:01:23. > :01:26.And on Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland - a peace rally at Belfast
:01:26. > :01:36.City Hall in response to the trouble over the past two weeks.
:01:36. > :01:36.
:01:36. > :37:20.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2144 seconds
:37:20. > :37:24.But can a way forward be found on Hello and welcome to Sunday
:37:24. > :37:27.Politics in Northern Ireland. Hundreds of people are taking part
:37:27. > :37:30.in a peace rally this morning at Belfast City Hall, after almost two
:37:30. > :37:34.weeks of loyalist protests about the council's decision to reduce
:37:34. > :37:37.the number of days it flies the union flag. Those protests are
:37:37. > :37:42.continuing despite calls from the First Minister and the Ulster
:37:42. > :37:47.Unionist leader to suspend them. So, is there a way forward on the flags
:37:47. > :37:51.issue? The leader of the PUP, Billy Hutchinson, and the Ulster Unionist
:37:51. > :38:00.MLA, Basil McCrea, are with me. And from high praise to no praise -
:38:00. > :38:04.tough times lie ahead for the Taoiseach? They made reckless
:38:04. > :38:08.promises an advance of the election. They have broken almost every
:38:08. > :38:13.promise. People feel somewhat betrayed. They thought it was going
:38:13. > :38:18.to be the dawn of a New Era. Joining me to discuss all of this
:38:18. > :38:20.is the SDLP's Conall MCDevitt and Sinn Fein's Alex Maskey. Up to a
:38:20. > :38:24.thousand people staged a protest in Belfast city centre yesterday, over
:38:25. > :38:27.the removal of the union flag from City Hall. On Friday, the leaders
:38:28. > :38:33.of the DUP and the UUP, Peter Robinson and Mike Nesbitt, repeated
:38:33. > :38:35.their call for the flag protests to stop. The two Unionist leaders say
:38:35. > :38:39.they hope to announce a new initiative that will address many
:38:39. > :38:42.of the issues raised over the next few days. With me now to discuss
:38:42. > :38:45.the continuing flags protests and the problems it has caused for the
:38:45. > :38:48.wider unionist family, are the PUP leader, Billy Hutchinson, and the
:38:48. > :38:56.Ulster Unionist MLA, Basil McCrea - who lost the party whip, of course,
:38:56. > :39:00.this week because of his stance on the issue.
:39:00. > :39:08.Billy Hutchinson, of the two main leaders in Unionism have said the
:39:08. > :39:12.protests must stop. Will they stop? I think it is up to the leaders.
:39:12. > :39:17.Leadership needs to be shown. We need to be very clear about what is
:39:17. > :39:21.happening. These are people who feel that their Britishness has
:39:22. > :39:26.ebbed away. People are quite entitled to show their fears,
:39:26. > :39:30.frustration and anger. What needs to happen is people need to
:39:30. > :39:35.redirect those into a political strategy. From my point of view,
:39:35. > :39:40.that is a job we need to do. We need to give people alternatives.
:39:40. > :39:44.Unfortunately, nobody wants to listen to what they're saying.
:39:44. > :39:49.politicians have gone to the protests and have ostensibly been
:39:49. > :39:54.there to stop violence. They say they have listened. But they also
:39:54. > :40:00.say they want them to stop. The point has been made and we need to
:40:00. > :40:10.move on. I do not know any politicians who have gone to the
:40:10. > :40:15.protests. Once the violence starts, it is very hard to stop. There have
:40:15. > :40:20.been 118 protests with no disturbances. This protest came
:40:20. > :40:24.about because a decision was taken on 3rd December. Questions have to
:40:24. > :40:28.be asked why people took that decision to remove the flag. Did
:40:28. > :40:32.they not think that people would actually protest? Did they not
:40:32. > :40:40.think people would complain? We need to ask them what their
:40:40. > :40:44.strategy was. This was a democratic decision. Councillors to voted,
:40:44. > :40:48.voted to fly the Union flag on designated days. If you are a
:40:48. > :40:54.Democrat, you have to accept that? We need to look at that process.
:40:54. > :40:59.That is what we're doing. We believe the process was illegal.
:40:59. > :41:05.Watch over the next couple of days. We will announce what we're doing.
