:01:31. > :01:34.In half an hour's time, the first of many centenaries as the Titanic
:01:34. > :01:44.is remembered. Will it set the tone for the flurry of political
:01:44. > :01:44.
:01:44. > :30:38.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1734 seconds
:30:38. > :30:45.Welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. It has been a
:30:45. > :30:49.week marked by an influx of visitors. Most of them are here for
:30:49. > :30:51.the Titanic centenary. But a trade visit from one of China's most
:30:51. > :30:55.senior politicians attracted almost as much media attention.
:30:55. > :31:04.The red carpet was rolled out for Madame Liu Yandong in a bid to
:31:04. > :31:09.boost trade links. But at what cost?
:31:09. > :31:17.Today, a big commemorations. Lot of anniversary is still to come. Join
:31:17. > :31:27.me here later at Titanic Belfast. End are their Second World War
:31:27. > :31:29.
:31:29. > :31:32.secrets in -- and are there Second World War secrets in the Foyle?
:31:32. > :31:42.In order for Northern Ireland to reach out what the rest of the
:31:42. > :31:46.world, we have to reach out to one of the biggest economic powerhouses.
:31:47. > :31:52.But does it come at a price, pockets before principles? In a
:31:52. > :32:02.moment I will be put in that question to the East Belfast MP
:32:02. > :32:04.
:32:04. > :32:08.Naomi long. But first I am joined by writer Martina Devlin and PR
:32:08. > :32:14.consultant Nick Garbutt. What did you make of it is it? You have to
:32:14. > :32:20.ask yourself, is money the only rationale? China is not a democracy.
:32:20. > :32:26.There is not freedom of worship for freedom of protest. There is no
:32:26. > :32:32.freedom to elect a government. Let us not forget the great fire Wall
:32:32. > :32:36.of China concerning the internet. People do not know what is going on
:32:36. > :32:46.in their own country. This is what we are dealing with. Politicians
:32:46. > :32:46.
:32:46. > :32:55.have to ask themselves the question, do I put my can such wind's welfare
:32:55. > :33:00.-- do I put my constituents welfare below that of economic profit?
:33:00. > :33:05.is a matter for the Foreign Office and for David Cameron to be dealing
:33:05. > :33:12.with rather than Peter Robinson. That part of government has not
:33:13. > :33:19.been devolved. There are issues but just look at our economy. 70 %
:33:19. > :33:25.dependent on the public sector. China is a communist country. It is
:33:25. > :33:32.only 40 % dependent on its public sector. It shows how far we have to
:33:32. > :33:38.go. I noticed that the local media were kept behind the ropes and the
:33:38. > :33:44.Chinese media were left to wonder fray. We are not able to lecture on
:33:44. > :33:48.issues like nepotism when it comes to China. Nevertheless I think
:33:48. > :33:53.money cannot be the bottom line when it comes to dealing with
:33:53. > :34:01.people. It is putting a gloss on it to say that perhaps some persuasion
:34:01. > :34:08.can be brought upon China. I do not see them listening to this little
:34:08. > :34:13.corner of the world. A new signature project concerning the
:34:13. > :34:19.Titanic drew in one of China's most influential politicians. Our
:34:19. > :34:26.correspondent joins me now. What did she make of the visit? Is it is
:34:26. > :34:31.important from an economic perspective. I think it is about
:34:31. > :34:37.getting the balance right. It is difficult to tell if we are doing
:34:37. > :34:43.that. There has been a statement coming through from the ministers
:34:43. > :34:50.as to whether or not issues were raised about ethics in China.
:34:50. > :34:54.think the issues of human rights were raised. The are ways to do
:34:54. > :35:01.that very gently. I have met with the -- there are ways to do that
:35:01. > :35:06.very gently. You have to build a relationship before you can broach
:35:06. > :35:11.these issues. As China becomes more and were facing, you have to use
:35:11. > :35:15.opportunities to raise these issues with them. I do not think Northern
:35:15. > :35:24.Ireland will be a turning point. We have to be realistic about what we
:35:24. > :35:27.will be likely to achieve. I think some of the work has to be done
:35:27. > :35:31.through the universities. There needs to be an exchange of students.
