19/03/2017

:00:35. > :00:38.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:39. > :00:41.She faces huge political fights over Brexit, Scottish independence,

:00:42. > :00:54.After a tumultuous political week, we'll analyse the PM's prospects.

:00:55. > :00:56.With chatter increasing about a possible early General Election,

:00:57. > :01:01.Jeremy Corbyn's campaign chief joins me live.

:01:02. > :01:04.NHS bosses warn health services in England are facing "mission

:01:05. > :01:08.impossible" and waiting times for operations will rocket,

:01:09. > :01:11.unless hospitals are given more cash this year.

:01:12. > :01:15.The chief executive of NHS Providers joins me live.

:01:16. > :01:17.And coming up here: Eight days to go until the deadline

:01:18. > :01:23.Plus, the view from Washington - a senior Congressman tells us

:01:24. > :01:36.All that to come before 12:15pm, and I'll also be talking

:01:37. > :01:38.to the former leader of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg

:01:39. > :01:41.from his party's spring conference in York.

:01:42. > :01:45.With me here in the studio, throughout the programme,

:01:46. > :01:47.three of the country's top political commentators:

:01:48. > :01:53.Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

:01:54. > :01:55.They'll be tweeting their thoughts using #bbcsp.

:01:56. > :01:58.So, the political challenges facing Theresa May are stacking up.

:01:59. > :02:04.As well as negotiating Britain's exit from the EU,

:02:05. > :02:07.the PM must now deal with SNP demands for a second referendum

:02:08. > :02:11.on Scottish independence, backbenchers agitating against cuts

:02:12. > :02:14.to school budgets, and a humiliated Chancellor forced to u-turn on a key

:02:15. > :02:19.budget measure just one week after announcing it.

:02:20. > :02:21.Here's Adam Fleming on aturbulent political week

:02:22. > :02:38.Monday, 11:30am, TV crews gather in the residence of the First

:02:39. > :02:40.Minister of Scotland, who's got a surprise.

:02:41. > :02:42.She wants a vote on whether Scotland should leave the UK

:02:43. > :02:47.By taking the steps I have set out today I am ensuring that Scotland's

:02:48. > :02:49.future will be decided, not just by me, the

:02:50. > :02:50.Scottish Government, or the

:02:51. > :02:53.SNP, it will be decided by the people of Scotland.

:02:54. > :03:03.Westminster, 6:25pm the same day, MPs reject

:03:04. > :03:06.amendments to the legislation authorising the Prime Minister to

:03:07. > :03:20.The Bill ceremonially heads to the Lords where peers abandoned

:03:21. > :03:22.attempts to change it and it becomes law.

:03:23. > :03:29.But Downing Street doesn't trigger Article 50 as many had expected.

:03:30. > :03:31.Some say they were spooked by Nicola Sturgeon.

:03:32. > :03:48.We get an e-mail from the Treasury can the

:03:49. > :03:50.We get an e-mail from the Treasury cancelling

:03:51. > :04:01.the planned rise in National Insurance for

:04:02. > :04:02.the self-employed announced the budget.

:04:03. > :04:04.It's just minutes before Prime Minister's Questions at noon.

:04:05. > :04:06.The trend towards greater self-employment does create a

:04:07. > :04:09.We will bring forward further proposals

:04:10. > :04:12.but we will not bring forward increases to NICs later in this

:04:13. > :04:16.It seems to me like a government in a bit of chaos here.

:04:17. > :04:19.By making this change today we are listening to our colleagues

:04:20. > :04:23.fulfil both the letter and the spirit of our manifesto tax

:04:24. > :04:32.Thursday, 7am, Conservative campaign HQ and the

:04:33. > :04:34.Electoral Commission fines the party ?70,000 for misreporting spending

:04:35. > :04:37.But that's not what the Prime Minister

:04:38. > :04:44.Because at 12:19pm she gives her verdict on a

:04:45. > :04:48.We should be working together, not pulling apart.

:04:49. > :04:50.We should be working together to get that

:04:51. > :04:52.right deal for Scotland, that

:04:53. > :04:57.So, as I say, that's my job as Prime Minister and

:04:58. > :05:00.so for that reason I say to the SNP now is not the time.

:05:01. > :05:02.Friday and time for the faithful to gather.

:05:03. > :05:04.SNP activists at their spring conference

:05:05. > :05:15.Conservatives in Cardiff to hear the Prime Minister

:05:16. > :05:18.promote her plan for a more meritocratic Brexit Britain.

:05:19. > :05:21.At 11:10am comes some news about a newspaper that's frankly

:05:22. > :05:27.I'm thrilled and excited to be the new editor of The

:05:28. > :05:29.Evening Standard and, you know, with so many

:05:30. > :05:31.big issues in our world what

:05:32. > :05:36.good analysis, great news journalism.

:05:37. > :05:41.It's a really important time for good journalism that The

:05:42. > :05:43.Evening Standard is going to provide.

:05:44. > :05:50.There was no let-up yesterday as Gordon Brown launched proposals

:05:51. > :05:55.Under my proposals we keep the Barnett

:05:56. > :05:58.Formula, we keep the fiscal transfers, but we also bring the

:05:59. > :06:03.and fisheries back to the Scottish Parliament.

:06:04. > :06:06.And just think, all this and we're still counting down to the

:06:07. > :06:24.What a week in politics. It has been a torrid week for the government,

:06:25. > :06:28.Isabel Oakeshott, but does Theresa May shake it off, or is this a sign

:06:29. > :06:31.of worse to come? We may all be feeling a bit breathless after the

:06:32. > :06:39.events of last week and we are in for a a long war of attrition with

:06:40. > :06:43.the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon's strategy will be to foster over lengthy

:06:44. > :06:48.periods of time as much resentment and anger as she can in Scotland and

:06:49. > :06:53.try to create the impression that independence is somehow inevitable.

:06:54. > :06:57.Is Scotland the biggest challenge for Theresa May in the next year or

:06:58. > :07:00.so? I think it probably is because if you look at how relatively easily

:07:01. > :07:04.the Brexit bill went through on an issue where people could hardly feel

:07:05. > :07:08.more passionate in the Commons, and actually despite all the potential

:07:09. > :07:12.drama it has gone through quite smoothly. To go back to your

:07:13. > :07:16.original question, she just carries on. Don't underestimate the basic

:07:17. > :07:21.quiet and will towards Theresa May amongst the majority of Tory

:07:22. > :07:25.backbenchers. Yes, there are difficult little issues over school

:07:26. > :07:28.funding, sorry, it's not a little issue, it is a big one but she will

:07:29. > :07:33.get over that and treat each thing as it comes and keep pressing on.

:07:34. > :07:38.Has she not called Nicola Sturgeon's Bluff in that the First Minister

:07:39. > :07:43.said I want a referendum, here is roughly when I wanted, the Prime

:07:44. > :07:47.Minister says you're not having one. What happens next? She has done

:07:48. > :07:52.quite well and impact the progress Theresa May made this week in

:07:53. > :07:55.frustrating Nicola Sturgeon was evident when Nicola Sturgeon said,

:07:56. > :07:58.OK, maybe we can talk about the timing after. Nicola Sturgeon has

:07:59. > :08:02.already been the first one to blink. I would slightly disagree with

:08:03. > :08:06.Isabel Oakeshott, I don't agree Scotland will be the biggest hurdle

:08:07. > :08:11.for her. What this week showed as is Theresa May... It was a reality

:08:12. > :08:15.bites week. Theresa May is juggling four mammoth crises at the same

:08:16. > :08:18.time, Brexit obviously which I still think will be the biggest challenge

:08:19. > :08:24.to get a good deal, Trump left field who popped up at GCHQ on Friday and

:08:25. > :08:30.Scotland and the fiscal challenge, this enormous great problem, and it

:08:31. > :08:36.reinforced the point this is not an easy time in politics. The budget is

:08:37. > :08:39.over four years. That was one small problem, the immediate problem is

:08:40. > :08:43.how to fill the social care crisis and the ageing demographic. This is

:08:44. > :08:46.not normal times in British politics and Theresa May does not have a

:08:47. > :08:50.normal workload on her plate, hence why I think we will see more

:08:51. > :08:56.mistakes made as time goes on and as she has this almost impossible

:08:57. > :08:59.workload to juggle. How tempted do you think the Prime Minister is to

:09:00. > :09:04.call an early election? There is more chatter about it now. Is she

:09:05. > :09:07.tempted and if there is will she succumb? I will answer that in a

:09:08. > :09:11.second as Harold Wilson used to say. I want to agree, disagree with the

:09:12. > :09:15.rest of the panel about how she has out manipulated Nicola Sturgeon this

:09:16. > :09:19.week. I think Nicola Sturgeon expected Theresa May to say no to

:09:20. > :09:24.her expected timetable. It would be amazing if she had said yes. She

:09:25. > :09:28.expected her to say no but Sturgeon catalyst that will fuel support for

:09:29. > :09:33.her cause. There is no sign of that. The latest poll this morning shows

:09:34. > :09:39.66-44 against independence and only 13% think they would be better off

:09:40. > :09:44.with an independent Scotland and a clear majority do not want a second

:09:45. > :09:47.referendum. But the calculation of resistance from Westminster combined

:09:48. > :09:50.with Brexit which hasn't started yet, I think this is her

:09:51. > :09:54.calculation, she didn't expect Theresa May to say, sure, go ahead,

:09:55. > :09:59.I'm sure she expected Theresa May to say no, you can't have it at your

:10:00. > :10:03.desired timetable. On the wider point, I think Theresa May is in a

:10:04. > :10:06.fascinating position, she is both strong because she faces weak

:10:07. > :10:12.opposition and is ahead in the opinion polls. But faces the most

:10:13. > :10:16.daunting agenda of any Prime Minister for 40 or 50 years, I

:10:17. > :10:20.think. So it's a weird combination. I don't think she wants to call an

:10:21. > :10:22.election. I don't think she has thought about how you would

:10:23. > :10:27.manipulate it, what the trigger would be, and whether she's got the

:10:28. > :10:33.energy and space to prepare for and then mount a campaign was beginning

:10:34. > :10:37.the Brexit negotiation. Now, you could see the cause would be the

:10:38. > :10:41.small majorities that will make her life hellish, which it will do.

