:00:37. > :00:41.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Walls are being
:00:42. > :00:44.re-painted in Belfast as Gerry Adams begins his fourth day in police
:00:45. > :00:48.custody in connection with one of the most brutal and shocking murders
:00:49. > :01:00.of the Troubles. That's our top story.
:01:01. > :01:03.He may have got egg on his face this week but Nigel Farage is a serious
:01:04. > :01:05.electoral threat in this month's elections. I'll ask the Conservative
:01:06. > :01:08.Party Chairman Grant Shapps how worried he is.
:01:09. > :01:12.And we're on the trail of Nick Clegg. You were voted the best
:01:13. > :01:17.looking party leader and the most likely to be a good
:01:18. > :01:20.And in Northern Ireland: As the deadline for police to charge or
:01:21. > :01:23.release Gerry Adams gets closer, we deadline for police to charge or
:01:24. > :01:24.talk to the five Executive parties about the possible impact on
:01:25. > :01:30.Stormont and policing. and independence. We have a table
:01:31. > :01:37.full of Euro candidates here to debate what it means for London.
:01:38. > :01:40.And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political panel in the
:01:41. > :01:43.business - Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. They'll be
:01:44. > :01:49.throwing metaphorical rotten eggs into the twittersphere.
:01:50. > :01:52.First this morning - Gerry Adams, President of Sinn Fein, has spent a
:01:53. > :01:55.fourth night in police custody after he was arrested in connection with
:01:56. > :02:08.the killing of Jean McConville more than 40 years ago. Sinn Fein has
:02:09. > :02:10.claimed that the arrest is politically motivated coming, as it
:02:11. > :02:14.does, during local and European election campaigns. Northern
:02:15. > :02:16.Ireland's deputy first minister, Martin McGuinness, has indicated he
:02:17. > :02:19.might review the party's support for policing in the province if Gerry
:02:20. > :02:22.Adams is charged. The Jean McConville murder was one of the
:02:23. > :02:24.most notorious cases of the Troubles.
:02:25. > :02:31.The widowed mother of ten was kidnapped from her home in December
:02:32. > :02:37.1972, never to be seen alive again. The IRA denied involvement but in
:02:38. > :02:44.1999 admitted it had murdered her and several others, known as the
:02:45. > :02:47.Disappeared. Before his death, the former IRA commander Brendan Hughes
:02:48. > :02:55.pointed the finger at Gerry Adams, claiming:
:02:56. > :03:09.In April this year, either Bell was charged with aiding and abetting the
:03:10. > :03:13.murder. -- Ivor Bell. Gerry Adams has always insisted he is innocent
:03:14. > :03:18.of any part in the abduction and killing all burial of Mrs
:03:19. > :03:20.McConville. We were hoping to speak to the
:03:21. > :03:24.Northern Ireland Secretary, Theresa Villiers, but having agreed to do an
:03:25. > :03:31.interview with us this morning, she pulled out. But we are joined from
:03:32. > :03:36.Belfast by Sinn Fein's Alex Maskey. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. And
:03:37. > :03:48.the police just doing their job by questioning Gerry Adams? Gerry Adams
:03:49. > :03:52.said publicly some time ago that he was available to speak to the
:03:53. > :03:58.police, but that is not what this is about at the moment, because what we
:03:59. > :04:02.have here is clearly evidence in our mind of political interference in
:04:03. > :04:06.what should be due process. Gerry Adams made it clear some time ago he
:04:07. > :04:12.wanted to speak to the police, it was available at any time, and yet
:04:13. > :04:16.that request was not taken up until three weeks into an election and we
:04:17. > :04:21.believe that was deliberately orchestrated by a small number of
:04:22. > :04:28.people. What evidence can you present this morning that proves
:04:29. > :04:35.that claim? The direct circumstances Gerry Adams finds himself in at the
:04:36. > :04:45.moment, take that in stark contrast when they have dealt with members of
:04:46. > :04:54.the British Army for instance... That is just circumstantial. The
:04:55. > :04:58.PSNI know that the soldiers involved in that and a number of other
:04:59. > :05:04.high-profile killings of citizens here, and not one of those people
:05:05. > :05:09.has been arrested. In fact any of the people who were interviewed were
:05:10. > :05:20.interviewed by request. There was a stark contrast, in terms of how they
:05:21. > :05:25.have dealt with the British military involving state killings. We haven't
:05:26. > :05:30.got too much time. Sinn Fein said it would review its support for the
:05:31. > :05:35.PSNI if Gerry Adams is charged. That sounds like political interference
:05:36. > :05:41.in the police process. It's not because we have a clear mandate from
:05:42. > :05:46.the people who elect us. Policing has been an important part of the
:05:47. > :05:52.peace process here for many years, Sinn Fein plays an important role in
:05:53. > :05:58.local policing partnerships. We negotiate to make sure we have
:05:59. > :06:04.powers transferred here to elected representatives in the north. It is
:06:05. > :06:09.a long way to go before we have policing highly accountable, and
:06:10. > :06:26.making sure they deliver a very impartial service. How will he react
:06:27. > :06:31.if Gerry Adams is charged? I am still trying to get a clear answer.
:06:32. > :06:38.If Gerry Adams is charged, will you withdraw support for the Northern
:06:39. > :06:43.Ireland police service? We view this as a serious situation and a serious
:06:44. > :06:48.ongoing situation and we will monitor how this pans out. We have a
:06:49. > :06:52.very important role to play to support the police service here. We
:06:53. > :06:59.have done consistently, worked with them on a daily basis, but we will
:07:00. > :07:03.not accept political interference by a small number of people in the
:07:04. > :07:11.police who are undermining the police. We will not accept political
:07:12. > :07:17.policing. If there was evidence, and I emphasise the word if, because we
:07:18. > :07:21.have seen none, but if there were evidence to justify Gerry Adams
:07:22. > :07:26.being charged, why should he not be charged? It is my understanding from
:07:27. > :07:32.the family of Gerry Adams that there has not been a single shred of
:07:33. > :07:40.evidence put forward. I understand that, but if there was evidence, why
:07:41. > :07:44.should he not be charged? You put that caveat yourself and then you
:07:45. > :07:50.expect me to speculate, there is no way I will do that. The fact of the
:07:51. > :07:54.matter is there hasn't been one single shred of evidence put to
:07:55. > :07:59.Gerry Adams in the last few days, in fact what has been put to him is a
:08:00. > :08:04.range of issues of newspaper cuttings, books, statements made
:08:05. > :08:06.from people, including from people who didn't want their statements
:08:07. > :08:17.released until they have died. who didn't want their statements
:08:18. > :08:24.was charged, again I emphasise the word if, does the police process
:08:25. > :08:29.fall apart? The police process is a fragile entity, it requires work and
:08:30. > :08:30.we have been saying this publicly and privately with the Irish and
:08:31. > :08:45.British and privately with the Irish and
:08:46. > :08:47.process has to be nurtured and developed. We are not out of the
:08:48. > :08:53.woods yet. From a Republican point of view we have been working flat
:08:54. > :09:02.out. I just wanted a quick answer to my question, is a yes or no? What
:09:03. > :09:06.question I asking me? Is the peace process in jeopardy? It is fragile
:09:07. > :09:12.and I am not going to have words put into my mouth but I don't want to
:09:13. > :09:19.use. It has to be worked out and nurtured. Thank you for joining us.
:09:20. > :09:24.Nick Watt, you were a Northern Ireland correspondent like myself in
:09:25. > :09:28.days gone by. Where is this going to go? It shows how challenging the
:09:29. > :09:32.peace process is because on the one hand you have the unspeakable pain
:09:33. > :09:38.of the McConville family, but you also have the danger of not having
:09:39. > :09:42.mechanisms to deal with the past. South Africa is a good example, you
:09:43. > :09:46.have to have some mechanism to deal with the past because if you don't,
:09:47. > :09:57.you are going to have, as Sinn Fein have now, someone in a police cell
:09:58. > :10:00.but you don't have the arrests of the Bloody Sunday soldiers.
