:00:34. > :00:38.Hello, and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. It's
:00:39. > :00:41.the newest party on the block, but can NI21 deliver realistic
:00:42. > :00:46.alternatives? Its leader Basil McCrea says Stormont should be given
:00:47. > :00:48.more tax powers. It will increase accountability, it will make a
:00:49. > :00:52.greater propensity for local parties to work together, it will make them
:00:53. > :00:58.more accountable and I think it will make for better government. Also up
:00:59. > :01:02.for discussion today - its last incarnation was in 2002, but now the
:01:03. > :01:08.SDLP wants to see a return of the Civic Forum. Alex Attwood will be
:01:09. > :01:11.telling me why. Also today: The economy is starting to grow, but
:01:12. > :01:14.when will people's standard of living increase?
:01:15. > :01:16.We'll be asking if we're finally beginning to emerge from the
:01:17. > :01:20.economic downturn. And to discuss all of that and more,
:01:21. > :01:23.I'm joined by the political correspondent of the News Letter,
:01:24. > :01:30.Sam McBride, and the University of Ulster's Dr Cathy Gormley-Heenan.
:01:31. > :01:35.The party political conference season is well and truly upon us.
:01:36. > :01:39.Yesterday it was the turn of the newest party here, NI21. Its leader,
:01:40. > :01:42.Basil McCrea, wants Westminster to allow local politicians the
:01:43. > :01:46.authority to raise or reduce the levels of income tax and stamp duty.
:01:47. > :01:50.He set up the party this year, along with John McCallister, after the two
:01:51. > :01:53.men left the Ulster Unionist Party. Stephen Walker went along to the
:01:54. > :01:57.party's inaugural conference for Sunday Politics.
:01:58. > :02:03.Outside Belfast's Europe Hotel, NI21 show their colours. Inside they
:02:04. > :02:08.claimed to have found a new political formula. This marks the
:02:09. > :02:13.first opportunity for NI21 to map out in detail some of their
:02:14. > :02:16.policies. But what do their activists and supporters make of
:02:17. > :02:24.their plans, in particular the idea that the Executive could control
:02:25. > :02:29.levels of income tax? I think it is an aspiration. If we
:02:30. > :02:31.want to grow up as a party and a country, we should be looking at
:02:32. > :02:38.saying we need responsibility for ourselves.
:02:39. > :02:44.I am happy in my income tax that I am contributing, it involves local
:02:45. > :02:48.people. Income tax is where the finances
:02:49. > :02:52.come from, and if you control how you tax people, the more power that
:02:53. > :02:57.comes to Stormont the better and the more effective parliament can be.
:02:58. > :03:02.Basil McCrea believes greater fiscal powers will make devolution
:03:03. > :03:04.stronger. It will increase accountability, it
:03:05. > :03:12.will help Northern Ireland parties to work together, and I think it
:03:13. > :03:17.will make for better government. What do the Business Committee
:03:18. > :03:22.think? We need to be cautious in the steps
:03:23. > :03:26.we take in that. We have been at the forefront of the devolution of
:03:27. > :03:30.corporation tax. If you go into more broad measures such as income tax,
:03:31. > :03:34.it requires a lot more to be done before we can be sure where that
:03:35. > :03:37.path will go. Other policies included an official
:03:38. > :03:46.opposition at Stormont and the First and Deputy First Minister becoming
:03:47. > :03:49.joint ministers. Peter and Martin are joined. One
:03:50. > :03:55.cannot order a fish supper without the other one. Let's call it what it
:03:56. > :04:01.is, a joint office. So how should we now view NI21?
:04:02. > :04:05.You look at people around the room, this is the first time they have
:04:06. > :04:09.come to politics. But are they ready for the hard slog of standing in
:04:10. > :04:14.elections, pounding the puck past and knocking on doors? That will be
:04:15. > :04:18.a challenge to get past this idealism and a vague feeling that
:04:19. > :04:25.things aren't right and translate it into commitment to do something.
:04:26. > :04:29.So their first conference is over but another first is on the horizon.
:04:30. > :04:36.The council and European elections present NI21 with their first
:04:37. > :04:39.electoral test. They happen next May.
:04:40. > :04:41.Let's get some reaction from my guests, Cathy Gormley-Heenan and Sam
:04:42. > :04:44.McBride. Cathy, Basil's big thought, local politicians being able to set
:04:45. > :04:56.income tax and stamp levelled levels. Good idea?
:04:57. > :05:00.Yes, I am glad because Northern Ireland has declared itself on the
:05:01. > :05:02.debate on tax, up to this point we have had some tentative
:05:03. > :05:04.conversations about fiscal devolution and autonomy but nothing
:05:05. > :05:14.more substantial. -- has abdicated itself.
