:00:37. > :00:44.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Nick Clegg says
:00:45. > :00:49.Chris Rennard must apologise. "What for?", say his friends. We'll ask
:00:50. > :00:54.senior Lib Dem minister Danny Alexander whose side he's on.
:00:55. > :00:58.What about the voters? What do they make of the Lib Dems? We hear the
:00:59. > :01:09.views of a Sunday Politics focus group.
:01:10. > :01:14.Coming up here, the fall-out from group. A
:01:15. > :01:18.Coming up here, the fall-out from the latest row between Sinn Fein and
:01:19. > :01:21.the DUP. We'll hear live from the leaders of SDLP, the Ulster
:01:22. > :01:23.Unionists and Alliance. Join me in half an hour.
:01:24. > :01:25.plunge from the highboard from who else but the Minister for
:01:26. > :01:28.Portsmouth. And with me, as always, the best and
:01:29. > :01:33.the brightest political panel in the business: and in London, Boris
:01:34. > :01:36.Johnson has pledged to recruit more volunteers. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis
:01:37. > :01:48.and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:49. > :01:50.First this morning, Nick Clegg is considering a fresh investigation
:01:51. > :01:59.into the behaviour of the party's former chief executive, Lord
:02:00. > :02:02.Rennard. Last week, a lawyer appointed by the party decided that
:02:03. > :02:05.no action could be taken against him, but that women who had accused
:02:06. > :02:08.the Lib Dem peer of inappropriate behaviour "were broadly credible".
:02:09. > :02:18.More than 100 party activists are demanding an apology. Chris Rennard
:02:19. > :02:22.say he's nothing to apologise for and the party whip must be returned
:02:23. > :02:27.to him. Helen, this is not going away. It is turning into a crisis
:02:28. > :02:35.for the Lib Dems? They have only got seven female MPs. There is no female
:02:36. > :02:39.Cabinet Minister. There is a reasonable chance that after the
:02:40. > :02:42.next election there might in no female Liberal Democrat MPs at all.
:02:43. > :02:49.A scandal like this will not encourage women into the party. Have
:02:50. > :02:51.they made a complete mess of it? You feel for Nick Clegg, because he
:02:52. > :02:58.launched an utterly rigorous process. He called in a QC. The QC
:02:59. > :03:04.looked at it and decided that the evidence did not meet the burden of
:03:05. > :03:07.proof in a criminal trial. But clearly he felt that the evidence
:03:08. > :03:16.from these women was very credible and serious. He said it was broadly
:03:17. > :03:20.credible. Clearly it was serious. Rennard is being advised by Lord
:03:21. > :03:24.Carlisle, fellow Liberal Democrat peer, who is giving purely legal
:03:25. > :03:30.advice. He is saying it has not reached that edge-mac, so do not
:03:31. > :03:35.apologise. This is a political issue, so the agony continues. Nick
:03:36. > :03:40.Clegg was hoping to keep the party whip withdrawn. But they did not
:03:41. > :03:46.launch an enquiry, the Webster enquired it was not an enquiry, it
:03:47. > :03:52.was a legal opinion. You're right, it was an internal opinion. The Lib
:03:53. > :03:57.Dems distinguished themselves from the other two parties not with
:03:58. > :04:00.policy, but with ethics. They presented themselves as being
:04:01. > :04:03.cleaner, and in possession of more Robert Jay than Labour and the
:04:04. > :04:18.Conservatives. That will be harder to do now. -- more probity. There
:04:19. > :04:22.are a Lib Dem peers that are more relaxed about taking him back and
:04:23. > :04:28.letting him pick up the party whip. That is the problem. There is a
:04:29. > :04:32.generational issue. The older Lib Dems in the House of Lords, the kind
:04:33. > :04:36.of thing, he did not do anything that wrong. The younger activists
:04:37. > :04:42.and those outside the House of Lords, they think it is a pollen.
:04:43. > :04:47.Yes, there is definitely a sort of what you are complaining about sort
:04:48. > :04:54.of thing. That is symptomatic of a cultural difference. The report last
:04:55. > :04:58.year found that they tried to manage the allegations. They did not do
:04:59. > :05:02.what any company would do if there was an allegation of sexual
:05:03. > :05:08.harassment. If there had not in the by-election in Eastleigh, this story
:05:09. > :05:13.may not have got the attention it did. Channel four news are the one
:05:14. > :05:17.that really drove this. Without their reporting, this might not have
:05:18. > :05:20.come out. It is not going to go away, because the issue of whether
:05:21. > :05:30.he gets the party whip back will come week. -- will come up this
:05:31. > :05:33.week. So it's not been a great week for
:05:34. > :05:36.the Liberal Democrats and none of this will help public perceptions of
:05:37. > :05:39.a party already struggling in the polls. In a moment, I'll be talking
:05:40. > :05:42.to the second most senior Liberal Democrat in the land, Danny
:05:43. > :05:45.Alexander. First, Adam Fleming went to Glasgow to find out what voters
:05:46. > :05:48.there made of the party. Let's put the Lib Dems under the
:05:49. > :05:51.microscope in Glasgow. We have recruited some Glaswegians who have
:05:52. > :05:56.voted for them, and some who have not. Hello, John. Let's get started.
:05:57. > :05:59.I will be watching them through the one-way mirror, along with the
:06:00. > :06:02.former Liberal Democrat MP John Barrett. Let's get to the heart of
:06:03. > :06:06.the matter straightaway. If the Lib Dems were a biscuit, what would they
:06:07. > :06:12.be? Tunnock's Teacake. Hard on the outside but soft in the middle. They
:06:13. > :06:20.give in. There is no strength of character there. They just give in
:06:21. > :06:29.to whoever. Ouch. Rich Tea. A bit bland and boring. Melts and crumbles
:06:30. > :06:33.under any sort of heat and pressure. Morrison's own brand of biscuit, not
:06:34. > :06:35.top of the range like Marks Spencer or Sainsbury's or Waitrose.
:06:36. > :06:45.A custard cream, sandwiched between David Cameron and the Tories. I
:06:46. > :06:49.think they were concerned that they had one exterior, but something else
:06:50. > :06:52.was really inside. They did not find it too definitive, too clear, too
:06:53. > :07:01.concise, too tasty, too appealing. Which means? It is a worry. If that
:07:02. > :07:06.is their gut reaction, literally, let's find out what is behind it.
:07:07. > :07:10.The context of them being stuck between a rock and a hard place, for
:07:11. > :07:17.them as a party, I feel slightly sorry for them. I think people who
:07:18. > :07:22.voted for them will think they are victims as well, being sold down the
:07:23. > :07:25.river by going to the coalition. I think the ones, particularly student
:07:26. > :07:32.fees, that was an important one to a lot of people. People felt cheated.
:07:33. > :07:36.I agree. Just going back on that, so publicly and openly, it makes you
:07:37. > :07:44.think, well, what do they stand for? It is trust. Harsh. But our group is
:07:45. > :07:48.feeling quite upbeat about the state of the economy. What have the Lib
:07:49. > :07:54.Dems contributed to that? I am not quite sure. It is George Osborne, a
:07:55. > :08:00.Conservative, who is the Chancellor, so it is mostly down to him. The
:08:01. > :08:04.Liberal Democrats are mostly on their coat tails, if you know what I
:08:05. > :08:08.mean. Have the Lib Dems done anything, anyone? I think the
:08:09. > :08:12.Liberal Democrats were responsible for increasing the tax allowance,
:08:13. > :08:17.?10,000 for next year. I think they have played a major role in that.