:10:42. > :10:44.Whether a landslide would help is another question, they can be

:10:45. > :10:49.difficult too. But I think the problems outweigh the advantages of

:10:50. > :10:53.going early. Do you think she would go for an early election? I don't

:10:54. > :10:57.and I think you have to look at the rhetoric coming out of No 10 which

:10:58. > :10:59.is so firm on this question, it is a delicious prospect for us as

:11:00. > :11:03.commentators to think there might be an election around the corner but

:11:04. > :11:08.they are so firm on this I can't see it happening. I agree, we are in

:11:09. > :11:10.unanimous agreement on this one. It is superficially attractive because

:11:11. > :11:14.she would love the big majority and she would get a lot more through

:11:15. > :11:17.Parliament especially with Brexit. The nitty-gritty of it makes an

:11:18. > :11:22.early General Election this year almost impossible. How do you write

:11:23. > :11:27.a manifesto on high Brexit versus soft Brexit, it opens up a Pandora's

:11:28. > :11:31.box of uncertainties. And there is enough with the European elections.

:11:32. > :11:34.The EU will say are we negotiating with you or the person who may

:11:35. > :11:38.replace you? How do you keep the Tory party united going to an

:11:39. > :11:43.election? How do you call one, with a vote of no confidence in yourself

:11:44. > :11:44.you may end up losing. Easy on paper but difficult in practice. We shall

:11:45. > :11:45.see. So if Theresa May did go

:11:46. > :11:48.for an early election this spring, The party's campaigns

:11:49. > :11:59.and elections chief Andrew Gwynne Andrew Gwynne, the government, as we

:12:00. > :12:01.have just been talking about, executed one of the most

:12:02. > :12:05.embarrassing U-turns in recent history this week. It has been a

:12:06. > :12:09.torrid time for the Theresa May government. Why are the Tories still

:12:10. > :12:14.so chipper? The Labour Party has been on an

:12:15. > :12:16.early election footing since before Christmas and we are preparing

:12:17. > :12:20.ourselves for that eventuality in case that does come. That means that

:12:21. > :12:25.we've got to get ourselves into a position whereby we can not only

:12:26. > :12:31.challenge the government but we can also offer a valuable alternative

:12:32. > :12:38.for the British people to choose from should that election arise. So,

:12:39. > :12:41.would you welcome an early General Election? Well, of course, I don't

:12:42. > :12:44.want this government to be in power so of course if there is an

:12:45. > :12:48.opportunity to put a case to the British people as to why there is a

:12:49. > :12:53.better way, and I believe the Labour way is the better way than of course

:12:54. > :12:58.we would want to put that case to the country. So, would Labour vote

:12:59. > :13:02.in the Commons for an early election? Well, of course as an

:13:03. > :13:06.opposition, not wanting to be in opposition, wanting to be in

:13:07. > :13:10.government should the government put forward a measure in accordance with

:13:11. > :13:13.the Fixed-term Parliaments Act then that's something we would very

:13:14. > :13:17.seriously have to consider. I know you would have to consider it but

:13:18. > :13:22.would you vote for an early election or not? Well, of course we want to

:13:23. > :13:25.be the government so if the current government puts forward measures to

:13:26. > :13:28.bring forward a General Election we would want to put our case to the

:13:29. > :13:33.British public and that's one of the jobs that I've been given, together

:13:34. > :13:37.Labour Party organisation early into a position where we can fight a

:13:38. > :13:42.General Election -- organisationally. For the avoidance

:13:43. > :13:46.of doubt, if the Government work to issue a motion in the Commons for an

:13:47. > :13:50.early election, the Labour Party would vote for an early election?

:13:51. > :13:54.It would be very difficult not, Andrew. If the Government wants to

:13:55. > :13:57.dissolve parliament, wants a General Election, we don't want the Tories

:13:58. > :14:01.in government, we want to be in government and we want to have that

:14:02. > :14:04.opportunity to put that case to the British people.

:14:05. > :14:12.Are you ready for an early election? You say you have been on a war all

:14:13. > :14:15.but since the Labour conference last autumn, but are you ready for one?

:14:16. > :14:18.How big is the election fighting fund? We have substantial amounts of

:14:19. > :14:22.money in our fighting fund, that is true, because not only has the

:14:23. > :14:28.Labour Party managed to eliminate its own financial deficit that it

:14:29. > :14:36.inherited from previous election campaigns, we have also managed to

:14:37. > :14:40.build up a substantial fund in the off chance we have an election. We

:14:41. > :14:45.have also expanded massively operations at Labour HQ, we are

:14:46. > :14:48.taking on additional staff, and one of the jobs that myself and Ian

:14:49. > :14:52.Lavery who I job share with are currently doing is to go around the

:14:53. > :14:56.Parliamentary Labour Party to make sure that Labour colleagues have the

:14:57. > :14:59.support and the resources that they need, should they have to face the

:15:00. > :15:04.electorate in their constituencies. So you are on a war footing, ready

:15:05. > :15:08.for the fight, you say you would vote for the fight, so have you got

:15:09. > :15:13.your tax and spend policies ready to roll out? That is something the

:15:14. > :15:17.shadow Treasury team will be discussing. One of the things is, if

:15:18. > :15:20.there is an early General Election, the normal timetable for these

:15:21. > :15:26.things gets fast-track because our policy decision-making body, its

:15:27. > :15:30.annual conference, we have the national policy forum that creates

:15:31. > :15:34.policies suggestions. You have been on a war footing since the last

:15:35. > :15:38.Labour conference, that is what Mr Corbyn told us. So you must have a

:15:39. > :15:43.fair idea of what policies you would fight an early election on. How much

:15:44. > :15:47.extra per year would you spend on the NHS? Well, look, I'm not going

:15:48. > :15:51.to set out the Labour manifesto for an election that hasn't been called.

:15:52. > :15:56.I'm just asking you about the NHS. You must have a policy for that. We

:15:57. > :16:01.have a policy for the NHS. So how much extra? I will not set out

:16:02. > :16:05.Labour's tax-and-spend policies here on The Sunday Politics when there

:16:06. > :16:09.hasn't even been election called. You said you had been on a war

:16:10. > :16:14.footing and you are prepared to vote for one, so if you can't Tommy that,

:16:15. > :16:19.can you tell me what the corporation rate tax on company profits be under

:16:20. > :16:25.a Labour government -- tell me that. You will have to be patient. I have.

:16:26. > :16:29.And wait for Mrs May to trigger an early election. If there is an

:16:30. > :16:33.election on the 4th of May the rich would have to be issued on the 27th

:16:34. > :16:39.of March, so that's not long to wait. If that date passes we aren't

:16:40. > :16:43.having an election on the 4th of May and the normal timetable for policy

:16:44. > :16:47.development will continue. All right. You lost Copeland, I think

:16:48. > :16:51.you were in charge of a by-election for Labour, your national poll

:16:52. > :16:57.ratings are still dire, even after week of terrible times for the

:16:58. > :17:00.Tories. Sometimes you even lose local government by-elections in

:17:01. > :17:05.safe seats, including in the place you are now, in Salford. How long

:17:06. > :17:10.does Mr Corbyn have to turn this around? Well, look, the issue of the

:17:11. > :17:14.Labour leadership was settled last year. The last thing the Labour

:17:15. > :17:17.Party now needs is another period of introspection with the Labour Party

:17:18. > :17:24.merely talks to the Labour Party. We are now on an election footing in

:17:25. > :17:29.case Mrs May does trigger an early General Election. We need to be

:17:30. > :17:33.talking to the British people are not to ourselves. So any speculation

:17:34. > :17:37.about the Labour leadership might excite you in the media but actually

:17:38. > :17:41.for us in the Labour Party it's about re-engaging and reconnecting

:17:42. > :17:45.with the voters. Rather than being excited, I feel quite daunted at the

:17:46. > :17:51.prospect of an early election. So I wouldn't get that right. Normally,

:17:52. > :17:55.given the number of mistakes this government has made, and its

:17:56. > :17:58.mid-term, you would expect any self-respecting opposition to be

:17:59. > :18:04.about ten points ahead. On the latest polls this morning you are 17

:18:05. > :18:09.behind. There is a 27-30 point gap from where you should normally be as

:18:10. > :18:12.an opposition. Are you telling me that if that doesn't change, you

:18:13. > :18:18.still fight the General Election with Mr Corbyn?

:18:19. > :18:25.These are matters for the future. I believe the leadership issue was

:18:26. > :18:29.settled last year. We have had two leadership contest in two years.