:10:01. > :10:08.Paramilitary prisoners were released after two years... We have seen no
:10:09. > :10:15.action against somebody accused of the Hyde Park bombings, it is not a
:10:16. > :10:22.one-way street. We have the decommissioning of IRA weapons by
:10:23. > :10:26.the IRA, therefore destroying crucial evidence. You have these
:10:27. > :10:31.inconsistencies because you don't have an mechanism for dealing with
:10:32. > :10:35.the past, but doing that is really difficult because of the pain of
:10:36. > :10:40.real people. Don't you get a feeling that here in London they are hoping
:10:41. > :10:44.he will not be charged? Definitely because it would be nice if
:10:45. > :10:53.everything went away, but the civil case of the family is taken out of
:10:54. > :10:56.the hands of the police. You can see here a real failure in Westminster
:10:57. > :11:05.to see this as anything other than settled. David Cameron we know sees
:11:06. > :11:08.himself as a chairman. I was speaking to a friend in Northern
:11:09. > :11:13.Ireland who said he has never met Gerry Adams and I think this is very
:11:14. > :11:19.revealing. They consider this as a settled issue that will not trouble
:11:20. > :11:24.Westminster again. It would be, but the relatives of the disappeared
:11:25. > :11:27.don't want it to be settled. This points to the reality that the
:11:28. > :11:33.Belfast agreement probably had to be done, but the moral price at which
:11:34. > :11:37.it was purchased was far greater than we were willing to admit during
:11:38. > :11:42.the euphoria. For a country that prides itself by the rule of law to
:11:43. > :11:50.tolerate the early release of prisoners and former pal and
:11:51. > :11:57.military -- paramilitaries, I think was a very serious matter. As for
:11:58. > :12:01.the PSNI, it only exists because its predecessor failed to command the
:12:02. > :12:08.confidence of the nationalist community. It is a very big deal if
:12:09. > :12:20.even the PSNI ends up falling into the same trap. We have to is leave
:12:21. > :12:23.it there I'm afraid. It was the Conservative's local election
:12:24. > :12:26.campaign launch on Friday, and what did David Cameron focus on? Burning
:12:27. > :12:29.local issues like the state of our roads, rubbish collection or care of
:12:30. > :12:32.the elderly? No. It was Europe. The Prime Minister re-iterated again his
:12:33. > :12:35.promise of an in-out referendum on our membership of the EU in 2017.
:12:36. > :12:38.And it's being reported this morning that he will share a platform with
:12:39. > :12:43.Nigel Farage in a pre-general election debate. Here's what the
:12:44. > :12:50.UKIP leader had to say about the issue when he was on the Marr Show
:12:51. > :12:54.this morning with Ed Miliband. David Cameron very often makes these vague
:12:55. > :13:01.promises, then doesn't deliver afterwards. I don't think he has any
:13:02. > :13:08.intention of allowing me into any of these debates. Perhaps Ed Miliband
:13:09. > :13:13.wants to debate? We have got to have the TV debates as we did join the
:13:14. > :13:17.last general election. I think David Cameron is doing everything he can
:13:18. > :13:22.to wriggle out of them. It is up to the broadcasters but whether they
:13:23. > :13:34.invite Nigel. My main desire is that the debates go ahead. We are joined
:13:35. > :13:40.now by Grant Shapps. Will he be included? The debates were not
:13:41. > :13:43.without problems, they took place during the campaign period and
:13:44. > :13:50.disrupted the flow of the campaign, taking it out of the regions, people
:13:51. > :13:53.getting to speak to the leaders so a longer period for that would be
:13:54. > :13:59.helpful. I think they are good idea and they should go ahead, but all of
:14:00. > :14:04.the negotiation about who is involved is yet to happen. So it is
:14:05. > :14:09.not a done deal that Nigel Farage will be included? That needs to be
:14:10. > :14:15.negotiated with the TV companies. The Conservatives believe we should
:14:16. > :14:23.have debates, but exactly the format and the timing, all of the -- that
:14:24. > :14:29.will be debated in the autumn, but first we have European elections,
:14:30. > :14:36.the Queen 's speech and a Scottish referendum. The local election
:14:37. > :14:46.campaign was launched on Friday. Why did you talk more about Europe than
:14:47. > :14:49.local councils? Both are important. The local elections are critically
:14:50. > :14:56.important for people, their local services. It is easy to forget, for
:14:57. > :14:59.example, that the council tax has been largely frozen since this
:15:00. > :15:04.Government came to power, a big contrast to Dublin under the
:15:05. > :15:11.previous Labour government. So why did you go on and on about Europe?
:15:12. > :15:20.Let me show you the poster used to launch your local election campaign.
:15:21. > :15:24.There it is, and in-out referendum on Europe, the day of the local
:15:25. > :15:29.elections, where is the word local? Is it in small print? I hear what
:15:30. > :15:33.you're saying, I am happy to be here to talk about the local elections.
:15:34. > :15:38.But you are right, they are on the same day, and not many people know
:15:39. > :15:42.that only by voting conservative can you get an in-out referendum. --
:15:43. > :15:51.Conservative. UKIP cannot deliver, we can, it is the same date, so
:15:52. > :15:54.people... This was the launch of the local election campaign. Why does
:15:55. > :15:58.the Prime Minister have to keep on promising something he has already
:15:59. > :16:05.promised? The actual referendum would be in 2017. He promised it
:16:06. > :16:09.before, he keeps repeating it because he knows people don't really
:16:10. > :16:13.trust him. I think it is a question of the fact that, actually, unless
:16:14. > :16:18.you remind people that the pledges there, that the only way to get an
:16:19. > :16:22.in-out referendum is to vote for it, this is a critical moment at
:16:23. > :16:28.which we need people to vote for that referendum if they want it. It
:16:29. > :16:32.is not the case, as I saw this morning, being said by Nigel Farage,
:16:33. > :16:37.that a referendum was promised before and not delivered. There was
:16:38. > :16:45.no referendum in the last manifesto. There will be in the next one. There
:16:46. > :16:53.was a cast-iron guarantee, in the Sun in 2006. Let's just clear that
:16:54. > :16:57.up... Once the Lisbon Treaty... In the Sun article, he said, we will
:16:58. > :17:02.have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Clearly, because that treaty
:17:03. > :17:07.had been passed before the general election, it is difficult to have a
:17:08. > :17:13.referendum on something in the past. We joined Europe in the 1970s,
:17:14. > :17:17.having a referendum on that! Look, that is about the future. Our
:17:18. > :17:22.relationship with Europe is absolutely critical. Most people in
:17:23. > :17:27.this country feel, I was not old enough to vote in that referendum,
:17:28. > :17:31.most of those who voted, they voted for a Common Market, that is not
:17:32. > :17:39.what we have got. We want to continue the work we have been doing
:17:40. > :17:42.in the EU Budget, what did UKIP do? They voted against it. We want more
:17:43. > :17:46.of those powers brought home, and we will put it to a referendum, and
:17:47. > :17:52.people will have to vote Conservative to get it. We have been
:17:53. > :17:55.looking at new research, almost two thirds of Conservative members are
:17:56. > :18:03.considering voting for UKIP, almost two thirds. I have a simple message
:18:04. > :18:13.here, which is this. If you vote for UKIP... Can we have it up? 30% are
:18:14. > :18:16.likely, 30% are possible. That is why it is important we are making
:18:17. > :18:21.these arguments. If you vote for UKIP, you are voting to take us
:18:22. > :18:26.further away from returning powers to this country, further from a
:18:27. > :18:30.referendum. It is support for Ed Miliband becoming Prime Minister,
:18:31. > :18:34.and he will do exactly what Labour have always done - hand away powers,
:18:35. > :18:39.and away the rebate for nothing in return, giving Europe even more so
:18:40. > :18:43.over the day-to-day affairs in Britain. Why are so many people
:18:44. > :18:47.considering voting UKIP? It is to hold your feet to the fire, they do
:18:48. > :18:51.not trust you on a referendum, so they will vote UKIP to force you to
:18:52. > :18:57.tap in your line. We have a very tough line. If I had said four years
:18:58. > :19:02.ago that this government would manage to cut the overall EU
:19:03. > :19:06.budget, would take us out of the bailout fund that Labour got us
:19:07. > :19:10.into, passing a law that no more powers can go to Europe without a
:19:11. > :19:14.referendum, if I had said that, people would say, I do not believe
:19:15. > :19:17.it will happen. Not only have we done these things, we are promising
:19:18. > :19:21.and in-out referendum, and the only way to get it is to vote
:19:22. > :19:26.Conservative. Nigel Farage has said, we can't change anything in
:19:27. > :19:31.Europe, and it is no wonder that the president of the European Commission
:19:32. > :19:36.has said, we love having these UKIP MEPs, because they don't turn up and
:19:37. > :19:42.vote, apart from when they vote against the cut in the budget. It
:19:43. > :19:46.goes beyond UKIP in your party, because this research also showed
:19:47. > :19:50.that those Conservative members most likely to vote for UKIP, they said
:19:51. > :19:54.they do not feel valued or respected by their own leadership, and they
:19:55. > :20:01.regard David Cameron as ideological eat more remote from them than UKIP.
