:00:37. > :00:45.comparing the mission of the European Union with
:00:46. > :00:47.what Hitler was trying to achieve - has the Leave campaign's self-styled
:00:48. > :00:54.Churchillian attack dog gone too far?
:00:55. > :00:55.He says leaving the European Union
:00:56. > :00:58.will improve the lives of the "have nots" -
:00:59. > :01:01.but is the man who presided over billions of pounds of welfare
:01:02. > :01:02.cuts really on the side of working people?
:01:03. > :01:07.Reducing the powers of the House of Lords
:01:08. > :01:09.would not be acceptable, says the woman charged with keeping order
:01:10. > :01:12.in the upper house - but with 60 government defeats
:01:13. > :01:14.in the last year alone have their Lord and Ladyships
:01:15. > :01:18.And coming up here: The architect of opposition at Stormont,
:01:19. > :01:21.the former MLA John McCalllister, gives us his verdict
:01:22. > :01:24.on the Ulster Unionist Party's move out of government.
:01:25. > :01:40.And with me - as always - three journalists who'd have been
:01:41. > :01:43.sure to win the Eurovision political punditry contest: Helen Lewis,
:01:44. > :01:45.Isabel Oakeshott and Amol Rajan who'll be tweeting throughout
:01:46. > :01:51.So earlier in the week the Prime Minister warned that
:01:52. > :01:53.leaving the EU could precipitate armed conflict in Europe.
:01:54. > :01:56.Today, Boris Johnson hits back, comparing the European Union
:01:57. > :01:59.to Hitler in an interview with the Sunday Telegraph:
:02:00. > :02:01."Napoleon, Hitler, various people tried this out,
:02:02. > :02:19.The EU is an attempt to do this by different methods."
:02:20. > :02:22.Boris goes on to say "The euro has become a means by which superior
:02:23. > :02:25.German productivity is able to gain an absolutely unbeatable advantage
:02:26. > :02:42.Could you organise an ordinance that British politicians should just shut
:02:43. > :02:49.up about Hitler? It is an interesting one, the campaign are
:02:50. > :02:55.getting quite grumpy, saying that he was not really talking about Hitler.
:02:56. > :02:59.Boris is to clever not to know that if you mention Napoleon and Hitler
:03:00. > :03:08.people will write headlines. He is a columnist and he knows this. It is
:03:09. > :03:17.bizarre. It was Sadiq Khan sitting at home thinking he was the only
:03:18. > :03:21.London mayor was not mentioned Hitler? The campaign has become
:03:22. > :03:28.quite personal, it is about David Cameron's relationship with them,
:03:29. > :03:38.and whether he has a hope of becoming leader. And as always like
:03:39. > :03:43.to make things personal. It does not surprisingly in the slightest that
:03:44. > :03:49.it is becoming more personal as the clock ticks towards the key date. On
:03:50. > :03:55.Boris Johnson's comments, absolutely agree with Helen but no good can
:03:56. > :03:59.come of a politician mentioning Hitler, but the reaction to the
:04:00. > :04:05.remarks has been rather hysterical. If anyone bothers reading the
:04:06. > :04:14.context... In the context. The Mac was an absolutely reasonable
:04:15. > :04:18.statement of historical fact. We should not get to a point where
:04:19. > :04:23.nobody can mention anything historical without it creating a
:04:24. > :04:29.ridiculous action. I don't think it will be arise if it helps them win
:04:30. > :04:37.votes. He fancies herself as an inherent to Winston Churchill, it
:04:38. > :04:44.was in store. In your dreams, if the copy had come in and you had seen
:04:45. > :04:50.the word logo might think you have a chance for a headline. Ever since
:04:51. > :05:02.the collapse of the Roman Empire there have been attempts to unify
:05:03. > :05:08.Europe. In a way, the Germans have that... There was a slight
:05:09. > :05:10.difference in having endless pragmatic committees and ruling
:05:11. > :05:16.tanks and to Poland. By different means is quite different. He was
:05:17. > :05:22.arguing it was an attempt to unify Europe, it is bundled together
:05:23. > :05:31.different ideas. It is a bit of a stretch. But overstretch! I think
:05:32. > :05:41.there was a real danger... And what is the European Union, parable?
:05:42. > :05:45.People support Brexit would say it was an attempt to build a European
:05:46. > :05:53.super structure without a Democratic base. Democratic nations. It is
:05:54. > :05:56.completely reasonable. Ireland begins to cover girl to make
:05:57. > :06:05.important arguments about historical trends. Butler was Fromer remark.
:06:06. > :06:25.He only mentioned Napoleon. Maybe he should have mentioned other leaders.
:06:26. > :06:30.What do you make of the polls, showing neck and neck but they are
:06:31. > :06:39.so far ahead in the economic argument, and that is why we will
:06:40. > :06:46.win. They always hoped that. The evidence is that people put the
:06:47. > :06:51.economy as the highest concern. What the Leave campaign is trying to do,
:06:52. > :06:57.we've seen this from Nigel Farage, make the point that this is not just
:06:58. > :07:05.about GDP, a few extra pounds in your pocket. The Leave campaign will
:07:06. > :07:12.be hoping to highlight the question of what this means for society.
:07:13. > :07:15.Now - would leaving the European Union be good
:07:16. > :07:16.for the poor and disadvantaged in Britain?
:07:17. > :07:19.That's the case that's being made by the former Work
:07:20. > :07:20.and Pension Secretary Iain Duncan Smith.
:07:21. > :07:22.I will be talking to him in a moment.
:07:23. > :07:25.But first let's hear the warnings earlier this week about
:07:26. > :07:26.the short-term impact of Brexit on the economy
:07:27. > :07:34.from the Governor Bank of England, Mark Carney.
:07:35. > :07:37.A vote to leave the European Union could have material economic effects
:07:38. > :07:40.on the exchange rate, on demand, and on the economy's
:07:41. > :07:45.So, this combination of influences on demand,
:07:46. > :07:48.supply and the exchange rate could lead to a materially lower
:07:49. > :08:00.path for growth and a notably higher path for inflation
:08:01. > :08:02.than in the central projections set out in today's
:08:03. > :08:18.Welcome back to the Sunday Politics. You've claimed that leaving the EU
:08:19. > :08:25.would be good for the have nots but the Governor of the Bank of England
:08:26. > :08:28.says it could lead to recession, inflation, unemployment. That could
:08:29. > :08:34.be bad. If all the predictions were right. Every single one of these
:08:35. > :08:37.predictions is done by groups of people who've got most of their
:08:38. > :08:47.predictions wrong. The point I would make to you, the Treasury prediction
:08:48. > :08:52.and the IMS prediction all show that if Britain left the EU the economy
:08:53. > :08:59.would grow. Their argument is it would not grow as fast but how you
:09:00. > :09:12.can predict a 0.6% variation is beyond me. He was the point I really
:09:13. > :09:17.believe about the bank, which is where I find this very back. I think
:09:18. > :09:22.the bank, the governor has strayed into an expression of a simple,
:09:23. > :09:26.personal prediction. I don't think it is actually possible for you to
:09:27. > :09:31.say with any absolute accuracy that that will happen. In a sense, when
:09:32. > :09:35.you listen to what he said, he started to nuance about the idea, he
:09:36. > :09:39.was not seeing it actually would be comic he said he thought it could be
:09:40. > :09:44.about that. Here is my point about the independence of the Bank of
:09:45. > :09:49.England. Section ten of the 1998 act makes it very clear that if he is to
:09:50. > :09:55.talk about monetary policies, for which he has independence, he has to
:09:56. > :10:02.be open, impartial and all things must be available. Last year, in
:10:03. > :10:05.2015, when he spoke about the threat to the British economy, he made the
:10:06. > :10:11.point which Mervyn King has made that the euro instability and the
:10:12. > :10:16.crash has been very damaging to the British economy and will be even
:10:17. > :10:20.more damaging as it goes on. Notice that when he came out on Thursday he
:10:21. > :10:29.said nothing about the overall problems if we remained in. If
:10:30. > :10:33.you're going to be impartial then you had damned well better say
:10:34. > :10:38.something about the alternative case and the threats of remaining are
:10:39. > :10:44.very clear. Mervyn King said there is a crisis going on and he does not
:10:45. > :10:53.see an end to it. Why don't we hear from him about that? Has he breached
:10:54. > :11:01.his obligations as Governor of the Bank of England? I believe that he
:11:02. > :11:08.has. Should he resign? I think he ought to be asked why he has not
:11:09. > :11:14.brought out both sides of the issue. He used to work for Goldman Sachs.
