:00:38. > :00:41.Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:45.Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving
:00:46. > :00:49.the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?
:00:50. > :00:51.Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime
:00:52. > :01:04.The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending
:01:05. > :01:11.on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be
:01:12. > :01:16.Coming up here: 18 days in the job.
:01:17. > :01:20.The Education Minister on his plan for a single transfer test by 2018,
:01:21. > :01:22.plus the John Lewis saga at Sprucefield takes another twist.
:01:23. > :01:26.in London: Is the battle for join me to discuss it.
:01:27. > :01:29.in London: Is the battle for Richmond Park based on the skies? Or
:01:30. > :01:42.And with me - as always - and, no, these three aren't doing
:01:43. > :01:46.the Mannequin challenge - it's our dynamic, demonstrative,
:01:47. > :01:48.dazzling political panel - Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott
:01:49. > :01:51.and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:52. > :01:57.First this morning - Theresa May has said
:01:58. > :02:00."Brexit means Brexit" - but can the Prime Minister -
:02:01. > :02:02.who was on the Remain side of argument during the referendum
:02:03. > :02:10.Well, Leave-supporting Tory MPs are re-launching
:02:11. > :02:18.the "European Research Group" this morning to keep Mrs May's feet
:02:19. > :02:27.Are you worried that you cannot trust Theresa May until payment to
:02:28. > :02:33.deliver full Brexit was Magellan like I totally trust Theresa May,
:02:34. > :02:36.100% behind her. She has displayed a massive amount of commitment to
:02:37. > :02:40.making a success of Brexit for the country.
:02:41. > :02:44.We don't know that yet, because nothing has happened. Why, then,
:02:45. > :02:51.have you formed a pressure group? We were fed up with the negativity
:02:52. > :02:55.coming out around Brexit. I feel positive about the opportunities we
:02:56. > :02:58.face, and we are a group to provide suggestions. Who do you have in mind
:02:59. > :03:05.when you talk about negativity - the Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems,
:03:06. > :03:12.for example, from Labour MPs. This is a pressure group for leaving
:03:13. > :03:17.membership of the single market and customs union, correct? That is what
:03:18. > :03:20.we are proposing. It has a purpose other than just to combat
:03:21. > :03:24.negativity. When it comes to membership of the single market and
:03:25. > :03:29.the customs union, can you tell us what Government policy is towards
:03:30. > :03:33.both or either? Rightly, the Government hasn't made the position
:03:34. > :03:37.clear, and I think that is the right approach, because we don't want to
:03:38. > :03:45.review our negotiating hand. What we're saying... I'm not asking what
:03:46. > :03:47.you are saying. Can you tell us what Government policy is towards
:03:48. > :03:52.membership of these institutions? The Government wants to make sure
:03:53. > :03:56.British businesses have the right to trade with EU partners, to forge new
:03:57. > :04:03.trade deals with the rest of the world. We hope to Reza may speak at
:04:04. > :04:07.Mansion house this week. -- we had Theresa May speak at Mansion house
:04:08. > :04:13.this week. She has been clear, saying it was not a binary choice.
:04:14. > :04:16.And she's right. Let's run that tape, because I want to pick up on
:04:17. > :04:21.what she did say. This is what she had to say about the customs union
:04:22. > :04:26.at Prime Minister's Question Time. On the whole question of the customs
:04:27. > :04:29.union, trading relationships that we have with the European Union and
:04:30. > :04:34.other parts of the world once we have left the European Union, we are
:04:35. > :04:44.preparing carefully for the formal negotiations. We are preparing
:04:45. > :04:47.carefully for the formal negotiations. We want to ensure we
:04:48. > :04:53.have the best possible trading deal with the EU once we have left. Do
:04:54. > :04:57.you know what she means when she says being in the customs union is
:04:58. > :05:01.not a binary choice? I think she's right when she says that. At the
:05:02. > :05:05.moment, and you know this, as long as we are in the customs union, we
:05:06. > :05:09.cannot set our own tariffs or rules, cannot have a free trade agreement
:05:10. > :05:15.with the US or China. We need to leave a customs union to do that.
:05:16. > :05:19.Binary means either you are in or you are out, self which is it? We
:05:20. > :05:23.still want to trade with the EU, and I think we can have a free trade
:05:24. > :05:30.agreement with the EU. That is a separate matter, and it has to do
:05:31. > :05:34.with the single market. What about the customs union? We need to leave
:05:35. > :05:38.the customs union. We do it and properly. That is how to get the
:05:39. > :05:42.most out of this opportunity. Summit is a binary choice? The Prime
:05:43. > :05:47.Minister is right when she says it's not a binary choice. Both can't be
:05:48. > :05:55.right. We can leave the customs union, get their benefits, and have
:05:56. > :06:00.a free trade agreement with zero tariffs with the EU. So it is a
:06:01. > :06:03.binary choice an either be stale really. Yellow like I am saying the
:06:04. > :06:10.Prime Minister is right when she says it is not a binary choice. -- I
:06:11. > :06:18.am saying the Prime Minister is right. We need clarity. Youth had
:06:19. > :06:22.said -- you have said it is a binary choice. We need to leave the
:06:23. > :06:26.constraints of the customs union. It pushes up prices. The EU is not
:06:27. > :06:30.securing the right trade deals, and if we want to make the most of it,
:06:31. > :06:35.we need to get out there and get some deals going. Do you accept that
:06:36. > :06:40.if we remain in the customs union, we cannot do our own free-trade
:06:41. > :06:56.deals? Yellow right 100%. That is why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do
:06:57. > :07:00.you accept that if we leave the customs union but stay with
:07:01. > :07:03.substantial access, I don't say membership, but substantial access
:07:04. > :07:07.to the single market, that goods going from this country to the
:07:08. > :07:12.single market because we're no longer in the union will be subject
:07:13. > :07:20.to complicated rules of origin regulations, which could cost
:07:21. > :07:24.business ?13 billion a year? I would like to see a free-trade agreement
:07:25. > :07:28.between the UK and the EU. Look at the Canadian deal. I give you that,
:07:29. > :07:33.but if we're not in the customs union, things that we bring in on
:07:34. > :07:38.our own tariffs once we've left, we can't just export again willy-nilly
:07:39. > :07:41.to the EU. They will demand to see rules of origin. Norway has to do
:07:42. > :07:47.that at the moment and it is highly complicated expensive. I think if we
:07:48. > :07:50.agree a particular arrangement as part of this agreement with the EU,
:07:51. > :07:57.we can reach an agreement on that which sets a lower standard, which
:07:58. > :08:01.sets a different level of tariffs, which protects some of our
:08:02. > :08:06.industries. Let's suppose we have pretty much free trade with the EU
:08:07. > :08:10.but we are out of the customs union, and let's suppose that the European
:08:11. > :08:19.Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese whisky and we decide to have a 0%
:08:20. > :08:23.tariff - what then happens to the whisky that comes into Britain and
:08:24. > :08:28.goes on to the EU? The EU will not let that in. That will be part of
:08:29. > :08:35.the negotiation. I think there is a huge benefit for external operators.
:08:36. > :08:39.Every bottle of Japanese whisky, they will have to work out the rules
:08:40. > :08:44.of origin. There have been studies that show there is a potential for
:08:45. > :08:50.50% increase in global product if we leave. We're losing the benefits of
:08:51. > :08:51.free trade. I understand, I am asking for your particular view.