:18:30. > :18:34.Would you seriously contemplate going into the next election, if it

:18:35. > :18:39.is early I perfectly understand Jeremy Corbyn is your man, but if it

:18:40. > :18:44.is not until 2020, and you are still 17 points behind in the polls, will

:18:45. > :18:48.you go into the next election like that? There is a lot of future

:18:49. > :18:57.looking and speculation there, I don't know what the future holds,

:18:58. > :19:00.where the Labour Party will be in 12 months let alone by 2020 summit

:19:01. > :19:03.cross those bridges when we come to it. My main challenge is to make

:19:04. > :19:06.sure the Labour Party is in the best possible place organisationally to

:19:07. > :19:09.fight an election, that's my challenge and I'm up for that to

:19:10. > :19:16.make sure we are in the best possible place to make sure Labour

:19:17. > :19:21.returns as many Labour MPs as possible. Thank you for joining us.

:19:22. > :19:24.And we're joined now from the Liberal Democrats' spring

:19:25. > :19:26.conference in York by the former Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg.

:19:27. > :19:34.Good morning. In his conference speech today, Tim Farron lumps

:19:35. > :19:40.Theresa May with Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump. In

:19:41. > :19:48.what way is Mrs May similar to Marine Le Pen? Of course he is not

:19:49. > :19:54.saying Theresa May is identical to Marine Le Pen, I think what Tim

:19:55. > :19:58.Wilby spelling out shortly in his speech is that we need to be aware

:19:59. > :20:04.what's going on in the world, the International settlement that was

:20:05. > :20:11.arrived at after the First World -- Second World War, that bound

:20:12. > :20:15.supranational organisations is under attack from characters as diverse as

:20:16. > :20:20.Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump, and that by side in so

:20:21. > :20:24.ostentatiously with Donald Trump and pursuing this very hard Brexit,

:20:25. > :20:29.Theresa May appears to be giving succour to that much more

:20:30. > :20:33.isolationist chauvinist view of the world than the multilateral approach

:20:34. > :20:38.that Britain has subscribed to for a long time. The exact words he plans

:20:39. > :20:47.to use are welcome to the New World order, Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump,

:20:48. > :20:52.Marine Le Pen, Theresa May, aggressive and teenage to, anti-EU,

:20:53. > :20:56.nationalistic. In what way is Mrs May fitting into any of that? In

:20:57. > :21:03.what way is she similar to Vladimir Putin? I'm not aware she has

:21:04. > :21:08.interfered with other people's elections. The clue is in the quote

:21:09. > :21:13.you just read out, which is the world order. The world order over

:21:14. > :21:17.the last half century or more, by the way a lesson I'm afraid we have

:21:18. > :21:21.to learn in Europe because of the terrible bloodshed of two world was

:21:22. > :21:26.in the space of a few decades, was based on the idea might is not

:21:27. > :21:32.right. Strong arm leaders cannot throw their weight around. What we

:21:33. > :21:38.have now with Putin, the populism across parts of Europe and Donald

:21:39. > :21:44.Trump who thinks the EU will unravel is a shift to a radically different

:21:45. > :21:50.view of the world. Mrs May doesn't think any of that. She is not

:21:51. > :21:55.antenatal, not anti-EU, she says she wants the EU to succeed. She's not

:21:56. > :21:59.aggressive as far as I'm aware so I'm not sure why you would lump the

:22:00. > :22:05.British Prime Minister in with these other characters. Let me explain, by

:22:06. > :22:13.choosing this uncompromising approach to Brexit, clearly in doing

:22:14. > :22:17.so she, in my view, maybe not yours or others, is pursuing a self

:22:18. > :22:21.harming approach to the United Kingdom but also pulling up the

:22:22. > :22:26.threads that bind the rest of the European Union together, in so

:22:27. > :22:31.ostentatiously siding with Donald Trump, somehow declaring in my view

:22:32. > :22:40.speciously that we can make up with the trade we will lose, she's not

:22:41. > :22:44.challenging the shift to a more chauvinist approach to world affairs

:22:45. > :22:49.that is happening in many places. You are at your party's Spring

:22:50. > :22:54.conference, I think we can agree any Lib Dem come back will take a long

:22:55. > :22:59.time. Would Tory dominance be more effectively challenged by a

:23:00. > :23:04.realignment of the centre and the centre-left? Are you working towards

:23:05. > :23:10.that? I missed half the question but I think you are talking about a

:23:11. > :23:15.realignment. As a cook a way to get over Tory dominance, would you want

:23:16. > :23:20.that to happen? Are you working towards that? My view is the

:23:21. > :23:24.recovery of the Lib Dems will be quicker than you suggest. People

:23:25. > :23:29.often forget that even the low point of our fortunes in the last election

:23:30. > :23:33.we still got a million more votes than the SNP, it's only because we

:23:34. > :23:41.have got this crazy electoral system... But the SNP fight in

:23:42. > :23:48.Scotland, you fight in the whole country! But I'm saying the way

:23:49. > :23:57.seats are allocated overlooks the fact that 2.5 million still voted

:23:58. > :24:00.for us. But my own view is of course there are people feeling

:24:01. > :24:04.increasingly homeless in the liberal wing of the Conservative Party

:24:05. > :24:07.because they are now in a party which is in effect indistinguishable

:24:08. > :24:14.from Ukip on some of the biggest issues of the day, and homeless folk

:24:15. > :24:18.on the rational, reasonable wing of the Labour Party. I would invite

:24:19. > :24:23.them to join the Liberal Democrats and I would invite everyone across

:24:24. > :24:27.parties to talk about the idea is that bind us because the Westminster

:24:28. > :24:32.village can invest a lot of energy building new castles in the sky,

:24:33. > :24:35.inventing new names for parties when actually what you want is for people

:24:36. > :24:47.on the progressive centre ground of British politics to talk about the

:24:48. > :24:52.ideas that unite them, from the dilemmas of artificial intelligence

:24:53. > :24:56.to climate change. Do you think in your own view, can Brexit still be

:24:57. > :25:05.thwarted or is it now a matter of getting the best terms? I think we

:25:06. > :25:09.are in an interlude, almost a calm between two storms, the storm of the

:25:10. > :25:13.referendum itself and the collision between the Government's stated

:25:14. > :25:17.ambitions for Brexit and the reality of having to negotiate something

:25:18. > :25:22.unworkable with 27 other governments. The one thing I can

:25:23. > :25:33.guarantee you is that what the Government has promised to the

:25:34. > :25:38.British people cannot happen. Over a slower period of time we will work

:25:39. > :25:42.out our new relationship with the European Union. Theresa May said she

:25:43. > :25:48.will settle divorce arrangements, and pensions, so one, negotiate new

:25:49. > :25:53.trade agreements, new climate change policies and so on, and have all of

:25:54. > :25:57.that ratified within two years, that will not happen so I think there

:25:58. > :26:02.will be a lot of turbulence in the next couple of years. Will you use

:26:03. > :26:09.this turbulence to try to thwart Brexit, to find a way of rolling

:26:10. > :26:13.back the decision? It's not about repeating the debates of the past or

:26:14. > :26:18.thwarting the will of the people but it is comparing what people were

:26:19. > :26:25.promised from the ?350 million for the NHS every week through to this

:26:26. > :26:29.glittering array of new trade agreements we will sign across the

:26:30. > :26:33.world, with the reality that will transpire in the next couple of

:26:34. > :26:36.years and at that point, yes it is my belief people should be able to

:26:37. > :26:41.take a second look at if that is what they really want. A couple of

:26:42. > :26:49.quick questions, would you welcome an early general election? I always

:26:50. > :26:55.welcome them, we couldn't do worse than we did last time. That is

:26:56. > :26:58.certainly true. You have a column in the Evening Standard, have you

:26:59. > :27:05.spoken to the new editor about whether he will keep your column or

:27:06. > :27:12.spike it? No, I wait in nervous anticipation. Can you be a newspaper

:27:13. > :27:19.editor in the morning and an MP in the afternoon? Do I think that's

:27:20. > :27:25.feasible? Sorry, I missed a bit. There is no prohibition, no law

:27:26. > :27:29.against MPs being editors. They have been in the past and no doubt will

:27:30. > :27:36.again in the future. He is taking a lot on, he is an editor, also

:27:37. > :27:40.wanting to be an MP, a jetsetting academic in the States, working in

:27:41. > :27:46.the city, I suspect something will give. It seems to me even by his

:27:47. > :27:52.self-confidence standards in his own abilities I suspect he is taking on

:27:53. > :27:55.a little bit too much. Very diplomatic, Mr Clegg, I'm sure you

:27:56. > :27:59.will get to keep the column. Thanks for joining us.

:28:00. > :28:02.Now, for the last six months England's NHS bosses have been

:28:03. > :28:05.warning the health service needs more money to help it meet

:28:06. > :28:08.But in his first Budget, the Chancellor offered

:28:09. > :28:10.no immediate relief, and today the head of

:28:11. > :28:12.the organisation representing England's NHS trusts says hundreds

:28:13. > :28:15.of thousands of patients will have to wait longer for both emergency

:28:16. > :28:16.care and planned operations, unless the Government

:28:17. > :28:24.Warnings over funding are not exactly new.

:28:25. > :28:27.Back in 2014 the head of the NHS in England, Simon Stevens,

:28:28. > :28:31.published his plan for the future of the health service.

:28:32. > :28:34.In his five-year forward view, Stevens said the NHS in England

:28:35. > :28:37.would face a funding shortfall of up to ?30 billion by 2020.

