0:00:40 > 0:00:41Morning, everyone.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43I'm Sarah Smith and this is the Sunday Politics -
0:00:43 > 0:00:45your inside briefing on all the big
0:00:45 > 0:00:47political stories happening in Westminster and beyond.
0:00:47 > 0:00:52Coming up on today's show.
0:00:54 > 0:01:07The decision to release serial sex attacker John Worboys...
0:01:07 > 0:01:10Does the Government now "look more like the country it represents"?
0:01:10 > 0:01:13After a tricky reshuffle, we speak to one of the new faces sitting
0:01:13 > 0:01:15around the Cabinet table - the immigration minister
0:01:15 > 0:01:16Caroline Nokes.
0:01:16 > 0:01:18Does the Government have a clearer idea about what our future
0:01:19 > 0:01:21And here...
0:01:21 > 0:01:23After a week of bitter exchanges over Barry McElduff's Kingsmill
0:01:23 > 0:01:25video, Sinn Fein and the DUP softened the political tone.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28But do the three smaller parties think we're any
0:01:28 > 0:01:31closer to a breakthrough?
0:01:38 > 0:01:39All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41And sitting around our top table today, I'm joined
0:01:41 > 0:01:44by some familiar faces.
0:01:44 > 0:01:46We tried a reshuffle of our own but they simply refused
0:01:46 > 0:01:48to budge: Tom Newton Dunn, Julia Hartley-Brewer,
0:01:48 > 0:01:52and Steve Richards.
0:01:52 > 0:01:55Now, after a pretty bumpy 2017, Theresa May actually went
0:01:55 > 0:01:57in to the Christmas break in relatively good political health.
0:01:57 > 0:02:01So, what better way to kick off 2018 than by shaking up her top team
0:02:01 > 0:02:02and reasserting her authority?
0:02:02 > 0:02:10But as she found this week, things don't always go according to plan.
0:02:14 > 0:02:17If you're going to carry out major surgery on your Government, you need
0:02:17 > 0:02:24to be sure the prognosis is good.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27It was a picture of health to begin with, a fresh,
0:02:27 > 0:02:29new team at Party HQ, but before long, complications
0:02:29 > 0:02:34arose.
0:02:34 > 0:02:36Justine Greening, who's had a rocky time at Education, decided
0:02:36 > 0:02:38she'd had enough.
0:02:38 > 0:02:39She quit the Government rather than accept a
0:02:39 > 0:02:41sideways move.
0:02:41 > 0:02:43While Jeremy Hunt refused to budge from his job at
0:02:43 > 0:02:47Health.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50He even left his meeting having added social care to his job
0:02:50 > 0:02:54title.
0:02:54 > 0:02:57There was a fresher look among the junior ministerial ranks.
0:02:57 > 0:02:59But when the new Cabinet met on Tuesday morning, it looked...
0:02:59 > 0:03:02Well, very much like the old one.
0:03:02 > 0:03:04Normally loyal Conservative grandee Nicholas Soames asked, "Is that it?"
0:03:04 > 0:03:06The state of the NHS then caused more pain.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09Dozens of senior doctors wrote to the Prime Minister saying conditions
0:03:09 > 0:03:10in some hospitals were becoming intolerable.
0:03:10 > 0:03:14Patients were dying prematurely.
0:03:14 > 0:03:17We have now clearly reached the point where the NHS
0:03:17 > 0:03:19cannot meet the standards of care that we would,
0:03:19 > 0:03:26all of us in the NHS, ministers included, want to provide.
0:03:26 > 0:03:28At Prime Minister's Questions, the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn
0:03:28 > 0:03:30pressed on the bruise.
0:03:30 > 0:03:33We know the Prime Minister recognises there is a
0:03:33 > 0:03:35crisis in our NHS, because she wanted to sack
0:03:35 > 0:03:41the Health Secretary last week but was too weak to do it.
0:03:41 > 0:03:43Mr Corbyn announced his own reshuffle towards the end of the
0:03:43 > 0:03:45week, with a surprising return to the front
0:03:45 > 0:03:46bench for Clive Lewis, who
0:03:46 > 0:03:51has been cleared of sexual harassment claims.
0:03:51 > 0:03:55While two other Labour MPs, Kelvin Hopkins and
0:03:55 > 0:04:00Ivan Lewis, have been referred to an independent disciplinary
0:04:00 > 0:04:02panel over allegations of sexual misconduct.
0:04:02 > 0:04:04On Friday, US President Donald Trump raised the temperature, cancelling
0:04:04 > 0:04:08his visit to the UK next month to open the new American Embassy.
0:04:08 > 0:04:10Calling the decision to relocate the building to an off
0:04:10 > 0:04:14location is a bad deal.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16His friends on this side of the pond suspected
0:04:16 > 0:04:22there were other reasons for his decision.
0:04:22 > 0:04:25Just maybe, Sadiq Khan, Jeremy Corbyn in the Labour Party
0:04:25 > 0:04:29planning mass protests, maybe those optics he didn't like the look of.
0:04:29 > 0:04:32Nigel Farage also set pulses racing with this:
0:04:32 > 0:04:33I'm reaching the point of
0:04:33 > 0:04:35thinking that we should have a second referendum because...
0:04:35 > 0:04:36On what?
0:04:36 > 0:04:39On EU membership.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41The whole thing?!
0:04:41 > 0:04:42Of course, of course.
0:04:42 > 0:04:43The Conservatives hope focusing on the
0:04:43 > 0:04:45environment will bring the party back to health.
0:04:45 > 0:04:47The Prime Minister teamed up with her new eco-warrior
0:04:47 > 0:04:50Environment Secretary, Michael Gove, to crack down on the use of
0:04:50 > 0:04:51plastics.
0:04:51 > 0:04:53We must reduce the demand for plastic, reduce the number of
0:04:53 > 0:04:55plastics in circulation and improve our recycling rates.
0:04:55 > 0:04:57It all seems strangely reminiscent of someone who
0:04:57 > 0:05:01once said, vote blue, go green.
0:05:01 > 0:05:05In another tricky week that's left the
0:05:05 > 0:05:12PM looking a little green around the gills.
0:05:17 > 0:05:20Now, let's pick up on a story which broke overnight: the new
0:05:20 > 0:05:22Justice Secretary David Gauke is considering a judicial review
0:05:22 > 0:05:24of the decision to release the serial sex attacker
0:05:24 > 0:05:28John Worboys on parole.
0:05:28 > 0:05:31Earlier this month the Parole Board announced that he would be released
0:05:31 > 0:05:33under strict licence conditions.
0:05:33 > 0:05:36He was jailed in 2009 for a minimum of eight years for drugging
0:05:36 > 0:05:37and sexually assaulting 12 women.
0:05:37 > 0:05:40However, it's thought he may have carried out as many as 100 rapes
0:05:40 > 0:05:48and sexual assaults on women in London in the early 2000s.
0:05:48 > 0:05:53I will take this to the panel first. This is obviously a very emotive
0:05:53 > 0:05:57case, and people get very worked up about it, but the politics of the
0:05:57 > 0:06:03Justice Secretary, Tom, asking for a judicial review against the body
0:06:03 > 0:06:05which is really under the supervision of his own department,
0:06:05 > 0:06:10this gets a little odd.Justice Secretary criticises Justice
0:06:10 > 0:06:13Department shock. There is a whiff of panic in the Government over this
0:06:13 > 0:06:19now. I think David Gauke's decision is emblematic of that. For whatever
0:06:19 > 0:06:22reason, the Government have found themselves on the wrong side of
0:06:22 > 0:06:26public opinion on this. An appalling mass serial rapist is about to be
0:06:26 > 0:06:31let out of prison this week, having served less than ten years for
0:06:31 > 0:06:36crimes most of which he wasn't even prosecuted for. They have seven or
0:06:36 > 0:06:39eight days to do this judicial review, and David Gauke has only
0:06:39 > 0:06:45done it because he is under pressure from other Cabinet ministers. The
0:06:45 > 0:06:48entire Justice Department and justice policy has really been
0:06:48 > 0:06:52interested for up to seven years because the Tory Government really
0:06:52 > 0:06:58can't make up its mind between a liberal justice establishment is
0:06:58 > 0:07:02based on rehabilitation and less time in prison and the more
0:07:02 > 0:07:07traditional Tory authoritarian lock them up and throw the key away
0:07:07 > 0:07:13system, and the consequence is today's decision. You have had five
0:07:13 > 0:07:22Justice Secretary is, from the king of soft justice himself, Ken
0:07:22 > 0:07:26of soft justice himself, Ken Clarke, and now David Gauke, so perhaps it's
0:07:26 > 0:07:30no huge surprise that the system is now in a bit of a mess.If Tom is
0:07:30 > 0:07:33right that the Government are playing catch up on John Worboys
0:07:33 > 0:07:38because of the huge public outcry, is it nonetheless the right thing to
0:07:38 > 0:07:44do?It seems to me the parole board breached their own rules. The
0:07:44 > 0:07:47victims have a right to make representations. We know that some
0:07:47 > 0:07:52of the victims whose cases were brought, and again, he is not
0:07:52 > 0:07:59convicted as a serial rapist because those cases one brought to court, a
0:07:59 > 0:08:06decision made by Kia Starmer, then the Director of Public Prosecutions.
