:00:38. > :00:40.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:44.With Cabinet divisions over Brexit, spending and leadership spilling
:00:45. > :00:47.onto the front pages, we'll be talking to international
:00:48. > :00:48.trade secretary Liam Fox about Britain's future
:00:49. > :00:56.Jeremy Corbyn's been to Brussels to set out
:00:57. > :00:59.Labour's vision for Brexit - but with the party suffering its own
:01:00. > :01:01.divisions on Europe, are they being entirely clear
:01:02. > :01:06.And as Ukip searches for another leader, will taking an even more
:01:07. > :01:08.hard-line stance on Islam make the party relevant again,
:01:09. > :01:16.If Ukip goes down the route of being a party that is anti
:01:17. > :01:24.the religion of Islam, frankly it's finished.
:01:25. > :01:28.The First Ministers of Scotland and Wales met
:01:29. > :01:31.Michel Barnier this week - so is Northern Ireland missing out
:01:32. > :01:43.when it comes to influencing the Brexit negotiations?
:01:44. > :01:47.Yes, all of that to come, and I'm joined for all of it
:01:48. > :01:49.by three journalists whose every word is as closely followed
:01:50. > :01:52.And much like the Liberal Democrat leadership contest, they've
:01:53. > :01:57.won their place on the panel because no-one else wanted the job.
:01:58. > :02:07.It's Steve Richards, Isabel Oakeshott and Tom Newton Dunn.
:02:08. > :02:10.First today, for a supposedly private gathering, the meeting
:02:11. > :02:12.of the Cabinet on Tuesday has generated rather a lot of headlines,
:02:13. > :02:14.most of them featuring Chancellor Philip Hammond.
:02:15. > :02:19.Yesterday there were disputed claims in the Sun over what he may or may
:02:20. > :02:22.not have said about women driving trains, and today the Sunday Times
:02:23. > :02:27.says colleagues picked him up for describing public sector workers
:02:28. > :02:29.as overpaid, although some dispute that version of events.
:02:30. > :02:32.Well, Mr Hammond was on the Andrew Marr Show this morning,
:02:33. > :02:34.and he took the unusual step of suggesting that the source
:02:35. > :02:40.of the stories may be people unhappy at his position over Brexit.
:02:41. > :02:43.If you want my opinion, some of the noise is generated by people
:02:44. > :02:46.who are not happy with the agenda that I have,
:02:47. > :02:55.tried to advance of ensuring that we achieve a Brexit
:02:56. > :02:59.which is focused on protecting our economy, protecting
:03:00. > :03:02.our jobs, and making sure we can have continued rising living
:03:03. > :03:15.So what do you make of that, Isabel? The Chancellor thinks he's being
:03:16. > :03:19.undermined by Cabinet colleagues who don't trust him on Brexit. That's
:03:20. > :03:27.quite remarkable to say that in public. I also think it's completely
:03:28. > :03:33.true. That's the least controversial part of it! The briefing is his
:03:34. > :03:36.position on Brexit and also frustration on his position over
:03:37. > :03:41.public sector pay then it is over any kind of leadership manoeuvrings.
:03:42. > :03:47.We saw on the Andrew Marr Show that he was doubling down on the issue of
:03:48. > :03:51.public sector pay rises. He didn't categorically deny using the words
:03:52. > :03:57.of overpaid, in fact he reiterated the fact he sees them as whether
:03:58. > :04:01.they are overpaid or not so I believe he did use that phrase but
:04:02. > :04:06.clearly he's got the tone wrong and I don't think he's done himself any
:04:07. > :04:14.favours. He's a pretty wealthy man himself, multimillionaire. He must
:04:15. > :04:20.have some kind of political deafness if he thinks it's OK for someone in
:04:21. > :04:25.his position to say, in a number of cases, lowly paid public sector
:04:26. > :04:28.workers are overpaid? I think he is politically deaf, and not
:04:29. > :04:40.emotionally intelligent. He has a great head for figures but very poor
:04:41. > :04:54.at expressing himself. It was a crass remark over women train
:04:55. > :04:58.drivers. He may be in the right place on some arguments, he's just
:04:59. > :05:02.extremely poor at expressing and that's what gives his opponents the
:05:03. > :05:08.chance to rip his head off. He should have worked out by now that
:05:09. > :05:11.it is clear whatever... Because of the dim munition of Mrs May's
:05:12. > :05:17.authority that whatever you see in the Cabinet now is likely to become
:05:18. > :05:21.public in some shape or form. I think this is the profound lesson of
:05:22. > :05:27.the story, that Cabinet discussion is almost impossible now, and
:05:28. > :05:31.Hammond will go away this summer thinking I can't engage in a proper
:05:32. > :05:35.debate in Cabinet because they will leak it. It sounds as if they were
:05:36. > :05:39.having quite a grown-up conversation about public sector pay with a
:05:40. > :05:42.spending department ministers putting the case for breaking the
:05:43. > :05:47.cup and Hammond saying from the Treasury perspective this is what's
:05:48. > :05:52.happening. Which is what normally happens in Cabinet. He would hope
:05:53. > :05:57.so, not any more. He won't be able to speak his mind in Cabinet because
:05:58. > :06:00.he knows it will be leaked and that is another sign of fragility of this
:06:01. > :06:05.Government, when you cannot have a grown-up discussion about public
:06:06. > :06:08.sector pay even in Cabinet, and that means Cabinet discussion which is
:06:09. > :06:15.urgently needed on Brexit and the rest of it cannot happen in an open
:06:16. > :06:18.way because leaking is happening. Mrs May is not exactly top of the
:06:19. > :06:24.Pops with her own party at the moment but doesn't help her in the
:06:25. > :06:28.fact that her Chancellor is even less top of the Pops? The key thing
:06:29. > :06:33.is that backbenchers don't want a leadership contest at the moment.
:06:34. > :06:37.There are a number of Cabinet ministers or more senior figures who
:06:38. > :06:41.have been around longer who may feel this is their last chance of the
:06:42. > :06:46.leadership and they are urgently wanting it happen now. Backbenchers
:06:47. > :06:53.don't want it, I don't think it will happen. Will it happen? I don't
:06:54. > :07:01.think it will. There are egos clashing in the Cabinet and also
:07:02. > :07:03.many who just want things to stay the way they are, so they will. We
:07:04. > :07:05.will talk more about this leadership matter later in the programme, but
:07:06. > :07:06.let's move on. This week the government passed
:07:07. > :07:08.another Brexit milestone when in introduced the Repeal Bill
:07:09. > :07:10.to the Commons. It will incorporate all EU law
:07:11. > :07:12.into the UK's domestic And although a vote on the Bill
:07:13. > :07:16.isn't due until the autumn, the government still has plenty
:07:17. > :07:19.on its plate when it Brexit secretary David Davis
:07:20. > :07:22.and the EU's negotiator Michel Barnier will sit down
:07:23. > :07:24.for another helping of Brexit negotiations in Brussels
:07:25. > :07:26.this week. Progress now needs to be made
:07:27. > :07:29.on some big questions. They include: the rights of EU
:07:30. > :07:31.citizens living here, How to maintain an open border
:07:32. > :07:38.between Northern Ireland And the size of the financial
:07:39. > :07:43.settlement or so-called divorce bill Previous estimates have included a
:07:44. > :07:50.figure of The British government has put no
:07:51. > :07:56.figure on it, simply saying it This week, Foreign Secretary
:07:57. > :08:02.Boris Johnson said the EU could "go whistle" if it was
:08:03. > :08:04.expecting an extortionate fee Brussels wants this set
:08:05. > :08:17.of negotiations focusing on the principles of separation
:08:18. > :08:20.to be done by the end of the year. They can then turn to the main
:08:21. > :08:23.event, the future trading relationship between the UK
:08:24. > :08:25.and the EU. While the UK remains a member
:08:26. > :08:28.of the EU customs union, it cannot But it can hold advanced discussions
:08:29. > :08:32.with other countries. This week, Australian Prime Minister
:08:33. > :08:35.Malcolm Turnbull said his country was very keen for a deal
:08:36. > :08:40.as quickly as possible. And at the G20 summit, Donald Trump
:08:41. > :08:43.said he wanted to sign a very powerful UK-US trade
:08:44. > :08:48.deal very quickly. But as trade deals normally
:08:49. > :08:51.take years to negotiate, it is unclear when the first ones
:08:52. > :08:54.will be ready for post-Brexit So there will be plenty
:08:55. > :08:59.for both sides to digest, as negotiations continue
:09:00. > :09:07.over the summer. I'm joined
:09:08. > :09:18.by the International Trade Your brief is to agree new free
:09:19. > :09:23.trade deals but you cannot sign any until Brexit is done, can you even
:09:24. > :09:29.begin proper negotiations this side of Brexit or is that illegal too? We
:09:30. > :09:35.cannot negotiate and conclude a trade agreement but we can scope
:09:36. > :09:40.them out. We can get our preparatory work done. We have got ten working
:09:41. > :09:45.groups established across the world with countries from Korea to the
:09:46. > :09:49.United States to Australia. I know scoping the out is fine, you can
:09:50. > :09:54.talk about trade but you cannot begin formal trade negotiations
:09:55. > :09:57.until after Brexit. No, but we have trade working agreements. Free trade
:09:58. > :10:04.agreements are not the only thing that are in the mix as it were, they
:10:05. > :10:07.are what people think about but we also have mutual recognition
:10:08. > :10:13.agreements where we can reduce some of the barriers to trade, the
:10:14. > :10:17.technical barriers, in that process. We have a number of other things
:10:18. > :10:22.going on. We have got to get our trading schedules in Switzerland and
:10:23. > :10:26.Geneva and the World Trade Organisation organised. We then have
:10:27. > :10:30.40 EU free trade agreements and we have to get them ready because if we
:10:31. > :10:35.were not to negotiate those and be ready on the first day of Brexit,
:10:36. > :10:39.there would be huge market disruption. Although you can clearly
:10:40. > :10:45.do a lot of technical work and you can talk till the cows come home,
:10:46. > :10:53.there will be no free trade deals on the shelf ready to sign come March
:10:54. > :11:00.2019 when we are leaving the EU, that's correct isn't it? Technically
:11:01. > :11:06.there will be new ones... There will be no free trade deals ready to say
:11:07. > :11:10.right, we are out, here is a deal I have baked earlier. Not right away
:11:11. > :11:13.because we are not permitted to do that as part of our membership of
:11:14. > :11:18.the European Union and one of the things I want to get is greater
:11:19. > :11:21.freedom to be able to negotiate on behalf of the UK. That's not
:11:22. > :11:28.possible when you are inside the customs union. There's much talk of
:11:29. > :11:31.a transition after 2019. You told Bloomberg you didn't mind a few
:11:32. > :11:38.months, the Chancellor this morning said it would be a couple of years.