:28:38. > :28:40.To bridge that gap he said the NHS would need more money

:28:41. > :28:44.from the Government, at least ?8 billion extra,

:28:45. > :28:46.and that the health service could account for the rest by making

:28:47. > :28:54.The Government says it's given the health service more than what it

:28:55. > :28:56.asked for, and that NHS in England will have received

:28:57. > :29:01.That number is disputed by NHS managers and the chair

:29:02. > :29:04.of Parliament's health committee, who say the figure is more

:29:05. > :29:07.like ?4.5 billion, while other parts of the health and social care budget

:29:08. > :29:13.have been cut, putting pressure on the front line.

:29:14. > :29:16.Last year, two thirds of NHS trusts in England finished

:29:17. > :29:18.the year in the red, and despite emergency bailouts

:29:19. > :29:21.from the Government, the NHS is likely to record

:29:22. > :29:26.Meanwhile national targets on waiting times for A

:29:27. > :29:28.departments, diagnostic tests, and operations are being

:29:29. > :29:36.This month's Budget provided ?2 billion for social care

:29:37. > :29:40.but there was no new cash for the NHS, leading trusts to warn

:29:41. > :29:43.that patient care is beginning to suffer, and what is being asked

:29:44. > :29:48.And I'm joined now by the Chief Executive of NHS

:29:49. > :29:54.Providers in England, Chris Hopson.

:29:55. > :30:01.Welcome to the programme. Morning, Andrew. I will come onto the extra

:30:02. > :30:05.money you need to do your job properly in a minute but first, part

:30:06. > :30:09.of the deal was you had to make 22 billion in efficiency savings, not a

:30:10. > :30:14.bank that money but spend it on patient care, the front line, and so

:30:15. > :30:17.on. How is that going? So, last parliament we realised around 18

:30:18. > :30:21.billion of productivity and efficiency savings, we are realising

:30:22. > :30:25.more this year so we are on course to realise 3 billion this year, that

:30:26. > :30:30.is a quarter of a billion more than last year but all of us in the NHS

:30:31. > :30:34.knew the 22 billion would be a very stretching target and we are

:30:35. > :30:41.somewhat inevitably falling short. So it is 22 billion by 2,020.

:30:42. > :30:49.Roughly. That was the time. We are now into 2017. So how much of the 22

:30:50. > :30:54.billion have you achieved? We realised around 3 billion last year

:30:55. > :30:59.and we will realise 3 billion this year, Court of billion more, 3.25

:31:00. > :31:04.billion this year, so we are on course for 18-19,000,000,000. By the

:31:05. > :31:08.2021 period? You are not that far away. The problem is the degree to

:31:09. > :31:13.which demand is going up. We have record demand over the winter period

:31:14. > :31:17.and that actually meant we have seen more people than we have ever seen

:31:18. > :31:23.before but performance is still under real pressure. Let me come

:31:24. > :31:27.onto that. When you agreed on the 22 billion efficiency savings plus some

:31:28. > :31:31.extra money from the government, I know there is a bit of an argument

:31:32. > :31:36.about how much that is actually worth, had you not factored in this

:31:37. > :31:40.extra demand that you saw coming over the next three or four years?

:31:41. > :31:45.Let's be very clear committee referred to Simon Stevens's forward

:31:46. > :31:49.view and we signed up to it but the 22 billion was a process run at the

:31:50. > :31:52.centre of government by the Department of Health with its arms

:31:53. > :31:56.length bodies, NHS England and others and is not something that was

:31:57. > :32:00.consulted on with the NHS. But you signed up to it. We always said that

:32:01. > :32:05.the day that that Spending Review was announced, the idea that the NHS

:32:06. > :32:09.where customer demand goes up something like four or 5% every

:32:10. > :32:13.year, the idea that in the middle years of Parliament we would be able

:32:14. > :32:19.to provide the same level of service when we were only getting funding

:32:20. > :32:23.increases of 1.3%, 0.4% and 0.7%, and I can show you the press release

:32:24. > :32:28.we issued, we always said there was going to be a gap and that we would

:32:29. > :32:34.not be able to deliver what was required. The full 22 billion in

:32:35. > :32:37.other words? What we said to Simon Stevens at the Public Accounts

:32:38. > :32:42.Committee a few months ago, the NHS didn't get what it was asked for.

:32:43. > :32:49.Today the NHS, cope with the resources it has according to you.

:32:50. > :32:52.How much more does it need? Are reported is about 2017-18 and we

:32:53. > :32:56.estimate that what we are being asked to do, and again, Andrew, you

:32:57. > :33:02.clearly set it out in the package, we are a long way off the four-hour

:33:03. > :33:06.A target and a long way off the 92%. The waiting times and

:33:07. > :33:11.operations. How much more do you need? And we are making up a ?900

:33:12. > :33:15.million deficit. If you take all of those into account we estimate you

:33:16. > :33:19.would need an extra ?3.5 billion next year in order to deliver all of

:33:20. > :33:23.those targets and eliminate the deficit. That would be 3.5 billion

:33:24. > :33:28.on top of what is already planned next year and that would be 3.5

:33:29. > :33:31.billion repeated in the years to come too? Yes, Andrew it is

:33:32. > :33:37.important we should make an important distinction about the NHS

:33:38. > :33:40.versus other public services. When the last government, the last Labour

:33:41. > :33:44.government put extra money into the NHS it clearly said that in return

:33:45. > :33:49.for that it would establish some standards in the NHS Constitution,

:33:50. > :33:53.the 95% A target we have talked about and the 92% elective surgery

:33:54. > :33:57.we have talked about. The trust we represent are very clear, they would

:33:58. > :34:01.want to realise those standards, but you can only do it if you pay for

:34:02. > :34:06.it. The problem is at the moment is we are in the longest and deepest

:34:07. > :34:10.financial squeeze in NHS history. As we have said, funding is only going

:34:11. > :34:15.up by 1% per year but every year just to stand still cost and demand

:34:16. > :34:20.go up by more than 4%. There is clearly a demand for more money. I

:34:21. > :34:23.think people watching this programme will think probably the NHS is going

:34:24. > :34:28.to have to get more money to meet the goals you have been given. I

:34:29. > :34:32.think they would also like to be sure that your Mac running the NHS

:34:33. > :34:36.as efficiently as it could be. We read this morning that trusts have

:34:37. > :34:41.got ?100 million of empty properties that cost 10 million to maintain, 36

:34:42. > :34:46.office blocks are not being used, you have surplus land equivalent to

:34:47. > :34:51.1800 football pitches. Yes, there are a number of things that we know

:34:52. > :34:56.in the NHS we need to do better but let me remind you, Andrew, in the

:34:57. > :34:59.last Parliament we realised ?18 billion worth of cost improvement

:35:00. > :35:07.gains. We are going to realise another 3 billion this year, 0.25

:35:08. > :35:10.billion more than last year so these things are being targeted. But

:35:11. > :35:13.having that surplus land, it is almost certainly in areas where

:35:14. > :35:19.there is a demand for housing. Absolutely. So why not release it

:35:20. > :35:23.for housing? You get the money, the people get their houses and its

:35:24. > :35:27.contribution and a signal that you are running NHS assets as

:35:28. > :35:32.efficiently as you can? Tell me if I'm going to too much detail for

:35:33. > :35:36.you. One of the reasons as to why our trusts are reluctant to realise

:35:37. > :35:40.those land sales is because there is an assumption that the money would

:35:41. > :35:44.go back to the Treasury and wouldn't benefit NHS trusts. You could make a

:35:45. > :35:47.deal, couldn't you? That's part of the conversation going on at the

:35:48. > :35:52.moment. The issue is that we would want to ensure that if we do release

:35:53. > :36:04.land, quite rightly the benefit, particularly in foundation trusts

:36:05. > :36:06.which are, as you will remember, deliberately autonomous

:36:07. > :36:08.organisations, that they should keep the benefit of those land sales.

:36:09. > :36:08.Have you raised that with the government?

:36:09. > :36:21.Yes we have. What did they say? They are in discussions of it. We heard

:36:22. > :36:26.somebody who moved from one job and then to another job and given a big

:36:27. > :36:30.salary and then almost ?200,000 as a payoff. There is a national mood for

:36:31. > :36:33.the NHS to get more money. But before you give anybody any more

:36:34. > :36:37.money you want to be sure that the money you have got already is being

:36:38. > :36:42.properly spent, which for us, is the patient at the end of the day. And

:36:43. > :36:50.yet there seem to be these enormous salaries and payoffs. I've worked in

:36:51. > :36:52.a FTSE 100 on the board of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs and I

:36:53. > :36:55.have worked in large organisations. I can look you completely straight

:36:56. > :36:58.in the eye and tell you that the jobs that our hospital, community,

:36:59. > :37:01.mental health and ambulance chief Executives do are amongst the most

:37:02. > :37:06.complicated leadership roles I have ever seen. It doesn't seem to me to

:37:07. > :37:09.be unreasonable that in order to get the right quality of people we

:37:10. > :37:13.should pay an appropriate salary. The reality is the salaries are paid

:37:14. > :37:18.are not excessive when talking about managing budgets of over ?1 billion

:37:19. > :37:26.a year and talking about managing tens of thousands of staff. There

:37:27. > :37:29.was a doctor working as a locum that earned an extra ?375,000. One of the

:37:30. > :37:33.problems in the NHS is a mismatch between the number of staff we need