:05:15. > :05:17.Sam, is that how you see it? People talk about this before but it
:05:18. > :05:21.never happens. The argument for work which was made yesterday is that it
:05:22. > :05:25.helps Stormont grow up, it lets them raise their own taxes so they cannot
:05:26. > :05:28.complain about cuts here or there, they need to take responsibility
:05:29. > :05:35.themselves and that is a good argument. The problem is that
:05:36. > :05:45.Northern Ireland gets a huge help from Westminster, millions of pounds
:05:46. > :05:49.each year. -- billions of pounds. In some ways it is masked by the Fife
:05:50. > :05:52.-- fact that income tax is centralised. If Northern Ireland
:05:53. > :05:55.raises all its own income tax, it would be obvious how much we get
:05:56. > :05:58.from Westminster. Those sorts of questions weren't really addressed.
:05:59. > :06:01.Another notion was getting rid of the office of First Minister and
:06:02. > :06:06.Deputy First Minister and calling it what it is, a joint office. I
:06:07. > :06:14.imagine that would inflame matters in some quarters. This was raised by
:06:15. > :06:18.the Alliance in 2007 and Martin McGuinness had asked the Hansard
:06:19. > :06:22.team to change the D in OFMDFM to a small D to signify that it is a
:06:23. > :06:26.joint office, so there have been some moves at signifying that this
:06:27. > :06:29.is a joint office, which it is but it has never been explicitly said,
:06:30. > :06:46.and I think the NI21 remarks shine a spotlight on that. The issue of an
:06:47. > :06:49.opposition was raised. John McCallister's pitch to the leader of
:06:50. > :06:57.the Austrian party was about going into opposition. -- the leader of
:06:58. > :06:59.the Ulster Unionist Party. That has not gone away. That is what
:07:00. > :07:03.differentiates them from the Alliance Party, which is their big
:07:04. > :07:07.task. There was some meat on the bones of what the opposition stuff
:07:08. > :07:10.would mean but also the role of the speaker, which is technical but
:07:11. > :07:13.crucial in making the speaker more like the speaker at Westminster,
:07:14. > :07:18.where they have less control, the parties have less control of that
:07:19. > :07:22.process. Did you get the sense it was a
:07:23. > :07:26.successful conference or will it weather on the vine? It was a
:07:27. > :07:29.successful conference in the short space of time they had. A lot of
:07:30. > :07:40.young people, energy, Basil McCrea's speech was a bit rambling but there
:07:41. > :07:43.were things that enthused people. Liam Clarke's point, lots of
:07:44. > :07:49.youthful enthusiasm but will it translate to political commitment? I
:07:50. > :07:51.think it will. One strapline was a post-agreement party for a
:07:52. > :07:55.post-agreement generation, and most people voting for the first time in
:07:56. > :08:00.the next elections were born as the agreement was signed, so there is an
:08:01. > :08:07.appetite there. Thank you both for now.
:08:08. > :08:10.There's been a lot of talk over the past week about jobs and business in
:08:11. > :08:14.general, and mention even of the green shoots of recovery. But is
:08:15. > :08:17.that too optimistic? In a moment I'll be talking to the chair of the
:08:18. > :08:20.Assembly's Finance Committee, Daithi McKay, and David McIlveen, who sits
:08:21. > :08:28.on the Enterprise Trade and Investment Committee. -- he is
:08:29. > :08:30.private secretary to the Finance Secretary. But first, our economics
:08:31. > :08:33.and business editor, John Campbell, assesses if things are really
:08:34. > :08:35.improving, and if there are hard facts to back up the feel-good
:08:36. > :08:39.factor. The economy is recovering but the
:08:40. > :08:43.pace of growth is slow. We have a long way to go before we get back to
:08:44. > :08:47.where we were before the recession. There were a couple of bits of good
:08:48. > :08:50.news, the decline in unemployment is continuing and some evidence that
:08:51. > :08:53.job creation has picked up. Inflation also fell this week but
:08:54. > :08:55.other figures show the service sector, the biggest part of the
:08:56. > :08:59.local economy, shrank during the year, but most economists say the
:09:00. > :09:05.growth we have seen did not pick up until the third quarter during the
:09:06. > :09:08.summer months. Next week, with the new instalment of the house price
:09:09. > :09:11.index, expect that to show an increase in transaction but not
:09:12. > :09:14.prices, we also get a survey of earnings which will show how much
:09:15. > :09:17.pressure household budgets are under, because a question for the
:09:18. > :09:28.economy is how can it grow if people's wages are falling in real
:09:29. > :09:31.terms? John Campbell setting out the stall
:09:32. > :09:35.there. The Sinn Fein MLA Daithi McKay is the chair of the Assembly's
:09:36. > :09:38.Finance Committee. He's with me now, along with the DUP's David McIlveen,
:09:39. > :09:40.who's private secretary to the Finance Minister, Simon Hamilton.