:11:15. > :11:24.They are running through this, funding the campaign, he has been
:11:25. > :11:28.very clear on it. You bring out Goldman Sachs, lack of impartiality,
:11:29. > :11:34.you think he is not keeping his remit, should he resign? I think he
:11:35. > :11:41.needs to answer about this one simple charge. I would like to see
:11:42. > :11:47.the e-mail exchange over this issue, the telephone conversation minutes,
:11:48. > :11:50.to see whether the Treasury has had any involvement in this process
:11:51. > :11:57.whatsoever, what worries me slightly about what is going on, the Bank of
:11:58. > :12:02.Scotland comes out on Thursday and then suddenly the head of the IMF
:12:03. > :12:06.comes out on Friday with a similar prediction. These are the same
:12:07. > :12:12.people that were telling us all that the UK is too small to leave and too
:12:13. > :12:15.insignificant. Now we are so insignificant that we are plunging
:12:16. > :12:26.the world into an economic crash. Are we saying this was an accident?
:12:27. > :12:34.The governor did not call? Let me ask you this, we know what made...
:12:35. > :12:42.Are you saying they are colluding? I wonder. Do you have any evidence?
:12:43. > :12:45.Suddenly on Wednesday and Thursday, you have reports coming out, do you
:12:46. > :12:51.think they spoke to each other about what they are doing? I wonder about
:12:52. > :13:00.that. The Chancellor is supporting the governor, he then stands behind
:13:01. > :13:08.Christine Lagarde. We know that they are players in this. The IMF always
:13:09. > :13:12.works with them. We know which major economic authorities you don't like.
:13:13. > :13:17.The Treasury, the IMF, the Bank of England, the OECD, which major
:13:18. > :13:22.economic authorities do you rate? There have been some good reports
:13:23. > :13:26.out, there are a number of good economists, lots of others from the
:13:27. > :13:31.city who have produced a report which got very little coverage about
:13:32. > :13:36.the prospect... Any major economic apologies? Yes but when they have
:13:37. > :13:42.come out with these reports they have said the UK would continue to
:13:43. > :13:45.grow. Not as quickly. Not as quickly. My point is if you're going
:13:46. > :13:51.to be balanced you need to constantly reference that point and
:13:52. > :13:54.if they want to say that there is a possibility this could lead to a
:13:55. > :14:01.problem he must also point out that if we remain there is a possibility
:14:02. > :14:06.that we will be damaged by this. You made that .3 times. Let me ask you,
:14:07. > :14:11.can you name a major economic authority on your side of the
:14:12. > :14:19.argument? I would not expect one to be on our side. So you have none? It
:14:20. > :14:23.would be completely unusual for all these institutions not to want to
:14:24. > :14:29.act the status quo. All these institutions said there was no
:14:30. > :14:37.problem in 2007 and then one year later we hit the buffers and the
:14:38. > :14:41.economy went down. None of them predicted it. Including the
:14:42. > :14:48.Conservatives. None of them have apologised for their failure.
:14:49. > :14:56.I want to show you this chart. This shows our balance of payments, our
:14:57. > :15:02.deficit. It is the difference between our exports and imports. We
:15:03. > :15:05.import a lot more than we export in goods and services. It has
:15:06. > :15:11.continually got worse under your government. This deficit, which is
:15:12. > :15:19.multi-billion, is financed by foreigners who buy our sterling as I
:15:20. > :15:23.to make up the gap. If Brexit create a falling pound, why would the
:15:24. > :15:28.foreigners continue to pay for our deficit? If the economy didn't
:15:29. > :15:32.perform, why would be, but if you look at all those who predicted
:15:33. > :15:36.where we would be now, they all said the threat of Brexit would actually
:15:37. > :15:40.bring the pound crashing. The pound is now rising back up, close to
:15:41. > :15:48.where it was when we started this campaign. 10% on last November. We
:15:49. > :15:52.had this deficit, it is financed by foreigners. If they lose confidence
:15:53. > :15:59.in this country, confidence in Stirling, how do we pay for this? We
:16:00. > :16:02.have to make sure we run the economy in a way that they have confidence
:16:03. > :16:06.in it, we have to get some of those regulations down, we have to make
:16:07. > :16:11.British industry more competitive. We have to have a better plan to get
:16:12. > :16:15.industry working again. That would be in the long term, this could be a
:16:16. > :16:21.short-term problem that could hit in the summer. If it results leaving in
:16:22. > :16:24.an uncontrolled, plummeting sterling, and the foreigners because
:16:25. > :16:28.of the uncertainty and sterling going down are saying we are not
:16:29. > :16:35.going to continue to finance it, the bank would have to raise interest
:16:36. > :16:39.rates, wouldn't it? If that was the circumstance, yes, but it is what
:16:40. > :16:47.you plan to do. Why are they investing in what we are doing at
:16:48. > :16:50.the moment? They buy the bonds because they believe the Government
:16:51. > :16:55.has a long-term plan to get the deficit down and reduce borrowing.
:16:56. > :17:00.Therefore they believe the UK is a good investment and running a trade
:17:01. > :17:07.surplus with the rest of the world. We are running a huge deficit. Yes,
:17:08. > :17:11.but we are running a trade surplus. If they need to finance this
:17:12. > :17:18.deficit, and it is not the budget deficit, it is how the foreigners by
:17:19. > :17:23.our assets in order to help us run this deficit. If interest rate did
:17:24. > :17:28.rise, it follows that mortgage rates could rise substantially. Yes but
:17:29. > :17:33.the alternative could be the same, in other words if they believe what
:17:34. > :17:37.we are doing is right for the economy they are prepared to back
:17:38. > :17:40.it, which means you wouldn't have rising interest rates. All of this
:17:41. > :17:48.is speculation because we don't know. Boris Johnson has admitted
:17:49. > :17:55.that after Brexit there would be a Nike tick, that he believes the
:17:56. > :18:00.economy would take a hit, but it would recover strongly. Do you
:18:01. > :18:04.believe that? Possibly but this is speculation about something nobody
:18:05. > :18:09.knows. There has been speculation about forecast in these economies,
:18:10. > :18:14.most of them are wrong because people are unable to tell us about
:18:15. > :18:19.what they think about our prospects afterwards. If we vote to leave, we
:18:20. > :18:23.are already able to show we can get our money back in due course and we
:18:24. > :18:27.are able to start planning our own economy so we are able to get the
:18:28. > :18:32.kind of deals we need. That shows you have a plan that works. You
:18:33. > :18:38.could offer short-term crisis in the interim, couldn't you? They are
:18:39. > :18:43.worried whether their mortgage will have risen by August or September of
:18:44. > :18:49.this year. If that were to happen but the word is if. This is pure
:18:50. > :18:53.speculation. The point I am making is that the reality is it may go in
:18:54. > :19:00.the opposite direction. Nobody can say that. The EU guarantees a number
:19:01. > :19:06.of social protections for workers, covering things like equal pay,
:19:07. > :19:11.working time, maternity pay. Can you pledged to fight to maintain all of
:19:12. > :19:14.these protections if we leave? All of these were accepted by the
:19:15. > :19:18.Conservative government and I believe strongly then need to be
:19:19. > :19:24.protections for workers. All of these things in a democracy are
:19:25. > :19:29.debated but the British government have actually themselves instituted
:19:30. > :19:32.protections for workers. So would you fight to keep the protections
:19:33. > :19:40.they currently have under EU guarantees? As it stands, yes. Why
:19:41. > :19:46.should people trust you because you opposed the Web Time directive in
:19:47. > :19:50.1996, and voted against the minimum wage in 1997. Why would they have
:19:51. > :19:55.not looked to you for this social protection? Because rather than
:19:56. > :20:01.forecast ahead, look back at what has happened to them. The
:20:02. > :20:05.immigration has damaged them. I'm simply saying what has happened,
:20:06. > :20:10.therefore my argument has been, and you have known that over a long
:20:11. > :20:13.time, over nine years I have argued this process has been most damaging
:20:14. > :20:22.to the people at the low skilled end. That is the migration issue, it
:20:23. > :20:26.may well be true. I'm asking you why should people trust you on these EU
:20:27. > :20:29.social protections that they would remain if we came out since you
:20:30. > :20:36.voted against them when they were being proposed? The working Time
:20:37. > :20:41.directive gave little or no flexibility at the time. It has been
:20:42. > :20:45.in place and we had to work with it. You protect the workforce but you
:20:46. > :20:51.make sure the competition that they face in terms of their jobs is
:20:52. > :20:54.actually fair competition, not unfair competition. What has
:20:55. > :20:58.happened, as you saw on Thursday with the national insurance numbers,
:20:59. > :21:04.is a very high proportion of people coming in in under 52 weeks here who
:21:05. > :21:12.have no commitment to the UK often staying in bed sits, compete on the
:21:13. > :21:16.low salary end of life. Is the working Time directive, which
:21:17. > :21:22.guarantees the hours people work in a week and proper breaks, is that
:21:23. > :21:26.safe after Brexit or not? UK law would enshrine what we think is best
:21:27. > :21:31.for protection of workforce and that is right. A democratic government
:21:32. > :21:36.will decide on what it thinks is right. That is possible for Labour
:21:37. > :21:42.or Conservative. I believe it is right to have it, the question is
:21:43. > :21:46.how flexible... People watching this will not be reassured by this. I
:21:47. > :21:53.will stick to the agreements we have. You point your fist in the
:21:54. > :21:58.Commons when the Chancellor announced the new national living
:21:59. > :22:04.wage, now you say it is a magnet for migrants, what changed? I said it is
:22:05. > :22:09.a good people for people wanting to come and work here because they will
:22:10. > :22:13.get a higher wage. I am wholly in favour of a rise to the minimum wage
:22:14. > :22:17.because I believe that over time what happens to businesses is they
:22:18. > :22:25.have got around paying lower wages... Would you still be in
:22:26. > :22:30.favour of it if we stayed in the EU? Yes, because it is the best way you
:22:31. > :22:34.can drive the wages up but if we stay in the EU it will become a
:22:35. > :22:39.magnet for people to come in here and it will lead to huge problems.
