:01:27. > :01:30.Coming up in Northern Ireland: Testing times in education - as
:01:30. > :01:40.schools fight to keep selection, can the Catholic Church break the
:01:40. > :01:40.
:01:40. > :30:21.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1721 seconds
:30:21. > :30:24.deadlock? We'll ask Bishop Donal Hello and welcome to Sunday
:30:24. > :30:27.Politics in Northern Ireland. Cast your mind back to last week when
:30:27. > :30:29.the Finance Minister told us welfare reform was about creating a
:30:29. > :30:38.fairer system for taxpayers and getting people back to work. But
:30:38. > :30:45.what about the changes to housing benefit? It is moving towards an
:30:45. > :30:47.American situation. And it's more than 10 years since Martin
:30:47. > :30:51.McGuinness announced plans to scrap the 11-plus, but academic selection
:30:51. > :30:55.shows no sign of being consigned to the history books. What's the
:30:55. > :31:04.solution? In a moment, I'll be asking our political guests of the
:31:04. > :31:06.day for their answers. So, the time for fine words is over.
:31:06. > :31:09.But as Catholic grammars continue to back selection, the Education
:31:10. > :31:19.Minister, John O'Dowd, has said it's up to the Church to break the
:31:20. > :31:20.
:31:20. > :31:26.deadlock. I'm joined by Bishop Donal McKeown. The minister has
:31:26. > :31:33.thrown down the gauntlet. Where you pick it up? We all recognise, in
:31:33. > :31:38.education, that the key thing here it is not selection. The key thing
:31:38. > :31:44.is how do we create an education system for our young people, fit
:31:44. > :31:49.for the 21st century? This system we have had is a result of another
:31:49. > :31:58.era. Until the early seventies, those children who do not go to
:31:58. > :32:03.grammar schools, had no qualifications. In Northern Ireland,
:32:03. > :32:09.at 40% over our school leavers leave without GCSEs. We have to
:32:09. > :32:13.find a way of educating our young people with excellence. It is a
:32:13. > :32:19.mistake to focus on the idea of selection. But that is the focus.
:32:19. > :32:25.10 years ago, the Education Minister has grabbed the 11-plus.
:32:25. > :32:31.Do you have the authority to stop schools having the 11-plus? We are
:32:31. > :32:37.looking to find a way for how every area can look after its children.
:32:37. > :32:44.And what we come across his parents who say they want the best for
:32:44. > :32:50.their children. But do you have the authority to Scott -- stop schools
:32:50. > :33:00.under your control having a selection test? Decisions are made
:33:00. > :33:04.by boards or governors. They ultimately are the ones who make
:33:04. > :33:10.decisions about entrance criteria for schools. We have to recognise
:33:10. > :33:15.the equilibrium between parents and principles, and trustees. They all
:33:15. > :33:19.have a role to play. The Catholic Church is not a Stalinist
:33:19. > :33:25.organisation. We are looking to find a way where our society does
:33:25. > :33:33.not keep avoiding the real issue at how to look after 100% of our
:33:33. > :33:38.children, and not just 40%. If the education minister it says we must
:33:38. > :33:44.scrap selection, it would you bring that in it and scrap selection and
:33:44. > :33:54.I have a merger? The trustees are at looking for a solution for North
:33:54. > :33:58.Belfast. None of this court will be able to say they stand alone. --
:33:58. > :34:02.none of this calls. The idea of faith and Catholicism it is that we
:34:02. > :34:10.are responsible for one another and with one another for global out
:34:10. > :34:16.comes. Therefore, no one can stand alone. There is a social justice
:34:16. > :34:22.and moral issue here. But that is what is happening - parents and
:34:22. > :34:27.trustees are protecting themselves. The trustees are clear - we are
:34:27. > :34:33.moving away from a selection. Psychologists say you cannot
:34:33. > :34:43.measure intelligence, in a way that makes you able to allocate two
:34:43. > :34:49.
:34:49. > :34:54.separate sort of education. That is psychological bunkum. So you do
:34:54. > :34:59.need to get rid of selection? course you do. Every other society
:34:59. > :35:08.has done. We have got a mediocre system, precisely because of
:35:08. > :35:14.academic selection. 40% do not have five GCSEs! Has the commission
:35:14. > :35:24.failed in its role to convince the Catholic grammars sector to end
:35:24. > :35:27.
:35:27. > :35:33.selection? We began this process five years ago. We cannot give
:35:33. > :35:42.everybody... Leadership is about saying, wet your weak crude be
:35:42. > :35:49.sustainable future for all of young people? -- where can we create. We
:35:49. > :35:54.are taking a lot of risks to find an agreed way forward. But we all
:35:54. > :36:00.need to look after everybody, and look out for everybody. Would be
:36:00. > :36:04.better if tests were made illegal? That will not happen. We cannot
:36:04. > :36:14.pretend it's something happened, things would be different. But why
:36:14. > :36:20.a woman not happen? -- but why will it not happen? Because politicians
:36:20. > :36:27.have argued that tests remained legal. We have to find ways of
:36:27. > :36:36.reassuring parents, who want good education for their children, but
:36:36. > :36:40.you do not have to have academic selection. That people need not be
:36:40. > :36:44.afraid of change, because we were not experiment on your children -
:36:45. > :36:53.we are looking to find a solid chance a mission to a better way.
