I certainly don't agree with that. I think there've
:22:42. > :22:47.been things published on blogs on the stop the war website which are
:22:48. > :22:50.essential wrong, which I wouldn't agree with and the vast majority of
:22:51. > :22:53.people who are members of the Stop the War Coalition wouldn't agree
:22:54. > :22:58.with. I was reading in the paper this morning that the management of
:22:59. > :23:02.the website of the stop the war has changed. If that shows that they are
:23:03. > :23:08.going to be more careful to ensure that the content of the website on
:23:09. > :23:11.every occasion mirrorst or reflects, sorry, the view of the leadership of
:23:12. > :23:21.the Stop the War Coalition, then that's a welcome move. Well, it is
:23:22. > :23:27.certainly, if it is such a splendid organisation, it has to delete lots
:23:28. > :23:37.of articles it has published. It blamed the Paris attacks on French
:23:38. > :23:41.policy, claimed that the threat to the Yazidis was largely mythical, in
:23:42. > :23:46.fact force. And published a poem that quotes a well known anti-Semite
:23:47. > :23:49.and Holocaust denier. All of that it has had to take down. Does that
:23:50. > :23:53.sound like a respectable organisation that the Labour Party
:23:54. > :23:58.should be associated with? Well, the views that you've uncovered aren't
:23:59. > :24:04.views that I or members of the Stop the War Coalition would agree with.
:24:05. > :24:07.But the big picture is this. In a coalition there are always sorts of
:24:08. > :24:10.small numbers of individuals who come out with unacceptable views.
:24:11. > :24:15.But the fact is I'm interested in the democratic point, in the 2
:24:16. > :24:19.million people that marched on 15th February 2003, in the thousands that
:24:20. > :24:23.protested against the intervention in Libya and intense the
:24:24. > :24:27.intervention in Syria. I'm not a pacifist but I think that the truth
:24:28. > :24:31.is that the Stop the War Coalition and the ordinary people from vicars
:24:32. > :24:35.to pensioners who marched against the war in Iraq, who marched against
:24:36. > :24:37.the intervention in Libya and have demonstrated against the
:24:38. > :24:41.intervention in Syria, they've got it right. Many of the people
:24:42. > :24:44.attacking Jeremy Corbyn and many of the people attacking the Stop the
:24:45. > :24:51.War Coalition have got it completely wrong. It is a topsy-turvy world we
:24:52. > :24:53.are in when attending Stop the War Coalition events is controversial.
:24:54. > :24:59.We are still pretending that Tony Blair and others got it right in
:25:00. > :25:05.Iraq. We haven't got much time Mr Burgon. Mr Corbyn stuck to his guns
:25:06. > :25:09.and went to the fundraiser. His spin doctor says the Labour Party is now
:25:10. > :25:16.slowly co hearing round Mr Corbyn's views, across a range of issues. Do
:25:17. > :25:20.you agree with that? I do. As I minced earlier, Jeremy Corbyn didn't
:25:21. > :25:25.instruct or order Labour MPs to vote against David Cameron's plan to bomb
:25:26. > :25:31.Syria. He gave them a free vote, and that that was the right thing to do.
:25:32. > :25:36.By a ratio of 2 to 1 Labour MPs agreed with Jeremy Corbyn's
:25:37. > :25:42.analysis, and by 2 to 1 members of the Shadow Cabinet agreed with Mr
:25:43. > :25:50.Corbyn. But on working tax credits, police cuts, issues such as ech
:25:51. > :25:55.attacking George Osborne's failed cuts and privatisationings the vast,
:25:56. > :26:02.of Labour MPs and members, and a lot of the public agree with him.
:26:03. > :26:06.Richard Burgon thank you for joining us and for persevering with the
:26:07. > :26:12.earpiece. I'm glad you stalk with it. Thank you. Take care. Bye.
:26:13. > :26:14.Yvette Cooper came third in the contest to become
:26:15. > :26:18.Her campaign only really came to life back in early September,
:26:19. > :26:21.when she became the first front rank UK politician to call for Britain
:26:22. > :26:23.to take in 10,000 refugees from the Syrian war.
:26:24. > :26:26.Now, in her new role as Chair of Labour's Refugees Taskforce,
:26:27. > :26:28.she's been on a fact-finding visit to the Jungle refugee
:26:29. > :26:43.6,000 people are currently living in what, in most generous terms,
:26:44. > :26:54.Yvette Cooper, a former Shadow Home Secretary,
:26:55. > :26:57.a Labour leadership contender, argued over the summer Britain
:26:58. > :26:58.should take more Syrian asylum seekers than
:26:59. > :27:05.Now a backbencher, she is returned as a guest of citizens UK not
:27:06. > :27:10.to argue we should fling open the doors but that the jungle
:27:11. > :27:13.was a problem nobody has tried to find a solution to.
:27:14. > :27:17.Why do we not have UNHCR here doing proper assessments of everybody?
:27:18. > :27:25.And therefore actually they need to go back through
:27:26. > :27:32.You've got to have a proper process to assess people's refugee status
:27:33. > :27:40.and at the moment that's not happening.
:27:41. > :27:43.That's the real big tragedy of here, the people have got stuck
:27:44. > :27:45.here in these awful conditions and there's no
:27:46. > :27:48.Some would call it hell, that's a little hyperbolic,
:27:49. > :27:56.It's really purgatory, since there's a real sense nobody
:27:57. > :27:59.is going anywhere, unless to climb on board a lorry and illegally
:28:00. > :28:05.And a camp unsuited to summer is preparing for a winter it's
:28:06. > :28:09.There's an argument which says, if you help refugees,
:28:10. > :28:11.then somehow that will create a crisis.
:28:12. > :28:17.No, the crisis is here and now, the crisis is happening.
:28:18. > :28:20.The question is what we do to stop the crisis getting worse and worse,
:28:21. > :28:26.so you can't have people stuck living among the rubbish
:28:27. > :28:32.and the pools of water and the mud while they're applying for asylum.
:28:33. > :28:40.You've got to have a basic humanitarian aid in place.
:28:41. > :28:42.At the Medecins Sans Frontieres clinic on-site, the issue
:28:43. > :28:48.of the conditions and winter is a problem itself.