:22:40. > :22:44.The point I made on Tuesday this week was that have we have seen
:22:45. > :22:49.already lots of people from the EU tend to come in. The vast majority
:22:50. > :22:54.of people coming from the European Union into the UK, they tend to be
:22:55. > :22:58.low skills, they tend to be ones taking a high proportion of those
:22:59. > :23:04.low skilled jobs. They have taken them at lesser salary and driven it
:23:05. > :23:08.down. The overall average wage will still be low for those on low
:23:09. > :23:13.skills. You have brought up migration several times in this
:23:14. > :23:18.interview, isn't the blunt truth, because I was asking about the
:23:19. > :23:24.economics, you are losing the economic arguments, the polls show
:23:25. > :23:36.that, you are more dependent on scaring people. John Major says:
:23:37. > :23:46.What do you say? Rubbish. Very simple, he is talking nonsense. He
:23:47. > :23:50.said only a few years ago that there was a real issue over immigration.
:23:51. > :23:56.The Government had a target to get tens of thousands, the limit down to
:23:57. > :24:00.tens of thousands, we are not achieving that. We talked about it
:24:01. > :24:05.in the run-up to the election. The Prime Minister himself made a strong
:24:06. > :24:08.commitment that we would ensure our borders were protected against
:24:09. > :24:12.people coming to be here so it is nonsense because we are not raising
:24:13. > :24:15.this is an issue because we are trying to win the referendum. Most
:24:16. > :24:21.people in the country believes there is an issue about the open border
:24:22. > :24:31.with the European Union. Why is it demagoguery, why is it extremism to
:24:32. > :24:34.speak for British people who feel like their views are being tossed
:24:35. > :24:36.aside? If you don't do it, the extreme parties get onto it. Was it
:24:37. > :24:43.wise Boris Johnson to compare the EU's ambitions? I thought it was a
:24:44. > :24:51.good article because he spoke about this nonsensical... Was it wise to
:24:52. > :24:56.compare it with Hitler? Do you think Hitler's efforts to unify Europe are
:24:57. > :25:03.the same as the European Union's efforts? I think the whole process
:25:04. > :25:09.of trying to drive Europe together by force or democracy ultimately
:25:10. > :25:13.makes problems. Isn't this referendum getting vaguely absurd?
:25:14. > :25:18.We have the Prime Minister dangling the thought of world War three if we
:25:19. > :25:22.leave, and on your side we have Boris Johnson saying Hitler and the
:25:23. > :25:27.European Union are on the same script. It is both nonsense and you
:25:28. > :25:34.know that. All he is doing in the interview is talking about the trend
:25:35. > :25:41.towards the idea, and he's using historical parallels to explain it.
:25:42. > :25:45.You go through this great idea that somehow there is a thing called
:25:46. > :25:50.greater Europe. Whether or not you like the linguistics of this, my
:25:51. > :25:56.point remains the same. If you vote to remain on the 23rd, you are
:25:57. > :26:03.voting, the 12 residents said it clear that they intend to deepen...
:26:04. > :26:10.The five presidents. The five presidents rather. David Cameron and
:26:11. > :26:15.George Osborne won't debate other Tory ministers during the
:26:16. > :26:21.referendum, are they concerned about party unity or just running scared?
:26:22. > :26:25.You will have to ask them. My view about it is that it is right to have
:26:26. > :26:30.a proper debate and by not opening that debate the British public will
:26:31. > :26:33.be left to wonder why they were not allowed to see the two opposing
:26:34. > :26:40.sides of the argument from the leading figures. You would debate
:26:41. > :26:43.the Prime Minister? Yes, we need to get these things straight
:26:44. > :26:48.face-to-face. After all, if this were an election would be Remain
:26:49. > :26:54.side be allowed to say we won't debate Ed Miliband fustian might
:26:55. > :26:57.know, they cannot do that. There are two side to this argument, if two
:26:58. > :27:05.sides have to debate it that is right and proper. It should be down
:27:06. > :27:08.to impartiality that we have two sides, the two sets of leaders. Iain
:27:09. > :27:12.Duncan Smith, thank you. Now, the Commons are elected,
:27:13. > :27:15.the House of Lords are not and is supposed to be
:27:16. > :27:17.a "revising chamber". But have their lord and ladyships
:27:18. > :27:19.been overstepping the mark? Over the the past year,
:27:20. > :27:21.they've inflicted 60 defeats on a Government that's now poised
:27:22. > :27:24.to clip the Lord's wings - reducing their power
:27:25. > :27:26.to block changes in the law. But in an exclusive interview before
:27:27. > :27:29.she steps down as the speaker of the House of Lords in the summer,
:27:30. > :27:32.Baroness D'Souza has told us that the powers of the Lords
:27:33. > :27:35.should not be curtailed. It's very obvious why
:27:36. > :27:43.they are called the crossbenchers, My guide knows this place pretty
:27:44. > :27:50.well, how it works, who's who. Since 2011, she's been Lord Speaker,
:27:51. > :27:52.a role which involves overseeing proceedings here,
:27:53. > :27:54.representing the Lords at home and abroad, and sitting
:27:55. > :28:00.on a sack of wool. But the business in here over
:28:01. > :28:07.which Baroness D'Souza presides has come under increasing criticism
:28:08. > :28:11.from the Government. 247 members of the House of Lords
:28:12. > :28:14.sit as Conservatives peers, making the governing party
:28:15. > :28:16.a significant minority of the 807 members eligible to take
:28:17. > :28:23.part in the Upper House. The Government has faced 60 defeats
:28:24. > :28:27.in the House of Lords in the most The rate of defeats this time
:28:28. > :28:31.round is more than twice that Then, the Government was defeated
:28:32. > :28:37.in less than a quarter of votes compared to more
:28:38. > :28:42.than half in the present one. Now there's a sense that the Lords
:28:43. > :28:45.are too rebellious, they have been too rebellious over the last few
:28:46. > :28:47.years and essentially the Lords You know, all governments
:28:48. > :28:51.and all parliamentarians, or at least House of Commons,
:28:52. > :28:58.always feel that the House of Lords is a place that thwarts them
:28:59. > :29:01.in one way or another. And they're right, they do,
:29:02. > :29:06.but that is in the nature They have all the power
:29:07. > :29:14.and rightly so. I still think it's right
:29:15. > :29:17.that the Lords should be free to scrutinise and to question
:29:18. > :29:20.and to hold the Government to account, and to send back
:29:21. > :29:24.legislation which it feels is not adequate, either in terms
:29:25. > :29:29.of its clarity or because perhaps it infringes from time to time
:29:30. > :29:31.individual liberties And that's exactly what happened
:29:32. > :29:38.last October. The House of Lords effectively
:29:39. > :29:40.blocked the Government's proposed changes to tax credits,
:29:41. > :29:43.a massive blow to George Unelected Labour and Liberal Lords
:29:44. > :29:50.have voted down a matter passed by the elected House of Commons,
:29:51. > :29:53.that raises constitutional issues and David Cameron and I are clear
:29:54. > :29:57.they will need to be dealt with. The way they dealt with it was to
:29:58. > :30:00.ask Lord Strathclyde He concluded peers should
:30:01. > :30:04.lose their absolute veto over detailed laws known as secondary
:30:05. > :30:08.legislation, and instead be allowed only to send it back
:30:09. > :30:11.to the Commons to think again. There's going to be a lively debate
