:01:10. > :01:15.In the end, it was a case of crisis averted, but at one point this week
:01:16. > :01:18.the collapse of the Assembly looked like it might just happen - again.
:01:19. > :01:22.The political storm blew up in the wake of the collapse of the John
:01:23. > :01:26.Downey court case and the light the court judgement shed on secret
:01:27. > :01:29.letters issued to IRA 'on-the-runs'. As the blame game continues, where
:01:30. > :01:32.has this past turbulent week left the political process and the
:01:33. > :01:41.ongoing attempts to resolve our troubled past? Joining me now is the
:01:42. > :01:48.Justice Minister, David Ford. Thank you for joining us. First of all, a
:01:49. > :01:51.development today. Peter Hain wrote in the Sunday Telegraph and has
:01:52. > :01:58.called for the soldiers involved in the Bloody Sunday killings not to be
:01:59. > :02:02.prosecuted. Do you agree? It almost looks like playing a part
:02:03. > :02:08.in one pseudo- amnesty, he is now try to play a part in another. When
:02:09. > :02:14.the Attorney General suggested we should draw a line under the past it
:02:15. > :02:17.was almost universally rejected. There are difficulties with evidence
:02:18. > :02:22.when you go back that far but it does not mean we should abandon the
:02:23. > :02:25.opportunity if there is one in some cases. There is an anomaly in the
:02:26. > :02:31.system and does that not need to be addressed?
:02:32. > :02:36.The system is full of anomalies, mostly because of the way the
:02:37. > :02:40.British government was making side deals. That is the reality and we
:02:41. > :02:43.are living with those anomalies as people like we try to get the
:02:44. > :02:50.justice system to work properly today.
:02:51. > :02:58.You can understand why Unionists are pretty angry. How people potentially
:02:59. > :03:05.involved in violent crime are given a potentially "get out free card" as
:03:06. > :03:11.they describe it? But the fact that somebody was on
:03:12. > :03:20.duty in one case doesn't mean they did not commit a crime. That is the
:03:21. > :03:24.way very highest standards should be held for those who are responsible
:03:25. > :03:28.as agents of the state. We have to look at the practical realities as
:03:29. > :03:32.to what may not be possible without saying we draw a line and
:03:33. > :03:37.effectively grant an amnesty without an attempt to get justice where it
:03:38. > :03:43.is possible. What would your advice to Peter Hain be?
:03:44. > :03:46.I am not sure his advice is being particularly well received. Perhaps
:03:47. > :03:51.the best thing he could do is to give a full account of everything he
:03:52. > :03:56.did to the enquiry. In the Sunday Times, Peter Robinson
:03:57. > :04:02.accused Peter Hain of misleading Parliament over the on-the-run
:04:03. > :04:07.letters in 2006 and 2007, but Peter Hain refuted that. When you look at
:04:08. > :04:12.what he said in Hansard, it makes for interesting reading, doesn't it?
:04:13. > :04:19.Some of the remarks appeared to be less than the complete truth. He
:04:20. > :04:24.said that he said it had to be addressed. I think he needs to
:04:25. > :04:33.examine his precise background and perhaps that is something the judge
:04:34. > :04:36.will do in the coming months. You got clarity on Thursday night,
:04:37. > :04:39.Friday morning that there are five "live" OTR cases currently in the
:04:40. > :04:48.system for consideration. Should they be stopped, as the DUP has
:04:49. > :04:52.demanded? I simply don't have enough detail
:04:53. > :04:57.what the status of that is whether they can be stopped. I have a track
:04:58. > :05:02.-- asked for legal advice as to what the department can do. It is a
:05:03. > :05:07.really unclear position. You will have heard the Secretary of State
:05:08. > :05:12.saying it is a devolved issue, but it was never a devolved issue. The
:05:13. > :05:16.Northern Ireland Office continued and accepted a call from a senior
:05:17. > :05:20.official on Friday that they were still responsible for those five
:05:21. > :05:25.even though we are still four years into devolution.
:05:26. > :05:28.So as far as you are concerned, you are the justice minister but these
:05:29. > :05:33.five cases have not been devolved to you?