:11:39. > :11:41.What is it? The key thing is why would you have a transitional
:11:42. > :11:46.arrangements, how long would it be and what would the conditions be.
:11:47. > :11:52.For me first we have to leave the European Union in March 2019 so
:11:53. > :11:59.there can be no case of extending EU membership. At that point as a third
:12:00. > :12:01.country we can have a transition agreement which keeps as little
:12:02. > :12:07.disruption as possible but it has to have an end date. You said a few
:12:08. > :12:11.months, the Chancellor said a few years, why the difference? As the
:12:12. > :12:16.Chancellor said, it is more a technical argument, because for
:12:17. > :12:20.example how do we get new border equipment in place, how do we get
:12:21. > :12:24.the arrangements for immigration put in place, but for me, you know, I've
:12:25. > :12:30.waited a long time and campaigned long time to leave the European
:12:31. > :12:34.Union. As long as we leave in March 2019 I'm happy, as long as we have a
:12:35. > :12:38.time-limited transitional period to make it work for business. The
:12:39. > :12:44.Chancellor doesn't deny the transition could take up four years.
:12:45. > :12:50.The Brexit Secretary David Davis says it could be a maximum of three
:12:51. > :12:53.years, you are talking months. Shouldn't you sort this out around
:12:54. > :13:00.the Cabinet table instead of all three of you sending mixed messages?
:13:01. > :13:04.We are dependent on for example what HMRC Tal us, how investment is
:13:05. > :13:09.going. It's also a question of negotiating with our European
:13:10. > :13:14.partners. We know what's involved, why are you sending out these mixed
:13:15. > :13:19.messages? I don't have a problem with the transition period as long
:13:20. > :13:23.as it is time-limited. It is not just the time, it is the conditions.
:13:24. > :13:28.I want in the transitional period to be able to negotiate agreements at
:13:29. > :13:32.that point. We cannot have a putting off over the freedom to negotiate
:13:33. > :13:40.trade agreements. At the moment is it clear you would be able to sign
:13:41. > :13:47.any free trade deals during a transition period? No, that's to be
:13:48. > :13:53.negotiated. So if Mr Hammond or Mr Davies is right, up to three or four
:13:54. > :13:58.years, it could be 2021 before you get to sign a free trade deal. We
:13:59. > :14:04.don't now how long any would take to negotiate. They don't happen
:14:05. > :14:08.overnight. Would you even be able to negotiate during a transition
:14:09. > :14:13.period? I would hope so, that is one of the conditions we might set. It
:14:14. > :14:16.is certainly something I would want to see because otherwise it makes it
:14:17. > :14:20.much more difficult to take advantage of the opportunities that
:14:21. > :14:25.Brexit itself would produce. Your ink will run dry before you get to
:14:26. > :14:31.sign one of these agreements. We have a huge amount to do and it's
:14:32. > :14:35.not just at the free trade agreement level. We have for example what we
:14:36. > :14:40.get at the World Trade Organisation because the real game for the UK is
:14:41. > :14:48.to get a global liberalisation in the services sector -- the real
:14:49. > :14:53.gain. And I want to come onto that in a minute but before do, are you
:14:54. > :14:58.group of the Cabinet ministers that seems to regularly be briefing
:14:59. > :15:04.against Philip Hammond? No, I deplore leaks from the Cabinet, I
:15:05. > :15:11.think my colleagues should be quiet, stick to their duties, and I expect
:15:12. > :15:17.discipline to be effective. The only people smiling that this will be
:15:18. > :15:24.people in Berlin and Paris. Why are people doing it? The need to have
:15:25. > :15:30.less prosecco. They don't trust Philip Hammond, do they? I don't
:15:31. > :15:33.think that is true. I read in the press we have very different views,
:15:34. > :15:38.in fact our views are very similar on things like transition. I don't
:15:39. > :15:45.know where it is coming from but I think it should stop.
:15:46. > :15:50.But it is happening? It is happening and I think it undermines the
:15:51. > :15:55.position of the government. We do not need an interim leader or an
:15:56. > :16:01.alternative leader. We have a very good competent leader in Theresa
:16:02. > :16:05.May. But he thinks it is being done by fellow Brexiteers? I do not know
:16:06. > :16:11.who is doing it and they should stop. Let's come back to the tariff
:16:12. > :16:16.free trade. There is much talk about that. The Chancellor says much of
:16:17. > :16:20.our trade with the world is in services and free trade deals won't
:16:21. > :16:25.make any particular difference. Do you agree with him? They can make a
:16:26. > :16:30.difference. It has been estimated with the OECD that free trade deals
:16:31. > :16:37.with the United States could add ?42 billion to our bilateral trade by
:16:38. > :16:42.2030. There is a game to be made. In an economy like the UK which is 80%
:16:43. > :16:47.services, what we would benefit from is a range of global liberalisation.
:16:48. > :16:50.One example is data. We have an economy where we talk about freedom
:16:51. > :16:54.of movement of goods and services, but you also have to have the
:16:55. > :17:00.freedom of movement of data. One thing I would like the UK to lead on
:17:01. > :17:06.is to look to a global agreement on that. But the talks have come to an
:17:07. > :17:13.end. There is no great global movement. That is not true. We have
:17:14. > :17:16.just had a multilateral agreement, the trade facilitation was signed
:17:17. > :17:21.this year which seeks to diminish friction at customs around the world
:17:22. > :17:25.and will add 70 billion to the economy. But it leaves plenty of
:17:26. > :17:29.nontariff barriers in place. The moment you start to talk about these
:17:30. > :17:34.complicated rules and regulations that hinder services, it does not
:17:35. > :17:40.make free trade deals impossible, it makes them much more on placated and
:17:41. > :17:46.prolonged to do. Correct? You need to look at what is happening in the
:17:47. > :17:51.global economy. According to the OECD, in 2012, the G7 and G20
:17:52. > :17:55.countries were operating about 300 nontariff barriers. By the end of
:17:56. > :18:00.2015, they were operating nearly three times that number. The silting
:18:01. > :18:05.up of growth and global trade is being done by the global economy. We
:18:06. > :18:09.need to be looking at how we can remove some of those barriers,
:18:10. > :18:14.because otherwise our prosperity becomes limited. Is it still your
:18:15. > :18:20.view that no deal would be better than a bad deal? Anyone who goes
:18:21. > :18:24.into that negotiation without that is foolish. We will not accept any
:18:25. > :18:29.deal they will give us. That is the problem David Cameron had before the
:18:30. > :18:33.referendum. I think our partners believed we would accept a bad deal
:18:34. > :18:39.rather than none. But Philip Hammond has given the game away. He said no
:18:40. > :18:44.deal would be a very, very bad outcome. The Europeans know that we
:18:45. > :18:49.have realised no deal would be a very bad outcome. Is he right? I
:18:50. > :18:55.think you can argue on what the outcome would be. It is very
:18:56. > :18:58.important as a negotiating tool, and the Prime Minister is 100% right.
