:01:31. > :01:35.And in Northern Ireland an executive reshuffle could see
:01:36. > :01:45.alliance lose a ministry. Is red tape adding to the troubles of the
:01:46. > :01:46.
:01:46. > :29:55.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1689 seconds
:29:55. > :29:59.Welcome to Northern Ireland. It has been long talked about, cutting
:29:59. > :30:04.back Stormont departments, but the executive caught everyone by
:30:04. > :30:10.surprise with the proposal to scrap employment and learning and resolve
:30:10. > :30:15.the problem of what happens to justice. For one party it will not
:30:15. > :30:20.be as sweet as the existing proposition. But we believe it is
:30:20. > :30:26.our best attempt at trying to get the highest level of consensus.
:30:26. > :30:32.shake-up or a carve up? We will here from the alliance and Sinn
:30:32. > :30:38.Fein. Also: We have it on authority that few contractors are getting it
:30:38. > :30:48.over the line. It is frustrating. Does red tape have a strangle hold
:30:48. > :30:49.
:30:49. > :30:57.on the construction industry? New year and a new look for us. Each
:30:57. > :31:04.week I'm joined by two guests. Today I'm joined by Dawn Purvis and
:31:04. > :31:09.Tom Kelly. It has been the big story of the week, Dawn, somebody
:31:09. > :31:14.said the Assembly is full of negotiators rather than legislators,
:31:14. > :31:22.is this not example? Yes nexts have continued, but that is the nature
:31:22. > :31:27.of democratic politics. It is about reaching consensus and moving on.
:31:27. > :31:31.So yes, negotiations is part of democratic politics. But a good
:31:31. > :31:36.idea, it seem we can't do anything. We always push things to the brink.
:31:36. > :31:39.That is the nature. But it is the nature of politics. We don't start
:31:40. > :31:44.the work six months in advance. We leave it to the last minute. But
:31:44. > :31:48.the discussion about the number of departments and the
:31:48. > :31:53.responsibilities the departments is long overdue. Tom Kelly, what do
:31:53. > :31:58.you think, malicious, a carve up, or just a sign that it wasn't fair
:31:58. > :32:02.the thing the way it was working? There are three things. One way it
:32:02. > :32:08.is squaring off the fact that alliance had an extra ministry,
:32:08. > :32:12.which seemed to annoy some people. Or it is about slim down government
:32:12. > :32:16.or that it doesn't make sense as a stand alone department. I don't
:32:17. > :32:20.think it does make sense as a stand alone department and needs to be
:32:20. > :32:24.aligned to the needs of industry and part of it should go to
:32:24. > :32:30.enterprise, trade and employment to be more competitive. That is the
:32:30. > :32:34.important thing. I wouldn't get too hung up about alliance losing the
:32:34. > :32:38.ministry. But it is progress. But it is not slimmed down government
:32:38. > :32:42.if you just move everyone over. Stay with us, plenty more to talk
:32:42. > :32:47.about. So the parties have until tomorrow to deliver their verdicts
:32:48. > :32:52.on the proposal to scrap employment and learning and allowing David
:32:52. > :33:02.Ford to remain as justice minister. The first and deputy First
:33:02. > :33:03.
:33:03. > :33:11.Ministers said their plan is the right one. I'm joined by two guests.
:33:11. > :33:15.Nay owe Mee Long it is just fairness? The reality is there an
:33:15. > :33:20.anomaly. There are three separate issues and they are being brought
:33:20. > :33:24.together in a way that does not deal with any of them. First it is
:33:24. > :33:28.about how we appoint a justice minister and how the community can
:33:28. > :33:32.have confidence in him. And then what happens if that goes outside
:33:32. > :33:36.the mechanism and we make sure there is fairness within the other
:33:36. > :33:41.ministries that. Needs to be assessed. And then there is the
:33:41. > :33:46.separate issue of how we slim down government. The proposal doesn't do
:33:46. > :33:51.that. It fixs the particular problem of alliance having two
:33:51. > :33:54.ministries. But if at some point the SDLP was to nominate the
:33:55. > :33:59.justice minister, it wouldn't stop them having a disproportionate
:33:59. > :34:06.number of seats. It does Nantes deal with the fact that there is a
:34:06. > :34:11.lodge jibg to this. But there never been an argument it should go to
:34:11. > :34:16.Department of Education. That is because there is a kafb up between
:34:16. > :34:21.the dup -- carve up between the DUP and Sinn Fein. None of what we
:34:21. > :34:27.discussed will be about the Alliance Party nominating for
:34:27. > :34:31.justice. That is a decision we will take when the changes are made. It
:34:31. > :34:35.is an irrelevance about the structures. And that is we're
:34:35. > :34:43.focused on. Not who holds the ministries or this they will hold
:34:43. > :34:48.them in a short period, but what works for long-term. Was it a
:34:48. > :34:51.political carve up? What was the motive? What we have achieved is
:34:51. > :34:55.stability. The introduction of policing and justice, there was
:34:55. > :35:00.concerns about how that would be delivered. Sinn Fein continued to
:35:00. > :35:05.arguing it should be a local ministry and it has worked well.
