:01:29. > :01:32.We're facing the biggest changes in education in a generation. I'll be
:01:33. > :01:42.asking the minister John O'Dowd how long the selection impasse can
:01:43. > :01:43.
:01:43. > :32:04.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1821 seconds
:32:04. > :32:07.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.
:32:08. > :32:11.Academic selection, falling pupil numbers and school closures. Just
:32:11. > :32:14.some of the problems in our education system. But what's the
:32:14. > :32:17.solution? We set a former principal the challenge. He helped transform
:32:17. > :32:21.a failing school, now he wants our politicians to transform the
:32:21. > :32:24.education system. All of this comes during a recession which has wiped
:32:24. > :32:27.out thousands of jobs. We'll hear from the Education Minister who
:32:27. > :32:30.says schools will have a key role in growing the local economy. And
:32:30. > :32:33.to debate all of this, Scott Naismith, principal of Methodist
:32:33. > :32:36.College in Belfast, and Professor Deirdre Heenan, provost of the
:32:36. > :32:40.University of Ulster's Magee campus. It's a system which needs to change,
:32:40. > :32:43.but are there key areas which must be sorted out before that change
:32:43. > :32:51.can take place? We asked an award- winning former head teacher to
:32:51. > :32:55.produce his own school report. I am a retired principle and I will
:32:55. > :33:04.ask what needs to change to improve the system?
:33:04. > :33:10.Let me be clear. I am opposed to 11 plus in any form. The pressure on
:33:10. > :33:16.children is obscene. Here, time is spent more productively,
:33:16. > :33:22.concentrating on the curriculum. This is a maths class. There is no
:33:22. > :33:27.teaching to any test. Nine of them opted in and the rest opted out so
:33:27. > :33:32.it is my opinion that there is no need for the selection test at the
:33:32. > :33:39.end of this year because they are being continually -- continuously
:33:39. > :33:48.assessed and being given a quality better take -- education. My old
:33:48. > :33:55.friend and fellow principle is equally opposed to the 11 plus exam.
:33:55. > :33:59.He wants a revolution in education. Every school to beat a
:33:59. > :34:04.comprehensive. Are you sure you would take the risk of changing a
:34:04. > :34:08.successful educational system to a completely new system with the
:34:08. > :34:13.possibility it didn't work? What we have at the minute totally doesn't
:34:13. > :34:22.work. I cannot imagine a more dysfunctional alleged educational
:34:22. > :34:26.system than what we have in Northern I am not -- I am a
:34:26. > :34:31.believer in selecting children in streams. That's what our present
:34:31. > :34:37.system does. No, it doesn't. For the largest -- last two years they
:34:37. > :34:42.are subjected to harsh treatment. There is a difference between
:34:42. > :34:49.academic selection and the 11 plus. The 11 plus is the problem not
:34:49. > :34:54.academic selection. Keep academics election because it works.
:34:54. > :34:58.There is some tremendous leadership in our schools and it shows in the
:34:58. > :35:02.success and happiness of our schools. Good headteachers know
:35:02. > :35:06.what schools and pupils need and we should give them more autonomy. I
:35:06. > :35:12.agree with a view that principles need to be better equipped to live
:35:12. > :35:16.with leadership skills. As in thin and, I believe every teacher should
:35:16. > :35:20.have a master's degree and everyone applying for as a principle should
:35:20. > :35:24.have a masters education or work towards it in leadership. The
:35:24. > :35:30.answer to it all is to get a correct balance between autonomy
:35:30. > :35:34.and what I call "intelligent accountability". I am very
:35:34. > :35:39.concerned with an inspectorate which places emphasis on
:35:40. > :35:44.examination results are. Where is the trust and respect between the
:35:44. > :35:48.school leaders and the schools and the Department of Education? He I
:35:48. > :35:52.will now meet one of the people responsible for designing that
:35:52. > :35:58.curriculum and supporting the teachers who deliver it. I support
:35:58. > :36:06.the view of many teachers that training methods are crucial.