:08:18. > :08:24.Yes. I am glad somebody noticed that. We will have helped everyone
:08:25. > :08:32.who is receiving a salary, and it is interesting that nobody has
:08:33. > :08:42.mentioned that. Now, let's talk about personalities. Everyone knows
:08:43. > :08:45.him, but what about say, this guy? Alexander. Danny, they got it
:08:46. > :08:49.straightaway. I actually quite like him. I think he talks very clearly
:08:50. > :08:56.and it is easy to understand what he says. Fellow redhead Charles Kennedy
:08:57. > :09:00.is popular as well. He is very charismatic and it is through him
:09:01. > :09:07.that I voted Liberal the last few times. But who is this? I recognise
:09:08. > :09:10.him but I cannot tell you his name. That is the party's leader in
:09:11. > :09:12.Scotland, Willie Rennie, and the party's role in the upcoming
:09:13. > :09:16.referendum on independence draws a blank as well. It does not feel like
:09:17. > :09:34.they have featured, it is SNP and Labour and Conservative. They are
:09:35. > :09:37.last in a four horse race. We have been talking about the biggest issue
:09:38. > :09:40.in Scottish politics, independence and the referendum and the Lib Dems
:09:41. > :09:44.are nowhere. They are not mentioned and they seem to think it is all
:09:45. > :09:47.about Labour and the SNP. The Lib Dems are part of the Better Together
:09:48. > :09:50.campaign and we are being drowned out among that. Looking to the
:09:51. > :09:56.future, what messages do voters have for the Lib Dems? Get a backbone. Do
:09:57. > :10:03.not go back on your policies or your word. Be strong and decisive. If you
:10:04. > :10:09.will pardon the expression, man up. DIY, do it yourself. Do not award
:10:10. > :10:18.bankers and other people for failure. Stand up. Be your own
:10:19. > :10:21.person, party. If that focus group represented the whole country, what
:10:22. > :10:26.would the result for the Lib Dems be at 2015 in the election? If they get
:10:27. > :10:31.the message across between now and then, the result could be OK. If
:10:32. > :10:35.they do not get the message across, the result could be disaster. Maybe
:10:36. > :10:42.they would do a lot better on their own. I do not think you are seeing
:10:43. > :10:45.the true Lib Dems because they are in the coalition. They maybe deserve
:10:46. > :10:49.another chance. Crucially for the Lib Dems, that means there is some
:10:50. > :10:58.hope, but there is also plenty of anger, some disappoint, and a bit of
:10:59. > :11:01.bafflement as well. And watching that with me, senior
:11:02. > :11:06.Liberal Democrat and Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander.
:11:07. > :11:11.Welcome to the programme. One of the things that comes through from the
:11:12. > :11:15.focus group is that if there is any credit around for the economic
:11:16. > :11:21.recovery, it is the Tories that are getting it, and you are not? What
:11:22. > :11:25.can you do about that? The first thing to say is that the economy
:11:26. > :11:29.would not be recovering if it was not for the Liberal Democrats. If it
:11:30. > :11:33.was not for our decision right beginning in 2010 to form a strong,
:11:34. > :11:37.stable coalition government that to deal with the problems, we would
:11:38. > :11:43.still be in the mess that Labour left us with. Why are you not
:11:44. > :11:51.getting the credit? That was one focus group. It was interesting to
:11:52. > :11:54.hear opinions. We have to work very hard to get across the message that
:11:55. > :11:59.the economy would not be recovering without the Liberal Democrats.
:12:00. > :12:01.People would not be seeing the largest income tax cuts for a
:12:02. > :12:07.generation without the Liberal Democrats. The ?10,000 threshold
:12:08. > :12:11.that one of the people referred to is coming into peoples pay packets
:12:12. > :12:20.this year. Lots of people recognise that. There was the one person in
:12:21. > :12:23.the focus groups. This is your measure of success, raising the
:12:24. > :12:27.people at which people pay income tax. But most of the voters do not
:12:28. > :12:33.even give you credit for that. The role that we haven't British
:12:34. > :12:37.politics as a party, is that we are the only party that can be trusted
:12:38. > :12:42.to deliver a fair society and a strong economy. People know they
:12:43. > :12:46.cannot trust the Labour Party. We saw it again from Ed Miliband this
:12:47. > :12:56.morning. You cannot trust the Labour Party with the nation's finances. It
:12:57. > :13:00.may well be your policy, the income tax threshold, but it is the Tories
:13:01. > :13:05.that are getting the credit? I do not think that is true. I have spent
:13:06. > :13:08.lots of time meeting photos and lots of people recognise that if it was
:13:09. > :13:13.not for the Liberal Democrats, people would not be seeing those tax
:13:14. > :13:18.cuts. We are helping disadvantaged children in schools. It is right
:13:19. > :13:22.that we have to work very hard between now and polling day to do
:13:23. > :13:27.several things, to make sure that we secure the recovery, there can be no
:13:28. > :13:31.complacency. The economic recovery is in its early stages and we need
:13:32. > :13:36.to make sure it is sustainable. We need to make sure the benefits of
:13:37. > :13:40.the recovery are shared out people who have made sacrifices, people on
:13:41. > :13:47.low pay, people who have seen their savings are eroded. The Tories have
:13:48. > :13:50.now hijacked another Lib Dem policy, another big hike in the
:13:51. > :13:55.minimum wage. You spoke about the need to make sure that people on low
:13:56. > :14:01.pay benefit from the recovery, a big hike in the minimum wage. Did the
:14:02. > :14:06.Chancellor consulting on this? We have been talking about it for some
:14:07. > :14:11.time. Vince Cable asked the low pay commission for advice on this. Why
:14:12. > :14:16.did Vince Cable not make this announcement, why was it the
:14:17. > :14:20.Chancellor? Let me say a few other things about this. If we are going
:14:21. > :14:24.to secure the recovery, this year we have to make sure that businesses
:14:25. > :14:29.start investing. We have got to get Roddick typically rising. An
:14:30. > :14:34.increase in the minimum wage is something that needs to follow that.
:14:35. > :14:36.We will not do it unless the low pay commission adviser as it is
:14:37. > :14:43.important for the economy at this stage. Did you know the Chancellor
:14:44. > :14:46.was coming out with that statement? I did not know he was going to say
:14:47. > :14:52.something on that particular day. We have worked together on it in the
:14:53. > :14:57.tragedy to see what the economic impact would be, and to emphasise
:14:58. > :15:02.that it is the commission, which has credibility with business, trade
:15:03. > :15:07.unions and government. It must not be a politically motivated increase.
:15:08. > :15:11.So you did not know, and Vince Cable, and it is properly a matter
:15:12. > :15:20.for him as the Business Secretary, he did not make the announcement? I
:15:21. > :15:26.don't think that's right. I don't clear every word I say with him, I
:15:27. > :15:34.don't expect him to do the same to me. The Lib Dems have told us before
:15:35. > :15:40.it was the Treasury that was blocking this from happening. We
:15:41. > :15:45.were going to ask the low pay commission to advise us on bringing
:15:46. > :15:50.the minimum wage back up. During the financial crisis, wages have been
:15:51. > :15:59.lower-than-expected but it's also right, we shouldn't act in a hasty
:16:00. > :16:04.way, we should listen to what the commission has to say, and if they
:16:05. > :16:10.don't recommend an increase we have to make sure economic conditions are
:16:11. > :16:14.there to get it right. Not only are the Tories getting credit for that,
:16:15. > :16:19.our Scottish voters group showed that people have still not forgiven
:16:20. > :16:23.you for ratting on tuition fees, and that was a broken promise that
:16:24. > :16:29.didn't even apply to the people in Scotland, where there are no tuition
:16:30. > :16:37.fees! Nick Clegg has been very clear about the issues that that brought
:16:38. > :16:42.up. If you look at our manifesto, the University of London said we
:16:43. > :16:47.delivered about 70% of our policies in the manifesto. They haven't
:16:48. > :16:56.forgiven you for the big one. The big promise we made was to cut
:16:57. > :17:03.income tax the millions of people. That is a policy which is putting
:17:04. > :17:07.money back into the pockets of working people. It is only possible
:17:08. > :17:11.because we are delivering our economic plan in government with the
:17:12. > :17:18.Conservatives. Now we have to make sure, through tax cuts, through
:17:19. > :17:21.looking at issues like the minimum wage and other groups who have made
:17:22. > :17:28.sacrifices, make sure that benefit is shared. I am not going to agree
:17:29. > :17:32.to anything which undermines the confidence of businesses to invest
:17:33. > :17:41.in this country over the next 12 months. Speaking of Scotland, the
:17:42. > :17:45.Lib Dems, why do they now look largely irrelevant in the battle for
:17:46. > :17:51.the union? Not one of our focus group even knew who your Scottish
:17:52. > :17:58.leader is. I don't accept that. I have spent a lot of time with
:17:59. > :18:05.Alistair Carmichael and others, we are all making the case every day.