:28:49. > :28:52.The problem when we see the camp, it's very cold, the hygiene
:28:53. > :29:02.And what happens, the condition...the simple
:29:03. > :29:10.flu passes sometimes in the bronchal...and that's it.
:29:11. > :29:15.There are many women and children - yes, they are outnumbered -
:29:16. > :29:18.but they're housed in two sections of the camp we're not allowed
:29:19. > :29:20.to film in, though clearly some choose to live in other parts
:29:21. > :29:22.of the camp and walk the roads around.
:29:23. > :29:25.And it's the issue of unaccompanied minors with family already legally
:29:26. > :29:29.in the UK that is worrying some of the volunteers.
:29:30. > :29:32.So, there's a ten-year-old boy separated from his family and just
:29:33. > :29:40.There are eight-year-olds, nine-year-olds, ten-year-olds
:29:41. > :29:43.with family in the UK desperate to look after them,
:29:44. > :29:45.and come here to visit them and bring them things
:29:46. > :29:56.Do you suspect that people back home will see this and their natural
:29:57. > :29:58.humanity will say, "this is awful, that looks really dreadful,
:29:59. > :30:00.we still don't want lots of them to come"?
:30:01. > :30:11.The problem is you look around this and you think,
:30:12. > :30:14.how is this northern Europe, how can this be just a few miles
:30:15. > :30:17.How can this be what is happening in France?
:30:18. > :30:20.Yvette Cooper would be much happier if those minors were taken
:30:21. > :30:23.in with their families, and seems to be singing from a song
:30:24. > :30:26.sheet that says whether we take more refugees, fewer or none,
:30:27. > :30:30.it may well be a pressing question, but that the jungle in Calais
:30:31. > :30:44.Welcome back to the Sunday Politics. Should adults from this can be
:30:45. > :30:48.allowed into Britain? It depends on their circumstances. Most of them
:30:49. > :30:54.should be playing in France for asylum and that I think is what you
:30:55. > :30:59.would expect to happen. Some of them may not be refugees, some of them
:31:00. > :31:05.may have safe homes to go to and should do so. Clearly there's a lot
:31:06. > :31:10.of people there who have fled Syria, Afghanistan, who we know are fleeing
:31:11. > :31:17.conflict and persecution. There's a question about the children. We saw
:31:18. > :31:21.unaccompanied children. There are people traffickers, some cases where
:31:22. > :31:27.aid workers said they had families in Britain we were trying to reach.
:31:28. > :31:32.For example I spoke to a 15-year-old whose brother, his nearest relative
:31:33. > :31:39.is in Britain and he wants to join him. That's why he is in Calais.
:31:40. > :31:44.Should we let them in? We should have a process for him to be able to
:31:45. > :31:51.apply. We should be providing that sanctuary. I understand the children
:31:52. > :31:56.issue but I'm still not quite clear what your attitude is towards the
:31:57. > :32:01.adults there. Although a lot of people in this camp may have started
:32:02. > :32:06.as refugees, they are now in France. They are not in immediate danger of
:32:07. > :32:10.their lives so they now want to come to the UK because they think
:32:11. > :32:16.economic prospects are better here than in France. That makes their
:32:17. > :32:21.role economic migrants now. That's not the reality. They have no safe
:32:22. > :32:26.home at the moment, and I agree they should be playing right now and they
:32:27. > :32:32.should be assessed where they are. The French authorities should be
:32:33. > :32:38.doing a full assessment. So why are they not in there? Good question.
:32:39. > :32:43.Why are we leaving people in such awful conditions? If the French
:32:44. > :32:49.authorities cannot, we should get the UNHCR to come in and do a full
:32:50. > :32:53.assessment. There will also be people, I spoke for example to a
:32:54. > :32:59.single mother with two small children who had left Syria when her
:33:00. > :33:06.husband was killed in an Assad jail. She was trying to reach her father
:33:07. > :33:11.and brother, also in Britain. There should be a process for her to apply
:33:12. > :33:16.for sanctuary in Britain. If you had a fair system to apply, you might
:33:17. > :33:22.prevent people coming to Calais in the first place. Should we set up an
:33:23. > :33:27.asylum seeking vetting operation in Calais ourselves? We have a system
:33:28. > :33:34.the Government set up under pressure to take refugees from the camps in
:33:35. > :33:38.Syria. I'm talking about the camps in Calais. I agree but I'm saying we
:33:39. > :33:45.should prevent people coming to Calais in the first place. Once
:33:46. > :33:52.people have got to Calais, I think there is a case particularly for
:33:53. > :33:56.those children... We understand the children but I'm asking about adults
:33:57. > :34:01.because it is hard to know what your policy is on this. Should we start
:34:02. > :34:04.to say some of them are asylum seekers, the French are not doing
:34:05. > :34:13.their jobs properly, we will take them in once they go through the
:34:14. > :34:16.proper procedures - yes or no? Those who have formally in Britain should
:34:17. > :34:22.be able to apply for sanctuary in Britain but you need a system. You
:34:23. > :34:29.need to be able to do security checks and refugee checks. At the
:34:30. > :34:33.moment Britain is only taking 4000 refugees per year. I think we could
:34:34. > :34:38.do more of that, and if we did that and worked with other countries we
:34:39. > :34:41.should be clearing the problems at Calais and preventing people coming
:34:42. > :34:47.to Europe on most dangerous boats in the first place. I know that people
:34:48. > :34:51.think we cannot solve this, it is too hard, but if we don't it will
:34:52. > :34:59.get worse. Some people may argue that the more you take in and give
:35:00. > :35:06.proper status to, you will encourage all the more to come into Europe.
:35:07. > :35:11.People are coming whatever happens. We are told there is another 5
:35:12. > :35:15.million waiting to come. At one point the Government was arguing we
:35:16. > :35:19.shouldn't have search and rescue in the Mediterranean because that would
:35:20. > :35:23.encourage more people to come, I think that is immoral. People have
:35:24. > :35:30.come, they are travelling across Europe. Let me try to pin you down
:35:31. > :35:36.on that. It is still not clear what you want to do. Let's take the
:35:37. > :35:40.migrants who have made it into the EU this year. Although the German
:35:41. > :35:46.government took most itself, it tried to spread the burden through
:35:47. > :35:54.quotas of member states. Should we volunteer a quota? Yes, I think we
:35:55. > :36:00.should take 10,000 people. Only ten? The Germans are taking a lot more.