:08:52. > :09:00.Thank you for that. Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could
:09:01. > :09:05.not bring himself to say we would leave the customs union? It is
:09:06. > :09:10.messy. The reason there is this new group of Tory MPs signing up to a
:09:11. > :09:15.campaign to make sure we get a genuine Brexit is because there is
:09:16. > :09:20.this vacuum. It is being filled with all sorts of briefing from the other
:09:21. > :09:25.side. There is a real risk in the minds of Brexit supporting MPs that
:09:26. > :09:28.the remaining side are going to try to hijack the process, not only
:09:29. > :09:34.through the Supreme Court action, which I think most Brexit MPs seem
:09:35. > :09:39.to accept the appeal will fail, but further down the line, through
:09:40. > :09:43.amendments to the great repeal bill. This is a pressure group to try to
:09:44. > :09:47.hold the Prime Minister to account. There is plenty of pressure on the
:09:48. > :09:52.Prime Minister effectively to stay in the single market and the customs
:09:53. > :09:58.union, and if you do both of these things, de facto, you have stayed in
:09:59. > :10:01.the EU. She is in a difficult position because there is no good
:10:02. > :10:08.faith assumption about what Theresa May wants because she was a
:10:09. > :10:11.Remainer. There is all this talk about a transitional arrangement,
:10:12. > :10:17.but she can't sell that as someone who voted to remain. The way Isabel
:10:18. > :10:21.has characterised it is interesting. There is a betrayal narrative.
:10:22. > :10:25.Everyone is looking to say that she has betrayed the true Brexit. Since
:10:26. > :10:31.the Government cannot give a clear indication of what it once in terms
:10:32. > :10:35.of the customs union, which sets external tariffs, or the single
:10:36. > :10:38.market, which is the free movement of people, capital, goods and
:10:39. > :10:46.services, others are filling this vacuum. Right. The reasons they
:10:47. > :10:49.can't do this are, first, they don't know if they can get it or not. We
:10:50. > :10:56.saw this with the renegotiation the last Prime Minister. What are they
:10:57. > :11:06.hoping to get? The world on a stick, to get cake and eat it. You go into
:11:07. > :11:10.a negotiation saying, let's see what we can get in total. Are they going
:11:11. > :11:14.to ask the membership of the single market? Yellow I think they will ask
:11:15. > :11:27.for a free trade agreement involving everything. You can demand what you
:11:28. > :11:33.want. The question is, do they stand a cat's chance in hell of getting
:11:34. > :11:38.it? They don't know. Welcome back. We will be back, believe me. It is
:11:39. > :11:43.150 day since we found out the UK had voted to leave the EU, but as we
:11:44. > :11:48.have heard, remain and leave campaigners continue to battle about
:11:49. > :11:55.what type of relationship we should have with the EU after exit.
:11:56. > :11:57.Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU
:11:58. > :11:58.also means quitting the
:11:59. > :12:01.Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free
:12:02. > :12:02.movement of goods, services, capital and people.
:12:03. > :12:04.They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting
:12:05. > :12:06.politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during
:12:07. > :12:09.Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost
:12:10. > :12:18.certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.
:12:19. > :12:23.When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay
:12:24. > :12:26."No, we should be outside the Single Market."
:12:27. > :12:29.And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael
:12:30. > :12:31.Gove was absolutely right to say the UK
:12:32. > :12:42.They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before
:12:43. > :12:45.the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the
:12:46. > :12:48.Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving
:12:49. > :12:51.the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:12:52. > :12:53.Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,
:12:54. > :13:00.once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually
:13:01. > :13:05.And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said
:13:06. > :13:08.that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some
:13:09. > :13:12.But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what
:13:13. > :13:18.To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're
:13:19. > :13:21.joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain
:13:22. > :13:35.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave
:13:36. > :13:38.campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many
:13:39. > :13:46.were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was
:13:47. > :13:50.made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12
:13:51. > :13:54.statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the
:13:55. > :13:59.referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.
:14:00. > :14:02.Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian
:14:03. > :14:08.model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went
:14:09. > :14:11.out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading
:14:12. > :14:15.arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the
:14:16. > :14:20.Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade
:14:21. > :14:23.agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the
:14:24. > :14:28.12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself,
:14:29. > :14:33.when people were giving really serious thought to such matters? The
:14:34. > :14:36.Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters.
:14:37. > :14:41.They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.
:14:42. > :14:45.But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should
:14:46. > :14:50.stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked
:14:51. > :14:56.about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from
:14:57. > :14:59.Nigel Farage dates back to 2009, when we didn't even know if we would
:15:00. > :15:04.have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back
:15:05. > :15:08.to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point
:15:09. > :15:14.stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.
:15:15. > :15:19.Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave
:15:20. > :15:22.movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place
:15:23. > :15:26.in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave
:15:27. > :15:30.campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have
:15:31. > :15:33.highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners
:15:34. > :15:39.over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments
:15:40. > :15:45.accurately? I don't think in a 92nd video you can talk about the full
:15:46. > :15:50.thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade
:15:51. > :15:57.agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.
:15:58. > :15:59.There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the
:16:00. > :16:01.clip you used on Owen Paterson first.
:16:02. > :16:08.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:09. > :16:12.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:13. > :16:14.It's not the EU which is
:16:15. > :16:17.a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.
:16:18. > :16:20.It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on
:16:21. > :16:23.I mean, are we really suggesting that the
:16:24. > :16:26.economy in the world is not going to come to come
:16:27. > :16:28.to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?
:16:29. > :16:30.Are we going to be like Sudan and North
:16:31. > :16:34.It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a
:16:35. > :16:48.What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that
:16:49. > :16:52.we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country
:16:53. > :16:55.in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our
:16:56. > :16:59.trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David
:17:00. > :17:03.Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box
:17:04. > :17:06.recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the
:17:07. > :17:11.Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of
:17:12. > :17:12.course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't
:17:13. > :17:31.think he was about axis, he is talking
:17:32. > :17:33.about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks
:17:34. > :17:36.about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap
:17:37. > :17:39.off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's
:17:40. > :17:41.the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and
:17:42. > :17:44.Patterson is an example of this, saying we can trade as we do now,
:17:45. > :17:46.the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and
:17:47. > :17:48.tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the
:17:49. > :17:50.views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.
:17:51. > :17:53.When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that
:17:54. > :17:55.it might be initially attractive for some business people.
:17:56. > :17:59.So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in
:18:00. > :18:03.the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian
:18:04. > :18:06.option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive
:18:07. > :18:08.for some business people. But then again for voters
:18:09. > :18:11.who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,
:18:12. > :18:14.they will be very concerned that it allows free movement
:18:15. > :18:26.of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.
:18:27. > :18:28.He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real
:18:29. > :18:33.problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.
:18:34. > :18:36.But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them
:18:37. > :18:40.accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what
:18:41. > :18:44.we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying
:18:45. > :18:48.the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It
:18:49. > :18:55.might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free
:18:56. > :18:59.movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are
:19:00. > :19:02.saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are
:19:03. > :19:05.distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.
:19:06. > :19:07.On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:19:08. > :19:15.This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn't
:19:16. > :19:16.run. There is absolutely
:19:17. > :19:18.nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving
:19:19. > :19:19.the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part
:19:20. > :19:23.of the European Economic Area and we should use our
:19:24. > :19:32.membership of the EEA as a holding position from which
:19:33. > :19:35.we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export
:19:36. > :19:38.market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,
:19:39. > :19:48.if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we
:19:49. > :19:53.should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA
:19:54. > :20:03.as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip
:20:04. > :20:07.is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a
:20:08. > :20:10.distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a
:20:11. > :20:13.definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,
:20:14. > :20:18.for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go
:20:19. > :20:21.on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he
:20:22. > :20:25.does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't
:20:26. > :20:28.let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he
:20:29. > :20:32.wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would
:20:33. > :20:36.be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea
:20:37. > :20:39.now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the
:20:40. > :20:43.Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all
:20:44. > :20:48.had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the
:20:49. > :20:52.full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out
:20:53. > :20:55.there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave
:20:56. > :20:59.campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout
:21:00. > :21:03.the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market
:21:04. > :21:07.is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the
:21:08. > :21:11.montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime
:21:12. > :21:14.Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being
:21:15. > :21:17.categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave
:21:18. > :21:21.membership of the Single Market. What bit of that didn't you
:21:22. > :21:24.understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to
:21:25. > :21:30.leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other
:21:31. > :21:35.promises they made, whether ?350 million for the NHS, whether a VAT
:21:36. > :21:38.cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of
:21:39. > :21:42.any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan
:21:43. > :21:47.has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market. You
:21:48. > :21:49.spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting
:21:50. > :21:52.and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen
:21:53. > :21:56.this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is
:21:57. > :21:59.perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have
:22:00. > :22:03.a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.