0:08:06 > 0:08:10The other fundamental issue is a lot of what Tom was saying, that the
0:08:10 > 0:08:14Tory Government is out of touch, as I think all of the establishment and
0:08:14 > 0:08:20party leaders are. Is this ridiculous nonsense that someone is
0:08:20 > 0:08:26released halfway through a sentence, if you are sentenced to ten years or
0:08:26 > 0:08:31whatever, you should be serving the full sentence, and maybe six months
0:08:31 > 0:08:35off for good behaviour, or better still, more years on for bad
0:08:35 > 0:08:39behaviour. I think the British public think the justice system is
0:08:39 > 0:08:43an absolute joke, and they think that because it is.You raise an
0:08:43 > 0:08:46interesting point about what the public care about versus what is
0:08:46 > 0:08:50debated at Westminster. We spent an enormous amount of last year talking
0:08:50 > 0:08:55about Brexit, to the exclusion of most other things. A few other
0:08:55 > 0:09:00issues have raised their heads this week, Steve. First and foremost, the
0:09:00 > 0:09:04NHS has been causing more than a few political problems for the
0:09:04 > 0:09:09Government.If Brexit wasn't swamping everything, this would be
0:09:09 > 0:09:14the overwhelming issue. Voters are much more concerned about this than
0:09:14 > 0:09:19anything else, with good cause. At some point, there will have to be a
0:09:19 > 0:09:26grown discussion about funding of the NHS and how we pay for it.
0:09:26 > 0:09:30Whether that will be possible in the current climate I doubt. But I don't
0:09:30 > 0:09:34think it's entirely impossible because I think the crisis will
0:09:34 > 0:09:43intensify. In a way, that has been overlooked, that 2017 election
0:09:43 > 0:09:46partly accepted miraculously in British politics that to get
0:09:46 > 0:09:50improvements in some services you have to pay for it. So, maybe there
0:09:50 > 0:09:54will be a grown-up debate, but don't hold your breath. In the meantime,
0:09:54 > 0:09:59it will be an issue that Theresa May will have to keep at least one eye
0:09:59 > 0:10:05on, as well as trying to negotiate the impossible with Brexit.At PMQs,
0:10:05 > 0:10:11the Prime Minister said the NHS was the best prepared it had ever been,
0:10:11 > 0:10:17and doctors were saying that patients were dying prematurely. In
0:10:17 > 0:10:25the short-term, political damage absolutely. The tanks are parked on
0:10:25 > 0:10:28Labour territory there. The general consensus in the country is not that
0:10:28 > 0:10:34they trust the Tories on the NHS, which is a big issue for them. A lot
0:10:34 > 0:10:39of the problems are down to the fact that we're getting older and living
0:10:39 > 0:10:41longer, and there are amazing treatments, operations and drugs
0:10:41 > 0:10:46that can keep us alive. We see it as a problem but it is a wonderful
0:10:46 > 0:10:49miracle of modern science and medicine and we should be grateful
0:10:49 > 0:10:56for such problems.The big news was that we were going to get a
0:10:56 > 0:10:59Government that looked more like the rest of the country in the
0:10:59 > 0:11:02reshuffle. It turned out not to be quite as dramatic as some of us
0:11:02 > 0:11:09expected. Was it a Government fail? Depends how you define fail. It has
0:11:09 > 0:11:13taken a few days for the penny to drop, though I had my suspicions on
0:11:13 > 0:11:18the night when some of the 20 15th intake got no promotions at all. It
0:11:18 > 0:11:26was a tell-tale sign. Was it a success in that it stored to the top
0:11:26 > 0:11:34of the buildings? Not really, she just rearranged the deckchairs on
0:11:34 > 0:11:46the Titanic. Caroline Noakes was attending Cabinet rather than being
0:11:46 > 0:11:50a full cabinet minister, but the Theresa May managed to fend off the
0:11:50 > 0:11:53vultures coming for her by absolutely wilfully, it now appears,
0:11:53 > 0:12:00failing to put key rivals into key positions, people like Rory Stewart,
0:12:00 > 0:12:11Dominic Raj, some of the 2015ers? It was a public fail but digging in
0:12:11 > 0:12:13privately.
0:12:13 > 0:12:15Well, listening to all that is my first guest, Caroline Nokes.
0:12:15 > 0:12:18She was promoted to immigration minister in the reshuffle this
0:12:18 > 0:12:23week and, in that role, now attends Cabinet.
0:12:23 > 0:12:29Congratulations on the new job. You are presumably part of the making
0:12:29 > 0:12:35the Government look more like the country. Did the Prime Minister
0:12:35 > 0:12:39achieve that?I think she did. Look at the whip's offers, where there
0:12:39 > 0:12:42are more women than ever before. I remember coming in in 2010 and
0:12:42 > 0:12:48looking at a wet's office that was really mail.Why can't we have 50-50
0:12:48 > 0:12:52women in the Cabinet?We are heading in the right direction, there are
0:12:52 > 0:12:59two more women in the Cabinet.Even the Scottish Government has a policy
0:12:59 > 0:13:06of 50-50 in the Cabinet - surely it's possible?We started from a
0:13:06 > 0:13:10very low base of women, even elected. I think we're doing a
0:13:10 > 0:13:13fantastic job of encouraging more women to come forward, and from more
0:13:13 > 0:13:18diverse backgrounds. It is a work in progress but we are headed in the
0:13:18 > 0:13:26right direction.
0:13:26 > 0:13:29right direction. People like Kerry bad not, who went to the same
0:13:29 > 0:13:33university as I did, the University of Sussex, hardly a breeding ground
0:13:33 > 0:13:45for Tory politicians.In the Government, there are 3% non-white
0:13:45 > 0:13:48people - not very representative?We have done a good job of attracting
0:13:48 > 0:13:51more diverse people to come and stand the rise in the Government.
0:13:51 > 0:14:01Our messages, -- our message is, we're working hard to make sure that
0:14:01 > 0:14:05those bright, young women from diverse backgrounds have a chance.
0:14:05 > 0:14:10You know, it's a process, isn't it? We are all climbing up the ladder. I
0:14:10 > 0:14:15think the Cabinet looks better than it did. I have always advocated more
0:14:15 > 0:14:20women in Parliament, and the last debate I did was about getting more
0:14:20 > 0:14:23women to stand in politics, and that really matters.The big news this
0:14:23 > 0:14:28morning is the idea that the Justice Secretary may take a judicial review
0:14:28 > 0:14:32against the release of John Worboys. What is your view on that? Should do
0:14:32 > 0:14:36just this minute himself be taking judicial review is against this kind
0:14:36 > 0:14:41of decision?We will look at the victims of Worboys and we want them
0:14:41 > 0:14:44to get the support they need and to see that justice is being done. It
0:14:44 > 0:14:48is absolutely right that David Gauke is looking at a judicial review.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51None of us feel happy with the parole board decision. This is a man
0:14:51 > 0:14:58who served less than ten years, and it's a horrific number of victims.
0:14:58 > 0:15:02We can't see the parole board's decision or the reasoning for it.
0:15:02 > 0:15:05The Government could change that at a stroke and allow them to publish
0:15:05 > 0:15:10it. Should they?The Justice Secretary is reviewing the process,
0:15:10 > 0:15:14which is important. We want people to have confidence. Our justice
0:15:14 > 0:15:18system is a very old and proud one. Let's not undermine it. Let's make
0:15:18 > 0:15:23sure we get the right decisions in place.Lets get onto your own brief,
0:15:23 > 0:15:29your new brief on immigration. It means you inherit the target of
0:15:29 > 0:15:35reducing net migration to the tens of thousands. The last five
0:15:35 > 0:15:41ministers have failed, will you do it?
0:15:41 > 0:15:45The last five ministers have seen the trajectory heading down, the
0:15:45 > 0:15:51last figures we saw in the summer show it dropped significantly.It
0:15:51 > 0:15:55dropped slightly, 14,000 lower than when you came to power in 2010,
0:15:55 > 0:16:00overall net migration at 240 4000. We want to make sure this is a
0:16:00 > 0:16:03brittle open for business, that the brightest and best can come here to
0:16:03 > 0:16:09work and study. We are listening to the universities and to business via
0:16:09 > 0:16:13the immigration advisory committee...So if we are open to
0:16:13 > 0:16:16business and the brightest and best come here why have this target of
0:16:16 > 0:16:19reducing net migration to less than 100,000? Lots of Cabinet ministers
0:16:19 > 0:16:24would like to get rid of it. You could have lifted and the 2017
0:16:24 > 0:16:29manifesto and got rid of quite a headache.We had a referendum in
0:16:29 > 0:16:332016 which sent a clear message that people want that target to remain,
0:16:33 > 0:16:36they want to see as reducing immigration to sustainable levels
0:16:36 > 0:16:41and we are doing just that. It is in the manifesto so that is the
0:16:41 > 0:16:45direction of travel.Immigration from outside the EU, you claimed
0:16:45 > 0:16:50that once we leave everything will change with freedom of movement, but
0:16:50 > 0:16:55net migration from outside the EU which you have complete control over
0:16:55 > 0:16:59now, it's over 100,000 in and of itself. Why hasn't that been tackled
0:16:59 > 0:17:04in the seven years that this has now been a target?We are attacking it,
0:17:04 > 0:17:08and we are doing this I have a banking measures you have heard
0:17:08 > 0:17:10about this week, working to make sure that those with bank accounts
0:17:10 > 0:17:16and are not here legally have those Fresnel cursive necessary, that is
0:17:16 > 0:17:20important, we have a raft of measures but the current Home
0:17:20 > 0:17:23Secretary and the previous one have been clear on this, we will get
0:17:23 > 0:17:28these numbers down and do it in a manageable and sustained way.It is
0:17:28 > 0:17:34not what business one. The Tory mayor Andy Street says the target
0:17:34 > 0:17:38should be more like 150,000 so businesses can attract people with
0:17:38 > 0:17:42the skills they need and George Osborne says this is economic and
0:17:42 > 0:17:46made illiterate because we need higher migration and that --
0:17:46 > 0:17:49economically illiterate.Which is why we are listening to the
0:17:49 > 0:17:52committee which will report in September which will give a solid
0:17:52 > 0:17:56expert economist's view on what migration levels should be. But it
0:17:56 > 0:18:00was in the manifesto, we are determined to head in that direction
0:18:00 > 0:18:04and bring immigration down to a sustainable level.If you're
0:18:04 > 0:18:08immigration advisor comes to you and says somebody like Andy Street is
0:18:08 > 0:18:14right we need around 150,000 coming, will you change it? Because this was
0:18:14 > 0:18:20a manifesto promise to get it down to under 110,000 a year, so what
0:18:20 > 0:18:25will that looked like if you have disabled we didn't get it right.Am
0:18:25 > 0:18:30not going to prejudge.I and asking what you will do with their view
0:18:30 > 0:18:34because you are stuck with this promise of reducing immigration to
0:18:34 > 0:18:38tens of thousands, there's not much you can do if they oppose that.You
0:18:38 > 0:18:42are telling someone who has been in the job less than a week that she
0:18:42 > 0:18:46should make a decision on the hoof in a TV studio! Not a chance. What I
0:18:46 > 0:18:50need to do is listen to the experts and come up with the direction of
0:18:50 > 0:18:54travel that satisfies those who voted Believe in the referendum,
0:18:54 > 0:18:59that satisfies businesses, like the brilliant Russell group University
0:18:59 > 0:19:03and the one in Southampton on the edge of my constituency can still
0:19:03 > 0:19:07attract the best students. This is a really difficult complicated area.
