:01:30. > :01:40.In Northern Ireland, the Health Minister on regulation of the first
:01:40. > :01:40.
:01:40. > :37:47.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2167 seconds
:37:47. > :37:51.abortion clinic and improving Hello and welcome to the Sunday
:37:51. > :37:54.Politics in Northern Ireland. The arguments for and against abortion
:37:54. > :37:59.have been well rehearsed this week after the charity Marie Stopes
:37:59. > :38:03.announced it was opening its first clinic here. Among the issues -
:38:04. > :38:07.what critics say is a grey area around the regulation of the clinic.
:38:07. > :38:10.We'll hear from the Health Minister on his plans to monitor its work
:38:10. > :38:18.and investment in jobs for graduate teachers to improve our children's
:38:18. > :38:28.reading, writing and maths skills. We will insure they can regulate
:38:28. > :38:29.
:38:29. > :38:35.over the course of the next few months. It is a great opportunity
:38:35. > :38:39.because you get to understand how you can improve them and get on in
:38:39. > :38:46.your career. Joining me to discuss all of this is solicitor Tony Cahir
:38:46. > :38:50.and journalist Suzanne Breen. The arrival of Northern Ireland's
:38:50. > :38:54.first abortion clinic has polarised opinion here. Marie Stopes Clinic
:38:54. > :38:57.will open in Belfast on Thursday. Aside from the moral issues,
:38:57. > :39:05.questions are being asked about the monitoring of this clinic by
:39:05. > :39:10.authorities. I spoke to the health minister in his Lisburn office. I
:39:10. > :39:14.began by asking him when he first heard about the clinic. I was
:39:15. > :39:21.notified some months ago that they had an interest in developing a
:39:21. > :39:26.clinic in Northern Ireland. What was your reaction? Well, in terms
:39:26. > :39:31.of abortion, it doesn't make a difference in that they will have
:39:31. > :39:37.to operate in the same rules as abortion is carried out by the NHS.
:39:37. > :39:46.And Northern Ireland has strict rules and guidelines than the rest
:39:46. > :39:53.of the UK and that applies to Marie Stopes. And yet despite having no
:39:53. > :39:58.that notice, you did not make sure there was regulation. We'll have it
:39:58. > :40:03.confirmed in the near future. If it isn't the case we can't regulate
:40:03. > :40:08.and the present regulations and guidance but is there, there will
:40:08. > :40:12.be amended quickly. Otherwise, the police can regulate under the
:40:12. > :40:17.criminal law and that will be subjected to prosecutions. You are
:40:17. > :40:21.prepared to regulate if necessary? It has to be regulated but it will
:40:21. > :40:27.be regulated one way or the other three police or ourselves, it will
:40:27. > :40:31.be regulated. The Department of Health would rather be the
:40:31. > :40:34.organisation that is doing the regulation and who will confirm
:40:34. > :40:40.soon whether that is going to be the case immediately or whether it
:40:41. > :40:45.would take a little longer time to put procedures in place. Are you
:40:45. > :40:50.taking legal advice on the regulation? Yes, and we want to
:40:50. > :40:56.make absolutely certain that the regulation would take place under
:40:56. > :41:02.the existing laws and if their needs to be an amendment to the
:41:02. > :41:07.regulations from the laws will and acted quickly. Are you saying they
:41:07. > :41:11.will regulate? If they can't regulate, we will ensure they will
:41:11. > :41:16.be in a position to regulate over the course of the next few months.
:41:16. > :41:21.And there are no issues around getting executive colleagues on
:41:21. > :41:26.board? I would bring it before the committee but whether you are for
:41:26. > :41:30.or against abortion and makes no difference. The clinics should be
:41:30. > :41:36.regulated. Dentists are regulated so well to have regulation for the
:41:36. > :41:41.extraction of a tooth but not for the extraction of a baby. What is
:41:41. > :41:46.regulation mean for Marie Stopes? Marie Stopes will have to keep
:41:46. > :41:51.adequate records of what they do and particularly if they have
:41:51. > :41:58.offered abortion services to people in Northern Ireland. Those will be
:41:58. > :42:04.clarified by police or the body and if they had stepped outside they
:42:04. > :42:07.would face criminal law proceedings. I would expect they will do exactly
:42:07. > :42:10.the same as anybody in health service would do, the only
:42:11. > :42:15.difference is the individual would pay for it but the health service
:42:15. > :42:21.will be free. Your party says they do not want a change in the current
:42:21. > :42:24.law, do you personally agree with the way the law stands? Well, I
:42:24. > :42:30.look at where we are in Northern Ireland and recognise people have
:42:30. > :42:36.had abortions and I have not heard of women are losing their life as a
:42:36. > :42:40.consequence of the law in Northern Ireland. I am not aware the mental
:42:40. > :42:43.health of the woman has been detrimentally impact. Where is the
:42:44. > :42:49.driver for change? You say in Northern Ireland is a shining
:42:49. > :42:54.beacon and example but other people say it is hypocrisy because women
:42:54. > :42:59.are travelling to England to a double string abortion figures.