:41:05. > :41:09.You're going to have a Jewish -- you're going to ask for a judicial
:41:09. > :41:15.review? Let's wait and see. Something will happen in the next
:41:15. > :41:19.few days. We are preparing the case. If it is as solid as I think, it
:41:19. > :41:23.will be announced next week. Surely it would have been dealt with and
:41:23. > :41:28.the vote would not have gone through? If I had listened to
:41:28. > :41:33.everybody else telling me that it was that solid, I would not be
:41:33. > :41:40.doing this. We are looking at the process and we are making sure that
:41:40. > :41:50.we feel the process was faulty. you telling me this as the leader
:41:50. > :41:56.
:41:56. > :42:01.of the PE PE, or as part of a wider Unionist family? -- the PUP. What I
:42:01. > :42:05.am telling you is I am speaking of the -- as the leader of the
:42:05. > :42:09.Progressive Unionist parties. These are British citizens in Northern
:42:09. > :42:12.Ireland to feel that something needs to be done. The ordinary
:42:12. > :42:20.people in Belfast are asking for this to happen and we will make it
:42:20. > :42:23.happen. To be absolutely clear, the developing -- the development you
:42:23. > :42:29.promise is going to take place in the next few days. Are you flying
:42:29. > :42:35.solo on that, or Au in some kind of alliance with other political
:42:35. > :42:41.leaders? The only Alliance ironing is the alliance with the people who
:42:41. > :42:47.feel aggrieved. Basil McCrea, what do you make of that? Is their any
:42:47. > :42:52.illegality in what decision was made? I do not see it. But
:42:52. > :42:55.regardless, if there is a problem with the process, all that will
:42:55. > :43:01.happen is the process will be re- run properly. The result is likely
:43:01. > :43:07.to remain the same. There is an issue for all politicians to
:43:07. > :43:13.consider. We dealt with the issue in Lisburn in 2006. We did not get
:43:13. > :43:17.the same sort of backlash. He is also part of the storm and
:43:17. > :43:21.arrangements. Everybody voted for it. Designated days appears to be
:43:22. > :43:26.the appropriate way to go forward. What is damaging is that people
:43:26. > :43:31.have tried to say that this is a loss of Britishness. This is not.
:43:31. > :43:35.This is an agreed way forward that protects British interests. Billy
:43:35. > :43:43.Hutchinson is clearly of the view that you are frankly out of touch
:43:43. > :43:50.with grass roots unionism? Let me say it quite clear it. The last two
:43:50. > :43:53.weeks have been a complete and utter disaster for Unionism. Also,
:43:53. > :43:57.the traders are Belfast and Northern Ireland. Whatever the
:43:57. > :44:03.grievances, the damage has been immense. There has to be a better
:44:03. > :44:08.way of dealing with the issue. I do not doubt that people have concerns.
:44:08. > :44:12.But you deal with it in a different way. With the greatest respect, you
:44:12. > :44:16.are hopelessly out of touch not just with grassroots Unionism, but
:44:16. > :44:21.with mainstream Ulster Unionist thinking. You're a member of the
:44:21. > :44:26.party but you're outside the party group. You had the whip withdrawn
:44:26. > :44:30.because you could not behave yourself. I didn't think I am out
:44:30. > :44:35.of step. You are out of step with the Ulster Unionist Party at
:44:35. > :44:39.Stormont. My view is the vast majority of people in Northern
:44:39. > :44:43.Ireland want an agreed way forward, one that respect everybody's
:44:43. > :44:48.traditions, one that does not bring people onto the street. That is
:44:48. > :44:57.what I was articulating. Why did 1000 people turn up and fell past
:44:57. > :45:01.today? That is not representative of the whole of Northern Ireland.
:45:01. > :45:06.The failure of politics in Northern Ireland, and this is really serious,
:45:06. > :45:11.is that many politicians say one thing to some people and one thing
:45:11. > :45:15.else to other people. It is time for a shared future. A way forward
:45:15. > :45:18.means you have to have dialogue, you have to have a way of reaching
:45:18. > :45:23.a consensus. You have to work out your differences. It does not get
:45:23. > :45:32.sorted by bringing people at onto the streets. What is your response
:45:32. > :45:37.to Basil McCrea, Billy Hutchinson? You do not read present the
:45:37. > :45:45.majority opinion in the hall of Northern Ireland? -- represent.