:37:34. > :37:36.and the number of staff coming through the pipeline. What is having

:37:37. > :37:41.to happen is if you want to keep a service going you have to use Mackem

:37:42. > :37:43.and agency staff. Even at that cost? You would not want to pay those

:37:44. > :37:49.amounts. But you are. The chief You would not want to pay those

:37:50. > :37:52.Executives's choice in those areas is giving the service open or

:37:53. > :37:57.employing a locum. I'm sure you could find a locum prepared to work

:37:58. > :38:03.for less than that. What indication, what hopes do you have of getting

:38:04. > :38:08.the extra ?3 billion? The government has been very clear, for the moment

:38:09. > :38:12.it wants to stick to the existing funding settlement it has agreed. So

:38:13. > :38:17.there was nothing in the budget. Can I finish by making one important

:38:18. > :38:21.point. Please, finish. This is the first time the NHS has said before

:38:22. > :38:26.the year has even started that we can't deliver on those standards. We

:38:27. > :38:31.believe, as do most people who work in the NHS, that the NHS is on a

:38:32. > :38:35.gradual slow decline. This is a very important inflection point to Mark,

:38:36. > :38:37.this is the first time before the financial year starts that we say we

:38:38. > :38:43.cannot meet the targets we are being asked to deliver and are in the NHS

:38:44. > :38:44.Constitution. We have run out of time. Chris Hopson, thank you for

:38:45. > :38:45.being with me. It's just gone 11:35am,

:38:46. > :38:47.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:38:48. > :38:58.in Scotland who leave us now Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics

:38:59. > :39:00.in Northern Ireland. The talks deadline

:39:01. > :39:02.is fast approaching. I'll be speaking to Alliance

:39:03. > :39:05.and the SDLP about the chances of getting Stormont up

:39:06. > :39:08.and running again. We'll hear from Washington,

:39:09. > :39:11.where a senior congressman is calling for an American presence

:39:12. > :39:22.at the current talks. A very positive influence over the

:39:23. > :39:24.years in the presence in the north to help keep people at the table.

:39:25. > :39:26.And I'm joined by commentators David Gordon and Fionnuala O Connor,

:39:27. > :39:33.with their views on another busy week on both sides of the Atlantic.

:39:34. > :39:36.So we're two-thirds of the way through the talks process designed

:39:37. > :39:38.to set up a new government in Northern Ireland.

:39:39. > :39:40.But are we two-thirds of the way to a deal?

:39:41. > :39:43.The noises from the British and Irish governments remain

:39:44. > :39:45.positive, though in the end it will be the local parties who sign

:39:46. > :39:50.I'm joined by the SDLP's Nichola Mallon and Stephen Farry

:39:51. > :39:54.We did invite the DUP, Sinn Fein and the Ulster Unionists to join us,

:39:55. > :40:09.Nichola Mallon, how optimistic are you that a deal can be done in the

:40:10. > :40:14.time frame we are looking at? We are hopeful and we are committed,

:40:15. > :40:19.playing our part. We believe we need to see an executive up and running

:40:20. > :40:23.and has genuine power-sharing and that is delivering for people and a

:40:24. > :40:27.rising to the challenges of Brexit and other critical issues. We are

:40:28. > :40:33.hopeful, but if we are honest, the past two weeks have been no more

:40:34. > :40:37.than shadow-boxing. We have been disappointed and frustrated that

:40:38. > :40:41.hasn't been in all round table call for all the parties and we are

:40:42. > :40:45.hopeful to see that tomorrow or as early as possible. Do you expect

:40:46. > :40:48.things to wrap up this week? We have a very real deadline of next Monday

:40:49. > :40:59.in terms of when the Assembly will convene. I am not necessarily

:41:00. > :41:03.hopeful because there are major issues in terms of the approach the

:41:04. > :41:06.parties are taking, but I am certain this can be done in the course of

:41:07. > :41:10.the week. We have been in even more difficult spots where things have

:41:11. > :41:15.moved over a shorter time frame than this in the past. Those issues have

:41:16. > :41:18.been around for some time and has been talked about a the parties.

:41:19. > :41:22.It's time for those parties to make a serious commitment to getting the

:41:23. > :41:26.institutions up and running properly and function on behalf of the common

:41:27. > :41:30.good of Northern Ireland. Some people might say it is a positive

:41:31. > :41:33.point, perhaps, that the DUP and Sinn Fein don't want to make public

:41:34. > :41:37.comment. They would rather see what they have to say behind closed

:41:38. > :41:46.doors. Do you read anything into the fact we have chosen not to be here

:41:47. > :41:48.this morning? No one is expecting them to come on here and reveal

:41:49. > :41:51.their hands in terms of the negotiating process but it's

:41:52. > :41:53.important there is a mechanism of informing the public. The public

:41:54. > :41:57.sent a clear message to all of us on polling day and they want to see as

:41:58. > :42:03.responding to it. It would have been helpful but it is their call to be

:42:04. > :42:06.here are not. Both of your parties and the Ulster Unionist Party are

:42:07. > :42:10.sitting on the sidelines watching the main action, which will be

:42:11. > :42:15.between presumably the Secretary of State and Sinn Fein and the DUP. AM

:42:16. > :42:23.on behalf of the SDLP because we have nothing to hide. We are keen,

:42:24. > :42:27.we have a smaller mandate pension vein and the DUP. They got us to

:42:28. > :42:32.this point, that is where the problem lies. That Israeli

:42:33. > :42:36.resolution lies, but the SDLP would be found wanting in trying to

:42:37. > :42:42.contribute to finding a lasting solution. The Alliance party is

:42:43. > :42:47.expected to as well. It is difficult to form the Government without the

:42:48. > :42:52.DUP Sinn Fein, but when you go into Government alone we don't get

:42:53. > :42:56.delivery or result, we get collapse. If you go back to fresh start, that

:42:57. > :42:59.was a false dawn. It was dominated by the two largest parties and

:43:00. > :43:03.governments. The other three parties have a lot to bring to the table. We

:43:04. > :43:11.have a lot of votes across Northern Ireland. That was a mistake on part

:43:12. > :43:14.of the Alliance party not to join the last executive when you are

:43:15. > :43:19.invited to take on the justice Ministry, a mistake he would meet

:43:20. > :43:23.again this time? Our actions are vindicated. All parties should

:43:24. > :43:28.aspire to be in Government, we idea to try and deliver our values. We

:43:29. > :43:33.turned it down, but we turned it down because we don't feel that in

:43:34. > :43:35.terms of how the executive are going to operate we don't have the

:43:36. > :43:43.confidence we are going to have a fresh start. Frankly, we could not

:43:44. > :43:48.have stayed in that executive. We saw abuse of the social investment

:43:49. > :43:51.fund. You said you couldn't go into it last time round because you

:43:52. > :43:55.couldn't give it your support. What happens if the same kind of deal you

:43:56. > :44:01.don't like, but you think will fall apart without you being in there? In

:44:02. > :44:06.terms of our current strength, we don't qualify. We haven't been

:44:07. > :44:11.invited. We're not getting too far ahead of ourselves. We have been

:44:12. > :44:15.clear, we have got the same conditions we set out last May.

:44:16. > :44:23.We're going to have to reinforce some of those. We asked for a proper

:44:24. > :44:32.strategy around paramilitaries. That has to have the clear. That has to

:44:33. > :44:36.be fixed. Stephen Farry makes the point that the Alliance party would

:44:37. > :44:39.be depended upon an invitation to join the executive but you could be

:44:40. > :44:44.there in the SDLP as of right, would you take that seat as of right this

:44:45. > :44:49.time round? We are very clear going into the selection that parties

:44:50. > :44:51.fight to be in Government. The SDLP has never shunted responsibilities

:44:52. > :44:56.when it comes to Government. We didn't take the decision lightly to

:44:57. > :45:00.not go in last time. Sadly the reasons for us leaving have come to

:45:01. > :45:03.pass and other parties are now up in arms about it. If we get fundamental

:45:04. > :45:08.reform of the executive in terms of how it does business, a shift in the

:45:09. > :45:13.relationships they are, programme Government that deliver, and agreed

:45:14. > :45:17.plan to deal with Brexit and issues like that, we would be found

:45:18. > :45:21.wanting. We wouldn't be going into Government just for the sake of

:45:22. > :45:24.going in and neither will be stay in opposition because we are

:45:25. > :45:28.politically point-scoring. Do you see any evidence that those issues

:45:29. > :45:34.are being addressed during the process so far and two to reach a

:45:35. > :45:38.positive outcome in eight days's time? We have had multiple meetings

:45:39. > :45:41.with each of the parties touching on these issues. We are taking people

:45:42. > :45:46.at face value, this is not about the SDLP getting its wish list, it is

:45:47. > :45:50.about getting the critical movement on issues that matter to people.

:45:51. > :45:57.Well we are all procrastinating, we have seen start-ups having to go to

:45:58. > :46:02.the wall. We need to stop playing politics, get the right deal and

:46:03. > :46:06.I'll get round the table. Things have to fundamentally change. What

:46:07. > :46:10.about issues like, for example, Brexit. We will talk about legacy

:46:11. > :46:14.any moment. Is there any sign of the joint approach on dealing with

:46:15. > :46:17.Brexit? Those two parties have very different world views after we are

:46:18. > :46:21.and where we need to be. There are some common ground between the

:46:22. > :46:27.parties going back to statement from the First Minister last August in

:46:28. > :46:32.terms of the Prime Minister, there was a recognition of some issues.