:20:02. > :20:10.What I would say is look at that list... Let me take that step
:20:11. > :20:18.further. What people need our series solutions to serious problems. When
:20:19. > :20:23.people vote for a UKIP MEP, I will say, which one of the 40% of the
:20:24. > :20:28.MEPs who got in for UKIP last time are you voting for, the ones above
:20:29. > :20:32.left or defected, the ones have gone to jail? 40% have ended up not
:20:33. > :20:37.delivering. People have a right to know what to expect when they vote
:20:38. > :20:40.in these elections. They can look at our record at home, and this goes to
:20:41. > :20:47.the point you have raised about what we have done in Britain to get this
:20:48. > :20:50.economy back on track, recover from Labour's recession. We are prepared
:20:51. > :20:57.to take those decisions in Europe as well. Presumably, active
:20:58. > :21:03.Conservative members, they know that, so why do they not feel valued
:21:04. > :21:06.by the leadership? I spend time going up and down the country
:21:07. > :21:13.meeting Conservative members, and they are on the doorstep, last
:21:14. > :21:19.weekend 150 out in Enfield campaigning for the European and
:21:20. > :21:23.local elections... Why are they keen on UKIP? When I meet somebody who
:21:24. > :21:31.says that, not necessarily a member... Have you met members of
:21:32. > :21:40.say they will vote UKIP? No, but a vote for UKIP is... Do not do it,
:21:41. > :21:45.you will end up with Labour having more control, handing away powers to
:21:46. > :21:52.Europe. 51-year-old meeting members who say they will vote UKIP, you
:21:53. > :21:56.must be out of touch. -- if you are not meeting members. Some of your
:21:57. > :22:01.members are thinking of voting UKIP. I spend huge amount of time
:22:02. > :22:06.travelling around, I just told you about this action day in Enfield,
:22:07. > :22:11.where we had an enormous turnout. Those members were on the doorsteps
:22:12. > :22:16.pointing out that you can only get reform in Europe by voting
:22:17. > :22:21.Conservative. Labour and the Lib Dems will not deliver, UKIP can't,
:22:22. > :22:25.Conservatives will. You have not got that message across, because a
:22:26. > :22:34.YouGov poll shows, on Europe, who has the best policies? Tories 18%,
:22:35. > :22:40.Labour 19%, UKIP 27%. On the economy, Tories 27%, Labour 23, UKIP
:22:41. > :22:47.4. Why don't you shut up about Europe and talk about the economy?
:22:48. > :22:51.Look, on the 27th of May, we have European elections, as well as local
:22:52. > :22:54.elections. If I don't talk about the European elections, you would say
:22:55. > :22:57.what you said at the beginning about not talking about the local
:22:58. > :23:01.elections! These are serious elections, and the point I am tried
:23:02. > :23:06.to make is that the issues at stake are not peripheral, they are not
:23:07. > :23:10.unimportant. Our MEPs have been battling to cut red tape from a
:23:11. > :23:12.European level on small businesses, the same thing this government has
:23:13. > :23:15.been doing for small businesses domestic league, where for example
:23:16. > :23:22.every small business owner watching this show knows they have got ?2000
:23:23. > :23:25.back in employment announced on national insurance contributions. We
:23:26. > :23:30.are doing it at home, we are doing it in Europe, and it is important to
:23:31. > :23:44.tie that together. Ireland that Mr Cameron saying, you should stop
:23:45. > :23:54.banging on about Europe... -- I remember. This is before the last
:23:55. > :23:59.general election, as in days for the Lib Dems, 18%. Even then, you didn't
:24:00. > :24:04.win the election, and now you are only three or four points ahead, it
:24:05. > :24:10.doesn't look good for you, does it? Even then, the poll did not turn out
:24:11. > :24:14.to be what it was on the day. No, that is what happens, that is the
:24:15. > :24:17.voting intentions now! You are in a worse position than a year before
:24:18. > :24:24.the last election, which you didn't win. We are almost proving the point
:24:25. > :24:28.that you can take a clip at any moment in time, not sounding like a
:24:29. > :24:34.politician, but the only poll that matters is on the day. In just over
:24:35. > :24:39.a year's time, people will have a completely different picture to look
:24:40. > :24:44.at than these opinion polls. We have an economy from being a basket
:24:45. > :24:49.case, the great Labour recession knocking 7% of this economy, hurting
:24:50. > :24:53.every family, to a point where we the fastest-growing economy in the
:24:54. > :24:57.developed world. In a year's time, I hope people will see that we are the
:24:58. > :25:01.people who've taken the difficult decisions, got the economy to the
:25:02. > :25:05.right place, more security for you and your family. Do not give the car
:25:06. > :25:09.keys back to the people who crashed it in the first place. If I had a
:25:10. > :25:14.pound for every time I have heard that! It is clearly not getting
:25:15. > :25:22.through. On the Pfizer attempted of AstraZeneca, Mr Miliband called this
:25:23. > :25:26.morning for a tougher public interest test such big takeovers. Do
:25:27. > :25:33.you agree with that or not? Let me be absolutely clear, if there is any
:25:34. > :25:44.kind of joining, we are in favour of British jobs,
:25:45. > :25:45.kind of joining, we are in favour of -- R But what Mr Mallon and wants
:25:46. > :25:58.to do with rent caps, he is to do with rent caps, he is
:25:59. > :26:10.wants to take us back to the bad old those. -- bad old days. Should there
:26:11. > :26:13.be a bigger public interest test? We have seen some takeovers that people
:26:14. > :26:20.have criticised, but others, like Bentley, Land Rover, which have been
:26:21. > :26:25.very successful. Should there be a tougher test?! We will have tests
:26:26. > :26:29.that ensured this get-together becomes a great Anglo-American
:26:30. > :26:33.project, or it doesn't happen, but the Miliband approach is simply to
:26:34. > :26:37.be anti-business, anti-jobs and anti-job security. Grant Shapps,
:26:38. > :26:40.thank you. A challenging week for the Liberal
:26:41. > :26:45.Democrats with a local election campaign overshadowed by another row
:26:46. > :26:51.with the Conservatives about knife crime. Adam has spent the day with
:26:52. > :26:55.Nick Clegg on the campaign trail. How nice! Nick Clegg is taking me on
:26:56. > :26:59.a political mini break to the Cotswolds. Yes, we are getting the
:27:00. > :27:03.train. He wants to highlight what his party is doing in local
:27:04. > :27:07.government, and a personal passion of his in Europe. Graham Watson,
:27:08. > :27:11.government, and a personal passion Lib Dem MEP for the south-west, has