:36:53. > :37:01.We have to challenge those who are concerned only for themselves. --
:37:01. > :37:05.we are looking to find a solution. Your party is opposed to scrapping
:37:05. > :37:11.selection. Do you understand and take on board some of these things
:37:11. > :37:21.the bishop has said? The bishop is a right when he said it legally,
:37:21. > :37:22.
:37:22. > :37:30.nothing will change. Let us dispense MF - that testing does not
:37:30. > :37:39.take place in it not selective schools. -- dispense a mirthful
:37:39. > :37:45.stop -- take place in non selective schools. An example within the
:37:45. > :37:51.Catholic sector, given to us as an example of a bilateral school,
:37:51. > :38:01.which has moved away from the selective system - this tests
:38:01. > :38:03.
:38:03. > :38:11.children very aggressively. It establishes a level of ability, on
:38:11. > :38:16.where that child should be placed to get the best education. What has
:38:16. > :38:21.happened within the Catholic sector is a reflection of what has
:38:21. > :38:26.happened in society - parents still believe, and have that choice, to
:38:26. > :38:36.make a choice of a school that uses academic assessment. Can we get a
:38:36. > :38:37.
:38:37. > :38:42.better way of doing it? I believe we can. In discussions I have had,
:38:42. > :38:48.I believe progress is being made. But that progress will not be made
:38:48. > :38:56.at the expense of non-selective schools. We have to ensure that we
:38:56. > :39:04.have a provision which has bought all the children. His there a
:39:04. > :39:14.double standard in your party? Your party will never abolish selection,
:39:14. > :39:17.
:39:17. > :39:23.will it? Let us look at the Bishop's record. A Sinn Fein
:39:23. > :39:29.solution will fail. They did not have the power to prevent sectarian
:39:29. > :39:33.exams getting started. We need to start from the fact that the
:39:34. > :39:40.current way we do selection is inappropriate. No one believes
:39:40. > :39:46.there are merits in subjecting children to exams. What pressure
:39:46. > :39:50.you put in on the Catholic Church in particular? We need to try and
:39:50. > :39:57.have a proper political debate. you have been debating this for 10
:39:57. > :40:01.years? No, we haven't. How many times have children or -- have
:40:01. > :40:11.people debated the future of education? And one manifesto, for
:40:11. > :40:12.
:40:12. > :40:18.example, we made recommendations about the types of education. -- in
:40:18. > :40:22.a word manifesto. There is an awful habit of looking south of the
:40:22. > :40:27.border. We should not be thinking that way. We should be thinking
:40:27. > :40:37.about what works here, which are good second racecourse and grammars.
:40:37. > :40:38.
:40:38. > :40:48.Do we have the courage to build on that? -- good secondary schools. We
:40:48. > :40:58.need educational excellence, not just academic. Bishop, or back to
:40:58. > :40:58.
:40:58. > :41:04.the original point, all you do in the meantime? -- what will you do.
:41:04. > :41:09.We have to face the need for change, and find ways forward as a society.
:41:09. > :41:17.The danger is that decisions are taken by none education. I have a
:41:17. > :41:23.passion for it. I told the 23 years. I come with a passion for education.
:41:23. > :41:29.-- I taught for. We must look after our young people. We cannot just
:41:29. > :41:39.focus on success of aim minority. We will remain in the doldrums and
:41:39. > :41:43.
:41:43. > :41:46.the sweet educate all our young people. -- and educate.
:41:46. > :41:49.Among the raft of welfare reforms heading towards us from Westminster
:41:49. > :41:52.is a major cut to housing benefit. Welfare rights campaigners fear it
:41:52. > :41:54.will lead to widespread social upheaval as people are forced to
:41:54. > :42:04.move home. Yvette Shapiro has been to Derry, where tenants and
:42:04. > :42:08.
:42:08. > :42:13.landlords are feeling the effects Eamonn Brown is unemployed and
:42:13. > :42:18.lives alone in a one-bedroom flat in Derry's Bogside. His rent of
:42:18. > :42:21.more than �80 a week is covered by housing benefit. Under the new
:42:21. > :42:26.rules affecting private sector tenants aged 24-35, he'll be
:42:26. > :42:34.reassed later this year, and his benefit will be more than halved.
:42:34. > :42:40.Eamonn will have to move to a shared house. I am angry about it.
:42:40. > :42:47.It is not just me, this affect everybody. I will have to live with
:42:47. > :42:56.other people. The ball who pay taxes will be made homeless because
:42:56. > :43:06.of these cuts. -- people. Berry has one of the most unemployed places
:43:06. > :43:10.