:35:31. > :35:38.There is an opportunity there to open up a country that is otherwise
:35:38. > :35:43.a very closed and we should take those opportunities seriously.
:35:43. > :35:47.you think Helmand is the place to raise these issues? The foreign com
:35:47. > :35:50.-- do you think Parliament is the place to raise these issues? I
:35:50. > :35:54.personally believe that every opportunity you have you should
:35:54. > :36:01.raise these issues. It has always been the case that international
:36:01. > :36:10.policy has been debated at Westminster. But way back when we
:36:10. > :36:14.were in our heyday we were not turning away slave labour -- we
:36:14. > :36:19.were not turning away ships because we bought slave labour was wrong.
:36:19. > :36:24.This is about finding the right balance. -- thought slave labour
:36:24. > :36:30.was wrong. Do you think our politicians could have gone away
:36:30. > :36:34.with lecturing China? Be it is never about lecturing people. -- it
:36:34. > :36:38.is never about lecturing people. I do not think we should be lecturing
:36:38. > :36:42.people. If you can have a delicate discussion you can raise the issue
:36:42. > :36:47.and make people aware that even in Northern Ireland, a relatively
:36:47. > :36:53.small part of the world, people are conscious of what is happening in
:36:53. > :37:00.China and are interested about what is happening there. Making the
:37:00. > :37:04.government beware of that is a useful thing to do. A relationship
:37:05. > :37:12.has to be built, that is the way to change how China operates in a
:37:12. > :37:21.global environment. We have the Confucius Institute and various
:37:21. > :37:24.other strong links to China. What can China offer us? From an
:37:24. > :37:28.educational background, at the opportunity for people to
:37:28. > :37:35.experience another culture is hugely important as we try to
:37:35. > :37:40.develop. We are looking at new technologies and so on and we need
:37:40. > :37:47.the expertise. They have to learn from us as well. There are things
:37:47. > :37:52.we have been seeing in Northern Ireland's that can be exported. The
:37:53. > :37:57.cultural exchange is very important. I think it is an important part of
:37:57. > :38:01.opening up China to the outside world and also open up people from
:38:01. > :38:05.that country to see what it is like to live in some of the Western
:38:05. > :38:11.democracies. I think a change in China will happen as a result of
:38:11. > :38:19.that moment rather than people lecturing each other across a table.
:38:19. > :38:27.This comes after elements of the University and higher learning will
:38:27. > :38:35.be scrapped. I have not been party to any of the remote -- Burham Hill
:38:35. > :38:42.about this. -- rumour mill about this. I would you that there has to
:38:42. > :38:47.be some form of public consultation about the dissolution of certain
:38:47. > :38:51.departments. I am not aware that these consultations have started. I
:38:51. > :38:55.believe it would have to happen and there would have to be due process
:38:55. > :39:01.around it. There would have to be a proper legislative process put in
:39:01. > :39:07.place. By think they intend to do that -- but I think they intend to
:39:07. > :39:14.do that. I think there is a much broader view about which
:39:14. > :39:16.departments could be dissolved and perhaps the work in the assembly
:39:16. > :39:21.into something more effective. That is not the process that has been
:39:21. > :39:29.engaged on by the executive as it stands. In terms of Westminster,
:39:29. > :39:33.there is this pressure. Where does it stems from? A thing it is an
:39:33. > :39:37.issue in Northern Ireland that we do not have to -- across I think it
:39:37. > :39:41.is an issue in Northern Ireland but we do not have to declare our party
:39:41. > :39:46.donations. That is for security issues, that was the argument that
:39:46. > :39:51.was made. We made an argument as a party that this year's financial
:39:51. > :39:57.returns would be make -- made public. I think it is important
:39:57. > :40:02.that people know who pay the politicians and he pays the party.