:35:05. > :35:08.The sky did not fall in, despite the prodictions of some. Justice
:35:08. > :35:13.has worked. We have a formula to ensloo ur that there will continue
:35:13. > :35:17.to be a Justice Ministry on a cross community vote to give it
:35:17. > :35:22.confidence of the community. We also have avoided the last minute
:35:22. > :35:26.crisis talks. This should not come as a surprise. Everyone knew there
:35:26. > :35:32.was a sun set clause when the ministry was formed. If parties
:35:32. > :35:37.hadn't been discussing this, they should have been. Sinn Fein and the
:35:37. > :35:44.DUP have brought this to a head and said we believe it is the best way
:35:44. > :35:47.forward. It is logical that certain sections would go to trade and
:35:47. > :35:54.enterprise and universities and higher education go to education.
:35:54. > :35:58.Why would we not have a seamless education system, from pre-school
:35:58. > :36:03.through primary school, postprimary school and on to higher level.
:36:04. > :36:10.Education is about creating the workforce of the future. The skills
:36:10. > :36:14.agenda is not as seemless as you make it out. The CBI said their
:36:14. > :36:19.pre-Wednesday rens would be fr a department of economy. --
:36:19. > :36:21.preference. And would streamline that into looking at how we make
:36:21. > :36:26.those sections of education deliver for business. That is important,
:36:26. > :36:33.what we are are arguing about is how those functions will work and
:36:33. > :36:36.the argument that was brought after a review was that Del should
:36:36. > :36:41.transfer entirely. Sinn Fein will have an issue with that, because
:36:41. > :36:47.that is a DUP ministry. But it does not, you're not making a
:36:47. > :36:53.counterargument as to why you would put it anyone else. They are
:36:53. > :36:58.telling me our education system to meet our tris and we propose
:36:58. > :37:01.from the earlys days of a child in school, they will go through all
:37:01. > :37:05.elements of training, including training and skills and further and
:37:05. > :37:11.higher education. We now have that system in place and that can only
:37:11. > :37:16.be good for education and for our economy. Why not do the whole
:37:16. > :37:20.reconstruction of the departments at once? Why have justice as your
:37:20. > :37:24.priority, that is what it seems, we wanted to sort out justice at the
:37:24. > :37:32.expense of education? We have sorted out justice. We have sorted
:37:32. > :37:35.out the issue where people had concern about the representation of
:37:35. > :37:39.the Alliance Party and the issue oorned the department of
:37:39. > :37:44.departments. There is a review that was built into the agreement about
:37:44. > :37:50.the number and scale O'departments and the number of Assembly members.
:37:50. > :37:57.All those matter will be resolved. But this was a time to deal with
:37:58. > :38:02.the three issues. We do have limited amount of time, is David
:38:02. > :38:07.Ford's threat to resign not over the top? But whatever structures
:38:07. > :38:13.put in place will depend on whether the alliance chooses to nominate.
:38:13. > :38:20.That is a separate issue we will have to discuss. Other parties may
:38:20. > :38:25.decide to nominate and they be -- may p elected. We got it because no
:38:25. > :38:30.one else had cross community support. What the proposal does not
:38:30. > :38:35.do is address the situation where another party does command cross
:38:35. > :38:39.community support. The anomaly would pass on to another party. Our
:38:39. > :38:43.proposals remove that anomaly and give whoever is the minister for
:38:43. > :38:50.justice the same security as any other minister and put forward
:38:50. > :38:56.propose ands that will allows to maximise the benefit to the public.
:38:56. > :39:00.We want efficient and effective Government where money is spent on
:39:00. > :39:05.public services. I want to ask you about the money. A lot of people in
:39:05. > :39:09.the teaching profession, parents, pupil, does the �120 that was
:39:09. > :39:13.announced mean that everyone can breathe a sigh of relief. Those
:39:13. > :39:22.redundancies that people were talk about, will they now not happen?