:43:10. > :43:15.in Northern Ireland. Landlords have to get the best possible deal
:43:15. > :43:20.themselves. It is a business, at the end of the day. If it is a
:43:20. > :43:23.choice between taking reduced rent and no rent, I think I know what
:43:23. > :43:29.decision the landlord will make. Again, it will vary from place to
:43:29. > :43:35.place. In some places, they will be able to hold up. In other places,
:43:35. > :43:39.the rent or be forced down, and somebody may have to move from one
:43:39. > :43:41.part of the city to another. minister concedes that his
:43:41. > :43:43.department and the housing executive, which is under his
:43:43. > :43:46.control, has failed to build enough accommodation for single people,
:43:46. > :43:48.young and old. A new housing strategy, due to be unveiled
:43:48. > :43:57.shortly, will contain plans for remodelling existing properties and
:43:57. > :43:59.building new ones. He won't be drawn on suggestions that landlords
:43:59. > :44:06.may be able to get grants to convert properties into shared
:44:06. > :44:09.houses for single people. The changes to housing benefit aren't
:44:09. > :44:12.just affecting young single tenants. Welfare rights campaigners fear
:44:12. > :44:20.there will be widespread social upheaval and hardship as a result
:44:20. > :44:25.of the benefit cuts. It is really moving towards an American
:44:25. > :44:29.situation, where children are moved from pillar to post, moving schools
:44:29. > :44:36.within the school year. The difference between us and America
:44:36. > :44:45.is housing benefit. It is the big difference. There is a danger of
:44:45. > :44:52.being extremist and alarmist. There may be folk living in houses that
:44:52. > :44:58.are too expensive for their situation. They may have to move to
:44:58. > :45:01.other accommodation. Folk move all the time. Last year, more than half
:45:01. > :45:04.a billion pounds was paid out in housing benefit in Northern Ireland,
:45:04. > :45:09.an increase of nearly 11 % on the previous 12 months. Almost 280
:45:09. > :45:12.million of that went to private landlords. It's estimated that the
:45:12. > :45:18.latest benefit changes will affect around 6000 young people, losing on
:45:18. > :45:22.average �29 per week. A discretionary payment fund,
:45:22. > :45:25.operated by the housing executive, is to be doubled in April. Almost
:45:25. > :45:29.3.5 million will be made available to help tenants who are facing cuts
:45:29. > :45:36.in their housing benefit. But is there more that Stormont
:45:36. > :45:43.politicians could do to soften the blow? They could introduce rent
:45:44. > :45:49.control, they could ensure hardship payments, but they will be
:45:49. > :45:57.available to everybody. And that those payments will continue.
:45:57. > :46:07.bear a lot of young people who need housing. You will see people
:46:07. > :46:18.
:46:18. > :46:28.His Romanes as saying that people need to get on their bikes? -- is
:46:28. > :46:32.
:46:32. > :46:39.your minister. They need to address the concerns that exist. The
:46:39. > :46:43.Minister is very clear - it is regrettable that while other
:46:43. > :46:47.parties have responsibility for housing provision, they have
:46:47. > :46:54.decided to build three bedroom provisions, as opposed to dealing
:46:54. > :46:59.with the issue of the housing waiting list. Over half of that is
:46:59. > :47:07.single parents. There is a legacy there that needs to be addressed.
:47:07. > :47:17.It was all your fault, then? when you we could build enough
:47:17. > :47:21.houses. -- if only we could. This is the tip of the iceberg. The
:47:21. > :47:28.minister for social development is saying this is the type of merger
:47:28. > :47:35.that will impact even worse than this region. What would you do
:47:35. > :47:44.differently? We are about to have the acid test of this in the
:47:44. > :47:48.assembly. I that they step up to the mark -- by the they step. If we
:47:48. > :47:54.don't stand and a ground here, and have a welfare system for this
:47:54. > :47:59.region, and we don't do it soon, we will effectively surrender or
:47:59. > :48:07.control over support for the most marginalised in our society to the
:48:07. > :48:13.British government. Would you support that? It is in Westminster
:48:13. > :48:18.that gives us the money to run away services. There are many people,
:48:18. > :48:22.working families, who listen to this programme, who have concern
:48:22. > :48:27.about the income they get. The issue that needs to be addressed is
:48:27. > :48:30.by way of getting a fair and balanced system.
:48:30. > :48:37.Now for our regular look at the week in sixty seconds, this time in
:48:37. > :48:40.the company of political correspondent, Gareth Gordon.
:48:40. > :48:45.A good week for the construction industry as the Executive confirmed
:48:45. > :48:48.almost �600 million is to be spent on roads and hospitals. But there
:48:48. > :48:58.was disappointment for those needing answers about the La Mon
:48:58. > :48:59.
:48:59. > :49:02.bombing. There is very little information. A lot of questions are
:49:02. > :49:06.left unanswered. Glasgow Rangers faced their most
:49:06. > :49:08.difficult opponent - the tax man. It was asked why MLAs couldn't be
:49:08. > :49:15.officially allowed to use iPads in the Assembly, and we learnt
:49:15. > :49:22.listening is also a problem for these men. I couldn't anything at
:49:22. > :49:29.all with my left ear. I woke up in the morning. There was no illness
:49:29. > :49:32.or accident associated with it. And in Derry, the new Peace Plaza
:49:32. > :49:42.was opened on Valentine's Night - the perfect occasion for couples
:49:42. > :49:53.