:22:04. > :22:06.That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to
:22:07. > :22:10.stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag
:22:11. > :22:13.us out of our biggest trading partner.
:22:14. > :22:15.Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up
:22:16. > :22:17.their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week
:22:18. > :22:20.in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest
:22:21. > :22:22.this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -
:22:23. > :22:25.stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from
:22:26. > :22:28.farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,
:22:29. > :22:43.split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're
:22:44. > :22:53.having their second Watch as the alpha male,
:22:54. > :23:01.the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,
:23:02. > :23:03.the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha
:23:04. > :23:06.female Diane James. The European Parliament
:23:07. > :23:20.in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible
:23:21. > :23:23.future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,
:23:24. > :23:25.has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague
:23:26. > :23:27.during a meeting. A few days later he is
:23:28. > :23:30.out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my
:23:31. > :23:34.application to become I'm actually withdrawing
:23:35. > :23:37.myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party?
:23:38. > :23:43.I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document
:23:44. > :23:47.suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political
:23:48. > :23:52.campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes
:23:53. > :23:58.over the leadership of the pack. One contender is Suzanne Evans,
:23:59. > :24:01.a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for
:24:02. > :24:10.disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,
:24:11. > :24:13.an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side
:24:14. > :24:19.as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast
:24:20. > :24:21.in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told
:24:22. > :24:24.that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,
:24:25. > :24:29.a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance
:24:30. > :24:32.to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated
:24:33. > :24:46.passionate supporters who feel like they're not really
:24:47. > :24:48.being listened to and are not even Typically what happens
:24:49. > :24:51.is they just basically sit there until six months before
:24:52. > :24:54.a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out
:24:55. > :24:57.and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel
:24:58. > :24:59.there is not an adequate flow of communication
:25:00. > :25:01.up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in
:25:02. > :25:10.any hustings? He left a hustings saying
:25:11. > :25:13.the contest was an establishment coronation and has
:25:14. > :25:15.made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty
:25:16. > :25:18.for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear
:25:19. > :25:20.will amongst the offences should be dealt with
:25:21. > :25:24.decisively. But again, on an issue like that,
:25:25. > :25:26.that is something that Our members are not
:25:27. > :25:32.going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that
:25:33. > :25:34.I would have any authority to have the say and determine
:25:35. > :25:36.the future What method would you use
:25:37. > :25:40.for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could
:25:41. > :25:42.be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online
:25:43. > :25:46.poll about whether you use the electric chair,
:25:47. > :25:52.or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made
:25:53. > :25:54.in favour of This is such a small aspect
:25:55. > :25:59.of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media
:26:00. > :26:01.they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant
:26:02. > :26:07.details. This is one vote that
:26:08. > :26:09.the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do
:26:10. > :26:13.in this party is to revolutionise the democratic
:26:14. > :26:16.process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should
:26:17. > :26:19.be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip
:26:20. > :26:22.would win at Meanwhile, in New York,
:26:23. > :26:30.on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage
:26:31. > :26:39.of the President-elect, a man he has described as
:26:40. > :26:41.a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some
:26:42. > :26:44.in this leadership contest. There are also elections
:26:45. > :26:46.to the party's National Executive Committee, a body
:26:47. > :26:49.that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two
:26:50. > :27:04.of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -
:27:05. > :27:14.Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving
:27:15. > :27:17.each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be
:27:18. > :27:20.the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.
:27:21. > :27:23.Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,
:27:24. > :27:27.forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it
:27:28. > :27:30.really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win
:27:31. > :27:34.seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we
:27:35. > :27:54.need to attract more women, more ethnic
:27:55. > :27:57.minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their
:27:58. > :28:00.party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my
:28:01. > :28:02.leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical
:28:03. > :28:04.party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne
:28:05. > :28:07.Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.
:28:08. > :28:09.I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and
:28:10. > :28:12.prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I
:28:13. > :28:15.am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done
:28:16. > :28:17.every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,
:28:18. > :28:20.whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past
:28:21. > :28:22.six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour
:28:23. > :28:26.constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of
:28:27. > :28:29.working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet
:28:30. > :28:36.are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a
:28:37. > :28:40.mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to
:28:41. > :28:44.realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get
:28:45. > :28:47.together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles
:28:48. > :28:52.within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and
:28:53. > :28:56.whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion
:28:57. > :29:00.polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on
:29:01. > :29:04.the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a
:29:05. > :29:07.grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in
:29:08. > :29:11.the party as well and also a background that I think means I can
:29:12. > :29:21.help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity
:29:22. > :29:24.faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.
:29:25. > :29:26.There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee
:29:27. > :29:29.going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have
:29:30. > :29:32.ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day, I
:29:33. > :29:35.think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more
:29:36. > :29:40.open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive
:29:41. > :29:43.Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to
:29:44. > :29:46.be elected reasonably since 2010 giving the members better
:29:47. > :29:50.communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a
:29:51. > :29:55.clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,
:29:56. > :29:59.Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person
:30:00. > :30:02.who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show
:30:03. > :30:09.you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with
:30:10. > :30:12.President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's
:30:13. > :30:16.decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr
:30:17. > :30:22.Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.
:30:23. > :30:25.I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is
:30:26. > :30:30.President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the
:30:31. > :30:33.campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,
:30:34. > :30:37.pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put
:30:38. > :30:43.the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne
:30:44. > :30:47.Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I
:30:48. > :30:51.said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest. The
:30:52. > :30:55.better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is
:30:56. > :31:00.quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr
:31:01. > :31:05.Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have
:31:06. > :31:09.that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not
:31:10. > :31:12.out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is
:31:13. > :31:18.according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let
:31:19. > :31:21.me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself
:31:22. > :31:25.in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country
:31:26. > :31:26.ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in
:31:27. > :31:36.2020. The other thing your leader has in
:31:37. > :31:43.common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do
:31:44. > :31:50.you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and
:31:51. > :31:54.Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is
:31:55. > :31:59.pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle
:32:00. > :32:05.East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to
:32:06. > :32:10.bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the
:32:11. > :32:14.conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American
:32:15. > :32:21.line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is
:32:22. > :32:24.affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these
:32:25. > :32:33.people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial
:32:34. > :32:36.breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage
:32:37. > :32:41.unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do
:32:42. > :32:45.you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I
:32:46. > :32:50.was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,
:32:51. > :32:53.and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were
:32:54. > :32:57.already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth
:32:58. > :32:59.that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control
:33:00. > :33:08.immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering
:33:09. > :33:12.voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it
:33:13. > :33:16.was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed
:33:17. > :33:20.to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.
:33:21. > :33:27.People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip
:33:28. > :33:34.shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you
:33:35. > :33:37.different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone
:33:38. > :33:40.for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from
:33:41. > :33:47.the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns,
:33:48. > :33:55.with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa
:33:56. > :33:58.into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,
:33:59. > :34:03.particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I
:34:04. > :34:09.want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the
:34:10. > :34:13.low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national
:34:14. > :34:17.anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks
:34:18. > :34:21.anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John
:34:22. > :34:25.McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for
:34:26. > :34:30.working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.
