:01:29. > :01:35.Coming up: A defining week for the Ulster unionist as they back a
:01:35. > :01:45.unity candidate but lose two senior MLAs. We will hear from the party
:01:45. > :01:45.
:01:45. > :37:12.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2126 seconds
:37:12. > :37:15.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. To
:37:15. > :37:18.lose one MLA may be regarded as a misfortune, but to lose two within
:37:18. > :37:21.two days looks like carelessness. What does the future hold for the
:37:21. > :37:26.Ulster Unionists? I will be talking to Mike Nesbitt about the week that
:37:26. > :37:30.shook his party. Westminster agrees to keep political donations a
:37:30. > :37:33.secret here but have MPs missed a chance for more open politics? And
:37:33. > :37:41.with their thoughts on all those issues and more, I am joined by
:37:41. > :37:45.Sheila Davidson and Steven McCaffery.
:37:45. > :37:48.If we have to shrink to grow we will, the words of the Ulster
:37:48. > :37:51.Unionist leader, Mike Nesbitt, back in December. And at the end of this
:37:51. > :37:53.week his party lost two senior members, its former deputy leader,
:37:53. > :37:58.John McCallister, and the Basil McCrea. Both cited the unveiling of
:37:58. > :38:00.a united unionist candidate in Mid- Ulster as the tipping point. So
:38:00. > :38:10.where does that double departure leave the party now? Mike Nesbitt
:38:10. > :38:13.is with me. Your critics might say the first part of that strategy of
:38:13. > :38:21.shrinking to grow is going very well. It does look like that,
:38:21. > :38:27.doesn't it? And it was an inevitability. It was inevitable
:38:27. > :38:33.that these two gentlemen would leave. It was a pity it was not on
:38:33. > :38:38.the top of the news agenda. The seniors make a very good decision
:38:38. > :38:46.in terms of the violation. When there is a political election, what
:38:46. > :38:55.do I want? I want an all-star Unionist to win the seat. -- All
:38:55. > :38:59.Star Yunus wrist. I would prefer some sort of Unionist to win. It
:38:59. > :39:07.would maximise those chances. You have to put up a single candidate.
:39:07. > :39:16.The decision was made by the Association. They unanimously
:39:16. > :39:24.backed Nigel. That was a political decision. You have said that the
:39:24. > :39:29.chance of winning the seat is pretty slim. But there is a
:39:29. > :39:39.possibility. I resent people saying that this is a sectarian headcount,
:39:39. > :39:41.
:39:41. > :39:47.as if a Catholic wouldn't possibly vote for Nigel. A of idea what they
:39:47. > :39:52.get has to be an emotional debate and I am not sure it will be. I
:39:52. > :39:57.would say to Nigel that he does not have the right to stand or mention
:39:57. > :40:07.the fact that his father were murdered. There were many Catholics
:40:07. > :40:19.
:40:19. > :40:22.and Protestants who would not mind someone speaking up for them.
:40:22. > :40:30.Elliott, your predecessor as leader, said on Friday, a lot of what Basil
:40:30. > :40:36.said I can agree with. It is clearly not about policy. John,
:40:36. > :40:43.after the leadership election, was offered the opportunity to bring
:40:43. > :40:50.foreheads a think tank. He was talking about bringing in people
:40:50. > :40:58.from different parties and I was concerned with all of this. --
:40:58. > :41:08.content with all of this. They did not meet once and the last 11
:41:08. > :41:15.
:41:15. > :41:22.months. Bylaw has said that you did not communicate with him. -- Basil.
:41:22. > :41:32.One of the first things I did after I was elected was spent 90p ornate
:41:32. > :41:33.
:41:33. > :41:43.door jamb. My door is always open. -- ornate door jamb. The last and
:41:43. > :41:52.
:41:52. > :41:54.we did it, 14 or 15 turned up. Who did not? Basil. In his no-holds
:41:54. > :41:56.barred letter of resignation on Thursday, John McCallister claimed
:41:56. > :41:58.you have abandoned pluralist and progressive pro-Union politics for
:41:58. > :42:02.a backward-looking, insular politics. He says you're determined
:42:02. > :42:04.to act in concert with the DUP and you've opted to become Peter
:42:04. > :42:12.Robinson's junior partner. How do you respond to that critique?