:46:33. > :46:38.There is a lot of uncommon ground. That is the much bigger problem.

:46:39. > :46:42.Unless we have an executive in place, we can't get a special deal

:46:43. > :46:46.for Northern Ireland. We have to have a recognition first of all for

:46:47. > :46:51.the local parties special deal and find a stronger common ground.

:46:52. > :46:55.Northern Ireland is a very particular and unique place. There

:46:56. > :47:00.is a major threat to the Good Friday Agreement for Brexit and it is all

:47:01. > :47:03.about putting in place barriers. The Good Friday Agreement is about

:47:04. > :47:07.people having a common ground. Unless they have the recognition

:47:08. > :47:12.from a UK perspective, we are seeing it in Scotland no, it could further

:47:13. > :47:16.destabilise this place. Particularly on Brexit, it's not just local

:47:17. > :47:19.parties, we need a UK Government particularly over the next week to

:47:20. > :47:23.come out with a clear statement, much more than they have done so far

:47:24. > :47:29.and recognise the real challenge being close to Northern Ireland.

:47:30. > :47:32.What chance to be deal on legacy? It is certainly one of the difficult

:47:33. > :47:35.issues and despite Stormont house which was announced with great

:47:36. > :47:41.fanfare, little to no movement has been made. The victim had been led

:47:42. > :47:45.up the garden path so many times and let down. Unless we do get to grips

:47:46. > :47:49.with the past, unless we recognise that no one has a monopoly on pain

:47:50. > :47:52.and suffering, and the victims deserve treatment from that, we're

:47:53. > :47:59.never going to move this please forward. Just a final thought, we

:48:00. > :48:04.had comments from the Taoiseach Enda Kenny in Washington he had a reached

:48:05. > :48:08.agreement with Theresa May that there would be no return to direct

:48:09. > :48:14.rule from London if the negotiations failed. Did that make sense to you?

:48:15. > :48:19.It make sense in that we have an abstract real deadline of Monday

:48:20. > :48:24.27th, after that point we are going into another election, which is

:48:25. > :48:28.fairly pointless, or any situation where the Government has to

:48:29. > :48:32.negotiate in some shape or form for some direct rule are taking an

:48:33. > :48:36.election of the table. Let's focus on getting a deal done over the next

:48:37. > :48:40.week and making sure it's a good deal that will be sustainable and we

:48:41. > :48:44.can stop the stop start politics destroying Northern Ireland. Do you

:48:45. > :48:49.think Enda Kenny oversold that? There is no mood among the public

:48:50. > :48:53.for an election. To rerun an election just because you didn't

:48:54. > :48:57.like the result, because you want to see more dominant Unionist or more

:48:58. > :49:01.Republican, it is completely wrong. ?5 million was spent on the last

:49:02. > :49:02.election, the public has sent us a message, it's time to get down to

:49:03. > :49:03.business and get the job done. Thank you both.

:49:04. > :49:05.Let's hear from my guests of the day, Fionnuala O

:49:06. > :49:15.Connor and David Gordon. What did you make of that? Does that

:49:16. > :49:20.make you more optimistic that some agreement can be reached in eight

:49:21. > :49:25.days are less so? It doesn't either. Both of those two are very able

:49:26. > :49:28.politicians, the presented the party positions off a well incidental to

:49:29. > :49:32.giving the view on what is happening, but they have been honest

:49:33. > :49:36.enough to see the don't really know and Stephen Farry says it could be

:49:37. > :49:40.done inside a week and Enda Nichola Mallon says has been a round table

:49:41. > :49:46.yet. Clearly the icing the don't know. Didn't exactly say that, they

:49:47. > :49:50.don't know what's happening between Sinn Fein, the DUP the Government

:49:51. > :49:54.but when it comes to the wider picture of what the Government's

:49:55. > :49:58.position is, which is the most interesting, we see more of their

:49:59. > :50:04.hand than we do of Sinn Fein and the DGP's and Enda Kenny's drastic

:50:05. > :50:08.overselling of what he was quickly slammed down by a Theresa May

:50:09. > :50:11.spokesman as having said there was an agreement, there would be no

:50:12. > :50:16.direct rule, is an indication the arrow at sixes and sevens. They've

:50:17. > :50:20.both got problems with their own at the moment. Until recently you were

:50:21. > :50:24.inside the executive tent. You have got a good understanding of what the

:50:25. > :50:28.thinking might be on the part of the DUP Sinn Fein on these matters.

:50:29. > :50:34.Would you regard yourself as optimistic that this issue can be

:50:35. > :50:39.resolved or are we heading into the great unknown? We're heading into

:50:40. > :50:43.the great unknown. We've got a sense of the scale of the challenge facing

:50:44. > :50:48.the talks and when Stephen Farry talks about the business going often

:50:49. > :50:51.different agreements on top processes, that has been part of the

:50:52. > :50:55.problem. Things have been kicked down the road in number of times and

:50:56. > :51:00.not sorted out. This time, this is the last chance to sort it out.

:51:01. > :51:06.Legacy is the big issue, not as for the politicians, it is for both

:51:07. > :51:12.committees. There is a lot to do any week leave got themselves into

:51:13. > :51:16.corners, Sinn Fein and the DGP, on issues like Arlene Foster being able

:51:17. > :51:20.to continue as First Minister. That is an interesting want to get into

:51:21. > :51:25.it before the talks process has begun. It is almost academic any

:51:26. > :51:28.sense we don't have an executive, it doesn't matter. Who is going to be

:51:29. > :51:33.First Minister, Deputy First Minister? How do you regard that

:51:34. > :51:37.situation? It did look like the DGP was trying not to paint a red light

:51:38. > :51:43.and then Jeffrey Donaldson earlier in the week was speaking to Stephen

:51:44. > :51:45.Nolan and suggested that was a red line and if Sinn Fein continued to

:51:46. > :51:51.insist she couldn't be First Minister than they would -- there

:51:52. > :51:54.would be to devolution? Jeffrey Donaldson, I will always remember

:51:55. > :51:57.for his walk-out at the very last minute when any agreement was about

:51:58. > :52:02.to be signed when David Trimble didn't know he was going. Jeffrey's

:52:03. > :52:08.position in talks is somewhat an exotic one. The other one is that

:52:09. > :52:12.for Sinn Fein to say that at the outset was an indication of what

:52:13. > :52:16.they were there for. The work they are, it kicked into action by the

:52:17. > :52:19.people, who didn't like it one bit what had been going on for a very

:52:20. > :52:20.long time, not just the last month so.

:52:21. > :52:23.Now with a look at the political week in 60 seconds,

:52:24. > :52:40.At Stormont, MLAs signed in, but their leaders still haven't sat

:52:41. > :52:45.together around the talks table. We make progress but it's very

:52:46. > :52:49.difficult to know how we can make overall progress if we are not

:52:50. > :52:54.sitting down around the table and the world is moving on around us.

:52:55. > :52:58.After meeting President Trump pressing Patrick's Day, the

:52:59. > :53:01.Taoiseach claimed there would be no return to direct rule. Have a clear

:53:02. > :53:04.agreement with the British Government that there will be no

:53:05. > :53:08.return to a hard border and there will be no direct rule brought back

:53:09. > :53:14.from London. The outgoing Ulster Unionist Party denies denied his

:53:15. > :53:21.election performance was down to him. That served as a lightning rod

:53:22. > :53:25.that incredibly energised nationalists and republicans. Sinn

:53:26. > :53:29.Fein MEP Martina Anderson not so politely told the Prime Minister

:53:30. > :53:34.will she could pick the border. Theresa May, your notion of a

:53:35. > :53:39.border, hard or soft, stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

:53:40. > :53:43.George Mitchell, Richard Haass, Mitchel Reiss - some big American

:53:44. > :53:45.names who have played significant roles in the Northern

:53:46. > :53:50.And now one US congressman wants to see another

:53:51. > :53:53.Joe Crowley was speaking to our correspondent,

:53:54. > :53:56.Shane Harrison, in Washington and they also discussed the ongoing

:53:57. > :54:00.But the Democrat started by stressing the positive impact

:54:01. > :54:10.the USA can have in Northern Ireland.