:34:31. > :34:36.It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I
:34:37. > :34:40.first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic
:34:41. > :34:44.opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at
:34:45. > :34:46.me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have
:34:47. > :34:53.seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death
:34:54. > :34:57.penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more
:34:58. > :35:01.money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to
:35:02. > :35:11.fund it adequately, and it hasn't been to date. We promised in our
:35:12. > :35:15.manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come
:35:16. > :35:20.from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being
:35:21. > :35:26.taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the
:35:27. > :35:29.money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because
:35:30. > :35:34.that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on
:35:35. > :35:39.management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,
:35:40. > :35:44.foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership
:35:45. > :35:47.fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It
:35:48. > :35:54.cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are
:35:55. > :36:01.not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you
:36:02. > :36:06.get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.
:36:07. > :36:10.Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25
:36:11. > :36:15.million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer
:36:16. > :36:20.than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away
:36:21. > :36:35.from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?
:36:36. > :36:43.Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.
:36:44. > :36:48.Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you
:36:49. > :36:52.It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:36:53. > :36:55.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:36:56. > :37:04.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:37:05. > :37:06.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.
:37:07. > :37:08.It was the department the DUP told voters it
:37:09. > :37:12.Now, six months on, we'll hear from the Education Minister,
:37:13. > :37:15.Peter Weir, on his plans for dealing with the unregulated transfer tests,
:37:16. > :37:17.improving teaching standards and resolving an industrial
:37:18. > :37:25.Plus, the long-running battle to attract John Lewis to Sprucefield
:37:26. > :37:28.takes a step forward as the High Court rules
:37:29. > :37:30.a previous planning policy had been adopted unlawfully.
:37:31. > :37:32.And with their thoughts on all of that and more,
:37:33. > :37:34.my guests of the day are Patricia MacBride
:37:35. > :37:44.Like academic selection or loath it, the Department for Education
:37:45. > :37:48.has begun a formal process to find a common transfer test for children
:37:49. > :37:54.The move has been welcomed by some, while there have also been calls
:37:55. > :37:59.for a root and branch reform of our education system and not just
:38:00. > :38:01.what those critics see as nothing more than the application
:38:02. > :38:04.The Education Minister, Peter Weir, is with me now.
:38:05. > :38:08.Very senior figures in your party - Peter Robinson, Mervyn Storey
:38:09. > :38:10.and Arlene Foster - were determined to achieve a single
:38:11. > :38:21.Why do you think Professor Peter Tymms can deliver it for you?
:38:22. > :38:27.I do not think we have had a chance up until now. The approach I am
:38:28. > :38:31.taking is very practical and sensible, which is recognition that
:38:32. > :38:33.whilst I am a supporter of academic selection, whether you like it or
:38:34. > :38:37.above that, it is here to stay. There is a strong demand. Secondly,
:38:38. > :38:41.there will not be a political consensus around that. What we are
:38:42. > :38:43.trying to do is engage to Professor Tim is with the two organisations
:38:44. > :39:02.that are setting the test, to see if we can get a common approach between
:39:03. > :39:05.them and reach a solution so that there can be agreement between them
:39:06. > :39:07.on a common test. But that has been very difficult to achieve in the
:39:08. > :39:09.past because previous ministers have discussed that an previous DUP gears
:39:10. > :39:11.of the Department. And in terms of particularly education ministers,
:39:12. > :39:13.previously they happy nostalgia academic selection, so any
:39:14. > :39:15.opportunity for them to reach an agreement with organisation setting
:39:16. > :39:18.the tests would be difficult. There are difficulties out there, strong
:39:19. > :39:22.views held even within the organisations that are setting the
:39:23. > :39:25.tests, but I think this is something that is worthwhile trying. Trying to
:39:26. > :39:28.do the best we can to ensure that we did the best possible system that
:39:29. > :39:32.began in the practical circumstances for all of our young people and
:39:33. > :39:37.parents in schools. Who pays for it? That is one of the differences. The
:39:38. > :39:41.GL assessment is free, parents pay for the HUD test. You're actually
:39:42. > :39:46.saying what are the solutions before we have started the conversation.
:39:47. > :39:50.That is one of the differences between the two organisations. That
:39:51. > :39:53.has been discussed... And with respect, there has never been
:39:54. > :39:57.anything of this nature in an attempt to tackle it in this way
:39:58. > :40:00.before. Again, particularly from a departmental point of view, up until
:40:01. > :40:06.now, we have had ministers opposed to academic selection. They will not
:40:07. > :40:09.get that level of engagement with the organisations involved. We are
:40:10. > :40:14.trying to say, through Professor Timms, whether we can do that
:40:15. > :40:18.discussion and get that agreement. Would your department before it if
:40:19. > :40:25.it had to be paid for? Would they take on cost? -- pay for it. We are
:40:26. > :40:30.looking to prejudge outcomes. Have you ruled it out? I am not ruling
:40:31. > :40:35.anything in or out. From that point of view, I want to see engagement
:40:36. > :40:41.with the two organisations, to see if we can reach a common goal within
:40:42. > :40:47.them. Indeed, ever reach agreement, I think the Department will do all
:40:48. > :40:50.it can to facilitate that. The children's commissioner says a root
:40:51. > :40:54.and branch reform is necessary. Not what she has called a further
:40:55. > :40:56.sticking plaster. She says it is extremely disappointing that the
:40:57. > :41:00.vision for education in Northern Ireland is firmly fixed on the
:41:01. > :41:05.perpetuation of what she called academic segregation. In saying
:41:06. > :41:09.that, she's certainly not lone voice. Academic selection, there's
:41:10. > :41:11.been a division of opinion on that for many years. My view is that it
:41:12. > :41:14.enhances chances because the alternative to having it is
:41:15. > :41:18.selection purely by money. If you take a look at what happens in
:41:19. > :41:22.England, we have very much a private school system, public school system
:41:23. > :41:26.which essentially differentiates on the grounds of those who can afford
:41:27. > :41:29.big fees to get the best possible education. The charges but this
:41:30. > :41:33.system perpetuates privilege as well. The choice, the alternative,
:41:34. > :41:38.is something a lot worse, something that would make the situation a lot
:41:39. > :41:43.worse, because essentially it would have a much greater level of
:41:44. > :41:46.segregation on the basis of ability today. Our system produces the
:41:47. > :41:49.highest results in terms of the United Kingdom. It has the greatest
:41:50. > :41:54.level of social mobility. There is a lot of things that need to happen.
:41:55. > :42:00.The other things in terms of issues around underachievement, the focus
:42:01. > :42:03.constantly on, at times, the test at 11, is that we need to get early
:42:04. > :42:06.intervention to try to improve the lives of young children. You have
:42:07. > :42:12.set yourself a pretty tight timescale. You're hoping there would
:42:13. > :42:16.be a unified test by autumn 2018. That is within two years, so
:42:17. > :42:19.presumably in one year's time, you would need to have some kind of
:42:20. > :42:25.solution working its way through. How optimistic are you? That that is
:42:26. > :42:28.achievable? I think it is achievable, certainly. Whether it
:42:29. > :42:33.will be achievable is ultimately up to whether we can get agreement
:42:34. > :42:39.between the organisations. We will get that teased out in the weeks to
:42:40. > :42:43.come. We do not want talks about talks for a period of time, we need
:42:44. > :42:47.something focus. That is why there has been a time frame indicated as
:42:48. > :42:50.part of this. Ultimately, it is about bridging the gaps between the
:42:51. > :42:53.two organisations in terms of where they are on a range of issues. The
:42:54. > :42:56.time frame of something which will flow into that it we reach that
:42:57. > :42:59.point. You have got a lot going on at the moment in your department,
:43:00. > :43:05.not least the prospect of strike action by teachers at the end of
:43:06. > :43:08.this month. NASUWT planning a straight for November 30 in skilled
:43:09. > :43:14.in Belfast and Newton Abbot. Is there any possibility that there
:43:15. > :43:15.could be some resolution between the departments and teachers in
:43:16. > :43:20.particular to call that strike action fund deal these issues? I
:43:21. > :43:25.would like to see them suspend action and... They would like to see
:43:26. > :43:31.you taking the command seriously. It about equity, but what is not
:43:32. > :43:37.actually recognises that within the settlement, there has been
:43:38. > :43:41.incremental pay increase of which are 1.1% on the pay bill.