:42:12. > :42:17.is his opinion and he is wrong. doesn't think he is wrong. The fact
:42:17. > :42:25.that he has left the party is probably good news. So you welcome
:42:25. > :42:31.the fact that he has gone? People are saying that I am embattled and
:42:31. > :42:40.I am liberated today. A It Was the Week That shook the Ulster Unionist
:42:40. > :42:50.Party. You lost five leading figures in the party. At we will be
:42:50. > :42:57.
:42:57. > :43:04.stronger. -- and we will be stronger. We have a man shot. For -
:43:04. > :43:08.- we have a man trough. Country's first and politics second. We need
:43:08. > :43:13.to present a united front to the electorate and that was never going
:43:13. > :43:23.to happen. Goodbye and good riddance as far as you are
:43:23. > :43:31.
:43:31. > :43:41.concerned? Just goodbye. At one point, David my Mario said that
:43:41. > :43:41.
:43:41. > :43:45.there were five MLAs he were going to jump ship. He said that five and
:43:45. > :43:55.always were going to jump ship and nobody jumped ship. Nobody has come
:43:55. > :44:07.
:44:07. > :44:12.to me to say that they are unhappy. We had the young Unionist
:44:12. > :44:20.conference recently. We had a business breakfast. I do not think
:44:20. > :44:24.we got the responses that we wanted. Why it does that tell you? We are
:44:24. > :44:29.experiencing with different things. It is not a big deal. We are is the
:44:29. > :44:36.evidence of your progress of policies on flags and berates and
:44:36. > :44:45.things that separate the Ulster Unionist Party from the DUP.
:44:45. > :44:51.way to do it and bring it forward is things like MLA away-days. The
:44:51. > :44:56.last time the executive Matt, John and basil turned up, and they did
:44:56. > :45:00.not support the position of the councillors unanimously, and then
:45:00. > :45:05.they came up with a policy from the teen years ago and said it was
:45:05. > :45:15.policy. Once the executive may that scission on 8th December 1920 top,
:45:15. > :45:20.
:45:20. > :45:25.that was policy. There is a difference between cooperation with
:45:25. > :45:30.the DUP and becoming a wholly-owned subsidiary. The elections will be
:45:30. > :45:36.the test. Stephen, you have followed this very closely and have
:45:36. > :45:41.written about it on a website. What do you make of the significance of
:45:41. > :45:46.what happens within the Ulster Unionist Party in the last week?
:45:46. > :45:53.think Mike has hit on the key point at the moment, saying that he pills
:45:53. > :45:56.liberated. This is just the beginning of a major problem. They
:45:56. > :46:01.have lost to a high-profile representatives. They could not
:46:01. > :46:06.really afford to do that. These guys are now going to be competing
:46:06. > :46:11.for votes, and they're going to hammer home a series of messages.
:46:11. > :46:18.What is the difference between the DUP and the DUP? Adding everyone
:46:18. > :46:28.has noticed that that is a question -- I think of UN has it that is a
:46:28. > :46:29.
:46:29. > :46:35.question that Basil has been asking. I think what journalists are
:46:35. > :46:41.hearing and I think... When that question is asked, there is not a
:46:41. > :46:45.response. It sounds a little tremor, and it feeds into the hands of
:46:45. > :46:48.anxieties you have spoken about which feeds speculation that there
:46:48. > :46:54.are people in the party who are not happy and are concerned about where
:46:54. > :47:01.this will lead. You deal in the world of crisis management. Any
:47:01. > :47:05.advice for Mike? I do not think so. He is well experienced. You deal
:47:05. > :47:11.with things that happen in political parties in the same way
:47:11. > :47:20.you might do with business. One of the things that is very difficult
:47:20. > :47:25.is the Unionism itself. I think there is not a cigarette paper
:47:25. > :47:29.between the two parties and that is the big issue that there is. There
:47:29. > :47:36.is an element here where we need to get honest about where Jeanine
:47:36. > :47:41.isn't itself... Quite -- where Unionism itself... Were all of the
:47:41. > :47:45.people who want to consider themselves Yunus... And I do not
:47:45. > :47:51.think that they are articulating the breadth that there could be out
:47:51. > :48:00.there. Peter Robinson made it very clear when he was talking on Friday
:48:00. > :48:06.that he had this is not a one-off. There are we going to see more
:48:06. > :48:10.candidates in places like East Belfast and South Belfast? I would
:48:10. > :48:20.be foolish to answer that question. Let's see how the next three weeks
:48:20. > :48:24.ago. Will we play nice? Will it work for the benefit of Unionism?
:48:24. > :48:32.It is definitely not being ruled out? Be would be foolish to rule
:48:32. > :48:35.anything out. -- it would be foolish to rule anything out.