:27:12. > :27:16.been running a campaign to have prunes recognised as a laxative. Is
:27:17. > :27:21.that Lib Dems battling for Britain in Europe? It is not our front page
:27:22. > :27:26.manifesto commitment! It is one of many things that Graham does, he
:27:27. > :27:33.does many other things. In fact, he is a good example of an MEP who took
:27:34. > :27:37.a pioneering role, for instance, in making sure... There is the proven
:27:38. > :27:44.world, but also the crime-fighting role. -- prune. He has done work to
:27:45. > :27:49.make sure that when British criminals flee justice, we can bring
:27:50. > :27:53.them back. And he has promoted prunes! First stop, a gorgeous
:27:54. > :27:59.country pub, but it turns out everyone is a journalist or a very
:28:00. > :28:03.on message activist. Dark days, being a Lib Dem in the last few
:28:04. > :28:08.years? Strangely not. If you find you are a Lib Dem deep down, you do
:28:09. > :28:11.not get that disheartened, because you know that, locally, you are
:28:12. > :28:17.doing so well for the people that you live next door to that,
:28:18. > :28:22.actually, I find I am almost impervious to what happens on a
:28:23. > :28:26.national level. I am mayor of Cirencester. Have you taken any
:28:27. > :28:31.leadership lessons from Nick Clegg, inspiring new in your leadership of
:28:32. > :28:35.Cirencester? I think what he has demonstrated his patience. It has
:28:36. > :28:38.been a tough time, he has taken a lot of flak, and as the mayor of a
:28:39. > :28:42.town, lots of people agree with you and a fair few don't. You are a full
:28:43. > :28:47.on mayor, he is just a Deputy and a fair few don't. You are a full
:28:48. > :28:53.Minister, do you outrank him? I don't think so, he is in government,
:28:54. > :28:58.I am not. So our there any normal people in here? We are from
:28:59. > :29:06.Swindon, you cannot get more abnormal. Are you a big fan of his?
:29:07. > :29:10.No! What has he done wrong? I don't believe in his views at all. Where
:29:11. > :29:19.has he got to? Nigel Farage would have had a pint! At this time in the
:29:20. > :29:23.morning a copy was more appropriate. I have no time for a drink of any
:29:24. > :29:27.kind, because now we are off to look at a local traffic blackspot. This
:29:28. > :29:34.is amazing, like a Lib Dem election leaflet brought to life, Lib Dems
:29:35. > :29:38.pointing at a road. High-vis jackets! Next we had to giggle full
:29:39. > :29:43.bath, but there will be no Regency sightseeing for us, oh no, Nick is
:29:44. > :29:53.taking us to an abandoned wilderness. We have just had a
:29:54. > :29:57.health and safety briefing, we have been told to look out for
:29:58. > :30:02.dive-bombing seagulls and an angry fox. That is the sort of thing Nick
:30:03. > :30:07.Clegg has to put up with. He wants to talk about the economy but he has
:30:08. > :30:12.to dodge the day's beat new story, letters leaked by a Tory suggesting
:30:13. > :30:23.that Lib Dems are soft on knife crime. Isn't that a new kind of
:30:24. > :30:27.warfare? I just think it is silly. They may think they are clever by
:30:28. > :30:37.catching some headlines but they are not helping people who worry about
:30:38. > :30:42.knife crime, like I do. We work together... Just like the
:30:43. > :30:47.Coalition! This is a co-working space where different businesses
:30:48. > :30:53.share the same office. My time with the Deputy Prime Minister is drawing
:30:54. > :30:56.to a close. We haven't talked about the most important story of the
:30:57. > :31:04.week, that you were voted the best looking party leader and the most
:31:05. > :31:08.likely to be a good cook. Right, this is news to me and I can
:31:09. > :31:14.guarantee you that my scepticism of opinion polls has just been
:31:15. > :31:20.confirmed. Just as well because the more serious polls don't look great
:31:21. > :31:26.for him or his party. Goodbye, and thanks for the offer of a ride
:31:27. > :31:32.home! He is still walking. Malcolm Bruce
:31:33. > :31:38.joins us now. According to Lib Dem briefing documents, you are likely
:31:39. > :31:43.to choose -- lose a big chunk of your MEPs. If you lose a lot, what
:31:44. > :31:46.would that say about a party that boasts of its pro-Europe
:31:47. > :31:53.credentials? It would be disappointing because we have the
:31:54. > :31:59.most hard-working MEPs. The worry that we have is that people think
:32:00. > :32:07.the European Parliament is not important but it takes decisions
:32:08. > :32:11.that affect us. They would be disappointing for Britain as well as
:32:12. > :32:15.the Liberal Democrats. Isn't the problem that the more you bang on
:32:16. > :32:21.about your pro-European credentials, the more you slip in the polls? I do
:32:22. > :32:32.think so, we have two weeks to go and we are campaigning extremely
:32:33. > :32:37.hard. You are forced in the polls. I can tell you there are people out
:32:38. > :32:43.there who do believe Britain should stay in the EU and they are worried
:32:44. > :32:47.that other parties will take us out. The Liberal Democrats are clear, we
:32:48. > :32:52.want to stay in, we will work for reform and do it effectively. If you
:32:53. > :32:58.lose the Liberal Democrats, Britain's influence in Europe will
:32:59. > :33:02.be weakened. Your track record in Europe shows you have been
:33:03. > :33:09.spectacularly wrong again and again. In your 2009 manifesto you said the
:33:10. > :33:14.European Central Bank and the euro have been tried and tested over ten
:33:15. > :33:21.years providing a clear picture of the benefits of Eurozone membership
:33:22. > :33:24.and that proved to be nonsense. It was nonsense everywhere. Every
:33:25. > :33:30.developed bank in the world was tried and tested and failed. Europe
:33:31. > :33:34.may not be perfect, but the question people have to decide is if we are
:33:35. > :33:42.going to leave Europe and be isolated on RM, or use our influence
:33:43. > :33:47.to reform it from inside. We have allies, you work with them, that is
:33:48. > :33:53.something the Lib Dems do better than any other parties. Your 2004
:33:54. > :33:58.manifesto, you claim that being outside the euro would lead to job
:33:59. > :34:01.losses and reduced prosperity. You were just plain wrong, weren't you?
:34:02. > :34:07.Yes, but the reason is that to some were just plain wrong, weren't you?
:34:08. > :34:15.extent the euro did not observe any rules and regulations when it was
:34:16. > :34:19.set up. That is why we never recommended Britain should join at
:34:20. > :34:27.the outset because the criteria had not been met. In 2001 Nick Clegg was
:34:28. > :34:32.writing to the Financial Times... Your track record is important. He
:34:33. > :34:37.wrote that the Tisch monetary policy is not all it is cracked up to be.