:30:12. > :30:15.about this in the House of Lords and I think that there will be a lot
:30:16. > :30:19.of views expressed and obviously you would expect the Lords
:30:20. > :30:22.to want to retain their power to scrutinise their power,
:30:23. > :30:25.their privilege. If you start curtailing or eroding
:30:26. > :30:30.or limiting the power of the Lords to do its job,
:30:31. > :30:34.there is a question There is another question,
:30:35. > :30:43.too, over the sheer number Baroness D'Souza told me
:30:44. > :30:47.she would be pushing for a Lords motion in the new session,
:30:48. > :30:50.she says the House of Lords should not be larger than the Commons,
:30:51. > :30:53.suggesting the number of peers At least 20% of them should be
:30:54. > :30:57.independents or crossbenchers, and no one party should
:30:58. > :31:00.have a political majority. She said all of that can
:31:01. > :31:03.be achieved by 2020. So, the size is making
:31:04. > :31:06.it inefficient? It does have an impact unfortunately
:31:07. > :31:16.on the role of the House of Lords in holding the Government
:31:17. > :31:19.to account. It's very difficult if you're
:31:20. > :31:21.limited to sort of say, in timed debates, a minute or two
:31:22. > :31:24.minutes to speak, to develop a sustained argument
:31:25. > :31:26.which will convince your fellow peers but also the Government
:31:27. > :31:29.of what it is you are The traditional pomp and ceremony
:31:30. > :31:33.of the Lords is well known but its relationship
:31:34. > :31:35.with the Commons and exactly what role it can play in the future
:31:36. > :31:42.is far more uncertain. And the man who was charged
:31:43. > :31:45.by the Government to review the Lord's powers, Tam Strathclyde,
:31:46. > :31:54.joins us now from Oxfordshire. Welcome to the programme. Nice to
:31:55. > :32:02.see the sun is shining rate you are. We've just heard, what would be the
:32:03. > :32:09.point of the Lloyds if the powers are watered down as your review
:32:10. > :32:12.proposes. What do you say to her? There is no suggestion and no
:32:13. > :32:17.recommendation by anybody in government to fundamentally change
:32:18. > :32:25.the powers of the House of Lords. I made the most mild and humble
:32:26. > :32:29.recommendation about process, where frankly most of us had understood
:32:30. > :32:36.that the customs and conventions that had been built up would stick.
:32:37. > :32:41.Last October, they broke down, as a result there is no consensus and
:32:42. > :32:55.agreement on what those powers could be. I propose a new power to be able
:32:56. > :33:03.to reject and ask. What is interesting is every school child
:33:04. > :33:08.knows that the purpose of the House of Lords is to scrutinise but not to
:33:09. > :33:14.block. What happened was the House of Lords using a veto and given it
:33:15. > :33:21.is unelected, I don't think that power should ever be used. Is the
:33:22. > :33:24.government going to implement your recommendations? Since I reported
:33:25. > :33:30.before Christmas there have been four further reports, three in the
:33:31. > :33:36.House of Lords and one in the House of Commons, commenting on this. I
:33:37. > :33:41.think what the government will want to do is look carefully at these
:33:42. > :33:45.reports before responding. I don't think there needs to be a rush to
:33:46. > :33:50.legislation, and there may well be an attempt to get an agreement
:33:51. > :33:53.between the parties in the House of Lords, between the two Houses of
:33:54. > :34:00.Parliament. But if that consensus cannot be reached, I think the
:34:01. > :34:06.government will have no option but to legislate on this matter. Your
:34:07. > :34:10.government has had 60 defeats at the hands of the Lords. You wonder
:34:11. > :34:14.whether the conservative tune has changed because it was Tory peers
:34:15. > :34:19.inflicting defeat on Labour governments. Now you are getting a
:34:20. > :34:25.taste of your own historic medicine, you just don't like it. I was Leader
:34:26. > :34:44.of the Opposition for most of those years, particularly after the end of
:34:45. > :34:47.the last century. We did defeat the government regularly on primary
:34:48. > :34:52.legislation, not secondary legislation. What was interesting in
:34:53. > :34:56.your package is the government has been defeated in the House of Lords
:34:57. > :35:02.many more times than it did in the first Parliament of Tony Blair's
:35:03. > :35:06.government. Over half of all the votes in the House of Lords are
:35:07. > :35:10.defeated. This is not revision and scrutiny, this is not complementing
:35:11. > :35:14.the work of the House of Commons, this is an aggressive political
:35:15. > :35:20.statement why the other political parties. Is it really? This is a
:35:21. > :35:25.government which increasingly brings forward ill thought out ideas which
:35:26. > :35:29.it has not planned in advance, not without consultation, and is forced
:35:30. > :35:35.into U-turns. There has been a series of them. That is why you need
:35:36. > :35:43.a second chamber, to do proper scrutiny. I am the greatest defender
:35:44. > :35:48.of the second chamber and indeed, a Conservative Party that fully
:35:49. > :35:53.understands the central tenets of the Constitution, the balance
:35:54. > :35:59.between the houses, but what we've seen in the last 12 months, and
:36:00. > :36:01.remember, this is the first 12 months of a new conservative
:36:02. > :36:08.administration, people who were elected to government, scarcely one
:36:09. > :36:13.year ago, and what we've seen in the House of Lords are blocking tactics,
:36:14. > :36:18.using vetoes rather than working with the House of Commons in order
:36:19. > :36:24.to improve that legislation which you rightly criticise. Are you a
:36:25. > :36:27.supporter of the way that governments have bloated the House
:36:28. > :36:34.of Lords? There are over 800 active peers. The US Senate needs 100 and
:36:35. > :36:42.it has real power. You've not got much power and those over 800 of
:36:43. > :36:46.you. Is that sensible? When Mr Blair and his friends throughout the
:36:47. > :36:50.hereditary peers in the 1990s I did argue that there was an inevitable
:36:51. > :36:54.consequence that prime ministers would try to increase their own
:36:55. > :37:04.numbers in the house. What's interesting about Mr Cameron is he
:37:05. > :37:11.has created far more Labour peers. Wide of the need to be 800 of you?
:37:12. > :37:19.You don't. -- why does there need to be 800. But those who want to reduce
:37:20. > :37:23.it to 500 should say how they plan to do that. I would prefer either
:37:24. > :37:26.people to be involved in the decision and they should be directly
:37:27. > :37:30.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:31. > :37:32.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:37:33. > :37:44.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.
:37:45. > :37:47.Any expectations of a quiet week at Stormont after the election
:37:48. > :37:50.were quashed on Thursday as the Ulster Unionists
:37:51. > :37:54.After losing his seat, the independent unionist
:37:55. > :37:56.John McCallister wasn't there to witness the development
:37:57. > :38:00.but his legacy lives on as the man behind the Opposition Bill.
:38:01. > :38:03.And the face of Stormont is changing in another important way.
:38:04. > :38:07.The election returned our highest number of female MLAs yet and I'll
:38:08. > :38:11.And with me throughout with their thoughts Newton Emerson
:38:12. > :38:23.The will they, won't they questions of the pre-election period were well
:38:24. > :38:27.We don't yet have a government but we do have an opposition.