:48:35. > :48:40.Sheila makes a good point about their not being a cigarette paper
:48:40. > :48:47.between us. If the DUP proves us to be right, that is something to
:48:47. > :48:57.celebrate. But there are big differences. We disagree over the
:48:57. > :49:02.
:49:02. > :49:12.way that's lots of things are being handled. A win every Unionist sit
:49:12. > :49:13.
:49:13. > :49:21.down -- when ever Unionists said I will have half a pint of what
:49:21. > :49:27.you're having! Were newness decide if they are going to vote, it is
:49:27. > :49:32.bigger issues about the union that determines it. An absolutely
:49:32. > :49:36.critical when people think about who they are going to support his,
:49:36. > :49:46.by the United, are they a strong and united team? And we have not
:49:46. > :49:48.
:49:48. > :49:58.been for a long time. We will leave it there. Pinkie very much indeed.
:49:58. > :50:03.
:50:03. > :50:13.-- thank you very much. Pollet is - a grubby politicians arrives at a
:50:13. > :50:16.
:50:16. > :50:25.funeral and Londonderry. informed party leader, I informs
:50:25. > :50:31.them that I would resign. horsemeat controversy continues.
:50:31. > :50:36.The employment minister announced plans for or education. And
:50:36. > :50:46.attention at Stormont as a former fire chiefs faced a grilling over
:50:46. > :50:46.
:50:46. > :50:56.financial irregularities. You said the report was wrong? The gas.
:50:56. > :51:03.
:51:03. > :51:06.yes. We would like to wish you a It had the potential to change the
:51:06. > :51:10.shape and size of the Assembly and put in place the framework for a
:51:10. > :51:13.formal Opposition. But in the end, after public consultation, the
:51:13. > :51:16.Draft Northern Ireland Bill includes no plans for a major
:51:16. > :51:18.shake-up of Assembly structures. A ban on double-jobbing is in the
:51:18. > :51:22.draft law published by the Secretary of State, Theresa
:51:22. > :51:29.Villiers. It also extends anonymity to those donating to political
:51:29. > :51:32.parties until at least September 2014. With me to discuss this, Sinn
:51:32. > :51:40.Fein's West Belfast MP, Paul Maskey, and Nigel Dodds, the DUP for North
:51:40. > :51:43.Belfast. Is it a damp squib? There is not much in it. We would have
:51:43. > :51:47.preferred more legislation which could have reduced the number of
:51:47. > :51:51.government departments. That is something we have been advocating
:51:51. > :51:56.for 10 years or more. We realise that the Government are saying that
:51:56. > :51:59.they need a consensus but it is not there. We will continue to advocate
:51:59. > :52:05.smaller and more efficient government because we think that is
:52:05. > :52:11.what people want. We hope we will get parties in that position in the
:52:11. > :52:16.future. This issue will be dealt with for two days at the end of
:52:16. > :52:20.February, so there could be changes. Certainly, the government in
:52:20. > :52:24.Westminster does not want to take the lead on some of these issues.
:52:24. > :52:30.They are saying that it is up to the assembly parties to agree. I am
:52:30. > :52:34.not against that principle. We will work at this and the remaining time
:52:35. > :52:44.before the legislation gets into the House of Commons in order to
:52:44. > :52:48.try and advance that. The numbers will not be reduced automatically
:52:48. > :52:58.and I think there is an opportunity for us to work together and try to
:52:58. > :53:01.
:53:01. > :53:11.bring it into the bill. We are very much for that. I think Sinn Fein
:53:11. > :53:13.
:53:13. > :53:23.are the only party to do so. We have an action on 7th March. The
:53:23. > :53:31.
:53:31. > :53:35.rest of our four MPs will have seats on the assembly. I hope that
:53:35. > :53:45.our party set up to the mark because I do not think it is a good
:53:45. > :53:48.
:53:48. > :53:52.enough to have two different clubs of legislation. At least there is a
:53:52. > :54:02.move in the direction you want to see. We are have been arguing for
:54:02. > :54:09.years. We have been saying it is far too high. It needs to be
:54:09. > :54:15.reduced, certainly down to 100. A needs to be at least under �100,000.
:54:15. > :54:23.It needs to be less than �7,000. We have argued that for her and number
:54:23. > :54:27.of years now. All of the parties a to be ensuring that there is
:54:27. > :54:37.accountability and Trust garden with and the citizens. Why are you
:54:37. > :54:39.