:34:38. > :34:40.Britain would gain greater control over its affairs by joining the
:34:41. > :34:49.euro. How wrong can he be? We have over its affairs by joining the
:34:50. > :34:52.always argued that the currency had to abide by strict criteria. It
:34:53. > :34:55.hasn't done so and that is one to abide by strict criteria. It
:34:56. > :35:01.the reasons it has to abide by strict criteria. It
:35:02. > :35:06.recognise there is no future for Britain joining the euro and we are
:35:07. > :35:14.not advocating it. Lets put your 2010 manifesto on the screen. I
:35:15. > :35:20.didn't say it was not our long-term interest. If Europe succeeds as an
:35:21. > :35:28.entity, if the euro becomes one of the world leading currencies, there
:35:29. > :35:33.will come a point when it may be justified. In the circumstances we
:35:34. > :35:37.are in the moment, there is no recommended timescale. Let's get
:35:38. > :35:43.this right. Despite the Eurozone crisis which has cost millions of
:35:44. > :35:47.jobs, countries that were teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, the
:35:48. > :35:53.Eurozone now facing stagnation and some countries on the brink of
:35:54. > :35:58.deflation, you still won't rule out Britain joining? We are ruling it
:35:59. > :36:02.out in the foreseeable future. You can miss the point that we are
:36:03. > :36:07.working as a coalition partner in government that has secured recovery
:36:08. > :36:10.for the UK, and working as Liberal Democrats in the parliament that
:36:11. > :36:13.for the UK, and working as Liberal have cut back the European budget
:36:14. > :36:17.for the UK, and working as Liberal cooperation with others. What would
:36:18. > :36:23.the world look like if it were right for Britain to join the euro? You
:36:24. > :36:27.have 27 states at the moment, with too many
:36:28. > :36:31.have 27 states at the moment, with to meet the criteria so until you
:36:32. > :36:35.have a strong and cohesive enough single Eurozone in which all the
:36:36. > :36:42.countries can meet that criteria, Britain is better off out. So a more
:36:43. > :36:47.centralised Eurozone, that is what you would like Britain to join? No,
:36:48. > :36:50.because it can only happen by consent. Any circumstances in which
:36:51. > :36:59.any further powers would be transferred from the UK to the EU,
:37:00. > :37:03.we would support a referendum. You have just said that for the Eurozone
:37:04. > :37:07.to work, it has to be more centralised and you said if that
:37:08. > :37:12.happens, that is what Britain would join. I didn't say that, I said it
:37:13. > :37:20.would require the consent of all member states to agree to the
:37:21. > :37:23.criteria. We certainly do not envisage joining in the foreseeable
:37:24. > :37:32.future. Since you are the proud party of in, why weren't you just
:37:33. > :37:37.give us a referendum on in or out? Because it has to have a context.
:37:38. > :37:41.What David Cameron is doing is dangerous because I think the major
:37:42. > :37:46.players like Britain and France are not keen on the idea of being
:37:47. > :37:50.bullied into reforms on the instigation of just one member state
:37:51. > :37:58.which is threatening possibility to withdraw. They will have to agree to
:37:59. > :38:03.rules... Just have it now. Do you want in or out? To have a referendum
:38:04. > :38:08.against no background is to put it out of context. We are in the middle
:38:09. > :38:17.of a crisis, a year away from the general election. We have made it
:38:18. > :38:22.clear... You said we are in the middle of the Eurozone crisis? So we
:38:23. > :38:27.are not in the middle of it? What's the middle? The reality is that the
:38:28. > :38:32.Western world has gone through a deep crisis. The UK is coming out of
:38:33. > :38:37.it, the Eurozone is coming out of it. Greece have been able to borrow
:38:38. > :38:41.on the markets in recent weeks which is a sign of success. It is in our
:38:42. > :38:45.interest is the Eurozone succeeds and recovers and we should be part
:38:46. > :38:50.of it but not necessarily on the same conditions as everyone else.
:38:51. > :38:53.The Liberal Democrats work with others to deliver Britain's
:38:54. > :39:12.interests and if they are not there, their interests will be undermined.
:39:13. > :39:16.Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. Dark
:39:17. > :39:22.forces, cabals and "an embittered rump of the RUC" - how far is Sinn
:39:23. > :39:24.Fein prepared to go as it accuses the PSNI of political policing over
:39:25. > :39:27.Gerry Adams' arrest? And with the first demonstration on the streets,
:39:28. > :39:30.could republicans escalate their protest and just how far would that
:39:31. > :39:38.protest go? In a specially extended Sunday Politics, we'll hear from all
:39:39. > :39:42.five Executive parties. So, the man who is arguably the best known of
:39:43. > :39:46.our active politicians across the world, Gerry Adams, is in his fifth
:39:47. > :39:49.day of questioning by the PSNI at Antrim police station. He remains
:39:50. > :39:52.there after a judge gave detectives up until this evening to continue
:39:53. > :39:55.interviewing the Sinn Fein President. The issue has put
:39:56. > :39:58.Northern Ireland back on the radar of the world's media, many of whom
:39:59. > :40:01.have been in Antrim. Our reporter Catherine Morrison is there now.
:40:02. > :40:16.Catherine, what are the options open to the police? When Gerry Adams
:40:17. > :40:20.arrived here at Antrim police station voluntarily on Wednesday
:40:21. > :40:25.night few believed he would still be here five days later. On Friday
:40:26. > :40:29.night detectives were granted another two days to question him
:40:30. > :40:36.further. That runs out at five o'clock tonight so at that point
:40:37. > :40:44.they must either release him, charge him, or apply for an extension.
:40:45. > :40:49.There was a view he could be kept for up to 20 days but that would
:40:50. > :40:59.take us over the election period and so seems unlikely. He is being
:41:00. > :41:07.questioned for up to 17 hours per day. The cells are very basic. Just
:41:08. > :41:15.a rough bed and buying kit at night. This is perfectly normal practice.
:41:16. > :41:20.Mr Adams is not being treated any differently to anyone else and it is
:41:21. > :41:28.all human right is compliant. The clock is ticking and the countdown
:41:29. > :41:35.is on to the deadline tonight. Thank you. So, the first street protest
:41:36. > :41:38.over the Sinn Fein leader's detention happened yesterday
:41:39. > :41:41.afternoon attended by a number of prominent party figures, including
:41:42. > :41:43.several MLAs. At the West Belfast rally, Martin McGuinness got a
:41:44. > :41:47.rousing reception from supporters at a newly painted mural of Gerry
:41:48. > :41:50.Adams. The Deputy First Minister had strong criticism of the PSNI, and
:41:51. > :42:01.blamed what he cold "an embittered rump of the old RUC" wanting to
:42:02. > :42:10.settle scores. We fully support the PS NI and a democratic policing of
:42:11. > :42:15.justice but our support is a political support. No police force
:42:16. > :42:23.anywhere in the world is immune from criticism if it is acting in a
:42:24. > :42:29.partisan fashion. The arrest of Gerry Adams is evidence that there
:42:30. > :42:44.are people in the PSNI who are against the peace protest who hate
:42:45. > :42:50.Gerry Adams and heat Sinn Fein. -- hate. And just this morning, the
:42:51. > :42:53.First Minister Peter Robinson has accused Sinn Fein of attempting to
:42:54. > :42:55.blackmail the police with a "crude and overt political threat". In a
:42:56. > :42:58.strongly worded statement, Mr Robinson uses the term "bully boy
:42:59. > :43:02.tactics", and says republicans have crossed the line. With me now are
:43:03. > :43:06.the Sinn Fein MLA, Gerry Kelly, and the DUP MP, Jeffrey Donaldson. How
:43:07. > :43:16.much threat do you think the process is under with this arrest? I think
:43:17. > :43:26.Peter Robinson has a brass neck saying that the process is viable.
:43:27. > :43:32.He has been defending the protests of flag-wavers and all the rest of
:43:33. > :43:38.it. There is an issue. We have been very clear about this. The reason
:43:39. > :43:44.people are pro testing in the street is because this is about political
:43:45. > :43:50.policing. It is entirely linked to the fact there are two elections
:43:51. > :43:55.coming up and that Sinn Fein is surging forward is. That is what
:43:56. > :44:04.this is about. They could have waited until the end. Articles were
:44:05. > :44:08.written decades ago as well as the so-called Boston tapes and they have
:44:09. > :44:14.gone through every single thing they have gone through many times before.