:18:06. > :18:09.If Scotland votes to be independent, it will be in a much worse financial
:18:10. > :18:16.position within the European Union. Scotland will be contributing to the
:18:17. > :18:21.rebate for the UK, rather than benefiting from it. It has been a
:18:22. > :18:26.disaster for your Scottish based to have joined a coalition with the
:18:27. > :18:30.Tories. It may have been the right thing to do, you say it is in the
:18:31. > :18:36.national interest, but Scottish Lib Dems did not expect to be in a
:18:37. > :18:39.coalition with the Tories. By the way I think it is also in the
:18:40. > :18:46.national interests and the interests of the people for Scotland, cutting
:18:47. > :18:52.the income tax of Scottish people, stabilising the economy. We are now
:18:53. > :18:59.seeing good growth. But you are in meltdown. I don't accept that. We
:19:00. > :19:05.will see what happens in the 2015 election. I think we have a record
:19:06. > :19:09.to be proud of, we have played a very important role in clearing up
:19:10. > :19:12.the mess Labour made in the economy, of making sure the
:19:13. > :19:19.Coalition government tackles the problems in this country, but does
:19:20. > :19:23.so in a fair way. I think the biggest risks to the economic
:19:24. > :19:27.recovery over the next few years is either a majority Labour government
:19:28. > :19:32.or a majority Conservative government. Labour you cannot trust
:19:33. > :19:36.with the finances, the Tories want us to play chicken with the European
:19:37. > :19:40.Union which would truly be a disaster to investment in this
:19:41. > :19:45.country. You announced this week that if Scotland votes to leave the
:19:46. > :19:51.UK, it would be the British Treasury that would guarantee all British
:19:52. > :19:54.government debt. There wouldn't be a negotiation, but the backstop would
:19:55. > :19:59.be that even if they didn't take anything, we would still guarantee
:20:00. > :20:04.the debt. What was happening in the markets that you needed to calm them
:20:05. > :20:10.down? We were getting quite a few questions from the people we rely on
:20:11. > :20:15.to lend us money. We are still borrowing billions of pounds every
:20:16. > :20:26.month as a country. Those people were asking us to clarify this
:20:27. > :20:33.point. It was becoming a serious concern? It wasn't reflected in the
:20:34. > :20:38.guilty yields. I follow the bond market quite carefully and there was
:20:39. > :20:44.no sign this was having an impact. That's why the right thing to do was
:20:45. > :20:49.to clarify this point now, rather than the concerns being reflected in
:20:50. > :20:53.what you imply, and I think it is a bad idea for Scotland to vote for
:20:54. > :20:57.separation but it would be wrong to allow for the fact that question is
:20:58. > :21:00.on the table to cost taxpayers in the UK more money and higher
:21:01. > :21:05.interest payments simply because Alex Salmond has put that question
:21:06. > :21:10.on the table. That's why I think it was the right thing to do. There
:21:11. > :21:16.were a lot of calls from the focus group that you need to be different.
:21:17. > :21:20.Nick Clegg has embarked on this aggressive differentiation. Where
:21:21. > :21:25.you can be different is the bankers' bonuses. What conceivable
:21:26. > :21:33.reason could there be for anybody at RBS getting a bonus twice in their
:21:34. > :21:39.salary? We have not been approached by RBS in terms of those votes. I
:21:40. > :21:45.would be sceptical about an approach from RBS if it can. It shows what we
:21:46. > :21:54.have presided over as a party in government, massive reductions...
:21:55. > :22:03.I'm not asking you about that, I'm asking what conceivable case there
:22:04. > :22:06.can be for a bank that has failed to sell its branches even though
:22:07. > :22:12.ordered by the Government, still has 38 billion of toxic debt on its
:22:13. > :22:17.balance sheet, I ask again what possible reason should they get
:22:18. > :22:27.twice salary as a bonus? Your right to say RBS is in a very different
:22:28. > :22:32.position to other banks, it is mostly owned by the state. RBS
:22:33. > :22:36.hasn't put a case to us but they might do so I would like to look at
:22:37. > :22:39.what they would say, but I would be sceptical as to whether a case could
:22:40. > :22:44.be made given some of the things you said, but also the fact that it is a
:22:45. > :22:51.bank that has benefited from the taxpayer standing behind it. Now RBS
:22:52. > :22:56.has to focus more on domestic retail. Let me turn to Chris
:22:57. > :23:02.Rennard, ten women have accused him of sexual harassment. He denies
:23:03. > :23:08.every case. Who do you believe? We have been through a process on this
:23:09. > :23:17.as a party. A report has been issued on this. I agree with Alistair
:23:18. > :23:21.Webster on this, he has made clear that while he cannot prove what
:23:22. > :23:26.happened to a criminal standard, that there is clear there has been
:23:27. > :23:31.considerable distress and harm caused. I agree with him about that
:23:32. > :23:40.and that's why it is necessary for Chris Rennard to apologise as he has
:23:41. > :23:46.been asked to do. If he refuses to apologise, should he be denied the
:23:47. > :23:49.Lib Dem whip in the Lords? I don't think he should be readmitted to the
:23:50. > :23:54.Liberal Democrat group in the House of Lords until such time as the
:23:55. > :24:00.disciplinary process, including the apology, has been done properly. We
:24:01. > :24:03.are very democratic party, it is a matter for our group in the House of
:24:04. > :24:09.Lords in due course to make that judgement. Party HQ has had a lot of
:24:10. > :24:13.complaints from party members about the fact no apology has been made.
:24:14. > :24:17.The appropriate committee would need to look at that and decide what
:24:18. > :24:24.action needs to be taken because these are very serious matters. We
:24:25. > :24:30.as a party have learned a lot, taken a long, hard look at ourselves, to
:24:31. > :24:37.change the way we work. The apology does need to be made. We are told
:24:38. > :24:40.that Lord Newby, the Chief Whip of the Liberal Democrats in the House
:24:41. > :24:45.of Lords, we are told he has shaken hands with Chris Rennard and
:24:46. > :24:53.welcomed him back. That decision has not been taken yet. I think Lord
:24:54. > :25:01.Newby would share my view on this. Have you shaken his hand and
:25:02. > :25:07.welcomed him back? No, I haven't. Does Nick Clegg have the power to
:25:08. > :25:12.deny Chris Rennard as the whip? I am making it clear that a lack of
:25:13. > :25:17.apology is totally unacceptable, and therefore we have to take steps if
:25:18. > :25:23.that is not forthcoming. His view and my view is that Lord Rennard
:25:24. > :25:30.should not be readmitted to the House of Lords if that is not
:25:31. > :25:37.forthcoming. In our party, our group in the House of Lords has two in the
:25:38. > :25:44.end take a view for itself. And they can override Nick Clegg's view? I
:25:45. > :25:51.hope that when they look at this... Do they have the power to override
:25:52. > :26:00.Nick Clegg? They have the power to decide who should be the whip. The
:26:01. > :26:07.failure to follow up the simple human demand for an apology for the
:26:08. > :26:18.stress that has been caused is totally unacceptable. Your party is
:26:19. > :26:28.totally down lighted on this -- divided on this. Here is what Lord
:26:29. > :26:35.Carlile had to say. A total nonsense, hyperbole. It is a
:26:36. > :26:39.ridiculous statement to make and we have seen Alistair Webster, the QC
:26:40. > :26:43.who did this investigation, comment on that himself this morning. He has
:26:44. > :26:48.followed the process the party laid down in its rules, which sets the
:26:49. > :26:53.standard for the investigation which asked him to report on the evidence
:26:54. > :27:00.he has found, but he also has a duty of confidentiality and
:27:01. > :27:05.responsibility under the data protection legislation as well. Here
:27:06. > :27:17.is what your activists have said in a letter to the Guardian. This shows
:27:18. > :27:23.there are strong opinions, but why should Chris Rennard apologise for
:27:24. > :27:28.something he denies, unproven allegations, on an unpublished
:27:29. > :27:31.report that Chris Rennard has not been allowed to read? He should
:27:32. > :27:35.apologise because he wants to continue to be a member of the
:27:36. > :27:41.Liberal Democrats and this is the recommendation that has been made by
:27:42. > :27:47.the internal disciplinary process. Webster himself said this was not an
:27:48. > :27:53.inquiry, it is an opinion. If Chris Rennard apologises on this basis, he
:27:54. > :27:59.opens himself to civil lawsuits. He says he is not going to do it. As a
:28:00. > :28:04.Liberal Democrat you join the party because you believe in its values,
:28:05. > :28:10.you abide by its rules. One of those rules is that we have a process if
:28:11. > :28:16.there are disciplinary allegations. The committee of the party supported
:28:17. > :28:19.Webster's recommendations, one of which was that an apology should be
:28:20. > :28:27.made because he clearly found distress had been caused. Will there
:28:28. > :28:37.now be a proper inquiry? I don't think any of these legalistic
:28:38. > :28:45.things, I don't think he can have it both ways. Will there be a proper
:28:46. > :28:49.inquiry? Alistair Webster did do a proper inquiry. There was a proper
:28:50. > :28:52.report into what happened at the time and we have learned a lot from
:28:53. > :28:58.this is a party, and the most important thing now is that Chris
:28:59. > :29:09.Rennard apologises. You have made that clear. What kind of biscuits
:29:10. > :29:16.are you? Are you a Tunnocks? Soft on the inside? It is good of you to be
:29:17. > :29:21.advertising a Scottish product. We just wondered if you weren't tough
:29:22. > :29:40.enough to take on Ed Balls. Thank you. More than tough enough is the
:29:41. > :29:43.answer to that. Generally governments are a bit
:29:44. > :29:46.rubbish at IT projects. They tend to run way over budget and never quite
:29:47. > :29:49.achieve what they promised. So the revelations of a former spy that the
:29:50. > :29:52.US and British security agencies were in fact astonishingly efficient
:29:53. > :29:55.at eavesdropping on the digital communications of their citizens
:29:56. > :29:57.came as a bit shock. But just how worried should we be about their
:29:58. > :29:59.clandestine activity? In his latest revelation, former US
:30:00. > :30:01.by Edward Snowden has claimed that America's National Security Agency
:30:02. > :30:07.operates a secret database called Dishfire. It collect 200 million
:30:08. > :30:13.mobile phone messages every day from around the world, accessed, he says,
:30:14. > :30:17.why British and American spies. This week, the president has outlined a
:30:18. > :30:21.series of surveillance reforms, including Ning to the storage of the
:30:22. > :30:28.phone call information of millions of Americans, and no Morse -- and no
:30:29. > :30:38.more spying on allies like Angela Merkel. Critics say that the British
:30:39. > :30:42.intelligence agencies have refused to acknowledge even the need for a
:30:43. > :30:46.debate on the issue. The Foreign Secretary William six says that we
:30:47. > :30:53.have a very strong system of checks and balances. -- William Hague. ??
