:01:35. > :01:39.And in Northern Ireland, it is four years since the 11-Plus was
:01:39. > :01:49.abolished so why are thousands of children still sitting a transfer
:01:49. > :01:49.
:01:49. > :41:28.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2379 seconds
:41:28. > :41:31.test? We hear from the Education Hello and welcome to Sunday
:41:32. > :41:36.politics in Northern Ireland. Another weekend of transfer tests
:41:36. > :41:39.for children across the country, we ask the Education Minister if it is
:41:39. > :41:43.failing when it is come to phasing out selection.
:41:43. > :41:49.Jim Allister used his party's conference in Cookstown to launch
:41:49. > :41:59.attacks on Sinn Fein and DUP, and joining us to discuss education and
:41:59. > :42:03.more, Sir Ken Bloomfield with David Lambon and the former principal of
:42:03. > :42:07.Ashfield Girls, Adeline Dinsmore. It is four years since the 11-Plus
:42:08. > :42:11.was abolished but yesterday 7,000 pupils at one of the two transfer
:42:11. > :42:15.tests. The number of children taking the unofficial Tests
:42:15. > :42:18.increased this year and that is despite pressure from the Education
:42:18. > :42:22.Minister and the Catholic Church to phase out selection. Is it time to
:42:22. > :42:27.take stock and consider reintroducing a single Test as some
:42:27. > :42:31.are suggesting? The Education Minister John O'Dowd is with us now.
:42:31. > :42:35.Minister, good morning. Thank you for joining us. The Ulster
:42:35. > :42:41.Unionists have suggested he should use one agreed test for a two year
:42:41. > :42:45.period to buy yourself time to resolve the issue. Good idea?
:42:45. > :42:49.That is a retrograde step. This debate did not start four years ago,
:42:49. > :42:53.it started 50 years ago and on every occasion where a compromise
:42:53. > :43:00.was offered, they have avoided dealing with the main issue. There
:43:00. > :43:03.is no need for academic selection in this day. I do not know how you
:43:03. > :43:09.verify the those figures of more figures taking the test this year
:43:10. > :43:15.than previous years. The fat is I do not know where regulation comes
:43:15. > :43:22.in. Speculation in the media that many children sit both sets of
:43:22. > :43:28.Tests soap in my it point all of you, a selection test is
:43:28. > :43:32.unnecessary. A 1% rise in the demand for Test in the same time
:43:32. > :43:40.that the... Over the past four years, the figures have gone up 5%.
:43:40. > :43:44.I do not know how close the figures are verified but I think one of
:43:44. > :43:48.these tests is a necessary. It is not about the established --
:43:48. > :43:54.establishing the ability of the child. A test at that age will not
:43:54. > :43:56.establish the ability of any child. If we are serious about progress in
:43:56. > :44:01.the young people through educational pathways into adulthood
:44:01. > :44:06.and moving on, the way of doing that is through an increasing
:44:06. > :44:10.education system. The majority of our post primary schools do that
:44:10. > :44:17.but we never look at those children who are not sitting the tests and
:44:17. > :44:22.their parents are as influential as anyone else and those schools that
:44:22. > :44:32.do not set selective tests are as influential as those that do set
:44:32. > :44:34.
:44:34. > :44:38.test. I do not know whether we will solve the issue of whether they are
:44:38. > :44:43.a good or bad idea so let's not attempt to do that but let's try to
:44:43. > :44:46.pick our way forward from the position we are in now which is a
:44:46. > :44:51.difficult one. You wanted to get rid of selection and you actually
:44:51. > :44:54.were not able to do that because like it or not, selection is
:44:54. > :44:57.continuing and the question you must answer as minister for
:44:57. > :45:02.education is where do we go from here? You do not like selection but
:45:02. > :45:05.people like Sir Ken Bloomfield and those who are part of the grammar
:45:05. > :45:10.school system want it to continue. We must answer the first question
:45:10. > :45:15.before moving on to the second. you have moved on and scrapped it
:45:15. > :45:18.before you have answered that. have to establish whether you need
:45:19. > :45:24.academic selection for good education? Those leading the
:45:24. > :45:28.economy is tell us we do not. Why do we continue it? Because a
:45:28. > :45:34.minority of schools insist that they do it. And if I look at the
:45:34. > :45:40.figures available to my department, many accepted that all the pupils
:45:40. > :45:48.who applied to them, those that used tests. It is a clever
:45:48. > :45:52.marketing device. All schools now teach to the same curriculum and
:45:52. > :45:59.have to become tied to the framework will stop good education
:45:59. > :46:02.to the young people is for the good of them. How do you stop the
:46:02. > :46:07.grammar schools' continuing with selection despite your insistence
:46:07. > :46:17.that it is not a good idea? They do not accept that. And how do you
:46:17. > :46:22.