:38:28. > :38:30.The debate around Mike Nesbitt's unilateral move continues.
:38:31. > :38:33.Was it visionary leadership or mere grand-standing?
:38:34. > :38:36.In the meantime, Stormont-watchers are beginning to think
:38:37. > :38:39.through what opposition will actually look like.
:38:40. > :38:42.John McCallister was the architect of the bill that made it possible,
:38:43. > :38:44.and the independent MLA Claire Sugden has welcomed
:38:45. > :38:57.Your boys welcome to the programme. There's a huge irony, when you
:38:58. > :39:02.challenge Mike Nesbitt for the leadership of the UUP, used it on a
:39:03. > :39:06.platform of going to opposition. You ask anyone, your parting gift this
:39:07. > :39:09.entry was your private members bill and opposition which he has taken
:39:10. > :39:20.advantage of and you're not there to be part of it. The bit me has always
:39:21. > :39:24.been about creating an opposition, and opposition holds a government to
:39:25. > :39:28.account. It also puts enormous pressure on those in government to
:39:29. > :39:33.actually govern and we have to move away from this idea of endless
:39:34. > :39:38.government by peace process negotiation with everyone, if you
:39:39. > :39:42.are elected to government I congratulate the DUP and Sinn Fein,
:39:43. > :39:50.they got their man they restored as before, only one seat down, and the
:39:51. > :39:55.UUP it was sensible to go into opposition. There is a
:39:56. > :39:59.responsibility there to do that so I'd encountered as grandstanding
:40:00. > :40:03.because in UK politics Leader of the Opposition is known as the worst job
:40:04. > :40:08.in politics, it is tough going holding a government to account with
:40:09. > :40:12.all of the powers and trappings of government and actually coming up
:40:13. > :40:19.and looking like a good thing at the next election. You agree? Of course.
:40:20. > :40:23.Whatever his reasons for doing it with the fact that we now have an
:40:24. > :40:27.opportunity for the within the assembly and that can only be a good
:40:28. > :40:30.thing. The biggest problem with our politics for so long as we had one
:40:31. > :40:34.holding the government to account and now we do. I am excited about it
:40:35. > :40:40.but I do think moving forward the Ulster Unionists have the data in a
:40:41. > :40:42.correct way, and too many occasions they have made sweeping statements.
:40:43. > :40:48.They came at the government last year, I'm not sure why. You didn't
:40:49. > :40:52.follow through on what they could have done in providing an unofficial
:40:53. > :40:55.opposition last year so now they have the opportunity to be an
:40:56. > :40:58.official opposition many to do it right. The Alliance Party can be
:40:59. > :41:04.part of the government is it fills the role of department of justice
:41:05. > :41:09.and across community votes but it copy but the opposition. You as an
:41:10. > :41:11.independent could be invited to be the justice minister but you
:41:12. > :41:16.wouldn't be allowed to be in the opposition. But odd. When John
:41:17. > :41:21.presented his bill it was taken apart by the two main parties,
:41:22. > :41:27.turkeys voting for Christmas, we are where we are and in this next
:41:28. > :41:29.mandate we can move towards making a stronger so cannot democracy that
:41:30. > :41:35.looks like other parts of the world. How do you think the relationship
:41:36. > :41:38.will work between the Ulster Unionists, the SDLP, I don't know if
:41:39. > :41:42.you have a view on whether it should stay or not and the smaller groups
:41:43. > :41:47.and independence, could there be a bigger opposition of voice alongside
:41:48. > :41:56.the official opposition? I think there should be. Your point and the
:41:57. > :42:00.Alliance Party, they wanted to see and push for technical groups,
:42:01. > :42:05.Claire 's point that that might evolve if Alliance were to forego
:42:06. > :42:12.the justice department, you would then have about 14 MLAs that would
:42:13. > :42:18.be very strong and say we should have a technical group. Might view
:42:19. > :42:21.on the SDLP as I think in the three assembly elections I've been a
:42:22. > :42:28.candidate they gone from 16 seats to 14 to 12, they came within 89 votes
:42:29. > :42:33.of being out of the process effectively in west Belfast. You
:42:34. > :42:38.cannot continue with that and be in the opposition from within the
:42:39. > :42:44.government. Your vote going down. Without looking insane, hang on,
:42:45. > :42:48.should we be outside and be a proper opposition and work in the Ulster
:42:49. > :42:55.Unionists? -- without looking outside. I take the point that the
:42:56. > :43:00.UUP, there is a responsible to the do it properly, not just opposition
:43:01. > :43:04.for opposition sake. This has to be constructive opposition, real
:43:05. > :43:07.meaningful politics coming up with alternative identities and that's a
:43:08. > :43:13.long grind but it also puts pressure on the government to deliver and
:43:14. > :43:21.step up to the plate. How much do you think the seating arrangements
:43:22. > :43:26.matter? We have a system where parties from the two extremes of the
:43:27. > :43:29.spectrum have to work together but people are familiar with the
:43:30. > :43:31.adversarial style where the government and the opposition face
:43:32. > :43:37.each other across the chamber, we don't have that honour should we
:43:38. > :43:40.have that? Yes, because we are in a power-sharing arrangement and that
:43:41. > :43:42.they does become the case of the Sinn Fein and DUP will become the
:43:43. > :43:48.government than they have to present that to the public. I can say that
:43:49. > :43:56.when and not standing in front of the public, but they should be. You
:43:57. > :44:00.want them sitting together and facing the opposition? You have to
:44:01. > :44:04.know Sinn Fein and the DUP don't want the optics. They do it behind
:44:05. > :44:09.closed doors, why can't they be transparent? Ring it on. I think we
:44:10. > :44:13.need to start moving towards normal politics and I think this is the
:44:14. > :44:18.first that in doing that so I'm excited for the next five years as
:44:19. > :44:21.long as people do the job right. You can't influence where people sit any
:44:22. > :44:28.more and I'm not sure how much influence you had had but do you
:44:29. > :44:32.think the optics that matter? I don't get a red herring. It's one of
:44:33. > :44:37.the things I was going to put on the bill and I felt was a battle that I
:44:38. > :44:45.didn't need to take on. Identity will happen this term but I think
:44:46. > :44:48.the point about it helps it look like a cohesive government around
:44:49. > :44:52.issues like collective responsibility and things like that,
:44:53. > :44:59.that's where we need to get to. We've had this too long. Without
:45:00. > :45:02.people almost -- we've had people in the DUP saying we're not ready
:45:03. > :45:07.government with Sinn Fein and vice versa. Those seating arrangements
:45:08. > :45:13.suit the narratives that each party want to put out but what you need is
:45:14. > :45:17.a cohesive and coherent government. How difficult you think you were
:45:18. > :45:20.before Sinn Fein and the DUP to be the two parties in the government
:45:21. > :45:28.working together without the cover of any of this? Claire made the
:45:29. > :45:34.point that they do it behind closed doors, not always liking the optics,
:45:35. > :45:37.but do you think there would be people who be uncomfortable about
:45:38. > :45:41.just those two parties from the absolute opposite ends of the
:45:42. > :45:47.spectrum having to work together? That's what the people have voted
:45:48. > :45:54.for. We have to remember that we had no election ten days ago, that's
:45:55. > :46:03.what we got elected as our government. Those two big parties.
:46:04. > :46:08.Having the fig leaves might be a big comfort to them but it's time, it
:46:09. > :46:14.lets off the hook of to deliver, oh, it's all terribly difficult. The
:46:15. > :46:17.other problem in speaking and dealing with both Sinn Fein and the
:46:18. > :46:20.DUP journey progression of my opposition bill became clear that
:46:21. > :46:29.there was many incidents that the big parties agreed and then they had
:46:30. > :46:31.problems of the smaller parties, keeping confidentiality around
:46:32. > :46:37.executive decisions or discussions, it caused problems. I think in some
:46:38. > :46:40.regards while there be a nervousness at the start, I think it makes it
:46:41. > :46:45.easier for smaller government partners. You talked about the
:46:46. > :46:49.difficulties they could before the Sinn Fein and DUP working together
:46:50. > :46:52.closing government, what about the smaller groups and smaller parties?
:46:53. > :46:59.How do you think you get on with them? I think we're there on merit.