:18:59. > :19:02.Those we are negotiating with, need to believe that we would walk away
:19:03. > :19:06.rather than accept a bad deal. But if you're going to walk away you did
:19:07. > :19:22.not say the consequences would be very, very bad. You do not agree
:19:23. > :19:27.with the key is what is our negotiating position? You simply do
:19:28. > :19:31.not hand it away. So he is wrong? He says very, very bad. We have to
:19:32. > :19:34.accept we have a right to walk away and those we are negotiating with
:19:35. > :19:38.have to understand that. No businessman would go into a deal and
:19:39. > :19:43.say whatever the outcome, we will accept it. And no business would go
:19:44. > :19:48.into a major negotiation with six different voices but your government
:19:49. > :19:55.is. David Davis speaks for the government not the Sunday
:19:56. > :19:58.newspapers. Not Philip Hammond. Philip Hammond was very clear this
:19:59. > :20:06.morning on the issue of transition. We are leaving the single the --
:20:07. > :20:11.market, we are leaving the customs union. Let me just quote to some
:20:12. > :20:17.other issues. It would be good to get some clarity. Is there a
:20:18. > :20:21.contingency plan for no deal? Yes, government departments are all
:20:22. > :20:25.working for their contingency plans for what would happen if we got to
:20:26. > :20:31.the end of negotiation with no deal. Why did the Foreign Secretary say
:20:32. > :20:35.there was no plan for no deal. There are contingency plans across
:20:36. > :20:41.Whitehall. Is he wrong or out of the loop? As dead no. There are
:20:42. > :20:45.contingency plans and my department and other departments have
:20:46. > :20:50.specifically been tasked... He said it this week. Well, that is not
:20:51. > :20:55.correct. We would be foolish not to have such contingency plans. I
:20:56. > :20:59.understand the argument, you need to bring the Foreign Secretary in. He
:21:00. > :21:05.is only the Foreign Secretary that you would need to bring him in, I
:21:06. > :21:11.would have thought. You want is full deal with the EU as possible. Would
:21:12. > :21:20.you be prepared to pay for that kind of open access? It depends what you
:21:21. > :21:25.mean by pay. We have to start with where we are with the European Union
:21:26. > :21:31.at the moment. We already have a tariff free arrangement. I know what
:21:32. > :21:35.we already have. The only reason why we would not continue with that is
:21:36. > :21:41.if the politicians on the other side of the channel wanted to put
:21:42. > :21:47.politics before economics. What they said they want an annual fee? If
:21:48. > :21:50.they are talking about Britain continuing to pay for those
:21:51. > :21:56.international arrangements... I am not talking about that and I think
:21:57. > :21:59.you know I am not. If we get a full access trade deal, that they say you
:22:00. > :22:05.have to pay an annual fee for this full access, should we pay it? I
:22:06. > :22:09.would not want to make a public position while our negotiations are
:22:10. > :22:14.coming on but I think you would find it difficult to square with WTO law.
:22:15. > :22:19.Has there ever been a free trade deal where you pay the other side
:22:20. > :22:25.for access? Not that I am aware of. Nor me. It would be unprecedented.
:22:26. > :22:29.Are you ruling it out? I am not going to say anything. I see say we
:22:30. > :22:30.should not have a number of different cabinet voices ahead of
:22:31. > :22:55.our negotiations so I will not do that. We will have a
:22:56. > :22:58.negotiation. We will try and get as free deal as possible. Let me tell
:22:59. > :23:00.you why it is important. I know why it is important. I have another
:23:01. > :23:03.question. You said the EU has trade deals with a number of other
:23:04. > :23:05.countries at the moment of which we are part of, South Korea and Canada
:23:06. > :23:09.are two examples. Will they continue to trade with us on the existing
:23:10. > :23:11.basis, or will we have to do new deals or change these deals after
:23:12. > :23:16.Brexit? We are negotiating with his third countries so we have something
:23:17. > :23:21.so that deals are translated into UK law so there is no disruption to
:23:22. > :23:27.trade. It is not clear. It is break clear. The Canada deal has not yet
:23:28. > :23:31.been ratified by the European Union. So we do not know if we can carry on
:23:32. > :23:37.trading with those countries which the EU has a free trade deal with on
:23:38. > :23:44.the same basis. We have not spoken to a single country and we have
:23:45. > :23:49.working groups with Switzerland and career which make up 82% by value.
:23:50. > :23:53.Not a single one of those has indicated they did not want to carry
:23:54. > :23:58.out this transitional adoption. In the case of Canada, in the case of
:23:59. > :24:03.Singapore, where that agreement has not yet been reached by the EU, we
:24:04. > :24:09.will have to think then about a Plan B and how we go into a bilateral
:24:10. > :24:16.agreement. The EU now regards as may as a lame duck leader. It is true in
:24:17. > :24:21.Brussels, Berlin and Paris -- the EU now regards Mrs May as a lame duck
:24:22. > :24:26.leader. There is a hung parliament. Labour will not save your bacon on
:24:27. > :24:33.Brexit. They want a quick election and they will vote to bring that
:24:34. > :24:39.about. This election result has severely undermined Britain's
:24:40. > :24:42.negotiating position. If you are looking at European governments,
:24:43. > :24:46.they are looking at dealing with minority governments all the time.
:24:47. > :24:50.They are dealing with coalitions formal and informal. The key is we
:24:51. > :24:53.have something stronger than that. We have the will of the British
:24:54. > :24:58.people behind us clearly expressed in the referendum that we are going
:24:59. > :25:02.to leave the European Union, whatever Tony Blair or anyone else
:25:03. > :25:06.says. We will leave in March 20 19. Now the job of the government is to
:25:07. > :25:10.get the best deal and that is best done by my colleagues getting on
:25:11. > :25:14.with their departmental work, not involving themselves in things they
:25:15. > :25:17.do not need to be involved in, giving our backbenchers the
:25:18. > :25:22.reassurance that we have a united Cabinet. Liam Fox, thank you.
:25:23. > :25:25.Jeremy Corbyn went to Brussels this week to meet with the EU's
:25:26. > :25:26.chief Brexit negotiator, Michael Barnier.
:25:27. > :25:28.We're told Mr Corbyn wanted to set out Labour's
:25:29. > :25:32.But on some of the big questions - like Britain's relationship
:25:33. > :25:34.with the single market and the customs union -
:25:35. > :25:37.Here's Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell speaking earlier.
:25:38. > :25:39.I believe we have to try and maintain the benefits
:25:40. > :25:42.of the customs union, and that's one of the issues
:25:43. > :25:46.Does it mean staying inside or leaving?
:25:47. > :25:48.Keep all the options open, keep all the options...
:25:49. > :25:50.Under Labour we could stay inside the customs union?
:25:51. > :25:53.We are concentrating on the objectives rather
:25:54. > :25:56.than the structures and that seems to have a resonance
:25:57. > :25:59.I'm joined now by the Shadow Business Secretary
:26:00. > :26:03.Rebecca Long-Bailey, she's in our Salford studio.
:26:04. > :26:10.Good morning to you. Good morning. If there is a snap general election
:26:11. > :26:14.it could well be Labour negotiating Brexit, so let's try and get some
:26:15. > :26:18.answers to some fundamental questions. Is Labour in favour of
:26:19. > :26:22.Britain remaining a member of the single market? What we have said it
:26:23. > :26:28.want to retain the benefits of the single market and the customs union.
:26:29. > :26:31.We have to be flexible in our approach, we appreciate that. The
:26:32. > :26:32.end goal is maintaining the current benefits we have because we are
:26:33. > :26:54.standing on the edge of a cliff, quite frankly, on
:26:55. > :26:56.that matter. But you would concentrate on remaining a member of
:26:57. > :26:59.the single market? The machinery we use to maintain those benefits is
:27:00. > :27:02.open to negotiation. We have got to respect the result of the referendum
:27:03. > :27:04.and the will of the people, in terms of having greater control over our
:27:05. > :27:06.laws and the border. If we could negotiate staying in the single
:27:07. > :27:09.market would be fantastic but whether it is likely have to be
:27:10. > :27:12.seen. We are looking at all the options on the table and getting
:27:13. > :27:18.access to the single market is one of those. Everybody wants access, I
:27:19. > :27:22.am talking about membership. It is still not clear whether you would
:27:23. > :27:25.negotiate to remain as a member of the single market, with all the
:27:26. > :27:31.consequences of free movement and the European Court that would follow
:27:32. > :27:35.from that. What is your position? We want to retain the current benefits
:27:36. > :27:39.we have is a member of the single market, but we appreciate there will
:27:40. > :27:43.be free movement and we will lose control over our laws. That was one
:27:44. > :27:48.of the key positions that were set out in the referendum and people
:27:49. > :27:52.were extremely concerned about that. That has to be negotiated. If we
:27:53. > :27:57.could negotiate membership of the single market while dealing with the
:27:58. > :28:02.other issues, that would be great. I think that would be unlikely. We
:28:03. > :28:08.have to look at a more flexible approach while not being a member.