:09:41. > :09:46.John ended his comments with an interesting assessment, which may be
:09:47. > :09:51.a good place to start. How can the economy grow if wages are static or
:09:52. > :09:54.falling in real terms? Over the past nine months, there has
:09:55. > :10:02.been a continuing fall in the employment rate. We have seen more
:10:03. > :10:04.good news stories, more direct foreign investment and exports are
:10:05. > :10:08.up, which indicates indigenous businesses are doing well, so the
:10:09. > :10:17.elephant in the room is the cost of living. People go to the shops on a
:10:18. > :10:21.weekly basis and spend over ?100 each time, the cost of goods is
:10:22. > :10:25.another issue, and a lot of these issues can be dealt with if you take
:10:26. > :10:29.control of fiscal powers, as was referred to in your previous piece.
:10:30. > :10:34.-- the cost of fuel is another issue as well.
:10:35. > :10:41.Are you backing Basil McCrea in that demand? They are backing us because
:10:42. > :10:44.we raised the issue, but income tax and stamp duty were two issues
:10:45. > :10:52.raised a couple of weeks ago on some commission recommendations so it is
:10:53. > :10:55.limited in terms of their scope. Do you agree, David McIlveen, that
:10:56. > :10:59.the parties at Stormont and Simon Hamilton has to get his hands on the
:11:00. > :11:07.real evils of power, the capacity to raise or lower income tax? -- the
:11:08. > :11:10.real levers of power. The term green shoots of recovery I
:11:11. > :11:14.would hope is permanently etched from vocabulary, because we have to
:11:15. > :11:18.realise boom and bust did not work and we now need a level head to
:11:19. > :11:23.ensure our economy grows at a sustainable rate. I do not believe
:11:24. > :11:30.devolving fiscal powers to Stormont is the best way forward, surely
:11:31. > :11:33.because it is fantasy politics. Conservative estimations indicate we
:11:34. > :11:40.received ?11 billion more each year then what we sent in tax receipts.
:11:41. > :11:46.That is around ?6,500 for every citizen of Northern Ireland. I don't
:11:47. > :11:50.know about Sinn Fein or NI21, but if they want to go to the electorate
:11:51. > :11:58.and tell them they will give them a ?6,500 greater tax bill, they are
:11:59. > :12:07.braver men than I. What about stamp duty? These things come at a cost.
:12:08. > :12:10.We have targeted requests for fiscal powers to areas where we believe we
:12:11. > :12:18.can gain an overall economic benefit. Corporation tax, air
:12:19. > :12:22.traffic duty. So should we just soak it up? Wages are static or falling,
:12:23. > :12:25.you don't want the levers of power to change things, which some people
:12:26. > :12:36.think would be an important asset. We just have to get on with it?
:12:37. > :12:43.There are two things we can do. We can keep household taxes low and
:12:44. > :12:47.this Assembly has delivered that. Second, we can create better higher
:12:48. > :12:51.paid jobs. We know our economy is too reliant on the public sector.
:12:52. > :12:55.There have been more private-sector jobs created in the last two years
:12:56. > :13:04.then in the history of Northern Ireland. That is good news. Daithi
:13:05. > :13:09.McKay, so you are engaged in in fantasy politics? Dublin had chances
:13:10. > :13:13.in terms of the taxes down there. We don't have that here, we have
:13:14. > :13:25.guesses based on the surveys David referred to. They are not based on
:13:26. > :13:28.actual figures. Dublin is a sovereign state in control of its
:13:29. > :13:33.own affairs, the reality for us is that we are part of the UK economy.