:42:59. > :43:05.would hope the discussions taking place both in England, Wales and
:43:05. > :43:09.Scotland are about reducing the availability of abortion and
:43:09. > :43:16.clearly they recognise they went too far. Jeremy Hunt has recognised
:43:16. > :43:22.that, the Prime Minister says the timescale is wrong. So, right
:43:22. > :43:27.across the UK other people are recognising the 1967 abortion Act
:43:27. > :43:33.has failed, it has fared miserably and we are quite right to resist
:43:33. > :43:41.this in Northern Ireland. Are you in favour personally of abortion?
:43:41. > :43:43.support abortion where the mother's life is at risk. And if there are
:43:43. > :43:49.mental health issues and some on his Pemberley harmed as a
:43:49. > :43:56.consequence of it. What about foetal abnormalities? Having had a
:43:56. > :44:01.brother who has learning difficulties, I appreciate and love
:44:01. > :44:06.people who have disabilities. Learning disabilities or physical
:44:06. > :44:10.disabilities. I was brought up in a home where you got a special amount
:44:10. > :44:15.of love from someone who had a learning disability and I detest
:44:15. > :44:19.the facts but because someone has Down's syndrome or some abnormality
:44:19. > :44:25.detected in the womb that the valuable life is of no value. It is
:44:25. > :44:31.wholly wrong and that sort of selection of mankind and human
:44:31. > :44:34.beings is something that we would what -- would do well to avoid.
:44:34. > :44:43.say it doesn't happen in Northern Ireland but are you sure of your
:44:43. > :44:48.facts? What? For example, when a foetal abnormalities? There may be
:44:48. > :44:53.circumstances where a child cannot live outside of the womb. We have
:44:53. > :44:57.to leave those things to clinicians who are well placed to act within
:44:57. > :45:05.legislation. Isn't it time that women have the right to choose in
:45:05. > :45:10.Northern Ireland? Choice is absolutely important. I indicated
:45:11. > :45:16.many thousands are alive as a result of the abortion Act not
:45:17. > :45:24.being around. I expect half those are women and those women have an
:45:24. > :45:29.entitlement to live and that is the best position we could have.
:45:29. > :45:37.Tony Cahir and Susannah Breen a with me. You heard what the
:45:37. > :45:43.minister had to say. Would you think, with the regulator? It is
:45:43. > :45:52.likely. They are fairly adamant they are not going to regulate,
:45:52. > :45:55.they released a statement. They say they were not be regulating in
:45:55. > :45:59.there prison situation but the Department of Health has obligation
:45:59. > :46:06.to ensure but this medical treatment, the after-care, is
:46:06. > :46:08.properly regulated so in addition to that the guidance that's
:46:08. > :46:12.available to medical practitioners and health professionals and the
:46:13. > :46:21.current regime are available to those who practise in the Marie
:46:21. > :46:24.Stopes organisation. Can a stoppage using the law? I have heard people
:46:24. > :46:29.threatening to take judicial reviews, I do not think there's any
:46:30. > :46:33.apparent breach. A lot of work has gone into preparing the ground for
:46:33. > :46:41.the Marie Stopes organisation. I do not think there's anything unlawful
:46:41. > :46:46.about the current intentions. impact will it have in Belfast?
:46:46. > :46:50.think the clinic is of symbolic impact because abortion it does
:46:50. > :46:58.happen, Northern Ireland women have abortions and the trouble to
:46:58. > :47:02.England to access the pills by Marie Stopes under certain criteria.