:40:02. > :40:07.-- and who pays the parties. We need money to do our business but
:40:07. > :40:10.it is important for people to see who does that. A lot of the
:40:10. > :40:14.discussion we have had in Westminster has proven that some
:40:14. > :40:18.people are uncertain about this. This weekend there has been a
:40:18. > :40:28.series of events to mark the One hundred anniversary of the sinking
:40:28. > :40:28.
:40:28. > :40:32.of the Titanic and the loss of more than 1,000 lives. -- one hundredth.
:40:32. > :40:36.Our correspondent joins us from Titanic Belfast.
:40:36. > :40:41.By the end of today, more than 50,000 people will have passed
:40:41. > :40:49.through the doors of this new building here, Titanic Belfast. Two
:40:49. > :40:54.of those are visiting us here. We have seen a lot of celebration.
:40:54. > :41:00.There was a rock concert just outside Aunt Friday night. Today
:41:00. > :41:05.there is a solemn commemoration. -- on Friday night. Should the
:41:05. > :41:12.commemoration have come before the celebration? We have heard this
:41:12. > :41:18.argument recently. It is actually absolutely packed here today. There
:41:18. > :41:23.is a large part of this that is about remembering those people that
:41:24. > :41:31.died. I have been here twice and I must say that I have been very
:41:31. > :41:35.moved both times. The assembly here has ordered the people who died.
:41:35. > :41:39.The centre is all about history but there are some and the national
:41:39. > :41:45.community that feels that part of the history has been perhaps a
:41:45. > :41:55.little airbrush, particularly around the treatment of Catholics
:41:55. > :41:58.
:41:58. > :42:04.and the shipyard in those days. in the shipyard. If you look at
:42:04. > :42:10.1912, at the end of July 1912, there was a public statement made
:42:10. > :42:14.by a bishop that estimated that 3,000 Catholics had been put out in
:42:14. > :42:19.the shipyards and other industrial sites in Belfast. That is part of
:42:19. > :42:29.Titanic history. Do you think that is lost in the telling of the story
:42:29. > :42:30.
:42:30. > :42:37.now? Palace and Labour men were also put out. -- Protestant labour
:42:37. > :42:42.men were also put out. There were terrible conditions. I hope that
:42:42. > :42:51.this year when we look at the totality of the story we have a
:42:51. > :42:53.deeper understanding of the conditions of our city. We have
:42:53. > :42:59.seen the First Minister and Deputy First Minister embracing this as a
:42:59. > :43:09.shared space. Are we creating a template for some of the other
:43:09. > :43:13.
:43:13. > :43:23.territories that are coming up? -- anniversaries that are coming up?
:43:23. > :43:30.It is about celebrating and remembrance, these anniversaries. I
:43:30. > :43:35.heard a lecture and a was well received. I think that can be
:43:35. > :43:40.replicated for the next couple of years. -- and it was well received.
:43:40. > :43:46.Some of these are politically divisive and controversial. Yes,
:43:46. > :43:53.there can be a combustible dynamic. I think that really enhances our
:43:53. > :43:57.sense of us. I think we have a much more layered and complex view of
:43:57. > :44:04.ourselves. We are not a one- dimensional people. There are many
:44:04. > :44:10.dimensions to our story. I think there's dimensions give us a sense
:44:10. > :44:14.-- I think those dimensions give us a sense of ourselves. What is your
:44:14. > :44:23.hope of the economic benefit of this centre washing over into your
:44:23. > :44:27.constituency in East Belfast? Certainly we have seen thousands of
:44:27. > :44:31.tourists coming here in the past few weeks. We want to ensure that
:44:31. > :44:36.local people will advance themselves to a training and jobs
:44:36. > :44:43.around here. I have seen a number of young people who were unemployed
:44:43. > :44:53.working in here and that made me happy. Thank you for joining us
:44:53. > :44:54.
:44:54. > :44:58.That is it from Titanic Belfast. Back to you in the studio.
