:01:02. > :01:04.And with their thoughts on it all, the economist Paul Gosling and
:01:05. > :01:16.academic Pete Shirlow. The loss of some 300 jobs at the
:01:17. > :01:20.Driver and Vehicle Agency could be just the tip of the iceberg if
:01:21. > :01:23.welfare reform is not implemented here, says the DUP. The former
:01:24. > :01:26.Finance Minister, Sammy Wilson, has forecast that 1600 civil servants
:01:27. > :01:29.employed by the Department of Work and Pensions could be in danger of
:01:30. > :01:32.redundancy - but is he being alarmist? With me now is Mr Wilson's
:01:33. > :01:45.successor as Finance Minister, Simon Hamilton. Thank you for joining us.
:01:46. > :01:49.Let's start with the job losses in the DVA. Did the announcement that
:01:50. > :01:52.we were losing 300 jobs - most of them in Coleraine - come as a
:01:53. > :02:00.surprise? We think we knew for a long time that the jobs were under
:02:01. > :02:11.threat. We are mounted a strong case. We knew that the government
:02:12. > :02:15.and Westminster wanted to cut costs. Some of those jobs could have been
:02:16. > :02:19.done in Coleraine and elsewhere in Northern Ireland. We have a good
:02:20. > :02:26.track record of doing work like that. We also do it for benefits and
:02:27. > :02:32.for Social Security as well. You made a robust case, you had a
:02:33. > :02:39.petition of 40,000 signatures objecting to the change. It did not
:02:40. > :02:52.make any difference. I think a good case was made. It was not as a prize
:02:53. > :03:05.that the government were looking at this. It does show that this
:03:06. > :03:12.decision has been not -- has not been taken here but has been taken
:03:13. > :03:15.by Westminster. There will be a ruthlessness if we do not in
:03:16. > :03:22.Northern Ireland do things in welfare reform. The situation could
:03:23. > :03:27.get worse because in a speech on Thursday night, you warrant that the
:03:28. > :03:33.next four years could eclipse the last four years. It is not the sort
:03:34. > :03:37.of message I like to put out there, but I would feel my job if I do not
:03:38. > :03:42.stress that is to be ball. We are getting lots of good evidence that
:03:43. > :03:51.the economy is growing, unemployment is falling, the housing department
:03:52. > :03:58.-- area is going in the right direction as well. We are about
:03:59. > :04:04.halfway down that road of austerity and in Northern Ireland we will feel
:04:05. > :04:09.the impact for the next four years. The Treasury has signalled the 70%
:04:10. > :04:18.of expenditure for the next few years. What could that mean for
:04:19. > :04:23.Northern Ireland? If you look at the projections for 2015-16 where we do
:04:24. > :04:28.have data, we have ?100,000 taken out of our budget. That is coming on
:04:29. > :04:33.the back of all the cuts that we have had to deal over the last
:04:34. > :04:42.couple of years. It presents us with a choice, going for a crude front
:04:43. > :04:48.line cut which can be designed to protect the centre of government we
:04:49. > :04:53.can look at what government does and look at making changes more
:04:54. > :04:54.effectively and efficiently. The government has made a promise to be
:04:55. > :05:07.balanced the economy. government has made a promise to be
:05:08. > :05:12.expect. We would expect to see a reduced dependence on public sector
:05:13. > :05:17.employment. We have a large public sector in Northern Ireland. It has
:05:18. > :05:21.been too large for too long. The private sector has to be grown, that
:05:22. > :05:27.is why we are seeing a reduction in corporation tax. It is a challenge
:05:28. > :05:36.looking from where we are coming from. A third of our employment is
:05:37. > :05:41.in the public sector, it is hard to be balanced in terms of the private
:05:42. > :05:45.sector. I am determined that public sector which has provided a cushion
:05:46. > :05:55.of the last couple of years, the private sector has struggled in this
:05:56. > :06:00.country. That can be seen as a drag. If it is reformed, if we can make it
:06:01. > :06:08.improve, it will be a beneficial contribution to the economy. It is
:06:09. > :06:15.pretty bad, Sammy Wilson, your predecessor highlighted the risk. He
:06:16. > :06:22.said 1600 jobs are at risk in the civil service. Do you agree with
:06:23. > :06:26.them? I do agree with him. I have been giving the same message over
:06:27. > :06:31.the last few months. The lack of leadership shown by parties like
:06:32. > :06:44.Sinn Fein are threatening... What about the DUP? We have achieved
:06:45. > :06:51.quite a lot, we have flexibility that would ensure that the bedroom
:06:52. > :06:58.tax does not affect people who are already getting hit by other benefit
:06:59. > :07:02.cuts in Northern Ireland. Sinn Fein and others are refusing to move
:07:03. > :07:08.forward. That is not just threatening further reductions, we
:07:09. > :07:20.have lost ?15 million this year. We will lose more in the next few years
:07:21. > :07:21.have lost ?15 million this year. We doing Social Security work on behalf
:07:22. > :07:26.of customers in England and Wales could be lost. They are likely to be
:07:27. > :07:31.lost. As we have seen with the DVA this week, why would an English
:07:32. > :07:37.minister want to keep jobs in Northern Ireland. Interesting
:07:38. > :07:46.figures. You have set aside ?50 million for the first penalty. It
:07:47. > :07:56.goes up incrementally, it will increase to 1,000,000,005 years?