:05:34. > :05:41.I have made it clear that I want no part in Peterhead and's shabby
:05:42. > :05:49.scheme. -- in Peter Hain's shabby scheme. It is unclear as to quote --
:05:50. > :05:53.whether there was any right for The Northern Ireland Office to continue
:05:54. > :05:57.to pursue them after devolution. It looks like being scheme is
:05:58. > :06:02.continuing, doesn't it? It appears to pay but whether it is
:06:03. > :06:07.legally the case is something on which I am seeking advice.
:06:08. > :06:12.Presumably being plucked -- the enquiry will clarify some of this,
:06:13. > :06:16.do you think? It is not expected to report until
:06:17. > :06:21.the end of May. We know something about the broad terms of reference
:06:22. > :06:25.but there are frequently differences as to how they are interpreted. If a
:06:26. > :06:30.judge wants to get into the full details of the case we will have a
:06:31. > :06:34.better chance. The select committee in Westminster may well be looking
:06:35. > :06:37.at the detail if they don't think a judge lead enquiry has gone far
:06:38. > :06:40.enough. The most senior... It turns out that
:06:41. > :06:43.the most senior civil servant in your department, Nick Perry, knew
:06:44. > :06:49.about what you've called "this shabby, back door deal" all along.
:06:50. > :06:57.You did not! I don't know how much Nick knew. The
:06:58. > :06:59.civil service code makes it clear that civil servants serve the
:07:00. > :07:03.minister who leads the department they are in. The day they move
:07:04. > :07:10.departments they have allegiance to a different minister. And that is
:07:11. > :07:13.how it should be. It is the principle of a nonpolitical civil
:07:14. > :07:17.service working in the interests of the ministers who are there by the
:07:18. > :07:21.political process. I would be annoyed if people who moved from the
:07:22. > :07:26.Department of Justice were telling what went on in that department. You
:07:27. > :07:32.might think I would have wished to know from Nick Perry, but there are
:07:33. > :07:36.much wider implications and his behaviour has been proper. No one is
:07:37. > :07:39.suggesting anything to the contrary but people might be wondering that
:07:40. > :07:48.it is not a good example of joined up government?
:07:49. > :07:51.Files have markers put in them when governments changed and when
:07:52. > :07:55.ministers changed saying, the information below this is not to be
:07:56. > :08:00.revealed to the new ministers and there are lots of complications
:08:01. > :08:05.around that. What other wider political
:08:06. > :08:11.implications, do you think? Night -- Mike Nesbitt declared that as far as
:08:12. > :08:16.he is concerned, the Haass talks are dead in the water and he is taking
:08:17. > :08:22.no part. Is that your position? No, that was a foolish thing for him
:08:23. > :08:27.to say. It doesn't matter what emerges from however many
:08:28. > :08:31.enquiries, five parties have the responsibility for leading the
:08:32. > :08:34.executive. Collectively, we have the responsibility to build a better
:08:35. > :08:41.shared future for Northern Ireland and to ensure we put the past behind
:08:42. > :08:43.us in a way which deals with it honestly and comprehensively and we
:08:44. > :08:47.can provide something for which I children and grandchildren can be
:08:48. > :08:53.proud. If we say, I wash my hands of it, we will not get anywhere.
:08:54. > :08:57.But this situation of the past 72 hours has fatally wounded that
:08:58. > :09:02.process, has it not? Maybe the four of us will have to
:09:03. > :09:06.carry on without him. Fundamentally, the people of
:09:07. > :09:10.Northern Ireland, through their elected representatives, have to
:09:11. > :09:12.solve the problems whatever else is happening.
:09:13. > :09:20.Do you think the DUP will stay in the process? I think they have
:09:21. > :09:25.distanced themselves from Mike Nesbitt. I am not sure he wants to
:09:26. > :09:31.be relevant, but certainly I want the Alliance party to be relevant
:09:32. > :09:36.and I will continue to do a good job in Justice. Those are the key things
:09:37. > :09:40.for Northern Ireland, moving forward and not falling out over the past in
:09:41. > :09:43.a way which stops us moving forward together.