0:19:07 > 0:19:11He mentioned the need to attract the brightest students. While other
0:19:11 > 0:19:16numbers of students coming to Britain to study included in the net
0:19:16 > 0:19:19migration figures? You could help yourselves quickly by taking them
0:19:19 > 0:19:23out of it. Just about every Cabinet member wants them removed from
0:19:23 > 0:19:27official figures, why are they there?The O M as determinate
0:19:27 > 0:19:30students should be included because they are here for more than 12
0:19:30 > 0:19:37months. We must make sure we have the public services that support
0:19:37 > 0:19:40them. Many of them go home after their study as they should but it is
0:19:40 > 0:19:44important that we work with the immigration advisory committee to
0:19:44 > 0:19:50get the right answers.You are happy about students being included in the
0:19:50 > 0:19:54migration figures?And happy we've got 24% more coming to our
0:19:54 > 0:19:58universities than we had in 2010. I'm happy that we are attracting a
0:19:58 > 0:20:03great calibre of student here, I'm equally happy that our former
0:20:03 > 0:20:07feminists are cracked down on bogus colleges and close them because we
0:20:07 > 0:20:11want bright students to come here and in the -- that our former Prime
0:20:11 > 0:20:16Minister cracked down on bogus colleges and closed them.Button
0:20:16 > 0:20:20back to the panel, Steve Camille can't envy the new Immigration
0:20:20 > 0:20:25Minister being tasked with reducing immigration to a level that no other
0:20:25 > 0:20:30Immigration Minister has been able to achieve.I don't envy you, I
0:20:30 > 0:20:34don't know your Private view but I do note that most Cabinet ministers
0:20:34 > 0:20:38don't want student numbers to be part of the total figure and Theresa
0:20:38 > 0:20:45May alone is still pressing this. I've just been doing a series about
0:20:45 > 0:20:49a David Cameron. He made a series of targets which were never met, as you
0:20:49 > 0:20:54said in the interview. Good luck with that. Lots of people I meet now
0:20:54 > 0:21:00who were in favour of Brexit, like farmers, pleading, as you will know,
0:21:00 > 0:21:04for cheap Labour from Eastern Europe to continue. They don't want to fill
0:21:04 > 0:21:14in loads more forms to get them. So there's a lot of talk
0:21:14 > 0:21:17there's a lot of talk about Nimby free movement and you have a tough
0:21:17 > 0:21:23brief.Julia, should net immigration be reduced to tens of thousands, is
0:21:23 > 0:21:27it important to the public?I find it bizarre they asked to a target
0:21:27 > 0:21:31they've never done anything to reach, certainly the immigration
0:21:31 > 0:21:35levels that they were able to control under the coalition and
0:21:35 > 0:21:39David Cameron on his own, the numbers can't be controlled
0:21:39 > 0:21:43completely, they never even came close, it was more than double,
0:21:43 > 0:21:48about 250,000. I find this row about students strange. If you live in the
0:21:48 > 0:21:51country for three or four years you need somewhere to live, you'll be
0:21:51 > 0:21:56getting buses and trains, might need to go to the hospital, is that the
0:21:56 > 0:22:00idea that these people don't exist because they are not here
0:22:00 > 0:22:04permanently? And some of them do stay. It's ridiculous. We need a
0:22:04 > 0:22:10sensible debate. Brexit wasn't about ending immigration. It was about us.
0:22:10 > 0:22:14Like virtually every other country in the world choosing who gets to
0:22:14 > 0:22:18come here. If you are qualified and have a skill we need we would love
0:22:18 > 0:22:24to have you, come on in, the water is lovely! But if we just want cheap
0:22:24 > 0:22:29Labour subsidised by the taxpayer with a housing benefit, to do jobs
0:22:29 > 0:22:32not paid enough, then I don't think we should. When it comes to farmers
0:22:32 > 0:22:39we should pay more for...Julia has given quite a good explanation of
0:22:39 > 0:22:43why the target was set up and should probably stay because if there is no
0:22:43 > 0:22:47target, then cheap Labour will continue to flow in because it's the
0:22:47 > 0:22:51easiest thing for business to do. If you are limited in who you can bring
0:22:51 > 0:22:56in new might turn to the indigenous British population and start hiring
0:22:56 > 0:23:01them to do decent jobs they are perfectly capable of doing.The
0:23:01 > 0:23:05panel will be staying with us throughout the programme. Thank you
0:23:05 > 0:23:08to Caroline Nokes, the Immigration Minister, for coming in.
0:23:08 > 0:23:11Now with all the other stuff that's been going on this week,
0:23:11 > 0:23:13you might be concerned we'd forgotten about the small
0:23:13 > 0:23:14matter of Brexit.
0:23:14 > 0:23:16But don't worry, it's still very much on the agenda.
0:23:16 > 0:23:19Having sealed a deal on the divorce talks,
0:23:19 > 0:23:20the focus is now shifting to the future relationship.
0:23:20 > 0:23:23The EU says we can only have an 'off-the-shelf' model,
0:23:23 > 0:23:25like the deals with Norway or Canada; but the UK Government
0:23:25 > 0:23:30says we can be far more ambitious, as Elizabeth Glinka reports.
0:23:30 > 0:23:38# Do you have the time # To listen to me whine?#.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43In her Florence speech, Theresa May made it
0:23:43 > 0:23:45clear that when it comes to
0:23:45 > 0:23:47trade negotiations with the EU, the UK isn't looking for any
0:23:47 > 0:23:48off-the-shelf kind of deal.
0:23:48 > 0:23:52It wants something special and bespoke.
0:23:52 > 0:23:54I'm optimistic about what we can achieve
0:23:54 > 0:23:58by finding a creative solution to a new economic relationship that
0:23:58 > 0:24:03can support prosperity for all our peoples.
0:24:03 > 0:24:06Before Christmas, the senior official in charge of Brexit
0:24:06 > 0:24:08told the Cabinet that when it comes to that
0:24:08 > 0:24:11creative solution, they
0:24:11 > 0:24:14should start thinking in terms of three baskets, what some people
0:24:14 > 0:24:15are calling managed divergence.
0:24:15 > 0:24:17The Institute for Government has been
0:24:17 > 0:24:21looking at what it means.
0:24:21 > 0:24:22Three baskets corresponds to the three areas
0:24:22 > 0:24:25that Theresa May spoke about in her Florence speech.
0:24:25 > 0:24:27We have full alignment, where we will continue to
0:24:27 > 0:24:30meet the same outcomes in the same way as we do now.
0:24:30 > 0:24:31Regulatory equivalence is where we will
0:24:31 > 0:24:33continue to meet the same outcomes as the EU
0:24:33 > 0:24:35but might go about it in a
0:24:35 > 0:24:36slightly different way.
0:24:36 > 0:24:40And then the final basket around divergence,
0:24:40 > 0:24:43where we will go about things in a different way and may choose
0:24:43 > 0:24:45to take completely different outcomes at the
0:24:45 > 0:24:47end of it.
0:24:47 > 0:24:50OK, so if we were to look at particular industries, say
0:24:50 > 0:24:52something like aviation, maybe workers' rights, we might put them
0:24:52 > 0:24:57in this basket because we are saying not much is going to change.
0:24:57 > 0:24:58It would be very difficult to put
0:24:58 > 0:25:01whole industries and whole sectors in specific baskets.
0:25:01 > 0:25:05If you take agriculture, for example, state aid
0:25:05 > 0:25:11and how much overall we can subsidise our farmers may well sit
0:25:11 > 0:25:14in full alignment, whereas issues about agricultural and environmental
0:25:14 > 0:25:15protection standards, we could continue to
0:25:15 > 0:25:17meet the same goals but
0:25:17 > 0:25:22by different means, and they can sit in the middle basket.
0:25:22 > 0:25:25Whereas, actually, exactly what we subsidise
0:25:25 > 0:25:28our farmers for could be completely up to the UK and sit in the
0:25:28 > 0:25:29divergent basket.
0:25:29 > 0:25:31So it would be very difficult to put single sectors
0:25:31 > 0:25:33in single baskets.
0:25:33 > 0:25:36If the UK is looking for a high degree of access
0:25:36 > 0:25:38to the single market, then the EU will expect
0:25:38 > 0:25:42lots of things ending up in the full alignment basket,
0:25:42 > 0:25:44whereas the UK will probably want to try and pull as much as possible
0:25:44 > 0:25:47into the regulatory equivalence basket.