:07:57. > :08:05.Yes. -- ?1 billion in five years. In five years it will have gone up.
:08:06. > :08:15.Never mind what the Chancellor will pass on in terms of the cuts across
:08:16. > :08:19.the whole of the UK. These are self-inflicted fines which have been
:08:20. > :08:24.as a result of a lack of leadership from parties like Sinn Fein. It will
:08:25. > :08:29.have a real affect on people on the ground. It will have a devastating
:08:30. > :08:36.effect on public services Northern Ireland. It is not a lack of willing
:08:37. > :08:43.this on my part or members of my party. -- willingness. We have been
:08:44. > :08:52.making this clear to the SDLP, Sinn Fein and others. We cannot afford to
:08:53. > :08:59.take this hit, vulnerable people will suffer because of the impact of
:09:00. > :09:12.this on public service deliveries. Thank you very much. Paul, what do
:09:13. > :09:16.you make of those figures? It demonstrates the difficulty we have
:09:17. > :09:22.with devolution. Theoretically, although we have devolution,
:09:23. > :09:24.politicians have very little choice to implement the vast majority of
:09:25. > :09:36.the welfare reforms. to implement the vast majority of
:09:37. > :09:41.to work together. I think that is what the focus in Northern Ireland
:09:42. > :09:45.will be, not whether one particular party is blocking one particular
:09:46. > :09:55.part of welfare reform. But an ability to work together to better
:09:56. > :09:58.Northern Ireland. Sinn Fein take a very different view and says the
:09:59. > :10:02.other parties are causing the problems. Somebody needs to do
:10:03. > :10:08.something very quickly to sort things out. If there had been a
:10:09. > :10:13.solution at around Richard Haass, these would sort themselves out. We
:10:14. > :10:17.have a political system that is not functioning. The failure to reach an
:10:18. > :10:36.agreement on welfare reforms just a symptom of that. Pete, how do you
:10:37. > :10:43.see it? I think given the complex geography is we have, the impacts of
:10:44. > :10:55.this will be even. It will affect constituents more. The other issue
:10:56. > :11:01.is, what is the response to this in terms of the third sector and how we
:11:02. > :11:07.develop other areas in the public sector so we have more than just the
:11:08. > :11:13.argument about we said no, you said yes. We have seen success in other
:11:14. > :11:18.areas, other parts of Europe where they have looked at different ways
:11:19. > :11:26.to improve the economy. Do you see any sign of political will or desire
:11:27. > :11:39.to make that choice? There is a lack of knowledge just -- not just with
:11:40. > :11:51.politicians. We have not come to terms with our modern
:11:52. > :11:57.Simon? Is there any truth in that politicians have been focused
:11:58. > :12:02.elsewhere. We are putting ourselves at a disadvantage? What you
:12:03. > :12:08.described as the other issues are incredibly important. How they fit
:12:09. > :12:17.into the grand scheme of politics in Northern Ireland. Are they holding
:12:18. > :12:22.us hostage? We have been in Stormont for seven, coming on eight years. We
:12:23. > :12:30.have made progress in bread in the areas. This is not an issue we are
:12:31. > :12:35.facing. Given the issues are steady is giving us, reality is starting to
:12:36. > :12:39.bite. We will have to make difficult decisions, some that we may not like
:12:40. > :12:45.in their entirety but we will have to do something about. What we have
:12:46. > :12:49.done in terms of welfare of, and flexibility is that we have
:12:50. > :12:53.negotiated, shows that we can use devolution to work again some of the
:12:54. > :13:03.worst things we come against from 's -- Westminster. The cost of not
:13:04. > :13:11.receiving and losing ?1 billion will make it incredibly difficult for us
:13:12. > :13:23.to take better decisions on the cuts. This is not the only issue. We
:13:24. > :13:27.need to improve social housing. We have blockages in other areas across
:13:28. > :13:34.the reform. Thank you all very much indeed.