:36:01. > :36:05.The reason I said that figure is because that meant you would be
:36:06. > :36:09.talking about ten families for every city or County across the country
:36:10. > :36:14.and I also think the best way to do with this is to work with faith
:36:15. > :36:20.groups across the country and say how many refugees do you think you
:36:21. > :36:24.could support in each area. Germany's Labour market is in a
:36:25. > :36:30.different situation and they have a different demographic. So 10,000 out
:36:31. > :36:35.of Vermilion, that would be British response? That would be a good thing
:36:36. > :36:39.to do, but the truth is all countries will have to work together
:36:40. > :36:44.on this and there isn't a simple answer. It's not just about what you
:36:45. > :36:48.do in terms of the number of refugees you give sanctuary to, it's
:36:49. > :36:52.also how you prevent people travelling. We should reunite
:36:53. > :36:58.families and we have got to do something about humanitarian relief.
:36:59. > :37:02.There are people living in terrible conditions, with France and Britain
:37:03. > :37:05.being two of the most powerful countries in the world you would
:37:06. > :37:11.have thought it is not beyond the wit of these countries to make sure
:37:12. > :37:15.there is proper humanitarian relief, sanitation, and heating for people
:37:16. > :37:20.who will suffer not just from scabies but terrible conditions in
:37:21. > :37:24.those camps as the winter draws in. Indeed we shall see what horrors the
:37:25. > :37:28.winter brings because we have not gone through that yet in this
:37:29. > :37:37.migrant crisis. You heard a colleague of yours saying he thought
:37:38. > :37:39.the Labour Party was now moving strongly in Mr Corbyn's direction in
:37:40. > :37:43.policy matters, do you agree? There's been a lot of policies I
:37:44. > :37:48.disagree with, we have that debate over the summer. The challenge at
:37:49. > :37:52.the moment is that the Labour Party has an internal focus, looking
:37:53. > :37:58.inwards at ourselves. We have got to look outwards. You are not answering
:37:59. > :38:08.my question. Let me try one more time. Is your party moving broadly
:38:09. > :38:12.in Mr Corbyn's direction? I'm not sure quite what that means because
:38:13. > :38:15.we are having a debate in the party at the moment about what the
:38:16. > :38:19.policies should be in the future. The trouble is we cannot just make
:38:20. > :38:25.that debate look inwards when the Tories are being let off the hook on
:38:26. > :38:30.tax credits, Europe and a series of things. I will try to make the
:38:31. > :38:31.question more clear next time. Thank you.
:38:32. > :38:33.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:34. > :38:43.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:38:44. > :38:46.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.
:38:47. > :38:48.Dealing with the past remains the issue that the parties can't
:38:49. > :38:53.Do we need another deadline to push the process forward?
:38:54. > :38:55.We'll hear the thoughts of the the Victims' Commissioner,
:38:56. > :39:00.And David Cameron said no to a sugar tax -
:39:01. > :39:03.but could the Assembly be the first devolved institution to go it alone
:39:04. > :39:07.And with their thoughts on all of that and more -
:39:08. > :39:17.my guests of the day are Paul McFadden and Dawn Purvis...
:39:18. > :39:21.It was left out of the Fresh Start deal - and now the Secretary
:39:22. > :39:24.of State says she shares the frustration of some victims'
:39:25. > :39:26.groups, angry at the lack of progress on legacy issues.
:39:27. > :39:29.Theresa Villiers is to meet victims this week amid an ongoing row over
:39:30. > :39:32.the government's position on dealing with the past.
:39:33. > :39:35.She's been accused of failing to deliver on a commitment made
:39:36. > :39:38.in the Stormont House Agreement, by insisting upon a veto on material
:39:39. > :39:42.We'll hear from the Victims' Commissioner' Judith Thompson'
:39:43. > :39:45.in just a moment - but first, here's what the Secretary of State
:39:46. > :39:52.told me on The View on Thursday night...
:39:53. > :40:00.Gay and I Cheryl Cole of getting these new body set up and frankly
:40:01. > :40:05.that requires compromise all round. We have put on the table and appeal
:40:06. > :40:10.mechanism, we stretched ourselves, because who want to do everything we
:40:11. > :40:15.can to get these bodies set up. We want this process of determining
:40:16. > :40:18.what material can be redacted on the grounds of national security, we
:40:19. > :40:22.wanted to be transparent and the way we propose to do that is by having a
:40:23. > :40:29.direct appeal to the High Court so that families can be confident that
:40:30. > :40:33.the deed power never be misused and it is absolutely still clear that
:40:34. > :40:36.the High Court is entirely independent of government and of any
:40:37. > :40:39.Secretary of State were seeking as you have alleged to try and cover up
:40:40. > :40:45.the truth then that would be overturned by the High Court. I am
:40:46. > :40:48.surprised really that you maintain the line you are optimistic, you
:40:49. > :40:53.said at the start that you optimistic this can be dealt with
:40:54. > :40:57.but you say you expect to get a tough time meeting victims group and
:40:58. > :41:02.you know that Sinn Fein is unhappy so where is the optimism. I think
:41:03. > :41:06.generally during the talks are a lot of issues were resolved, yes we did
:41:07. > :41:13.not resolve the question around national security. That is the big
:41:14. > :41:16.issue. We discussed constructive proposals, Sinn Fein put proposals
:41:17. > :41:20.on the table, we did not think we could make them work and we put our
:41:21. > :41:21.own proposals on the table, but we are not 1 million miles away from
:41:22. > :41:28.one another. Theresa Villiers speaking
:41:29. > :41:29.on Thursday night. The Secretary of State says she's
:41:30. > :41:33.optimistic outstanding issues Do you share her optimism?
