19/11/2017

Download Subtitles

Transcript

0:00:35 > 0:00:37Morning everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:37 > 0:00:38I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:38 > 0:00:41And this is your guide to all the big stories that

0:00:41 > 0:00:45are shaping politics this weekend, and a few of the smaller ones too.

0:00:45 > 0:00:48Philip Hammond is getting ready to deliver his latest Budget

0:00:48 > 0:00:50on Wednesday and he's not short of advice - to spend more,

0:00:50 > 0:00:53show restraint, even to stop being an Eyore -

0:00:53 > 0:00:58but can he change the direction of the country and his government?

0:00:58 > 0:01:00Conservative Party darling Jacob Rees-Mogg has

0:01:00 > 0:01:02some advice of his own.

0:01:02 > 0:01:04He thinks the Chancellor is being far too gloomy about Brexit

0:01:04 > 0:01:08- he joins me live to explain why.

0:01:08 > 0:01:12The former Leave campaign leader, Gisela Stuart, will be here debating

0:01:12 > 0:01:15with pro-EU campaigner Alastair Campbell, after taking

0:01:15 > 0:01:17a trip to her native Germany to speak to businesses

0:01:17 > 0:01:21about Brexit.

0:01:21 > 0:01:24And, as we wait to find out what's on the menu for this week's budget,

0:01:24 > 0:01:26we're in a diner off the A1 in Peterborough,

0:01:26 > 0:01:29finding out who people most trust with the economy -

0:01:29 > 0:01:30Philip Hammond or John McDonnell?

0:01:31 > 0:01:33And coming up here:

0:01:33 > 0:01:35As Gerry Adams signals his intention to stand down

0:01:35 > 0:01:37as Sinn Fein President, I'll be talking live

0:01:37 > 0:01:40to Michelle O'Neill about his legacy and who she thinks

0:01:40 > 0:01:42should succeed him. Join me in half an hour.

0:01:48 > 0:01:50All that coming up in the programme.

0:01:50 > 0:01:53And with me for for all of it, three journalists who've promised

0:01:53 > 0:01:56not to show off like Michael Gove by using any long economicky words -

0:01:56 > 0:01:59although I'm not sure they really know that many anyway -

0:01:59 > 0:02:02it's Tom Newton Dunn, Gaby Hinsliff and Iain Martin.

0:02:02 > 0:02:05Let's take a look at the big political stories making the news

0:02:05 > 0:02:07this Sunday morning, and as you might expect there's

0:02:07 > 0:02:10plenty of speculation about what might or not might be

0:02:10 > 0:02:12in Philip Hammond's Budget.

0:02:12 > 0:02:15The Chancellor is promising a big investment in new technology,

0:02:15 > 0:02:18including driverless cars - which could be on the road by 2021.

0:02:18 > 0:02:22He's been interviewed in the Sunday Times,

0:02:22 > 0:02:24where he talks about plans to reach the target of building

0:02:24 > 0:02:28300,000 homes every year, or the equivalent of a city

0:02:28 > 0:02:29the size of Leeds.

0:02:29 > 0:02:32That paper speculates that he's attempting to turn from "fiscal

0:02:32 > 0:02:35Phil" into "hopeful Hammond" as he tries to set out

0:02:35 > 0:02:38a vision for the country, not just a list of numbers.

0:02:38 > 0:02:40The Sunday Telegraph thinks that Mr Hammond is planning to offer

0:02:40 > 0:02:44a pay rise to nurses as part of a bid to take on Labour.

0:02:44 > 0:02:47But that hasn't impressed Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.

0:02:47 > 0:02:50He's spoken to a number of papers and is calling for an emergency

0:02:50 > 0:02:52budget to invest in public services and help struggling households.

0:02:52 > 0:02:56So that's a taste of what you might hear on Wednesday and Mr Hammond

0:02:56 > 0:02:58and Mr McDonnell have both been appearing this morning

0:02:58 > 0:03:02on the Andrew Marr Show.

0:03:02 > 0:03:05I think Britain has a very bright future ahead of it,

0:03:05 > 0:03:07and we have to embrace the opportunities that

0:03:07 > 0:03:09a post-Brexit world will offer.

0:03:09 > 0:03:12They will be opportunities that are based on huge change,

0:03:12 > 0:03:15huge technological evolution.

0:03:15 > 0:03:18It's not always going to be easy, but the British people have shown

0:03:18 > 0:03:20time and time again that we're up for these challenges.

0:03:20 > 0:03:24For many people out there, this is a depression.

0:03:24 > 0:03:28We've had people whose wages have been cut by 10%.

0:03:28 > 0:03:29Nurses, for example.

0:03:29 > 0:03:32We've had people who are now...

0:03:32 > 0:03:371.25 million food parcels handed out in the sixth richest

0:03:37 > 0:03:38country in the world.

0:03:38 > 0:03:46That's what I call a recession for large numbers of people.

0:03:46 > 0:03:51We will be talking about Labour and their economic policies in a moment,

0:03:51 > 0:03:55but let's start with what we might expect from the budget. We will talk

0:03:55 > 0:04:00to our panel of political observers. Philip Hammond is under pressure to

0:04:00 > 0:04:04set out a bold vision and reset the government's programme. Can we

0:04:04 > 0:04:10expect that?No, we can't. We have heard enough from the Chancellor

0:04:10 > 0:04:14across various broadcast and his article in the Sunday Times. I think

0:04:14 > 0:04:23we will not be getting a bold budget. His precise words short... A

0:04:23 > 0:04:25short time ago were a balanced budget. Some Tory hearts will think.

0:04:25 > 0:04:30They desperately want something to go out and shout about, something to

0:04:30 > 0:04:35capture people's imagination, and do big and bold things, like how on

0:04:35 > 0:04:40earth are they going to build those new 300,000 houses a year? There are

0:04:40 > 0:04:48good reasons why he has chosen what appears to be a pretty staid,

0:04:48 > 0:04:52Conservative budget, and that is that they are probably unable to get

0:04:52 > 0:04:55anything bold through Parliament. His capital is so low among Tory

0:04:55 > 0:05:04MPs. If you have a minority government, it is tricky.We have

0:05:04 > 0:05:07seen ministers on programmes like this in the last few weeks putting

0:05:07 > 0:05:13in the bids for what they would like spending on, whether it be payment

0:05:13 > 0:05:17for nurses or parliament. Would he struggled to get something radical

0:05:17 > 0:05:22through the Commons?Big ideas cost money. That's the problem. Bold

0:05:22 > 0:05:28ideas are controversial. In some ways, Tory MPs are asking their

0:05:28 > 0:05:32Chancellor to do the impossible. Government is already doing

0:05:32 > 0:05:37something big and bold, which is Brexit. That has implications for

0:05:37 > 0:05:41how much money is available, how many risks you want to take with

0:05:41 > 0:05:46everything else. What is crucial is that he demonstrates a reputation

0:05:46 > 0:05:52for competence. The reputation that the Conservative government has for

0:05:52 > 0:05:56economic competence, that many people prefer them to Labour on the

0:05:56 > 0:06:00issue of economic competence. The worst thing he could do is come up

0:06:00 > 0:06:05with a big, bold idea that unravelled quickly. What they

0:06:05 > 0:06:10absolutely don't want is to come up with an exciting idea that falls

0:06:10 > 0:06:14apart three days after the budget. He is under pressure from

0:06:14 > 0:06:18Brexiteers, who are suspicious of him. Does he have to offer them

0:06:18 > 0:06:23something?Part of his problem is he has to offer so many different

0:06:23 > 0:06:26people different things. This is Philip Hammond trying to be and

0:06:26 > 0:06:34dynamic.It is hard to tell sometimes.At least in theoretical

0:06:34 > 0:06:43terms. His longer-term difficulty is that, if you look at the economic

0:06:43 > 0:06:49cycle, we are getting to a point where we are probably overdue, if

0:06:49 > 0:06:54you put Brexit to one side, overdue some kind of correction or downturn,

0:06:54 > 0:06:59if you look what has happened to asset prices globally. What will be

0:06:59 > 0:07:04worrying for the Treasury is, just as everyone is saying we should turn

0:07:04 > 0:07:10on the taps and build this or that, we might be at the top of a cycle,

0:07:10 > 0:07:15and the Treasury will want to lose something in the armoury in terms of

0:07:15 > 0:07:18probably growing the deficit if there are economic difficulties in

0:07:18 > 0:07:23the next two years, and then there is Brexit as well.It sounds

0:07:23 > 0:07:28impossible.I think so. Talking to his friends and colleagues over the

0:07:28 > 0:07:33last few days, he had to make a call, which was precisely how much

0:07:33 > 0:07:39can I get away with, with my political capital being as low as it

0:07:39 > 0:07:46is, with the mixed problems he had at the last budget, and a lot of the

0:07:46 > 0:07:50party disliking his approach to Brexit. He is damned if he is,

0:07:50 > 0:08:00damned if he doesn't. Universal Credit, we are expecting a reduction

0:08:00 > 0:08:07in the time it takes to wait, business rates, affected by high

0:08:07 > 0:08:11inflation... I think we will see a problem fixing budget which will

0:08:11 > 0:08:17probably do quite a lot of important spadework in many areas.We will

0:08:17 > 0:08:21pick up on some of this later in the programme.

0:08:21 > 0:08:24Let's speak now to the Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, this week

0:08:24 > 0:08:26he helpfully launched an alternative "budget for Brexit" and advised

0:08:26 > 0:08:29the Chancellor to be less gloomy about the consequences

0:08:29 > 0:08:33of leaving the EU.