0:25:47 > 0:25:52Of course, the point of all this is is to remind the EU that
0:25:52 > 0:25:55when it comes to these negotiations, the UK is in a unique position
0:25:55 > 0:25:58because currently we are completely in sync.
0:25:58 > 0:26:01It's in the interests of Britain and the EU to get on
0:26:01 > 0:26:08together.
0:26:08 > 0:26:10People are thinking that it's a binary thing, we are either
0:26:10 > 0:26:14in the EU or we're out, that it's night and day, but it isn't.
0:26:14 > 0:26:15The point about managed divergence is
0:26:15 > 0:26:17that it does give us much more flexibility.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20We can decide for ourselves which bits we want to keep
0:26:20 > 0:26:22and which bits we want to amend or get rid of.
0:26:22 > 0:26:23And I think...
0:26:23 > 0:26:25I think that's a huge opportunity.
0:26:25 > 0:26:26Philip Hammond and David Davies have been
0:26:26 > 0:26:28on a charm offensive in Germany this week,
0:26:28 > 0:26:31so just how are those very British baskets going down in
0:26:31 > 0:26:32Brussels?
0:26:32 > 0:26:35There is a concern that the UK will take a shopping basket,
0:26:35 > 0:26:38pick off the elements of the major trade agreements the EU has secured
0:26:38 > 0:26:40with third countries, take all those together.
0:26:40 > 0:26:43It gets the UK very close to full membership of the single
0:26:43 > 0:26:45market without any of the obligations, so I think
0:26:45 > 0:26:50they view managed divergence as another way in
0:26:50 > 0:26:54which the UK either hopes to cherry pick or have its cake and eat it.
0:26:54 > 0:26:56All member states will agree that they can't
0:26:56 > 0:26:58set a precedent with the
0:26:58 > 0:27:00UK that then sets internal challenges for themselves over the
0:27:00 > 0:27:02medium to longer term.
0:27:02 > 0:27:08Now, what goes into these baskets remains a
0:27:08 > 0:27:11bit of a mystery, but of course, there are deadlines because the next
0:27:11 > 0:27:14round of talks is due to get under way
0:27:14 > 0:27:15this spring.
0:27:15 > 0:27:17And you can find more Brexit analysis
0:27:17 > 0:27:22and explanation on the BBC website, at bbc.co.uk/Brexit.
0:27:22 > 0:27:24With me now is the Shadow International Trade
0:27:24 > 0:27:28Secretary, Barry Gardiner.
0:27:28 > 0:27:36Welcome to the programme, thank you for coming back. We were learning
0:27:36 > 0:27:38about the different baskets, full alignment, regulatory alignment.
0:27:38 > 0:27:42Labour say you want to give all the benefits and the single market so
0:27:42 > 0:27:49presumably want to stay as much in alignment as we do already?What
0:27:49 > 0:27:52we've said is that the government have said we could have all the
0:27:52 > 0:27:57benefits and we will hold them to that.To do that, we must keep most
0:27:57 > 0:28:03of what we can in the full alignment basket?We want to make sure we get
0:28:03 > 0:28:08as much of the benefits as we currently have once we have left the
0:28:08 > 0:28:13EU.You can't do that and diverged. Absolutely. That's the point.
0:28:13 > 0:28:18Diverges from that, whether through a trade deal with another country or
0:28:18 > 0:28:23whether it is simply because we want to deregulate our standards in the
0:28:23 > 0:28:28UK is going to cause a problem with maintaining the sort of trade we
0:28:28 > 0:28:31have with Europe. It's going to cause that economic bond. But we
0:28:31 > 0:28:35want to make sure we have a Brexit that is for jobs, for the economy
0:28:35 > 0:28:40and that's why we see the benefits of the single market, the benefits
0:28:40 > 0:28:44of the customs union, and swipe we said we wouldn't rule is off the
0:28:44 > 0:28:48table. Whereas the government precisely said it would. And that is
0:28:48 > 0:28:51the red lines that Theresa May put in place that are now causing her
0:28:51 > 0:28:56all these other problems.They've caused a few problems in policy for
0:28:56 > 0:28:59Labour as well because the closer you want to stay to single market
0:28:59 > 0:29:02rules, if we've loved the single market because that is government
0:29:02 > 0:29:08policy, more alignment would have -- if we've left. That is us accepting
0:29:08 > 0:29:13rules we had no say in making, a state you have described as being a
0:29:13 > 0:29:19vassal state.These other uses we really have to resolve. Because you
0:29:19 > 0:29:22are right, once we leave the EU that means we are not a member of the
0:29:22 > 0:29:27single market. It doesn't mean we can't trade into the single market,
0:29:27 > 0:29:33of course we can. We can do that in the same way that Norway does. But
0:29:33 > 0:29:36our economy is very different from that of Norway. And what we need to
0:29:36 > 0:29:41be sure about is when we are making our rules in this country we are
0:29:41 > 0:29:44doing it as close as possible to maintain the trade and the economic
0:29:44 > 0:29:48benefits we get in the European Union.There have been reports this
0:29:48 > 0:29:52week that Labour is working on a policy that would involve staying in
0:29:52 > 0:29:58the customs union. The Robert Peston programme on ITV...That could not
0:29:58 > 0:30:03be the case. I'm sorry to correct you on a technicality. But once you
0:30:03 > 0:30:07leave the EU you leave the treaties and it is the treaties that create
0:30:07 > 0:30:16the customs union. So we could not be a member of the customs union.
0:30:16 > 0:30:20You could be remember of a customs union, which is what Jeremy Corbyn
0:30:20 > 0:30:25was talking about on TV this morning.He was talking about the
0:30:25 > 0:30:29transition period immediately after leaving the EU. That has been our
0:30:29 > 0:30:33position for many months. We were the ones that said, in that
0:30:33 > 0:30:36transitional period, we want the status quo. We want to maintain
0:30:36 > 0:30:42things that are... We want to maintain a customs union and single
0:30:42 > 0:30:46market during that transition.Let's talk about the future after the
0:30:46 > 0:30:53transition period. Let's look at what you said you thought were the
0:30:53 > 0:30:58consequences.
0:31:02 > 0:31:08consequences. Do you still agree with that?I was specifically
0:31:08 > 0:31:12referring to, and if you go back on that quote a little bit, you will
0:31:12 > 0:31:15find we were talking about the turkey situation, which was a
0:31:15 > 0:31:20customs union agreement with the EU. That would be a very bad end point
0:31:20 > 0:31:23for us, because it would mean that the European Union ended up doing
0:31:23 > 0:31:27all the negotiations for trade for the UK. We would have to open our
0:31:27 > 0:31:33markets to any other company in -- any other country they made an
0:31:33 > 0:31:36agreement with. But that country would not have to liberalise its
0:31:36 > 0:31:41markets and open itself up to our goods and services.The common
0:31:41 > 0:31:44commercial policy is what governs all of this and binds us in with
0:31:44 > 0:31:47these trade treaties. The UK Government say they want to leave
0:31:47 > 0:31:55that. Is that the Labour position? We will be...Would you like to join
0:31:55 > 0:31:59something similar once we are no longer members of the EU?I already
0:31:59 > 0:32:03said, we believe that the benefits of what we currently have should be
0:32:03 > 0:32:07maintained as much as possible, and that means that whilst we cannot
0:32:07 > 0:32:12stay in the customs union, we should not have a turkey style customs
0:32:12 > 0:32:15union agreement, because that would be an asymmetrical relationship with
0:32:15 > 0:32:21any trading partner. What we do see as a possibility, and it is what we
0:32:21 > 0:32:32have not ruled out, which is to have a new customs union with the
0:32:32 > 0:32:35European Union, and that is something very interesting wave
0:32:35 > 0:32:40which in paragraph 31 of the cross-border trade taxation bill
0:32:40 > 0:32:44which came in on Monday from the Government, and which we debated
0:32:44 > 0:32:49them, they have actually put provision for that, a new customs
0:32:49 > 0:32:53union, where we would be an equal member.But you cannot possibly
0:32:53 > 0:32:57believe that you can have the benefits of being in a reformed
0:32:57 > 0:33:01customs union relationship with the EU and still have total freedom to
0:33:01 > 0:33:05make new trade deals. You have said you don't want anything which
0:33:05 > 0:33:08precludes us from making independent trade agreements with some of our
0:33:08 > 0:33:13bigger partners.Let's be clear about the nexus of problems we are
0:33:13 > 0:33:20trying to solve the run work our way through. You have, within the
0:33:20 > 0:33:24referendum, a clarity that people were voting for certain political
0:33:24 > 0:33:29issues, whether that was in terms of immigration, regaining sovereignty,
0:33:29 > 0:33:32or simply not paying money into Europe. All of these were things
0:33:32 > 0:33:37people thought they were voting for. If you were to be in a relationship
0:33:37 > 0:33:43in which some of those continued to be the case, where we were rule
0:33:43 > 0:33:52takers and not rule setters, as Norway is at the moment, and they
0:33:52 > 0:33:55are told they have no right to decide what the rules are going to
0:33:55 > 0:33:58be, that is a political problem which many people in this country
0:33:58 > 0:34:03would feel, what was the referendum all about if we don't achieve that?
0:34:03 > 0:34:09Let's...Just let me... I don't think it's clear, the problems we
0:34:09 > 0:34:14are trying to solve. We want to maintain a maximum economic benefit,
0:34:14 > 0:34:17to get the economic benefit of the jobs that we currently get from the
0:34:17 > 0:34:22trading relationship we have in a customs union and in a single market
0:34:22 > 0:34:26with the European Union. But to do that respecting the referendum will
0:34:26 > 0:34:30of the people for those political objectives.We understand that
0:34:30 > 0:34:39point.Labour has to bring back the 42 purse -- the 52% under 48%.We
0:34:39 > 0:34:45understand need to move you on to something else. We have heard the
0:34:45 > 0:34:49new Tory chairman Brandon Lewis say today that if any... He wants new
0:34:49 > 0:34:54Tory candidates to sign up to a respect pledge that they will
0:34:54 > 0:34:57conduct themselves on Twitter and in what they say in a respectful way,
0:34:57 > 0:35:03otherwise they will be removed as candidates.Of course, that's right.