:41:34. > :41:42.She says the right to veto The reason why I believe that is
:41:43. > :41:47.that I have spoken since those talks finished to the first and Deputy
:41:48. > :41:51.First Minister, to the Irish Foreign Affairs Minister and the Secretary
:41:52. > :41:55.of State and all of them independently are giving details on
:41:56. > :41:57.specific progress that have not for being made in relation to the
:41:58. > :42:01.different elements of the agreement and I think this is important, I
:42:02. > :42:05.have met with a number of victims groups who would have had quite
:42:06. > :42:10.disparate concerns going into the but the reality of achieving nothing
:42:11. > :42:14.on the table has been a real shock to everyone and there is a level of
:42:15. > :42:19.energy and common purpose there which I think was not there before.
:42:20. > :42:23.The Secretary of State was clear that in her view, the right to veto
:42:24. > :42:28.will never be misused by the British Government and she was keen to make
:42:29. > :42:32.that point, but some of her critics, some of them representing victims
:42:33. > :42:37.groups do not accept that, are you persuaded by what the Secretary of
:42:38. > :42:42.State had to say? The key issue is that there are real concerns about
:42:43. > :42:45.national security. On the one hand there are people who understandably
:42:46. > :42:48.are concerned that the information that they need will be redacted from
:42:49. > :42:53.reports and key issues swept under the carpet and that is not a useful
:42:54. > :42:58.process. I think that is a genuine concern but on the other hand you
:42:59. > :43:02.have others who whilst they understand the need for national
:43:03. > :43:05.security are equally saying this needs to be proportionate and
:43:06. > :43:11.realistic. I believe that at the end of the day what was being developed
:43:12. > :43:17.at the very close of those talks was a move towards some sort of judicial
:43:18. > :43:21.model where the director of that new HIU if they felt that national
:43:22. > :43:25.security was being used as the measure to cover up things that were
:43:26. > :43:30.uncomfortable, rather than security sensitive than they could go to a
:43:31. > :43:34.judicial process. That process, the nature of that was not fully agreed
:43:35. > :43:37.but there are ways of doing creative thinking around that. Are you saying
:43:38. > :43:42.that you believe common ground could be found to allow the British
:43:43. > :43:47.Government, the Secretary of State to sign up to a judicial process for
:43:48. > :43:51.disclosure that would also meet the demands of victims groups? Sinn Fein
:43:52. > :43:56.have been very vocal on this issue. I do believe that this possible.
:43:57. > :43:59.Because it is hard to see how it is possible, it looks like such an
:44:00. > :44:03.enormous sticking points. It was an enormous sticking point going into
:44:04. > :44:07.the talks when we had draft legislation with two levels of
:44:08. > :44:11.security information going into that process marked not to be disclose
:44:12. > :44:17.further and then there was a further potential block during the end of
:44:18. > :44:20.the investigation. That was where the stock started and that was in
:44:21. > :44:24.the draft legislation. Where it got too at the end was a different place
:44:25. > :44:30.and had there been longer to look at ways around that process should look
:44:31. > :44:34.like, I believe there might have been more confidence. So you are
:44:35. > :44:37.assuring our viewers that this is more than simple wishful thinking on
:44:38. > :44:43.the parts of the Victims' Commissioner? You would want that to
:44:44. > :44:46.be the case, are you saying that you have good reason to believe that can
:44:47. > :44:51.be the case? Yes, I look at where we are now, what is not acceptable is
:44:52. > :44:55.where we are now. We have 500,000 people affected by the Troubles
:44:56. > :44:58.living in Northern Ireland and outside. We have 40,000 people
:44:59. > :45:05.injured and the pension for the seriously injured is on hold. We
:45:06. > :45:10.have 200,000 people with mental health problems. Funding for a
:45:11. > :45:14.trauma service is on hold. We have ?60 million a year being spent on
:45:15. > :45:18.our justice system in pursuit of processes that everyone agrees are
:45:19. > :45:23.not working. Were we are now, this is not going to go away, it has to
:45:24. > :45:30.be dealt with. We are approaching a New Year and there are Assembly
:45:31. > :45:32.elections next year, you know that positions on the political front
:45:33. > :45:36.tend to harden in the run-up to an election, who is going to take the
:45:37. > :45:41.lead as far as this process of compromise and finding common ground
:45:42. > :45:44.is concerned, will that be you? As commissioner, I am in the privileged
:45:45. > :45:48.position of talking to everyone and there are many people who have been
:45:49. > :45:50.working at this for a long time and have great knowledge and
:45:51. > :45:56.understanding, so what I think has to happen is I am meeting with the
:45:57. > :46:06.victims Forum and the Secretary of State tomorrow and we have further
:46:07. > :46:08.meetings scheduled with parties this week. I think there needs to be
:46:09. > :46:10.better information out there, of where these talks got to and what
:46:11. > :46:13.the options are being considered, there has to be a structured
:46:14. > :46:17.dialogue that victims can lead and as a commissioner I will help that.