:47:02. > :47:05.When are axing tablets on the internet so it is of symbolic
:47:06. > :47:11.performance there will be a clinic in Belfast city centre but is
:47:11. > :47:18.offering abortion services to women. The law is disgracefully ambiguous.
:47:18. > :47:23.A do not think disgrace is the 1967 abortion Act, the disgrace is the
:47:23. > :47:28.failure of our politicians here too probably address this issue.
:47:28. > :47:32.politician's afraid of the issue? think they are under leads to all
:47:32. > :47:35.sorts of problems, for example, the case were 14-year-old girl was
:47:35. > :47:40.pregnant, in a children's home, she said she would commit suicide if
:47:40. > :47:45.she was forced have a baby and she was beating her stomach in an
:47:45. > :47:49.attempt to abort the baby. The case would court and the judge said she
:47:49. > :47:53.could have abortion yet no medical practitioner was found in Northern
:47:53. > :47:58.Ireland to actually give her an abortion and 14 you will travel to
:47:58. > :48:02.Britain. These cases do happen but we don't hear about them.
:48:02. > :48:07.important is it for politicians to ensure the law is clarified?
:48:07. > :48:11.law is clear, what's essential is the guidance is made available to
:48:11. > :48:15.all of those in the field, the decision as to whether a woman's
:48:15. > :48:22.health will be adversely affected in a serious and long-term weight
:48:22. > :48:27.is a subjective decision on the part of the commission. They need
:48:27. > :48:32.guidance. Perhaps that has not been clear in the past. There is work to
:48:32. > :48:37.be done. The Department promises guidance will be published, it is
:48:37. > :48:42.an issue. But what is the widest possible interpretation of the law?
:48:42. > :48:47.Well, the law is clear at the moment. You can only have an
:48:47. > :48:55.abortion if the woman's life is in danger or she will suffer permanent
:48:55. > :48:59.and serious ill-health. Some commentators say the law makes its
:48:59. > :49:02.beleaguered to procure a miscarriage and there was being
:49:02. > :49:09.prosecuted. No one has been prosecuted in Northern Ireland but
:49:09. > :49:14.the law has changed considerably over the years since 1861, the 1945
:49:14. > :49:18.statute allowing for abortion in limited circumstances and is being
:49:18. > :49:24.interpreted in various cases including once Suzanne talked about.
:49:24. > :49:29.The law is Clare but the interpretation and guidance and
:49:29. > :49:33.guidelines are still in a state of flux. Cezanne, is the first
:49:33. > :49:41.abortion clinic on the island of Ireland, we see people crossing the
:49:41. > :49:46.border? Some will choose to travel north rather than having to book
:49:46. > :49:51.flights and go to Britain. However, it's not as simple as it looks. In
:49:51. > :49:54.Britain, women are able to have consultation in a day and tablets
:49:54. > :49:59.in the same day. In Northern Ireland they will have to stay
:49:59. > :50:03.overnight, they will have a consultation and they were not be
:50:03. > :50:08.given tablets until the next day. The law as it stands is more
:50:08. > :50:13.liberal in Britain when for example they do not have to have
:50:13. > :50:18.psychiatric to stick before having an abortion. Women here will and we
:50:18. > :50:21.are talking about only nine weeks, the first nine weeks of pregnancy,
:50:21. > :50:26.that's all that is offered to women seeking termination but in Britain
:50:26. > :50:31.the law is up to 24 weeks. The situation is substantially more
:50:31. > :50:36.liberal in Britain. Women with a foetal abnormality, that a
:50:36. > :50:41.potentially would not be diagnosed until 20 weeks so the clinical be
:50:41. > :50:51.of no use to them. Do you want a change in the law? I would like to
:50:51. > :50:52.
:50:52. > :50:55.see the 1967 abortion Act applied Funding has been given by Stormont
:50:55. > :51:00.for newly qualified teachers to give tuition to children who are
:51:00. > :51:03.experiencing problems with reading and math skills. It's one of a
:51:03. > :51:09.number of projects just announced by the First and Deputy First
:51:10. > :51:15.Minister. Here's what they had to say about the scheme.