:13:34. > :13:42.You have to accept that. I don't accept that. It is backed at the
:13:43. > :13:46.moment. -- it is a fact at the moment. But to get back to fiscal
:13:47. > :13:50.powers, what we are entitled to is accurate figures in terms of taxes
:13:51. > :13:54.we raise so we can go to London with a stronger hand when it comes to the
:13:55. > :13:57.economy. But look at corporation tax. That was trailed as a great
:13:58. > :14:02.panacea but it hasn't happened and now we are told it is on the long
:14:03. > :14:10.finger and will come at a cost. It is a risky thing to engage. We have
:14:11. > :14:13.to take risks. You cannot keep throwing out estimates and scaring
:14:14. > :14:16.people off because ultimately this economy will not go anywhere. In
:14:17. > :14:23.terms of moving this issue forward, we need a proper, mature debate as
:14:24. > :14:27.is happening in Wales and Scotland. The real problem is the dogma that
:14:28. > :14:29.has been introduced by Unionist politicians because when Sammy
:14:30. > :14:32.Wilson, the previous Finance Minister, was questioned about
:14:33. > :14:36.devolution, he said he would be opposed to it because he is a
:14:37. > :14:39.Unionist. That does not cut it with the people who want to see this
:14:40. > :14:52.happen. You should be practical, not dogmatic? We have to use devolution
:14:53. > :14:55.to our best advantage and it is ironic we have a Sinn Fein
:14:56. > :15:00.representative saying we should be more like what is happening across
:15:01. > :15:04.the border. I struggle to find anyone in Northern Ireland today who
:15:05. > :15:07.would want to be in an economy which has undergone such extreme austerity
:15:08. > :15:17.as Republic of Ireland has had to face.
:15:18. > :15:20.Briefly, can you comment on the petrol bomb attack on an Alliance
:15:21. > :15:25.Party office in East Belfast last night? Naomi Long says it's an
:15:26. > :15:28.attack on democracy. Is she right? I agree entirely with that. We have
:15:29. > :15:32.experienced many attacks on our people, on property, we are no
:15:33. > :15:38.stranger to how that feels. This is an attack on democracy. It not only
:15:39. > :15:41.was an attack on an elected representative's office but it could
:15:42. > :15:50.have damaged adjoining premises. I don't see how that is good for East
:15:51. > :15:52.Belfast. Our thoughts should be with Naomi and all their elected
:15:53. > :15:56.representatives working in that office and their families because
:15:57. > :16:00.this has a huge impact that people do not realise, but in terms of
:16:01. > :16:03.Belfast, we do not want to see a repeat of what happened here before.
:16:04. > :16:06.We want to see a happy and productive Christmas and see
:16:07. > :16:13.businesses grow and flourish as they should have done this year.
:16:14. > :16:17.Thank you both. Time now for a look at what's been
:16:18. > :16:27.making the headlines in the political week gone past.
:16:28. > :16:34.Tributes were paid to one of the SDLP's founders. From Cranfield to
:16:35. > :16:41.Crossgar, everyone had the highest respect for Edinburgh they. -- for
:16:42. > :16:47.Eddie. Stormont was told to hurry up welfare reform. ?400 million a month
:16:48. > :16:50.does not sound a lot but it will be 60 million in the first year.
:16:51. > :16:56.Another bill was killed by Mark H Durkan. I am not scrapping the
:16:57. > :16:59.National Parks Bill but I am shelving it. Parading talks
:17:00. > :17:06.continued but there was no breakthrough. They were helpful
:17:07. > :17:10.meetings. That does not mean there was a miracle. And Edwin Poots gave
:17:11. > :17:14.us some marriage guidance. Many people who are heterosexual desire
:17:15. > :17:30.lots of other folks. Those of us who are married should not be doing
:17:31. > :17:33.that, so people can resist urges. Now, if you've been a keen follower
:17:34. > :17:37.of local politics for a while, you'll very probably recall the
:17:38. > :17:43.Civil Forum. It was set up in 2000 to address pressing social economic
:17:44. > :17:47.and cultural matters. However, its life was short-lived, and it hasn't
:17:48. > :17:51.met since 2002. Tomorrow, the Assembly will debate an SDLP motion
:17:52. > :17:56.to recall it by as soon as the end of January. Let's hear more from
:17:57. > :18:00.Alex Attwood, who's proposed the motion. Thank you for joining us. It
:18:01. > :18:04.met 12 times between 2000 and 2002, and then slipped away into the
:18:05. > :18:08.shadows. Doesn't it look a bit like a relic of the past at this stage? I
:18:09. > :18:12.think the greater strength of society today and over the last ten
:18:13. > :18:20.or 20 years has been the party of our civic groups. -- the authority
:18:21. > :18:23.of our civic groups. They held this place together during the years of
:18:24. > :18:26.conflict and they are the people, and Richard Haass could tell you
:18:27. > :18:30.this, who have given the wisest advice to this new talks process. I
:18:31. > :18:34.think it is time now to scale up the input of civic society into our
:18:35. > :18:41.politics, and doing so will make politics more honest than we have