:30:54. > :30:57.new line Nick Pickles is director of the pressure group Big Brother
:30:58. > :30:59.Watch. The Labour MP Hazel Blears in on Parliament's Intelligence And
:31:00. > :31:10.Security Committee. They're here to go head to head.
:31:11. > :31:15.Welcome to both of you. Hazel Blears, let me come to you first.
:31:16. > :31:18.President Obama has made some major changes as a result of what we have
:31:19. > :31:25.learned that the NSA in America was up to. But British politicians seem
:31:26. > :31:30.to, they are not up for this kind of thing, they are hoping it will go
:31:31. > :31:34.away? It is not going away and that is why my committee, the
:31:35. > :31:37.Intelligence And Security Committee, has decided to launch an enquiry
:31:38. > :31:45.into whether the legal framework is up-to-date. We have had massive
:31:46. > :31:51.technological change. We have had a call for evidence. Some of the
:31:52. > :31:55.sessions will be open so that people can see what the evidence is.
:31:56. > :31:59.Obviously some of the information will have to be classified, but on
:32:00. > :32:03.the committee, there is a real commitment to say, there is a big
:32:04. > :32:08.debate going on, let's see if the system is as Rob asked as we can
:32:09. > :32:11.make it. The big question is oversight and the call for evidence
:32:12. > :32:15.that the committee has issued is not mention oversight. It is ten years
:32:16. > :32:23.since the Foreign Affairs Committee said that the committee should be a
:32:24. > :32:30.fully elected committee chosen by Parliament and not the Prime
:32:31. > :32:34.Minister. It has changed, actually. The Prime Minister nominates people
:32:35. > :32:42.and the house gets to him -- gets to approve. In America, they have a
:32:43. > :32:50.separation of power, the president does not nominate Kennedy.
:32:51. > :32:55.Basically, Hazel Blears, you're an establishment lackey? I do not think
:32:56. > :32:59.so. Most of the people on the committee have some experience of
:33:00. > :33:03.intelligence and these issues. In this country, we have robust
:33:04. > :33:07.scrutiny, compared to some of her European neighbours. We have
:33:08. > :33:13.Parliamentary scrutiny, the interception commissioners, and
:33:14. > :33:17.ministers have to sign the warrants. But there may be room for
:33:18. > :33:23.improvement, which is why we are having the enquiry. Do not forget,
:33:24. > :33:27.President Obama said that the agency should not have the ability to
:33:28. > :33:32.collect data, he wanted to put more safeguards in. That is essential for
:33:33. > :33:35.the work of the agencies. If you cannot see the data, you cannot take
:33:36. > :33:40.the connections and see the patterns. Some people never talk
:33:41. > :33:45.about the threat from terrorism, it is all about travesty. There are
:33:46. > :33:50.several thousand people in this country, as we are talking, who are
:33:51. > :33:56.actively planning to do a country harm. When this debate started in
:33:57. > :34:00.the US, the NSA head stood up and said there are 54 plots that have
:34:01. > :34:07.been detected by this capability that has detected and that in bulk.
:34:08. > :34:13.Now the head of the NSA has admitted that the number is actually zero. It
:34:14. > :34:18.is not the intelligence committee in the US that did the work to reduce
:34:19. > :34:23.that number, it was a Judiciary Committee. The fact that we have two
:34:24. > :34:29.different bodies doing this in this country, it means that you do not
:34:30. > :34:33.get the correct view. How can people have confidence in a body when if
:34:34. > :34:39.you go around Europe, for example, or the world, we are not at the end
:34:40. > :34:43.not requiring judges to not sign warrants? I do not accept that the
:34:44. > :34:50.committee failed on that range of issues. You look at the reports on
:34:51. > :34:54.7/7. Two reports by the committee get to the heart of it. If you look
:34:55. > :35:00.at that terrorist attack on our country, people will say, why did
:35:01. > :35:05.you not have them on the radar? The agencies are between a rock and a
:35:06. > :35:10.hard race. They have got to be subject to oversight, but beanie
:35:11. > :35:17.capability. Did you know about Dishfire? We go to GCHQ on a regular
:35:18. > :35:22.basis and I know about the capabilities that we have got. Some
:35:23. > :35:29.of the names of these programmes, we would not necessarily know. But did
:35:30. > :35:34.you know that GCHQ had the capability to use Dishfire, or to
:35:35. > :35:40.get Dishfire material from the NSA? I knew and my committee knew that we
:35:41. > :35:44.had the capability to collect data, and these days, people do not write
:35:45. > :35:50.letters, they do not use landline telephones, they use the Internet
:35:51. > :35:53.and text in, so it is important that the agencies are able to keep up
:35:54. > :36:00.with that take the logical change. What should happen? The proper legal
:36:01. > :36:05.framework should include, if a company is cooperating, as Google
:36:06. > :36:11.and Facebook do, it should be illegal for GCHQ to hack into them.
:36:12. > :36:16.In the US, Lundberg estimate that this has driven a 35mm and hole in
:36:17. > :36:20.the US economy because people do not trust but there are systems are
:36:21. > :36:25.secure. We need to know that GCHQ are not trying to use a different
:36:26. > :36:28.door into the system, whether by hacking or foreign intelligence. We
:36:29. > :36:36.need judicial oversight with judges and not politicians signing off. The
:36:37. > :36:41.final 30 seconds to you. As a result of the changes in the Justice and
:36:42. > :36:45.Security act, the committee is accountable to Parliament and not
:36:46. > :36:48.the Prime Minister. Those changes are taking place, and I am up for
:36:49. > :36:54.the debate if we need more change or not. But I want British agencies to
:36:55. > :36:59.have more power to protect the people in this country. Thank you to
:37:00. > :37:02.both of you. It's coming up to 11:40. You're watching the Sunday
:37:03. > :37:05.Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, we'll get the verdict of
:37:06. > :37:27.the Minister for Portsmouth on that dive from the Portsmouth MP. Ouch!
:37:28. > :37:36.Hello, and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. I've
:37:37. > :37:42.been told by Unionist politicians that the UVF, the PUP Ali aren't
:37:43. > :37:49.order are effectively one and the same thing in the city of Belfast. I
:37:50. > :37:54.think it's very unhelpful at a critical stage for somebody to go
:37:55. > :38:00.out and take the pin out of the grenade. I think we need a more
:38:01. > :38:03.mature reflection on his part. I understand he is under pressure.