:46:22. > :46:29.deal with the parents to put their Were have to convince parents that
:46:29. > :46:35.there is no need for selective systems. But 64 percentage of
:46:35. > :46:38.children in p 7 by doing the tests this year. In may be that some kids
:46:38. > :46:43.to both sets of exams but as I understand these figures are
:46:43. > :46:46.official. Constantly the media tell me that children are sitting five
:46:46. > :46:50.tests but if they are doing that they have to do the double exams
:46:50. > :46:55.but let's concentrate on the main issue. Many children do not put
:46:55. > :46:58.their children through the test. Many pupils do not sit a test and
:46:58. > :47:04.there are many schools out there providing excellent education which
:47:04. > :47:08.do not have tests. By that is not a problem, the problem is the
:47:08. > :47:13.school's wedded to selection. ignore that section of our
:47:13. > :47:20.education system with this debate, and we do not talk about education
:47:20. > :47:25.in its totality of. Education is about this, not asking in charge at
:47:25. > :47:29.the age of 11... It is about asking them how they are clever and then
:47:29. > :47:32.putting them in school. What do you say to people like Sir Ken
:47:32. > :47:37.Bloomfield to persuade him that he has got it wrong? With respect to
:47:37. > :47:41.him, we will never agree with this. He has his bees and I have mine but
:47:41. > :47:45.what we need to do is this is those parents who do have concerns about
:47:45. > :47:49.the future of education about how they will receive a quality
:47:49. > :47:53.education and we must convince those that a non-selective system
:47:53. > :47:59.can work and indeed does with in many schools. Let's broaden the
:47:59. > :48:02.debate. With as to discuss the situation further, Sir Ken
:48:02. > :48:05.Bloomfield from the Association for Quality Education and the principal
:48:06. > :48:09.of St Malachy's, David Lambon and the former principal of Ashfield
:48:09. > :48:12.Girls, Adeline Dinsmore. Sir Ken Bloomfield, what do you say in
:48:12. > :48:16.response to the Minister in that you do not need to be doing what
:48:16. > :48:21.you're doing within that part of the community who believe in
:48:21. > :48:28.selection. Get rid of it. I think I would say quite a lot of things in
:48:28. > :48:33.response to what the Minister has said. This is not just about
:48:33. > :48:42.education, this is about democracy. The origin of all this process
:48:42. > :48:47.began back in 2000 when the Labour government of the day, as you know,
:48:47. > :48:52.wanted to abolish academic selection forever. They then, at a
:48:52. > :48:54.later stage, did an unusual thing and said that part of this bill
:48:54. > :49:01.that would abolish academic selection forever would not go
:49:01. > :49:05.forward if we had devolution. Why did they do that? Because they knew
:49:05. > :49:08.very well that there was a very strong domestic feeling in Northern
:49:08. > :49:14.Ireland about this issue. We then go forward to all the efforts that
:49:14. > :49:18.have been made to assess the public opinion on this and there have been
:49:18. > :49:21.several. One interestingly enough undertaken by the then Sinn Fein
:49:21. > :49:25.Minister of Education, Martin McGuinness described at a time as
:49:25. > :49:32.the biggest public opinion poll ever held in Northern Ireland by
:49:32. > :49:37.government on any issue. It produced the outcome that there was
:49:37. > :49:41.jollity about the 11-Plus but overall selection for the grammar
:49:41. > :49:44.school and selection and that was echoed again in other opinion polls
:49:44. > :49:48.undertaken by the BBC and the Belfast Telegraph and then you come
:49:48. > :49:52.to the important point which is that people like fighting with
:49:52. > :50:01.their feet because unlike the 11- Plus which it was expected all
:50:01. > :50:04.children would have to go through, there are thousands of parents
:50:04. > :50:10.choosing to bring children forward to be tested in this way and that
:50:10. > :50:16.is an indication... In the early stages of this there was an
:50:16. > :50:20.expression being bandied about, parental choice. Parental choice is
:50:20. > :50:23.to have grammar schools as part of the next. I don't suggest for a
:50:23. > :50:32.moment that the only good school in Northern Ireland is a grammar
:50:32. > :50:37.school, of course not. I am in favour of diversity of schools. The
:50:37. > :50:41.Minister and my wife for at an event at an integrated school and I
:50:41. > :50:45.am a patron of the integrated schools movement because I believe
:50:45. > :50:50.in variety of education. Wouldn't it be odd if the only sort of
:50:50. > :50:54.school that we did not want to have is an academic Lee... You did not
:50:54. > :50:58.need a selection for diversity of types of schools. That is a
:50:58. > :51:02.misdemeanour. That does not make sense. How is it a voluntary
:51:02. > :51:06.process? If a school set up a criterion of academic selection and
:51:06. > :51:12.a parent wants to send a child to that school, how is it voluntary?