:43:42. > :43:45.Incremental pay was actually, automatic, stalked in England in
:43:46. > :43:49.2013. It equity is to happen, it has got to happen across the board. Some
:43:50. > :43:55.teachers who love God increment, lots will not. Every teacher below
:43:56. > :43:58.?37,500 will of God increment. They will see a rise in their salary in
:43:59. > :44:04.relation to that. We are against a very tight budget. If we would like
:44:05. > :44:06.to see... I would like across a range of things to be spending more
:44:07. > :44:10.money. I would like to see better paid on that basis. But there is a
:44:11. > :44:13.tight budget that is there and we have also got to deal with this in
:44:14. > :44:18.the reality of the situation. Across the last two matches, a net increase
:44:19. > :44:22.in terms of pay is over 2%. That compares in a very similar position
:44:23. > :44:29.to what has happened elsewhere. Is there anything you can do, anything,
:44:30. > :44:34.any movement you can deliver that will call the strike action of? They
:44:35. > :44:38.were calling for 13% pay increase, they have also got to get into a
:44:39. > :44:41.realistic vision in relation to that. We need to sit down and see
:44:42. > :44:46.what we can do in terms of the pay across the remainder of the Assembly
:44:47. > :44:50.term in 2017, onwards. So there is room for manoeuvre? There is room as
:44:51. > :44:54.we move forward in the future, but at present there is no more money.
:44:55. > :44:57.There is not money in a city within the department ready to be paid to
:44:58. > :45:00.teachers. There has got to be realism in that and the real ID is
:45:01. > :45:05.that if we inject additional cost into the system, this is simply
:45:06. > :45:08.going to with two redundancies. There is no connection between your
:45:09. > :45:13.position on teacher's Bay and the most recent Chief Inspector of
:45:14. > :45:18.skills' report sent to many people here are not getting a good enough
:45:19. > :45:21.education? Do not forget, that essentially was completed earlier on
:45:22. > :45:25.in 2016, before there was even any decision made on teacher pay in
:45:26. > :45:29.relation to that. I think you can also cherry-pick a lot about out of
:45:30. > :45:32.that report, because there is also a lot to celebrate within that. We
:45:33. > :45:35.need to focus on where we can make the intervention. That is why we
:45:36. > :45:40.need are planning to ensure we have the best use of resources and the
:45:41. > :45:43.most effective education system. And headteachers, if you want an
:45:44. > :45:47.improved education system, and I am assuming you do, you have got to
:45:48. > :45:52.fund it properly. And I will fund to the maximum extent to which there is
:45:53. > :45:55.money available. Let us remember, across-the-board, from the
:45:56. > :45:58.Executive, we are in a very tight financial position. Neither I nor
:45:59. > :46:01.the Executive could plug money out of there. We have to make best
:46:02. > :46:05.possible use of resources, actually delivering things any more effective
:46:06. > :46:08.and efficient manner. That is why I think we need to embrace area
:46:09. > :46:11.planning, to ensure that we have... So maybe you need to take a
:46:12. > :46:15.difficult decision to close the more skills? You don't want to talk about
:46:16. > :46:22.it but... With respect, we have actually started a process of a new
:46:23. > :46:25.area plan which has been put out for consultation. I indicated the status
:46:26. > :46:31.quo in terms of schools is not one that can be sustainable. In reality,
:46:32. > :46:33.tough decisions will need to be made and I am prepared to make them.
:46:34. > :46:36.Let's see what my guests of the day, Patricia MacBride
:46:37. > :46:40.Whether you like academic selection as a policy or not,
:46:41. > :46:42.do you accept that the Minister is committed to
:46:43. > :46:54.Well, I am concerned that the Minister is committed to indulge in
:46:55. > :46:59.my private companies to run a transfer test is not public demand
:47:00. > :47:04.for. He says there is clear public demand. There is not. People are
:47:05. > :47:07.being forced into a choice. Parents are being forced to do it because
:47:08. > :47:10.they do not have a choice if they want to get their children into
:47:11. > :47:13.certain skills in certain areas. The reality around academic selection is
:47:14. > :47:17.regardless of what second level schools you go to, European vote the
:47:18. > :47:21.same curriculum. There is not a huge difference. The Minister needs to be
:47:22. > :47:26.focusing on looking up what he said was the academic underachievement.
:47:27. > :47:30.-- whatever second level school you go to, you are given the same
:47:31. > :47:34.curriculum. The focus of the Department for Education needs to be
:47:35. > :47:39.on academic underachievement. This is a very ideological polarised
:47:40. > :47:42.argument. The DUP has been signalling for a decade that it is
:47:43. > :47:45.prepared to consider a practical compromise. In getting this
:47:46. > :47:48.department to the DUP, Sinn Fein signal it would go along with
:47:49. > :47:51.whatever came up. I know both parties have not agreed on a
:47:52. > :47:57.compromise, but they have clearly agreed to compromise. That is the
:47:58. > :48:00.political context we earn. Reports that are being commissioned will be
:48:01. > :48:04.in fact taken seriously and treated objectively. If you want to
:48:05. > :48:08.contribute to that, it is time to abandon ideological positions and
:48:09. > :48:11.consider what can be done within the framework of this very, very
:48:12. > :48:15.convoluted skills as we have. It would be very difficult to
:48:16. > :48:20.streamline into an ideological leap pure position, even if everyone was
:48:21. > :48:22.committed. Patricia's point is that it is that children who are the
:48:23. > :48:30.underachievers in the current system you need to be more gentle and this
:48:31. > :48:32.debate. With respect... Actually, this whole conversation has been
:48:33. > :48:38.about the process of assessment and achieving the best for those who are
:48:39. > :48:44.the best, but what about those involved are the gaps? Exams in --
:48:45. > :48:48.exam results and Ireland are the best in the UK, and also I would
:48:49. > :48:51.take issue with what Patricia said in terms of popularity in relation
:48:52. > :48:54.to this. There are more people doing the test mode and was the case
:48:55. > :49:00.whenever they left... Because they want their children to go to school,
:49:01. > :49:05.they have to do it. Maybe they want to go to a post at risk that isn't
:49:06. > :49:07.selected by a test. But let me deal with the points in terms of
:49:08. > :49:10.underachievers. There is a high-level focus on that and to some
:49:11. > :49:14.extent people will fund its present this as an either or. Look, quite
:49:15. > :49:18.frankly there is a wide range of issues I am dealing with day-to-day.