:39:22. > :39:25.The � 1250 -- �120 is a sigh of relief. But we have not eradicated
:39:25. > :39:28.the problem. We have eased the pressures and saves hundreds of
:39:28. > :39:35.jobs and secured the future education of our young people. But
:39:35. > :39:40.I will continue to work with the executive in a bid to gain further
:39:40. > :39:45.investment in education. But the recent announcement is welcome. It
:39:46. > :39:51.has saved swrobs and secured our education system. Thank you. --
:39:51. > :39:56.jobs. I want to catch up some of the points about education. Dawn
:39:56. > :40:02.Purvis you took a great interest in this area, do cow think this money
:40:02. > :40:06.will be -- do you think this money will be good news for schools and
:40:06. > :40:10.they will withdraw back from the redundancies. You can take some
:40:10. > :40:18.comfort from the money, but the minister has said there is still
:40:18. > :40:23.pressures and they won't be a -- achieve lated by -- alleviated by
:40:23. > :40:26.the money. We should be concerned at the carve up and what thought
:40:26. > :40:34.has gone into where the responsibilities of Del lie. We
:40:34. > :40:37.talk about the functions of Del going to trade and investment. We
:40:37. > :40:42.should look in the opposite direction and we should look at the
:40:42. > :40:46.kpt of -- department of education - - Department of Education having
:40:46. > :40:50.responsibility for education from childhood through young people and
:40:50. > :40:53.adult education. I am concerned about young people not in
:40:53. > :40:56.employment, education or training, where the responsibilities for
:40:56. > :40:59.those lie. It should be within the Department of Education and adult
:40:59. > :41:05.education should remain. Because it is skills that drive the economy
:41:05. > :41:12.and not the other way. There is an issue about the economy and it is
:41:12. > :41:17.spread over many departments. any way to run a government, this
:41:17. > :41:22.confusing message in the run up to Christmas, it is a prophet and
:41:22. > :41:26.doofl a then Santa Claus appears. It is not a good way to run
:41:26. > :41:29.government. But the practicalities means that is the way we run it. If
:41:29. > :41:32.the minister finds money from other areas and they prioritise the money
:41:32. > :41:38.that is spare, then they are doing a good thing. It would be worse if
:41:38. > :41:40.they were handing it back to the Treasury. Plenty more to talk about.
:41:40. > :41:46.Well the construction industry's going through tough times and there
:41:46. > :41:51.is no sign of an upturn. So what can Stormont do? At least half of
:41:51. > :41:55.the Executive will meet represent e represent yifrs of building
:41:55. > :42:05.industry to discuss the problems. - - representatives. The ministers
:42:05. > :42:13.
:42:13. > :42:17.will be asked to cut bureaucracy and speed up public works. Sean
:42:17. > :42:22.MacMahon has been in the industry for 30 year, but his experience
:42:22. > :42:29.counts for little in winning public sector contracts. The procurement
:42:29. > :42:34.process is a red tape nightmare for small firms. It is because of this
:42:34. > :42:39.document, the pre-qualification questionnare. It is costly to
:42:39. > :42:43.produce not only on our resource but to achieve qualification on
:42:43. > :42:47.tender lists we have employed consultants to help us gain
:42:47. > :42:52.selection for the lists. We have it on good authority that few
:42:52. > :42:58.contractors are successful in getting over the line. It is
:42:58. > :43:03.frustrating, very annoying and very demoralising. The framework is set
:43:03. > :43:08.down by European directive A report prepared for the European
:43:08. > :43:11.Commission found the UK had the slowest and most costly procurement
:43:11. > :43:16.procedures in the EU. The Royal Society of Ulster Architects says
:43:17. > :43:22.its member are falling foul of the bureaucracy. Its following the lead
:43:22. > :43:29.of Scotland by lobbying politicians for a review of the process. It is
:43:29. > :43:35.regarded as a risk business. The civil servants want to Maike I is
:43:35. > :43:40.dotted and T is crossed. But it comes at a cost. I think we would
:43:41. > :43:44.like to look at a good review of procurement. I think it would be
:43:44. > :43:49.worthwhile. The problems with procurement couldn't come at a
:43:49. > :43:56.worse time for the industry. Companies are being hit hard and
:43:56. > :44:03.some can't take the pressure. Thrf there were 53 insolvencies in the
:44:03. > :44:06.year to 2010. Many trades men also went bankrupt. The Department of
:44:06. > :44:12.Enterprise says almost 33,000 people were working in the
:44:12. > :44:16.construction sector in September. That is down 8.5% on the previous
:44:16. > :44:22.year. According to the employers federation, at least 30,000 jobs
:44:22. > :44:27.have been lost in the industry in four years. On Tuesday, the all
:44:27. > :44:30.party working group on construction will meet at least six executive
:44:30. > :44:35.ministers here at Stormont. The ministers will be asked to speed up
:44:35. > :44:38.their spending plans. It could be looked at that the Executive is
:44:38. > :44:44.trying to hold back pa some of the infrastructure projects until
:44:44. > :44:50.before an election. So that it is seen to be spending money. From an
:44:50. > :44:56.industry point of view, there is no t much point in doing that if a
:44:56. > :45:00.whole pile of businesses go out of business. We have to look at the
:45:00. > :45:03.programme of government, see how it is spending money, the types of
:45:04. > :45:08.project that it is spending money on. The representative of the
:45:08. > :45:15.industry due here for this meeting on Tuesday say they want more than
:45:15. > :45:19.tea and sympathy. What they want is to see real action, that will
:45:19. > :45:26.prevent further job losses and stop more firms from going into
:45:26. > :45:32.bankruptcy. Tom Kelly, its seems almost criminal this has been
:45:32. > :45:37.allowed to arise that some small companies, they are in some way
:45:37. > :45:41.being... Sacrificed if you like. Because of Government's policy.