:44:15. > :44:20.They could have done this ten months ago. Gerry Adams himself offered to
:44:21. > :44:27.come forward five weeks ago. There may well have been reasons for that.
:44:28. > :44:35.They should clarify that. What I and others believe is that there is
:44:36. > :44:40.political policing, when we see there is a small cabal through the
:44:41. > :44:46.PSNI all you have to do is look at what happened in the ombudsman's
:44:47. > :44:52.office. We demanded an enquiry because when they were a link with
:44:53. > :44:59.state forces who were suspected of being involved in killings they were
:45:00. > :45:03.given a pre-packaged of interviews. That is differential policing, it is
:45:04. > :45:18.not acceptable and we will criticise it. There is the evidence, he says.
:45:19. > :45:23.I do not accept that. The police have the full legal right to do what
:45:24. > :45:29.they are doing. Who is this cabal that Sinn Fein are talking about? I
:45:30. > :45:34.have no doubt that the decision to interview Gerry Adams and the timing
:45:35. > :45:39.of that would have been decided at the highest levels by the most
:45:40. > :45:47.senior officers in the PSNI. Is he suggesting they are this cabal, hard
:45:48. > :45:54.the people inside the pleas force who heat Sinn Fein? I am concerned
:45:55. > :46:02.that within the senior team there are people who still have the old
:46:03. > :46:12.guard view of this. I did not see who this included. That is in the
:46:13. > :46:19.senior edge lawns. Let me make this clear. There are also people in the
:46:20. > :46:24.senior lecturer lawns who are brought in and who are pushing
:46:25. > :46:33.things forward but there are others whose influence is there. What about
:46:34. > :46:39.the statement from your party leader today which talks about Sinn Fein
:46:40. > :46:50.saying it will be assessed its attitude to policing? The PSNI must
:46:51. > :46:58.not be the subject of Republican bully boy tactics, does that kind of
:46:59. > :47:05.language help? It goes to the heart of what the peace process is about.
:47:06. > :47:10.You are either supporting the policing or not. In terms of this
:47:11. > :47:18.situation, you cannot on the one hand say police must sue things
:47:19. > :47:27.impartially and act the same time say if Gerry Adams were to be
:47:28. > :47:36.charged they must reassess their thinking and support. I am asking if
:47:37. > :47:41.this language is helpful? The anger on the doorsteps is palpable. People
:47:42. > :47:46.are very concerned by the very subtle and in some cases not so
:47:47. > :47:52.subtle pressure that Sinn Fein are trying to apply to the police and
:47:53. > :47:58.judicial system over this issue. I think there is an attempt to
:47:59. > :48:04.intimidate the police on this issue. Let's not lose sight of what is at
:48:05. > :48:11.the heart of this. The abduction of the mother of ten children, her
:48:12. > :48:16.brutal torture and murder. Our body lay undiscovered for ten years, her
:48:17. > :48:23.family deprived of the right to grieve the loss. They are entitled
:48:24. > :48:30.to justice. I do not hear any remorse from Sinn Fein about what
:48:31. > :48:34.happened to hard. Do you also accept that unless Gerry Adams is found
:48:35. > :48:42.guilty of this he is an innocent man? Of course he is. That point has
:48:43. > :48:49.been made by the DUP throughout this process. The police must be allowed
:48:50. > :48:54.to get on with their job of this investigation, to question whoever
:48:55. > :49:01.they need to question and find justice for the family of Jean
:49:02. > :49:04.McConville. No-one should be putting pressure on the police to come up
:49:05. > :49:11.with the conclusion other than the one which is just and lawful.
:49:12. > :49:14.Robinson is right to say that when you prevaricate and are unclear
:49:15. > :49:20.about your support for the rule of law and the police, when it becomes
:49:21. > :49:28.conditional, that is a breach of what we agreed to at St Andrews. You
:49:29. > :49:33.would think that Unionists never criticise the police. I sit on the
:49:34. > :49:37.police board and listen to them attacking the police all the time.
:49:38. > :49:43.When you take something like the flag protests as an example they
:49:44. > :49:48.were out attacking the police for their actions so let's not say this
:49:49. > :49:54.is an absolute support in one way or another. If the police do something
:49:55. > :50:01.wrong I will be the first out to criticise them. Geoffrey also said
:50:02. > :50:09.about the family of Jean McConville, one of the first things that Gerry
:50:10. > :50:16.Adams said was this was a terrible injustice done to a family. To see
:50:17. > :50:24.another injustice will not help the first injustice. The role thing is
:50:25. > :50:31.ratcheted up when people hear Gerry Adams -- Martin McGuinness saying
:50:32. > :50:41.his party will have to rethink their support of the PSNI if Mr Adams is
:50:42. > :50:49.charged. Went Gerry Adams was arrested instead of speaking to him
:50:50. > :50:57.the whole thing was ratcheted up. Nobody is arguing that anyone should
:50:58. > :51:00.be above the law. They have done it in the mouth of an election when
:51:01. > :51:07.they have had this so-called evidence which is very dubious in
:51:08. > :51:14.any case, they have had that for ten months and they were questioning him
:51:15. > :51:20.in the 1970s, this is a fishing exercise. He is being question
:51:21. > :51:28.now... You do not actually know that. That is my opinion. Unless you
:51:29. > :51:38.want to bring some police officers here I will give my opinions. You
:51:39. > :51:45.let the process take its course and you make the decision when the PSNI
:51:46. > :51:50.decide what happens next. They could have done it some time ago or after
:51:51. > :51:55.the election, the fact it was done at the time of the election and
:51:56. > :52:04.taking our reader out who is crucial... Wouldn't that have been a
:52:05. > :52:10.political calculation to say we cannot get ourselves involved at the
:52:11. > :52:15.time of an election? You think that it's political? Fair enough, so then
:52:16. > :52:31.you accept that equally the other decision is elliptical as well?
:52:32. > :52:37.Gerry Kelly said it was a political decision to arrest him three weeks
:52:38. > :52:43.before an election. I do not accept that. There is no pardon during the
:52:44. > :52:52.run-up to an election. The police must be allowed to explain the
:52:53. > :52:59.evidence they had. It is not our role to second-guess the police.
:53:00. > :53:02.There is a specialist unit in Carrickfergus totally dedicated to
:53:03. > :53:09.investigate the soldiers who were associated with the so-called bloody
:53:10. > :53:12.Sunday. I never hear Sinn Fein saying that is political policing or
:53:13. > :53:20.complaining about dedicated resources. What Sinn Fein want is
:53:21. > :53:24.won the army and the police in the dock but they do not want a
:53:25. > :53:33.Republican in the dock. That is not acceptable. We have already argued
:53:34. > :53:38.that here is the police having all the evidence, knowing exactly who
:53:39. > :53:44.the soldiers were involved in bloody Sunday, none of them being arrested
:53:45. > :53:47.and in fact they know they have all the evidence there because there has
:53:48. > :53:54.been an inquiry that brought all the evidence out. Will Sinn Fein
:53:55. > :54:01.withdraw support for policing in Northern Ireland if Mr Adams is
:54:02. > :54:06.charged? We believe in policing, we call the police to account and will
:54:07. > :54:14.continue to do so. We will assess... So it is a possibility?
:54:15. > :54:18.Parker McGuinness has been trying to get Peter Robinson to stand shoulder
:54:19. > :54:29.to shoulder with him to go through things that have been going on.