:09:44. > :09:46.Thank you. Let's hear from our guests now, the commentator Newton
:09:47. > :09:54.Emerson and Dr Cathy Gormley-Heenan from the University of Ulster. Hard
:09:55. > :10:00.to know where to start, isn't it? Let us talk about Peter Hain and the
:10:01. > :10:04.issue of whether or not soldiers involved in Bloody Sunday should be
:10:05. > :10:08.prosecuted. You can understand it will create another political
:10:09. > :10:15.altercation? Yes, there is no reason why Bloody
:10:16. > :10:18.Sunday should be treated any differently to any other
:10:19. > :10:22.atrocities. The Unionist position is that special treatment shouldn't be
:10:23. > :10:27.given to the victims so why should it be given to the perpetrators. It
:10:28. > :10:32.is an attempt to create another de facto amnesty. The object of letting
:10:33. > :10:36.off the soldiers is that nothing could be prosecuted from 40 years
:10:37. > :10:43.ago. Why would that be the case? We are prosecuting radio celebrities
:10:44. > :10:50.from 40 years ago so are you saying a multiple murder is less serious?
:10:51. > :10:56.It is revealing of a new agenda to have a de facto amnesty but that is
:10:57. > :11:00.not legally or politically possible. It is hard for people to pick their
:11:01. > :11:05.way through the minefield of this latest row. You have Peter Hain
:11:06. > :11:09.saying that all of this was in the public domain and people should have
:11:10. > :11:12.known about it and looked at what was being said in Westminster and
:11:13. > :11:20.Stormont. Then Peter Robinson says today in the Sunday Times and
:11:21. > :11:26.quoting answers Peter Hain gave that he says were less than open and
:11:27. > :11:31.honest. How do you get at the facts? Hopefully, that is what the enquiry
:11:32. > :11:39.will attempt to do. I have read about the on-the-run letters years
:11:40. > :11:42.ago in a law journal. People interested in the peace process
:11:43. > :11:47.probably did have a sense that something was happening. It is like
:11:48. > :11:51.many things in Northern Ireland, it flares up at a particular point.
:11:52. > :11:58.This past week, the issue has been more than anything that there needs
:11:59. > :12:04.to be a renewed impetus on a process with which we deal with the past. We
:12:05. > :12:12.have been dealing in with it since 1998 but in a piecemeal way. Maybe a
:12:13. > :12:17.bit too pragmatic and approach. Briefly, Peter Robinson made it
:12:18. > :12:20.clear he would resign if he did not get a satisfactory result --
:12:21. > :12:27.response from the government. He said he got the response he was
:12:28. > :12:32.looking for and his demands were met, where they?
:12:33. > :12:39.I genuinely believe he was ready to resign, but not to bring down the
:12:40. > :12:45.executive. He wanted to reassert his mandate. That is why his credit --
:12:46. > :12:50.threat was read -- credible. I genuinely think he would have hit
:12:51. > :13:00.the button for an election. Not to bring it down. Briefly, what about
:13:01. > :13:06.Haass? Is it dead in the water? Mike Nesbitt thinks it is but it is an
:13:07. > :13:11.opportunity to decouple some issues. The flags and parades were to
:13:12. > :13:18.difficult to include as a composite block. It is an opportunity to
:13:19. > :13:21.decouple those things and it is a new way to deal with the past.
:13:22. > :13:26.Thank you, both. Now, let's pause for a moment as Conor Macauley takes
:13:27. > :13:33.a look back at a turbulent week in local politics in 60 Seconds.
:13:34. > :13:39.The stormy weather makes life tough for fishermen and they appealed to
:13:40. > :13:43.Stormont for help. We have had to rely on charities based in England
:13:44. > :13:46.to come and help us says something about our politicians and the
:13:47. > :13:50.executive. A different type of storm is brewing
:13:51. > :13:57.on the hill as the case against the man accused of the Hyde Park bombing
:13:58. > :14:01.collapsed. John Downey is one of several on-the-run buts who were
:14:02. > :14:05.told they were not being sought by police. Peter Robinson threatened to
:14:06. > :14:11.resign when he hand -- heard. I am not prepared to be the head of
:14:12. > :14:16.a government kept in the dark. The deputy called for calm claiming
:14:17. > :14:20.others did know. We were the only people who knew
:14:21. > :14:26.about this. David Cameron wants to know more and
:14:27. > :14:30.appointed a judge to lead a review. I agree with Peter Robinson that it
:14:31. > :14:33.is right to get to the bottom of what happened.