:49:19. > :49:22.That is why last week in terms of underachievement and signalled the
:49:23. > :49:28.success of nitrogen and wanted to see them expanded. But here is a
:49:29. > :49:33.line from your pristine. -- the success of nurturing units. The aim
:49:34. > :49:36.is to strengthen the academic process to enable it to deliver high
:49:37. > :49:39.quality assessment for everyone. That does not say anything about the
:49:40. > :49:43.children who do not do it and to suffer under the current system. But
:49:44. > :49:46.respectively, you're taking a line out of one statement in relation to
:49:47. > :49:53.the transfer test process. What I am saying is there is a line, wide
:49:54. > :49:56.range of issues I am focused on, a lot of which is dealing with
:49:57. > :49:59.underachievement, dealing with that early intervention. If we have not
:50:00. > :50:02.actually corrected the underachievement by the time we get
:50:03. > :50:07.to 11 years old, on a lot of occasions we have missed the vote.
:50:08. > :50:09.We need to ensure a lot of that happens before the child goes
:50:10. > :50:11.through the gates in primary one. Let's pause for a moment to take
:50:12. > :50:15.a look back at the political week in 60 seconds -
:50:16. > :50:30.with Mark Devenport. Should he stay or should he go? The
:50:31. > :50:33.Deputy First Minister thinks it is time this man considered his
:50:34. > :50:38.position at Charter NI. Andy First Minister? How would I get involved
:50:39. > :50:43.in employability issues in an organisation called Charter NI?
:50:44. > :50:48.People stuck in traffic are crying out for the York Street Interchange,
:50:49. > :50:54.but the infrastructure ministers to administer's to do last is a long
:50:55. > :50:59.one. Various bypasses and now a water bridge... On the run from a
:51:00. > :51:02.fresh start, a former culture on the consultative group on the past
:51:03. > :51:05.challenges the Executive to get moving on legacy. It is time at the
:51:06. > :51:09.two parties went together to this Government and as a test of this,
:51:10. > :51:14.let's get past this and over this because I think it is not running
:51:15. > :51:22.well within the victim community. And it seems every day if this could
:51:23. > :51:29.be in the chamber. HE SPEAKS IRISH
:51:30. > :51:32.HE CORRECTS THEM My Irish is not as good as Her
:51:33. > :51:38.Majesty The Queen's. How did that get in there? !
:51:39. > :51:41.It's a saga which has run for more than ten years -
:51:42. > :51:42.the further expansion of the Sprucefied shopping centre
:51:43. > :51:45.and the prospect of a John Lewis store opening there.
:51:46. > :51:47.Now the High Court has set aside planning restrictions covering
:51:48. > :51:50.the site near Lisburn which were introduced as part of
:51:51. > :51:52.the Belfast Metropolitian Area Plan by the former Environment Minister,
:51:53. > :51:55.Mark Durkan, but challenged by the DUP - and found by the court
:51:56. > :51:58.Joining me are two former Environment Ministers -
:51:59. > :52:09.Hello to you both. Thank you for joining us. Edwin Poots first of
:52:10. > :52:14.all, why is the DUP happy to ignore the policy of town centre first to
:52:15. > :52:19.back this expansion? Well, it has always been indicated from John
:52:20. > :52:22.Lewis, who incidentally are in town centres across the United Kingdom,
:52:23. > :52:26.that feasibly could only come to Northern Ireland on the basis that
:52:27. > :52:32.they come to his Bristol centre. So it is either John Lewis with 1000
:52:33. > :52:35.jobs go with it or we reject it, as has been the case for the past ten
:52:36. > :52:39.years, and we have lost out to the Internet and to Dublin as a
:52:40. > :52:45.consequence. John Lewis, in recent years, has said it favours the town
:52:46. > :52:49.centre model. Its most recent openings have been there. So that
:52:50. > :52:52.policy has changed?, yes, so we need to take over more seriously when
:52:53. > :52:56.they say that in Northern Ireland the need to come to Bristol. John
:52:57. > :52:59.Lewis says it has no problems to come to Northern at Ireland all.
:53:00. > :53:03.Will see over the course of the next number of weeks and months, I would
:53:04. > :53:07.be surprised if there is not a planning application lodged if we
:53:08. > :53:17.can proceed with this. So this is pure parish pump from your point of
:53:18. > :53:19.view? This is all about your constituency trumping everything
:53:20. > :53:21.else? Absolutely not. There is 1000 jobs available for people who will
:53:22. > :53:26.come from far beyond my constituency. He is -- the result of
:53:27. > :53:28.the alternative that would also come to Northern Ireland, many town
:53:29. > :53:32.centres across Northern Ireland, so there is the potential for many more
:53:33. > :53:35.good quality jobs and those people on the stores of John Lewis and we
:53:36. > :53:40.drove as they come here. They will show the dividends of the profits
:53:41. > :53:44.that are made. OK, Alex Attwood, you were the Minister at the time when
:53:45. > :53:50.you developed the town centre first policy, has that now been completely
:53:51. > :53:53.satisfied? Well, I think this Government needs to be very careful
:53:54. > :53:58.it does not cut off its nose to spite its face. If John Lewis cause
:53:59. > :54:04.to spruce killed, it will not just be Belfast that is hurt, it will be
:54:05. > :54:10.Ballina, Bangor, Banbridge, Lisburn city, you are. All the evidence, and
:54:11. > :54:15.this has been proven beyond doubt, that John Lewis in Sprucefield would
:54:16. > :54:17.have huge impact upon all of our town and city centres, and therefore
:54:18. > :54:22.this Government needs to be very careful that it is Russia's John
:54:23. > :54:26.Lewis into Sprucefield, it is hurting and damaging all of those of
:54:27. > :54:30.our town and city centres. -- if it Russia's John Lewis. How would it
:54:31. > :54:34.damage those towns any more than John Lewis in Belfast? Because when
:54:35. > :54:39.I was minister we did a survey. The best I've ever done in terms of
:54:40. > :54:43.retail impact at John Lewis. It shows all of the impacts of
:54:44. > :54:46.Sprucefield. So let's try to protect all of our town and city centres,
:54:47. > :54:51.including Belfast, because that is our premier city. By sticking
:54:52. > :54:57.rigidly to the town centre first policy? I think we should. Of
:54:58. > :55:05.course, you're a Belfast are presented in. We made decisions that
:55:06. > :55:09.predicted retail in Derry, and in Belfast and in many other cities
:55:10. > :55:13.during her time. We tried to reconfigure retail town policy back
:55:14. > :55:17.to the town and city centres and giving that John Lewis have been so
:55:18. > :55:20.quiet about Sprucefield in recent times, it does indicate what you are
:55:21. > :55:25.saying to Edwin, that their preferred business model is now
:55:26. > :55:29.small stores in town and city centres. In particular, close to the
:55:30. > :55:31.House of Fraser. That is their preferred business model. Is that of
:55:32. > :55:37.their preferred business model, we should accommodate it and at the
:55:38. > :55:41.same time protect all those town and city centres that are going to
:55:42. > :55:46.suffer, irreparably, not least Lisburn, irreparably if John Lewis
:55:47. > :55:50.coaster. Of course, as I understand it, there are significant business
:55:51. > :55:54.figures in Lisburn city centre who are very concerned at the prospect
:55:55. > :55:58.of John Lewis coming to Sprucefield. Yes, and they were concerned ten
:55:59. > :56:02.years ago and Lisburn has gone downhill over the past ten years,
:56:03. > :56:06.unfortunately, for the policy clearly has not worked. So you just
:56:07. > :56:10.give up on them completely? No, I think if they had John Lewis the
:56:11. > :56:12.edge of the city, it would have brought more people to the city
:56:13. > :56:18.centre. More people would have come to
:56:19. > :56:21.Waitrose. When Marks Spencer opened the store at Waitrose, Liz
:56:22. > :56:24.Burns beamed thereafter. Bringing many thousands of shoppers... Well
:56:25. > :56:30.how do you account for the decline of the last ten years? Because John
:56:31. > :56:33.Lewis did not come ten years ago. Had we had them ten years ago, we
:56:34. > :56:40.would have fired tens of thousands of potential shoppers right on the
:56:41. > :56:44.edge of Ledburn. Northern Ireland is a very small place, there is always
:56:45. > :56:48.much money to go around. Is the point not that if John Lewis gives
:56:49. > :56:51.Northern Ireland, whether the vast or Waitrose, notionally Northern
:56:52. > :56:55.Ireland plc would do very well, so it does not really matter to any
:56:56. > :57:01.great extent whether it is that site or that site? It makes a difference
:57:02. > :57:04.about what is sustainable about town and city centres being sustainable,
:57:05. > :57:08.about the businesses outside this building being sustainable, about
:57:09. > :57:14.Ballina, Banbridge, Newry, Lisburn being sustainable. The folly of
:57:15. > :57:19.Edwin's argument is that he believes that the original John Lewis
:57:20. > :57:24.planning application, which was John Lewis and 19 other stores and cafes,
:57:25. > :57:28.is somehow works for Liz Vernon. Clearly it does not, because Lisburn
:57:29. > :57:31.has declined even in the absence of John Lewis. The notion that it would
:57:32. > :57:36.prosper with that sort of skill development at Sprucefield is... It
:57:37. > :57:40.certainly would not prosper if you put a John Lewis in the centre of
:57:41. > :57:44.Belfast. That will not help Lisburn. But John was out there will
:57:45. > :57:49.demonstrably help Lisburn and all the other retail centres. The
:57:50. > :57:54.Waitrose decision is based on bringing people from the eastern
:57:55. > :57:59.seaboard. It is right from those 2 million people, from Dublin to
:58:00. > :58:02.Belfast. And if they were coming off away from Dublin they could not do
:58:03. > :58:04.another ten minutes up the moderated to get to Belfast? That is John
:58:05. > :58:11.Lewis's position. Although the figures that they looked at them to
:58:12. > :58:19.choose Waitrose. Ten years ago. And I believe that will still be the
:58:20. > :58:23.case. The policy has changed. People in Belfast need to stop the scorched
:58:24. > :58:24.earth policy and bring jobs to Northern Ireland.