0:35:03 > 0:35:06Jeremy Corbyn said that Labour should do it too. It raises
0:35:06 > 0:35:12questions about some Labour MPs. Jarrod O'Mara, for example, who has
0:35:12 > 0:35:16had the whip suspended.An investigation is being conducted, as
0:35:16 > 0:35:21is appropriate, within all the procedures of our party. Absolutely
0:35:21 > 0:35:25right, suspended.Because of remarks he made about women and homophobic
0:35:25 > 0:35:29comments. Then you look at the Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell,
0:35:29 > 0:35:34against whom no action has been taken, and he has said a number of
0:35:34 > 0:35:39things, but one of them which has been heavily criticised is that he
0:35:39 > 0:35:44wanted... Well, he agreed with people who wanted to see Esther
0:35:44 > 0:35:48McVeigh lynched. We have the audio of this. Let's listen and then we
0:35:48 > 0:35:54will ask you about it.I was up in Liverpool a fortnight ago...
0:36:21 > 0:36:26And obviously, he used a word that we won't be saying on TV, but is
0:36:26 > 0:36:32that respectful language?It is not language I would have used. Earlier
0:36:32 > 0:36:38today, you have been quoting remarks that were made by the President of
0:36:38 > 0:36:42the United States which were deeply offensive and unacceptable.Yes.
0:36:42 > 0:36:48Hang on.But this is about the Labour Party...And you quoted. The
0:36:48 > 0:36:53point I am making is that he was quoting what someone else was
0:36:53 > 0:36:58saying, and I would not have chosen to do that.He was clearly quoting
0:36:58 > 0:37:01with approval, not reporting it.The underlying issue which the
0:37:01 > 0:37:09Conservatives have been trying to cover up through all the smear on
0:37:09 > 0:37:11John McDonnell, Esther McVeigh, who was a Department for Work and
0:37:11 > 0:37:15Pensions minister, and at a time when she was in charge of work and
0:37:15 > 0:37:21pensions as a minister, her company had been reported for breach of
0:37:21 > 0:37:26health and safety guidelines. She is one of the ministers, and for that
0:37:26 > 0:37:30reason...Jeremy Corbyn said we should stick to policies and use
0:37:30 > 0:37:34respectful language. That wasn't respect.That's what I'm doing now,
0:37:34 > 0:37:36and I'm trying to make the underlying political point about
0:37:36 > 0:37:42what's going on here. She was in charge of a department in which she
0:37:42 > 0:37:45was responsible for health and safety when her own company which
0:37:45 > 0:37:53she was a director of, a construction company, they had been
0:37:53 > 0:37:57suspended, their work had had to be suspended twice within three months
0:37:57 > 0:38:01for breach of those health and safety guidelines, putting workers
0:38:01 > 0:38:06at risk in her own company. She is also somebody...We will have to
0:38:06 > 0:38:07leave it
0:38:15 > 0:38:17Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.
0:38:17 > 0:38:21After a week of bitter exchanges over Barry McElduff's Kingsmill
0:38:21 > 0:38:24video, Sinn Fein and the DUP have softened the political tone -
0:38:24 > 0:38:28but does that leave us any closer to a breakthrough at Stormont?
0:38:28 > 0:38:32We'll hear from the Ulster Unionists, the SDLP and Alliance.
0:38:32 > 0:38:34Arlene Foster tells a conference in Killarney that Brexit doesn't
0:38:34 > 0:38:37mean "pulling up the drawbridge".
0:38:37 > 0:38:40And with their thoughts on it all, my guests -
0:38:40 > 0:38:46Felicity Huston and Chris Donnelly.
0:38:48 > 0:38:50A change of tone between the DUP
0:38:50 > 0:38:52and Sinn Fein on The View on Thursday night following
0:38:52 > 0:38:55a toxic week in politics - but will it translate into any kind
0:38:55 > 0:38:58of meaningful move towards the restoration
0:38:58 > 0:39:00of devolved government here?
0:39:00 > 0:39:02I'm joined by the Ulster Unionist leader, Robin Swann,
0:39:02 > 0:39:04the SDLP's Nichola Mallon and Stephen Farry from
0:39:04 > 0:39:11the Alliance Party.
0:39:11 > 0:39:14Welcome to you all.
0:39:14 > 0:39:15Barry McElduff sparked the controversy which raged
0:39:15 > 0:39:17throughout the week.
0:39:17 > 0:39:19The controversial cartoon and reaction to it prolonged
0:39:19 > 0:39:22the rancour, but have Sinn Fein and the DUP now calmed the waters
0:39:22 > 0:39:29in what they said on Thursday night?
0:39:29 > 0:39:37Barry McElduff's actions cause huge hurt and pain and offence to victors
0:39:37 > 0:39:45-- victims of Kingsmills and there was not a tough enough reaction. But
0:39:45 > 0:39:51now, we have had one civilised exchange. That comes on the heels of
0:39:51 > 0:39:5712 months of hard, bitter polarising language which, one swallow does not
0:39:57 > 0:40:01a summer make. It is indicative of the fact that throughout the past
0:40:01 > 0:40:06year we have heard provoke Alli positive words but none of it has
0:40:06 > 0:40:11been backed up with action. We welcome the civilised exchange but
0:40:11 > 0:40:17we want to see that carry forward and demonstrated by both factions of
0:40:17 > 0:40:24the DUP and Sinn Fein.Nobody would want to overplay the significance.
0:40:24 > 0:40:31It was two politicians maintain their differences on a number of key
0:40:31 > 0:40:33points. But does it hint at something going on behind the
0:40:33 > 0:40:40scenes?I suppose the question is whether this is reflective of the
0:40:40 > 0:40:46entire party and the leadership. Or was it an exchange between John and
0:40:46 > 0:40:54Edward on a personal basis? They have served together. Does this play
0:40:54 > 0:40:59out in the rest of the media stances between the two parties? We need
0:40:59 > 0:41:03notification if there is going to be more talks. Are they genuine about
0:41:03 > 0:41:10that exchange?You don't think for a minute that John O'Dowd went on a
0:41:10 > 0:41:16solo run on as comments on the Kingsmills massacre?No.That must
0:41:16 > 0:41:21be discussed within Sinn Fein circles.The reaction to Edwin, I
0:41:21 > 0:41:25don't know if they knew, there was speculation that it was
0:41:25 > 0:41:29choreographed between the parties. I am not sure if Edwin was aware just
0:41:29 > 0:41:35how far John would actually go because he did demonstrate quite a
0:41:35 > 0:41:39sea change from where Sinn Fein have been in the past. That is great, but
0:41:39 > 0:41:45I want to see its reflected on a wider and deeper scale.They did not
0:41:45 > 0:41:51suggest to me in anyway that they were to do what they did live on the
0:41:51 > 0:41:55programme. I got no sense of that before the programme started. How
0:41:55 > 0:42:04significant you think that tonal change might be?The rhetoric was in
0:42:04 > 0:42:10danger of getting out of control. Deliberately?Deliberately. We have
0:42:10 > 0:42:15seen some provocative actions over the last few days and months. I hope
0:42:15 > 0:42:21they realise that cannot continue. In itself, that does not indicate a
0:42:21 > 0:42:25change of direction. The gaps on the issues holding back row Gres are
0:42:25 > 0:42:29narrow but there are massive gaps in terms of trust and respect between
0:42:29 > 0:42:36particularly those two main parties. And also, Northern Ireland has been
0:42:36 > 0:42:39pulled apart because of the polarisation and the effects of
0:42:39 > 0:42:47Brexit. I am not clear that either party has a clear sense of purpose
0:42:47 > 0:42:53around and independent Northern Ireland. Both parties seem to be
0:42:53 > 0:42:57playing it both ways. The DUP particularly. They are talking about
0:42:57 > 0:43:02the onset of direct rule, which will be a disaster for more than Ireland.
0:43:02 > 0:43:06And Sinn Fein are looking to potential opportunities in. Both
0:43:06 > 0:43:11parties need to send a signal that they are serious about it working.
0:43:11 > 0:43:17Does it also bring low just -- bring home just how low our politics have
0:43:17 > 0:43:22fallen that one civilised exchange of knowledge in heart that was
0:43:22 > 0:43:29caused me is headline news? That was the big message from me on Thursday
0:43:29 > 0:43:33night.A lot of people have made that point, why is that such a big
0:43:33 > 0:43:38deal? But that is the politics of Northern Ireland.That is my point,
0:43:38 > 0:43:41let's see if it is replicated on Monday and let's see the difference
0:43:41 > 0:43:50reflected by the DUP MPs. Even with what Arlene Foster was saying in
0:43:50 > 0:43:54Killarney about Brexit, because there are different messages coming
0:43:54 > 0:44:03from that party. Sinn Fein in reaction in Northern Ireland and the
0:44:03 > 0:44:09reaction in the Republic of Ireland, there was a difference. There is a
0:44:09 > 0:44:15differentiation in both parties. Many people believe that the
0:44:15 > 0:44:19differences between the two main parties are not as great as some
0:44:19 > 0:44:25people imagine them to be but on Thursday night, John O'Dowd said
0:44:25 > 0:44:30that our equality agenda remains immovable. That is not something we
0:44:30 > 0:44:34are prepared to compromise on. And Edwin Poots said at the end of the
0:44:34 > 0:44:37interview, if there is going to be some kind of deal, it will involve
0:44:37 > 0:44:44pain on all sides and we have Mason -- and we may have some difficulty
0:44:44 > 0:44:49in selling this. What does that say about their preparedness to make a
0:44:49 > 0:44:54compromise which will be inevitable if a delisting the done?We heard
0:44:54 > 0:44:58John O'Dowd say we will compromise on a compromise. But we heard the
0:44:58 > 0:45:02leader of Sinn Fein saying that we have stretched ourselves for the
0:45:02 > 0:45:09common good. We have seen the last year Sinn Fein deriding the SDLP. We
0:45:09 > 0:45:13know that whatever happens, because of a divided society, that
0:45:13 > 0:45:17accommodation of differences in compromise will have to be the
0:45:17 > 0:45:22answer. You have to come back to that reality. We are getting
0:45:22 > 0:45:27contradictory messages from both Sinn Fein and the DUP. That was just
0:45:27 > 0:45:31one example. And the difficulty is that there has been a lack of
0:45:31 > 0:45:34openness around the detailed positions. Around the Bill of
0:45:34 > 0:45:39Rights, I only hear slogans and sound bites. I want to hear what is
0:45:39 > 0:45:44in the proposed bill of Rights. Does it cover economic and social rights?