:38:04. > :38:06.This time last week, things were perfectly polite, if not exactly
:38:07. > :38:09.brimming over with positivity. Now it seems relationships between the
:38:10. > :38:13.DUP and Sinn Fein have hit rock bottom. With the five party leaders
:38:14. > :38:16.due to meet again on Tuesday, just how damaging is this latest war of
:38:17. > :38:19.words between the First and Deputy First Ministers? Joining me are
:38:20. > :38:22.David Ford, the Alliance Party leader, the Ulster Unionist leader,
:38:23. > :38:25.Mike Nesbitt, and the leader of the SDLP, Alasdair McDonnell.
:38:26. > :38:32.Plus, is it now time for the British and Irish governments to take
:38:33. > :38:37.control of the process? I think it is an intervention, I think it will
:38:38. > :38:41.be by both governments, and we are agreed this is something that both
:38:42. > :38:44.governments will work together on. Joining me to discuss that and more
:38:45. > :38:51.are Sheila Davidson and Steven McCaffery.
:38:52. > :38:54.It's almost three weeks since the Haass talks broke up without
:38:55. > :38:57.agreement. Despite that, the five main parties have continued to
:38:58. > :39:02.discuss the potential for progress on the proposals. But has the row
:39:03. > :39:05.between the DUP and Sinn Fein over comments made by the Deputy First
:39:06. > :39:13.Minister cast doubt over any possible agreement? The leaders of
:39:14. > :39:18.the three other parties are with me. You are all very welcome. Alistair
:39:19. > :39:24.MacDonald, was Martin McGuinness right with what he said on Thursday
:39:25. > :39:30.that the PUP, UVF and Orange Order are effectively the same? In my view
:39:31. > :39:37.it was unhelpful. We are the delicate lace and there may be an
:39:38. > :39:49.overlap but it was unhelpful to say it. Was it wrong? It was unhelpful.
:39:50. > :39:55.There is overlap at times between some organisations as far as I know,
:39:56. > :40:00.and may be more significant than elsewhere but it has not contributed
:40:01. > :40:04.to the peace we are looking for here, which is moving forward, all
:40:05. > :40:14.those negotiations over a number of months, progress has been made for
:40:15. > :40:21.some return on that progress, we have to do whatever at party
:40:22. > :40:24.political interests, we need to push this on towards implementation of
:40:25. > :40:29.what has been agreed towards legislation where possible and
:40:30. > :40:37.ultimately towards resolution of outstanding issues. People want hope
:40:38. > :40:42.and prosperity and this instability means prosperity is difficult. And
:40:43. > :40:46.the Orange Order and wider Unionist family have denied Martin
:40:47. > :40:56.McGuinness's allegations. David Ford, any truth to you, the ring of
:40:57. > :40:59.truth in what he said? He was talking about the issue of
:41:00. > :41:05.membership which I am not sure it's relevant. What concerns me, when the
:41:06. > :41:08.Department of Justice had a delegation from the camp at Twaddell
:41:09. > :41:14.Avenue, he brought with a representative of the PUP and the
:41:15. > :41:20.DUP and Ulster Unionists, and what worries me is that tie up similar to
:41:21. > :41:25.the Unionist forum suggesting all Unison is together around
:41:26. > :41:32.contentious issues, when it seems to me the aren't men I know in Antrim
:41:33. > :41:35.see things differently. Martin McGuinness talked about that
:41:36. > :41:41.triangular relationship being the case in Belfast specifically, not
:41:42. > :41:46.Antrim. I accept that but it worries me to see those giving batting too
:41:47. > :41:52.difficult elements within North and East Belfast. Might Nesbitt, your
:41:53. > :41:58.party used to use the phrase inextricably linked referring to
:41:59. > :42:01.Sinn Fein and the IRA. The PUP and UVF are in extra be linked, the
:42:02. > :42:09.aren't order supports Twaddell Avenue, so does the PUP. You can see
:42:10. > :42:15.how Martin McGuinness can connect the dots and put forward that
:42:16. > :42:19.explanation. The UUP has members in Belfast who are members of the
:42:20. > :42:25.Orange Order. They are not in the UVF or the PUP. We support human
:42:26. > :42:29.rights and it is extraordinary the Justice Minister seems to have a
:42:30. > :42:34.problem with political parties supporting human rights, which is
:42:35. > :42:39.what Twaddell Avenue is about, and Dr Haass accepted that. The question
:42:40. > :42:44.from me to Martin McGuinness is why he did that become a because on
:42:45. > :42:49.Tuesday when he left the room, it was agreed that if anybody would do
:42:50. > :42:53.any media, they would keep it short a realistic and positive and
:42:54. > :43:00.concentrate on the fact we were meeting again. But he clearly came
:43:01. > :43:06.on with the view he wanted to put forward on Thursday. He said that
:43:07. > :43:11.four times. And it is an unsubstantiated rumour. If I said
:43:12. > :43:15.leading Republicans said Martin McGuinness were still in the IRA,
:43:16. > :43:23.the media would not be dancing to my tune. People would not go to him or
:43:24. > :43:27.Gerry Kelly and asked, are you the guy who told Mike Nesbitt Martin
:43:28. > :43:32.McGuinness were still in the IRA? This is unsubstantiated and it is
:43:33. > :43:37.not professional or helpful. It is damaging. Why do you think you did
:43:38. > :43:45.it? He must have known people would be uncomfortable. I have no idea,
:43:46. > :43:50.but I will ask. We are at where we are at, and we have a chance here of
:43:51. > :43:55.doing a final lap around an agreement, the Good Friday Agreement
:43:56. > :43:59.got us 90% of the way but there are still some difficult issues that
:44:00. > :44:04.need to be resolved. Richard Haass has brought us a long wait towards
:44:05. > :44:08.resolution. We now know what the issues are, the cards are all face
:44:09. > :44:16.up on the table. We don't need more torque, we need resolution and
:44:17. > :44:19.decisions. I think people imagine it matters because the relationship
:44:20. > :44:23.between the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, the leaders
:44:24. > :44:29.of the two main parties, appear at an all-time low. Martin McGuinness
:44:30. > :44:34.was not tricked into saying this, he clearly wanted to see it, and then
:44:35. > :44:42.Robinson clearly and explicitly rebut that. Who is at 1:30am on
:44:43. > :44:49.Friday morning so that relationship is critical. I think it is party
:44:50. > :44:56.politics and that is shaping up towards an election. I understand it
:44:57. > :45:01.suggested marking was a dictator. That needle is very destructive
:45:02. > :45:06.inserts of situations. David Ford, it did possibly about both sides
:45:07. > :45:11.preparing an election strategy in the knowledge this is going
:45:12. > :45:15.nowhere? That may or may not be the case. I think the next meeting will
:45:16. > :45:21.show if there is any chance of progress. People will find it
:45:22. > :45:28.outrageous that after the effort put in by the team, and representatives,
:45:29. > :45:32.the idea that the plug could be pulled when we have effectively
:45:33. > :45:38.dealt with the majority of issues and there are real moral issues
:45:39. > :45:43.about meeting the needs of victims, the idea we would pull the plug on
:45:44. > :45:48.that and go nowhere for electoral purposes is pretty cynical. Might
:45:49. > :45:54.Nesbitt, would you agree? I want a fairer deal across the issues of
:45:55. > :45:58.parades and the past but Martin McGuinness has not made any easier
:45:59. > :46:03.when he talks about St Patrick's Day being a deadline as if America is
:46:04. > :46:09.trying to force something. The US consul said America cannot set a
:46:10. > :46:13.deadline. It isn't formally setting a deadline, but he said he had a
:46:14. > :46:18.sense America would like to see it wrapped up by Saint Patrick 's Day.
:46:19. > :46:25.We would like to see it wrapped up tomorrow if possible, nor is it
:46:26. > :46:30.helpful for Eamon Gilmore to say what you have just shown him saying.
