:01:35. > :01:39.nights of rioting in northern Belfast, the Orange Order are
:01:39. > :01:49.branded Reckless, the Secretary of State answers questions on the way
:01:49. > :01:49.
:01:49. > :38:47.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2217 seconds
:38:47. > :38:51.Northern Ireland. Two nights of rioting and North Belfast, hundreds
:38:51. > :38:54.of police drafted in from Britain, the Orange Order branded reckless by
:38:54. > :38:59.the Chief Constable and the Parades Commission condemned again by the
:38:59. > :39:04.Unionists. Welcome to summertime in Belfast. We will give from Theresa
:39:04. > :39:08.Villiers, the Secretary of State, in a moment. The Progressive Unionists
:39:08. > :39:17.also give us the analysis of events. We are joined by two of our
:39:17. > :39:22.leading political journalist, Liam Clarke and Sam McBride.
:39:22. > :39:26.A clean-up is underway yet again after a second night of rioting and
:39:26. > :39:30.North Belfast. Trouble started on Friday evening after police enforced
:39:30. > :39:35.a ruling banning a return parade for the area around Ardoyne shops.
:39:35. > :39:38.Police said 32 of their officers were injured in the violence and DUP
:39:38. > :39:44.MP Nigel Dodds was taken to hospital unconscious after being hit by a
:39:44. > :39:47.missile thrown by Wallace. Officers used baton rounds and what can to
:39:47. > :39:52.contain the violence. Last night trouble flared again with petrol
:39:52. > :39:58.bombs thrown at police lines at it was less severe than Vegas nights.
:39:58. > :40:03.The Secretary of State Theresa Villiers joins me now. Who is
:40:03. > :40:07.responsible for this violence? people who are responsible are those
:40:07. > :40:12.throwing petrol bombs. Everyone must reflect on how we can all encourage
:40:12. > :40:19.cam in this situation. It is shameful the violence that we have
:40:19. > :40:22.seen on the streets of Belfast. It undermines much of the progress that
:40:23. > :40:27.we were able to demonstrate at the G8 with a modern and forward-looking
:40:27. > :40:31.Northern Ireland in which a huge amount had been achieved. This
:40:31. > :40:35.undermines Northern Ireland's ability to compete in the world for
:40:35. > :40:39.jobs and investment and it is essential that stops. The Chief
:40:39. > :40:42.Constable was clear in his comments that the Orange Order brought people
:40:42. > :40:46.out on the disputes to protest without a plan or any way of
:40:46. > :40:53.controlling them and he says that was reckless, do you agree? I think
:40:53. > :40:58.he is correct. It is important for the Orange Order to reflect on their
:40:58. > :41:02.role. I know they are angry and I understand their anger about the
:41:02. > :41:07.Parades Commission determination, but bringing many people out onto
:41:07. > :41:12.the streets to protest when the situation was as tense as it was,
:41:12. > :41:16.without the kind of plan that the Chief Constable has talked about, I
:41:16. > :41:21.think that was part of the problem, it is part of the cause of the
:41:21. > :41:25.disturbances we have seen. Mark Baggott says the Orange Order must
:41:25. > :41:30.reflect on the leadership it gave, do you agree with that? Yes, I do
:41:30. > :41:34.think they must reflect on that. It is important for all of us in
:41:34. > :41:38.Northern Ireland's political leadership, the Orange Order, for us
:41:38. > :41:41.to call for these issues to be resolved peacefully. The Orange
:41:41. > :41:44.Order did the right thing is starting to engage with residents,
:41:44. > :41:50.something they had not previously done. They were correctly praised
:41:50. > :41:54.for that. I hope that when things have calmed down that that local
:41:54. > :42:03.dialogue can continue, it is the best way to find a long-term
:42:03. > :42:08.solution. No one is defending the British culture, no one is defending
:42:08. > :42:13.Unionism by throwing bricks at police officers, this is undermining
:42:13. > :42:16.the very cause that the Orange Order seeks to support if we see this
:42:16. > :42:20.violence continue. It is pretty obvious that there is a section of
:42:20. > :42:25.our community who feel disenfranchised, marginalised and
:42:25. > :42:30.that no one is listening to their concerns and their anger is directed
:42:30. > :42:37.at the Parades Commission and specifically it -- its ruling
:42:37. > :42:40.regarding Friday 's parade. Did the Parades Commission get it correct?