0:45:44 > 0:45:48We don't know. We have heard that they have both compromise, but let
0:45:48 > 0:45:55the public see who have stretched themselves. Let the public see who
0:45:55 > 0:45:59has been intransigent. For some reason, both parties continue to
0:45:59 > 0:46:05refuse that. You have to ask why. We have come to the point when
0:46:05 > 0:46:09rhetoric, we have heard it and we won't know what you have been doing
0:46:09 > 0:46:15in past year.The representatives of those two parties won what -- would
0:46:15 > 0:46:20not want you all the members of the public to see those details if there
0:46:20 > 0:46:24is a possibility of further final compromises needing to be made. You
0:46:24 > 0:46:36wouldn't want to be giving away your almost final hand.But we don't have
0:46:36 > 0:46:42time. We have tried this 2-party browsers in the last few months.But
0:46:42 > 0:46:51the major difficulty is between the F -- the DUP and Sinn Fein.An
0:46:51 > 0:46:54independent mediator would provide a different set of eyes and a
0:46:54 > 0:46:58different dynamic to that process. And they could push and pull both
0:46:58 > 0:47:02parties towards that kind of compromise that they are incapable
0:47:02 > 0:47:13of by themselves. And a party -- a multiparty format would help. We
0:47:13 > 0:47:17would bring a different set of eyes to the table that would enable us to
0:47:17 > 0:47:29find those compromises that those parties by themselves cannot.
0:47:29 > 0:47:31You've spoken to the Sexretary of State.
0:47:31 > 0:47:35What did she say?
0:47:35 > 0:47:49Is there any hint when. ?We met when she was 36 hours into the job.
0:47:49 > 0:47:56-- secretary of state. She's picking up a process for the past year. We
0:47:56 > 0:48:01are unaware of how much the NISO are aware of what has happened between
0:48:01 > 0:48:09the DUP and Sinn Fein. It is a big job of work. She doesn't have a long
0:48:09 > 0:48:13time to do it because the credibility of politics and
0:48:13 > 0:48:16politicians in Northern Ireland is at an all-time low and we need a
0:48:16 > 0:48:20process that starts to build some sort of re-engagement on the ground
0:48:20 > 0:48:26between politicians and the public. We need to deliver on the key
0:48:26 > 0:48:32issues. Our health services collapsing and as politicians, we
0:48:32 > 0:48:39need to be on the coal face and tackle solutions.That is not unique
0:48:39 > 0:48:41to Northern Ireland, there are similar problems across the water in
0:48:41 > 0:48:47GB and also in the Republic.And we needed ministers who can rearrange
0:48:47 > 0:48:51budgets and moved goalposts and deliver. At this moment, we have
0:48:51 > 0:48:57nothing.Do you think that Karen Bradley Komla is a different style
0:48:57 > 0:49:01from James Brokenshire, will bring fresh impetus to the process? Do you
0:49:01 > 0:49:06think she might break the logjam? It's difficult to know at this
0:49:06 > 0:49:11stage. When we met with her, we were clear that you need to have
0:49:11 > 0:49:14inclusive talks, independents in terms of the chair and let's see
0:49:14 > 0:49:18what progress is made so that we can all try to build on that.De
0:49:18 > 0:49:24Giovanni you as a person?She was very much in listening mode in the
0:49:24 > 0:49:28short meeting and she came across very personable. But our messages
0:49:28 > 0:49:32were consistent and ferment immensely this comes down to the
0:49:32 > 0:49:36parties of Northern Ireland working with the two governments. We're
0:49:36 > 0:49:41going to act and put a local gun in place? That is the challenge for all
0:49:41 > 0:49:47of us.
0:49:48 > 0:49:50Owen Smith, the Shadow Secretary of State, said the anniversary
0:49:50 > 0:49:57of the Good Friday Agreement in April should be the deadline.
0:49:57 > 0:50:03For this process. Does this make sense?Identity we can afford to
0:50:03 > 0:50:07wait that long. Obviously it is the 20th anniversary this year and some
0:50:07 > 0:50:12people are writing it off. But we have to accept that we have seen
0:50:12 > 0:50:16spectacular progress over the last 20 years and we have to bank all of
0:50:16 > 0:50:19that in terms of the change of relationships across these islands.
0:50:19 > 0:50:26We have to reform these this agreement -- the agreement and we
0:50:26 > 0:50:35can't stand still. But from the point of finance, January, early
0:50:35 > 0:50:38February is the effective deadline in terms of having a budget in
0:50:38 > 0:50:45place. We need a shareable resources efficiently in Northern Ireland and
0:50:45 > 0:50:48if not, we will be squandering money. We cannot afford to do that.
0:50:48 > 0:50:56So many things require reform and our economy is stagnating.
0:50:56 > 0:50:57Thank you all.
0:50:57 > 0:51:00Let's hear what my guests of the day make of that.
0:51:00 > 0:51:07I'm joined by Chris Donnelly and Felicity Huston.
0:51:07 > 0:51:11Felicity, are you more positive now than you might have been early
0:51:11 > 0:51:17evening on Thursday?I agree with Nichola Mallon, one swallow does not
0:51:17 > 0:51:21a summer make. When Martin McGuinness mated comments about
0:51:21 > 0:51:26traitors to island killing PSNI officers, when Arlene went to Martin
0:51:26 > 0:51:30McGuinness's funeral and shook hands, all this is great, things
0:51:30 > 0:51:36might be starting to change. But I've seem to many of these moments
0:51:36 > 0:51:44all over the years. The other thing is, with the McElduff debacle, if
0:51:44 > 0:51:48you scrape back the layers in Northern Ireland, you don't have to
0:51:48 > 0:51:52go deep to find out how bitter and nasty and divided we still are.
0:51:52 > 0:51:56Chris, a bad week last week, everybody agreed, but was it a bit
0:51:56 > 0:52:02of redemption towards the end?I think so, and it became quite
0:52:02 > 0:52:08positive. The significance of last week, for the first time in over a
0:52:08 > 0:52:15year, Sinn Fein were under pressure and on the defensive. That was the
0:52:15 > 0:52:21first time under Michelle O'Neill that that has happened. Alan
0:52:21 > 0:52:28McBride, the victim campaigner who lost his wife, he said it was either
0:52:28 > 0:52:32beyond wicked or just stupid. And the response Sinn Fein initially was
0:52:32 > 0:52:38very forthright and people believed on the back of that that Barry
0:52:38 > 0:52:42McElduff would be expelled. Then we had Michelle O'Neill speaking later
0:52:42 > 0:52:46on and announcing that he would be suspended for a period of months.
0:52:46 > 0:52:52That was more consistent with the position that Sinn Fein had taken,
0:52:52 > 0:52:58that it was more of a coincidence rather than an insult. Then the
0:52:58 > 0:53:00revelation came out that he was still be allowed to use the party
0:53:00 > 0:53:04offices. It put out a mixed message that was heaping pressure on the
0:53:04 > 0:53:10party. It took John O'Dowd's intervention, which I were describe
0:53:10 > 0:53:16as decisive, to draw a line under the incident. The significance of
0:53:16 > 0:53:21this is that it took John O'Dowd and Michelle O'Neill remains untested as
0:53:21 > 0:53:25leader. This will be something that she will take out of this, that
0:53:25 > 0:53:29there will have to be more decisive and effectively to ship from her
0:53:29 > 0:53:32going forward.Do you think that Barry McElduff should have had a
0:53:32 > 0:53:37tougher punishment imposed by the Sinn Fein leadership?Yes, I do. I
0:53:37 > 0:53:42don't know what he thought he was act. When I saw it, I thought it was
0:53:42 > 0:53:49bizarre and tactless.Do you think beyond wicked or just you would?I
0:53:49 > 0:53:52would say wicked. Because it does not seem to be the only incident
0:53:52 > 0:54:00about victims of Kingsmills massacre being tortured with bread and toast.
0:54:00 > 0:54:06I think you should have been sacked from the party. That is easy for me
0:54:06 > 0:54:10to say. Sinn Fein is a disciplined party, heavily regulated. But if
0:54:10 > 0:54:15they had at least put him out for six months and taken his salary off
0:54:15 > 0:54:18him, people might have thought there was some sort of genuine recognition
0:54:18 > 0:54:24of what he had done, whether full or navel. But three months on full
0:54:24 > 0:54:28pay,?
0:54:28 > 0:54:29Thanks both.
0:54:29 > 0:54:31Meantime, the DUP leader, Arlene Foster, told a conference
0:54:31 > 0:54:33in Killarney this weekend that Brexit isn't about "pulling up
0:54:33 > 0:54:37the drawbridge", as she put it.
0:54:37 > 0:54:39In her speech, she likened Northern Ireland and the Republic
0:54:39 > 0:54:42to a pair of semi-detached houses, similar on the outside
0:54:42 > 0:54:43but with different interiors.