:28:09. > :28:14.Is Labour in favour of remaining a member of the customs union? Again,
:28:15. > :28:20.the position is similar. We want to retain the benefits we have in the
:28:21. > :28:23.customs union. We want to have our cake and eat it, as do most parties
:28:24. > :28:27.in Westminster. So you and Boris Johnson or on the same wavelength?
:28:28. > :28:35.We need to be flexible, not cut our nose off despite our face. I am
:28:36. > :28:43.asking for your position. Would you be clear to be prepared to sacrifice
:28:44. > :28:48.not being able to do free trade deals, as the price for remaining in
:28:49. > :28:53.the customs union? We have to be extremely flexible. We should be
:28:54. > :29:00.able to carry out and negotiate our free trade deals. You cannot do that
:29:01. > :29:04.in the customs union? So are you in or out? That is why it is a point
:29:05. > :29:08.for negotiation, Andrew. We want to retain the benefits of the customs
:29:09. > :29:13.union will negotiating trade deals as we see fit. That will form part
:29:14. > :29:18.of the negotiations themselves. We cannot cut our nose despite our face
:29:19. > :29:21.without coming out of the customs union without any transitional
:29:22. > :29:26.arrangements whatsoever and send businesses over the cliff. Since you
:29:27. > :29:29.do want to keep your cake and eat it. You want to stay in the single
:29:30. > :29:39.market but not have the obligations that go with it, stay the single
:29:40. > :29:44.union but not do -- stay in the single market but do your own trade
:29:45. > :29:51.deals. The opposition is untenable. That is the point of the
:29:52. > :29:56.negotiations... To be untenable? Not to be untenable. We have
:29:57. > :30:00.negotiations. The machinery we have whether it is through outside
:30:01. > :30:03.agreements or whether it is about a negotiated form of an amended
:30:04. > :30:09.settlement, that is a moot point frankly. We need to make sure we
:30:10. > :30:14.have the same benefits. John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor,
:30:15. > :30:17.says people would interpret remaining in the single market is
:30:18. > :30:21.not respecting the referendum but you say it is an option to keep
:30:22. > :30:25.open, who is right? I think he is right in what he said. It is
:30:26. > :30:28.automatically assumed that once you leave the EU you leave the single
:30:29. > :30:33.market and that is generally the case. I would be surprised that we
:30:34. > :30:37.would be able to negotiate any of the concessions that we want to make
:30:38. > :30:40.as remaining part of the single market as a member. I am not saying
:30:41. > :30:45.it is completely off the table because stranger things have
:30:46. > :30:49.happened, but what we need to focus on is less on the machinery and more
:30:50. > :30:52.on the outcome. We need to make sure we retain the benefits and we
:30:53. > :30:58.negotiate some form of agreement to deal with that.
:30:59. > :31:05.But why would you keep an option open that would not respect the
:31:06. > :31:10.result of the referendum? People assume that once you leave the EU
:31:11. > :31:14.you leave the single market. That could be negotiated, but it's
:31:15. > :31:18.extremely unlikely. I wouldn't rule anything out at this stage because
:31:19. > :31:23.stranger things have happened and this process so far has been
:31:24. > :31:27.extremely chaotic. But you would have to decide your negotiating
:31:28. > :31:35.position. Saying we don't rule anything out is not a negotiating
:31:36. > :31:38.position. We are clear on our negotiating position, we want to
:31:39. > :31:43.retain the benefits we currently have as part of the customs union
:31:44. > :31:48.and the single market, whether that is inside or outside is a moot
:31:49. > :31:58.point. Rex it means Brexit, we are clear on that. -- Brexit means
:31:59. > :32:02.Brexit. How can it, if you want to stay inside the single market and
:32:03. > :32:07.Customs union, and you said access would entail accepting some element
:32:08. > :32:11.of free movement. That's what you said but your manifesto was
:32:12. > :32:17.categorical - free movement would end after Brexit, which is currently
:32:18. > :32:22.Labour policy? The manifesto was clear free movement would end. The
:32:23. > :32:27.point I was making at the time is there are some areas which are
:32:28. > :32:35.extremely complex, for example the free movement of scientists. There
:32:36. > :32:38.is an extreme state of concern regarding that, so the Government
:32:39. > :32:43.has to look at things like that. There might have to be concession is
:32:44. > :32:47.made in certain areas like that in order to get an associative
:32:48. > :32:51.membership for example but the clear position overall is that free
:32:52. > :32:55.movement would end and we are in favour of reasonable and managed
:32:56. > :32:59.migration. We are also not in favour of the current undercutting of wages
:33:00. > :33:02.for example through the Swedish denigration and we want to see that
:33:03. > :33:07.end immediately because we don't think it is right company cancels
:33:08. > :33:14.labour overseas and undercut British employees. Let me finish on another
:33:15. > :33:18.topic. John McDonnell again, the Shadow Chancellor, said this morning
:33:19. > :33:25.the victims of Grenfell Tower were victims of social murder. What is
:33:26. > :33:32.social murder? I haven't spoken to John about that but what happened in
:33:33. > :33:38.Grenfell was absolutely horrific. But were they victims of social
:33:39. > :33:44.murder? I haven't spoken to John to understand the term but in my
:33:45. > :33:49.constituency we have a large number of tower blocks that have the same
:33:50. > :33:53.cladding on and people are living in fear. Following the Lakanal House
:33:54. > :33:58.fire, the coroner made recommendations the Government
:33:59. > :34:04.should be installing sprinklers in all housing over 30 metres high and
:34:05. > :34:09.they haven't done that. I call on than to do that immediately whilst
:34:10. > :34:14.also making sure the funding is available to carry out necessary
:34:15. > :34:24.remedial works. One other issue has come light... My question is
:34:25. > :34:29.important... When John McDonnell says that the people in Grenfell
:34:30. > :34:34.Tower were murdered, murdered by political decisions, is he right? I
:34:35. > :34:43.go back to the point I made earlier. I haven't discussed it with John...
:34:44. > :34:52.Two weeks ago. The Government should have acted on recommendations. Were
:34:53. > :34:57.they murdered? They should have acted on recommendations to retrofit
:34:58. > :35:02.sprinklers and they didn't. There was incompetence is no question,
:35:03. > :35:07.dereliction of duty, some terrible decisions made that resulted in that
:35:08. > :35:12.appalling event that we saw but does that amount to murder? It is a
:35:13. > :35:18.simple question. You could look at it case of manslaughter but the fact
:35:19. > :35:22.is people lost their lives through a failure to conduct adequately a duty
:35:23. > :35:27.of care. People would assume that is murder if you like, if it was taken
:35:28. > :35:33.through the courts, and could be classified as corporate
:35:34. > :35:38.manslaughter. It's not murder? We are going round in circles here. The
:35:39. > :35:42.point is the Government should have acted on recommendations to retrofit
:35:43. > :35:45.sprinklers years ago and should have looked at amending building
:35:46. > :35:51.regulations instead of kicking the issue into the long grass time and
:35:52. > :35:56.time again. People where I live are living in extreme fear, and we want
:35:57. > :35:59.the Government to take action immediately. Rebecca Long-Bailey
:36:00. > :36:02.from Salford, thank you for joining us.