:51:12. > :51:17.The parent must cross the barrier and the people. I know two schools
:51:17. > :51:21.to set academic selection and did not have to use it because the
:51:21. > :51:25.children who applied were so good. It's is voluntary, parents
:51:25. > :51:32.voluntarily decide to go through the process or not. That is what it
:51:32. > :51:37.means. But there is a barrier in their way. The debate that needs to
:51:37. > :51:43.be produced... Let's hear from Adeline Dinsmore, you believe there
:51:43. > :51:48.is no benefit. You taught in a non- selective secondary school.
:51:48. > :51:54.non-selective schools for my entire career and very often it was a case
:51:54. > :51:59.of picking up the pieces from children who had not passed the 11-
:51:59. > :52:03.Plus, the self-esteem is in tatters. Over the years I have taught many
:52:03. > :52:09.children who have gone on to be fully functioning members of
:52:09. > :52:16.society and to achieve in all kinds of ways at the highest level. So
:52:16. > :52:20.there... I agree with the Minister. We have policies and an entitlement
:52:20. > :52:26.framework. Interestingly enough, we work on that and collaboration
:52:26. > :52:31.between schools and funnily enough at 16, these children who were
:52:31. > :52:37.failures at 11 are deemed quite adequate. And to go to
:52:37. > :52:40.collaboration. J the current position though, he worked in a
:52:40. > :52:50.sector where selection was not and cannot support a selective sector.
:52:50. > :52:51.
:52:51. > :52:56.We have a minister... It -- and Kennet supports a selective sector.
:52:56. > :53:02.We often talk about a fractured society on sectarian grounds and so
:53:02. > :53:07.on but this argument I think is more to do with social class issues.
:53:07. > :53:11.It is like Stephen Spender. My parents kept me from children who
:53:11. > :53:19.were rough. There is a great element of that. So it is snobbery?
:53:19. > :53:23.I think so but what we need is our political leaders to take the lead
:53:23. > :53:27.and set out visionary policies and practices that will take us some
:53:27. > :53:32.way different from where we are at the minute which is not a good
:53:32. > :53:36.place. Where would you go from here? David Lambon? You have a
:53:36. > :53:40.school with a very proud tradition and you select your pupils
:53:40. > :53:44.academically, do you want to continue doing that or do you think
:53:44. > :53:47.there needs to be changed? I think what needs to happen went there is
:53:47. > :53:54.difficult it is you need to step back a little bit from eight and
:53:54. > :53:57.unfortunately, the Minister has not done that. -- a little bit from it.
:53:57. > :54:03.Parents are very stressed and unnoticed yesterday it was not so
:54:03. > :54:05.much the children who are stressed, it is the mother's and father's act.