:54:11. > :54:20.The special convoy goes back to President Clinton's days and prior

:54:21. > :54:24.to that I was in the legislator and saw it come to fruition as one of

:54:25. > :54:28.the promises made when he was running for president. We have seen

:54:29. > :54:32.the positive affect the US President's negotiations in the

:54:33. > :54:37.north of Ireland between the north and south and the British Government

:54:38. > :54:41.have been a very positive influence over the years on the presence in

:54:42. > :54:47.the north to help keep people at the table. Gary Hart being the last and

:54:48. > :54:56.most recent, but George Mitchell and very high-profile Americans. Richard

:54:57. > :55:02.Howes -- Haas has been there as well. They have meant so much to the

:55:03. > :55:05.process of peace and reconciliation in Northern Ireland. I think it's

:55:06. > :55:11.important, especially now, given what seems to be a bit of an

:55:12. > :55:16.election that has taken place that really hasn't demonstrated much

:55:17. > :55:18.results in terms of what pretends that the future, whether there would

:55:19. > :55:24.be able to put together a Government and if not how long, if it goes back

:55:25. > :55:30.to Westminster, how long will be the before an election is called before

:55:31. > :55:34.they go back, we'll Arlene Foster stay, will she not? What is the

:55:35. > :55:39.presence of Michelle O'Neill have no in terms of Northern Irish politics

:55:40. > :55:42.moving forward? These are all interesting new questions. The

:55:43. > :55:48.Brexit issue, a hard border or a soft order, it is also something

:55:49. > :55:51.that people are asking questions about. We have had the Assembly

:55:52. > :55:56.election results. How important do you think it is that devolution be

:55:57. > :56:00.restored to Northern Ireland? I think it needs to be brought to bear

:56:01. > :56:05.to bring some resolutions to this. How that all pans out in the

:56:06. > :56:09.politics of the north is yet to be seen, we don't know. There has been

:56:10. > :56:20.a great deal of damage done to the DUP rant because of the campaign. In

:56:21. > :56:27.terms of people's confidence, it has been diminished, demonstrated by the

:56:28. > :56:31.polling results that took place. Really trying to find that balance

:56:32. > :56:36.of restoring the Government is critical for the continuance of the

:56:37. > :56:40.process. All of this is happening with Brexit as a backdrop and we are

:56:41. > :56:44.ready to pay ministers say they don't want to return to the hard

:56:45. > :56:49.borders of the past. How worried are you about the implications of Brexit

:56:50. > :56:52.for Northern Ireland? I would hope there are some type of accommodation

:56:53. > :56:59.that can be reached because I do believe that free access, free flow

:57:00. > :57:04.of goods, has had a positive impact on the development of Ireland as a

:57:05. > :57:08.whole, as well as the furtherance of peace in the north. It has not been

:57:09. > :57:12.perfect and or those who have yet to feel the benefits benefits of that

:57:13. > :57:18.peace process, many of whom are still struggling out of the culture

:57:19. > :57:23.of Ireland that has existed for a very long period of time. We now see

:57:24. > :57:28.a new generation of people from the Irish republicans, from the north of

:57:29. > :57:32.Ireland, who have lived in peace for a considerable amount of time now, a

:57:33. > :57:35.lengthy piece, and I think that is something that we can all look to in

:57:36. > :57:42.terms of pride and that we've all contributed to that but also as an

:57:43. > :57:46.anchor for a hopeful movement forward in this Brexit. What I also

:57:47. > :57:51.think is of interest is the movement in Scotland now possibly for another

:57:52. > :57:57.vote on devolution, independence for Scotland, what effect that will

:57:58. > :57:59.have. Knowing that Scotland and Northern Ireland voted in the

:58:00. > :58:03.majority to remain within the European Union. Do you think it hard

:58:04. > :58:11.border could threaten the peace process? Do the size of Ireland

:58:12. > :58:16.believe that all parts of Ireland, all provinces, every county is a

:58:17. > :58:21.part in all of traditional islands, I think that in the border counties

:58:22. > :58:26.that could create even more tension and stress. Economically when there

:58:27. > :58:32.are two separate economy is taking place that had an impact on terms of

:58:33. > :58:36.the disgruntled nature that had taken place. Aside from the

:58:37. > :58:41.nationalists issues coming into play, there are economic issues that

:58:42. > :58:53.come into play as well. We have seen a growth in the peace process. My

:58:54. > :58:58.hope is that we can come to some kind of agreement to prevent a hard

:58:59. > :59:03.border. My mother is from ten to Amat, I'm very familiar with the

:59:04. > :59:06.checkpoints and the soldiers, that added stress that added to the

:59:07. > :59:07.overall community. I would go back to that.

:59:08. > :59:09.Democratic congressman Joe Crowley emphasising his Irish credentials

:59:10. > :59:14.there, and listening to that Fionnula O Connor and David Gordon.

:59:15. > :59:22.Is that just another US politician auditioning for a job can we really

:59:23. > :59:27.expect a significant American presence in the talks over the next

:59:28. > :59:30.weeks and months? He could be auditioning, he sounds a reasonable

:59:31. > :59:35.man, he doesn't sound like a sure water. Which would be a good thing.

:59:36. > :59:39.Can we expect one? Perhaps it is very definitely quite high on the

:59:40. > :59:44.Nationalist agenda that James Brokenshire is not a legitimate

:59:45. > :59:48.chairman of talks. West Theresa May making it clear, re-emphasising, she

:59:49. > :59:52.is not treating the Irish Government as an equal partner which I think

:59:53. > :59:55.she is doing and playing down their role in the settlement. It's another

:59:56. > :00:00.reason for wanting somebody from outside. As to whether he would be a

:00:01. > :00:05.significant chair, that something else, we are past that stage. It is

:00:06. > :00:10.arguable the previous jurors were not that significant. Ian Paisley

:00:11. > :00:14.was in Washington and he was talking up the Trump interest in Northern

:00:15. > :00:18.Ireland, the significance of it, the way in which Trump and his people

:00:19. > :00:22.have a handle on what's happening here and there is a possibility that

:00:23. > :00:27.Northern Ireland could be on the agenda if he does indeed visit the

:00:28. > :00:30.UK. Do you buy all of that? Seanad Eireann Edward Lucie that. The whole

:00:31. > :00:41.point of Trump is America first, putting America first. Ian Paisley

:00:42. > :00:46.and back a long way. There is a fellow feeling there. The brutal

:00:47. > :00:55.truth is that we are pretty much on our own. To think that America is

:00:56. > :01:01.going to help us... If there's going to be a deal, it's going to be

:01:02. > :01:04.between the parties. Doesn't help anybody that Trump is apparently

:01:05. > :01:09.making a state visit to the UK and now he's been invited and accepted

:01:10. > :01:12.an invitation from Enda Kenny to visit the Republic? All know, of

:01:13. > :01:16.course it doesn't. He is such a lightweight in every other week in

:01:17. > :01:25.his position that you couldn't have any fees at all in what he might say

:01:26. > :01:29.or do when he's here. The two governments, the Irish and the

:01:30. > :01:34.British Government at the most worrying and missing link at the

:01:35. > :01:39.moment. If they were exerting pressure on Sinn Fein and the DUP

:01:40. > :01:45.that would be something else. For different reasons, they are not. It

:01:46. > :01:50.is the vacuum. When I said no previous cheers, I meant no previous

:01:51. > :01:52.envoys, had an effect. George Mitchell had a huge effect.

:01:53. > :01:52.That's it from us. Now back to Andrew in London.

:01:53. > :01:54.That's it from us. you both. Say goodbye. Goodbye. Back

:01:55. > :02:01.to you. So, can George Osborne stay

:02:02. > :02:03.on as a member of Parliament Will Conservative backbenchers force

:02:04. > :02:08.a Government re-think And is Theresa May about to cap gas

:02:09. > :02:21.and electricity prices? Whose idea was that first of all?

:02:22. > :02:27.They are all questions for the Week Ahead to.

:02:28. > :02:32.Let's start with the story that is too much fun to miss, on Friday it

:02:33. > :02:35.was announced the former Chancellor would be the new editor of London's

:02:36. > :02:42.Evening Standard newspaper, a position he will take up in mid-May

:02:43. > :02:47.on a salary of ?200,000 for four days a week.

:02:48. > :02:50.But Mr Osborne has said he will not be stepping down as MP

:02:51. > :02:52.for Tatton in Cheshire, a job he's held since 2001,

:02:53. > :02:56.Alongside these duties, he's also chairman of

:02:57. > :03:02.While being committed to one day a week at Black Rock,

:03:03. > :03:04.an American asset management firm - a part-time role that earns him

:03:05. > :03:10.Then he's polishing his academic credentials, as a fellow

:03:11. > :03:12.at the McCain Institute, an American thinktank,

:03:13. > :03:19.And finally as a member of the Washington Speaker's Bureau,

:03:20. > :03:25.he also earns his keep as an after-dinner speaker, banking

:03:26. > :03:30.around ?750,000 since last summer.

:03:31. > :03:39.So there you go. Nice little earners if you can get them. The problem,

:03:40. > :03:43.though, is he has put second jobs on the agenda and lots of his fellow

:03:44. > :03:48.MPs are not happy because they have got second jobs but not making that

:03:49. > :03:53.kind of money. No, and a lot of MPs on both sides actually are unhappy

:03:54. > :03:57.about it exactly for those reasons. I find it a very interesting

:03:58. > :04:02.appointment. We have got these people on the centre and centre

:04:03. > :04:06.right of politics who have been used to power since 1997, they have been

:04:07. > :04:11.on the airwaves today, Tony Blair, Nick Clegg, George Osborne, and they

:04:12. > :04:15.are all seeking other platforms now because power has moved elsewhere.

:04:16. > :04:18.So Tony Blair is setting up this new foundation, Nick Clegg refused to

:04:19. > :04:25.condemn George Osborne, Tony Blair praised the appointment. They are

:04:26. > :04:29.all searching for new platforms. They might have overestimated the

:04:30. > :04:34.degree to which this will be a huge influential platform. The standard

:04:35. > :04:39.was very pro-Tory at the 2015 election but London voted Labour, it

:04:40. > :04:43.was pro-Zac Goldsmith but they elected Sadiq Khan. It might be

:04:44. > :04:48.overestimating the degree to which this is a hugely influential paper.