:46:18. > :46:22.I believe that there needs to be a timetable, further political talks
:46:23. > :46:25.and for legislation to implement things. The problem and I do not
:46:26. > :46:31.need to tell you this because you know this there is no one victim 's
:46:32. > :46:35.voice in all of this. What is really interesting here is that in the
:46:36. > :46:39.run-up to the talks were we had something on the table, yes those
:46:40. > :46:42.anxieties and diverse views were there, but when you actually get to
:46:43. > :46:47.a level of should there be some level of truth and acknowledgement
:46:48. > :46:51.and justice and should there be services and help for people who
:46:52. > :46:55.have suffered, nobody disagrees. When you say what about a victim
:46:56. > :46:58.centred approach, should victims be considered and how we deal with
:46:59. > :47:10.these matters, should they be consulted, should we have processes
:47:11. > :47:12.to deal with the issues, victims groups agree, so there is an energy
:47:13. > :47:14.and a common purpose there, even though obviously these people
:47:15. > :47:18.represent a society which is still quite divided. At a higher level,
:47:19. > :47:22.there is a journeyman will to get something done. Do you believe that
:47:23. > :47:27.the Secretary of State is potentially coming under pressure
:47:28. > :47:30.from her own backbenchers, from veterans organisations, not to
:47:31. > :47:33.disclose information that could be embarrassing for people involved in
:47:34. > :47:37.the conflict from a government point of view in the past? She was pretty
:47:38. > :47:40.clear that that was not the case, she said she had not come under
:47:41. > :47:44.pressure but there are people who think she must be under huge
:47:45. > :47:50.pressure not to disclose embarrassing information. We all saw
:47:51. > :47:53.the Spotlight programme and interviews with veterans, obviously,
:47:54. > :47:58.the Secretary of State operates in an arena where these are real
:47:59. > :48:02.issues. In Northern Ireland, are parties and people understand these
:48:03. > :48:05.issues differently and there are people who are ex-members of the
:48:06. > :48:09.security forces themselves saying to me, look there is a truth here that
:48:10. > :48:13.we need to have acknowledgement. There are quite a few commentators,
:48:14. > :48:20.we had three of them on Thursday night who were of the view that
:48:21. > :48:22.victims are expectations and hopes have been unrealistically raised and
:48:23. > :48:27.they will never get the satisfaction that they are ultimately looking
:48:28. > :48:31.for, do you share that glass half empty view or do you think that
:48:32. > :48:35.victims from what ever background and however they find themselves to
:48:36. > :48:39.be victims can be satisfied at the end of this process? Firstly I do
:48:40. > :48:43.agree that people's hopes were raised and then disappointed and
:48:44. > :48:48.that was incredibly difficult for victims and survivors, secondly, yes
:48:49. > :49:02.I do think that something which will satisfy the majority of
:49:03. > :49:06.people is be achieved, do I think everyone will be pleased with any
:49:07. > :49:08.option? It is not going to be possible to satisfy everyone's wants
:49:09. > :49:11.and needs all of the time. You have to respect and listen and go for the
:49:12. > :49:13.best you can achieve. Can you achieve that before the next
:49:14. > :49:15.Assembly election do you believe? I believe that we need to have
:49:16. > :49:19.alternative talks before the election and I believe that
:49:20. > :49:23.legislation would not be possible until then. The outstanding issues
:49:24. > :49:26.theoretically could be resolved before the election? I think this
:49:27. > :49:30.dialogue needs to start now while it is fresh and what has been achieved
:49:31. > :49:32.is still in front of us, I do not think this is something that can be
:49:33. > :49:36.parked until the next election. Let's bring in my guests -
:49:37. > :49:49.Dawn Purvis and Paul McFadden... Does that state of the nation view
:49:50. > :49:56.from the commission gave you cause for optimism that these seemingly
:49:57. > :50:00.intractable issues can be resolved? As chair of an organisation that has
:50:01. > :50:04.been looking at legacy issues and how we deal with the past in
:50:05. > :50:07.Northern Ireland for the last 13 years, we know that this is possible
:50:08. > :50:13.when you bring people together from very diverse backgrounds, from those
:50:14. > :50:17.who have been most affected and those involved in the conflict. We
:50:18. > :50:21.know it is possible, and the difficulties that we face are that
:50:22. > :50:26.political parties are starting from the position that they do not want
:50:27. > :50:29.to deal with this. So, if you look at whether political parties have
:50:30. > :50:34.come from, from not wanting to deal with this to find a way of dealing
:50:35. > :50:39.with this, they have come a hell of a long way. Once you get and I agree
:50:40. > :50:42.with Judith, there is a high level of agreement and amongst the
:50:43. > :50:45.principles that set out dealing with the past, it is when we start to
:50:46. > :50:49.drill down to the details of those mechanisms that the party 's retreat
:50:50. > :50:54.to their own constituencies and that is the difficulty. Ayew any more
:50:55. > :50:57.optimistic having heard the commissioner 's thoughts on how
:50:58. > :51:03.things might unfold in the months ahead and perhaps you were before
:51:04. > :51:06.today? Know I am not and with respect to Judith, and Judith will
:51:07. > :51:13.be privy to discussions that I am not aware of, but for me, the fresh
:51:14. > :51:20.start document was a false start so far as victims are concerned. The
:51:21. > :51:24.fact that nothing was achieved in terms of addressing the whole
:51:25. > :51:26.legacy, it has concentrated minds and it is dreadfully embarrassing
:51:27. > :51:34.that there was an agreement on so many other issues with nothing done
:51:35. > :51:37.to address the concerns of victims. That was quite dispiriting. I hope
:51:38. > :51:43.that Judith is right and that the parties are closer together than the
:51:44. > :51:48.way they seem at the minute, but to me the past is a rock that so many
:51:49. > :51:52.people do not want to look under, the British Government doesn't, the
:51:53. > :51:56.paramilitary organisations either. We will watch this situation unfolds
:51:57. > :51:59.after Christmas and perhaps in the run-up to the election.
:52:00. > :52:03.The Health Minister beat the chair of the Health Committee to it this
:52:04. > :52:06.week when he announced he's proposing legislation to ban smoking
:52:07. > :52:10.Maeve McLauglin, who had also planned to propose the move,
:52:11. > :52:12.welcomed the development, but not to be out-done
:52:13. > :52:15.announced her plans to get the Assembly to back a sugar
:52:16. > :52:19.And Maeve McLaughlin joins me now from our Foyle studio...
:52:20. > :52:23.Is this a bit of policy ping pong between yourself and the Minister -
:52:24. > :52:33.he serves up the smoking ban and you return with the sugar tax?