:47:00. > :47:04.When not in competition so we're quite keen to work together from the
:47:05. > :47:08.point of view of getting delivery. As I said, people say what impact
:47:09. > :47:12.any have on as an independent, I forget an opportunity because big
:47:13. > :47:16.parties and threatened by me and as an open door. Hopefully that will
:47:17. > :47:18.happen in the next five. We will see.
:47:19. > :47:29.Let's find out what my guests make of what we've just heard.
:47:30. > :47:37.When you surprised of Mike Nesbitt is the opposition? It's deftly not
:47:38. > :47:44.what he was planning but the electoral recovery plot failed to
:47:45. > :47:49.happen. You can over analyse the strategy. It's simply a case of
:47:50. > :47:53.throwing everything in the air and seeing where it lands. It's
:47:54. > :47:58.disruptive tactics to try and change the playing field and see if he's
:47:59. > :48:02.got more options coming out of that. There's no long-term plan for this.
:48:03. > :48:08.Due think it is a system which can work as it is currently shaping? I
:48:09. > :48:12.think that in terms of what this has been said, there's an element of
:48:13. > :48:21.truth that, Mike Nesbitt and making this announcement about going into
:48:22. > :48:24.this opposition and saying into battle, his unlike Corporal Jones
:48:25. > :48:29.from that army. There's no substance. Opposition can work and
:48:30. > :48:35.as a mechanism there to make it work and as the architect of it said, if
:48:36. > :48:38.he wants to make it work, he need to be making a call to John McAllister
:48:39. > :48:43.and bring him into the fold and saying we need help. Last year
:48:44. > :48:47.nobody really noticed when the Ulster Unionist Party left the
:48:48. > :48:50.executive. It didn't affect how business was done at the assembly.
:48:51. > :48:53.If they going to make a proper opposition and the need to have a
:48:54. > :48:57.strategy for how that will happen. Right now when not seeing that. I
:48:58. > :49:01.don't think John was callous that will be sitting by the phone
:49:02. > :49:09.expecting that call. What about the STL P? You think there is pressure
:49:10. > :49:15.on Mr Wood to form part of that opposition? All three of the smaller
:49:16. > :49:19.parties are split on the middle each over this issue. Our move as
:49:20. > :49:26.dramatic as what has happened is going to do exacerbate the debate.
:49:27. > :49:32.It puts more pressure on the leader and it could easily be what tipped
:49:33. > :49:36.the balance. He can't appear to be following Nesbitt 's lead so you'll
:49:37. > :49:39.have to wait until the last minute to make a decision and claim it's
:49:40. > :49:43.based on the programme for government. Very tricky one for
:49:44. > :49:49.Alliance because as we are saying Alliance can be a government but
:49:50. > :49:52.can't be in opposition. It has eight seats, you need nine to be part of
:49:53. > :49:57.the opposition, so can't clear the hurdle. It can't but let's remove
:49:58. > :50:03.that from the equation because I don't think there's anyone in any of
:50:04. > :50:06.the political parties who believes any of the four other parties can
:50:07. > :50:10.take the Justice ministry at this point in time. It is still too
:50:11. > :50:14.contentious and fraught. Alliance needs to be there at this point.
:50:15. > :50:16.We'll talk to you later. Thank you. Let's have a quick look back
:50:17. > :50:32.at the political week in 60 seconds The political class of 2016 arrived
:50:33. > :50:38.at work fresh from election success. With the DUP as the largest party.
:50:39. > :50:42.We're delighted to be back with the team. Good to have my 38 members
:50:43. > :50:47.here. Discussions of the programme the government began and there were
:50:48. > :50:52.some unhappiness with what was on offer. We're very far off Acer
:50:53. > :50:59.stanch a programme for government. Then we had that moment when Mike
:51:00. > :51:01.Nesbitt made headlines. The Ulster Unionist group will has decided
:51:02. > :51:05.unanimously to form the first official opposition of this Northern
:51:06. > :51:13.Ireland assembly. Let battle commence. I think that rather than
:51:14. > :51:16.being seen as leadership, ill be seen as a lack of leadership. Alex
:51:17. > :51:26.Kane said he would sing at Stormont in address if someone was elected so
:51:27. > :51:32.it was time to stand and deliver. I am what I am!
:51:33. > :51:35.Alex Kane, a born exhibitionist if ever there was one,
:51:36. > :51:38.and it gives a new twist to the old question is the image
:51:39. > :51:41.of a Stormont full of men in grey suits slowly changing?
:51:42. > :51:44.We now have 30 women gracing the blue benches and I'm joined
:51:45. > :51:48.by two of the newest recruits, Alliance's Paula Bradshaw,
:51:49. > :51:50.who took a seat in South Belfast, and Linda Dillon from Sinn Fein,
:51:51. > :51:53.who won the seat vacated by Martin McGuinness in Mid-Ulster.
:51:54. > :52:01.30 women were returned out of 108, that's a third up on five years ago.
:52:02. > :52:12.Absolutely. I think that I was delighted to say we brought three
:52:13. > :52:16.new candidates through and all of them women so I think all the
:52:17. > :52:21.political parties increase the representation. What we're seeing
:52:22. > :52:23.here effectively is an organic change in society in Northern
:52:24. > :52:27.Ireland. We are the second generation of women who've been in
:52:28. > :52:31.power in the is in 70s and I think we need to continue to nurture women
:52:32. > :52:35.in all walks of life so we can bring them through in terms front line
:52:36. > :52:40.politics. But then know what you make of the statistics, 30 out of
:52:41. > :52:45.108. It up on five years ago but it still under a third, 27%, a third
:52:46. > :52:52.isn't brilliant. What were aiming for is 50%. It's far from good
:52:53. > :52:56.enough. It is no improvement, it's not anywhere near where we need to
:52:57. > :53:01.be. I have launched a bill already in terms of quotas for local
:53:02. > :53:11.councils and I think that's where you get a experience. Boss quotas
:53:12. > :53:16.cannot work in isolation, we do need them. It's not something that I
:53:17. > :53:21.would have been in favour, took a long time to convince me within the
:53:22. > :53:25.party because we already have that stands on the quotas and 30% of the
:53:26. > :53:30.candidates in any winnable seat should be women. But I feel that
:53:31. > :53:33.unfortunately it's needed but it certainly is not good work in
:53:34. > :53:38.isolation and it's something I will raise all the time whenever I was in
:53:39. > :53:43.the council in Mid Ulster, the minute the way it is run in the
:53:44. > :53:46.rural councils it's an friendly in terms of family time because all of
:53:47. > :53:52.the meetings on the evenings. I understand that is because a lot of
:53:53. > :53:57.the men work full time jobs but my role as a mother and a wife is no
:53:58. > :54:00.less valuable than theirs. Sue your legislation would be for quotas
:54:01. > :54:04.council level. Should there be quotas forced on in future? That's
:54:05. > :54:11.an excepted matters so I can't influence that. If you get a dry the
:54:12. > :54:14.local government at that point then that will lead into the assembly
:54:15. > :54:19.because we need to now be telling parties that you need to go out and
:54:20. > :54:21.support those young capable women that in your community that could be
:54:22. > :54:25.members of your party, represent your part in the future in politics
:54:26. > :54:33.and that's only to be going. You're not a fan of quotas? We have looked
:54:34. > :54:36.at them in the Alliance Party but we do that is necessary. I would like
:54:37. > :54:39.to be disrespectful to those women who've come through in this round on
:54:40. > :54:47.a quota system but we are naturally a very gender balance party that is
:54:48. > :54:55.shown in selection process. Women are underrepresented the sewer LGBT
:54:56. > :55:02.members, young people, in many ways -- so are LGBT members. We have a
:55:03. > :55:06.Democratic party council and that the mechanism through which we
:55:07. > :55:10.define our policy positions and we ensure that there are
:55:11. > :55:15.representatives from the LGBT group, young people and Alliance women to
:55:16. > :55:20.give them a support mechanism through which they can debate public
:55:21. > :55:22.policies so internally we are very supportive of affirmative action and
:55:23. > :55:29.making sure women's voices are heard but in terms of putting forward to
:55:30. > :55:31.the electorate they forced slate of candidates that has been
:55:32. > :55:37.orchestrated I don't think the letter at reward parties were doing
:55:38. > :55:42.that. How significant you think it is that we now have a female First
:55:43. > :55:49.Minister? You might not like her politics but you Myra from making it
:55:50. > :55:52.to the top of the greasy pole? I think it's important we have women