:04:49. > :04:53.But I can see why it attracts him as a platform when all these platforms

:04:54. > :04:59.have disappeared, eg power and government. All of these people who

:05:00. > :05:03.used to be in power are quietly getting together again, Mr Blair on

:05:04. > :05:07.television this morning, George Osborne not only filling his bank

:05:08. > :05:12.account but now in charge of London's most important newspaper,

:05:13. > :05:17.Nick Clegg out today not saying Brexit was a done deal, waiting to

:05:18. > :05:22.see what happens, even John Major was wheeled out again today in the

:05:23. > :05:25.Mail on Sunday. They are all playing for position. I half expect David

:05:26. > :05:33.Cameron to turn up as features editor on The Evening Standard.

:05:34. > :05:37.Brexit and breakfast! With Mr Clegg, did he not? I do not think this is

:05:38. > :05:40.sustainable for George Osborne, I worked at The Evening Standard and I

:05:41. > :05:44.was there for three years, I know what the hours are like for a humble

:05:45. > :05:49.journalist, never mind the editor. If he thinks he can get at 4am

:05:50. > :05:53.everyday to be in the offices at 5am to oversee the splash, manage

:05:54. > :05:57.everything in the way and edited should he is in cloud cuckoo land.

:05:58. > :06:02.What this says to people is there is a kind of feel of soft corruption

:06:03. > :06:06.about public life here, where you see what you can get away with. He

:06:07. > :06:09.thinks he can brazen this out and maybe he can but what kind of

:06:10. > :06:14.message does that send to people about how seriously people take the

:06:15. > :06:19.role of being an MP? He must have known. He applied for the job. The

:06:20. > :06:24.Russian owner didn't approach him, he approached Lebedev, the

:06:25. > :06:28.proprietor, for it. He must have calculated there would be some

:06:29. > :06:32.kickback. I wonder if he realised there would be quite the kickback

:06:33. > :06:36.there has been. I think that's probably right. This hasn't finished

:06:37. > :06:41.yet, by the way, this will go on and on. How on earth does George Osborne

:06:42. > :06:46.cover the budget in the autumn? Big budget, lots of physical changes and

:06:47. > :06:50.tax rises to deal with the messages out of this week. You can see

:06:51. > :06:57.already, Theresa May budget crashes. It could be worse. She's useless!

:06:58. > :07:03.Or, worse than that, me, brilliant budget, terrible newspaper, I've

:07:04. > :07:06.never buying it again. He has hoisted his own petard. He has not

:07:07. > :07:12.bought it properly through. It's a something interesting about his own

:07:13. > :07:16.future calculations, if he wants to stay on as an MP in 2020 and be

:07:17. > :07:20.Prime Minister as he has or was wanted to be he has got to find a

:07:21. > :07:24.new seat. How do you go into an association and say I should be an

:07:25. > :07:28.MP, I can do it for at least four hours Purdy after editing The

:07:29. > :07:35.Evening Standard, making a big speech and telling Black Rock how to

:07:36. > :07:39.make a big profit. The feature pages have to be approved for the next day

:07:40. > :07:43.and feature pages are aware the editor gets to make their mark. The

:07:44. > :07:48.news is the news. The feature is what concerns you, what he is in

:07:49. > :07:54.your bonnet. That defines the newspaper, doesn't it? It is not

:07:55. > :08:01.over yet. Too much 101 on newspapers. And Haatheq at.

:08:02. > :08:08.School funding, the consultation period ends, it has been a tricky

:08:09. > :08:13.one for the government, some areas losing. I guess we are seeing this

:08:14. > :08:18.through the prism of the National Insurance contributions now, it is a

:08:19. > :08:23.small majority, if Tory MPs are unhappy she may not get her way.

:08:24. > :08:28.Talking to backbench MPs who are unhappy the feeling is it is not

:08:29. > :08:33.going to go ahead in the proposed form that the consultation has been

:08:34. > :08:37.on. No 10 will definitely have to move on this. It is unclear whether

:08:38. > :08:41.they will scrap it completely, or will they bring in something

:08:42. > :08:46.possibly like a base level, floor level pupil funding below which you

:08:47. > :08:50.can't go? You would then still need to find some extra money. So there

:08:51. > :08:54.are no easy solutions on this but what is clear it is not going to go

:08:55. > :08:58.ahead in its current form. Parents have been getting letters across the

:08:59. > :09:03.country in England about what this will mean for teachers and so on in

:09:04. > :09:08.certain schools. It's not just a matter of the education Department,

:09:09. > :09:12.the schools, or the teachers and Tory backbenchers. Parents are being

:09:13. > :09:16.mobilised on this. The point of the new funding formula is to allocate

:09:17. > :09:20.more money to the more disadvantaged. That means schools in

:09:21. > :09:24.the more prosperous suburbs are going to lose money. Budget cuts on

:09:25. > :09:27.schools which are already struggling. It comes down again to

:09:28. > :09:33.be huge problem, the ever smaller fiscal pool, ever greater demands,

:09:34. > :09:37.NHS, social care, education as well, adding to Theresa May and Phillip

:09:38. > :09:41.Hammond's enormous problems. Here is an interesting issue, Steve. There

:09:42. > :09:47.was a labour Leader of the Opposition that once suggested

:09:48. > :09:51.perhaps given these huge energy companies which seemed to be good at

:09:52. > :09:54.passing on energy rises but not so good at cutting energy prices when

:09:55. > :09:58.it falls, that perhaps we should put a cap on them until at least we

:09:59. > :10:04.study how the market goes. This was obviously ludicrous Marxism and

:10:05. > :10:09.quite rightly knocked down by the Conservatives, except that Mrs May

:10:10. > :10:12.is now talking about putting a cap on energy prices. Yes, I think if it

:10:13. > :10:17.wasn't for Brexit we would focus much more on Theresa May's Ed

:10:18. > :10:21.Miliband streak. Whether this translates into policies, let us

:10:22. > :10:25.see. That bit we don't know. That bit we don't know but in terms of

:10:26. > :10:29.argument her speech to the Conservative conference on Friday

:10:30. > :10:34.was about the third or fourth time where she said as part of the

:10:35. > :10:37.speech, let's focus on the good that government can do, including in

:10:38. > :10:43.intervening in markets, exactly in the way that he used to argue. As

:10:44. > :10:46.you say, we await the policy consequences of that. She seems more

:10:47. > :10:51.cautious in terms of policy in fermentation. But in terms of the

:10:52. > :10:54.industrial strategy, in terms of implying intervention in certain

:10:55. > :10:59.markets, there is a kind of Milibandesque streak. And there

:11:00. > :11:05.comes a time when she has to walk the walk as well as talk the talk.

:11:06. > :11:09.They talk a lot about the just about managing, just about managing face

:11:10. > :11:13.rising food bills because of the lower pound and face rising fuel

:11:14. > :11:20.bills because of the rise in oil and in other commodities. One of the two

:11:21. > :11:23.things you could do to help the just about managing is to cut their food

:11:24. > :11:27.bills and the second would be to cut their fuel bills. At some stage she

:11:28. > :11:30.has to do something for them. We don't know what is going to happen

:11:31. > :11:34.to food bills under Brexit, that could become a really serious issue.

:11:35. > :11:38.They could abolish tariffs. There has been a lot of talking the talk

:11:39. > :11:42.and big announcements put out and not following through so I agree

:11:43. > :11:55.with you on that but lots of Tory MPs will have a big problem on

:11:56. > :11:58.this and the principle of continually talking about

:11:59. > :12:01.interfering in markets, whether it's on executive pay, whether it is on

:12:02. > :12:04.energy, at a time when Britain needs to send out this message to the

:12:05. > :12:06.world in their view, in the view of Brexit supporting MPs, that we are

:12:07. > :12:09.open for business and the government is not about poking around and doing

:12:10. > :12:12.this kind of thing. Of course, you could argue there is not a problem

:12:13. > :12:14.in the market for energy, it is a malfunctioning market that doesn't

:12:15. > :12:17.operate like a free market should, so that provides even Adam Smith,

:12:18. > :12:21.the inventor of market economics would have said on that basis you

:12:22. > :12:25.should intervene. I was in Cardiff to listen to Theresa May's latest

:12:26. > :12:30.explanation for doing this. By the way, we've been waiting nine months,

:12:31. > :12:33.this was one of her big ideas. You are right, let's see a bit of the

:12:34. > :12:37.meat, please. My newspaper has been calling for some pretty hefty

:12:38. > :12:43.government action on this for quite some time. For the just about

:12:44. > :12:47.managings? Yes and specifically to sort out an energy market dominated

:12:48. > :12:48.by the big six, which is manifestly ripping people off left, right and

:12:49. > :12:51.centre. Theresa May's argument ripping people off left, right and

:12:52. > :12:55.centre. Theresa May's argument in Cardiff on Friday morning which, by

:12:56. > :13:00.the way, went down like a proverbial windbreak at the proverbial funeral

:13:01. > :13:03.because Tories... You know what I mean Andrew, the big hand coming

:13:04. > :13:07.into from the state telling businesses what to do. They went

:13:08. > :13:11.very quiet indeed. They were having saving the union and Nato but there

:13:12. > :13:16.was no clapping for that. The point being, this is what she needs to do

:13:17. > :13:21.to prove her assault, to prove those first words on the steps of Downing

:13:22. > :13:23.Street. We await to see the actions taken.

:13:24. > :13:31.On that unusual agreement we will leave it there. The Daily Politics

:13:32. > :13:33.will be back on BBC Two tomorrow at noon and everyday during the week.

:13:34. > :13:36.And I'll be here on BBC One next Sunday at 11am.

:13:37. > :13:38.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.