:54:39. > :54:43.supposed to that level of transparency? The SDLP and Sinn
:54:43. > :54:53.Fein have come on board after we started the process. .. Ing is
:54:53. > :54:53.
:54:53. > :55:00.about doing your job. -- double jobbing. They take all of the money
:55:00. > :55:06.but they do not take the seat. Speaking of donations, it is 7,500
:55:06. > :55:11.in terms of donations to the party and �15,000 if you are damaging to
:55:11. > :55:16.members. Those are the figures. We are in favour of moving to as much
:55:16. > :55:22.transparency as we can as quickly as possible. The SDLP and the
:55:22. > :55:26.Electoral Commission have a political axe to grind. They have
:55:26. > :55:31.said that it was still dangerous, and we have seen that highlighted
:55:31. > :55:36.in recent times, with threats and attacks against elected
:55:36. > :55:42.representatives. We are seeing the difficulties that remain in and out
:55:42. > :55:50.of context and until that situation becomes clearer, it remains a
:55:50. > :55:54.danger to donors potentially. The other point about the UK donation,
:55:54. > :56:01.Northern Ireland has an exceptional position, where people who are not
:56:01. > :56:06.citizens or residents of the United Kingdom can donate to parties and
:56:06. > :56:13.that is a loophole that needs to be closed. Other parties are agreed
:56:13. > :56:16.with the DUP on this issue. Also, there is a threat, a discernible
:56:16. > :56:19.threat from dissident republicans to people who might represent
:56:19. > :56:23.certain political parties in Northern Ireland at the moment.
:56:23. > :56:33.have heard that argument over the last couple of years and I think it
:56:33. > :56:34.
:56:34. > :56:39.is absurd and estate full. -- I think political parties have to
:56:39. > :56:43.be able to raise finances to find their campaigns, but I also believe
:56:43. > :56:49.quite strongly that there needs to be accountability, because you need
:56:49. > :56:59.to build the confidence up with the boaters and the electorate. --
:56:59. > :56:59.
:56:59. > :57:07.rotors. Home you are leaving yourself open two more questions. I
:57:07. > :57:13.do not think there is a threat there. Every party should put up
:57:13. > :57:17.the people who donate. And why not say to the donors that their names
:57:17. > :57:21.will be published so you decide whether or not you support the
:57:21. > :57:29.political party? The electoral commission looked into this. They
:57:29. > :57:33.are not political party orientated in any way or shape. In the current
:57:33. > :57:37.context, they decided it was right to try to move towards
:57:37. > :57:42.liberalisation and moved towards transparency. The conditions were
:57:42. > :57:45.not quite right yet for a full openness and transparency. We have
:57:45. > :57:53.seen the evidence of threats against political parties in recent
:57:53. > :57:57.months. That's could go on indefinitely. We could say that we
:57:57. > :58:01.are hoping to make progress on that, but we have seen that there are
:58:01. > :58:04.people who are determined to try to threaten politicians and the
:58:04. > :58:08.political process. We have said very clearly that as well as
:58:08. > :58:13.dealing with transparent the, you have got to deal with the loophole
:58:13. > :58:19.that allows people who are not even residents of the United Kingdom to
:58:19. > :58:23.influence party politics and donate to political parties. That is a lot
:58:23. > :58:33.at the United Kingdom and every other democracy. Sinn Fein and
:58:33. > :58:41.other parties can benefit from that. Why should that be the case? When a
:58:41. > :58:47.mega, of Friends of Sinn Fein will raise -- in America, friends of
:58:47. > :58:52.Sinn Fein will raise the money for the party. We put on our website
:58:53. > :59:00.north and south of the border. Other parties do not do that. We
:59:00. > :59:08.are raising money and all of our accounts are put on the hour -- and
:59:08. > :59:12.all of Our accounts are put out in the open. How do you view the
:59:12. > :59:18.situation? The message that is being sent out is a pretty negative
:59:18. > :59:24.one. I am deeply upset that that football match did not go ahead and
:59:24. > :59:29.buy what to pay credit to Crusaders and Cliftonville as well as
:59:29. > :59:34.everyone who worked hard to get an agreement. They had reached an
:59:34. > :59:38.agreement but unfortunately the events do not go ahead and do think
:59:38. > :59:43.it is a sad day for North Belfast and a sad day for football. We will
:59:43. > :59:48.be thinking -- working to move things forward. There are reports
:59:48. > :59:53.of heavy handed policing. One of our councillors was hurt and a