:55:53. > :55:58.in leading roles in society. Whatever level of society that may
:55:59. > :56:06.be, politics, business or private or public sector, it's important to see
:56:07. > :56:10.the women can do it. In terms of forts gender quotas, I don't agree
:56:11. > :56:16.because I think we knew needed. Our ruling body is 50-50 and the reason
:56:17. > :56:20.for that is if we don't have women in decision-making roles the right
:56:21. > :56:24.decisions for women will not be made. That has been shown and borne
:56:25. > :56:31.out even in the local government changes. There should have been a
:56:32. > :56:34.lot of change in terms of making it more family friendly, it didn't
:56:35. > :56:37.happen because women were not listen to and women were not listen to
:56:38. > :56:42.because there weren't enough of them in the room. The point about LGBT
:56:43. > :56:46.candidates, young candidates, if you focus simply on women, that's fine
:56:47. > :56:52.but there are all kinds of other wine or the groups which also want,
:56:53. > :56:55.demand and deserve equal representation. I accept that and we
:56:56. > :56:59.also have new nationals with our communities and they need to be
:57:00. > :57:04.represented in the future. All of that needs to be looked at. This is
:57:05. > :57:06.only one part of it but I do believe that women make decisions but if
:57:07. > :57:10.they're not in decision-making roles they won't get the make any
:57:11. > :57:16.decisions. Women put off by long days and they sitting is any more
:57:17. > :57:21.than men are? There's two part of that, we have women in senior
:57:22. > :57:23.positions in the community, charities, women have a strong
:57:24. > :57:27.influence in terms of policy development within the government
:57:28. > :57:32.and in terms of service provision, so they are there. That's another
:57:33. > :57:34.issue in Northern Ireland and we experience it in the Alliance Party,
:57:35. > :57:40.there's still a threat from polymer truths. We still get the bullets and
:57:41. > :57:45.oppose, death threats, the commentary on social media. It's not
:57:46. > :57:48.for everybody to put themselves forward so we need to find ways to
:57:49. > :57:51.give women a voice even if they don't want to go into elective
:57:52. > :57:54.politics. When you sit someone like that, whenever you hear Paula talk
:57:55. > :57:58.about those issues you can understand people are hoping he is
:57:59. > :58:03.the last thing they want to do. What would you into political life? I
:58:04. > :58:07.think it is difficult but I have been a Republican activist all my
:58:08. > :58:11.life since I was a teenager and it's not something I aspired to, I never
:58:12. > :58:15.wanted to be in the assembly or the council, but thankfully I did and I
:58:16. > :58:19.had people who supported me and those were both men and women within
:58:20. > :58:23.my party but I do think that seeing strong women in leadership roles in
:58:24. > :58:28.my own party showed me that that was something that was possible. Getting
:58:29. > :58:34.that support, having people tell you you can do this, it was a big part
:58:35. > :58:38.of it. I'm a Republican activist of the heart and that's where it came
:58:39. > :58:41.from. You have been involved in active politics before and you try
:58:42. > :58:51.to get into the assembly a number of times. I've never stood for December
:58:52. > :58:55.before. Westminster. And a counsellor. Has lived up to
:58:56. > :59:00.expectations instalments so far? It was a busy week. Were thrown
:59:01. > :59:07.straight into it but we hit the ground running and I've enjoyed it
:59:08. > :59:10.so far. It seems so real but the staff at this and we have been
:59:11. > :59:11.supportive so I'm looking forward to it. Interesting to hear your
:59:12. > :59:13.thoughts. Thank you. Just time for a final chat
:59:14. > :59:16.with Patricia and Newton. Will the increased number of female
:59:17. > :59:32.MLAs make a difference I think it will. Women have a
:59:33. > :59:36.different management style, a different leadership style, there
:59:37. > :59:42.tends to be much more inclusive, more participatory. I don't know the
:59:43. > :59:47.quotas work, if you look at the experience in the dialler elections
:59:48. > :59:51.earlier this year. Quotas were divisive amongst parties and between
:59:52. > :59:58.them. It's all legal challenges and it ended with 22% female TDs so...
:59:59. > :00:02.Quotas or no quotas? There is a philosophical difference on this
:00:03. > :00:07.between unionists and nationalists, a left right on cultural difference,
:00:08. > :00:11.it's not universal. You will see that through Arlene Foster coming to
:00:12. > :00:15.the fore. She engineers in general are proud of the fact that she has
:00:16. > :00:20.made it as a woman without what they've perceived to be special
:00:21. > :00:24.favours or tokenism and that will undermine and not in four quotas in
:00:25. > :00:27.the assembly. The increased representation for women is good but
:00:28. > :00:32.is not worried needs to be. If you look at the fact that Scottish
:00:33. > :00:34.Parliament has 35%, we have a long way to go in the assembly. Thank
:00:35. > :00:35.you. coming. Great to see you both. Back
:00:36. > :00:50.to you. Welcome back. Now, have you had enough
:00:51. > :00:52.of the EU referendum? Well there's a Queen's speech
:00:53. > :00:54.next week in which we're promised Her Majesty will be talking
:00:55. > :00:57.about something other than Europe. When Her Majesty visits
:00:58. > :01:01.Parliament on Wednesday, front and centre in her speech
:01:02. > :01:05.will be measures for curbing extremism, including banning hate
:01:06. > :01:07.speakers from working with children And David Cameron will push forward
:01:08. > :01:14.with Conservative plans for the British Bill of Rights,
:01:15. > :01:21.in an attempt to assert the supremacy of UK courts
:01:22. > :01:24.in the run-up to the EU referendum. The Prime Minister will also press
:01:25. > :01:27.ahead with reforms to the adoption system, to speed up the placement
:01:28. > :01:30.of children with permanent families. New rules will also be brought
:01:31. > :01:35.in to make Britain a world leader in the development of driverless
:01:36. > :01:38.cars, and the fishing port of Newquay may be about to become
:01:39. > :01:41.the UK's first spaceport. It is one of eight sites
:01:42. > :01:45.the Government will be looking at. And finally, schools in England
:01:46. > :01:47.will be on the Queen's Along with the Government's
:01:48. > :01:55.watered-down plans for academies, ministers will also now be
:01:56. > :01:57.scrambling to work out new rules to stop parents
:01:58. > :02:00.taking their children out of school for family holidays during term
:02:01. > :02:11.time, following the High I don't get the impression there is
:02:12. > :02:17.much to detract from the referendum campaign. Who knows whether any of
:02:18. > :02:21.it will happen? You were just talking about the Lords and the
:02:22. > :02:26.number of defeats, this has been a very torrid legislative session for
:02:27. > :02:31.the government. You've had situations where the whips don't
:02:32. > :02:34.seem to know what is going on. The Sunday trading Bill, it seemed like
:02:35. > :02:40.the government did not realise they had not got the votes locked down.
:02:41. > :02:47.Nobody knows who will be pro Minister after June the 23rd. Who
:02:48. > :02:51.will be driving this legislation through? -- who will be Prime
:02:52. > :02:59.Minister. Theresa May is a complicated opinion on the EU, she
:03:00. > :03:05.wants to leave the EC HR but stay part of the EU. It is not there to
:03:06. > :03:11.be exciting, it is to prove the government is doing something. To
:03:12. > :03:16.the extent that there is any theme to what he announces, we need to go
:03:17. > :03:21.back to 2005, David Cameron said he wants sunshine to win the day, the
:03:22. > :03:28.wants his party to stop banging on about Europe and to be a social
:03:29. > :03:34.reformer. There is a mention of reforming adoption systems, it is
:03:35. > :03:38.like the big society has been wrenched back and David Cameron
:03:39. > :03:43.wants people to think about his legacy as different from the one
:03:44. > :03:55.nation Tory. Would be too much of an exaggeration to say that the
:03:56. > :03:59.government is running the Remain campaign and is too busy doing that?
:04:00. > :04:05.I don't think that it's an exaggeration at all. This speech is
:04:06. > :04:09.going through the motions, I don't think it is something they need to
:04:10. > :04:20.do. I don't think anyone will get terribly excited about it. This
:04:21. > :04:23.British bill of rights, I had to look it up to see if it is the same
:04:24. > :04:31.thing he has been talking about since opposition. But unless you
:04:32. > :04:35.come out of the European Court, it does not make any difference. You
:04:36. > :04:42.can always go to Strasberg. What was your take from Iain Duncan Smith.