0:08:33 > 0:08:37Thank you for joining us. Your alternative budget is pretty

0:08:37 > 0:08:46radical. Almost half corporation tax, Cap Stamp duty to help the

0:08:46 > 0:08:50London market. It seems you are advocating the opposite from what we

0:08:50 > 0:08:55will hear from your Chancellor on Wednesday.There are two parts to

0:08:55 > 0:08:59the proposals I suggested. One is that we should show that after we

0:08:59 > 0:09:04have left the European Union, the UK is open to the rest of the world. It

0:09:04 > 0:09:08is about opening up to the rest of the world. Secondly, looking at the

0:09:08 > 0:09:14modelling that has been done by the Treasury and some other forecasters,

0:09:14 > 0:09:18which has been so comprehensively wrong. The forecasts made about what

0:09:18 > 0:09:25would happen after Brexit have turned out to be hopelessly false.

0:09:25 > 0:09:31The team at Cardiff University have done some modelling based on the

0:09:31 > 0:09:34classical economic principles and what happens if you move to free

0:09:34 > 0:09:39trade that would be very positive for the economy.You are predicting

0:09:39 > 0:09:47a Brexit dividend of £135 billion, which sounds fantastic. Why are you

0:09:47 > 0:09:51right, and everybody else, including the Bank of England and the

0:09:51 > 0:09:54Institute for Fiscal Studies, why are they all wrong?It depends on

0:09:54 > 0:10:00the type of modelling. The modelling that have been done by the Treasury

0:10:00 > 0:10:04have been based on gravity models, which work on the basis of the

0:10:04 > 0:10:08nearness of the market and the size of the economy you are trading with.

0:10:08 > 0:10:13These have been wrong in the past. They predicted that if we joined the

0:10:13 > 0:10:20euro, trade would grow by 300%. That was then revised down to 200%, but

0:10:20 > 0:10:26it is fantasyland. The model I am working on, by Sir Patrick Minford,

0:10:26 > 0:10:34who has a record of getting these things right. He was right about the

0:10:34 > 0:10:39exchange rate mechanism, right about the euro.Being right in the past

0:10:39 > 0:10:44doesn't mean you are right about the future. Why do you think the

0:10:44 > 0:10:48Treasury will not pick up the same numbers, if this is so obvious to

0:10:48 > 0:10:53you?I think the Treasury was humiliated by the errors in its

0:10:53 > 0:10:59forecast prior to Brexit, and is trying to defend its position. The

0:10:59 > 0:11:02short-term economic consequences of a vote to leave was one of the most

0:11:02 > 0:11:08dishonest documents to come out of the Treasury, purely a piece of

0:11:08 > 0:11:11political propaganda. They are wounded by that and sticking to the

0:11:11 > 0:11:16same script, rather than looking at other forecasts and other experts.

0:11:16 > 0:11:19You think the governor of the Bank of England is an enemy of Brexit,

0:11:19 > 0:11:24and it sounds like you think the Treasury is opposed to it. As the

0:11:24 > 0:11:29Chancellor fallen under their spell as well, and been persuaded to be an

0:11:29 > 0:11:35enemy of Brexit?I have admiration the Chancellor, but George Osborne,

0:11:35 > 0:11:40his predecessor, was the architect of Project Fear. He was too close to

0:11:40 > 0:11:44the Bank of England and lost his independence. That is what needs to

0:11:44 > 0:11:51change. It is an opportunity in the budget for Philip Hammond to show he

0:11:51 > 0:11:55is putting aside the Treasury's mistakes in the past. It is very

0:11:55 > 0:12:01encouraging what he is saying this morning, about a more positive

0:12:01 > 0:12:06approach to Brexit.Lord Lawson has accused Philip Hammond of being very

0:12:06 > 0:12:12close to sabotage on Brexit. He says we need a can-do man at the Treasury

0:12:12 > 0:12:17and not a prophet of doom.I think that Philip Hammond is an

0:12:17 > 0:12:20exceptionally intelligent man, a very thoughtful man. It is not a bad

0:12:20 > 0:12:26thing to have a Chancellor who is serious minded and steady, rather

0:12:26 > 0:12:32than one who is a showman and uses the Exchequer to interfere in

0:12:32 > 0:12:37absolutely everything.I have a lot of confidence in the Chancellor.

0:12:37 > 0:12:41When you launched your budget for Brexit, you said the government has

0:12:41 > 0:12:48to deliver the £350 million for the NHS that was delivered during the

0:12:48 > 0:12:51referendum, even though you didn't think that promise should have been

0:12:51 > 0:12:56made. Is that something they now need to deliver wrong?It is. This

0:12:56 > 0:13:01only happens once we have left. Politicians have to recognise that

0:13:01 > 0:13:08voters don't look at the small print of electoral policies. If you put

0:13:08 > 0:13:14£350 million on the side of a bus and say it may be available for the

0:13:14 > 0:13:19NHS, it is reasonable for people to think that is a promise. Brexit was

0:13:19 > 0:13:25won by the Leave campaign, so it it is important that they deliver on

0:13:25 > 0:13:30that promise. Politicians must keep faith with voters and deliver on

0:13:30 > 0:13:34implied promises, as well as ones that are set out in detail.The

0:13:34 > 0:13:39Cabinet will move on to talk about the Brexit bill this week, and we

0:13:39 > 0:13:43understand they may need to come up with more money to satisfy EU

0:13:43 > 0:13:47demands. The more money spent on that is less money available for

0:13:47 > 0:13:53things like spending on the NHS. Are you worried about the size of the

0:13:53 > 0:13:59exit bill?You have your finger on the important point. The government

0:13:59 > 0:14:03will have to choose whether to give lots of money to the European Union,

0:14:03 > 0:14:08or whether to spend money on UK public services, and that will be

0:14:08 > 0:14:12part of the negotiation. On all these issues, it comes down to

0:14:12 > 0:14:18choice is the government makes. I would encourage the government to

0:14:18 > 0:14:21choose our own domestic public services rather than expensive

0:14:21 > 0:14:26schemes in continent or Europe.Why are you advocating that the

0:14:26 > 0:14:35government should spend up to £2.5 billion on a no deal scenario?

0:14:35 > 0:14:40It is important that we are ready to leave in the event of no deal. If we

0:14:40 > 0:14:46left with no deal we would on current figures still be saving the

0:14:46 > 0:14:52remains of 18 billion so we would be saving 15 and a half billion against

0:14:52 > 0:14:57paying for the financial framework. To show we're ready on day one would

0:14:57 > 0:15:05be money well spent and most would be needed any way. We need to have

0:15:05 > 0:15:09new customs arrangements in place even if it is not for a no deal

0:15:09 > 0:15:12situation.There are suggestions that the Government might back down

0:15:12 > 0:15:16on the idea of putting the time and date of leaving the EU on the face

0:15:16 > 0:15:20of the bill. Would you be Exxon certained if that was -- concerned

0:15:20 > 0:15:28if that was remove prd the bill?It is in Article 50, unless Article 50

0:15:28 > 0:15:38is extended by the Council of Europe we leave on 20th March 2019 and it

0:15:38 > 0:15:43makes accepts that should be the same in -- sense that should be in

0:15:43 > 0:15:46same in domestic law. But that is a secondary concern from my point of

0:15:46 > 0:15:51view. It is important that we leave on that date.Stay there if you

0:15:51 > 0:15:52would.

0:15:52 > 0:15:55We're joined in the studio by the former minister

0:15:55 > 0:15:56Stephen Hammond.

0:15:56 > 0:15:58He's no relation to the Chancellor, but he is a member

0:15:58 > 0:16:02of the Treasury Select Committee and he's one of the Tory MPs named

0:16:02 > 0:16:03as "Brexit mutineers" by the Daily Telegraph

0:16:03 > 0:16:06this week - lucky him.

0:16:06 > 0:16:11I'm assured you're no relation to the Chancellor. Let's just pick up

0:16:11 > 0:16:19on what Jacob Rees Mogg was saying. How important is it to you as a

0:16:19 > 0:16:25rebel that the Government does put the date on.I agree with Jacob it

0:16:25 > 0:16:30is in the Article 50 process, the key reason it is important is the

0:16:30 > 0:16:34negotiations look like they're going to be tricky and longer than we

0:16:34 > 0:16:41expected and it may well be that we are still negotiating up until March

0:16:41 > 0:16:462019. We could have a short couple of weeks period of extension. Why do

0:16:46 > 0:16:51harm to the economy by falling out on a precise time? If those

0:16:51 > 0:16:55negotiations need to be extended. They won't go on for more than a

0:16:55 > 0:16:59couple of weeks, because there will be elections in Europe in June 2019

0:16:59 > 0:17:03and there is no chance of a new commission or Parliament dealing

0:17:03 > 0:17:10with this. Giving it flexibility and with this flexibility the government

0:17:10 > 0:17:13said it wants flexibility in negotiations, why give all the

0:17:13 > 0:17:20advantage to the other side? Part of that was evidenced yesterday by

0:17:20 > 0:17:23somebody suggesting they will ask for the Margaret Thatcher rebate to

0:17:23 > 0:17:28be suspended. That is as a result of putting the date on the bill.You

0:17:28 > 0:17:31did not agree with the Brexit committee and think it is important

0:17:31 > 0:17:36that we set the date and time?I think it is perfectly reasonable to

0:17:36 > 0:17:41set the date and time and I think these negotiations fill the time

0:17:41 > 0:17:46available. The United States and Australia agreed a free trade deal

0:17:46 > 0:17:52between April 2003 and February 2004. These things don't need to be

0:17:52 > 0:17:56interm Knabl if both sides want to agree. I think the British

0:17:56 > 0:18:01electorate would be very concerned if nearly three years after the vote