:36:03. > :36:05.You may not have noticed but Ukip - the party that once promised
:36:06. > :36:07.and arguably delivered a political earthquake - is having
:36:08. > :36:11.The last leader, Paul Nuttall, stood down after the party saw its vote
:36:12. > :36:16.is one anti-Islam candidate threatening to split what's
:36:17. > :36:34.Forget the warm prosecco, if there is any plotting going on in Ukip
:36:35. > :36:41.about who should be in charge, it would be going on over a pint. And
:36:42. > :36:46.there is plotting. This programme understands Ukip's ruling body could
:36:47. > :36:52.ban one of the candidates from standing, and that is not going to
:36:53. > :36:56.go down terribly well. Anne Marie Waters, a former Labour activist,
:36:57. > :37:00.wants to be the next leader. She believes Ukip needs to talk more
:37:01. > :37:04.about Islam, a religion she has called evil. She says there is
:37:05. > :37:08.growing support for her views including among the hundreds of new
:37:09. > :37:15.members who have joined Ukip in recent weeks. Are you anti-Islam? I
:37:16. > :37:21.don't like the religion, no, and a lot of people get confused on Islam
:37:22. > :37:26.and all Muslims. The religion, the Scriptures and how it is practised
:37:27. > :37:29.in most of the world I find quite frankly abhorrent. There are
:37:30. > :37:36.millions of people in this country who think as I do. They don't
:37:37. > :37:41.want... And the real extreme right could rise if people are not allowed
:37:42. > :37:45.to talk about this. Nigel Farage has already said he doesn't want to be
:37:46. > :37:51.the leader again, but he still has a clear view of what Ukip 's macro
:37:52. > :38:00.future should and should not hold. Ukip goes down the route of being a
:38:01. > :38:03.party that is anti the religion of Islam, frankly it's finished. I
:38:04. > :38:07.don't think there is any public appetite for that but it is timing
:38:08. > :38:11.and the party would be finished. If there are some within Ukip who say
:38:12. > :38:12.the party had already moved to the right at the last election with its
:38:13. > :38:20.integration agenda. Banning
:38:21. > :38:21.the burka and physically checking children for female
:38:22. > :38:23.genital mutilation. If we don't really do something
:38:24. > :38:26.about FGM now, we never will. Anne Marie Waters wants to go
:38:27. > :38:28.further but also suspects The party chairman says
:38:29. > :38:34.there will be due process according to Ukip's constitution,
:38:35. > :38:49.including the screening process
:38:50. > :38:51.for its leadership candidates conducted
:38:52. > :38:53.by an external vetting company. But like the old boss,
:38:54. > :38:55.he doesn't think Ukip should become What we're going through now
:38:56. > :38:59.is a process where people can I'm talking about the process
:39:00. > :39:03.we have, which I think is robust enough to protect the party,
:39:04. > :39:06.its history, and protect its future. We have always been
:39:07. > :39:08.about being for something, we are not against something,
:39:09. > :39:10.and hopefully that will come through in this leadership election
:39:11. > :39:12.so I'm excited about it. I'm not focusing on one
:39:13. > :39:14.particular candidate. But it has got senior
:39:15. > :39:16.party figures worried. Several MEPs have told me
:39:17. > :39:18.the majority of their colleagues in Brussels would walk away
:39:19. > :39:21.if Anne Marie Waters Another Ukip senior source
:39:22. > :39:24.said there would be mass The deadline for leadership
:39:25. > :39:27.nominations is the 28th of July. So far, around seven people have
:39:28. > :39:30.said they intend to stand. Of course the bigger the field,
:39:31. > :39:33.the fewer the votes required to win. One senior MEP told me it would be
:39:34. > :39:36.the most rancorous contest the party had ever had,
:39:37. > :39:38.amongst the least stellar cast. The man who led Ukip at its most
:39:39. > :39:41.successful says direction is one thing but the party must also become
:39:42. > :39:43.more professional on their current
:39:44. > :39:52.trajectory, then they will on their current
:39:53. > :39:55.trajectory, then they will And as I say, if Ukip withers
:39:56. > :39:59.and Brexit is not delivered, something else will replace it
:40:00. > :40:02.so I'm saying to what is still my party, unless you change radically,
:40:03. > :40:04.get your act together, Whatever the direction
:40:05. > :40:14.the new leader takes Ukip, there are already plenty who think
:40:15. > :40:25.the party is over. We say goodbye to viewers
:40:26. > :40:35.in Scotland who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,
:40:36. > :40:39.we'll be talking about what's next Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics
:40:40. > :40:51.in Northern Ireland. The First Ministers of Wales
:40:52. > :40:54.and Scotland meet the EU negotiator Michel Barnier -
:40:55. > :40:56.but who speaks for this I'll be asking the Sinn Fein MEP,
:40:57. > :41:00.Martina Anderson, if the absence of Stormont has reduced our Brexit
:41:01. > :41:05.influence. And after what's been
:41:06. > :41:07.described as the most successful Twelfth for years,
:41:08. > :41:09.has parading finally been That's what I'll be asking
:41:10. > :41:13.Professor Peter Shirlow It's been called the "most
:41:14. > :41:23.peaceful" Twelfth of July Thousands of Orangemen
:41:24. > :41:29.took part in 18 parades across Northern Ireland on the main
:41:30. > :41:31.day in the marching calendar. The Grand Master of Ireland said it
:41:32. > :41:35.was the "biggest in a generation". There was no trouble at any
:41:36. > :41:37.of the traditional flash points and police praised Orangemen
:41:38. > :41:45.and those watching the parades. However, it was a different story
:41:46. > :41:48.at several eleventh night bonfires with the Fire and Rescue Service
:41:49. > :41:50.describing it Firefighters prevented a blaze
:41:51. > :41:54.spreading to an apartment block in South Belfast,
:41:55. > :41:56.though the heat cracked The police are also investigating
:41:57. > :42:01.reports of "distasteful material" And Pete Shirlow and Patricia
:42:02. > :42:10.MacBride are with me now. Welcome to you both. To the last is
:42:11. > :42:15.on the politics of the series. It's been judged to have
:42:16. > :42:25.been a successful and From all points of view that has to
:42:26. > :42:34.be good. This is a bigger issue. Why was this the case? Why did it not
:42:35. > :42:38.has become in the Liu what it has becoming recent years? Because I
:42:39. > :42:43.know some of the people who work behind the scenes to resolve, some
:42:44. > :42:46.people who would be involved in the holy cross dispute which was also
:42:47. > :42:50.resolve which tells us of a bigger problem about some of the issues
:42:51. > :42:54.with the conflict in Northern Ireland. When we have the type of
:42:55. > :42:57.positivity, this type of engagement we know very little about it, and
:42:58. > :43:06.doesn't scream from the headlines, it's not the first item, the first
:43:07. > :43:15.item is something else, you are honourable to do this for the
:43:16. > :43:19.headline of your programme. The services are constantly overburdened
:43:20. > :43:24.by people putting a racist blacks or writing offensive things on the
:43:25. > :43:32.wall, you're constantly looking at crises but the other side, there is
:43:33. > :43:38.plenty of tasteful negotiation. Do you get a sense from people you talk
:43:39. > :43:43.to that the parading has a large extent been solved? Peter is right
:43:44. > :43:46.in the sense that there have been many years of quiet diplomacy which
:43:47. > :43:51.has brought us to this stage. Certainly Derry City set the model
:43:52. > :43:55.in that, in negotiations that took part with the parades, with the
:43:56. > :44:00.apprentice boys, and it is only to be welcomed that we have a series of
:44:01. > :44:08.parades on the 12th of July this year weather has known major
:44:09. > :44:14.confrontation. -- weather has been no confrontations. How do we deal
:44:15. > :44:19.with the bonfires on the 11th which are causing a public danger? It is a
:44:20. > :44:26.matter of public safety, and anyone who thinks that they are attacking
:44:27. > :44:30.cultural expression in exciting concerns about bonfires, that is
:44:31. > :44:35.wrong, the bonfires in and of themselves are the problem, in terms
:44:36. > :44:39.of the issues that they pose. A lot of people would agree with that,
:44:40. > :44:44.Pete, not to say that new flash point as far as parading are
:44:45. > :44:49.concerned might not emerging feature but the bonfire issue is the issue
:44:50. > :44:53.of the moment. It is a divisive issue part of a broader problem in
:44:54. > :44:59.the society, if you look at the social media around the bonfires in
:45:00. > :45:05.the week and you see a tit-for-tat argument between Unionism and
:45:06. > :45:09.republicanism. Some people posts horrible Chris Langridge around
:45:10. > :45:17.Glasgow Celtic footballers, and other people respond with names of
:45:18. > :45:20.people describing black people as inferior and being involved with the
:45:21. > :45:32.slave trade, all involving homophobia can be Unionism, Castro,
:45:33. > :45:35.homophobia, there is a issue in our society which we can't resolve,
:45:36. > :45:37.which is expecting tit-for-tat. A lot of people from this part
:45:38. > :45:41.of the world might have been on holidays this week,
:45:42. > :45:43.but in London and Brussels it was business as usual -
:45:44. > :45:46.and top of the agenda, Theresa May unveiled
:45:47. > :45:53.the Brexit Repeal Bill, the Scottish and Welsh First Ministers held
:45:54. > :45:55.meetings with Michel Barnier, while a European committee heard
:45:56. > :45:58.that Ireland should get more MEPs to represent Irish passport holders
:45:59. > :46:00.on this side of the border. Here's Guy Verhofstadt
:46:01. > :46:09.with his proposal. There will be in the future 500
:46:10. > :46:15.600,000 people, Northern Irish people with an Irish passport. These
:46:16. > :46:20.people are still EU citizens, these people normally should still have
:46:21. > :46:27.the possibility in my opinion to participate in our European actions.