:46:31. > :46:35.He has acknowledged that flags and parades are effectively strand one
:46:36. > :46:40.issues that are in turn will to the bus back to the affairs of Northern
:46:41. > :46:43.Ireland's and it is not useful for Eamon Gilmore to make that sort of
:46:44. > :46:49.statement. We will hear from him shortly. He made that comment in the
:46:50. > :46:56.wider context of trying to get the whole process to move forward. I
:46:57. > :47:03.will listen carefully to the interview that Yediot the Republic
:47:04. > :47:07.has a role in flags and parades is not true, it is up to the five
:47:08. > :47:12.parties to sort this out. But does he have a role in the whole process
:47:13. > :47:18.to move it forward Chris the Irish Republic has a lot of answers to
:47:19. > :47:22.bring forward in terms of dealing with the past in terms of collusion
:47:23. > :47:27.and the rest. Alistair MacDonald, how do we move forward Chris like is
:47:28. > :47:32.it up to the two governments. The five parties are struggling, we have
:47:33. > :47:35.not been able to get an agreement which should have been made before
:47:36. > :47:41.New Year's Eve, and if it is not possible to do locally, we need the
:47:42. > :47:48.help of two governments and a bit of persuasion to get over the line. We
:47:49. > :47:54.are living in a big brought world out there, the public demand is for
:47:55. > :47:59.stability so we can help progress and children can have jobs and
:48:00. > :48:03.education. It is a simple equation. David Ford, do you agree it is up
:48:04. > :48:11.for the two governments to get in the driving seat? Lets see where we
:48:12. > :48:15.can get first of. The five main parties did not achieve what was
:48:16. > :48:19.needed. When we brought in the independent share, we made
:48:20. > :48:25.significant progress. If people are willing to go out in this week to
:48:26. > :48:30.identify how we made progress and how we look at the issues of parades
:48:31. > :48:34.and flags, because the agreement says we can't agree and we have to.
:48:35. > :48:40.If we get that, we don't need the outside help. Thank you for joining
:48:41. > :48:43.me on the programme. Let's hear what my guests think. Listening to that,
:48:44. > :48:47.the public relations executive Sheila Davidson and the journalist
:48:48. > :48:54.Steven McCaffery. Steven, has that conversation helped nudge us forward
:48:55. > :48:58.or taken us back with Mike? I am struck by the fact this conversation
:48:59. > :49:04.has been going on 18 months and everything that has happened in the
:49:05. > :49:08.intervening process was about putting politics in the driving
:49:09. > :49:13.seat, and it seems like politics is going into a drift which leaves us
:49:14. > :49:18.at the whim of events which is a dangerous place to be. Sheila, what
:49:19. > :49:24.do you make of this bat that happened between the ministers? It
:49:25. > :49:29.didn't look like an accident, it looked like Martin McGuinness wanted
:49:30. > :49:32.to get something off his chest. Everyone understands that party
:49:33. > :49:38.politicking in Northern Ireland is in process. People talk about
:49:39. > :49:43.Sunningdale being for slowly earners and I don't thing we have learned
:49:44. > :49:46.anything. This has been a constructive debate and I have
:49:47. > :49:51.enjoyed listening to the leaders, but that is the kind of debate we
:49:52. > :49:56.want to see in public. We don't want to see this sort of politicking. The
:49:57. > :50:00.electorate is still intelligent and we need to stop playing to the
:50:01. > :50:05.lowest common to nominate and understand there is a huge number of
:50:06. > :50:10.people in Northern Ireland. Steven has pointed this out recently. The
:50:11. > :50:14.divisions are getting lower and lower but there is still a lot of
:50:15. > :50:20.people not on the electoral register. The job of every
:50:21. > :50:23.politician is to get re-elected. What we need to do is understand we
:50:24. > :50:29.have a democratic part of this process. We need to vote and when we
:50:30. > :50:33.get onto the electoral register, we will give our politicians the
:50:34. > :50:36.mandate to speak sensibly, to speak in terms of what everyone wants and
:50:37. > :50:43.not late to the lowest common to dominate. Steven, what about the
:50:44. > :50:47.relationship between Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness? One way of
:50:48. > :50:52.looking at it is that the end of last week has done huge damage to
:50:53. > :50:58.the process and hasn't helped us at all. The other is that they have got
:50:59. > :51:02.off their chest, they have let off steam, said what they wanted to say,
:51:03. > :51:08.and going into Tuesday, it could be more productive. The worrying thing
:51:09. > :51:12.is that we are looking toward St Patrick's Day and help from the
:51:13. > :51:18.Americans, which is a positive thing, but a lot could happen before
:51:19. > :51:21.then. The more fundamental question is where are the British and Irish
:51:22. > :51:26.governments? They have been entirely absent, we are now 18 months into
:51:27. > :51:30.this crisis and I don't think the people of Dublin or London would be
:51:31. > :51:35.asked to put up with what the people of Belfast have over these
:51:36. > :51:40.governments with the two governments deciding what they may or may not
:51:41. > :51:45.do. We will come back to you both later on the programme. The Irish
:51:46. > :51:50.bluster for Foreign Affairs says if necessary there will be -- The Irish
:51:51. > :51:53.Minister for Foreign Affairs says if necessary, there will be joint
:51:54. > :51:56.intervention by the Irish and British governments to get the
:51:57. > :51:58.parties to agree a way forward on the Haass proposals.
:51:59. > :52:01.With relationships between Sinn Fein and the DUP at an all-time low, our
:52:02. > :52:05.political editor, Mark Devenport, asked Eamon Gilmore what he thinks
:52:06. > :52:08.is needed to get the parties to take the next step forward. I believe
:52:09. > :52:11.there is a responsibility on political leadership to respond to
:52:12. > :52:14.the wishes of the public that these issues are resolved and agreement is
:52:15. > :52:19.reached among the political parties to deal with these issues. Dr Haass
:52:20. > :52:24.and Doctor O Sullivan produced a fine draft on New Year's Eve. I
:52:25. > :52:29.hoped that would be accepted and that it would be and is a model, but
:52:30. > :52:33.I believe there is a responsibility on the political parties to reach an
:52:34. > :52:38.agreement on the way forward so Northern Ireland can progress and
:52:39. > :52:41.its people can engage in normal economic and business activity,
:52:42. > :52:47.create jobs and ensure the place prospers. Given that Unionists
:52:48. > :52:52.wouldn't agree to those final proposals, isn't it an inevitable
:52:53. > :52:59.they will have to be renegotiated? I don't think so. I think there is an
:53:00. > :53:04.issue over the next steps here. I am encouraged parties have met this
:53:05. > :53:07.week and will meet again next, and both the British and Irish
:53:08. > :53:10.governments are keeping in close contact with the political leaders
:53:11. > :53:16.and those discussions. We support and encourage them to try to reach
:53:17. > :53:21.an agreement. We are available to provide any help we can to them, and
:53:22. > :53:25.we will fulfil our obligations as co-directors of the agreements. But
:53:26. > :53:31.there haven't been pre-agreements where the governments were either at
:53:32. > :53:36.the table and able to administer a stick or wave a carrot in front of
:53:37. > :53:41.the parties. One good thing about this process is that it began in
:53:42. > :53:48.Northern Ireland among the parties, it was the ministers of the Northern
:53:49. > :53:51.Ireland Executive who invited Dr Haass and Doctor O Sullivan to
:53:52. > :53:56.charities talks. The two governments were guarantors, we have been in
:53:57. > :54:05.close contact with the parties and we have been in contact with Dr
:54:06. > :54:10.Haass as well. Why should the two parties be able to make progress on
:54:11. > :54:16.their own when they weren't able to make it with the assistance of Dr
:54:17. > :54:20.Haass? Political parties have a range of jurisdictions to make
:54:21. > :54:25.agreements. That is the process of politics, that is what needs to
:54:26. > :54:28.happen. The issues at stake are issues within Northern Ireland, the
:54:29. > :54:33.flanks protests takes place within Northern Ireland, the parades take
:54:34. > :54:37.place on the streets of Northern Ireland and the issues related to
:54:38. > :54:41.the past are mainly in Northern Ireland. There are responsibilities
:54:42. > :54:48.that both governments have relating to these issues and we will fulfil
:54:49. > :54:52.those, but the primary agreement must be among the political parties.
:54:53. > :54:54.They will have the support of the Irish government and I know from my
:54:55. > :55:00.discussions with Theresa Villiers that they will have the support of
:55:01. > :55:04.the British government. Theresa Villiers has offered to chair talks.