0:18:01 > 0:18:04to leave, we still hadn't left. I think most people expected that we

0:18:04 > 0:18:09would have left by now. The negotiations realistically to get

0:18:09 > 0:18:13through the approval of the European Parliament and so on need to be

0:18:13 > 0:18:17completed by at the end of next year, going up to the last minute I

0:18:17 > 0:18:22don't think is real is tick.To move on to talk about a trade deal and

0:18:22 > 0:18:28getting that done, the EU need to agree to move on and we need to

0:18:28 > 0:18:31settle the divorce, cabinet are going to be talking about the amount

0:18:31 > 0:18:38that needs to be spent on that, Stephen what manned, are you happy

0:18:38 > 0:18:42for the Government to offer more?I hope that the Government will stick

0:18:42 > 0:18:47to the Florence speech in terms of ensuring that we fulfil our

0:18:47 > 0:18:52liabilities and obligations. I'm not clear exactly whether that is 20

0:18:52 > 0:18:55billion or 40 billion and I'm not sure the government is. If part of

0:18:55 > 0:19:00the divorce bill is then some settlement for getting the trade

0:19:00 > 0:19:06deal, we will need to examine that carefully.Jacob Rees Mogg, is this

0:19:06 > 0:19:11that might spark another war in the party if the cabinet suggest they're

0:19:11 > 0:19:17prepared to pay more?I think we need to go back to what you said,

0:19:17 > 0:19:27that the - the EU said they want us to settle the money first. The

0:19:27 > 0:19:30Government doesn't need to follow that. They need our money. If we

0:19:30 > 0:19:38don't pay any money for the final 21 months of the framework, the EU has

0:19:38 > 0:19:44about 20 billion pounds gap in its finances and it has no legal

0:19:44 > 0:19:48requirement to borrow. So it insolvents or the Germans and the

0:19:48 > 0:19:52others pay more. So our position on money is very strong and we

0:19:52 > 0:19:57shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking just because Mr Barnier

0:19:57 > 0:20:02said it it is as if he has received tablets of stone like Moses, he has

0:20:02 > 0:20:10not.There is a sense that the Government feels a mo generous offer

0:20:10 > 0:20:15would set a good tone, the kind of approach that Jacob Rees Mogg

0:20:15 > 0:20:20suggests would not make for smooth relations.It probably wouldn't. But

0:20:20 > 0:20:25we have to be clear what we are paying for and what we are getting.

0:20:25 > 0:20:30No one is suggesting we should hand over money without proper scrutiny.

0:20:30 > 0:20:36It may be appropriate to put money to facilitate international trade to

0:20:36 > 0:20:40secure jobs. We have to be careful about the analysis about what the

0:20:40 > 0:20:46scale and size of Brexit dividend is and the size of payments will be.

0:20:46 > 0:20:52You mustn't confuse gross and net and there is disagreement about some

0:20:52 > 0:20:58of the numbers.On that, Jacob Rees Mogg in his budget for Brexit

0:20:58 > 0:21:04suggests in five years time we would have a 135 billion Brexit bonus. Do

0:21:04 > 0:21:11you think it is real is tick.He is using some analysis that has some

0:21:11 > 0:21:18flaws. It is predicting a price drop in the United Kingdom of 10%. Tariff

0:21:18 > 0:21:24drops will only be 3 or 4%. It is predicting huge productivity gains,

0:21:24 > 0:21:29the likes of which we have not seen in 20 years. Thirdly, despite his

0:21:29 > 0:21:35view on modellers there is evidence that they weren't and if you go into

0:21:35 > 0:21:42the detail of the analysis, some of the data is 14 years out of date.

0:21:42 > 0:21:47Jacob Rees Mogg, you're being hopelessly optimistic?I don't think

0:21:47 > 0:21:52that right. I think the fall in prices comes because you make the

0:21:52 > 0:21:56economy more competitive and you take away tariffs which reduces the

0:21:56 > 0:22:02price of food by 20%. That is a big reduction. Bear in mind that the

0:22:02 > 0:22:06biggest tariffs hit food, clothing and foot wear that, harm the poorest

0:22:06 > 0:22:13in society the most. The gains from productivity come from is in

0:22:13 > 0:22:21additional tariffs. Leading to other saving and further investment I

0:22:21 > 0:22:25think the modelling done by the professor is as good as modelling

0:22:25 > 0:22:31can be. That doesn't mean it is infallible. The failure of gravity

0:22:31 > 0:22:38model is well known.Michael Gove was accused of auditioning for the

0:22:38 > 0:22:45job of Chancellor by using long words. Do you know any good long

0:22:45 > 0:22:49economic words?I don't think that we want to get into this type of

0:22:49 > 0:22:53business actually. I think all Conservatives and Steven and I very

0:22:53 > 0:22:58much agree on this, want to show as united a front as we can manage.

0:22:58 > 0:23:02There are differences on some aspects of policy, but in terms of

0:23:02 > 0:23:05individuals we want to stand together and support the best

0:23:05 > 0:23:11interests of the government.Thank you.

0:23:11 > 0:23:13Brexit Secretary David Davis was in Berlin this week trying

0:23:13 > 0:23:15to win the support of business leaders there for a comprehensive

0:23:15 > 0:23:17free trade deal with the EU.

0:23:17 > 0:23:20He warned them against putting 'politics above prosperity'

0:23:20 > 0:23:25and reportedly got a bit of a frosty reception.

0:23:25 > 0:23:27Well, the former Labour MP Gisela Stuart was one of the leaders

0:23:27 > 0:23:29of the Vote Leave referendum campaign.

0:23:29 > 0:23:32We travelled with Gisela to Germany to meet the business leaders

0:23:32 > 0:23:35she says will help secure a good trade deal for the UK.

0:23:35 > 0:23:38Here's her film.

0:23:45 > 0:23:48I was born and brought up in this part of Germany,

0:23:48 > 0:23:51and although I've lived in the UK for the past 40 years,

0:23:51 > 0:23:55and represented the constituency of Birmingham and Edgbaston for 20

0:23:55 > 0:24:00years, my family still live here, and I've kept many links.

0:24:03 > 0:24:06I was chair of Vote Leave, and together with only a handful

0:24:06 > 0:24:08of other Labour MPs, we campaigned to leave

0:24:08 > 0:24:11the European Union because we thought the country would be

0:24:11 > 0:24:13better off outside.

0:24:13 > 0:24:16It's hard to remember now, but back in the 1970s, when we joined

0:24:16 > 0:24:20the European Economic Community, people thought that by joining

0:24:20 > 0:24:24the club we would see the kind of economic miracle Germany

0:24:24 > 0:24:27experienced in the '70s back home.

0:24:27 > 0:24:29The "Deutsche Wirtschaftswunder" would come to Britain.

0:24:29 > 0:24:34But, of course, it didn't.

0:24:36 > 0:24:39Within a few short years of the devastation of World War II,

0:24:39 > 0:24:42Germany had emerged as the largest economy in Europe.

0:24:42 > 0:24:43Germany's extraordinary success is down to

0:24:43 > 0:24:48the pragmatism of its business.

0:24:48 > 0:24:53German Mittelstand is family dominated, forward-thinking,

0:24:53 > 0:24:59long-term thinking, reliability, are very important values.

0:24:59 > 0:25:01Changing moods on a political landscape and changing frameworks

0:25:01 > 0:25:04are toxic for our way of doing business, and we want

0:25:04 > 0:25:11that to go away.

0:25:11 > 0:25:16German business is not given to making big political statements

0:25:16 > 0:25:19out of step with government policy, but talk to those in decision-making

0:25:19 > 0:25:22positions, and it is clear that they want to secure a good deal

0:25:22 > 0:25:25with the United Kingdom.

0:25:25 > 0:25:28BMW employs almost 90,000 people here in Germany,

0:25:28 > 0:25:32and exports just under 1 million cars annually.

0:25:32 > 0:25:37The UK is a vital market.

0:25:37 > 0:25:41What we are really seeking right now is more clarity, more certainty,

0:25:41 > 0:25:45because in our cycle of investment, cycle of development,

0:25:45 > 0:25:50it's about a seven-year or so period that we look at,

0:25:50 > 0:25:53but we are now, of course, starting to think about what comes next,

0:25:53 > 0:25:57and what we need to see now is what is going to be

0:25:57 > 0:26:00the trading relationship, how are the logistics going to look,

0:26:00 > 0:26:02what is going to be the requirements for people

0:26:02 > 0:26:04moving across the continent?

0:26:04 > 0:26:07Because all of these things are important to us today.

0:26:07 > 0:26:10And, by the way, they will be just as important tomorrow.

0:26:10 > 0:26:13Berlin is well aware that if the European Commission

0:26:13 > 0:26:17is allowed to put up trade barriers against Britain, it will be

0:26:17 > 0:26:19German business, German consumers and German employees

0:26:19 > 0:26:23who will suffer.

0:26:23 > 0:26:25TRANSLATION:I think it's very important that we complete

0:26:25 > 0:26:27the first phase successfully.

0:26:27 > 0:26:31The first phase of the negotiations, which looks at the financial

0:26:31 > 0:26:33consequences of Great Britain leaving the EU.

0:26:33 > 0:26:37And then it's not a question of punishment payments.

0:26:37 > 0:26:39It's about when you are part of a multilayer, contractual

0:26:39 > 0:26:43obligation and you want to leave that, then of course it takes

0:26:43 > 0:26:46a whole lot of obligations which you have to deal with,

0:26:46 > 0:26:55so both sides are satisfied and can live with the consequences.

0:26:55 > 0:26:59It isn't everyone's interests for the UK to part on good terms.