:54:05. > :54:12.They were stressed about the situation and when we have got
:54:12. > :54:14.ourselves to this point, we must take a look back and the Minister
:54:14. > :54:18.mentioned international perspectives and I would much
:54:18. > :54:21.rather have a debate about the future of schools and how our
:54:21. > :54:26.schools are set up rather than a selection process. How do you
:54:26. > :54:29.answer that charge from Adeline Dinsmore, a bit of snobbery about
:54:29. > :54:33.but? The children want to go to schools because they perceive them
:54:33. > :54:37.to be better and their parents want them to go there as well for the
:54:37. > :54:43.same reasons which will give their children better opportunities at
:54:43. > :54:49.the end of seven years? Is that the case with your school? I do not see
:54:49. > :54:52.evidence of that in North Belfast. Out St Malachy's, we provide an
:54:52. > :54:58.excellent platform for boys and for choice. As Sir Ken Bloomfield
:54:58. > :55:02.mentioned, it is important to have a choice whether the Irish media or
:55:02. > :55:08.non-selective, selective, I would like to see a vocational schooling
:55:08. > :55:14.system set up where we have parity between things. So get rid of the
:55:14. > :55:22.curriculum? The Minister mentioned in France that we have a college,
:55:22. > :55:28.and a gymnasium in Germany. It is good to have children are being
:55:28. > :55:38.given a place. All children are not the same, Minister, do you accept
:55:38. > :55:42.that? Will you be teaching to a different curriculum? Let me answer
:55:42. > :55:45.and declare with you. In terms of the curriculum offer, when we get
:55:45. > :55:51.to sixth-form, we were focused on a more academic subjects. Three
:55:51. > :55:55.languages, a range of Sciences. are you not in the entitlement
:55:55. > :56:00.framework? Then you are teaching to the same curriculum. Hang on,
:56:00. > :56:07.Minister. With respect, there is a common curriculum but David and
:56:07. > :56:12.other principals can choose what part of the curriculum they can
:56:12. > :56:15.focus on. And they have to be compliant. By it you can make
:56:15. > :56:20.choices about what subject to a children have to study. The only
:56:20. > :56:23.way is going to be compliant is if he has a choice of 27 subjects
:56:23. > :56:26.after 16 and the only way to achieve that is within his own
:56:26. > :56:33.school or work with the educational partners around him and that is
:56:33. > :56:39.whether grammar school sector has failed miserably. They have sat on
:56:39. > :56:43.an ivory tower. And now they have to work with educational partners.
:56:43. > :56:48.For seven years, I worked in one of the best learning partnerships
:56:48. > :56:54.which worked exclusively... Undoubtedly. And we are building
:56:54. > :56:57.that in North Belfast. You are? me finish before you shout at me.
:56:57. > :57:01.We are building a personalised curriculum and we are working
:57:01. > :57:05.closely with all of our partners so we can get the best curriculum for
:57:05. > :57:09.every child in the Learning Partnership. Sir Ken Bloomfield,
:57:09. > :57:14.what do you make up what you have heard? The idea that our grammar
:57:14. > :57:18.schools are packed with the social elite is a kind of nonsense. If the
:57:18. > :57:21.Minister walks down the road to my old school and saw the people there
:57:21. > :57:28.and the people at the concert earlier in the week and realised
:57:28. > :57:31.what a wide spectrum they represents... I wrote a letter to
:57:31. > :57:36.the Times because Michael Gove had made a daft remark and said "isn't
:57:36. > :57:41.it a pity that so many of the post in politics are held by people from
:57:41. > :57:44.independent schools?" and I write a simple answer to that, why have we
:57:44. > :57:47.five British prime ministers in a road who came from a relatively
:57:47. > :57:50.humble background and the only thing they all have in common was
:57:50. > :57:57.that they had all come off on the grammar school. I a final word from
:57:57. > :58:02.you, Adeline Dinsmore. I know that work is going on in North Belfast
:58:02. > :58:08.to build those partnerships but I just think that it is time to step
:58:08. > :58:11.back and put the needs of children first and institutions second.
:58:11. > :58:15.minister, do you take anything away from this, chef and that might make
:58:15. > :58:19.you think again about how you navigate your way through art of
:58:19. > :58:24.the situation you are into the benefit of everybody? Of course I
:58:24. > :58:26.listen to debates and take away information but my job now and
:58:26. > :58:35.those who are opposed to back the next election is to convince
:58:35. > :58:39.parents to the values of an academic not selective system.
:58:39. > :58:44.you still need to convince David Lambon. Per it if you look at some
:58:44. > :58:50.of the changes in the education system, make it from the ground
:58:50. > :58:58.especially to changes in the schools.