:45:45. > :45:50.think Basel is out of touch. The difficulty is that it is about
:45:50. > :45:56.everything else. Nobody is saying that we should not have compromised.
:45:56. > :46:03.What people are saying is that they should not have surrender.
:46:03. > :46:08.agreed to the flag position. I have stated my position. I believe what
:46:08. > :46:11.we need to do is to have a society in which we all can share. But the
:46:11. > :46:18.difficulty at the moment is that we have dissident Republican activity
:46:18. > :46:23.and we have Sinn Fein role outside the spirit of the Good Friday
:46:23. > :46:29.Agreement. There was no need to do this on 3rd December. It is in the
:46:29. > :46:37.third year of a tower of the city Council. When you were a Belfast
:46:37. > :46:41.city Councillor you actually supported the flying of the flag.
:46:41. > :46:45.My argument is that we support a designated days on the basis that
:46:45. > :46:49.we were involved in a process. I have to say to you, the behaviour
:46:49. > :46:52.of Republicans on the street has changed my attitude. Also joining
:46:52. > :46:55.us in the Sunday Politics studio, the SDLP's Conall McDevitt and Sinn
:46:55. > :47:00.Fein's Alex Maskey. If the responsibility for what has
:47:00. > :47:06.happened in the past two weeks lies anywhere, many people would argue
:47:06. > :47:09.it lies at your feet in Sinn Fein for bringing the issue to the
:47:09. > :47:13.Council four weeks before Christmas? That is totally
:47:13. > :47:17.incorrect. This issue has been discussed at Belfast City Council
:47:17. > :47:22.for several years. Yes, Sinn Fein has continued, as we have always
:47:22. > :47:27.said very openly, we want to make sure we have a society here and
:47:27. > :47:32.Government institutions which reflect what the people here
:47:32. > :47:38.represent. The city Council has never fully represent all of the
:47:38. > :47:44.people of Belfast. By a look what you have done now. You have popped
:47:44. > :47:49.up a hornet's nest. All the Unionist parties supported Peter
:47:49. > :47:53.Mandelson when he imposed this legislation about designated days.
:47:54. > :47:57.What I'm saying is that Belfast City Council have been discussing
:47:57. > :48:01.this is used -- issue for years. They have never once offered a
:48:01. > :48:05.compromise to the rest of the people in the city. As far as I'm
:48:05. > :48:13.concerned, Sinn Fein was prepared to accept a compromise to fly the
:48:13. > :48:17.flag. There is No Irish National fight on that City Hall. Unless
:48:17. > :48:22.Belfast City Council begins to fly an Irish national flag on
:48:22. > :48:25.designated days, we still do not have equality. Can you imagine the
:48:25. > :48:31.response you are going to have from Billy Hutchinson and others if you
:48:31. > :48:35.seriously suggest that? Why not? When I put the Irish flag and the
:48:35. > :48:45.the British flag in the Lord Mayor's Parlour, everybody wanted a
:48:45. > :48:47.
:48:47. > :48:53.photograph taken at the flag of their choice. There is differences.
:48:54. > :49:01.In 1998, we agreed the Good Friday Agreement. It was about Parity and
:49:01. > :49:05.esteem. We still have not got that. How do we manifest equality to the
:49:05. > :49:11.Irish nationalists? Of do you want to develop that conversation
:49:11. > :49:19.further into flying the try colour of a Belfast City Hall? -- the
:49:19. > :49:23.tricolour. Has enough damage being done? Actually getting what this
:49:23. > :49:28.past week proves is that there are two conversations that need to take
:49:28. > :49:33.place at regional level. The first is about reconciliation. That means
:49:33. > :49:38.facing up to the past, the British Army, paramilitaries, everybody's
:49:38. > :49:43.role. The second is about identity. What do we know about Adem to be
:49:43. > :49:46.this week? We did not learn it from the protesters. We know this is the
:49:46. > :49:49.region of minorities and it is a city of minorities. What we all
:49:49. > :49:53.have to do in the political class is move beyond flags in terms of
:49:53. > :49:57.them being the only thing that could possibly represent identity,
:49:57. > :50:03.and start having the courage to face up to the fact that yes, and
:50:03. > :50:07.many are Irish. Many are Irish and Northern and proud to be. Very many
:50:07. > :50:12.are British. Others do not want to be part of either a national
:50:12. > :50:17.identity. Our politics and identity should be big enough and strong
:50:17. > :50:21.enough to be able to put that at the heart of it. To make that the
:50:21. > :50:28.basis for reconciliation. That is the difficulty. As soon as you
:50:28. > :50:34.raise the issue of removing the Union flag to designated days, look
:50:34. > :50:38.what happens. You have thousands of loyalists Adam the streets. This
:50:39. > :50:43.Irish nationalist is not going to surrender to any flag driven agenda.