0:26:59 > 0:27:03Of course there was going to be upset when the UK voted to leave,

0:27:03 > 0:27:06but creating uncertainty over the terms of UK's exit will simply

0:27:06 > 0:27:11have a disruptive effect on exports to UK markets.

0:27:11 > 0:27:15Far better to have a sensible, amicable negotiation that results

0:27:15 > 0:27:17both sides being able to trade together and work

0:27:17 > 0:27:24together post-Brexit.

0:27:24 > 0:27:26Markus Krall is managing director of Goetzpartners,

0:27:26 > 0:27:27and heads the Financial Institution Industry Group.

0:27:27 > 0:27:33Is it true to say that, if we negotiate Brexit well,

0:27:33 > 0:27:35then a good Brexit can actually strengthen the United Kingdom,

0:27:35 > 0:27:36the European Union and Germany?

0:27:36 > 0:27:38It's absolutely true.

0:27:38 > 0:27:41I think that this is about two things.

0:27:41 > 0:27:46One, about proving that free trade is possible

0:27:46 > 0:27:50between a European Union that is smaller and a former member country.

0:27:50 > 0:27:53If you don't prove that free trade is possible there,

0:27:53 > 0:27:57then the question becomes, what is Europe standing for?

0:27:57 > 0:28:02Number two is, I also believe the free trade,

0:28:02 > 0:28:06free market and democratic and less bureaucratic approach that Britain

0:28:06 > 0:28:08has chosen as the path into the future is a role

0:28:08 > 0:28:11model for Europe.

0:28:11 > 0:28:14The time has come both for the United Kingdom

0:28:14 > 0:28:17and for the EU to be more clear about what kind of

0:28:17 > 0:28:19deal we can achieve.

0:28:19 > 0:28:21Both sides need to be bold.

0:28:21 > 0:28:25As long as we remain open to free trade and sensible co-operation,

0:28:25 > 0:28:30we can arrive at something that will benefit both sides.

0:28:30 > 0:28:34But one thing's obvious - if we are an open and free trading

0:28:34 > 0:28:36economy, we've got one big cheerleader on our side,

0:28:36 > 0:28:42and that is German business.

0:28:42 > 0:28:44That was Gisela Stuart setting out her case

0:28:44 > 0:28:46and we'll be hearing from the opposite side

0:28:46 > 0:28:47of the argument in the coming weeks.

0:28:47 > 0:28:50Gisela Stuart joins us in the studio now, as does Alastair Campbell.

0:28:50 > 0:28:53He used to work for Tony Blair in Number 10, set up

0:28:53 > 0:28:55the New European Newspaper to campaign against Brexit,

0:28:55 > 0:28:57and is so pro-European that at this year's Labour conference

0:28:57 > 0:29:00he was heard playing Ode to Joy on the bagpipes.

0:29:00 > 0:29:05Welcome both of you.

0:29:05 > 0:29:09We will start with your point in the film, that you think the German

0:29:09 > 0:29:14business once the EU to offer the UK a generous deal because it is in

0:29:14 > 0:29:18their interests, yet the president of the German equivalent of the CBI

0:29:18 > 0:29:24said that defending the single market must be the priority for the

0:29:24 > 0:29:29EU, and another says that the cohesion of the remaining member

0:29:29 > 0:29:36states remains the highest priority. The president of the CBI just after

0:29:36 > 0:29:41the referendum said that it would be in nobody 's interest to introduce

0:29:41 > 0:29:49tariffs and trade barriers. On the UK side, I don't think there's a

0:29:49 > 0:29:52full understanding that economic interests are incredibly important,

0:29:52 > 0:30:00that they are trying to cover economic interests on the cohesion

0:30:00 > 0:30:03of the 27. I think different economic interests will raise the

0:30:03 > 0:30:11head of different countries. The German auto industry is as important

0:30:11 > 0:30:17as the financial sector is here. The banking crisis is far from over, but

0:30:17 > 0:30:23the big riffs which were going on is that the E U is losing its second

0:30:23 > 0:30:28biggest net contributor. Countries like Germany want a deal with the UK

0:30:28 > 0:30:34that is a free open market. There are other tensions in the EU that

0:30:34 > 0:30:38wants to become more protectionist, and that is a bad thing.Looking at

0:30:38 > 0:30:46the film there with the Jacob Rees-Mogg interview. No matter what

0:30:46 > 0:30:51side of leave you are, it is delusional and all driven by wishful

0:30:51 > 0:30:56thinking. You could find a businessman who says Brexit will be

0:30:56 > 0:31:00good for Germany. The vast bulk of British businesses think this is a

0:31:00 > 0:31:04disaster, as do the vast bulk of European businesses. One of the

0:31:04 > 0:31:09delusions on which they ran their campaign is the idea that they need

0:31:09 > 0:31:16us more than we need them. That is not true.Be you self about £80

0:31:16 > 0:31:20billion more in goods and services into the UK than we do to them, and

0:31:20 > 0:31:25Germany has one of the biggest deficits. It is in their interest.

0:31:25 > 0:31:30Of course it is, but it is a myth that they need us more than we need

0:31:30 > 0:31:37them. The damage that will be done to us, even with a good deal. Let's

0:31:37 > 0:31:43be frank, where these negotiations are, Theresa May is either going to

0:31:43 > 0:31:49end up with a bad deal and dumber or no Deal. A bad deal is bad, and a no

0:31:49 > 0:31:56deal is a catastrophe.You are setting up ideas that which were not

0:31:56 > 0:32:03there to begin with and knocking them down. Delusional.35 billion,

0:32:03 > 0:32:08the Brexit bonus.If we had a referendum, it was a democratic

0:32:08 > 0:32:12decision. I know you don't like it and that a lot of business would

0:32:12 > 0:32:17have preferred to stay with the status quo. We have had the

0:32:17 > 0:32:22referendum. Undermining political institutions is in no one's

0:32:22 > 0:32:28interests. It is functioning democracies which lead to economic

0:32:28 > 0:32:34stability.Theresa May fought an election Inc on a hard Brexit that

0:32:34 > 0:32:48was rejected.As we heard from BMW, there is uncertainty for business.

0:32:48 > 0:32:53There will be elections, European elections, in 2019. There will be a

0:32:53 > 0:32:57change of the Commission and the parliament. We have a narrow window

0:32:57 > 0:33:01to implement the mandate for the referendum which Parliament voted

0:33:01 > 0:33:08for. So rather than you undermining this country, why don't you work

0:33:08 > 0:33:13together to get the best deal? Because we totally disagree.You

0:33:13 > 0:33:19don't want a good deal?I'm in favour of a good deal, and I could

0:33:19 > 0:33:24give them some advice as to how they get a good deal. First, you have a

0:33:24 > 0:33:30cabinet that has an agreed strategy. 18 months in, they don't have that.

0:33:30 > 0:33:36I am not undermining a deal. I am continuing to pose questions about

0:33:36 > 0:33:42what they are trying to do and how they are trying to do it. This is

0:33:42 > 0:33:47democracy. Democracy is the ability for Parliament, which is not doing

0:33:47 > 0:33:51its job properly, and the public, to keep scrutinising, and if they want

0:33:51 > 0:33:58to change their mind, having the right to do that.You were trying to

0:33:58 > 0:34:02encourage the Taoiseach yesterday to play hardball with the UK.I am on

0:34:02 > 0:34:07the side of the UK, and I am worried that if we go down the path that we

0:34:07 > 0:34:12are being taken down, and Theresa May and Boris Johnson and the rest

0:34:12 > 0:34:17of them, this shambolic path, we are going to do fundamental, lasting

0:34:17 > 0:34:21damage to the country we love. I don't care about the Civil Aviation

0:34:21 > 0:34:27Authority. I care about Britain. -- I don't care about the European

0:34:27 > 0:34:36Union. If every lorry going into the UK today was stopped for just two

0:34:36 > 0:34:42minutes, we would create an instant 17 mile traffic jam. These people

0:34:42 > 0:34:52just don't care...I am not these people! Let us not conflate... You

0:34:52 > 0:34:56either decide that you are implementing a democratic decision

0:34:56 > 0:34:59of a referendum that was

0:34:59 > 0:35:02of a referendum that was called and over 17 million voted.You will not

0:35:02 > 0:35:10stop me debating it. Just as Nigel Farage...Stop talking about Nigel

0:35:10 > 0:35:21Farrell Raj. Vote Leave was not Nigel Farage. There is no desire in

0:35:21 > 0:35:26Germany to punish the United Kingdom.They are behaving

0:35:26 > 0:35:30reasonably.There is a battle of protectionism and free market going

0:35:30 > 0:35:36on. If we implement this properly, give businesses the kind of

0:35:36 > 0:35:42incentives they want, we can get a good deal. So you want a bad deal?

0:35:42 > 0:35:49You are driven by wishful thinking. Gisela Stuart, you are saying that

0:35:49 > 0:35:53business will intervene to prevent things like tariffs being put in

0:35:53 > 0:35:57place? They are leaving it a bit late to put pressure on.You will

0:35:57 > 0:36:01find that business is laying out the kind of things they need to get

0:36:01 > 0:36:06those deals. I can find as much fault with the speed of the

0:36:06 > 0:36:10progress, but what I really do resent is that you are actually

0:36:10 > 0:36:19encouraging other countries to undermine...Know I am not! I spoke

0:36:19 > 0:36:22out in support of the Irish Taoiseach because I spent a lot of

0:36:22 > 0:36:26time with Tony Blair and his team on the Good Friday Agreement. The

0:36:26 > 0:36:30people who are driving this hard Brexit without thinking it through,

0:36:30 > 0:36:36still no answer on how you do Brexit in our island without a hard border.