:42:40. > :42:44.They are an Independent body for a good reason. When these decisions
:42:44. > :42:48.were taken by the police and the Secretary of State, the situation
:42:48. > :42:52.tended to be even more difficult. There has been progress and there
:42:52. > :42:58.are many thousands of rates that take place in a peaceful way in
:42:58. > :43:03.Northern Ireland. The way forward is for calm on the streets over the
:43:03. > :43:05.next few days and a local dialogue for progress on the working group
:43:05. > :43:10.that they get the First Minister rightfully set up to look at
:43:10. > :43:14.long-term reform. I understand that you say it is not helpful to comment
:43:14. > :43:18.on individual determinations, but with respect, it is dangerous for
:43:18. > :43:22.you to equivocate, because the Secretary of State appoints the
:43:22. > :43:27.commission and you hold the Commission to account. If you do not
:43:27. > :43:30.see that the determination on Friday was right, people will read that as
:43:30. > :43:36.you not giving your full backing to the commission and suggesting the
:43:36. > :43:42.decision was wrong. Can you clear that up? I do not think they will
:43:42. > :43:52.read it in that way. The Parades Commission as independent for a good
:43:52. > :43:52.
:43:52. > :44:00.reason and that is why their decisions are copied. -- obeyed.
:44:00. > :44:05.Does the Parades Commission have your backing? It does. Violence is
:44:05. > :44:12.not inevitable. Some have said it was inevitable. It is not
:44:12. > :44:17.inevitable. Even a controversial decision, this decision did provoke
:44:17. > :44:22.concern from part of the community, but that does not justify or make
:44:22. > :44:28.violence inevitable. The are other ways to express concern about
:44:28. > :44:33.decisions like this, but there are far better ways to get a solution I
:44:33. > :44:36.talking to people, having a local dialogue and following the example
:44:36. > :44:41.set by the apprentice boys of Derry who have made real progress because
:44:42. > :44:48.they talked to the residents who were affected. To be clear, you will
:44:48. > :44:52.not say one way or another whether this issue has been resolved
:44:52. > :44:57.directly by the Parades Commission? I do not comment on their decisions
:44:57. > :45:00.directly. The Parades Commission have my full confidence and anyone
:45:00. > :45:04.who seeks to disobey their determination is risking the kind of
:45:04. > :45:09.scenes we have seen over the last few nights and risking criminal
:45:09. > :45:13.convictions. What is your understanding within the heart of
:45:13. > :45:18.the longest community at that ruling on Friday? What steps have you taken
:45:18. > :45:21.in the last 48 hours to try to have a better understanding of what it is
:45:21. > :45:27.that has so upset that community resulting in the violence we have
:45:27. > :45:29.seen? Before and after the determination I sought out many
:45:29. > :45:34.conversations with people with differing views on this
:45:34. > :45:41.determination. In fact, over the last few months I have had a
:45:41. > :45:45.succession of meetings with residents, MLAs and ministers to
:45:45. > :45:50.listen to their views and to seek a way forward. At all those
:45:50. > :45:54.discussions have arched a peaceful approach, a non-violent approach,
:45:54. > :45:59.respect for the rule of law and looking for a local dialogue to
:45:59. > :46:04.resolve these issues in the future. Have you spoken to Nigel Dodds who
:46:04. > :46:07.was injured and taken to hospital? have tried to get hold of him but I
:46:07. > :46:15.have not been able to speak to him yet since Friday night, obviously
:46:15. > :46:19.the days in the run-up to Friday I had spoken to him. Very quickly,
:46:19. > :46:24.what is the next move in the days ahead? The Assembly on Tuesday will
:46:24. > :46:29.debate this issue. I do not know if that is a good or a bad thing, but
:46:29. > :46:33.many will look to you and other senior politicians to dealers out of
:46:33. > :46:37.this difficulty. What must happen now? Strong support for the police,
:46:37. > :46:44.they did a brilliant job. They put their own personal safety at risk.
:46:44. > :46:49.They have upheld the rule of law. They have done an excellent job and
:46:49. > :46:52.we should have a unanimous reaction from Northern Ireland's little
:46:53. > :46:56.leadership supporting them but calling for the Parades Commission
:46:56. > :47:01.determination to be respected. you for joining us.