:14:34. > :14:42.Conor Macauley reporting. An attempt in the House of Lords to extend
:14:43. > :14:46.libel laws to Northern Ireland was last week withdrawn after a
:14:47. > :14:50.government minister warned that the Stormont executive must have primacy
:14:51. > :14:55.on the issue. When the Defamation Act wrote about first major changes
:14:56. > :15:03.to the UK libel laws since the 19th century, Sammy Wilson halted its
:15:04. > :15:07.extension here. Joining me now to discuss this is Lord Bew, who is
:15:08. > :15:11.part of that attempt in the Lords to extend reform here, and the lawyer
:15:12. > :15:17.Paul Tweed who's opposed. Why was the attempt made at
:15:18. > :15:20.Westminster? When you get a Northern Ireland
:15:21. > :15:25.provisions Bill going through the house, and it is a rare advent, it
:15:26. > :15:30.is inevitable people will make the attempt. There is a lot of feeling
:15:31. > :15:37.in the House of Lords on this issue, there is an attempt to have a debate
:15:38. > :15:40.about it at least. The truth is, the matter is now over. The Minister
:15:41. > :15:44.made it clear for a number of reasons that they will not intervene
:15:45. > :15:52.and it is now a matter for the assembly. A report will be set up
:15:53. > :15:56.from the Law Commission with a distinguished academic to work on
:15:57. > :16:01.it. That is where the debate and focus now is. It was worth airing
:16:02. > :16:06.last week again at Westminster and that concerns exist about freedom of
:16:07. > :16:10.expression here. It is now at a weaker level than the rest of the
:16:11. > :16:15.UK. What is your basic concern?
:16:16. > :16:20.The fundamental concern for me personally as an academic, there is
:16:21. > :16:27.an issue about academic freedom and what academics can save. It is also
:16:28. > :16:33.about political and historical matters. This bill extends academic
:16:34. > :16:37.freedom. It defends the idea of a public interest defence for the
:16:38. > :16:42.media as a whole. If we are going to deal with the past, particularly
:16:43. > :16:48.here, one has to have the freest possible discussion and there really
:16:49. > :16:53.isn't any question that historically the courts have been used to limit
:16:54. > :16:58.in some way of the amount of freedom... As far as all parties are
:16:59. > :17:03.concerned in London, it is supposed to be the correct context for public
:17:04. > :17:07.debate. The absence of this legislation curtails free and open
:17:08. > :17:13.discussion, critically about the key issue of past?
:17:14. > :17:17.In my opinion, it was outrageous that these peers attempted to impose
:17:18. > :17:23.legislation Northern Ireland which, I should say, has been rejected by
:17:24. > :17:28.Scotland. The Republic of Ireland's laws are broadly similar to our own
:17:29. > :17:32.as they currently stand so there is no need for change whatsoever. As
:17:33. > :17:38.far as our libel laws are concerned, there are plenty of
:17:39. > :17:42.safety mechanisms built in. I act for both plaintiffs and newspapers
:17:43. > :17:47.and just before Christmas I acted for a national newspaper in
:17:48. > :17:54.defending a case of so-called" is libel tourism" . We successfully did
:17:55. > :17:58.that. So the law as it currently stands is effective. My big concern
:17:59. > :18:03.is access to justice for the ordinary man on the street. We talk
:18:04. > :18:09.about academics and scientists and I'd sample size with those views. If
:18:10. > :18:14.he feels there is a genuine threat -- I sympathise with those views. I
:18:15. > :18:20.would be happy to countenance specific change in the law but not a
:18:21. > :18:24.whole scale introduction of an owner is law that completely makes it
:18:25. > :18:29.impossible for the ordinary person to take legal proceedings here in
:18:30. > :18:34.Northern Ireland. Finally, a key change is the removal of the jury
:18:35. > :18:38.is. I sat on all the Ministry of Justice panels in London when they
:18:39. > :18:43.debated the English change to the law and I did not get one argument
:18:44. > :18:47.that convinced me that juries were not doing a good job. It is very
:18:48. > :18:52.significant that the one thing the press are worried about here are
:18:53. > :18:55.their readers, the general public, deciding whether they have performed
:18:56. > :19:03.properly and fairly in terms of their reporting.