:51:15. > :51:20.It is precisely because we recognise the potential but with
:51:20. > :51:24.indicated we are talking about a recently qualified teachers, people
:51:24. > :51:27.looking for a career, it will be up to the part of education to bring
:51:27. > :51:32.forward the mechanism but the schemes will have to be approved by
:51:32. > :51:35.cars so it is an issue we have identified as being required for
:51:35. > :51:40.Stowe while we are talking about the jobs it creates, let's be clear
:51:40. > :51:47.about was the key issue. What we are attempting to do is get behind
:51:47. > :51:53.and give people a start in life. Let's be clear this is about 230
:51:53. > :51:59.effectively new jobs and it's about bringing newly graduated teachers
:51:59. > :52:04.to work stream. I think it will be hugely welcome by the unions, the
:52:04. > :52:08.schools he will benefit, the People's and the families and
:52:08. > :52:15.business community who recognise this is a fairly innovative
:52:15. > :52:20.approach, an approach we need to continue to explore. We've spoken
:52:20. > :52:26.with student teachers at St Mary's college in Belfast. We study
:52:26. > :52:32.regularly and learning ideas. It's a great opportunity to practise.
:52:32. > :52:39.It's a great opportunity. You get to understand how you can improve
:52:39. > :52:44.and you can take it on in your career. St Mary's students are well
:52:44. > :52:54.equipped to teach numeracy and maths. It has set us up for the
:52:54. > :52:54.
:52:54. > :52:58.task. We are delighted and think we can raise the bar. How badly is the
:52:58. > :53:01.investment needed? The Investment is to be welcomed but it's a drop
:53:01. > :53:07.in the ocean given the problems in numeracy and literacy in Northern
:53:07. > :53:11.Ireland is experiencing. In terms of creating jobs, we have to
:53:11. > :53:15.remember there are 4,000 young teachers here who can't find work.
:53:15. > :53:19.It is to be welcomed but it's a drop in the ocean and I can't see
:53:19. > :53:23.it making a substantial difference. If we're talking about improving
:53:23. > :53:28.people's job opportunities after the leave school, we have to
:53:28. > :53:33.remember there are people unemployed who have degrees and
:53:33. > :53:39.masters so improved literacy and numeracy is not automatically go to
:53:39. > :53:46.mean a job. People with well qualifications are not go to work.
:53:46. > :53:53.Do you come across problems in your everyday work? I am afraid I do.
:53:53. > :54:01.Bad grammar is reflected in a lack of literacy skills all the time in
:54:01. > :54:05.that Larne. Really, the application of law is to make sure people can
:54:05. > :54:08.persuade and dreadful grammar and an inability to express themselves
:54:08. > :54:12.and inability to put forward an argument then that means that
:54:12. > :54:18.person is not particularly persuasive. It is important that
:54:18. > :54:23.people can show competence in all areas of life. Competence in
:54:23. > :54:26.numeracy and literacy is extremely important and this has to be
:54:26. > :54:32.welcomed across-the-board, not just from the point of view of providing
:54:32. > :54:36.jobs but to ensure standards are improved in Northern Ireland.
:54:36. > :54:40.hard to believe someone can go through years of education as they
:54:40. > :54:44.struggle with basic reading and writing. Yes, it is a damning
:54:44. > :54:48.indictment of the education system but we have to look at cultural
:54:48. > :54:51.attitudes in some areas. I think that unfortunately some children
:54:51. > :54:57.are brought up in homes were parents regard good parenting as
:54:57. > :55:02.may be being on spending thousands for First Communion and Christmas
:55:02. > :55:06.and birthday as opposed to focusing on their children's education.
:55:06. > :55:11.What's important is the environment that child returns to when they
:55:11. > :55:16.come home. A lot of work has to be done in terms of improving that and
:55:16. > :55:23.improving our cultural attitudes. It is also a role for parents.