0:54:43 > 0:54:45As Shane Harrison now reports from Kerry, the DUP leader's
0:54:45 > 0:54:53presence comes after a period of strained relations.
0:54:53 > 0:54:57Killarney on a wet weekend. Where better to ponder the choppy waters
0:54:57 > 0:55:04of Brexit and contemplate what, beyond the mist of uncertainty,
0:55:04 > 0:55:07maybe the future relationships on the island and between the UK and be
0:55:07 > 0:55:14you. Arlene Foster came to this hotel in a conciliatory mood after
0:55:14 > 0:55:19last month's frostiness over the UK and EU divorce talks that eventually
0:55:19 > 0:55:24resulted in a kind of deal on continuing regulatory alignment
0:55:24 > 0:55:28between North and South and no border at the Irish Sea. Not a time
0:55:28 > 0:55:34for pulling up the Irish drawbridge, she told the Brexit conference.I
0:55:34 > 0:55:39know we are rivals in some respects, but in so many ways, successful one
0:55:39 > 0:55:45of us is successful the other. And as we chart a new future, it is not
0:55:45 > 0:55:49in our interest to see the Republic of Ireland do anything other than
0:55:49 > 0:55:55prosper.At the conference, the leader of Fianna Fail, the
0:55:55 > 0:56:00Republic's main opposition party, called for the restoration of the
0:56:00 > 0:56:04Northern Ireland political institutions.The dangers of Brexit
0:56:04 > 0:56:07and the challenges make it inexcusable that we do not have an
0:56:07 > 0:56:11Executive in Northern Ireland. They should make a commitment to the
0:56:11 > 0:56:16restoration of the Executive. Because of Brexit, Fianna Fail
0:56:16 > 0:56:19believes that Northern Ireland should be designated a special
0:56:19 > 0:56:27economic zone. The DUP isn't automatically rule it out.I don't
0:56:27 > 0:56:29think it's right to take anything out of touch until one has seen the
0:56:29 > 0:56:34details and I will have a look at them because it would be wrong, as
0:56:34 > 0:56:36happened sometimes in Northern Ireland, that you just getting knee
0:56:36 > 0:56:43jerk reaction.In her rush to return north, Arlene Foster did not get a
0:56:43 > 0:56:50chance to enjoy a ride on this famous carriage. But she was paid a
0:56:50 > 0:56:56kind of compliment.I think Arlene showed political courage in making
0:56:56 > 0:57:01it clear that she needed the relationships. But I disagree with
0:57:01 > 0:57:05her analysis of Brexit and so do the people of Northern Ireland, because
0:57:05 > 0:57:11they wanted to stay. That is not -- her views on those of the majority
0:57:11 > 0:57:16of people in Northern Ireland.So what direction will Brexit take? The
0:57:16 > 0:57:21regular three alignment and piracy agreement were part of the scenario,
0:57:21 > 0:57:26if there is no ultimate Brexit deal. A former senior press officer at
0:57:26 > 0:57:30Downing Street says, all is still to play for.The language around
0:57:30 > 0:57:36regulatory alignment and batted the backstop option, has to be defined
0:57:36 > 0:57:39in legal terms specifically. So the next few months will be fascinating
0:57:39 > 0:57:48and difficult.This week's conference on the shores of the lake
0:57:48 > 0:57:56heard that agreement is possible but unlikely. It should become clearer
0:57:56 > 0:57:58in the possible months.
0:57:58 > 0:57:59Shane Harrison reporting.
0:57:59 > 0:58:02We'll have a final thought from my studio guests in a moment,
0:58:02 > 0:58:05but first, let's take a look back at the political week in 60 seconds
0:58:05 > 0:58:09- with Gareth Gordon.
0:58:09 > 0:58:16One image set the tone for the week. It's not just a matter of Barry
0:58:16 > 0:58:21McElduff's apology, it's a matter of the leadership.Barry McElduff
0:58:21 > 0:58:30apologise for his actions.A political cartoon kept the story in
0:58:30 > 0:58:35the headlines. But as the week moved on, a more considered view tone
0:58:35 > 0:58:40moved on.It is shameful what happened on the roadside and as a
0:58:40 > 0:58:46Republican, I'm shamed by it.I welcome what was said and I would
0:58:46 > 0:58:53say that what happened to John's family was wrong as well.The
0:58:53 > 0:58:56Secretary of State resigned because of illness.I need time and space to
0:58:56 > 0:59:04focus on surgery and recovery.And an unclear time ahead.I know there
0:59:04 > 0:59:08are challenges but I'm determined we will find a way through those
0:59:08 > 0:59:12challenges. We need to deliver devolved government.
0:59:15 > 0:59:20Gareth Gordon - and let's speak to Felicity and Chris again.
0:59:20 > 0:59:23Arlene Foster's comments in Killarney - not ruling out NI
0:59:23 > 0:59:30being designated a Special Economic Zone.
0:59:30 > 0:59:33Many people saying it was a generally constructive contribution
0:59:33 > 0:59:39after a period of strained relations.The sentiment was not
0:59:39 > 0:59:44necessarily new but the tone was. 2017 was a polarising year not just
0:59:44 > 0:59:48locally but between the British and I is governments with the first
0:59:48 > 0:59:53round of Brexit negotiations. There is recognition on all sides that if
0:59:53 > 0:59:57we are going to get demolition up and running, some of the poison
0:59:57 > 1:00:01needs to be drawn out of our system and there was a recognition also by
1:00:01 > 1:00:06both Arlene Foster and Michelle O'Neill that the choreography has to
1:00:06 > 1:00:13be right. Applicants may reference to that. The grassroots need to be
1:00:13 > 1:00:19heard. -- Edwin boots made reference.Let's pick up on that
1:00:19 > 1:00:27point. Do you think the new Secretary of State, Karen Bradley,
1:00:27 > 1:00:30can get traction and get the process back on track if that is what is
1:00:30 > 1:00:36wanted?I'm not optimistic and I didn't see much dynamism when she
1:00:36 > 1:00:41was Secretary of State for culture media and the arts, and she kept
1:00:41 > 1:00:43pushing the Murdoch problem into touch and leaving it to somebody
1:00:43 > 1:00:51else. We want to ask whether there are any new ideas in the NIO. It
1:00:51 > 1:00:55will come from them. They have the same special adviser that they have
1:00:55 > 1:01:00had since Peter Brooks's day. We need new people from that side, as
1:01:00 > 1:01:09well.Chris?One of the criticisms of James Brokenshire was that he
1:01:09 > 1:01:12could never get a credible negotiation process going. Karen
1:01:12 > 1:01:16Bradley needs to learn from that. But the structures at the top of the
1:01:16 > 1:01:20party need to know what they are going into so that the pieces are
1:01:20 > 1:01:21addressed. That is more portable
1:01:21 > 1:01:22that doesn't mean we shouldn't return to it.
1:01:22 > 1:01:23addressed. That is more portable return to it.I have to stop
1:01:23 > 1:01:24return to it.I have to stop you all.
1:01:24 > 1:01:24That's all we have time for.
1:01:24 > 1:01:27My thanks to Rupa to Bob and to Luke and with that,
1:01:27 > 1:01:35it's back to Sarah.
1:01:40 > 1:01:45Earlier we were talking about comments made by John McDonnell
1:01:45 > 1:01:50about Esther McVeigh. The Labour Party had been in touch to say that
1:01:50 > 1:01:58Mr McDonnell did not quote with approval, and that comments made in
1:01:58 > 1:02:06Parliament confirm that. We have been contacted also by the office of
1:02:06 > 1:02:08Kier Starmer, previously the Director of Public Prosecutions,
1:02:08 > 1:02:11saying he had nothing to do with the decision about John Worboys, and we
1:02:11 > 1:02:17are also happy to make that crystal clear. On to other news...
1:02:17 > 1:02:19Ukip has suspended the girlfriend of the party leader, Henry Bolton,
1:02:19 > 1:02:22after reports that she made racist remarks about Prince Harry's
1:02:22 > 1:02:23fiancee Meghan Markle.
1:02:23 > 1:02:25In text messages to a friend, Jo Marney described black people
1:02:25 > 1:02:28as "ugly" and said "her seed" would "taint our royal family".
1:02:28 > 1:02:30Ms Marney has apologised, and said that comments had been
1:02:30 > 1:02:31taken out of context.
1:02:31 > 1:02:39Paul Oakden, Ukip's party chairman, joins us from Birmingham.