:13:35. > :13:37.St Patrick's Day has turned into St Patrick's 'Week' it seems,
:13:38. > :13:40.especially for politicians from this island who made their annual
:13:41. > :13:42.pilgrimage to Washington for a series of high profile engagements.
:13:43. > :13:45.The Taoiseach met President Obama while the First and Deputy First
:13:46. > :13:49.Ministers met Vice President Biden. The Secretary of State was there too
:13:50. > :13:52.and Martina Purdy asked her if she agrees with Richard Haass's comment
:13:53. > :13:56.that the peace process here might not be quite as robust as people
:13:57. > :13:56.think. No, I think there are in many parts of the
:13:57. > :14:10.think. No, I think there are in many particular model to other parts of
:14:11. > :14:13.the world. I genuinely think that political readership in Northern
:14:14. > :14:16.Ireland should be proud of what they have achieved. But they also
:14:17. > :14:20.recognise there is more work to be done. That is something that
:14:21. > :14:25.President Clinton emphasised in his visit to Northern Ireland. It is
:14:26. > :14:45.something the Prime Minister recognised. Ensuring that many more
:14:46. > :14:52.children have ways out of their barriers based on religion. What I
:14:53. > :14:58.have been taking to Washington as a message is that this is what has
:14:59. > :15:07.been achieved in Northern Ireland, real progress. A recognition that
:15:08. > :15:14.further work could yield tremendous further benefits and taking Northern
:15:15. > :15:16.Ireland further forward, that is a message that has been
:15:17. > :15:23.sympathetically received by Washington. It seems we are further
:15:24. > :15:29.back than we were a few months ago. What is this that is of the six
:15:30. > :15:32.cases, can you shed any light? The controversy around OTRs and what
:15:33. > :15:37.they have been positive than a setback. There still appears to be a
:15:38. > :15:44.willingness from the party of all political leaders in Northern
:15:45. > :15:51.Ireland to work forward on this. I hope that the OTR crisis will not
:15:52. > :15:56.see the party leaders meetings abandoned altogether. On those
:15:57. > :16:02.excuses, we have set up an enquiry, headed up by one of the most senior
:16:03. > :16:09.and well respected judges in the country. We are determined to
:16:10. > :16:12.provide the facts of how the scheme operated. Including what the current
:16:13. > :16:13.position is in relation to cases which
:16:14. > :16:29.that London is not handling those excuses now? No, they are not.
:16:30. > :16:31.The Secretary of State talking to Martina Purdy.
:16:32. > :16:34.His interest in Northern Ireland was long-standing and he helped keep the
:16:35. > :16:38.issue on the Westminster agenda - just one of the many tributes paid
:16:39. > :16:40.to Tony Benn who died on Friday. During his long and sometimes
:16:41. > :16:44.controversial political career, Mr Benn gave support to Sinn Fein and
:16:45. > :16:48.advocated a united Ireland. But despite - or maybe because of that -
:16:49. > :16:50.he opposed the Labour Party formally organising here. Mark Langhammer
:16:51. > :16:55.campaigned for many years to change the policy and is with me now.
:16:56. > :17:00.Welcome to the programme. You knew Tony Benn a little bit, you met him
:17:01. > :17:08.a couple of times. I met him at a conference in Blackpool in a tearoom
:17:09. > :17:14.with a senior education official. Who was from north Belfast and who
:17:15. > :17:18.had access with all of these men. We met in context of the Labour Party
:17:19. > :17:24.policy at the time. It was for unity by consent. It meant that the Labour
:17:25. > :17:31.Party government had the vote. Ed Miliband was governor of Northern
:17:32. > :17:37.Ireland. It was a colonial position. Eamon had spoken with two wings,
:17:38. > :17:46.there was our view that Labour should get in and contest
:17:47. > :18:03.elections. Those with the view that Labour should get out. How did he
:18:04. > :18:07.justify it to you? He topped about socialism and Chrissie. How did he
:18:08. > :18:18.see his position about a democratic one? -- he spoke about socialism and
:18:19. > :18:26.democracy. He was a very humorous man. The one thing about Tony Benn,
:18:27. > :18:27.he was very rooted in the movement. He was really from the Methodist
:18:28. > :18:44.tradition than anything else. His He was really from the Methodist
:18:45. > :18:50.of the day. He was a conviction politician, he was quite partisan
:18:51. > :18:55.politician, I think. He was an national figure in the way that
:18:56. > :19:00.nobody else in the Labour Party was. You agreed with them in terms of
:19:01. > :19:05.left right politics. He was a bit of a hero in terms of that. Not really.