:46:28. > :46:30.Even when they are not living in the European Union but living in
:46:31. > :46:35.Northern Ireland but with an Irish passport. And with an EU
:46:36. > :46:39.citizenship. So any allegation of the seats, that problem should be
:46:40. > :46:41.tackled will stop -- in the allocation.
:46:42. > :46:45.Joining me now from our Foyle studio is the Sinn Fein
:46:46. > :46:49.We did ask the two main unionist parties to take
:46:50. > :46:51.part in the programme, but we were told no-one
:46:52. > :46:55.Martina Anderson - Do you like the sound of extra MEPs
:46:56. > :46:57.to represent Northern Ireland citizens who are Irish passport
:46:58. > :47:12.I wasn't surprised that Guy Verhofstadt said that, because
:47:13. > :47:18.following a meeting I had with him on Tuesday and building on the case
:47:19. > :47:22.of special designated status for the north, I presented him with what was
:47:23. > :47:25.called an essential principle paper, a paper about designated special
:47:26. > :47:30.status and how all of the elements need to be achieved. He was very
:47:31. > :47:39.aware and taken by the fact that given that the Parliament has
:47:40. > :47:42.already seen a preservation of the Good Friday Agreement in all of its
:47:43. > :47:49.parts, with 1500 MEPs, all of its parts mean that those elements of
:47:50. > :47:52.the agreement that has afforded us to be Irish passport holders for
:47:53. > :47:57.example opens up the passport into EU citizenship and EU citizens
:47:58. > :48:03.rights, and what we had in Article ten it is quite clearly stating that
:48:04. > :48:08.direct representation is required for those people who have in our
:48:09. > :48:13.case whether you hold an Irish passport or not that the 1.8 million
:48:14. > :48:19.people here, that is one the access to the Good Friday Agreement in
:48:20. > :48:26.shrines for all of us, and Guy Verhofstadt got that will stop in
:48:27. > :48:33.practical terms, remember of course, there was a rejection of the special
:48:34. > :48:39.status, it seems your fellow MEPs don't like the idea that. Practical
:48:40. > :48:42.terms, how would MEPs elected by people in Northern Ireland but
:48:43. > :48:46.representing the Republic of Ireland actually work, do you think? Let me
:48:47. > :48:52.explain to you to programme and was took place in the Parliament last
:48:53. > :48:55.week was really it was a battle, eight resolutions, all resolutions
:48:56. > :49:01.rejected, each of the groups voted for their own resolution, and no one
:49:02. > :49:07.else's. It wasn't a resolution to do with designated status or a
:49:08. > :49:12.resolution to deal with Brexit, the Parliament has a clear position on
:49:13. > :49:15.Brexit, and 516 MEPs voted to preserve all of the parts of the
:49:16. > :49:22.Good Friday Agreement. I don't want to go back over that. In practical
:49:23. > :49:28.terms, how would Guy Verhofstadt's ideal work? Could it work? As I have
:49:29. > :49:31.said before there are 25 overseas countries and territories that have
:49:32. > :49:38.a relationship with the EU that have a special relationships are what we
:49:39. > :49:45.are asking for is not new. North Cyprus, Turkey end of it was the Liu
:49:46. > :49:50.is not in the EU, but Cypriots can vote in European elections. There
:49:51. > :49:54.are nearly 100,000 Cypriots Turks oared Turkish Cypriots, however you
:49:55. > :50:03.want to refer to them as, but they can vote in the European elections
:50:04. > :50:08.even though the north end of Cyprus is under Turkey occupation. Said
:50:09. > :50:12.that is the sort of precedent you would quote you think it is
:50:13. > :50:19.eminently doable? It is deliverable without doubt. The point is that
:50:20. > :50:23.having an Irish passport means that you have acquired rights and
:50:24. > :50:27.acquired rights that are absolute rights, and an absolute right under
:50:28. > :50:35.Article ten is to participate in democratic representation within the
:50:36. > :50:38.union. It means that you will be treated by EU institutions equally,
:50:39. > :50:44.so there are a number of acquired rights that people have by virtue of
:50:45. > :50:50.the fact of the Good Friday Agreement hence the reason they need
:50:51. > :50:55.to be protected in all of its parts. I want to ask you about the Brexit
:50:56. > :51:00.repeal Bill, as Theresa May unveiled it would need consent from devolved
:51:01. > :51:06.assemblies. Where does that leave us here? At the moment we don't have an
:51:07. > :51:13.assembly, and we don't have a voice at the table. We had yesterday from
:51:14. > :51:20.Michelle O'Neill, she was very clear that we are obviously up for having
:51:21. > :51:23.an assembly established on an assembly predicated on good
:51:24. > :51:31.governance, one predicated on equality and rights. We have heard
:51:32. > :51:33.this before! Over the past six months, Northern Ireland has
:51:34. > :51:38.singularly failed in its parties to get anything up and running again.
:51:39. > :51:41.Part of the responsibility for the rest was Sinn Fein, because Martin
:51:42. > :51:45.McGuinness Portadown in January. We know about that, we know that Sinn
:51:46. > :51:49.Fein said that you think that you wanted to get running again as
:51:50. > :51:53.possible. It is easy to say that but it has been difficult to deliver
:51:54. > :51:56.that. Where does that leave us? Is has not of course been easy to
:51:57. > :52:00.deliver but that does not fall upon Sinn Fein. We heard from Michelle
:52:01. > :52:03.O'Neill yesterday that jazz been in contact with all of the leaders of
:52:04. > :52:08.all of the parties do try to make that happen. We do know that the
:52:09. > :52:11.obstacles that we have a leave had been put in the way have been
:52:12. > :52:17.brought about by the DUP and by the British Government. You know very
:52:18. > :52:19.well of course that the DUP and Ulster Unionists and the British
:52:20. > :52:23.Government see it very differently and the Unionist parties say it as
:52:24. > :52:30.the reason of the bread line that Sinn Fein has -- red line that Sinn
:52:31. > :52:38.Fein has refused to budge on. I don't want to rehearse that. Martin
:52:39. > :52:41.McGuinness was right on his expression, exposing himself in a
:52:42. > :52:45.way that every else has ever done before. He brought the assembly down
:52:46. > :52:51.based upon all of the allegations that we were facing and because of
:52:52. > :52:55.how the Unionists in government work treating some sections of the
:52:56. > :53:02.people. We have researched the Liu rehearsed visage at a lot. We are up
:53:03. > :53:08.for an assembly. So you are in full agreement with Michelle O'Neill
:53:09. > :53:15.yesterday? Without is Emily due except we are voiceless? No, because
:53:16. > :53:21.I think we can see that for instance with the largest delegation in the
:53:22. > :53:25.European Parliament, Sinn Fein has a severe believe every significant
:53:26. > :53:28.influence. I will be meeting with Michel Barnier in September and we
:53:29. > :53:33.will be working and meeting with all of the key players in the European
:53:34. > :53:36.Parliament. We are looking to the negotiations to start tomorrow,
:53:37. > :53:39.there are three priorities for the Parliament, one being BAC we have
:53:40. > :53:45.just been talking about, acquired rights, citizens rights of which we
:53:46. > :53:50.have got to make sure that they are protected for us here in the north.
:53:51. > :53:55.The second is the divorce settlement, the prices are going to
:53:56. > :53:58.be hacked to be paid by Britain to leave the EU and then the third is
:53:59. > :54:02.Ireland, so we have been talking to Brussels and to the Irish government
:54:03. > :54:08.because that scenario where negotiations are taking place. We
:54:09. > :54:15.also know the damage of the Great Repeal Bill, and it is proper that
:54:16. > :54:21.the legislation be sought, it certainly went begetting legislative
:54:22. > :54:26.consent by the majority of the people in the assembly, that by the
:54:27. > :54:28.majority of the parties in assembly. You are in Brussels and Strasbourg a
:54:29. > :54:32.lot and you are talking to people with the ear to the ground. Is it
:54:33. > :54:38.your view that the Irish border continues to be one of the issues
:54:39. > :54:42.right at the top of the agenda as far as Europe is concerned?