:58:25. > :58:31.Let's have a final word with Patricia and Newton.
:58:32. > :58:38.How to use spot the circle? This has been going on for 15 years, and the
:58:39. > :58:42.world has changed. By the time John Lewis gets here, it will be a
:58:43. > :58:45.website. Belfast City Council is starting to think about it city
:58:46. > :58:49.deal, the entire city region including Lisburn, we need to start
:58:50. > :58:53.thinking of it as part of Belfast, one urban area to develop. We do not
:58:54. > :58:56.have the luxury with academic selection of debating this for
:58:57. > :59:00.decades and decades. People are not even going into city centres to shop
:59:01. > :59:07.at all any more. Their leisure and regional opportunities are
:59:08. > :59:08.different. The treasure? We are talking about a ship that has
:59:09. > :59:11.failed. John Lewis has no immediate plans to come and set up any sort of
:59:12. > :59:15.facilities here in the north, whereas a number of years ago, 13
:59:16. > :59:18.years ago, there were the potential of 1000 jobs they are either in
:59:19. > :59:25.retelling or warehousing or whatever it was. That could change very
:59:26. > :59:28.quickly. People will shop where they choose to. The real threat to our
:59:29. > :59:30.town centres is not John Lewis at Sprucefield, it is online shopping.
:59:31. > :59:34.That is people are choosing to spend the money. What we need to do is
:59:35. > :59:39.acknowledge the bite that they fiasco is about bad government. It
:59:40. > :59:44.is about one minister challenging another in a chord. Acknowledge the
:59:45. > :59:48.fact. That is why it has taken so long to get to this position. We
:59:49. > :59:52.should not be making law that way. Well, it is complicated. If you were
:59:53. > :59:55.a betting man, do you think it would happen or not? I think it may happen
:59:56. > :59:56.with just the John Lewis store at Waitrose.
:59:57. > :59:58.That's it for now - back to Andrew in London.
:59:59. > :00:00.That's it for now - never happened and will not happen
:00:01. > :00:00.in four years. It is subject we should spend more time on. Back to
:00:01. > :00:10.you. What will the Chancellor have to say
:00:11. > :00:15.in his first big economic statement? What impact will the forecasters say
:00:16. > :00:17.Brexit will have on the economy? And who will face the Front
:00:18. > :00:20.National's Marine Le Pen in Well, the Shadow Chancellor
:00:21. > :00:34.and the Chancellor have both been touring the television
:00:35. > :00:36.studios this morning. Let's be clear, a lot of this
:00:37. > :00:42.is going to be gimmicks and press As I've said, in the
:00:43. > :00:45.pipeline, we've only seen one in five delivered
:00:46. > :00:49.to construction, that's all. So a lot of this will be a repeat
:00:50. > :00:51.of what I'm not going to reveal
:00:52. > :00:55.what I'm going to say on We don't have unlimited
:00:56. > :01:00.capacity, as one might imagine from listening
:01:01. > :01:03.to John McDonnell, to borrow hundreds of billions of pounds more
:01:04. > :01:07.for discretionary spending. That simply doesn't
:01:08. > :01:11.exist if we're going to retain this country's hard-won
:01:12. > :01:13.credibility in the financial markets if we are going to remain
:01:14. > :01:30.an attractive place for business to We didn't learn very much, Helen,
:01:31. > :01:33.but the papers were briefed this morning that there will be another
:01:34. > :01:44.?1.3 billion for roads and things like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08% of
:01:45. > :01:48.our GDP. Not exactly an infrastructure investment programme,
:01:49. > :01:57.is it? Yellow like I have to say, it was not thrilling to read the
:01:58. > :02:00.details. -- I have to say... It is the first big financial statement
:02:01. > :02:04.that is going to come and I think there will be a big row about the
:02:05. > :02:08.OBE are forecast because they cannot set out a range, they have to commit
:02:09. > :02:18.to one forecast. Everything they do is incredibly political. DOB are is
:02:19. > :02:25.on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are -- the Office for Budget
:02:26. > :02:30.Responsibility. I don't know how they will square the circle. It is
:02:31. > :02:33.an interesting week. It is all about the economy and public finances and
:02:34. > :02:38.we don't have to talk about Brexit until next Sunday, but no, I have a
:02:39. > :02:48.terrible feeling that by the end of Wednesday afternoon we will be
:02:49. > :02:51.screaming and shouting about how Brexit is going to be for the
:02:52. > :02:55.economy. Just imagine the Treasury comes out with his forecast that it
:02:56. > :03:03.is going to collapse growth and collapsed Treasury takings, people
:03:04. > :03:10.will be apoplectic. Until now, the economy has continued to grow
:03:11. > :03:13.strongly. Pretty well. They cannot say, we have noticed it slowing down
:03:14. > :03:17.and that will continue. They have to take a punt if they think it will
:03:18. > :03:20.slow down. It affects the Chancellor's figures, because the
:03:21. > :03:26.more they say it is slowing down, and I have seen that it will go from
:03:27. > :03:30.2% down to 1.4%, the more the Chancellor's deficit rises even
:03:31. > :03:35.without any more tax cuts and spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is
:03:36. > :03:40.right. What we will see this week is a continuation of the debate we have
:03:41. > :03:43.been having all along. If the Office for Budget Responsibility has
:03:44. > :03:52.negative and gloomy predictions, there will be howls of agony, and
:03:53. > :03:55.rightly howls of frustration from Brexiteers who will say that all the
:03:56. > :03:59.dire predictions from before the referendum have not come to pass and
:04:00. > :04:06.now you are talking things down in a way that becomes a self-fulfilling
:04:07. > :04:13.prophecy. The money for roads, you were dismissive about it, but every
:04:14. > :04:17.little helps. I don't dismiss it, I say it doesn't amount to a fiscal
:04:18. > :04:25.stimulus in macro economic terms. I'm sure if you are on that road, it
:04:26. > :04:33.will be useful. They are going to build a super highway between Oxford
:04:34. > :04:40.and Cambridge. I would like to see them go out to Japan and learn how
:04:41. > :04:44.to fill a hole in two days. I would suggest the road from Oxford to
:04:45. > :04:47.Cambridge is not for the just managing classes, even though it
:04:48. > :04:59.goes through Milton Keynes, and that simply freezing due freezing fuel
:05:00. > :05:03.duty isn't going to hack it, either. These just about managing people are
:05:04. > :05:07.potentially quite a big band. With income tax rises, it means anything
:05:08. > :05:10.you do to help them is incredibly expensive. The universal credit
:05:11. > :05:16.freeze is an interesting example of that. Philip Hammond sounded
:05:17. > :05:24.ambivalent about it after pre-briefings that it might not, the
:05:25. > :05:28.cuts might not go ahead. There are people who are in work but because
:05:29. > :05:34.they are low paid don't have the number of hours, they require
:05:35. > :05:39.welfare benefits to top up their pay, and these welfare benefits, as
:05:40. > :05:43.it stands, are frozen until 2020, and yet inflation is now starting to
:05:44. > :05:49.rise. That's a problem for the just managing people. Correct. It is
:05:50. > :05:57.worse than that, because we are talking about April 2017 when tax
:05:58. > :06:03.credits become universal credits, so the squeeze will be greater. We will
:06:04. > :06:07.get a small highway between a couple of university towns, but if he has
:06:08. > :06:14.any money left to spend at all, it will be on some pretty seismic
:06:15. > :06:20.jazzman for the just about managing people. I am so glad we're not
:06:21. > :06:26.calling them Jams on this programme, because it is a patronising tone.