:50:43. > :50:53.I'm not going to surrender to a type of politics that reduces this
:50:53. > :50:59.place to some sort of stand-off between two tribes. Your party
:50:59. > :51:04.agreed with that. What is your decision? Eyes and saying that as
:51:04. > :51:08.politicians we need to move beyond this. -- I am saying. This is not
:51:08. > :51:13.the issue. The issue is reconciliation. It is about the
:51:13. > :51:17.past and the future. Billy Hutchinson, does this conversation
:51:17. > :51:22.not raise the serious possibility that designated days Brenkley looks
:51:22. > :51:32.like a pretty good deal for Unionists in Belfast, where they
:51:32. > :51:35.
:51:35. > :51:39.are a minority? What I would like to make clear to people is that the
:51:39. > :51:44.flag they are referring to his IF lack of the Republic of Ireland.
:51:44. > :51:49.The Republic of Ireland signed to the Good Friday Agreement. They did
:51:49. > :51:54.away with articles 2 and 3. They agreed that Northern Ireland was a
:51:54. > :51:59.part of the United Kingdom. Whether you like it or not, people in this
:51:59. > :52:08.city of their allegiance to that flag. We are not arguing about this.
:52:08. > :52:17.This is a flag of this region. This is part of the United Kingdom and
:52:17. > :52:23.that is a fact. Let me finish. remain in the UK as long as the
:52:23. > :52:29.majority of people wish to be. I respect that. My party invented
:52:29. > :52:37.that principle. That does not make us all British. It does not make
:52:37. > :52:40.this city British. Let's hear what Billy has to say. What we need to
:52:40. > :52:44.do is find a way forward were both British and Irish people can share
:52:45. > :52:48.this city. The difficulty with this is, that will not be done while
:52:48. > :52:58.other people are talking about Brits out and wanted to remove
:52:58. > :52:59.
:52:59. > :53:05.flags. What people are insisting on is that we want to see how we move
:53:05. > :53:13.forward. People are saying that this cannot be enforced upon them.
:53:13. > :53:21.This came three years into a term. It is not a coincidence that it is
:53:21. > :53:27.done in the year of 100 years. It is not a coincidence it was done in
:53:27. > :53:32.the birthplace of Unionism. It was done to antagonise. It sounds
:53:32. > :53:41.Machiavellian. That is the Sinn Fein agenda. Is there a any trick
:53:41. > :53:49.in that? There is absolutely not. Every time Sinn Fein's -- Sinn Fein
:53:49. > :53:54.puts a position forward, we are accused of being more hardline.
:53:54. > :53:58.When I was in Belfast city Council actually established a good
:53:58. > :54:03.relations initiative. How do we take initiatives to show that this
:54:03. > :54:07.is an issue much more than flags? Thankfully the city Council has
:54:07. > :54:13.moved on quite considerably. An investment plan agreed by all the
:54:13. > :54:16.parties. The Council has not grasped the nettle yet. Basil's
:54:16. > :54:22.party used to run the state. Now they have three councillors in
:54:22. > :54:26.Belfast. Things have changed. What Billy's party needs to do and
:54:26. > :54:30.Basil's former party needs to do, is sit down with all of the parties
:54:31. > :54:35.and work out how we reflected symbols and emblems in this society
:54:35. > :54:45.which reflect all of us. The issue of moral culture has gone. The
:54:45. > :54:51.issue of domination is over. -- monoculture. What does parity of
:54:51. > :54:56.esteem a mean? Would it not have made sense for a Sinn Fein to have
:54:56. > :55:01.talked directly to Unionists and to loyalists, to try to prepare the
:55:01. > :55:08.way for what is clearly a huge sea change in their perception of their
:55:08. > :55:12.city? This debate has been going on in the city Council for at least
:55:12. > :55:20.this particular -- at least this particular debate has been going on
:55:20. > :55:30.for months. 40,000 leaflets were set out on a flight is used in
:55:30. > :55:35.Belfast. There is no surprise in this discussion and debate. This
:55:35. > :55:39.has been going on for months and for years? Listen. What I am saying
:55:39. > :55:43.is that people need to recognise that this debate is not taking
:55:43. > :55:48.place in a post complex society. People think we have dealt with the
:55:48. > :55:53.past. We're not dealing with it. Because we have not dealt with the
:55:53. > :55:57.past. Until we deal with the past we can appear with the future.