:19:06. > :19:12.At the critical time, I think Tony Benn did the wrong thing. What he
:19:13. > :19:17.said that he was a cynical as and he supported as a technology Minister,
:19:18. > :19:24.Meridian. Whenever the Bevan Atlee consensus started to break down in
:19:25. > :19:30.the 70s. It was about full employment, the NHS, putting people
:19:31. > :19:35.first, essentially. At a certain stage the labour movement was
:19:36. > :19:44.working at a surly. -- adversarial way. There was Barbara Kassel and
:19:45. > :19:50.Ted Heath, at a critical time, he voted and went against bullet and
:19:51. > :19:55.industrial democracy and effectively open the door to Thatcherism.
:19:56. > :20:07.-- Bullock. Insofar as that he was able to bring Sinn Fein in from the
:20:08. > :20:11.political called, was his contribution helpful or not? I think
:20:12. > :20:17.it was a good contribution through his diaries. When Callaghan visited
:20:18. > :20:22.Northern Ireland, you will remember that footage of him speaking out of
:20:23. > :20:28.the window, at that stage Callaghan was introduced with the notion that
:20:29. > :20:33.Labour should govern. When it got into the government -- Cabinet
:20:34. > :20:38.meeting, the critical thing was avoiding responsibility.
:20:39. > :20:46.The Foreign Minister said exactly the same thing, keep it arms length.
:20:47. > :20:50.Keep it out there. If you did nothing else, you opened a window on
:20:51. > :20:52.the adverse resolve the middle-class at that time. Let's hear from Paul
:20:53. > :20:57.and Pete. at that time. Let's hear from Paul
:20:58. > :21:07.He was to a lot of people and at that time. Let's hear from Paul
:21:08. > :21:10.contradictions. There were a whole case of those. His stanza Northern
:21:11. > :21:16.Ireland did change somewhat over time. He called for United stations
:21:17. > :21:21.to come in here. He was when I met once in England many years ago he
:21:22. > :21:26.did have a capacity to learn. He made a speech once that I was that,
:21:27. > :21:34.it was talking about unionists as colonialists. I challenged him on
:21:35. > :21:39.it. I said my family have been in in Northern Ireland and 500 years in
:21:40. > :21:46.which time we have become indigence. He would engage with you, but he
:21:47. > :21:57.would be sharp if he disagreed with you. -- indigenous. We have to
:21:58. > :22:03.remember, an intellectual and capable man. But also had his
:22:04. > :22:06.faults. I met Tony many times. He was a lovely man and should be
:22:07. > :22:12.remembered for his engaging personality, the fact that he
:22:13. > :22:16.brought ideas of democracy and accountability to the forefront and
:22:17. > :22:24.we should remember that way. Let's take a look back at the week in 60
:22:25. > :22:28.Seconds with Rosy Billingham. We are not going away. A message
:22:29. > :22:37.from victims as a widower accounts to MLAs how she lost her husband. --
:22:38. > :22:43.a Wood Hill. 17 bullets were put into his back. Richard has had a
:22:44. > :22:48.stark warning for us in Washington. The passage of time will only create
:22:49. > :22:52.an environment and social division will intensify, violence will
:22:53. > :22:58.increase. Jonathan Powell joined the peace process stands by his claim
:22:59. > :23:08.that the DUP knew about OTR course versions. What we want to try and do
:23:09. > :23:11.is have politicians solving some of these problems of the past, not
:23:12. > :23:13.trying to beat each other over the head over it. An enquiry into
:23:14. > :24:30.trying to beat each other over the not sharing it very well.
:24:31. > :24:33.Meet one of the most famous storytellers of all time.
:24:34. > :24:44.discover another of his classic stories.
:24:45. > :24:47.Plus a chance to see the secrets of how the animators