0:36:36 > 0:36:44I think the Irish Taoiseach is right to call out the government on the

0:36:44 > 0:36:48incompetence and the fact they have not thought it through.You accept

0:36:48 > 0:36:53the result of the referendum and the fact that we will be leaving the EU?

0:36:53 > 0:36:58I accept the result of the referendum, but I do not accept that

0:36:58 > 0:37:02the country will definitely leave, because the country is entitled to

0:37:02 > 0:37:08change its mind. As the chaos and costs mount, the public is entitled

0:37:08 > 0:37:13to change its mind and will change its mind.There is no evidence at

0:37:13 > 0:37:22the moment.Come out with me!Allow me to finish the sentence. There is

0:37:22 > 0:37:28a changing of mind happening, a crystallisation. Unlike you, I have

0:37:28 > 0:37:34fought five elections and I have won five elections. I have probably

0:37:34 > 0:37:39spoken to more people like you.You may do, I'm just saying, come out on

0:37:39 > 0:37:45the road with me...40% of the population in the middle just want

0:37:45 > 0:37:51us to get on with it. What that film showed is that if you want to make

0:37:51 > 0:37:56it a self-fulfilling prophecy that it's a disaster, which I don't. I

0:37:56 > 0:38:02want to implement a deal that is good for British jobs. The rest of

0:38:02 > 0:38:09the world is changing in terms of technology. Currently, Germany

0:38:09 > 0:38:15hasn't even got a government, and nobody is laughing about that.And

0:38:15 > 0:38:17they are stable without a government!Let's leave it

0:38:25 > 0:38:27Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics.

0:38:27 > 0:38:31It's official - Sinn Fein is to get a new leader after Gerry Adams

0:38:31 > 0:38:34announced his plan to step down, at this weekend's

0:38:34 > 0:38:36Ard Fheis in Dublin.

0:38:36 > 0:38:39I'll be asking Michelle O'Neill what lies ahead for the party given

0:38:39 > 0:38:41the current political challenges.

0:38:41 > 0:38:44And we've upgraded our usual duet of guests to a trio

0:38:44 > 0:38:46to share their thoughts with us.

0:38:46 > 0:38:49So it's a warm welcome to commentators Chris Donnelly

0:38:49 > 0:38:51and Allison Morris and to Professor Rick Wilford

0:38:51 > 0:38:59from Queen's University.

0:38:59 > 0:39:02Sinn Fein will soon have a new leader, after Gerry Adams

0:39:02 > 0:39:06announced he's standing down after 34 years in the post.

0:39:06 > 0:39:08At a time when major political announcements are nearly

0:39:08 > 0:39:11always leaked beforehand, our Dublin correspondent,

0:39:11 > 0:39:20Shane Harrison, now reports on how the news was kept under wraps.

0:39:26 > 0:39:31It is around eight o'clock on Friday night and Sinn Fein's deputy leader

0:39:31 > 0:39:37Mary Lou McDonald takes to the stage and says...Welcome one and all to

0:39:37 > 0:39:43this very historic Sinn Fein Ard Fheis.Historic? It is not a

0:39:43 > 0:39:48significant anniversary, the party is 112 years old and has been here

0:39:48 > 0:39:53before. So what could she possibly mean? Might it have anything to do

0:39:53 > 0:39:57with what Gerry Adams might say in his presidential address about his

0:39:57 > 0:40:02future leadership?Gerry Adams has given a few clues as to what he is

0:40:02 > 0:40:06going to say, he has given me some clues, but told me not to share it

0:40:06 > 0:40:11with Shane Harrison and the BBC. It will be significant, as every Ard

0:40:11 > 0:40:15Fheis is.It is momentous for a very special reason, but we cannot say

0:40:15 > 0:40:23yet.So let's call it the Jerry Jeeps. Those who say would tell

0:40:23 > 0:40:29until Gerry reveals all. The National Executive has just passed

0:40:29 > 0:40:34an unnoticed motion on the party's Constitution, rules and regulations.

0:40:34 > 0:40:39It allows for an extraordinary Ard Fheis to be summoned, no more than

0:40:39 > 0:40:45three months after a vacancy occurs in the office of the president.

0:40:45 > 0:40:53Could this be a clue to query the Gerry Ts is going? We will come back

0:40:53 > 0:40:58to the Adams big reveal. On Friday night, Sinn Fein party motion Allen

0:40:58 > 0:41:03and the party to go into coalition size of the border as a junior

0:41:03 > 0:41:07partner, as it pushes for a united Ireland and fights against a hard

0:41:07 > 0:41:12Brexit. Yes, there would have to be a special Ard Fheis and an agreed

0:41:12 > 0:41:15policy programme, and for the sake of the argument, we are going to

0:41:15 > 0:41:22have to forget about... They would have nothing to do with Sinn Fein in

0:41:22 > 0:41:25Government.What I want an election night is for the question to be

0:41:25 > 0:41:30changed on its head, not who is Sinn Fein going into Government with, but

0:41:30 > 0:41:34who will Sinn Fein take into Government with us? That is the

0:41:34 > 0:41:37fundamental question we want to picture the Irish people between now

0:41:37 > 0:41:41and the next election.We want to be in Government and implement our

0:41:41 > 0:41:44policies, driving towards a united Ireland. We very much want to fight

0:41:44 > 0:41:51to prevent a hard Brexit and he reimposed border. We are determined

0:41:51 > 0:41:57by whatever we can to prevent bad. At this weekend's Ard Fheis, Sinn

0:41:57 > 0:42:00Fein remembered the late Martin McGuinness, with a photo exhibition,

0:42:00 > 0:42:07a musical tribute and an emotional appearance on the stage by his

0:42:07 > 0:42:17widow. No longer... The question remains, how much longer can they

0:42:17 > 0:42:23be? The Sinn Fein leader was 20 minutes into his speech when he

0:42:23 > 0:42:30answered that question.This is the important bit.

0:42:30 > 0:42:34LAUGHTER This is my last Ard Fheis as the

0:42:34 > 0:42:42president. I will be asking the incoming president to agree a date

0:42:42 > 0:42:46in 2000 and eating very special Ard Fheis to enact our next president.

0:42:46 > 0:42:53-- to enact.Gerry Adams has just finished speaking, it is not going

0:42:53 > 0:42:58to be a case of a long goodbye. Sinn Fein wants a new leader at a time of

0:42:58 > 0:43:01Brexit, at a time of political instability North and south of the

0:43:01 > 0:43:02border.

0:43:02 > 0:43:04Shane Harrison reporting from the Sinn Fein Ard Fheis.

0:43:04 > 0:43:06And joining me live now from our Dublin studio

0:43:06 > 0:43:11is the party's Stormont leader, Michelle O'Neill.

0:43:11 > 0:43:13Thank you for joining us on the programme.

0:43:13 > 0:43:15Gerry Adams said last night: "Leadership means knowing

0:43:15 > 0:43:17when it is time for change."

0:43:17 > 0:43:18Why is it time for change?

0:43:18 > 0:43:24Why is now the time for Gerry Adams to stand down?

0:43:24 > 0:43:28Good morning, Mark. We have certainly had a very exciting, and

0:43:28 > 0:43:31emotional Ard Fheis over the course of the last two days. We have had

0:43:31 > 0:43:34all the topics discussed, or the social issues and the issue of

0:43:34 > 0:43:40united Ireland and the position of Jerry's leadership when he told the

0:43:40 > 0:43:46delegates first it is time for him to stand down. It is about

0:43:46 > 0:43:50reflecting on a Gerry's leadership and how he has grown the party over

0:43:50 > 0:43:55the last 34 years. Since 1983 when a Gerry took over in the aftermath of

0:43:55 > 0:44:00the hunger strikes, at that time we were in the middle of conflict, when

0:44:00 > 0:44:03you look at his leadership throughout that time in all those 34

0:44:03 > 0:44:08years, he is an immense man, a man of amazing leadership skill, he has

0:44:08 > 0:44:14nurtured the party and grown it, he has been so supportive. For us, this

0:44:14 > 0:44:18has certainly been an historic Ard Fheis, but for me it has been an

0:44:18 > 0:44:21emotional. It was our first conference without Martin

0:44:21 > 0:44:25McGuinness, there was a beautiful tribute to him yesterday evening.I

0:44:25 > 0:44:28am not surprised you would want to be a warm tribute to Gerry Adams and

0:44:28 > 0:44:35Martin McGuinness. He has been a successful leader in your view for

0:44:35 > 0:44:3934 years. He pointed out the strength of the party at the moment.

0:44:39 > 0:44:41He pointed out the current electoral strength

0:44:41 > 0:44:44of the party last night - 23 TDs, four MEPs, 27 MLAs,

0:44:44 > 0:44:47seven MPs and over 250 councillors.

0:44:47 > 0:44:50There are big challenges, the Brexit debate, the challenge of getting

0:44:50 > 0:44:55into Government in the Republic. He is standing down out of the blue, is

0:44:55 > 0:44:59that an admission he is not the challenges ahead?He is more than

0:44:59 > 0:45:03fit for it. What he set himself last night, one of the things in

0:45:03 > 0:45:08leadership, you should know when it is time to stand down. Why is it

0:45:08 > 0:45:11time to stand down? He has decided now is the time for him to stand

0:45:11 > 0:45:15down because he knows he has nurtured a collective leadership,

0:45:15 > 0:45:19and leadership funerals will now encourage and refresh the party, it

0:45:19 > 0:45:23will make sure the party has longevity. He thinks there is the

0:45:23 > 0:45:27time personally for him to stand down. He knows across our leadership

0:45:27 > 0:45:31there are people that can step into that role, that can take the party

0:45:31 > 0:45:38forward. That code is testimony to the leadership skills he has.Is he

0:45:38 > 0:45:43still going to be in the background pulling the strings?Noel, Gerry has

0:45:43 > 0:45:48decided to stand down, he will support the new leader who comes in.