:36:06. > :36:12.have a comprehensive range of online training. The intention is
:36:12. > :36:19.to allow more teachers time to teach. We have moved from a model
:36:19. > :36:24.of professional development which quite often brings a large numbers
:36:24. > :36:29.of teachers out of school. Overall I think we are getting it right in
:36:29. > :36:33.the curriculum but the thorny issue of selection and some poor
:36:33. > :36:37.leadership and the need for autonomy of schools is blighting
:36:37. > :36:41.the prospects of our children. There are many children - might
:36:41. > :36:46.changes in East Belfast and I would challenge the politicians that the
:36:46. > :36:50.children in all of Northern Ireland deserve a first-class education. In
:36:50. > :36:57.many aspects, they are getting that but if you definitely need to be
:36:57. > :37:02.sorted out and using education as a political football is not right.
:37:02. > :37:07.Well, the Education Minister it joins us. We should stop using it
:37:07. > :37:15.as a political football. Is that likely? I you will agree with that.
:37:15. > :37:20.However, our society is run by it - - politicians. I have a duty to
:37:20. > :37:24.make decisions on policies which I believe our right and proper for
:37:24. > :37:28.Education and I believe we have done that over a number of years.
:37:28. > :37:35.But you can't get them through because of the unique way we are
:37:35. > :37:39.governed. Well we have made remarkable progress. The media
:37:39. > :37:46.concentrates on other issues but I eat the cat education in its
:37:46. > :37:52.totality. In inner-cities, we have improved the educational outcomes
:37:52. > :37:56.of young people but we have not done enough. We need to improve the
:37:56. > :38:01.education system and we need to challenge ourselves. What about
:38:01. > :38:05.secondary schools facing an enormous challenge and they have a
:38:05. > :38:09.half Bhagat -- far harder job because they are teaching a lot of
:38:09. > :38:15.less able children which is fundamentally unfair. Why cannot
:38:15. > :38:25.you change that? There is a changing -- challenge for education
:38:25. > :38:27.
:38:27. > :38:33.in the totality. Schools are educators. People who work in post
:38:33. > :38:42.primary schools are educators. A pincer -- principle of a school
:38:42. > :38:51.address tone school and said, not whether a child is clever but how
:38:51. > :38:54.the child is clever. Are you -- the duty is to be an educator and
:38:54. > :38:58.promote the growth of the person walking through your door and turn
:38:58. > :39:03.them into a valuable member of society. Evidence you quote says
:39:03. > :39:08.that social disadvantage is made work by -- worse by the selection
:39:08. > :39:14.system. That is a challenge for those whose promote academic
:39:14. > :39:18.selection. But your party changed that system and in put anything in
:39:18. > :39:26.place and now we have what a lot of people describe as a shambles.
:39:26. > :39:32.There is no shambles. There is a system in place. The vast majority
:39:32. > :39:37.of our post primary schools use a system which works. The vast
:39:37. > :39:44.majority are highly successful. The vast majority send people to you at
:39:44. > :39:48.-- universities and all take the same GCSE best macro and same A-
:39:48. > :39:54.levels and the same pathways to universities so let us dispel the
:39:54. > :39:58.myth that the only way you provide a good education is through the
:39:58. > :40:03.selection process. The vast majority of non-selection schools
:40:03. > :40:08.do it every day. The top schools in Northern Ireland keep their
:40:08. > :40:17.position saves by keeping the selection process. I would reject
:40:17. > :40:23.the "top" schools. You cannot measure the success of a school
:40:23. > :40:26.based on league tables only. You measure it on the value they add to
:40:26. > :40:32.the young 11 year-old who goes through the school doors and these
:40:32. > :40:37.at 16 or 18 as a young adult. about the 29,000 pupils who left
:40:37. > :40:46.last year without five GCSE qualifications. That is
:40:46. > :40:51.unacceptable. When we first... And it was 45% a few years ago and now
:40:51. > :40:57.it is 39%. There is a challenge to improve that and the Department of
:40:57. > :41:01.Education has taken measures to do that. We need to tackle education
:41:01. > :41:06.under -- and achievement in deprived communities. But we still
:41:06. > :41:10.have some selection. I am as opposed to selection and rejection
:41:11. > :41:15.of young children going to school. When you fundamentally oppose
:41:15. > :41:21.selection, how do you feel as the Minister knowing that you can't get
:41:21. > :41:28.it pushed through? I know that two of the other parties are opposed.