:47:01. > :47:06.Let US Open the discussion to the Belfast Telegraph's Liam Clarke and
:47:06. > :47:10.Sam McBride from the News Letter. Liam Clarke, what are you make of
:47:10. > :47:14.what the Secretary of State has had to say about what has unfolded in
:47:14. > :47:20.the past 48 hours? What the secretary of state said was what you
:47:20. > :47:24.would X X hard to say. She supports legal institutions and the rule of
:47:24. > :47:30.law, the Parades Commission which is legally appointed by the police and
:47:30. > :47:34.calling for calm. There is no sign of the wobble that some of the DUP
:47:34. > :47:40.and the Orange Order wanted where she would intervene and overturn the
:47:40. > :47:45.determination. That is not good to happen. We must take it from there.
:47:45. > :47:49.Is it enough, Sam McBride, as the Secretary of State has done to stay
:47:49. > :47:52.outside the debate about whether or not the original determination by
:47:52. > :47:57.the Parades Commission was the correct one or the wrong one?
:47:57. > :48:01.are serious questions over the two determination because it gave the
:48:01. > :48:07.idea that the violence last year from dissident republicans was
:48:07. > :48:11.rewarded in terms of the march being stopped. They went out of their way
:48:11. > :48:15.to get buses and all sorts of things last year, it was a strange
:48:15. > :48:19.determination. I do not think it is the place for the secretary of state
:48:19. > :48:24.to step in however, otherwise every single time in every part of
:48:24. > :48:28.Northern Ireland when there is a decision that one site does not like
:48:28. > :48:31.it would come down to the secretary of state. Lots of people would love
:48:31. > :48:38.to see the Parades Commission gone but even those people recognise you
:48:38. > :48:44.must have a body to do this. What is your sense of how things will unfold
:48:44. > :48:47.from a political sense, Liam, and the next 24 hours? I do not know
:48:47. > :48:51.whether Tuesday will help or hinder progress, but whether we like it or
:48:51. > :48:57.not MLAs will gather again and talk about the determination itself and
:48:57. > :49:00.the event that followed. Clearly there is a rethink within unionism.
:49:00. > :49:04.I understand both parties were asked to come onto this programme and did
:49:04. > :49:09.not. Perhaps it is a good thing to take some time out because a lot
:49:09. > :49:12.will depend what is said and the assembler on Tuesday. It could be a
:49:12. > :49:19.time to articulate and and it could be an opportunity to calm things
:49:19. > :49:22.down. The motion that the DUP put it is very interesting. They have
:49:22. > :49:28.decided that that they have described the Parades Commission
:49:28. > :49:34.decision as illogical. We will come back and hear more from both of you
:49:34. > :49:39.later in the programme. Liam, we did ask the Ulster Unionists, the DUP
:49:39. > :49:42.and the Orange Order to join us but no one from those organisations was
:49:42. > :49:46.able to be here. Thank you both for the moment.
:49:46. > :49:49.There has been criticism of the violence and the Orange Order's call
:49:49. > :49:53.for protest against the Parades Commission ruling. They have since
:49:53. > :49:58.called for protest to be suspended but not before the Chief Constable
:49:58. > :50:00.displayed their actions as reckless. Some of the leadership within the
:50:00. > :50:07.Orange Order must reflect upon whether they provided the
:50:07. > :50:12.responsible leadership asked for by myself and by the party leaders.