0:45:48 > 0:45:52We will all throw our weight behind any new leader. It is emotional and

0:45:52 > 0:45:57exciting. If you look at all the debate yesterday which we have had

0:45:57 > 0:46:02towards a united Ireland, we have supported over 500,000 people across

0:46:02 > 0:46:10the Island. I have confidence in our collective leadership. I will put

0:46:10 > 0:46:15confidence in our new president. Could I be talking to Sinn Fein's

0:46:15 > 0:46:18new president?I think I have enough to do in terms of leading the party

0:46:18 > 0:46:23in the North. We will see who puts their name forward and I will make

0:46:23 > 0:46:27my decision in terms of who I support at that time.Are you ruling

0:46:27 > 0:46:31out putting your own name forward?I am indeed. I have enough to do in

0:46:31 > 0:46:34terms of dealing with the problems we have in the North, trying to get

0:46:34 > 0:46:38the institutions up and running a game, building confidence people

0:46:38 > 0:46:46need to see in the Stormont Executive.You have ruled yourself

0:46:46 > 0:46:50out. Will there be a contest for this position in the New Year or

0:46:50 > 0:46:53will it be the anointing of Mary Lou McDonald, the current vice

0:46:53 > 0:46:59president?What's going to happen it is the new president, elected

0:46:59 > 0:47:02yesterday, will come forward in the next couple of weeks, they will meet

0:47:02 > 0:47:06and decide the process for the start of next year when we were elected

0:47:06 > 0:47:11new leader. That process is yet to be declared. We will have a special

0:47:11 > 0:47:16Ard Fheis at the start of the year, a very healthy process, we will

0:47:16 > 0:47:19elect our new leader. You didn't have to go through an open contest.

0:47:19 > 0:47:25There was no contest. Why should the Sinn Fein president have to go

0:47:25 > 0:47:29through the inconvenience of a democratic election?My selection

0:47:29 > 0:47:33was the same as any other party leaders, in terms of selecting who

0:47:33 > 0:47:41is the front bench. The president of the party will be elected at a

0:47:41 > 0:47:45special Ard Fheis. Will it be a contest? That is to be seen, it

0:47:45 > 0:47:48depends who wants to put a name forward.Would you like it to be a

0:47:48 > 0:47:55contest?

0:47:55 > 0:47:58Wouldn't a proper leadership election contest make more sense?

0:47:58 > 0:48:01A real opportunity for a party that talks a lot about its democratic

0:48:01 > 0:48:03principles to have an open debate and give members a real choice?

0:48:03 > 0:48:06They will have to get support across the party to put their name forward.

0:48:06 > 0:48:09If there is a contest, so be it. We will go to the floor, delegates will

0:48:09 > 0:48:13vote and will put our weight behind whatever the outcome is.The

0:48:13 > 0:48:17decision to allow the party to go into Government as a junior partner

0:48:17 > 0:48:21in the Republic is interesting.Why has there been a U-turn on that? We

0:48:21 > 0:48:24have always said we are ready for Government and determined to go into

0:48:24 > 0:48:32Government. If you look the housing crisis, the crisis in the health

0:48:32 > 0:48:36crisis. The people are tired of the start of school, they want change.

0:48:36 > 0:48:40What we said in this Ard Fheis is we are prepared to go into Government

0:48:40 > 0:48:44and we will do so on the basis of negotiating a strong programme for

0:48:44 > 0:48:48Government, one that deals with public services and one that has an

0:48:48 > 0:48:53agenda to uniting Ireland and a policy for a referendum.There was a

0:48:53 > 0:48:57serious dose of reality at the weekend because your position up to

0:48:57 > 0:49:01yesterday was that you would only go into Government in the Republic as

0:49:01 > 0:49:04the senior partner. You have realised that is not practical in

0:49:04 > 0:49:07the short term, if you're going to get into Government in Leinster

0:49:07 > 0:49:13House you will have to do it as the junior partner.I think you're

0:49:13 > 0:49:16making an assumption. It will be up to the people to decide who is going

0:49:16 > 0:49:20into Government. We will put ourselves before the Government to

0:49:20 > 0:49:27league-mac public. Whenever you listen to who they are going to be

0:49:27 > 0:49:31in Government with, that is arrogant. The people will decide who

0:49:31 > 0:49:38goes into Government. We will set ODB says. We will put ourselves

0:49:38 > 0:49:43before the electorate, a Government that ends corruption, stands up

0:49:43 > 0:49:49public services, the people decide that.It is a clear expression of

0:49:49 > 0:49:53interest in wanting to be in Government in Dublin, your critics

0:49:53 > 0:49:56here in Northern Ireland remain unconvinced you are genuine about

0:49:56 > 0:50:01wanting to see the Executive back. Tell me whether willingness is to

0:50:01 > 0:50:06compromise on the part of Sinn Fein in the Stormont talks?I think the

0:50:06 > 0:50:09public are very aware about what is at the heart of the current

0:50:09 > 0:50:13political impasse in the North. Sinn Fein want to be in the Executive. I

0:50:13 > 0:50:16want to pick our departments and deal with all the issues at hand,

0:50:16 > 0:50:23tackle Greg says, deal with Tory austerities. We know what needs to

0:50:23 > 0:50:30happen. There are issues that need to be delivered on, previous

0:50:30 > 0:50:33agreements need to be delivered on. If we fix those things, we can get

0:50:33 > 0:50:38an Executive up and running. We want to be in the Executive and we will

0:50:38 > 0:50:42do so on the basis of all those things been resolved.John O'Dowd

0:50:42 > 0:50:46told me in a recent conversation that Sinn Fein cannot compromise on

0:50:46 > 0:50:50a compromise, you could point to any flexibility on Sinn Fein's position.

0:50:50 > 0:50:53All of the flexibility at Pali has to come from the DUP and other

0:50:53 > 0:50:57parties. Is that your position? You are not negotiating or compromising

0:50:57 > 0:51:03on any of those core principles?In politics you always have to

0:51:03 > 0:51:05compromise. John was pointing out that we have compromised in the

0:51:05 > 0:51:09past, we have made agreements with the DUP and they have failed to

0:51:09 > 0:51:15deliver. That is the problem. We need to see the delivery of previous

0:51:15 > 0:51:18agreements, people being given the same rights as they can get you in

0:51:18 > 0:51:21Dublin, you can get married and have your language rights, in the North

0:51:21 > 0:51:25you cannot. Once you get those things results, we will establish an

0:51:25 > 0:51:30Executive. Any incoming Executive is going to have big challenges, if you

0:51:30 > 0:51:34look at Brexit, Tory austerities. Unless we resolve those issues, the

0:51:34 > 0:51:38Executive is not sustainable. We are committed to being in the

0:51:38 > 0:51:42institutions in the North. We want to be in the institutions right

0:51:42 > 0:51:46across the islands. We need to deal with the issues at the heart of the

0:51:46 > 0:51:50political impasse if we are going to get it up and running again.You met

0:51:50 > 0:51:53the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar last week and a delegation from the party is

0:51:53 > 0:51:57to meet the Prime Minister Theresa May on Tuesday. What do you hope to

0:51:57 > 0:52:02get out of that meeting?We met the Taoiseach on Thursday or Friday and

0:52:02 > 0:52:06we are meeting Theresa May on Tuesday. We are saying the DUP have

0:52:06 > 0:52:11failed to deliver on the rights -based issue, they have failed to

0:52:11 > 0:52:15deliver on previous agreements, we are calling on both governments to

0:52:15 > 0:52:20play their role in the Good Friday Agreement, to deliver on the

0:52:20 > 0:52:23agreements, to establish the intergovernmental conference. That

0:52:23 > 0:52:27allows for joint partnership working between both governments. When I

0:52:27 > 0:52:31need May on Tuesday, I will make that point to her. One of the

0:52:31 > 0:52:35problems we have is the fact the DUP have a political pact with the

0:52:35 > 0:52:42Tories, they haven't stood by, they haven't encouraged them to go on to

0:52:42 > 0:52:49the ground of delivering on previous agreements.The British-Irish

0:52:49 > 0:52:51Intergovernmental Conference is an interesting demand from your point

0:52:51 > 0:52:55of view. Some people would interpret that as an admission that the

0:52:55 > 0:52:59Stormont talks are going nowhere fast. We are away with the stocks at

0:52:59 > 0:53:04the moment? By the active or not? Gregory Campbell told me the DUP is

0:53:04 > 0:53:08still talking to Sinn Fein. A Sinn Fein representative couldn't say

0:53:08 > 0:53:12whether the talks were ongoing or not. What is the current status of

0:53:12 > 0:53:18the devolution talks?The talks are not ongoing. What I said over the

0:53:18 > 0:53:22course of the last several weeks is endless talks without an outcome are

0:53:22 > 0:53:26not good enough. We need to bring an end to the phase of talks. We will

0:53:26 > 0:53:30come back to a talks process of some description. We cannot keep going

0:53:30 > 0:53:35round the hamster wheel. The issues are clear. Everybody knows what

0:53:35 > 0:53:38needs to be resolved in order to establish the Executive. We will

0:53:38 > 0:53:42always talk to all the other partners in Government. We need to

0:53:42 > 0:53:45get an outcome and it needs to be the delivery on his previous

0:53:45 > 0:53:50agreements. It has to be the delivery of people's writes. We need

0:53:50 > 0:53:54an Executive that is sustainable, people have confidence in and it is

0:53:54 > 0:53:58something with integrity.You have got to deal with the fact we are

0:53:58 > 0:54:03heading towards direct rule, apparently?We do not want direct

0:54:03 > 0:54:07rule, it won't work, it has failed in the past and will fail again.