:19:04. > :19:07.You, as a libel lawyer, may find yourself very busy if the status quo
:19:08. > :19:11.is main stained -- maintained. There will not be a rush of
:19:12. > :19:17.oligarchs coming to Northern Ireland, believe me. I work from
:19:18. > :19:24.London, Dublin and Belfast and less than 5% of my work takes place in
:19:25. > :19:27.Belfast. I don't mind. I will work within the law and what the law
:19:28. > :19:33.gives to me but I cannot get justice for the general public where they
:19:34. > :19:38.have no access to legal aid. We have always been treated differently in
:19:39. > :19:43.Northern Ireland. We cannot recover insurance premiums so we have always
:19:44. > :19:47.been treated differently. How do you respond? He can
:19:48. > :19:53.understand your specific and concern about academics but what about
:19:54. > :19:57.members of the public? He feels he represents their best interests and
:19:58. > :20:02.an extension of this legislation would not serve them?
:20:03. > :20:09.The whole problem with libel law is the conflict between the need to
:20:10. > :20:13.have an -- a right to defend your reputation and the freedom of
:20:14. > :20:17.debate. After a long process of examination we have come up with a
:20:18. > :20:21.new position in Westminster. If you say the Republic of Ireland is
:20:22. > :20:26.different, that is right. We see massive scandals in the Republic of
:20:27. > :20:29.Ireland and there was not one serious article in the press
:20:30. > :20:33.anticipating anything leading up to the whole area of the collapse of
:20:34. > :20:37.the economy and bankers and so on. Does this tell you you had the
:20:38. > :20:43.requisite level of freedoms of discussion here? It is true that
:20:44. > :20:49.Scotland is different but it has its own tradition of law which is
:20:50. > :20:55.elaborate. We have had UK law here essentially. You are not asking our
:20:56. > :21:01.judiciary to operate on an old second-hand car. The media in London
:21:02. > :21:05.will be operating according to the new model and it creates a number of
:21:06. > :21:11.anomalies and difficulties for the judiciary here in Belfast.
:21:12. > :21:17.We are not the same as Scotland, what about that point, nor the legal
:21:18. > :21:24.system -- system in the Republic of Ireland. Our law is broadly similar
:21:25. > :21:29.to Scotland and Ireland. Putting this in perspective, the number of
:21:30. > :21:34.libel actions that have come before the courts in Belfast over the last
:21:35. > :21:37.30 years are probably to every decade at Oaks. A survey was carried
:21:38. > :21:47.out in England about the so-called libel tourism -- every decade at
:21:48. > :21:53.most. This is a non-issue. A non-problem. The press are sensitive
:21:54. > :21:57.about it to protect their financial issue -- interests but it is not an
:21:58. > :22:07.issue. Thank you both for joining us.
:22:08. > :22:14.Newton says it is not an issue. I am fed up defending libel reform
:22:15. > :22:18.because everyone thinks it is about journalists. The Defamation Act is
:22:19. > :22:25.about protecting academics and scientists. I follow alarming cases
:22:26. > :22:28.where scientists were pursued because companies didn't like the
:22:29. > :22:32.results. There are thousands of jobs like that in Northern Ireland in a
:22:33. > :22:38.university and Major Forbes -- firms. It will only take one of
:22:39. > :22:43.these ridiculous cases to make as an international pariah and a similar
:22:44. > :22:48.risk applies to IT. Those industries need to get off the face -- fence
:22:49. > :22:54.and defend their interests because the media cannot do it alone.
:22:55. > :23:01.Mike Nesbitt's billows out for consultation. We know that it is a
:23:02. > :23:07.big responsibility on our show ministers shoulders? They should
:23:08. > :23:10.take his day from the deliberations in the house of Lords because they
:23:11. > :23:16.have much experience in the reading of these bills. We have no formal
:23:17. > :23:19.opposition or an effective opposition, the media plays that
:23:20. > :24:01.role and anything that Nowadays we take the issue of
:24:02. > :24:04.fairness in employment for granted. I have never felt it important
:24:05. > :24:07.to ask anybody's religion when I'm going to employ them
:24:08. > :24:09.as a sheet metal worker. This is the story of fair
:24:10. > :24:12.employment in Northern Ireland. it masked a much greater problem
:24:13. > :24:18.in terms of educational disadvantage. The Fair Employment Act of 1989
:24:19. > :24:22.changed Northern Ireland's society dramatically.
:24:23. > :24:25.We still have a way to go. But are we on the right track?
:24:26. > :24:32.Absolutely. What does Austria want?
:24:33. > :24:41.I mean, what does she want?