:52:34. > :52:40.No, both amendments were tabled at the same time and I think what it is
:52:41. > :52:46.is a response to an increasing robust evidence -based that the
:52:47. > :52:51.level of sugar consumption in society is directly correlated with
:52:52. > :52:56.health problems. We see that when we look at areas such as the increase
:52:57. > :53:01.in diabetes, obesity and indeed cardiovascular disease, not to
:53:02. > :53:05.mention dental decay particularly amongst our children and young
:53:06. > :53:09.people. There is increasingly a body of evidence that relates the level
:53:10. > :53:14.of sugar that we take through sugary drinks and our health problems. It
:53:15. > :53:18.isn't that simple, Downing Street decided against it, it is a complex
:53:19. > :53:21.issue, not just about the consumption of sugar, it is about
:53:22. > :53:25.the lack of exercise. Yes indeed and I think we will all be naive to
:53:26. > :53:30.suggest that this is a panacea for all our health problems, it is not
:53:31. > :53:33.but in my view I think it is a progressive initiative that should
:53:34. > :53:38.at least be explored. I think it is important to say that a number of
:53:39. > :53:44.countries have taken the initiative, like the Welsh Assembly which backed
:53:45. > :53:47.proposals to explore the sugar levy, what I am calling for it is an
:53:48. > :53:51.exploration, a fool public consultation, because it would be
:53:52. > :53:58.wrong in my view to ignore at the 24% of our children and young people
:53:59. > :54:02.who are be said for the 33% to -- diabetes increase, it would be
:54:03. > :54:06.foolish of us to not respond to that accordingly. Yes it is complex, yes
:54:07. > :54:11.it is not an initiative that will solve all of our problems on their
:54:12. > :54:15.own, but it is certainly one that we would be foolhardy to ignore. It
:54:16. > :54:20.might prove electoral lorry very unpopular. I do not think there will
:54:21. > :54:23.be consensus on this and that is what we are calling for, we are
:54:24. > :54:28.calling within this legislation for the Health Minister and the
:54:29. > :54:32.Department to conduct a full public consultation and that needs to
:54:33. > :54:39.include the full economic assessment impact in relation to the limitation
:54:40. > :54:42.of this proposed levy. As I said, we have increased public health issues,
:54:43. > :54:47.huge gap in terms of our health inequalities between those who have
:54:48. > :54:52.and have not, so we need to explore radical solutions and it has been
:54:53. > :54:56.backed up with scientific evidence elsewhere, particularly in Public
:54:57. > :55:00.Health England which has looked at the evidence and says it works.
:55:01. > :55:04.Simon Hamilton did not seem terribly enamoured with the idea when he
:55:05. > :55:09.responded to the suggestion, he did say he will consider it but we
:55:10. > :55:12.should not rush to pass something as significant as this without a proper
:55:13. > :55:17.debate. I suppose that is what you are saying, but he did not seem to
:55:18. > :55:21.be banging the drum for it as the outcome you're looking for. What I
:55:22. > :55:24.am calling for is the public consultation, I am calling for him
:55:25. > :55:28.to commit within one year of this legislation coming into place that
:55:29. > :55:33.he will conduct that consultation and let us explore the options and
:55:34. > :55:36.look at the evidence, look at the health inequalities, the
:55:37. > :55:39.relationship between sugar consumption and diabetes and let us
:55:40. > :55:46.look at what the economic impact of that would be. Can I ask you about
:55:47. > :55:51.another issue, Simon Hamilton's statement on gay men donating blood,
:55:52. > :55:56.do you welcome the change in approach to his two immediate
:55:57. > :56:02.predecessors? Clearly this is a significant shift from the DUP, both
:56:03. > :56:07.of the former health ministers, of which society in my view, very
:56:08. > :56:12.clearly took the position backed up by a court, that their view and
:56:13. > :56:17.position in terms of the ban on gay men donating blood was a rational
:56:18. > :56:20.and was laced with prejudice. If this is a significant shift from the
:56:21. > :56:24.current Health Minister then it is of course to be welcomed to stop I
:56:25. > :56:30.will call on him now to join with the rest of society and remove the
:56:31. > :56:35.ban. It is not appropriate that his party's own personal prejudice if
:56:36. > :56:36.you like have impacted in relation to policy issues on this issue.
:56:37. > :56:40.Thank you. Maeve McLaughlin in our
:56:41. > :56:42.Foyle studio, thank you. Let's see what Dawn
:56:43. > :56:53.and Paul make of that... Just a quick word on that issue, do
:56:54. > :56:56.you welcome mat? I do. I feel in a position, I have never been in a
:56:57. > :57:01.situation where I have needed blood but I have been in the situation
:57:02. > :57:06.worse someone very close to me was gravely ill and did need it and I
:57:07. > :57:09.can tell you at that point in time, the problems of the blood did not
:57:10. > :57:14.matter, it was the fact that they got the blood. It is interesting in
:57:15. > :57:19.terms of the wider DUP politics. The DUP seem to be moving towards the
:57:20. > :57:23.centre ground and I think there are interesting things happening in
:57:24. > :57:27.Unionist politics at the moment and I see it as block belonging in
:57:28. > :57:31.there. A quick word on that. Ministers should take professional
:57:32. > :57:37.advice in making these decisions rather than using personal beliefs.
:57:38. > :57:43.As in the abortion guidelines issue, what we have seen is Simon Hamilton
:57:44. > :57:48.move ahead of his Number 8 previous predecessors and I think that is to
:57:49. > :57:53.be welcomed. A quick word on the sugar levy, you persuaded by Maeve
:57:54. > :58:00.MacLachlan? It is a no-brainer. If we introduce a carrier bike tax, why
:58:01. > :58:03.are we not introducing a sugar tax to save our children's dental health
:58:04. > :58:07.and to improve general health in terms of diabetes. Do you agree? She
:58:08. > :58:11.is looking to have the issue explored and it is well worth doing
:58:12. > :58:12.that and having a public consultation and seeing what the
:58:13. > :58:14.evidence suggests. All right - let's just pause,
:58:15. > :58:17.briefly, to take a look back at the week in 60 seconds -
:58:18. > :58:32.with Gareth Gordon... The DUP's would be next leader says
:58:33. > :58:37.no. Arlene is clearly the person who should take the party forward. And
:58:38. > :58:42.Arlene Foster says she can work with Sinn Fein. Well of course I have
:58:43. > :58:48.worked with Martin since I was a minister back in 2007 right up until
:58:49. > :58:51.the present day, we have a working relationship and it will continue.