:06:27. > :06:35.What the Chancellor and Shadow Chancellor did not confront is that
:06:36. > :06:38.Mr Trump's election is a watershed in terms of being able to borrow
:06:39. > :06:42.cheaply. The Federal Reserve is about to start raising rates. The
:06:43. > :06:47.days of cheap borrowing for governments could be coming to an
:06:48. > :06:51.end. You can feel a bit sorry for labour here because after having had
:06:52. > :06:54.six years of being told that we need a surplus and these things are
:06:55. > :06:58.important, we can't deny the deficit, we have switched now and
:06:59. > :07:05.the first thing that Philip Hammond did was to scrap George Osborne's
:07:06. > :07:08.borrowing targets. He has given himself more wriggle room than
:07:09. > :07:16.George Osborne had. He has and it will cost them more. Debt servicing
:07:17. > :07:17.will now rise as a cost. Where is the next political earthquake going
:07:18. > :07:23.to happen? It could be Italy, or the French
:07:24. > :07:30.elections coming up next spring. Now, who will face the Front
:07:31. > :07:33.National's Marine Le Pen in next year's French Presidential
:07:34. > :07:34.elections? Well, France's centre-right
:07:35. > :07:36.part, Les Republicans, are selecting their candidate
:07:37. > :07:38.in the first round of Well, France's centre-right
:07:39. > :07:40.part, Les Republicans, are selecting their candidate
:07:41. > :07:44.in the first round of Let's speak to our correspondent
:07:45. > :07:57.in Paris, Hugh Schofield. Welcome to the programme. Three main
:07:58. > :08:02.candidates, the former -- two former prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy,
:08:03. > :08:07.the former president. It is not clear who the front runner is.
:08:08. > :08:17.Robbins it is quite an exciting race, because four weeks it did look
:08:18. > :08:25.as if it was going to be Juppe. It is a two round race. Two go through
:08:26. > :08:29.and the idea is that they rally all the support together. It looked like
:08:30. > :08:33.the first round would be dominated by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and
:08:34. > :08:41.there was a clear binary combination there, because Sarkozy was looking
:08:42. > :08:44.for squeamish far right voters. In other words, veering clearly to the
:08:45. > :08:50.right and far right on immigration and identity issues. And Juppe is
:08:51. > :08:56.the opposite, saying we had to appeal to the centre. That was what
:08:57. > :09:00.it looked like. But the third candidate has made this really quite
:09:01. > :09:05.staggering surge in the last few days. There was a debate on Thursday
:09:06. > :09:09.and he was deemed to have won it on television. He is coming up
:09:10. > :09:13.strongly, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him go through,
:09:14. > :09:19.which would be interesting from a British perspective, because if the
:09:20. > :09:23.becomes president, he will be the first president with a British wife.
:09:24. > :09:30.His wife Penelope is Welsh. We will have to leave it there. I
:09:31. > :09:33.would suggest that the reason it is fascinating is that whoever wins
:09:34. > :09:38.this primary for the centre-right party is likely to be the next
:09:39. > :09:42.president, and who the next president is will be very important
:09:43. > :09:46.for Britain in these Brexit negotiations. Nothing will really
:09:47. > :09:51.happen until it is determined. Then after the German elections in
:09:52. > :09:56.October. I would add one more constituent part. The most important
:09:57. > :10:03.thing about the race is who can stop Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will
:10:04. > :10:11.almost be one of the ones in the run-off. The Socialists don't expect
:10:12. > :10:19.much. Francois Hollande is done. There is too much of a cliff to
:10:20. > :10:23.climb. Which one of these three centre-right candidates can stop
:10:24. > :10:28.Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit and Trump, but we could also have
:10:29. > :10:36.Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy, it is the battle of the right. In some
:10:37. > :10:43.areas, he has moved to the right of marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he
:10:44. > :10:46.has do in order to take the wind out of our sails. You wonder if she
:10:47. > :10:49.could succeed later on if she does not this time. Talking to French
:10:50. > :10:53.analysts last night, there was suggesting that she could not do it
:10:54. > :10:58.this time but could win the next time. All the events in France over
:10:59. > :11:02.the last year seemed to provide the most propitious circumstances for
:11:03. > :11:08.her to do well, and particularly if you throw in Trump and Brexit.
:11:09. > :11:12.Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he goes through and wins the Republican
:11:13. > :11:19.nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen go through to the second round, that
:11:20. > :11:24.would mean, think about it, is that a lot of French socialist voters and
:11:25. > :11:31.those on the father left would have to grit their teeth and vote for
:11:32. > :11:36.Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do it. We might see what we saw in
:11:37. > :11:47.America, where lots of potential Clinton voters did not turn out. You
:11:48. > :11:50.got politicians like Melanchon on the far left saying there are
:11:51. > :11:57.foreign workers taking bread out of French workers' mounts. We sometimes
:11:58. > :12:04.forget, because we tend to emphasise the National of the National front,
:12:05. > :12:15.but actually, there are economic policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is
:12:16. > :12:27.the Hillary Clinton of the French elections. He is Mr establishment.
:12:28. > :12:32.Juppe and the other third candidate are the same. You have to
:12:33. > :12:34.re-establish candidates running against an antiestablishment
:12:35. > :12:40.candidate. There are populist economic policies from the National
:12:41. > :12:42.front. The other three want to raise the retirement age and cut back on
:12:43. > :12:51.the 35 hour week, which are not classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe
:12:52. > :12:55.used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux. And we are the biggest importers of
:12:56. > :13:03.claret, so that could have an effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear
:13:04. > :13:11.against John Marine Le Pen, and the socialist campaign slogan was, vote
:13:12. > :13:12.for the Crook, not the fascist. We will see what they come up with this
:13:13. > :13:15.time. The Daily Politics is back at noon
:13:16. > :13:19.tomorrow on BBC Two, where on Wednesday I will have full
:13:20. > :13:25.coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn But remember, if it's Sunday,
:13:26. > :13:34.it's the Sunday Politics.