:54:30. > :54:34.Street yes or no? Is there any possibility Sinn Fein will withdraw
:54:35. > :54:42.its support for policing if Mr Adams is charged? With respect to you, you
:54:43. > :54:50.are not a lawyer and I am not in court. I will give the ands I want
:54:51. > :54:57.to give. I am and sitting in my way. Let me answer. We will assess all of
:54:58. > :55:04.this as we go on. What do you make of that answer? It is like what
:55:05. > :55:11.Martin McGuinness has said, they will assess the situation, I can say
:55:12. > :55:17.categorically DUP support for the police is unequivocal. Did you hear
:55:18. > :55:22.what the justice minister said yesterday when he talked about
:55:23. > :55:36.pressure being put on the police why everyone when it suits them. The DUP
:55:37. > :55:41.has not put pressure on any judge or anyone at any time. We will
:55:42. > :55:46.criticise the police if we think they get something wrong. ) that is
:55:47. > :55:53.exactly the point, you are allowed to do that but Gerry Kelly is not?
:55:54. > :55:55.There is the difference between criticising the police and
:55:56. > :56:10.supporting the police. We support the rule of law. Did you see that
:56:11. > :56:14.extract earlier? He went on to say that they would monitor the
:56:15. > :56:23.situation. Our position is clear and our support for the police is
:56:24. > :56:29.unequivocal. He did not give you a straight answer, as I have. Gerry
:56:30. > :56:34.Kelly did not say that. We need to leave it there. Thank you both.
:56:35. > :56:39.The woman at the centre of this investigation, Jean McConville, was
:56:40. > :56:51.abducted and murdered in 1972. Members of her family have talked
:56:52. > :56:54.about their thoughts this week. Personally speaking, if anybody is
:56:55. > :56:59.going to trial, I don't think they should be going to the courts in
:57:00. > :57:07.Northern Ireland. They should be in the Hague for war crimes, because
:57:08. > :57:12.this is a war crime. It was ordered by people on the streets. It was an
:57:13. > :57:17.army that took my mother away. They kidnapped, beat her up for the
:57:18. > :57:25.length of time that they did, for six or seven days. They tortured her
:57:26. > :57:32.for six or seven days, and then they took and they executed her. I said
:57:33. > :57:37.in 1994, the first time I spoke about my mother, I said that I will
:57:38. > :57:41.campaign for her until the day I die. If anything happens to be, I
:57:42. > :57:46.have five children who will carry on campaigning for the truth. Helen
:57:47. > :57:50.McKendry there. Whatever happens to Gerry Adams Ladies Day, whether he
:57:51. > :57:57.is charged or released, what impact will it have?
:57:58. > :58:02.Mike Nesbitt and Alasdair McDonnell idea, and the Alliance Party's
:58:03. > :58:07.deputy leader Naomi Long. How big a bigger lobby in this morning? This
:58:08. > :58:14.is a proper crisis. Jean McConville's family have been windy
:58:15. > :58:18.-- waiting 42 years for Gerry Adams to be questioned. It is entirely
:58:19. > :58:22.self-serving of Sinn Fein to complain that it took the police
:58:23. > :58:27.seven weeks to respond to the offer from Gerry Adams that he would speak
:58:28. > :58:35.to them. A man whose name has been associated with a seamless crying
:58:36. > :58:39.for decades -- a heinous crime for decades office speak to the police.
:58:40. > :58:45.The police taken up on that offer. Thirdly, the police are attacked by
:58:46. > :58:51.Sinn, accused without evidence of having a cabal of senior
:58:52. > :58:55.officers... The timing is important. Gerry Kelly said that three weeks
:58:56. > :59:01.before people go to the polls North and South of the border, their party
:59:02. > :59:06.leader is arrested in inaction with something that happened in 1972. And
:59:07. > :59:11.who is responsible for the timing tee-mac Gerry Adams. He initiated
:59:12. > :59:16.the process. Last night, I watched the TV coverage of the rally. A
:59:17. > :59:22.senior Republican introduced Martin McGuinness by saying, how gave a --
:59:23. > :59:27.how dare they touch our party leader? Does that suggest that Gerry
:59:28. > :59:38.Adams should be above the law? That is an explicit technician --
:59:39. > :59:42.admission. They believe that Gerry Adams, and others, are untouchable
:59:43. > :59:48.in terms of the law. Howdy respond to that, Alistair MacDonald? Simply,
:59:49. > :59:53.and I don't see this as being primarily about Gerry Adams all the
:59:54. > :00:00.police, but it is about justice. Jean McConville was kidnapped,
:00:01. > :00:09.tortured and murdered and buried secretly. It is a heinous crime, a
:00:10. > :00:13.vile crime, and her ten children were left orphans. They have been
:00:14. > :00:17.looking for justice for 40 years. It has now become a political issue.
:00:18. > :00:23.Mike Nesbitt says we are now in a proper crisis. I am not sure we are
:00:24. > :00:27.in a proper crisis. How would you describe it? I think there is an
:00:28. > :00:33.amount of spin around it. There is justice required here. The SDLP are
:00:34. > :00:41.family. We worked through the family.
:00:42. > :00:44.process and we are still prepared to work with them. Is political
:00:45. > :00:45.policing responsible for the decision to arrest Gerry Adams at
:00:46. > :00:54.this time, decision to arrest Gerry Adams at
:00:55. > :00:58.political policing involved in this. I quite simply
:00:59. > :00:59.political policing involved in this. voluntarily going to the police, and
:01:00. > :01:03.he chose the timing. Basically, voluntarily going to the police, and
:01:04. > :01:05.may or may not have been aware of prepared for
:01:06. > :01:07.may or may not have been aware of detained him, but Gerry Adams chose
:01:08. > :01:12.the timing. detained him, but Gerry Adams chose
:01:13. > :01:15.reservations about the process? I believe we are
:01:16. > :01:20.reservations about the process? I our actions. I believe the police
:01:21. > :01:27.are responsible to question any of us who are suspect all have evidence
:01:28. > :01:33.to give about a crime. Therefore, the police had -- if
:01:34. > :01:36.to give about a crime. Therefore, not detained him and they had
:01:37. > :01:40.to give about a crime. Therefore, evidence to detain him, and I
:01:41. > :01:42.to give about a crime. Therefore, like to see that, but there are so
:01:43. > :01:45.to give about a crime. Therefore, pieces of the jigsaw here, that none
:01:46. > :01:51.to give about a crime. Therefore, of us are in a position of the full
:01:52. > :01:55.facts. A decision to question him, is that political or not? There are
:01:56. > :02:03.sharply contrasting views of the situation. Both of them aggregate it
:02:04. > :02:06.when it suits them about the rule of law and throughout the accusation
:02:07. > :02:11.about political policing when it is someone in their camp who is being
:02:12. > :02:15.arrested. It is not actually a sap -- has sharply divided as you think.
:02:16. > :02:19.The truth of the matter is that the police have a job to do and they
:02:20. > :02:23.must do it in partially. They have to follow when the evidence leads.