1:02:43 > 1:02:47Can Henry Bolton carry on as leader after this?I think it is very clear
1:02:47 > 1:02:52that Henry is increasingly in a position where he has some difficult
1:02:52 > 1:02:56decisions to make. He knows that. He and I have spoken regularly over the
1:02:56 > 1:03:01weekend, as recently as this morning. I know he is focused on
1:03:01 > 1:03:04those decisions today. He intends on making those decisions today, and
1:03:04 > 1:03:07I'm sure that whatever he does will be in the best interests of the
1:03:07 > 1:03:13party.It sounds like you expect him to resign by the end of the day.Not
1:03:13 > 1:03:18at all. He is in a situation that he would rather not be in, which he
1:03:18 > 1:03:21acknowledges, but I believe he has the party's best interests at heart
1:03:21 > 1:03:30and that is what he will focus on. Would the party's best interests be
1:03:30 > 1:03:33served by him standing down as leader?It would be best served by
1:03:33 > 1:03:38the membership having the opportunity to have their say. Henry
1:03:38 > 1:03:41acknowledges there has been an error in judgment, and it is now for the
1:03:41 > 1:03:45party membership and ruling body to make a determination on whether they
1:03:45 > 1:03:48feel Henry is the best person to lead them into what will be an
1:03:48 > 1:03:51incredibly crucial 12 months for Brexit. The thing that matters
1:03:51 > 1:03:56beyond Ukip and everything else.If he doesn't decide by the end of the
1:03:56 > 1:04:05day that he will stand down, when will the NEC meet?A week today. I
1:04:05 > 1:04:10want to be clear - Henry is not deciding whether he will or won't
1:04:10 > 1:04:14resign today. He's deciding what he can do to help remedy this
1:04:14 > 1:04:19situation. As leader, he will play the leading role in making this
1:04:19 > 1:04:22better, clearly needs made better, and a lot of people take their lead
1:04:22 > 1:04:28from him. The party is represented by its governing body, which will
1:04:28 > 1:04:31meet a week today. If he is still the leader Robbie today, they will
1:04:31 > 1:04:35meet at that point and collectively make a decision about what to do
1:04:35 > 1:04:41going forward.It doesn't sound like he has your support.Far from it. My
1:04:41 > 1:04:49job is to make sure that our thousands of members, who joined not
1:04:49 > 1:04:55because of the leader's Private life but because of Brexit, and we will
1:04:55 > 1:05:03not deliver Brexit on our own. Now that Tony Blair is running around
1:05:03 > 1:05:07with Lord Adonis and Nick Clegg trying to ride roughshod over
1:05:07 > 1:05:12democracy, we need a grand coalition of all those groups that fought on
1:05:12 > 1:05:18the League side to come together to see the journey home. That is the
1:05:18 > 1:05:22priority.It is a huge distraction if you're leader is having to fend
1:05:22 > 1:05:28off the stories about his private life.It is true that we need to be
1:05:28 > 1:05:32behind our leader 100% in taking that battle forward. That is
1:05:32 > 1:05:35absolutely key. Whether or not the party decides it is willing to give
1:05:35 > 1:05:40that support to Henry is for the party decide. My role as German as
1:05:40 > 1:05:46to make sure they have the ability to voice their opinion. I have every
1:05:46 > 1:05:51confidence that our national
1:05:58 > 1:06:01executive committee will do what is in the interests of the party, and I
1:06:01 > 1:06:03have every confidence that that is what our leader will seek to do.
1:06:03 > 1:06:05Whatever the situation, I am confident that a week tomorrow, the
1:06:05 > 1:06:08party will be in fine form to take that to the Remain establishment.
1:06:08 > 1:06:09Thanks for joining us.
1:06:09 > 1:06:12Let's pick up on that with the panel. What do you think the
1:06:12 > 1:06:18prospects are for the Ukip leader? Based on that, it has Monty Python
1:06:18 > 1:06:24moment. He will do what is best for the party, but that best... This is
1:06:24 > 1:06:28symptomatic of a wider crisis for Ukip. I've lost count of the number
1:06:28 > 1:06:36of leaders they've had.Five in 18 months.Three of them were Nigel
1:06:36 > 1:06:40Farage!He will probably be back again. They were a powerful vessel
1:06:40 > 1:06:44for delivering that referendum, but it is a lesson for people wanting to
1:06:44 > 1:06:49start political parties - it was a fragile vessel. The fragility is are
1:06:49 > 1:06:55now being exposed in this impossible nightmare they have. They can't even
1:06:55 > 1:06:59find a credible leader. They have not resigned over principles, they
1:06:59 > 1:07:08have resigned in bizarre circumstances, time and again.One
1:07:08 > 1:07:11of them only lasted days.And that is not bad going on the basis of
1:07:11 > 1:07:16what could happen in the future. It shows that it is difficult to set up
1:07:16 > 1:07:21a credible, serious political party. And they have become incredible.On
1:07:21 > 1:07:24a more serious note, Paul Oakton was saying that it is more important
1:07:24 > 1:07:28than ever to have people are giving the Ukip case as we go through the
1:07:28 > 1:07:33process of Brexit. As a party, can they do that? Or do people think
1:07:33 > 1:07:38that
1:07:39 > 1:07:41that with the referendum done and dusted, Ukip are finished?We have
1:07:41 > 1:07:45seen that in their election results since. He was a credible leader, a
1:07:45 > 1:07:51background in the police, working in the EU, the Armed Forces. I don't
1:07:51 > 1:07:55want to live in Soviet Russia or modern-day North Korea where people
1:07:55 > 1:08:00have guilt by association. He hasn't made these racist remarks.She has
1:08:00 > 1:08:09been suspended from the partly, -- the party, she is his partner.They
1:08:09 > 1:08:14are not taken out of context, they are outrageous, no question at all,
1:08:14 > 1:08:18racist, disgusting remarks, and no question that she should be out of
1:08:18 > 1:08:22the party membership. I would say that his misjudgement in being a
1:08:22 > 1:08:25middle-aged man running off with a glamour model half his age is the
1:08:25 > 1:08:32embarrassment for him. If he wants to be in a relationship with someone
1:08:32 > 1:08:36with those vile views, it is a question of his judgment. But let's
1:08:36 > 1:08:45not confuse the person who committed the offence. The key thing is, Ukip
1:08:45 > 1:08:52had a role, and Nigel Farage in my view is one of the most influential
1:08:52 > 1:08:55politicians of the 21st century in terms of how he has changed
1:08:55 > 1:08:58politics. Part of that effectively meant that Ukip had no role. They
1:08:58 > 1:09:03believe they have an important role, because they don't believe Theresa
1:09:03 > 1:09:06May is delivering the Brexit that many people like me actually voted
1:09:06 > 1:09:13for. I would like to keep them on the back burner as a credible party
1:09:13 > 1:09:17if and when they are needed to like the touch paper beneath the stories.
1:09:17 > 1:09:23To hold Theresa May's fee to the fire. Nigel Farage sprang back into
1:09:23 > 1:09:26the news today, possibly because he was looking for increased relevance
1:09:26 > 1:09:30to get himself back in the headlines, saying that he now agrees
1:09:30 > 1:09:34with Nick Clegg and Tony Blair that there might have to be a second
1:09:34 > 1:09:40referendum. Explain that, Tom.He said it on Friday morning, sorry,
1:09:40 > 1:09:44Thursday morning, and now he has said it again. He has recanted a
1:09:44 > 1:09:50bit, saying that it is not that he wants one, but it is back on the
1:09:50 > 1:09:54front page of the Observer, repeating the message. I think there
1:09:54 > 1:09:58are now will be one. Do you think he could possibly be sniffing out a job
1:09:58 > 1:10:03vacancy coming up any time soon? My reading of your incisive interview
1:10:03 > 1:10:09with Paul Oakton was that we
1:10:17 > 1:10:22should -- was that he will be handed a revolver, possibly this afternoon.
1:10:22 > 1:10:30If Nigel Farage came back, it could be his third or fourth term?He
1:10:30 > 1:10:37could easily come back. He goes on TV programmes and gives interviews,
1:10:37 > 1:10:41and you can see our role for him. The vacancy is about to come up. It
1:10:41 > 1:10:49rather begins to feel like a fait accompli.The EU withdrawal bill is
1:10:49 > 1:10:52back in the Commons this week - trouble for the Government over what
1:10:52 > 1:10:58will happen this week?At certain moments, there will be, as there was
1:10:58 > 1:11:02in December, moments of potential drama, inevitably, because they
1:11:02 > 1:11:08haven't always got a guaranteed majority. I suspect that defeats
1:11:08 > 1:11:12like we saw with the Dominic grieve amendment won't happen very often,
1:11:12 > 1:11:17but there will be, as with the rest of this Brexit sequence, moments of
1:11:17 > 1:11:20heightened drama where it is not at all clear what is going to happen
1:11:20 > 1:11:24and whether she can get what she wants through, Theresa May. I think
1:11:24 > 1:11:28the referendum thing is interesting. There's no reason why the 2016 one
1:11:28 > 1:11:33should be seen as a theological thing that cannot be touched,
1:11:33 > 1:11:37because the 2016 one showed that you can have second referendums. It was
1:11:37 > 1:11:45a second one.Let's have another one in 40- odd years.Very briefly,
1:11:45 > 1:11:49Julia, are you disappointed that Donald Trump is not coming to London
1:11:49 > 1:11:53to open the embassy?I hold no torch for Donald Trump. He wants us to be
1:11:53 > 1:12:00lining the roots and way being -- waving our little flags. He wants to
1:12:00 > 1:12:06meet the corgis. I think we should be friendly with the leaders of
1:12:06 > 1:12:12major global powers who are our allies in trade and militarily. It
1:12:12 > 1:12:16would be foolish to upset that because we don't like the current
1:12:16 > 1:12:19incumbent. What might we might be looking for a trade deal with them
1:12:19 > 1:12:25as well. Theresa May might be relieved. Oh God, yes!Someone
1:12:25 > 1:12:28senior in the Government said to me on Friday, using similar words to
1:12:28 > 1:12:34Donald Trump, it would be an capital at show if he came, and the same if
1:12:34 > 1:12:49he didn't. -- it would be an S show. No one made remarks about President
1:12:49 > 1:12:54Macron or Angela Merkel. If we accept the Chinese president, a
1:12:54 > 1:12:57totalitarian who has his political opponents murdered, I think we can
1:12:57 > 1:13:00cope with Donald Trump, as hideous and horrible and racist and
1:13:00 > 1:13:09misogynistic as he is.Strange that he has
1:13:10 > 1:13:13he has in -- that he hasn't come given the respect shall
1:13:13 > 1:13:18relationship.For our defence and security relationships, we need
1:13:18 > 1:13:20this.We have to leave it there.
1:13:20 > 1:13:21That's all for today.
1:13:21 > 1:13:25Join me again next Sunday at 11 here on BBC One XXXXX.
1:13:25 > 1:13:26Until then, bye bye.
1:13:32 > 1:13:40-- join me again next Sunday at 11 here on BBC One.