:55:57. > :56:01.Would you allow us to enter a position where we can open up the
:56:01. > :56:11.Pandora's box that is the past without having a repeat of last
:56:11. > :56:13.
:56:13. > :56:21.week's events? That is where we need to get there. Not only do we
:56:21. > :56:25.need reconciliation. We need to ensure that people are involved and
:56:26. > :56:30.they know what reconciliation means. That has to be done in working-
:56:30. > :56:36.class areas irrespective of religion. A final point from Basil
:56:36. > :56:40.McCrea. Designated days was the agreed policy of all of the pop --
:56:40. > :56:44.parties at Stormont. That is the way forward. It should be in all
:56:44. > :56:49.councils, including the 11 in the west of the problems that do not
:56:49. > :56:52.fly the flag. We should extend it. There is an issue about engaging.
:56:52. > :57:02.But politics will solve these issues, not bringing people onto
:57:02. > :57:04.
:57:04. > :57:08.the streets. Now now look back of the week.
:57:09. > :57:14.-- at the week. And your report into Pat Finnegan's murder said
:57:14. > :57:18.there was no overarching state conspiracy, a finding described as
:57:18. > :57:24.a sham by his family. Peter has been swept under the carpet without
:57:24. > :57:27.any serious attempt to lift the lid on what has happened. The census
:57:27. > :57:33.revealed the narrowing gap between the number of Catholics and
:57:33. > :57:38.President -- Protestants and an unclear issue about national
:57:38. > :57:44.identity. I am a father, son, brother, uncle. I'm also a
:57:44. > :57:47.vegetarian. Basil McCrea criticised the Ulster Unionist position on the
:57:47. > :57:54.flag at Stormont. We have been dragged through the gutter with
:57:54. > :58:04.these protests. We do have to find a better political solution. Back
:58:04. > :58:20.
:58:20. > :58:28.We have not got time for the report on Enda Kenny. We will bring it to
:58:28. > :58:31.you in the New Year. A quick response. The other big news of the
:58:31. > :58:36.week was the report into the murder of Pat Finnegan. What should happen
:58:36. > :58:40.now? There should be a public inquiry. Even beyond that what we
:58:40. > :58:45.need is a process to deal with the truth. The fact there was
:58:45. > :58:51.corruption at the heart of the security services. That the UDA was
:58:51. > :58:55.basically the assassination wing of the Special Branch. I think of the
:58:55. > :58:59.British Government thought this report would negate the argument
:58:59. > :59:09.for a public inquiry they were badly mistaken. The scale of the
:59:09. > :59:11.
:59:12. > :59:19.level of collusion and activity... That will De Gea question for a
:59:19. > :59:26.public inquiry. There does need to be more of the truth process.
:59:26. > :59:31.you surprised at the sheer level of collusion uncovered? Yes I was. But
:59:31. > :59:36.I will also put it in context. I think the gentle man opposite me to
:59:36. > :59:40.understand. We were in a very bad place in those days. We have to
:59:40. > :59:47.find a better way going forward than making cons like that. We need
:59:48. > :59:52.a solution. The one thing about this is that people keep talking
:59:52. > :59:56.about collusion. What be do not care about is collusion with the
:59:56. > :00:00.Republicans in terms of people who acted as agents and were working on
:00:00. > :00:06.the other side. We need to remember that we cannot afford to have
:00:06. > :00:10.inquiries. Basil McCrea, when you return after the Christmas break