:45:41. > :45:47.Government pro pr curement should be overhauled, because it is too
:45:47. > :45:53.complicated and the fact is that it is a lot about box ticking and
:45:53. > :45:59.little about deliver Iy. -- delivery. The fact they were going
:46:00. > :46:02.to meet six Ministers shows the complexity of doing business here,
:46:02. > :46:07.so many ministries have an impact on the construction industry, but
:46:07. > :46:13.not having joined up thinking in term of how they create jobs. That
:46:13. > :46:18.is a problem. This is about jobs and not business. It is about a
:46:18. > :46:23.jobs agenda and that is the people sitting at home who are unemployed.
:46:24. > :46:28.Dawn Purvis too many chiefs? Yes it is functions 06 a department are
:46:28. > :46:33.spread over many departments. The economy is spread over five
:46:33. > :46:39.departments and procurement is split over six departments. And the
:46:39. > :46:43.Assembly finance and personnel committee published a report into
:46:43. > :46:47.public procurement and much of the issues that were raised were
:46:47. > :46:53.highlighted in that report. Bureaucracy is massive and it does
:46:53. > :47:00.lock out businesss from Northern Ireland. And if the executive are
:47:00. > :47:10.serious about growing the economy they must address the issue. Now a
:47:10. > :47:16.round up of the political week in 60 seconds. New year new look at
:47:16. > :47:20.the Executive, but is Stephen Farry being sacrificed to keep David Ford
:47:20. > :47:25.at justice? We have a workable proposal. We look forward to take
:47:25. > :47:32.it through the Assembly and having the change in place before the date
:47:32. > :47:42.that is set. One job in the Executive causes a political row.
:47:42. > :47:47.
:47:47. > :47:52.But 350 are to go at the Ulster Bank. And invest NI hands back
:47:52. > :47:57.millions saying they can't get people to spend the money. And a
:47:57. > :48:01.kind gesture from the deputy First Minister at the summit. We have a
:48:01. > :48:05.cast until Belfast and I am sure we would be prepared to make it
:48:05. > :48:15.available for peace diskugszs between the British Government and
:48:15. > :48:16.
:48:16. > :48:20.-- discussions between the British Government and Scotland! Well Tom
:48:20. > :48:25.Kelly, how will nationalists view the debate for independence. Will
:48:25. > :48:30.they be optimistic I think the real issue is how unionists will regard
:48:30. > :48:34.Scotland opting out. They have looked at them as being political
:48:34. > :48:38.cousin and made much of the relationship with Scotland, where
:48:38. > :48:44.Scotland has by and large been looking at the republic and Iceland
:48:44. > :48:48.and saying we could do this on our own. So I think nationalists will
:48:48. > :48:52.look at it amusingly and Martin McGuinness is right and we have a
:48:52. > :48:56.castle here. What about unionists will there be any nerves about the
:48:56. > :49:02.possibility of Scottish independence? Yes Martin
:49:02. > :49:06.McGuinness's words are profeltic and we will look at - o' prophetic
:49:06. > :49:11.and we look at peace talks. We know sectarianism is an issue that exist
:49:11. > :49:16.as much in Scotland as it does within Northern Ireland. I think
:49:16. > :49:20.those who are unionists in Northern Ireland will be lobbying heavily
:49:20. > :49:23.for Scotland to remain part of union and you may see some of our
:49:23. > :49:29.high profile figures over there lobbying on behalf of those in
:49:29. > :49:32.swhrand who want to remain within the union. Like Peter Robinson?
:49:32. > :49:37.and Tom Elliott and many other unionists leaders. Certainly those