:54:43. > :54:48.Absolutely. It is something that we heard from them last week, from
:54:49. > :54:54.Michel Barnier, who actually put to bed those that have been told,
:54:55. > :54:59.farmers, SMEs, universities or others, that there is such a thing
:55:00. > :55:03.as frictionless trade. He actually said there is no such thing as
:55:04. > :55:06.frictionless trade so the case that Sinn Fein has made for designated
:55:07. > :55:12.special status for the north to remain within the EU has been
:55:13. > :55:16.presented, we have been told how it could be secured, we have presented
:55:17. > :55:21.a central principles, we are getting legal advice to demonstrate how that
:55:22. > :55:26.can be achieved. The UK Government doesn't want that whether you like
:55:27. > :55:29.it or not, and they are the body negotiating with the European Union.
:55:30. > :55:32.It isn't Sinn Fein, it's not down to Martina Anderson to make this called
:55:33. > :55:38.it is down Theresa May and David Davis. They see a very differently
:55:39. > :55:44.from you. It is down to myself, the Sinn Fein delegation and are parties
:55:45. > :55:50.to make deliveries for the people, particularly the 52% of people,
:55:51. > :56:02.across tradition, across our society, who have been arrogantly
:56:03. > :56:06.described as Remoaners. We rendered all those people who voted to
:56:07. > :56:10.remain, and we leave that the people who didn't vote to remain are now
:56:11. > :56:14.seeing the devastation and damaged that can be caused by a Brexit to
:56:15. > :56:18.the north and a lot of people are now reflecting how they feel.
:56:19. > :56:20.Interesting to hear your thoughts, Martina Anderson. Thanks very much
:56:21. > :56:23.for joining us from Derry this morning.
:56:24. > :56:26.Let's get reaction to that from Patricia and Pete.
:56:27. > :56:32.It is interesting to hear her perspective on that are clearly not
:56:33. > :56:37.giving up on the status designation for Northern Ireland. You heard her
:56:38. > :56:41.say right at the end to remain within the EU, Northern Ireland,
:56:42. > :56:46.even though nobody from the UK perspective is talking about that.
:56:47. > :56:50.If you saw the newspapers this morning, a former cabinet secretary
:56:51. > :56:54.is talking about how the British Government's response to Brexit is
:56:55. > :56:57.disorganised, and there was no agreement internally. They don't
:56:58. > :57:01.have the resources to drive this programme forward. The British
:57:02. > :57:04.Government not wanting special designated status for the north is
:57:05. > :57:06.probably more a case of the British Government not really having thought
:57:07. > :57:11.that far ahead because they don't appear to be well planned. It is
:57:12. > :57:15.very far down their list of priorities, isn't it? The very huge
:57:16. > :57:18.issues they had to grapple with as far as Europe is concerned, Northern
:57:19. > :57:23.Ireland is not probably in the top ten issues for Theresa May. There is
:57:24. > :57:25.so much disagreement with the Conservative Party internally so
:57:26. > :57:30.they don't even know what the top ten issues are. We had to play some
:57:31. > :57:37.hope in terms of people in the north around two issues. First of all what
:57:38. > :57:41.was said about the vote within the Parliament to support the Good
:57:42. > :57:44.Friday Agreement and that secondly the very clear direction of the
:57:45. > :57:48.travel of the Irish government, ensuring there is no negative impact
:57:49. > :57:54.on Ireland and in order to do that, that is the entire island of
:57:55. > :57:59.Ireland. People I think are jumping ahead of themselves here. First of
:58:00. > :58:04.all you see British politics being galvanised by the referendum. There
:58:05. > :58:09.is greater commitment to reducing the impact of this decision was one
:58:10. > :58:13.thing we will see and the argument Lib Dems are taking, this is going
:58:14. > :58:21.to be softer than we think. It is nobody's interest in being outside
:58:22. > :58:25.the trading unions, or that Tizer partnerships, for financial reasons
:58:26. > :58:33.with Europe. If you look at the impact for universities and stuff,
:58:34. > :58:40.Northern Ireland is in the top ten list of issues here, there is no
:58:41. > :58:44.hard border being desired. The relationship between two states,
:58:45. > :58:47.Ireland and Britain is not at the best, despite this friction over
:58:48. > :58:52.Brexit, so we need to be careful here not to rattle issues that
:58:53. > :58:55.haven't come to the fore yet. Before decisions are made. Let's park that
:58:56. > :58:58.one. With the Stormont discussions now
:58:59. > :59:00.parked for several weeks, the Prime Minister has been urged
:59:01. > :59:03.by two Northern Ireland Office veterans to get more
:59:04. > :59:04.personally involved. They made the comments
:59:05. > :59:13.in the House of Lords this week. Every single agreement in northern
:59:14. > :59:15.Ireland has been successful because of the direct involvement of the
:59:16. > :59:21.Prime Minister and the Taoiseach. Isn't it about time the Prime
:59:22. > :59:24.Minister goes to Belfast and talk directly with the parties and the
:59:25. > :59:30.Irish government, and until that happens I feel we will make little
:59:31. > :59:35.progress. The noble Lord raised this point in a statement ten days ago or
:59:36. > :59:40.so and indeed the noble Lord he raised it as well but can I reassure
:59:41. > :59:43.him that the Prime Minister is taking a close interest close
:59:44. > :59:46.involvement in this. Should she see fit she will indeed travel to
:59:47. > :59:51.Northern Ireland. The Prime Minister clearly has a close interest, nobody
:59:52. > :59:55.would suggest that she hasn't, but there is no substitute for a visit
:59:56. > :00:00.full stop to go to Northern Ireland to talk on the spot in Hillsborough
:00:01. > :00:06.with the various parties involved, and when she's talking to them
:00:07. > :00:12.bearing in mind the most Avril suggestion of my friend Lord Trimble
:00:13. > :00:21.who has made Tyneside that -- many times has said that the delay in
:00:22. > :00:22.sets in at the assembly that the assembly cannot meet.
:00:23. > :00:25.Lord Cormack and before that Lord Murphy, the former
:00:26. > :00:28.Northern Ireland Secretary, speaking in the Lords on Thursday.
:00:29. > :00:36.Is that what it will take? This is around the engagement of the British
:00:37. > :00:41.Government in the north, a great test of the DUP confidence and
:00:42. > :00:45.supply agreement, the DUP are serious about getting power-sharing
:00:46. > :00:49.running at all and then they need to insist the bar minister comes here.
:00:50. > :00:52.Look at the challenges that Theresa May has in her injury at the moment.
:00:53. > :00:56.Dealing with the whole Brexit issue is a nightmare, holding onto her own
:00:57. > :01:00.job seemed like a real challenge of you read today by the papers. What
:01:01. > :01:09.chance her coming to Northern Ireland, taking an interest that she
:01:10. > :01:12.Frankie hasn't shown before? The leaders are essentially exhausted,
:01:13. > :01:15.like in the 70s, government is falling apart. Theresa May coming
:01:16. > :01:19.here when shift the dynamic was a bit is clear where the issues are,
:01:20. > :01:24.this isn't like the peace process with Tony Blair, we know where the
:01:25. > :01:28.issues are, they can be resolved by imaginative thinking and the removal
:01:29. > :01:34.of hostile behaviour and deadlines, between each other. It's a fairly
:01:35. > :01:36.simple problem. Simple perhaps but intractable to.
:01:37. > :01:38.Let's pause there for a moment and take a look back
:01:39. > :01:44.at the political week gone past, with Mark Devenport.
:01:45. > :01:51.The annual 12th of July celebrations passed off without major incident.
:01:52. > :01:59.There is a huge change of atmosphere. There is a communication
:02:00. > :02:03.across the lines. We are seeing that the downward trajectory in terms of
:02:04. > :02:08.trouble and disorder has continued downwards today. There were problems
:02:09. > :02:19.on the 11th night, particularly in south Belfast. Cruise saw one
:02:20. > :02:26.appliance come under attack, very disappointing. The majority of these
:02:27. > :02:31.have passed peacefully, I have attended one myself. James
:02:32. > :02:37.Brokenshire announced he is ready to make financial decisions here.