:58:52. > :58:57.The Health Minister stomps it out. Anyone whose Mark -- who smokes in a
:58:58. > :59:02.confined space like a car with children in the car is an idiot. The
:59:03. > :59:08.Secretary of State says she can deliver of deal for victims. I
:59:09. > :59:10.presided over talks that have delivered two landmark agreements
:59:11. > :59:13.for Northern Ireland. And the chuckle Brothers return or should
:59:14. > :59:28.that be... I will acknowledge... Just time for a final chat
:59:29. > :59:40.with Paul and Dawn... I suppose it is the end of an era
:59:41. > :59:43.with the departure of Peter Robinson and the coronation of Arlene Foster
:59:44. > :59:49.on Thursday. And a dramatic Sammy Wilson getting done in by a dummy
:59:50. > :59:55.run. It has been quite a week in politics. We'll Arlene's Coronation
:59:56. > :59:59.B a short reign given the election coming up? I think she has set
:00:00. > :00:04.herself out to be a bit of a target within the DUP. I wish her well in
:00:05. > :00:07.the post, but I think there are other more Machiavellian forces in
:00:08. > :00:12.the party at work. We regret to ask you both for your political story of
:00:13. > :00:20.the year and Paul, the elevation and rise of Arlene Foster is what you
:00:21. > :00:23.wanted to talk about. To me it is a major development. I think that
:00:24. > :00:27.Peter Robinson is an amazing strategist. I think that elections
:00:28. > :00:31.are won on the middle ground and the DUP are moving on to the middle
:00:32. > :00:36.ground. Listening to Mark Devenport talk to Peter Robinson on Friday
:00:37. > :00:41.night, and Peter Robinson is now portraying the DUP as a party where
:00:42. > :00:47.it ages not an issue, gender is not an issue, the fact that you belong
:00:48. > :00:50.to the UUP is not an issue and it is possibly a party that Catholics
:00:51. > :00:56.could support, I do not think we are at that point, but the DUP is it an
:00:57. > :00:59.interesting place. Mike Nesbitt should be worried. I think more
:01:00. > :01:04.inclined to see Arlene Foster move to the right in order to consolidate
:01:05. > :01:11.the party and keep them in the three line whip. That is interesting. What
:01:12. > :01:15.is your story? I had to. I think the first one was the referendum on
:01:16. > :01:19.equal marriage south of the border. For a country that is perceived as
:01:20. > :01:23.being very Conservative and very Catholic, the people as usual were
:01:24. > :01:27.way ahead of the politicians when it came to this issue, just as they
:01:28. > :01:32.work on the issue of abortion and polls north and south of the border
:01:33. > :01:34.as we have seen from the joint BBC and RTE poll show people are at the
:01:35. > :01:35.same level. Will David Cameron
:01:36. > :01:48.get his way in Europe? Are Labour MPs coming to terms
:01:49. > :01:54.with the idea that Jeremy Corbyn All questions for The Week Ahead
:01:55. > :02:08.and the Year Ahead. And joining us to gaze
:02:09. > :02:10.into our crystal ball for 2016 is the Conservative
:02:11. > :02:19.MP, James Cleverly. Welcome to the programme. If the
:02:20. > :02:24.Prime Minister cannot even get his minimum demands in the renegotiation
:02:25. > :02:28.with Europe, would you vote to leave? I've always felt his best
:02:29. > :02:32.chance of getting a good result from Europe is if there is a credible
:02:33. > :02:37.leave campaign, with people like me saying that if we don't get a good
:02:38. > :02:44.deal for Britain we would campaign to leave. That might feel like a
:02:45. > :02:48.stone in his shoe at the moment but unless people genuinely believe that
:02:49. > :02:58.he won't get the best deal for Britain.
:02:59. > :03:03.He says he rules nothing out. No one really believes the Prime Minister
:03:04. > :03:08.wants to leave the European Union or would lead a campaign to do so. But
:03:09. > :03:13.if the country as a whole is making those kind of noises, the people the
:03:14. > :03:17.Prime Minister is negotiating with, our partners in Europe, may think it
:03:18. > :03:22.is in their best interests to give him the deal he's looking for.
:03:23. > :03:27.Should he be asking for more? The Prime Minister is always at his best
:03:28. > :03:35.when his bold, I think you should be cheeky with the things he asks for,
:03:36. > :03:46.but recognise we are not going to get everything. Could we get more
:03:47. > :03:50.than he is asking for? The particular vehicle that he uses to
:03:51. > :03:55.get results shouldn't be quite so important as the results themselves.
:03:56. > :04:00.What you are not saying, but it is clear what you think, he should be
:04:01. > :04:05.tougher with Europe. I don't think it is possible to be tough enough
:04:06. > :04:10.with Europe. We've got to keep pushing and if we get something,
:04:11. > :04:16.push for more. Ultimately the deal he comes back with will be judged by
:04:17. > :04:19.the British people. I understand that. Tory politicians say that
:04:20. > :04:25.simply because they don't want to answer the questions I am asking
:04:26. > :04:30.because that is flannel. Most Conservative backbenchers I speak to
:04:31. > :04:34.think what he's asking for is not nearly enough. If he cannot even
:04:35. > :04:39.bring that back, I would suggest to you he will not carry a majority of
:04:40. > :04:44.his MPs in Parliament. The deal on the table... We have seen this from
:04:45. > :04:49.the Paris climate summit, the deals are done in the 11th hour so we will
:04:50. > :04:55.know what deal is on the table only at the 11th hour, then we will judge
:04:56. > :04:59.that deal when we see it. When you negotiate, you don't come out with
:05:00. > :05:06.demands and then as the negotiation goes on make these demands even
:05:07. > :05:11.greater! Yes, you do. I've never seen a negotiation like that, but
:05:12. > :05:17.good luck to you. What demand should he ask for that he's not asking for
:05:18. > :05:21.now? I will not try to second-guess because you have got to trade
:05:22. > :05:25.things, give a little bit there... I'm asking you to tell me what you
:05:26. > :05:30.think he should be asking of Europe that he's not asking at the moment.