:50:12. > :50:18.Some of the language was emotive and having called thousands of people to
:50:19. > :50:23.protest they had no plan and no control. Rather than being
:50:23. > :50:29.responsible, I think the word for that is reckless. We were very clear
:50:29. > :50:32.from day one that our overriding concerns for public safety, crowd
:50:32. > :50:40.safety, and the interests of thousands of people on the street,
:50:40. > :50:44.and with hot weather, with alcohol flowing freely and with a volatile
:50:44. > :50:52.situation with passions raised, not to have a plan, not to have the
:50:52. > :50:59.control, compromised the safety of many people. We were attacked by
:50:59. > :51:06.fireworks, missiles, masonry, catapults. By laser pens by a whole
:51:06. > :51:09.range of weapons. That is what led to the 32 injuries. It would be
:51:09. > :51:17.wrong in any way to see those injuries and that the Rogers attack
:51:17. > :51:23.on the police line was some sort of demonstration of righteous anger, it
:51:23. > :51:28.was nothing but thuggery on a grand scale. Joining me now are the North
:51:28. > :51:32.Belfast Sinn Fein MLA Gerry Kelly and the East Belfast MP PUP
:51:32. > :51:37.councillor John Kyle. We just heard from the assistant chief constable
:51:38. > :51:45.Will Kerr. He said this was not righteous anger, it was thuggery on
:51:45. > :51:52.a grand scale. Do you agree with them? No, I do not. I think that the
:51:52. > :51:58.violence was highly regrettable. It was extreme and four, that I think
:51:58. > :52:05.there is a genuine anger. Let me set the context. Last year very
:52:05. > :52:09.stringent restrictions were placed on the parade past Ardoyne. Those
:52:09. > :52:17.restrictions were complied with. The Orange Order issued their contents
:52:17. > :52:24.of template for dealing with particularly difficult problems. The
:52:24. > :52:29.white rock Parade and other parades all went off very quietly and
:52:29. > :52:32.smoothly with a lot of work done by communities, so therefore given that
:52:32. > :52:36.context and all the work that has been done, the efforts that have
:52:37. > :52:41.been made by the loyal orders and the communities to comply with what
:52:41. > :52:46.has been asked of them, they then find this year they are told they
:52:46. > :52:51.cannot even return and so that understandably sends the message
:52:51. > :52:56.that it does not matter what you do, you will never do enough to
:52:56. > :52:58.satisfy the Parades Commission. may be the case, but we heard from
:52:58. > :53:02.the Chief Constable and the Assistant Chief Constable that 32
:53:02. > :53:07.police officers were injured, an MP knocked unconscious and taken to
:53:07. > :53:11.hospital, violence that went on for many hours on Friday and Saturday
:53:12. > :53:17.night, surely it is more than highly regrettable and unfortunate. It was
:53:17. > :53:21.thuggery. Those people did not need to do that. I'd agree with that. It
:53:21. > :53:25.was wrong and I would condemn the violence, but in condemning it you
:53:25. > :53:30.must also understand the context that gave rise to it. Gerry Kelly,
:53:30. > :53:33.what do you say in response to that? John Kyle has condemned the violence
:53:33. > :53:43.but there must be an understanding of why it happened, that is his
:53:43. > :53:46.
:53:46. > :53:50.point. Let's put # let us put this in context. Most of this parade was
:53:50. > :53:55.uncontentious, there was no issue. Orangemen talked about an Orange
:53:55. > :54:00.vest, if you want one of them have it where it is accepted and welcome.
:54:00. > :54:07.Why would you even think about trying to move through that area
:54:07. > :54:12.which is not acceptable. We are not just talking about this year, but we
:54:12. > :54:18.had sectarian abuse, anti-Catholic songs. I have seen on this same
:54:18. > :54:25.parade in the past Orange women breast with beer bosoms to attack
:54:25. > :54:33.the very core of what is Catholicism in this area. That is what we are
:54:33. > :54:39.dealing with in this issue. John Kyle's point and points other people
:54:39. > :54:42.have made from the Orange Order is that this looks like, to them, a
:54:42. > :54:47.reward for violence because last year there were those from the
:54:47. > :54:53.republican community who had a violent reaction to the fact that
:54:53. > :54:56.the parade did take place. Loyalists interpreted as a pat on the back for
:54:56. > :55:02.them and Unionists think they are being punished. You have heavy
:55:02. > :55:07.counterarguments to that which is the Parliament edges -- the
:55:07. > :55:13.paramilitaries were going in every time there was an issue around
:55:13. > :55:20.this. This has been repeated time and again, there would be Armageddon
:55:20. > :55:25.and violence. There would be a terrible situation. Let us not talk
:55:25. > :55:33.about this as if there was no threat of violence from the others. We
:55:33. > :55:37.talked about community relations. Is there no notion that these
:55:37. > :55:43.contentious parades, 3600 parades, and a handful of them which cause
:55:43. > :55:46.this level of violence and the difficulty of those periods, was
:55:46. > :55:56.there no notion that that was doing damage to community relations over a
:55:56. > :56:06.very long period of time? This parade is not through a republican
:56:06. > :56:07.