:55:05. > :55:09.Martin McGuinness says he does not favour that although Peter Robinson
:55:10. > :55:15.said he would favour it, so is there a role for both governments to make
:55:16. > :55:18.some joint intervention? I think if there is an intervention it will be
:55:19. > :55:23.an intervention by both elements together. We are agreed that this is
:55:24. > :55:27.something that both governments will work together on. If necessary we
:55:28. > :55:30.will have to do that, but I hope that it will be possible that the
:55:31. > :55:33.political parties in Northern Ireland will be able to reach
:55:34. > :55:36.agreement among themselves. I think that that's appropriate, because
:55:37. > :55:38.these are issues that have to be resolved in Northern Ireland. But
:55:39. > :55:43.the two governments are determined that we should not allow these
:55:44. > :55:50.issues to drift Tom I don't think there is a very long period of time
:55:51. > :55:56.within which this can continue. I think the rays urgency about getting
:55:57. > :55:59.these issues resolved and making sure 2014 is a year in which
:56:00. > :56:06.Northern Ireland moves forward. It has emerged that Joe Biden made a
:56:07. > :56:09.phone call to Peter Robinson to try to push towards agreement and Martin
:56:10. > :56:15.McGuinness is now talking about Saint Patrick 's Day as the next
:56:16. > :56:22.deadline. What do you believe is the real role now for the US? I know
:56:23. > :56:28.from our own discussions with the US administration and I have had the
:56:29. > :56:30.chance over the past period to discuss these issues with Vice
:56:31. > :56:36.President Biden and Secretary of State Kerry and President Obama, and
:56:37. > :56:40.we have kept in close contact through our embassy in Washington
:56:41. > :56:46.with the US administration and the US Embassy in Dublin has also kept
:56:47. > :56:50.in close contact with us. I know the US is interested to see this issue
:56:51. > :56:55.resolved and I think that is important because there is an issue
:56:56. > :56:59.of reputation, investment, the creation of jobs and all that goes
:57:00. > :57:04.with it depends on these issues being resolved and Northern Ireland
:57:05. > :57:06.being seen internationally as a good place to invest.
:57:07. > :57:09.The Tanaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, Eamon Gilmore,
:57:10. > :57:16.speaking to Mark Devenport. Sheila Davidson and they wouldn't -- and
:57:17. > :57:19.Steven McCaffery are still with me. It didn't look like he has a huge
:57:20. > :57:26.desire to get involved too quickly. It is up to local parties. I don't
:57:27. > :57:31.think either government has any agenda to get involved and that is
:57:32. > :57:37.probably right. I think it is time for our local parties to step up. We
:57:38. > :57:41.have been to endless processes and deadlines but now is the time for
:57:42. > :57:45.them to show what they are made of. Some of the biggest additions have
:57:46. > :57:50.already been made and we understand that, some of the biggest sacrifices
:57:51. > :57:56.have been made, and this is about getting us over the line and it
:57:57. > :58:00.shouldn't be a problem. There was talk of the Irish government being
:58:01. > :58:04.involved in Stroud one. I don't think we could accuse either
:58:05. > :58:10.government of rushing into anything. Earlier are reasonably is suggested
:58:11. > :58:16.getting involved with the Haass proposals -- Behar stalks, but for
:58:17. > :58:21.how long have we been waiting for in involvement and it still goes on.
:58:22. > :58:27.Let's pause and take a look back at the week in 60 seconds, with Gareth
:58:28. > :58:33.Gordon. Controversial views on his successor
:58:34. > :58:38.from the former DUP leader. It should not have been done. I think
:58:39. > :58:47.he thought there was going to be a tremendous uprising as a result of
:58:48. > :58:50.it. Peter Robinson begged to differ. If we are going to have interviews
:58:51. > :58:55.about the past, it is better to have them when they are fresh in people
:58:56. > :59:01.'s minds. Martin McGuinness's claimed that progressive loyalism
:59:02. > :59:06.and the UVF or link did not go down well. The attempt to distract from
:59:07. > :59:16.the Sinn Fein's glorification of past terrorist crimes. He repeated
:59:17. > :59:22.the allegation. They rigged -- they agree with my analysis. In Belfast,
:59:23. > :59:28.the PUP, the UVF and the Orange Order are one and the same thing.
:59:29. > :59:34.And could the Teletubbies change attitudes in North Korea? They could
:59:35. > :59:40.according to MLA Jim Shannon. Just a final word. Steven, looking
:59:41. > :59:49.ahead to that pays the documentary, a lot of anticipation. He seems very
:59:50. > :59:52.focused on making it about Peter Robinson and the current DUP so we
:59:53. > :59:59.will have to see how that wrestling match works out. Worth watching?
:00:00. > :00:03.Yes, some insights into what happened and questions about what
:00:04. > :00:08.Ian Paisley said at his time at the departure and what he is saying now.
:00:09. > :00:11.Regardless of what people are saying about the rightness or wrongness of
:00:12. > :00:15.his recollections, getting them on record is well worth it. A lot of
:00:16. > :00:20.people say it is about rewriting history. History is always being
:00:21. > :00:32.rewritten and it is in houses being built by the mayor.
:00:33. > :00:37.Andrew, back to you. Welcome back. Now she made quite a splash last
:00:38. > :00:41.night. I am talking, of course, of the Portsmouth North MP, Penny
:00:42. > :00:44.Mordaunt. If you missed her first appearance in ITV's celebrity diving
:00:45. > :00:59.competition show, here she is in action.
:01:00. > :01:16.APPLAUSE Here is a lady who is more used to
:01:17. > :01:22.campaigning for votes than diving for them. She created far too much
:01:23. > :01:34.rotation. Hard work has gone into the start of this dive to try and
:01:35. > :01:37.control it. That looked painful. Now the Portsmouth North MP got voted
:01:38. > :01:40.off the show last night but what about the verdict that really
:01:41. > :01:43.matters? The newly appointed Minister for Portsmouth, Michael
:01:44. > :01:50.Fallon, is here. Welcome to the programme. I would give her ten out
:01:51. > :01:53.of ten for bravery. I was cheering her on. She was doing this for a
:01:54. > :02:01.local charity, raising money for the local swimming pool. She was a good
:02:02. > :02:04.sport. As Minister for Portsmouth, can we expect to see you in your
:02:05. > :02:09.swimming trunks for the next series? I do not think I have the
:02:10. > :02:14.spare time at the moment. But there is a big challenge in Portsmouth.
:02:15. > :02:20.Penny Mordaunt and the other local MPs there have been remorseless in
:02:21. > :02:27.asking ministers to help the city. They are losing jobs. There is a
:02:28. > :02:34.goblin Trinity -- there is a big opportunity to create jobs. Should
:02:35. > :02:37.she have been on a celebrity television show of their role these
:02:38. > :02:43.problems in Portsmouth? This was in her spare time and it is raising
:02:44. > :02:50.money for a good cause. I do not think we should eat two sniffy about
:02:51. > :02:56.it. Did I not see you dressed up on Thursday night, doing your
:02:57. > :03:04.programme? This is my job. This is not her job. It was in her spare
:03:05. > :03:12.time, she was raising money for a local charity. Your Minister for
:03:13. > :03:15.Portsmouth. Are we going to have a minister for every town? Are we
:03:16. > :03:18.going to have a minister for Chipping Sodbury? Chipping Sodbury
:03:19. > :03:26.does not have the issues that Portsmouth have -- that Portsmouth
:03:27. > :03:31.has. There are jobs at risk in shipbuilding. The government puts in
:03:32. > :03:36.a lot of money through the regional growth fund, some ?20 million. There
:03:37. > :03:41.are range of government funding streams going into Portsmouth. My
:03:42. > :03:46.job is to make sure that is properly coordinated. I need to make sure
:03:47. > :03:49.that Portsmouth seizes this opportunity to develop a more
:03:50. > :03:53.broadly -based marine and maritime economy. To make sure a marginal
:03:54. > :03:59.seat stays Tory at the next election? There are marginal seats
:04:00. > :04:09.everywhere. There is a Liberal Democrat marginal the -- seat. Vince
:04:10. > :04:13.Cable and I have been working together for the issues that
:04:14. > :04:18.Portsmouth is facing. We work on these things together. But I have
:04:19. > :04:23.the very specific job of making sure that the effort on the ground is
:04:24. > :04:27.coordinated. So Vince Cable is not the Minister for Portsmouth? I have
:04:28. > :04:35.been there recently, so has Vince Cable. So there are two ministers
:04:36. > :04:39.for Portsmouth? Just a minute. I am making sure that the effort is
:04:40. > :04:42.properly coordinated on the ground. I am determined to turn this
:04:43. > :04:50.challenging time into a proper opportunity. Should we be to Paul
:04:51. > :04:54.faced about this? No, good honour. How much money would be have to pay
:04:55. > :05:01.you to get into a swimming costume? Bid is not enough money in the BBC
:05:02. > :05:07.covers. Good on her. It took seven years to get a leg there's an MP.