:41:28. > :41:33.And I also sit back the executive table no - my knowing the Catholic
:41:33. > :41:37.Church is opposed. The trade union it needs to stand up to this and so
:41:37. > :41:41.do civic society because many changes in our society have not
:41:41. > :41:46.always be delivered with politicians. Sometimes it can be
:41:46. > :41:49.argued that politicians have followed. I believe it is time for
:41:49. > :41:55.civic society to stand up and be counted because it is about
:41:55. > :41:59.improving the life of the individual and our society.
:41:59. > :42:07.civic society is completely divided on this. There are different voices
:42:07. > :42:11.on this. The two commentators you had on who were highly respected
:42:11. > :42:15.educators were divided. But there is a strong voice with regard to
:42:15. > :42:21.this both in education and the social level but we have to remove
:42:21. > :42:25.academic selection from our society to have a firm of playing field.
:42:26. > :42:31.No-one is talking about removing academic excellence. It seems you
:42:31. > :42:35.are prepared to accept the status quo go because are you campaigning
:42:35. > :42:40.vociferously in the Executive? said, I don't think we will change
:42:40. > :42:44.the DUP's mind in the current format. What is your target date?
:42:44. > :42:49.Do you think you will accept the status quo for five years or 10
:42:49. > :42:55.years? I have never accepted the status quo in my life and what I
:42:55. > :43:00.will not start now. I believe that civic society and those in civic
:43:00. > :43:05.society need to raise their voices who are opposed and stand-up.
:43:05. > :43:10.you are a minister and you are in charge? The current system will
:43:10. > :43:16.work against me but I will not accept it. I am putting a challenge
:43:16. > :43:23.out to society. Let us hear or your voices and let us change the minds
:43:23. > :43:28.of the politicians and the DUP. Democratic politics shouldn't be
:43:28. > :43:32.just left to those on the hill. Democratic politics is about the
:43:32. > :43:36.entire society involving itself and this is one issue where they should
:43:36. > :43:40.be involved. Scott Naismith you are perfectly placed to answer this.
:43:40. > :43:50.Should you be one of those principles campaigning for an end
:43:50. > :43:53.to selection.? No, I am a supporter of it. We are trying to provide
:43:53. > :43:57.opportunities for all pupils who come through the door and
:43:57. > :44:02.opportunities to add value to their lives and the education of all
:44:02. > :44:07.pupils. We say the best way to do that is to have pupils grouped
:44:07. > :44:11.together so we can target there needs and meet what the
:44:11. > :44:18.requirements are. Academics election allows for that. One thing
:44:18. > :44:21.I would like to challenge strongly is the idea of rejection. It is
:44:21. > :44:25.always talked about branding children as failures. That is not
:44:25. > :44:32.the case and no principle things a child he was unable to get through
:44:32. > :44:34.their door is a failure. The environment in their school and the
:44:34. > :44:41.teachers are trained and able to provide them with the best
:44:41. > :44:50.opportunities. But everyone is pretty much the same. What is your
:44:50. > :44:55.free school meals quotient, for example? There are differences.
:44:55. > :44:59.you have a socio-economic mix? Pupils from a good sizable number
:44:59. > :45:04.of people from varied backgrounds? We have people who come from
:45:05. > :45:08.different ethnic and religious backgrounds and town and country.
:45:09. > :45:13.We do work in order to encourage pupils from those backgrounds to
:45:13. > :45:20.consider applying to the college. That is a big barrier - not the
:45:20. > :45:30.academic selection but the self- limiting view that some people have,
:45:30. > :45:31.
:45:31. > :45:40.like, "that is not for us". They have to do the selection test.
:45:40. > :45:45.Improvements could be made their absolutely. What is the type of
:45:45. > :45:50.education? Grammar school teacher a curriculum at post primary school
:45:50. > :45:57.level. There is no different curriculum in grammar schools.
:45:58. > :46:02.Surely an educator has a challenge to build the young puzzled to be
:46:02. > :46:11.everything that young person can be across academia, vocation or a
:46:11. > :46:16.mixture of both. Scots teach the exact same curriculum as a non-
:46:16. > :46:20.selective school. What is the type of education? Perhaps that is a
:46:20. > :46:24.problem way you try to move basic - might was a system where you have
:46:24. > :46:30.the same curriculum at every single school and that is maybe not what
:46:30. > :46:34.every child needs. When you have selection at 11 or further on, the
:46:34. > :46:39.school can best tailor the provision to the pupils who come
:46:39. > :46:45.through the door. When it comes to the overview, the research says
:46:45. > :46:50.that a child from a poor background who is less able should be in with
:46:50. > :46:56.pupils who are more able because it brings everyone up. I don't agree.