:58:58. > :59:02.Thank you. A thorn in the side of the Stormont Executive, that is
:59:02. > :59:09.what Jim Allister aims to be anti- cabbage from north Antrim have a go
:59:09. > :59:13.at his political enemies -- and the MLA from north Antrim. Our
:59:13. > :59:16.correspondent went along. Jim Allister may be on his own in
:59:16. > :59:22.Stormont but he is not without supporters. Almost 200 party
:59:22. > :59:27.members came to take a stand with the TUV leader against the system
:59:27. > :59:37.which has Martin McGuinness as Deputy First Minister. Ladies and
:59:37. > :59:39.
:59:39. > :59:45.gentlemen, this province is stained with innocent blood. And those who
:59:45. > :59:53.shared it and those who planned it -- shed it and those who endorsed
:59:53. > :59:57.it well over us. It is that evil at the heart of government - and make
:59:57. > :00:07.no mistake, there is the evil at the heart of the Stormont
:00:07. > :00:08.
:00:08. > :00:13.government. The very personification of evil is
:00:14. > :00:19.our joined First Minister. Allister also condemns what he
:00:19. > :00:26.calls Sinn Fein hypocrisy over violence by dissident republicans.
:00:26. > :00:35.The murder of David Black was straight out of the Provo textbook
:00:35. > :00:38.on terrorism. It was murder they wrote. The TUV leader said it was
:00:38. > :00:45.right that Martin McGuinness was not that David Black's funeral. If
:00:45. > :00:55.I want to salute the Black family for having the strength and the
:00:55. > :00:58.
:00:58. > :01:04.courage... For having the strength and the
:01:04. > :01:06.carriage to cut through the hypocrisy and pretence by telling
:01:06. > :01:15.Martin McGuinness to stay away from the funeral.
:01:15. > :01:20.As for the DUP, it was branded foolish and easily seduced for
:01:20. > :01:28.power and its leader Peter Robinson condemned as well. It is not just
:01:28. > :01:33.enough, ladies and gentlemen, to condemn the murder, to visit the
:01:33. > :01:39.widow and then take yourself off with Martin McGuinness to another
:01:39. > :01:42.GAA match. APPLAUSE Che and Alastair call the
:01:42. > :01:46.SDLP and Ulster Unionists doormats who should pull out of the
:01:46. > :01:53.Executive. Jim Allister is not trying to chat
:01:53. > :01:58.to friends, he is asking for building alliances with UKIP. His
:01:58. > :02:08.Deputy Leader had a strong presence at conference.
:02:08. > :02:09.
:02:09. > :02:17.For the week in 60 seconds, Stephen The death of a pregnant woman in
:02:17. > :02:21.Galway led to calls for clarity on abortion. We have been working on a
:02:21. > :02:24.guidance document that is sitting in an in-tray somewhere and I would
:02:24. > :02:29.love to see it come are out. emerged that Ian Paisley Jr told
:02:29. > :02:32.Peter Robinson it would be mad to appoint John Larkin as Attorney-
:02:32. > :02:36.General. The argument over the boxing club
:02:36. > :02:40.continues, the sports minister went toe-to-toe with our strongest
:02:40. > :02:43.critics in the Assembly. When sectarianism raises its head,
:02:43. > :02:47.we need to challenge it. So contract as of the failed
:02:47. > :02:53.Ballymena firm Patten wanted a bail-out from the Executive but
:02:53. > :02:57.were turned down. A golf resort could be in line for
:02:57. > :03:03.a new club, the G8 group of world leaders and Sammy Wilson has shin
:03:03. > :03:08.find on his mind but not as often as they think. If she thinks I wake
:03:08. > :03:16.up in the morning and think "how can I get at Sinn Fein today", she
:03:16. > :03:20.must think I live a very sad life. Sir Ken Bloomfield and David Lambon
:03:20. > :03:26.are with me still. You are a former Governor for Northern Ireland in
:03:26. > :03:31.the BBC and that controversy rumbles on. What have you made of
:03:31. > :03:41.it? In a human organisation and humans make mistakes. They must
:03:41. > :03:47.rectify them when they happen but we would keep BBC at the
:03:47. > :03:53.cornerstone of our democracy and society. David Lambon, would you
:03:53. > :03:56.understand people lose interest in aspect of the BBC? 2 and -- to a
:03:56. > :04:01.degree, but it is such a wonderful independent organisation across the
:04:01. > :04:05.world wide spectrum and I think that we should really value it and
:04:05. > :04:09.not lose confidence because a lot of actions have been taken over the
:04:09. > :04:14.last week which I think should let people grow in confidence. By it