:05:08. > :05:11.She should be a minister. It is a pity she has the spare time to do
:05:12. > :05:17.this. She is very talented. It is interesting about the Minister for
:05:18. > :05:23.Portsmouth, up in the north-east they must be sad that they do not
:05:24. > :05:26.have any marginal seats. Nick Brown as David Cameron last July, can we
:05:27. > :05:32.have a minister for the north-east, and the Prime Minister is said no?
:05:33. > :05:39.Does this mean that Portsmouth is more deprived economic late than the
:05:40. > :05:41.north-east? No, it means it is a marginal seat.
:05:42. > :05:44.The Labour Leader Ed Miliband was on the Andrew Marr programme this
:05:45. > :05:47.morning and he outlined plans under a Labour government for an annual
:05:48. > :05:49.competition audit. Here is what he had to say. The next Labour
:05:50. > :05:53.government will have an annual competition at it, not just done by
:05:54. > :05:58.the regulatory body. Alongside them will be the citizens advice bureau,
:05:59. > :06:01.setting the agenda for the future, setting the agenda for how we can
:06:02. > :06:07.ensure that competition will benefit consumers and businesses. I want to
:06:08. > :06:09.see Labour going into the next election as the party of
:06:10. > :06:15.competition, the party of the consumer, the party of hard-pressed
:06:16. > :06:19.working families who are struggling. They need somebody to deal with
:06:20. > :06:23.those issues and that is what the next Labour government will do. I
:06:24. > :06:29.thought you were meant to be the party of competition? We are the
:06:30. > :06:34.party of competition. This is the party that has given us some of
:06:35. > :06:37.these problems. We have an annual competition review in the energy
:06:38. > :06:43.sector. We have already tackling banking. What is interesting about
:06:44. > :06:47.his proposal is it is the smaller ones who are less sure about this,
:06:48. > :06:51.the smaller banks who think that this could inhibit the growth. It is
:06:52. > :06:55.the smaller energy companies who think that through interfering with
:06:56. > :07:01.the market, through his price freeze, that he will hinder
:07:02. > :07:07.competition. We spoke about this before. It is a clever pitch that Ed
:07:08. > :07:12.Miliband is making. Under the guise of token markets and claiming to be
:07:13. > :07:18.the party of competition, he is creating the reason for state
:07:19. > :07:22.intervention? -- broken markets. Exactly, and it is state
:07:23. > :07:30.intervention that does not work. There is a proud tradition in
:07:31. > :07:34.government of smashing open cartels. Teddy Roosevelt did it nearly a
:07:35. > :07:37.century ago. The problem is, in those situations it was clear and
:07:38. > :07:44.obvious that the consumers were suffering. I am not sure it is
:07:45. > :07:48.entirely obvious in this country. In the banking sector we have free
:07:49. > :07:53.current accounts in the high street. That is not true in all Western
:07:54. > :07:56.countries. In the energy sector, our bills are not outlandish they high.
:07:57. > :08:03.It is when we take taxes into account the become unaffordable. He
:08:04. > :08:08.has to make the case that consumers are suffering as a result of these
:08:09. > :08:13.monopolies. Ed Miliband would say it is not about state intervention, but
:08:14. > :08:18.about making markets work. The piece that was written by his intellectual
:08:19. > :08:21.Duryea about the significance and the importance of Teddy Roosevelt.
:08:22. > :08:28.He was the Republican president in the yearly -- in the early years of
:08:29. > :08:35.the last century. He wanted markets to work. There is an interesting
:08:36. > :08:40.debate on Twitter this morning. Tim Montgomerie is saying, why are we,
:08:41. > :08:50.the Conservative Party, not seen as the party of Teddy Roosevelt? We are
:08:51. > :08:54.seen as the party of business. There are smaller energy companies
:08:55. > :08:59.competing against the big six. In banking, we have seen smaller
:09:00. > :09:04.companies coming. It was the Labour government that created the big six
:09:05. > :09:09.energy companies. I think Teddy Roosevelt also invaded Cuba and the
:09:10. > :09:14.Philippines. That could give us a clue as to Ed Miliband's foreign
:09:15. > :09:19.policy. Nigel Farage has promised to purge the party of its more extreme
:09:20. > :09:23.candidates ahead of the European Council elections in May. But that
:09:24. > :09:32.may not be going so well. Listen to this. The latest in this process is
:09:33. > :09:39.these homosexual laws. And Thomas I shall manage. I believe that the
:09:40. > :09:45.Prime Minister, who was warned that disasters would follow a three went
:09:46. > :09:50.in this direction, he has persisted, and I believe that this is largely a
:09:51. > :09:56.repercussion from this godlessness that he has persisted in. The
:09:57. > :10:01.instructions I have got from now on, or is just not to answer in, and not
:10:02. > :10:08.to give interviews such as this one. So you are ignoring them? I am not
:10:09. > :10:12.ignoring them. But you are talking to me? You are the last one I shall
:10:13. > :10:18.be speaking to. I think it is too late. Who would have thought it? It
:10:19. > :10:24.is not global warming that is causing the floods, it is gay
:10:25. > :10:28.marriage? That explains it. Last year David Cameron offered a coded
:10:29. > :10:33.retraction of his statement that UKIP is full of fruit cakes. I think
:10:34. > :10:38.he will be tempted to retract the retraction. It is a warning to lots
:10:39. > :10:46.of Tories who think that their best interests are served by flirting
:10:47. > :10:49.with lace -- with UKIP. Nigel Farage is a very plausible guy, but several
:10:50. > :10:55.layers down, there are people who are very different. Nigel Farage is
:10:56. > :11:00.saying that he's going to clear the party out of what Mr Cameron called
:11:01. > :11:05.the fruitcakes. If he is true to his word, Mr Sylvester's days in the
:11:06. > :11:15.party should they numbered. If Nigel Farage falls under the bus, what is
:11:16. > :11:21.left of place -- what is left of UKIP? People say that they like UKIP
:11:22. > :11:27.because unlike other politicians, they speak their mind. But as it
:11:28. > :11:32.turns into more of a proper organisation, people speaking their
:11:33. > :11:36.mind will be less acceptable. The European elections are always a
:11:37. > :11:40.protest vote. People are not happy with the elite. You will get people
:11:41. > :11:47.saying utterly ridiculous things like that man in Henley-on-Thames.
:11:48. > :11:49.But this is a chance to vote against the entire political establishment.
:11:50. > :11:58.I am not sure that comments like that will make much of a difference.
:11:59. > :12:03.There are lots of arguments about climate change. That was certainly a
:12:04. > :12:08.new one! They are the only big protest party at the moment. Protest
:12:09. > :12:13.party is obviously hoovered up lots of votes. We have got to be clear in
:12:14. > :12:18.European message that we are the only party that can reform Europe
:12:19. > :12:23.and give people a proper choice, the first referendum in over 40 years.
:12:24. > :12:28.Mr Sylvester used to be a conservative. You're probably glad
:12:29. > :12:33.to see the back of him? David Cameron is right, there are probably
:12:34. > :12:36.a few fruitcakes around there. I think that mainstream conservatives
:12:37. > :12:42.will understand that this is the only party that can secure European
:12:43. > :12:46.reform and give people the choice they have been arguing for. Whatever
:12:47. > :12:52.happens in the European elections, it is a protest vote. We have almost
:12:53. > :12:52.run out of time. We will see this week of Chris
:12:53. > :12:56.run out of time. We will see this week of Chris Rennard gets the party
:12:57. > :13:02.whip act. There is a battle brewing between Danny Alexander and the
:13:03. > :13:07.common side of the Liberal Democrats and the House of Lords. If he turns
:13:08. > :13:14.up on Monday and asks to be let in, I they going to make a big scene at
:13:15. > :13:21.the gate of Parliament? And the issue will stay in the papers? Yes,
:13:22. > :13:29.they are clearly nervous that Lord Rennard might be tempted to mount a
:13:30. > :13:33.legal bid. That is all for today. Thanks to all my guests. The Daily
:13:34. > :13:37.Politics is back on Monday at midday on BBC Two. And I will be here again
:13:38. > :14:03.next week. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.
:14:04. > :14:06.shocking set of statistics. In some British South Asian communities,
:14:07. > :14:09.women carrying girl babies are more likely to terminate their
:14:10. > :14:13.pregnancies if they already have a daughter. In England and Wales, up
:14:14. > :14:16.to 4,700 females were lost in this way. Such is the pressure to deliver
:14:17. > :14:20.sons that these women preferred to have an abortion than face the
:14:21. > :14:21.consequence of disappointing their husband and his