:18:42. > :18:44.seen recently. Do we really need a Civic Forum to do that, because you
:18:45. > :18:48.have said there have been hundreds of submissions from civic society to
:18:49. > :18:54.the house is all talks without this form? Let's take as an example the
:18:55. > :18:58.victims form, add all the indications are that while its work
:18:59. > :19:01.is challenging, it has shaken up well and that creates a better
:19:02. > :19:10.understanding of the issues around victims and helps politicians to do
:19:11. > :19:13.what has to be done on their behalf. In respect of civic groups, we need
:19:14. > :19:19.to build an inclusive society, we need to capture all those who give
:19:20. > :19:24.good authority and advice. Creating a new Civic Forum is one way of
:19:25. > :19:27.doing so, and in my view will create a great point of contrast between
:19:28. > :19:34.the failure of party politics and the strength of civic groups. But
:19:35. > :19:37.isn't this a spectacular own goal on your part because by calling for the
:19:38. > :19:44.reintroduction of the Civic Forum, you are admitting our politicians
:19:45. > :19:50.have failed us. Yes, we have. Look around us at the flags and parades
:19:51. > :19:53.dispute, look at politics degrading. Some parties clearly had a bigger
:19:54. > :20:01.responsibility to govern and they have the biggest failure in not
:20:02. > :20:06.leading or governing. But your party has failed too. It is part of that
:20:07. > :20:12.overall failure? I think politics has failed people in Northern
:20:13. > :20:15.Ireland. I think it is more true for some parties than others, but how
:20:16. > :20:22.are we going to have the image of values of the Good Friday agreement,
:20:23. > :20:28.that hope, that daring, recreated? One way is to heed their voices in
:20:29. > :20:33.this document. This is one of four volumes of submissions to the Haass
:20:34. > :20:37.talks. There are more to come. There is a weight and depth of advice and
:20:38. > :20:45.wisdom in here that we need to hear in the future if we are going to
:20:46. > :20:49.reshape our society. At what cost? Bringing back the civic form would
:20:50. > :20:55.cost money. People say it is another unnecessary layer of bureaucracy.
:20:56. > :21:01.2001/2 cost ?425,000. 2002/3 cost ?328,000. That was over a decade
:21:02. > :21:07.ago. We have had a conversation about how nobody can afford it. Go
:21:08. > :21:10.up Twaddell Avenue today and you will see the cost in financial terms
:21:11. > :21:14.to Northern Ireland people from that dispute. The costs of the four are
:21:15. > :21:19.relatively minor in giving the opportunity a new form would create.
:21:20. > :21:23.-- the costs of the forum. If we run civic society the way we have for
:21:24. > :21:30.the last ten years, society will not move forward the way it should. Alex
:21:31. > :21:34.Attwood, thank you. Let's get some final thoughts from our guests.
:21:35. > :21:41.Unusual to hear a politician admit that politicians have failed the
:21:42. > :21:45.people. It is pretty honest. Alex is being honest in terms of saying all
:21:46. > :21:51.the parties in the system have built people, which few could argue with
:21:52. > :21:54.if they are being candid. -- Alex is being general in saying all of the
:21:55. > :21:57.parties have failed to people. The Dublin Finance Minister, who spoke
:21:58. > :22:03.at the NI21 conference, made this point that politicians need to be
:22:04. > :22:07.more honest. -- the junior minister in the Dublin finance ministry. This
:22:08. > :22:11.Civic Forum has merit in so far as it could give advice to Stormont but
:22:12. > :22:14.it will only ever be an advice and Stormont gets a lot of advice. It
:22:15. > :22:18.brings in people and committees about welfare reform and education.
:22:19. > :22:21.Who would make up this body? Would groups like the Orange Order, the
:22:22. > :22:30.GAA, big organisations in Northern Ireland? That was not resolved after
:22:31. > :22:35.the Good Friday agreement. Interesting issues that Sam raises.
:22:36. > :22:40.But is it a starter or the Civic Forum could be reintroduced? I think
:22:41. > :22:44.it should be reintroducing. It was a key component of the Good Friday
:22:45. > :22:48.agreement and I cannot see why it was allowed to fall. The costs were
:22:49. > :22:54.not substantial. It costs around ?50,000 a day to police Twaddell
:22:55. > :23:00.Avenue. The costs in comparison to that are insignificant. It was a key
:23:01. > :23:05.part of agreement and should be brought back. The problem was that
:23:06. > :23:13.the collective leaderships of the two main parties don't seem to want
:23:14. > :23:16.it. The argument against it at the time was that it was basically a
:23:17. > :23:21.talking shop, it wasn't very expensive but it was money for very
:23:22. > :23:29.little. We will see if it is reintroduced. Thank you both for
:23:30. > :23:36.joining us. That's it for this week, Albee back tomorrow evening at
:23:37. > :23:38.11:20pm over on BBC Two. Join me for that. Thanks for watching. Goodbye.