:02:38. > :02:43.Scotland and Wales raised concerns with Michel Barnier. It is crucial
:02:44. > :02:44.that Brexit works for Wales, not just the city or some parts of the
:02:45. > :02:48.UK. Mark Devenport there -
:02:49. > :02:58.and let's have a final word Pizza, an awful lot of what happens
:02:59. > :03:06.next depends on what James Brokenshire does next. How would you
:03:07. > :03:11.rate his performance so far? I feel sympathetic for the Secretary of
:03:12. > :03:20.State, the idea of devolution was out of their hands. RHI, Irish actor
:03:21. > :03:29.and should -- Irish language, etc, the victim is the state. Broken shy
:03:30. > :03:35.had a joints when the talks collapsed -- broken shy had a choice
:03:36. > :03:38.between legislating and extending the deadline, and he did none of
:03:39. > :03:39.those things was that this week he will allocate funding. Let's see
:03:40. > :03:43.where it goes. We're back in mid-September,
:03:44. > :03:48.see you then. This is the last Sunday Politics
:03:49. > :03:51.before Parliament breaks up for the summer recess, and most MPs could
:03:52. > :03:54.definitely do with some time away from the political hothouse at
:03:55. > :03:56.Westminster. But when they come back
:03:57. > :03:58.in September, both the Conservatives and Labour face some big questions
:03:59. > :04:02.over how to win an overall majority We'll talk about that in a moment,
:04:03. > :04:07.but first let's have a look at what's been happening to Theresa May
:04:08. > :04:24.and Jeremy Corbyn since polling day And what we are saying is the
:04:25. > :04:26.Conservatives are the largest party. Note they don't have an overall
:04:27. > :04:43.majority at this stage. She who dares doesn't always win.
:04:44. > :04:47.Now let's get to work. The party that has lost in this election is
:04:48. > :04:52.the Conservative Party. The arguments they put forward in this
:04:53. > :05:00.election have lost. I think we need a change. That's not quite true,
:05:01. > :05:07.Labour is a party that lost. The Government failed and her coming
:05:08. > :05:12.over here to try to speak to... Who? Who do you want to speak to you had
:05:13. > :05:22.your chance. Now everyone will go angry and crazy.
:05:23. > :05:49.I think the public will want us to get the broadest possible consensus
:05:50. > :05:53.in looking at those issues. If the Prime Minister would like it, I am
:05:54. > :06:00.happy to furnish her with a copy of our election manifesto.
:06:01. > :06:03.You are now playing for Arsenal! The comments we were getting back that
:06:04. > :06:09.were passed on to me were that we were going to get a better results
:06:10. > :06:21.than we did. Devastated enough to shed a tear? Yes, a little tear at
:06:22. > :06:27.that moment, yes. Let's start with Mrs May. Another
:06:28. > :06:33.day, another leadership rumour, challenge. She is tired, she wants
:06:34. > :06:40.to fight on, she doesn't. Is this corrosive to her leadership? Hugely
:06:41. > :06:46.corrosive. My estimation of what's really going on in the party, and
:06:47. > :06:51.Tory MPs in Westminster, is the vast majority and by that I mean probably
:06:52. > :06:57.around 300 don't want a contest. They want her to stay and finish
:06:58. > :07:02.Brexit, see it through, because of the incredible Pandora's box that
:07:03. > :07:10.would open. Who's putting these incredible column inches in the
:07:11. > :07:15.papers? They are giant egos, they have been at this for several years
:07:16. > :07:22.if not decades and they are keen to manoeuvre themselves into the
:07:23. > :07:26.position to be the leader. In their own interests? Because most Tories I
:07:27. > :07:30.speak to think the risk of another leadership election is horrendous
:07:31. > :07:34.for them because they fear it could lead to a general election and they
:07:35. > :07:38.will lose. The ones you are talking about, they put their own
:07:39. > :07:45.self-interest above the interest of their party. Without a doubt. They
:07:46. > :07:48.are funny bunch, we know them very well, but they are simply incapable
:07:49. > :07:52.of putting their own interests underneath those of the country. The
:07:53. > :07:57.problem for Mrs May is this won't stop. They are going to carry on
:07:58. > :08:01.doing this I think unless she says something about her own leadership
:08:02. > :08:06.and conference is the time to do it. She needs to spell out a timetable
:08:07. > :08:15.for herself, when she will stay and go. She almost did that, didn't she,
:08:16. > :08:19.in her interview with you. She came very close. I agree with almost
:08:20. > :08:24.everything Thomas said, but those on the backbenches who don't want a
:08:25. > :08:30.leadership contest, it's not purely for the good of the country, there
:08:31. > :08:35.is self-interest there too and that is because they are eyeing up the
:08:36. > :08:40.top job and they need a few years to build up a following. My view is
:08:41. > :08:44.people like Boris Johnson 's and Amber Rudd for their own reasons
:08:45. > :08:52.think they stand a better chance once Brexit is done. At the moment
:08:53. > :09:02.Mr Johnson too toxic for the Remainers, Amber Rudd too toxic for
:09:03. > :09:07.the Leavers. Last time Mrs May went walking in the hills, in Wales, she
:09:08. > :09:11.came back and called an election. She's about to go walking in the
:09:12. > :09:16.Swiss mountains I understand in the weeks ahead for a break. Is there
:09:17. > :09:21.any chance she comes back and says I'm not going on with this? No
:09:22. > :09:24.because although I think being a human being she will be deeply
:09:25. > :09:28.traumatised by what's happened, and it will probably hit her more
:09:29. > :09:33.intensely when she moves away for a few days from the cocoon drama of
:09:34. > :09:37.the whole situation, you just have to keep going and she will be
:09:38. > :09:42.walking and thinking what have I done? But she is clearly trying to
:09:43. > :09:47.hold on and she's built up a new Number Ten. Almost an entire new
:09:48. > :09:51.personnel in there. She's brought Damian Green in as a deputy so
:09:52. > :09:58.there's no sign she plans to go in the short-term but leadership is
:09:59. > :10:01.partly about a spell on us and her ministers. The fact that her
:10:02. > :10:05.ministers, even in her interview when she was being robust in two
:10:06. > :10:09.years, they know that she won't fight part of the next election
:10:10. > :10:15.which means part of the spell has gone. When Tony Blair gave a date
:10:16. > :10:21.for his departure, you could feel the power losing away from him. The
:10:22. > :10:27.fact that assumption is there means this feverish speculation will carry
:10:28. > :10:31.on until she goes. Let me come on to Mr Corbyn who would seem to be in a
:10:32. > :10:36.much better position after the election. What does he now do
:10:37. > :10:40.though? Because if you cannot provoke an election quite quickly,
:10:41. > :10:46.you never know how long your day in the sun will be. But he does have a
:10:47. > :10:50.mission or he and the people around him, they want to take control of
:10:51. > :10:56.those parts of the Labour Party they don't already take control, and they
:10:57. > :10:59.will probably do it. Absolutely, so Jeremy Corbyn has established he's a
:11:00. > :11:06.very good campaigner. Everybody now agrees on that. Look at the clip, he
:11:07. > :11:10.now dresses in a white shirt and a dark suit, and he actually looks I
:11:11. > :11:18.won't say Prime Minister Arial but like he could possibly lead the
:11:19. > :11:22.whole country. -- prime ministerial. But the whole thing is built on
:11:23. > :11:27.protests, there isn't a fully established policy set up where he
:11:28. > :11:31.is ready to take over the Government if this election comes. The
:11:32. > :11:36.challenge for him is to turn the huge generation of support he's got
:11:37. > :11:41.over protest into the ability to govern. You heard from Rebecca
:11:42. > :11:46.Long-Bailey on Brexit alone, the party now admitting their policy is
:11:47. > :11:51.cake and eat it, that is not electorally satisfying. Final word
:11:52. > :11:56.from Isabel. The fact is Mr Corbyn has been a transformative figure for
:11:57. > :12:02.the Labour Party. If and when he goes, it's not going back to normal.
:12:03. > :12:08.It is transformative for the Labour Party and the country. I disagree
:12:09. > :12:12.with Tom, they put forward a more detailed programme than the
:12:13. > :12:17.Conservatives at the election and be costed it to some extent. I think to
:12:18. > :12:21.be facing two weighs on Brexit is the only place for a Leader of the
:12:22. > :12:27.Opposition to beat and he has been smart on that. Tony Blair when he
:12:28. > :12:28.was a leader faced to microwaves on single currency, outside of
:12:29. > :12:35.Parliament he single currency, outside of
:12:36. > :12:42.Parliament he seemed be more robust, but he's played it very smart. All I
:12:43. > :12:47.would say is for Brexiteers we want more Tony Blair saying it won't
:12:48. > :12:53.happen. You think he's such a toxic figure that whatever side he
:12:54. > :13:00.supports damages that side? Absolutely, yes. As a leader of an
:13:01. > :13:04.opposition party you cannot advance things. All right, we will have to
:13:05. > :13:07.leave it there. Enjoy your summer. That's all for today, and that's
:13:08. > :13:10.all from us until September. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:11. > :13:12.it's the Sunday Politics - unless it's parliament's summer
:13:13. > :13:19.recess. But for me it is thank you and
:13:20. > :13:57.goodbye. When I think of the world
:13:58. > :14:00.we inhabit, everyone will think,