:56:07. > :56:12.area, it is past Ardoyne. That is not strictly correct. It is the only
:56:12. > :56:17.route home for the parade. Now, it is not. They have gone to great
:56:17. > :56:23.lengths. There were negotiations with local residents to try to
:56:23. > :56:26.arrive at some accommodation and agreement. There have been rigorous
:56:26. > :56:30.attempts and consistent attempts over the past year to try to resolve
:56:30. > :56:34.some of these differences. It is not as if people are sitting on their
:56:34. > :56:42.hands. What has been done has failed, and was attempts dead in the
:56:42. > :56:48.water? No, they are not. Past 48 hours have been a setback. A setback
:56:48. > :56:52.for Unionists and loyalists? Some would say an own goal for Unionists
:56:52. > :56:56.and loyalists. The Secretary of State said this does nothing to
:56:56. > :57:03.promote or celebrate Britishness. is a mistake to blame the Orange
:57:03. > :57:06.Order or loyalists for what has happened over the last 48 hours.
:57:06. > :57:13.That is what Mark Baggett has done. He has fallen into the same trap as
:57:13. > :57:16.others. They demonise loyalists and condemn the Order. We all have a
:57:17. > :57:20.responsibility to work to resolve these contentious issues. Gerry
:57:20. > :57:26.Kelly, there is no point in demonising these people, do you
:57:26. > :57:31.agree with that? I do not think that Unionism and loyalism should be
:57:31. > :57:35.demonise. My community has been demonised many times. But this is an
:57:35. > :57:39.issue of criticising the Orange Order and the leadership of Unionism
:57:39. > :57:46.who are not showing the proper leadership to bring us through.
:57:46. > :57:51.Mervyn Gibson who is irreverent and as the chaplain has thought about
:57:52. > :57:58.the flag-wavers, he has thought about war. He has thought about all
:57:58. > :58:05.of that. Is that what a judge is Persian should be seeing and is that
:58:05. > :58:10.what you see when you think you are going to have this sort of violence?
:58:10. > :58:16.Mervyn Gibson cannot defend himself. At some stage in the future he will
:58:17. > :58:22.come in and talk about that. Thank you both for joining me. Let us hear
:58:22. > :58:28.more from Liam and Sam. Sam McBride, no agreement between the two guest
:58:28. > :58:36.today, do we now have an opportunity to try and resolve this issue or
:58:36. > :58:40.does it get worse and worse? only be that this can be resolved as
:58:40. > :58:50.for all of the politicians to come to an agreement. If you are Peter
:58:50. > :58:50.
:58:50. > :58:58.Robinson trying to sort this out or if you are Martin McGuinness, this
:58:58. > :59:04.is very difficult for both of them. This has not been resurrected in the
:59:04. > :59:09.lifetime of this government. The Democratic coalition has not had a
:59:09. > :59:14.proposal from Stormont saying that they want it repeated. I think there
:59:14. > :59:19.is a need to get things in perspective. They are more matches
:59:19. > :59:25.this year than last year. The Orange Order has not really had its nose
:59:25. > :59:32.rubbed in the docks to the extent that some are claiming. We need some
:59:32. > :59:40.perspective. Thank you for the moment. Let us take a look at the
:59:40. > :59:44.political week that was in 60 Seconds.
:59:44. > :59:49.Blue skies and sunshine this week but not so in the Assembly where
:59:49. > :59:53.there was little warmth when members were we called the debate that BBC
:59:53. > :59:57.Spotlight red sky investigation. When the First Minister goes to his
:59:57. > :00:01.house to talk about transparency, that he might have been going to
:00:01. > :00:06.tell us about the details of his relationship with these
:00:06. > :00:12.individuals. Building Bridges proved difficulty
:00:12. > :00:15.this week. The narrow water project was put on hold after the figure was
:00:15. > :00:19.increased unexpectedly. Orange Order talks with national
:00:19. > :00:26.residents failed to reach an agreement beating the final decision
:00:26. > :00:28.to the Parades Commission. Our job is incredibly difficult to manage
:00:28. > :00:36.the way through this and take decisions that are fair and balanced
:00:36. > :00:40.which we believe this one has. the Orange Order. We are angry and
:00:40. > :00:48.there will be protests. It is our intention and prayers that those
:00:48. > :00:56.protest will be peaceful. Martina Purdy reporting. Final
:00:56. > :01:00.thoughts. We, looking ahead to Tuesday, what can we expect? It is a
:01:00. > :01:04.test of the maturity of the political system. Can the
:01:04. > :01:08.politicians claim back from this situation? I hope there is no
:01:08. > :01:15.grandstanding. They must show that they can provide solutions.
:01:15. > :01:22.crucial thing is whether the Sinn Fein and Unionist relationship has