:44:58. > :45:05.Back to our studio guests on the issue of the Titanic. Nick, are we
:45:05. > :45:09.striking the right balance between respect and remembrance for a week
:45:09. > :45:15.crudely cashing in on an opportunity? I would have preferred
:45:15. > :45:19.if they could have launched the building last year so that we could
:45:19. > :45:23.actually be solemnly commemorating what was a devastatingly terrible
:45:23. > :45:28.tragedy. Having said that, I think that everything that I have seen
:45:28. > :45:34.and read has been dignified and has been appropriate and I think that
:45:34. > :45:39.we are striking the right balance. I do not think there is any damage
:45:39. > :45:45.or bad thing about Belfast becoming a great centre for four people
:45:45. > :45:49.coming to learn about the Titanic and for the -- for many people to
:45:49. > :45:59.come and learn about the Titanic. Do you think this is a new
:45:59. > :46:00.
:46:00. > :46:07.opportunity for a new narrative? There was some resentment that --
:46:07. > :46:10.there was some resentment by nationalists. If all the elements
:46:11. > :46:17.are remembered and lessons are learned and that is a way to move
:46:17. > :46:23.forward. There was sectarianism surrounding it. That is a reminder
:46:23. > :46:29.to us never to have this sort of policies again, just as the Titanic
:46:29. > :46:33.is a reminder not to send ships to say if they do not have enough
:46:33. > :46:40.lifeboats. Better abroad ships to see if they do not have enough left
:46:40. > :46:47.but -- to send ships to see if they do not have enough white boats. I
:46:47. > :46:51.would like to see Belfast get its moment in the sun. Won, it is
:46:51. > :46:59.amazing -- and Saif Al-Islam, it is amazing, the cachet that the
:46:59. > :47:09.Titanic -- Nick, it is amazing, the cachet that the Titanic has across
:47:09. > :47:10.
:47:10. > :47:14.It is amazing. I have been trying to work it out myself. I am
:47:14. > :47:24.fascinated by the Titanic, but possibly because I am fascinated by
:47:24. > :47:24.
:47:24. > :47:34.drowning. It is my biggest fear. think we could save you! It is an
:47:34. > :47:35.
:47:35. > :47:39.appalling tragedy, isn't it? It is almost mythic in its circumstances.
:47:40. > :47:45.Those people would have been filled with hope and excitement. It is
:47:45. > :47:50.also great fodder for writers. did write a book about the Titanic.
:47:50. > :47:59.I suppose I had a personal reason because my friend Terence eloped on
:47:59. > :48:03.the Titanic. James Cameron still Arab family story, really. -- our
:48:03. > :48:13.grandparents eloped on the Titanic. James Cameron stole our family
:48:13. > :48:25.
:48:25. > :48:31.story, really. Here is hour look at Republicans marked Easter and said
:48:31. > :48:39.that the IRA was not a business. There is no other IRA in Belfast or
:48:39. > :48:45.anywhere else. And there is no arms struggle to be finished. 100 years
:48:45. > :48:53.on, we mark the Titanic's final stop in Ireland. Flag flying caused
:48:53. > :48:57.a storm on the hill. They knew this not going to get through. I do not
:48:57. > :49:03.know if this is a gesture towards people in their own party that they
:49:03. > :49:09.are fighting what, but it is certainly not going to happen.
:49:09. > :49:13.Four-inch men got permission to watch on Stormont's grounds. --
:49:13. > :49:17.orange men. We said hello to China's most
:49:17. > :49:27.powerful woman. And the environment minister was to solve the mystery
:49:27. > :49:31.
:49:31. > :49:35.The flags issue is like the poor, it is always with us. Can you see a
:49:35. > :49:38.Irish Tricolour flying over Stormont any time soon? We were
:49:38. > :49:42.listening to the segment before where they were talking about
:49:42. > :49:48.anniversaries coming up and how we are going to deal with those. We
:49:48. > :49:53.have got some difficult coming -- difficult ones coming. We have the
:49:53. > :49:57.anniversary of the foundation of the UVF. There is the foundation of
:49:57. > :50:02.the Irish citizens' army. How will we have a collective view of those
:50:02. > :50:07.events if we get in a row about flags? Martina, do you think there
:50:07. > :50:14.will be any change? I think we should do away with flags entirely.