:46:56. > :46:59.The research is contradictory. I could use one piece of research to
:46:59. > :47:03.support one I argument and you could find some to support another.
:47:03. > :47:09.It is wrong to say the evidence points in one direction. It does
:47:09. > :47:15.not. We had a large-scale study last year from the University of
:47:15. > :47:18.Buckingham Sher and they found that selective schools produce the best
:47:18. > :47:22.out comes because the reality is children have different abilities
:47:22. > :47:26.and the system should recognise that. I think they will -- there is
:47:26. > :47:32.a role for academic selection and we need to talk about how and when
:47:32. > :47:38.we do it. The 11 plus causes pain and grief but to remove something
:47:38. > :47:45.without having something to replace it is poor governance. That is
:47:45. > :47:50.incorrect. It isn't. We have a plethora of unrelated tests. As a
:47:50. > :47:55.parent and governor it is coat -- parents out there, I can tell you.
:47:55. > :47:58.People are dismayed by the system. They cannot understand how we have
:47:58. > :48:06.got here. If the Minister is pushing towards a comprehensive
:48:06. > :48:11.system, the comprehensive system in England failed. Two weeks ago,
:48:11. > :48:16.Baroness Shirley Williams at the University of Ulster, one of the
:48:16. > :48:21.architects of the comprehensive system, said it was a failure.
:48:21. > :48:26.not looking to establish a in -- and English all-Scottish system but
:48:26. > :48:29.a system that works for young people here. I'm sure there young
:48:29. > :48:37.people in your universities who have come from non- selective
:48:37. > :48:41.schools. Are the I'm sure there'll thousands. Of course. There are
:48:41. > :48:48.different abilities. They are nothing wrong with saying that.
:48:48. > :48:54.There is a difficulty in rejecting a child... No one is. 12,000
:48:54. > :48:59.children sat that test nasty and 8000 got into grammar school so by
:48:59. > :49:06.simple mathematics, 4000 children were rejected. Schools are
:49:06. > :49:12.rejecting the young people. We are the only paid -- place in Europe
:49:12. > :49:16.that selects is blatantly untrue. Look at the German system, they say
:49:16. > :49:24.to individuals throughout their prime the school, based on English
:49:24. > :49:34.and maths, we will decide on what the best route is for you. I am
:49:34. > :49:38.
:49:38. > :49:48.sorry, we are out of time. You will Apologies were at the heart of our
:49:48. > :49:50.
:49:50. > :49:54.political week. Here's Gareth Police admitted keeping more than
:49:54. > :49:58.60 body parts for use in investigations and said sorry.
:49:58. > :50:02.behalf of the police service and the Chief Constable, we apologise
:50:02. > :50:07.for the upset that may have been caused.
:50:07. > :50:11.The junior minister found himself out of bounds. He said sorry.
:50:12. > :50:21.was a clumsy use of a language which I regret using -- using.
:50:22. > :50:22.
:50:22. > :50:29.I'm sorry. The Attorney General drop his legal action. A disavowal
:50:29. > :50:36.of any attack on the integrity of our judges. Alex Attwood considered
:50:36. > :50:41.allowing 16 year-olds to get a provisional licence. The Balmoral
:50:41. > :50:45.show was staged for the last time on its present site which made some
:50:45. > :50:55.farmers sorrel -- sorry. I will miss it because it has been a hum
:50:55. > :50:59.
:50:59. > :51:03.What about a single test? Is that a bit of a compromise that would make
:51:03. > :51:07.things easier? You do not need academic selection for children to
:51:07. > :51:13.enter school or separate schools for children to be taught at. You
:51:13. > :51:18.can achieve academic excellence in a single school and you can achieve
:51:18. > :51:22.academic vocational axe -- excellence there. When will you get
:51:22. > :51:30.it for everybody then? Grammars schools refused to use the current