0:54:07 > 0:54:11They will only enjoy the confidence and the support of the public if

0:54:11 > 0:54:15they serve all the people which they are intended to serve. That means

0:54:15 > 0:54:19delivering all people their rights, making sure we have equality in

0:54:19 > 0:54:22Government, mutual respect. That the Government people can have

0:54:22 > 0:54:23confidence in.

0:54:23 > 0:54:25Michelle O'Neill in Dublin, thank you.

0:54:25 > 0:54:28Let's hear from my guests of the day - commentator Chris Donnelly,

0:54:28 > 0:54:34Allison Morris from the Irish News, and Professor Rick Wilford.

0:54:34 > 0:54:38Chris Donnelly, let's talk about Gerry Adams's decision. Possibly no

0:54:38 > 0:54:42great surprise. The speed with which he has apparently stood down as

0:54:42 > 0:54:48interesting.Yes, it is undoubtedly the case Gerry Adams and the Sinn

0:54:48 > 0:54:52Fein leadership are now looking towards removing the party into a

0:54:52 > 0:54:56position where it can get into Government in the south. They are

0:54:56 > 0:54:59looking at the fact there is an acceptance that Gerry Adams is

0:54:59 > 0:55:03coming to the end of his leadership tenure and that Mary Lou McDonald

0:55:03 > 0:55:12might position it Sinn Fein is better to be able to sit alongside a

0:55:12 > 0:55:16Government. That would be a key development for Sinn Fein to finally

0:55:16 > 0:55:18make that breakthrough, and potentially be in Government in

0:55:18 > 0:55:24North and south of the same time. Gerry Adams says leadership is about

0:55:24 > 0:55:29knowing it is time for change. Why is it time for him to stand down now

0:55:29 > 0:55:38specifically?If you look at the motion which changed... Sinn Fein,

0:55:38 > 0:55:41that Ard Fheis, it was about social issues in the south, it was about

0:55:41 > 0:55:46getting into Government in the side. There was very little of it when you

0:55:46 > 0:55:49listen to it about the North and the political crisis up here. Gerry

0:55:49 > 0:55:52Adams is standing down at this political pound, making room for an

0:55:52 > 0:55:56Mary Lou McDonald, a more suitable partner in Government. It is all

0:55:56 > 0:56:03very deliberate.Michelle O'Neill ruled herself out. She is not

0:56:03 > 0:56:07interested, she has got enough to be getting on with she says. Is it

0:56:07 > 0:56:12going to be the anointing of Mary Lou McDonald?Probably. There is no

0:56:12 > 0:56:15way that Gerry Adams's successor could come from Northern Ireland, it

0:56:15 > 0:56:22has to be somebody from the side. Chris is right, Mary Lou McDonald is

0:56:22 > 0:56:25ideally placed. It will be another coronation, just like we have for

0:56:25 > 0:56:36the party leaders appear. -- up here. The intellectual heft of Sinn

0:56:36 > 0:56:43Fein is increasingly moving southwards. You cannot think Sinn

0:56:43 > 0:56:46Fein representatives in Northern Ireland there is anybody who

0:56:46 > 0:56:50probably can have the potential appeal of Mary Lou McDonald as a

0:56:50 > 0:56:58candidate at the next general election.Chris, in terms of how it

0:56:58 > 0:57:02the party shifts and changes, moves in a new direction, North and south,

0:57:02 > 0:57:07how do you see that unfolding in the months and years ahead without Gerry

0:57:07 > 0:57:12Adams at the helm?Gerry Adams came to be the personification of

0:57:12 > 0:57:16modern-day Sinn Fein, he is leaving a legacy in terms of how he has

0:57:16 > 0:57:20developed the southern wing of the party. Now they are on the verge of

0:57:20 > 0:57:24being a partner in Government, albeit they had to move him out to

0:57:24 > 0:57:27make it be the case that the party is in a stronger position. His

0:57:27 > 0:57:33greatest concern is to ensure that the party North and south stays

0:57:33 > 0:57:39together. There is a concern that the asymmetrical development of the

0:57:39 > 0:57:43party, the site is more ideological, the North still has those hang-up

0:57:43 > 0:57:47issues from the conflict. -- the south. The job for Michelle O'Neill

0:57:47 > 0:57:53is going to be crucial, and her team it is important.Under any risks for

0:57:53 > 0:57:59Sinn Fein in this?Gerry Adams is such a massive figure, he

1:00:52 > 1:00:56border. -- Ken Clarke. When you talk to people who support Brexit in

1:00:56 > 1:00:59Northern Ireland, they say it is very simple and straightforward, it

1:00:59 > 1:01:07can be done.No, they don't. It is important Leo Varadkar says this as

1:01:07 > 1:01:12the pointy can we are maximum influence. It is surprising some

1:01:12 > 1:01:17people said he was caught off-guard. It was always going to be the case

1:01:17 > 1:01:23the Irish Government knew they had to get this right at this moment. It

1:01:23 > 1:01:26suggests they haven't properly thought this through. I cannot see

1:01:26 > 1:01:30Leo Varadkar moving at this time. This could be potentially

1:01:30 > 1:01:31catastrophic for the Irish economy.

1:01:31 > 1:01:31That's it, back to Sarah in London.

1:01:38 > 1:01:41Philip Hammond will deliver his Budget on Wednesday -

1:01:41 > 1:01:44he's moved it to the Autumn if you remember - and he'll be

1:01:44 > 1:01:46hoping it can help re-define the Government in the eyes

1:01:46 > 1:01:47of the public.

1:01:47 > 1:01:51But when it comes to the economy, do people trust

1:01:51 > 1:01:52the Conservatives, or Labour?

1:01:52 > 1:01:57Here's Ellie Price with the moodbox.

1:01:57 > 1:02:05MUSIC: The Road to Nowhere by Talking Heads.

1:02:05 > 1:02:08All eyes will be on the Chancellor this week as we find out

1:02:08 > 1:02:10what he has been cooking up in his Budget.

1:02:10 > 1:02:13So we have pulled off the A1 near Peterborough to ask people here

1:02:13 > 1:02:16who they trust with the economy - is it the Chancellor,

1:02:16 > 1:02:23Philip Hammond, or is it Labour's John McDonnell?

1:02:23 > 1:02:26No 7.

1:02:26 > 1:02:31Which one's Tory?

1:02:38 > 1:02:39I voted Conservative for the last two

1:02:39 > 1:02:44elections, don't feel very confident now, so I'm going to swap.

1:02:44 > 1:02:46If I said to you which of these characters

1:02:46 > 1:02:48would you trust with the economy, what would you say?

1:02:48 > 1:02:50The one who's currently running it, because they

1:02:50 > 1:02:52seem to be bringing the deficit down.

1:02:52 > 1:02:53Labour.

1:02:53 > 1:02:54Why?

1:02:54 > 1:02:57Because I'm an NHS worker.

1:02:57 > 1:03:00For me, it's just about spending, public spending.

1:03:00 > 1:03:05Labour always overspend.

1:03:05 > 1:03:11John McDonnell, I think capitalism as we know it is tanked

1:03:11 > 1:03:16and I think we need a radical re-think.

1:03:16 > 1:03:18Broken his egg, who do you trust more on the economy?

1:03:18 > 1:03:19No one.

1:03:19 > 1:03:22Why?

1:03:22 > 1:03:27Because they never come up trumps with anything that they

1:03:27 > 1:03:28reckon they're going to do.

1:03:28 > 1:03:31If I had to make you choose one of them?

1:03:31 > 1:03:32The man that's there, Hammond.

1:03:32 > 1:03:34I wouldn't trust Philip Hammond with a

1:03:34 > 1:03:40bag of marbles or a plastic ball!

1:03:40 > 1:03:41Hello, Bob.

1:03:41 > 1:03:42Oh, hello.

1:03:42 > 1:03:44Who do you trust more on the economy?

1:03:44 > 1:03:45Oh, the Conservatives.

1:03:45 > 1:03:46Do you? Why's that?

1:03:46 > 1:03:49I just think they're better for the small businessman.

1:03:49 > 1:03:51We need a Maggie or a Winston Churchill,

1:03:51 > 1:03:54somebody in there with balls to say, right,

1:03:54 > 1:03:56that's the direction we are

1:03:56 > 1:03:58going in, that's what we are going to do.

1:03:58 > 1:04:00I've got balls!

1:04:00 > 1:04:02What are you doing?

1:04:02 > 1:04:09Putting balls in holes by the look of it!

1:04:09 > 1:04:11I suppose the lesser of the two evils is anything but Tory,

1:04:11 > 1:04:14but I say that without a great deal of conviction.

1:04:14 > 1:04:17Having grown up in the '70s with all the rubbish on the

1:04:17 > 1:04:18streets, the strikes, the unions.

1:04:18 > 1:04:22Re-nationalisation and they're going to spend a lot of money

1:04:22 > 1:04:28and increase taxes and it will pull the country down.

1:04:28 > 1:04:31I've seen an awful loft of all-day breakfasts today, but it

1:04:31 > 1:04:34is clearing up time here at the diner and time

1:04:34 > 1:04:36to reveal the Moodbox.

1:04:36 > 1:04:38Take it away, Tim.