:05:31. > :05:36.Most people would agree we want to have better control around who gets
:05:37. > :05:41.benefits. No, he's asking for that. Let me try one more time - what
:05:42. > :05:47.should he ask for that he's not asking for at the moment? As I said,
:05:48. > :05:54.I'm not going to second-guess that. I give up! Let me come on to Mr
:05:55. > :05:59.Corbyn. I would suggest to you, Tom Newton Dunn, that Jeremy Corbyn is
:06:00. > :06:03.ending this year in a much more secure position than it looked when
:06:04. > :06:08.he first got elected or at the Labour Party conference. I
:06:09. > :06:16.completely agree with you. When this crystallised was during the Syria
:06:17. > :06:28.vote, the week before last, when we thought the majority of Conservative
:06:29. > :06:32.MPs would abstain -- Labour MPs. Perhaps the Prime Minister's case
:06:33. > :06:37.wasn't that strong but they felt scared. The Corbyn machine, the
:06:38. > :06:42.unions put a lot of pressure on them and that was the turning point. He
:06:43. > :06:46.played his part in getting the Chancellor to withdraw on the tax
:06:47. > :06:50.credit front, he has carried the bulk of his Parliamentary party on
:06:51. > :06:56.Syria and most of his cabinet as well, and I would suggest, Helen,
:06:57. > :07:01.that the anti-Jeremy Corbyn forces are now bereft of a strategy. Yes,
:07:02. > :07:07.they have a huge problem that the members who voted for Jeremy Corbyn
:07:08. > :07:13.think he is doing really well. The PLP needs to get behind him. The
:07:14. > :07:25.problem is I think sometimes we get the narrative on Corbyn wrong. A lot
:07:26. > :07:28.of his deeply held principles, think about giving that free vote on
:07:29. > :07:36.Syria, he has been a member of the Stop The War coalition since it
:07:37. > :07:46.started, and yet he didn't say Acme or you will go. But he will now,
:07:47. > :07:53.given that he is ending the year in a pretty strong decision, he will, I
:07:54. > :07:58.suggest, in the New Year, start to remould the Labour Party much more
:07:59. > :08:03.in his image of what he stands for. Absolutely. I don't think there's
:08:04. > :08:07.much chance of being a successful challenge to Jeremy Corbyn in 2016
:08:08. > :08:10.and that's because the members are broadly behind him. The reason
:08:11. > :08:14.that's a disaster for the Labour Party is because of what will happen
:08:15. > :08:19.in September, the annual Labour Party conference by the seaside
:08:20. > :08:23.somewhere. They will use that moment to push through rule changes to make
:08:24. > :08:28.it harder for the Parliamentary Labour Party and mainstream forces
:08:29. > :08:33.to fight against what he wants, and to embed what they think in terms of
:08:34. > :08:42.official Labour Party positions and what Helen said he should do. When
:08:43. > :08:46.Mr Corbyn won the Labour leadership, the Conservatives thought Christmas
:08:47. > :08:51.had come early. He is actually proving to be a tougher leader than
:08:52. > :08:56.you thought. Only lazy observers would assume his leadership would
:08:57. > :09:00.make life easy for us. He galvanised a huge number of people in the
:09:01. > :09:04.country. I think he is so wrong on so many levels it is beyond belief
:09:05. > :09:09.but lots of other people seem to think he is right. We need to find
:09:10. > :09:13.ways of countering his political agenda because it is wrong and
:09:14. > :09:17.dangerous, but we need to do so at the same time as understanding why
:09:18. > :09:22.he managed to have such a grass-roots appeal. Although you all
:09:23. > :09:26.seem to be agreed he is ending the year on a strong note, the Labour
:09:27. > :09:33.Party Christmas party was not a lot of laughs, was it? What happened? It
:09:34. > :09:38.sounded like a slightly awkward occasion. This is the moment when
:09:39. > :09:42.all of the Labour Party staff get together, a free fake, one of the
:09:43. > :09:47.Shadow Cabinet plays Santa. You've got to picture the scene, about ten
:09:48. > :09:52.tables of staff who all pretty much come from the mainstream, and one
:09:53. > :09:57.and a half tables of allies of Jeremy Corbyn huddled in one part,
:09:58. > :10:02.and the two clans didn't really mix. There was only one real moment of
:10:03. > :10:11.dissent it felt like when somebody at around 1115 PM Port Things Can
:10:12. > :10:16.Only Get Better on, and that is about as open as Labour Party
:10:17. > :10:23.revolts get. I want to show you a Christmas party from the Daily
:10:24. > :10:32.Politics archive. Who is our secret Santa? Here he comes. It is a bit
:10:33. > :10:38.difficult to see. The first clue is that he is a Labour MP, he's been a
:10:39. > :10:44.member of Parliament since 1983 for the smallest constituency in
:10:45. > :10:49.Britain. Next clue, he is one of just 12 Labour MPs to back Plaid
:10:50. > :11:00.Cymru and the SNP's call for an inquiry into the war. Finally, he
:11:01. > :11:17.chairs the Parliamentary wing of CND, and you should know this, Meg?
:11:18. > :11:32.Jeremy Corbyn? I thought it was the real Santa! Yes please, thank you
:11:33. > :11:36.very much. Jeremy Corbyn, having more fun at the Daily Politics
:11:37. > :11:41.Christmas party than he did the Labour Party one.
:11:42. > :11:51.Will there be an EU referendum next year? No. Yes. Yes. No. By this time
:11:52. > :12:03.next year will Jeremy Corbyn still be a Labour leader? ALL: Yes.
:12:04. > :12:09.If David Cameron loses the referendum, will he be able to
:12:10. > :12:13.survive as Prime Minister? Yes. You have got to say that!
:12:14. > :12:21.Will Philip Hammond remained Foreign Secretary next year? On what? Will
:12:22. > :12:28.he remain Foreign Secretary? No. They might have to be a reshuffle.
:12:29. > :12:34.Hilary Benn, will he remain as Shadow Foreign Secretary? No. Will
:12:35. > :12:40.the Government finally approved a third runway at Heathrow? No,
:12:41. > :12:49.definitely not. Yes. No. Will we ever get to see the Chilcot inquiry
:12:50. > :12:55.in 2016? Yes. No. I don't know. Will Donald Trump win the Republican
:12:56. > :13:05.nomination next year? No. No. Who is going to be the new Mayor of London?
:13:06. > :13:09.Sadiq Khan. Probably Sadiq Khan, it is a Labour city. Zac Goldsmith, and
:13:10. > :13:16.it is not a Labour city, trust me. He would be much better at soaking
:13:17. > :13:20.up the second preference votes. That's a bit technical for us!
:13:21. > :13:22.That's all for today and, in fact, all from
:13:23. > :13:25.the Sunday Politics this year. I'll be back here on 10th January.
:13:26. > :13:27.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:13:28. > :13:29.Unless, of course, it's the festive season.