:04:43. > :04:48.He's an interesting media performer but I'm not sure he has appeal
:04:49. > :04:52.beyond the base. The swing voter everybody is trying to target tends
:04:53. > :04:59.to be an older northern man, classic Labour voter. What figures can speak
:05:00. > :05:02.to those kind of people? I think all politicians have got a problem. Some
:05:03. > :05:11.pollsters said, who is the figure who could convince people? They
:05:12. > :05:19.said, the guy from money supermarket. The Governor of the
:05:20. > :05:26.Bank of England is the closest you get in the political sphere. This is
:05:27. > :05:32.a real problem for the Leave campaign, they don't have enough
:05:33. > :05:39.people who preach beyond the converted. I was at the premiere of
:05:40. > :05:42.Brexit The Movie. I felt that was a missed opportunity. So many
:05:43. > :05:47.commentators were wheeled out who were over the age of 50, the
:05:48. > :05:51.audience loved it but will it appeal beyond? I worry about that.
:05:52. > :05:56.Commentators over the age of 50 will never catch on. What did you take of
:05:57. > :06:02.it? There was a John Major called and Iain Duncan Smith winced with
:06:03. > :06:10.fury. You realised this Tory civil war, the wounds were first fleshed
:06:11. > :06:16.out 30 years ago. This stuff goes deep. Clearly immigration is his
:06:17. > :06:22.strongest card and the idea that it is a conspiracy between these people
:06:23. > :06:27.to keep us in, that is going to be their strongest card. That and
:06:28. > :06:33.immigration. He did effectively call for the resignation of Mark Carney.
:06:34. > :06:36.Now the rhetorical heat has been turned up on both sides
:06:37. > :06:39.Let's just compare David Cameron's language in November last year
:06:40. > :06:43.Some people seem to say that really Britain couldn't survive,
:06:44. > :06:48.couldn't do OK outside the European Union.
:06:49. > :06:54.Let's be frank, Britain is an amazing country.
:06:55. > :06:56.We've got the fifth biggest economy in the world, we are
:06:57. > :07:03.If we vote to leave on the 23rd of June, we will be
:07:04. > :07:08.We will be voting for fewer jobs, we will be voting for lower growth.
:07:09. > :07:21.We will be voting potentially for a recession.
:07:22. > :07:29.He has dined out on the Euro-sceptic shilling for all these years and it
:07:30. > :07:35.contrasts hugely with what he is saying no. It was bound to come back
:07:36. > :07:38.and haunt her. It is remarkable the extent to which David Cameron has
:07:39. > :07:45.been radicalised by his own campaign. Being in number ten is
:07:46. > :07:53.like being in a cult. He has lost everything about his heritage. He is
:07:54. > :07:57.fundamentally Euro-sceptic. Now we hear somebody banging the drum as if
:07:58. > :08:05.Armageddon is happening if we vote out. It is bizarre. It is a problem,
:08:06. > :08:12.what is the true David Cameron? Is it the one that we had only last
:08:13. > :08:17.November? We should go back into the archives further, to see what he is
:08:18. > :08:23.saying then,. But is it the one who says if we leave there will be armed
:08:24. > :08:29.conflict? The issue for me, if you believe this, why would you risk
:08:30. > :08:33.armed conflict for minor changes to our welfare balance? There is a
:08:34. > :08:37.really interesting difference between him and Theresa May. She
:08:38. > :08:45.said the sky will not fall in but in a dispassionate way, on balance, I
:08:46. > :08:50.want us to remain in. That is realistic. Jeremy Corbyn has handled
:08:51. > :08:53.this better than a it Cameron. That is another politician who is
:08:54. > :08:56.naturally Euro-sceptic comedy follows the left-wing line that
:08:57. > :09:02.there is a democratic deficit, corporate interests. When he is
:09:03. > :09:06.asked about it he gives an answer as he did yesterday that is about
:09:07. > :09:12.social protections and workers and sounds quite convincing. What do you
:09:13. > :09:18.make of it? When David Cameron and owns the referendum it was born of
:09:19. > :09:25.panic. The cause we have short-term culture in politics, it was brought
:09:26. > :09:28.about by the rise of Ukip, Nigel Farage was doing fantastically well.
:09:29. > :09:35.Little did they know that they would only get one MP and it has backfired
:09:36. > :09:41.massively. If this was going to risk Armageddon it was stupid and
:09:42. > :09:45.irrational of the Prime Minister. I wanted to ask you about the polls
:09:46. > :09:53.but we've not got time. By next week, maybe when it has sunk in, so
:09:54. > :09:55.far we have not seen any difference in the polls.
:09:56. > :09:58.Now, viewers in the North West will have just seen Conservative MP
:09:59. > :10:00.for Cheadle Mary Robinson challenged about whether expenses
:10:01. > :10:02.for volunteers on a Conservative election Battle Bus in the run-up
:10:03. > :10:04.to last year's general election should have been charged
:10:05. > :10:07.to her local campaign or the national party.
:10:08. > :10:12.The Conservative Party are under investigation for failing
:10:13. > :10:14.to declare these expenses - something they put down
:10:15. > :10:20.to an administrative error - but Ms Robinson insisted
:10:21. > :10:26.The party was quite clear to us locally that it would be included
:10:27. > :10:29.in the national spend and that was what we relied on,
:10:30. > :10:33.and from my point of view it was never going to be a national
:10:34. > :10:37.The national party told you this was going to be a national expense?
:10:38. > :10:40.The national party was clear that it was part of the national expense.
:10:41. > :10:48.It is not going away. It is really important. Journalists come under a
:10:49. > :10:53.lot of flak. This is a very difficult story to report. It is
:10:54. > :10:58.about minor details, accounting. This has been kept alive entirely by
:10:59. > :11:04.journalists. Particularly Michael Crick on Channel 4 News. Exactly.
:11:05. > :11:08.Things come out and it is hard to keep them down. People sitting at
:11:09. > :11:14.home thinking journalism is all terrible, for once people will think
:11:15. > :11:20.happier. Think of the fury of the Labour moderates, this is an open
:11:21. > :11:25.goal, a well-organised Labour Party, strong leadership, it might be
:11:26. > :11:30.exposed a bit, but they should exploit this. They have got complete
:11:31. > :11:33.silence. So far you've got 11 police forces investigating the
:11:34. > :11:40.Conservative Party about fraud and not a pipsqueak. The reason there
:11:41. > :11:44.are so quiet is because they are up to their necks in it as well. That
:11:45. > :11:49.is the difficulty, that it has been very difficult for broadcasters to
:11:50. > :11:53.get MPs on from other parties because they are all concerned that
:11:54. > :11:58.they have too much to hide. When I asked Alan Johnston about it, he did
:11:59. > :12:05.not know anything about it. Michael Portillo did not know about it
:12:06. > :12:13.either. I found that quite remarkable. It is a hard story to
:12:14. > :12:18.digests. What is the one sentence explanation for that? When there is
:12:19. > :12:24.all this blunder about the EU, it is crowding everything out. The money
:12:25. > :12:28.was charged to the national campaign which was under the legal limit. It
:12:29. > :12:31.should have been charged to the local campaigns but that would have
:12:32. > :12:35.put it over the legal limit and that is where the criminal penalties are.
:12:36. > :12:43.This is a big story about the way elections are funded, which is
:12:44. > :12:48.ridiculous. As soon as somebody gets into government they lose interest
:12:49. > :12:52.in it. You need to cover American elections if you think that is
:12:53. > :12:59.ridiculous. I'm serious, the evidence we have is about the
:13:00. > :13:03.Conservatives, how serious? I think they will get away with it. I don't
:13:04. > :13:09.think the Labour Party is well placed to exploit it. The problem is
:13:10. > :13:13.it will solidify and consolidate a feeling lots of people have that
:13:14. > :13:20.politicians are a bunch of crooks, most of them are not. This certainly
:13:21. > :13:27.stinks. We shall see. The police investigations are going on. That is
:13:28. > :13:33.it for today. Thank you to all of my guests. I will be back at the same
:13:34. > :13:38.time next week here on BBC One. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow. If
:13:39. > :14:08.it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.
:14:09. > :14:13.The referendum on whether we should remain within the European Union