1:04:38 > 1:04:41As you can say it was a close-run thing, but

1:04:41 > 1:04:43like any fiscally responsible Chancellor, I've done my maths and

1:04:43 > 1:04:50counted and Philip Hammond got six more votes than John McDonnell.

1:04:50 > 1:04:54Oh, chip, thank you very much!

1:04:54 > 1:04:56That was Ellie and the entirely unscientific Moodbox,

1:04:56 > 1:04:58at the Stibbington diner near Peterborough.

1:04:58 > 1:05:01But for a slightly more scientific understanding of how the public view

1:05:01 > 1:05:04the parties on this and other issues, let's have a look

1:05:04 > 1:05:05at some recent polling.

1:05:05 > 1:05:08Here's where the Conservatives and Labour stood on the economy back

1:05:08 > 1:05:11when the Prime Minister called the snap election in April,

1:05:11 > 1:05:14when the Conservatives had a big lead, as they did in many

1:05:14 > 1:05:16other areas.

1:05:16 > 1:05:19The most recent poll by the same company reckoned Labour had narrowed

1:05:19 > 1:05:22the gap significantly, as they have in other areas,

1:05:22 > 1:05:27although they're still 10 points behind the Tories on this issue.

1:05:27 > 1:05:30And there was another survey much discussed at Westminster this week,

1:05:30 > 1:05:36showing that while the gap between Theresa May

1:05:36 > 1:05:38and Jeremy Corbyn has narrowed drastically since that pre-election

1:05:38 > 1:05:40period, Mrs May is, despite her many problems,

1:05:40 > 1:05:42still pretty much level-pegging in polling terms or

1:05:42 > 1:05:43even slightly ahead.

1:05:43 > 1:05:45And when it comes to how people intend to vote

1:05:45 > 1:05:48while the Tories are behind, there's no sign of a

1:05:48 > 1:05:50big Labour lead yet.

1:05:50 > 1:05:52Tony Blair thinks that, given the current "mess"

1:05:52 > 1:05:56inside the Government, Jeremy Corbyn's party should be

1:05:56 > 1:05:5910 or 15 points ahead.

1:05:59 > 1:06:02Well, many in Labour will find it easy to dismiss both Tony Blair

1:06:02 > 1:06:05and the opinion polls, as they both called the last election entirely

1:06:05 > 1:06:11wrong, so what if anything do these polls tell us?

1:06:11 > 1:06:20Let's turn to our expert panel. Labour are now eight points on the

1:06:20 > 1:06:24economy, according to a poll. Why is there a gap between Labour and the

1:06:24 > 1:06:31Tories?There seems to be a deep-seated reservation in the minds

1:06:31 > 1:06:34of many voters. They look at Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell and

1:06:34 > 1:06:40imagine them in charge of the country, the finances, national

1:06:40 > 1:06:43security, and think... It is unfashionable to point out in many

1:06:43 > 1:06:47circles that Labour did not win the last election, and it didn't win it

1:06:47 > 1:06:53for that kind of reason. Jeremy Corbyn is very good at attracting

1:06:53 > 1:06:59and inspiring young people and people who had not voted before. We

1:06:59 > 1:07:05underestimated his capacity to do that. But he wasn't great at turning

1:07:05 > 1:07:10Tories to Labour, or sealing off those final reservations. The

1:07:10 > 1:07:14government have had a shambolic few weeks. We are tripping over

1:07:14 > 1:07:18resigning a cabinet ministers. They are fighting like ferrets. A lot of

1:07:18 > 1:07:22people are having a really tough time and looking at the government

1:07:22 > 1:07:26to help them, and are unimpressed with what they see. But there seems

1:07:26 > 1:07:34to be a final fence that Corbyn does not seem to be able to get over.

1:07:34 > 1:07:39Isn't Tony Blair right, that Labour should be 15 or 20 points ahead?I

1:07:39 > 1:07:43think he's completely wrong, and is revealing he is out of date. I think

1:07:43 > 1:07:46Labour are in a really good position. If you look at what they

1:07:46 > 1:07:52have achieved in the last year, going into Christmas 2016, Corbyn

1:07:52 > 1:07:59had just managed to avoid, had to re-fight Labour leadership contest.

1:07:59 > 1:08:06They were 20 points behind. Theresa May was at the top of her game.

1:08:06 > 1:08:10Through the general election and beyond it, they have continued to

1:08:10 > 1:08:15build their movement. They are very effective on social media. I think

1:08:15 > 1:08:20they are in a strong position, and they need about 60 seats to win the

1:08:20 > 1:08:25next general election. They will probably start with 25 of those. The

1:08:25 > 1:08:29fact that they are closing the gap on the economy suggests that a lot

1:08:29 > 1:08:34of voters are now giving them a chance or a hearing, which they

1:08:34 > 1:08:38certainly were not getting a year ago. I think they have done very

1:08:38 > 1:08:43well.Can they be confident with a slim lead against the government?I

1:08:43 > 1:08:48am slightly more with Tony Blair than with Iain. This goes back to

1:08:48 > 1:08:56that very general election result. A huge turnout for Labour for Jeremy

1:08:56 > 1:09:03Corbyn. If you asked that same 40% of people today, do you want Jeremy

1:09:03 > 1:09:07Corbyn to be Prime Minister? Where you really voting for Jeremy Corbyn

1:09:07 > 1:09:13to lead the British governmentanswer is no, because Theresa May still,

1:09:13 > 1:09:17despite the fact she is presiding over a shambolic cabinet, she has

1:09:17 > 1:09:24the most support for Prime Minister. The last general election may have

1:09:24 > 1:09:30just been a giant by-election, because everyone was so short that

1:09:30 > 1:09:34Theresa May would get in.The Chancellor Philip Hammond gave

1:09:34 > 1:09:41Labour a bit of a gift, when he said, there were not any unemployed

1:09:41 > 1:09:47people in Britain. A slip of the tongue. Was that damaging?You have

1:09:47 > 1:09:51to look at the context he was saying it in, which will not be the context

1:09:51 > 1:09:59of the Facebook meme you will get shortly. He was asked about future

1:09:59 > 1:10:09unemployment, and he was saying that when technological advances came,

1:10:09 > 1:10:15unemployment didn't materialise. They would not be able to use that

1:10:15 > 1:10:19against him so easily if it didn't have something that people think

1:10:19 > 1:10:23about the Conservative government, which is that they are out of touch,

1:10:23 > 1:10:27they have no idea about some people, that they refuse to see what they

1:10:27 > 1:10:32have done. People have that idea about the Conservatives, so to drop

1:10:32 > 1:10:38a bit of a clanger in that regard... The budget is on Wednesday, and also

1:10:38 > 1:10:42this week, the Brexit committee will be meeting. What will they be

1:10:42 > 1:10:47talking about and why does it matter?What Stephen Hammond said to

1:10:47 > 1:10:50you a few moments ago was fascinating. Tomorrow is going to be

1:10:50 > 1:10:57the big meeting. It is the negotiations committee. Nine or so

1:10:57 > 1:11:00ministers have recently been included in that, like Michael Gove.

1:11:00 > 1:11:05They are going to be talking about the money, precisely how much they

1:11:05 > 1:11:10offer in two weeks' time to meet this deadline in the December

1:11:10 > 1:11:13council for phase two. Michael Gove and Boris Johnson want to add in

1:11:13 > 1:11:19conditions. They want to say, we will give you this as long as we get

1:11:19 > 1:11:24that. What was fascinating with Stephen Hammond just now was that he

1:11:24 > 1:11:26revealed that it wasn't just the Brexiteers in Cabinet who want a

1:11:26 > 1:11:37more precise definition of what we are going for, it is the remainers

1:11:37 > 1:11:42as well.In the heart of the government, David Davis is trying to

1:11:42 > 1:11:50keep the bill as low as possible, possibly around 30%. The divorce

1:11:50 > 1:11:56Bill and future liabilities. Some in the civil service have suggested

1:11:56 > 1:12:03that it has to be 40 or above. What it reveals to me is really, it's

1:12:03 > 1:12:07another function of Britain not really having a proper Prime

1:12:07 > 1:12:12Minister. In normal circumstances, of course the Cabinet is divided. A

1:12:12 > 1:12:16strong leader would say, right, this is what is happening. This is where

1:12:16 > 1:12:22we are going. We will call it 35 or 40 billion. We will save to the

1:12:22 > 1:12:26European Union, there is the check, but it will not have a signature on

1:12:26 > 1:12:39it until we are satisfied with the next

1:12:45 > 1:12:48stage. The government is hampered by the lack of a strong personality who

1:12:48 > 1:12:50could do that, make a political play with other European leaders that

1:12:50 > 1:12:53might break the deadlock.Presumably that is why the full Cabinet have

1:12:53 > 1:12:55not discussed what the future Brexit deal will be.That is the

1:12:55 > 1:12:58astonishing thing. There has been no sort of vision of what Britain is

1:12:58 > 1:13:02going to look like after Brexit. We have got down in what the

1:13:02 > 1:13:06negotiation position for tomorrow will be. What does it look like in

1:13:06 > 1:13:09terms of immigration, trade with the rest of the world, what life will

1:13:09 > 1:13:15look like for ordinarily... Ordinary people?There are visions for this,

1:13:15 > 1:13:20but they will not agree on one. Is there such a thing as a Tory Cabinet

1:13:20 > 1:13:24Minister who could have one single vision without them all ripping each

1:13:24 > 1:13:29other's heads off? Probably not. Thank you.

1:13:29 > 1:13:30That's all for today.

1:13:30 > 1:13:33Join me again next Sunday at 11.00 here on BBC One.

1:13:33 > 1:13:36Until then, bye bye.