:55:23. > :55:27.Perhaps more important parents and take that. Many years it, though
:55:28. > :55:32.books lying around everywhere and parents ensured there were books
:55:32. > :55:37.for children. It is dying out and it's to be regretted. Our teachers
:55:37. > :55:42.spending too much time on transfer and not on the basics? On the
:55:42. > :55:47.transfer test? No, I am in favour of the 11 plus, I do nothing that's
:55:47. > :55:55.the case. They are -- they Rushall falls in the system that have not
:55:55. > :56:00.been addressed. Parents and families really need to look at
:56:00. > :56:04.what the child is doing, they need to liaise with the school and what
:56:04. > :56:09.happens at home is important. Children have to be encouraged to
:56:09. > :56:15.read and be pushed by their parents and to be motivated as opposed to
:56:15. > :56:18.parents putting money for birthdays and First communions, tens of
:56:18. > :56:23.thousands of pounds spent on children rather than simple things
:56:23. > :56:28.like sitting down at teaching a child and reading with your child
:56:28. > :56:32.and educating a child a home. What happens after 3pm in the home is as
:56:32. > :56:39.important if not more so as what happens in school. Some people
:56:39. > :56:46.might see it as a contribution and they are closing libraries. --
:56:46. > :56:50.contradictions. It is regrettable libraries are closing, it seems to
:56:50. > :56:54.me the services have been improved, is disgraceful libraries are being
:56:54. > :57:01.closed and I would hope this is a first step on the part of the
:57:01. > :57:04.executive to realise we must ensure that those skills are improved and
:57:04. > :57:07.opening libraries is one feature. Welfare reform, banking
:57:07. > :57:17.compensation and loose marbles. Just some of the goings on in our
:57:17. > :57:21.
:57:21. > :57:25.look at the week's politics in The Chief Constable hit back over
:57:25. > :57:30.an Audit Office report. The report doesn't use the word damning or
:57:30. > :57:34.failure. The executive announced new jobs the teachers. Derry City
:57:34. > :57:39.Council was asked if it can get a culture train back on track.
:57:39. > :57:47.have talent, resources and expertise. More importantly we have
:57:47. > :57:55.a city that can deliver. Ulster chiefs faced MLAs. The incident was
:57:55. > :58:00.a disaster. Alex fought for women's rights during the debate. Some of
:58:00. > :58:05.my best friends are men but some are men are not good with money in
:58:05. > :58:14.a pocket. The Bill passed its second stage. But all I've got to
:58:14. > :58:24.say. And as part of World Mental Health Day, the MLAs fought to hold
:58:24. > :58:31.
:58:31. > :58:35.There were 10 hours' debate on the world far -- Welfare Reform Bill.
:58:35. > :58:38.am not sure anybody would have wanted to spend more than half an
:58:38. > :58:42.hour watching what went on in the chamber. The majority of people did
:58:42. > :58:47.not do that but it's a welcome change they are discussing a
:58:47. > :58:52.meaningful matters and that rather than taking up endless hours about
:58:52. > :58:57.flags and such like which do not benefit the population here. It is
:58:57. > :58:59.a welcome change. This is a controversial bill, it is tricky
:58:59. > :59:04.for politicians because they haven't got a lot of room for
:59:04. > :59:09.manoeuvre. They haven't. In some ways it is a talking shop in terms
:59:09. > :59:12.of the debate. A lot of ordinary people will feel the politicians
:59:12. > :59:18.are out of touch with ordinary people's lives and what people
:59:18. > :59:22.would like to see, for example the money paid to advisers is
:59:22. > :59:25.scandalous. People are struggling on minimum wage and less. They
:59:25. > :59:30.would like to see that tackled ahead of the politicians
:59:30. > :59:35.pontificating on welfare reform when they are living lives but is
:59:35. > :59:39.beyond ordinary people's dreams. Peter Robinson gave a speech
:59:39. > :59:44.talking about streamlining Stormont and reducing the number of MLAs.
:59:44. > :59:48.And moving towards a political coalition. The voluntary coalition
:59:48. > :59:53.I am not sure is very likely in the short term. A number of politicians
:59:53. > :59:58.have spoken out against that. In terms of reducing the bureaucracy
:59:58. > :00:02.and numbers of people involved in the executive, that would be
:00:02. > :00:06.welcome across the board and that part of the speech was welcomed.
:00:06. > :00:11.you see any gradual changes at Stormont in terms of a voluntary
:00:11. > :00:15.coalition, Peter Robinson indicated changes in funding in opposition.
:00:15. > :00:20.don't but it would be welcome. His hugely undemocratic there is no
:00:20. > :00:24.opposition at Stormont. I would be in favour of a voluntary coalition,
:00:24. > :00:28.a mandatory coalition goes against every principle of transparency and