:02:24. > :02:30.The judge has extended questioning for another 48 hours because they
:02:31. > :02:34.believe there is the questioning continued -- continuing. None of us
:02:35. > :02:39.are above the law. The people at the heart of this Arnotts Gerry Adams
:02:40. > :02:42.and Sinn Fein, not the Unionist parties or Stormont or the
:02:43. > :02:46.politics. The thing at the centre of this is the murder of Jean
:02:47. > :02:50.McConville and her family's desire for justice. That has to be the
:02:51. > :02:53.focus, and I think throwing around this political policing all the
:02:54. > :02:56.time, the bottom line is that if somebody does something wrong or
:02:57. > :03:00.requires the police to question them about it, that is not political
:03:01. > :03:08.policing, that is policing. So Sinn Fein have got this wrong? Byes. This
:03:09. > :03:13.needs to follow due process. This needs to go through the normal
:03:14. > :03:16.course of law. Gerry Adams is innocent until proven guilty. He has
:03:17. > :03:20.that right like everyone else, but he has no right to demand that his
:03:21. > :03:23.questioning or the treatment of him as a potential witness in this
:03:24. > :03:28.situation should be any different to any other person in society. And yet
:03:29. > :03:31.you saw how Gerry Kelly reacted, similar to the way that Martin
:03:32. > :03:36.McGuinness and other Sinn Fein spokespeople have reacted, saying
:03:37. > :03:42.that that is political policing, there is a Kabbalah, the timing was
:03:43. > :03:46.deliberate. The timing is what it is. If they delayed until after the
:03:47. > :03:52.section, that would be political policing. If you take into account
:03:53. > :03:55.the electoral cycle, when you are undertaking your job as a police
:03:56. > :04:00.officer, then clearly that is a political decision. If you follow
:04:01. > :04:04.the lead is where they go and you do the job, that is not political
:04:05. > :04:10.policing. That is policing. Increasingly, people in the public
:04:11. > :04:12.are getting fed up listening to politicians throwing around
:04:13. > :04:17.accusations about political policing, whether it is Gerry Kelly
:04:18. > :04:21.on the bonnet of a Land Rover, or outbursts on Facebook, people are
:04:22. > :04:25.tied on it on both sides. We need support for the police and the rule
:04:26. > :04:30.of law which is unequivocal and direct. What about the language used
:04:31. > :04:37.by Mike Nesbitt about Peter Robinson? I quoted earlier, talking
:04:38. > :04:49.about reassessing Sinn Fein's attitude towards the arrest. I put
:04:50. > :04:54.the pointy Jeffrey Donaldson, that is arguably not helpful in the
:04:55. > :05:12.current cauldron politics that we find ourselves in. Last night, Alex
:05:13. > :05:18.Mackie was speaking to air UK wide audience, and he said that we will
:05:19. > :05:23.support, we can support what we want. What does that mean? It is not
:05:24. > :05:28.that long ago that Sinn Fein would not condemn the IRA for murdering
:05:29. > :05:32.and for maiming police officers. What happens now? If a young
:05:33. > :05:38.nationalists came to me and said, I was thinking about a career in the
:05:39. > :05:41.PSNI, could I say, go for it. Should I not be worried that he will end up
:05:42. > :05:47.like Stephen Carroll and Roman kirk? Don't you have to balance that
:05:48. > :05:53.with what Martin -- Martin McGuinness said about fully
:05:54. > :05:59.supporting the PSNI in the proper discharge of its duties? You can't
:06:00. > :06:04.cherry pick. You cannot cherry pick support for the rule of law, and if
:06:05. > :06:06.we all agree that the police should be operationally independent, we
:06:07. > :06:10.should all be at home today waiting for eight o'clock to see what the
:06:11. > :06:13.police do. If we have concerns, we should be taking them to the
:06:14. > :06:19.policing board. That is what we agreed in 1998. You reserve the
:06:20. > :06:24.right to criticise the police as well, don't you? How many times have
:06:25. > :06:27.I quietly gone to speak to the Chief Constable Matt Baggott what I do. I
:06:28. > :06:33.asked to speak to the chief constable. I say, I want to hear
:06:34. > :06:38.your side of the story. I will not go out and stand in front of the
:06:39. > :06:41.cameras and make a big fuss. I have done it several times in the last
:06:42. > :06:45.couple of years. The police think it is a sensible way to go forward. I
:06:46. > :06:51.think it is a sensible way to go forward. What we have had is ramping
:06:52. > :06:54.up in a detrimental way to building community, trust, mutual trust
:06:55. > :07:01.between politicians... Alistair MacDonald, how important is support
:07:02. > :07:06.for policing and maintenance of devolution? There is a lot of spin
:07:07. > :07:10.and Peter Robinson's, as were unhelpful. They are an
:07:11. > :07:16.electioneering around a situation. This is about justice and truth. It
:07:17. > :07:21.is about dealing with the past, and we have to deal with the past and
:07:22. > :07:24.deal with this in the context of the McConvilles, and victims and
:07:25. > :07:27.survivors generally. That is where we have to take this, not worrying
:07:28. > :07:32.about the political spin is that I put on it. A final thought? We
:07:33. > :07:37.should be concerned when people are threatening to sit -- withdraw their
:07:38. > :07:41.support from the police. It is a serious matter when people bandy
:07:42. > :07:45.about words like political policing, something which politicians on both
:07:46. > :07:48.sides have done. What we need to do is recognise that all the crises we
:07:49. > :07:53.have faith in the last few months have arisen from a lack of our
:07:54. > :07:58.ability to deal with the past in a copper hands of way. We have to take
:07:59. > :08:02.this forward into a peace process with credibility. Thank you for
:08:03. > :08:08.joining us. Time to look back at the political beat in 60 seconds.
:08:09. > :08:15.Gerry Adams was arrested over the murder of Jean McConville in 1972.
:08:16. > :08:22.The Sinn Fein president continued to deny any part in the crime. I will
:08:23. > :08:29.tell the PSNI that I am innocent of any abduction, killing or burial of
:08:30. > :08:32.Jean McConville. The McConville family believe that the Sinn Fein
:08:33. > :08:35.president was involved. I have always believed that Gerry
:08:36. > :08:39.Adams was involved in the murder of my mother, and until the day I die,
:08:40. > :08:45.I will believe that. For the third time in 18 months,
:08:46. > :08:51.MLAs debated but did not pass a motion calling for the legalisation
:08:52. > :08:57.of gay marriage. The traditional values of marriage is the bedrock of
:08:58. > :09:00.any stable society. The Assembly remembered an independent MLA, but
:09:01. > :09:06.it emerged that his former assistant will follow him into the chamber.
:09:07. > :09:08.Some MLAs got little rowdy. The culture minister had that number. It
:09:09. > :09:24.is like bingo! The culture minister comparing DUP
:09:25. > :09:28.MLAs to "oul dolls at bingo". Similar O'Connor and Liam Clarke are
:09:29. > :09:32.with me now. An interesting exchange of views this morning. What have you
:09:33. > :09:43.made of what you have heard, Fionnuala O'Connor? There is a lot
:09:44. > :09:46.of spin and froth. I would be inclined to talk this all down, not
:09:47. > :09:51.just because I would like to, the because people have got themselves
:09:52. > :09:56.exercise and have other spoken. I wonder if Sinn Fein really have
:09:57. > :10:00.thought this through. They have done what they do very well, reacted on
:10:01. > :10:11.the hoof, marshalled their forces in a political sense. But I listened
:10:12. > :10:16.yesterday to someone saying, what we need to establish now is at what
:10:17. > :10:21.stage Gerry Adams will end this conversation with the PSNI. At that
:10:22. > :10:25.stage, I don't know whether Sinn Fein were thinking they would play
:10:26. > :10:28.this in a very lofty and idealistic way and say that he is helping
:10:29. > :10:31.police with their enquiries, we are happy to help and we want to help
:10:32. > :10:36.the McConville family. Perhaps they thought they should handle it like
:10:37. > :10:40.that, and perhaps they should have. May be that changed when he was
:10:41. > :10:45.arrested and held for a further 48 hours. That is definitely a part of
:10:46. > :10:49.it. They are reflecting a lot of anger on the ground among their
:10:50. > :10:53.people and they are trying to manage that. They are trying to manage and
:10:54. > :10:55.in the North on the ground. They are trying to manage electoral prospects
:10:56. > :10:59.in the South will stop in the middle, they have come out saying,
:11:00. > :11:03.political policing, and that is a hard one to get off, hard for the
:11:04. > :11:06.police holding Gerry Adams, no doubt not listening to television and
:11:07. > :11:12.radio as they do so, but definitely under pressure now to hold him for
:11:13. > :11:15.longer or perhaps to place a charge when they may think there is no
:11:16. > :11:21.evidence to do it. It is a challenge for Sinn Fein to criticise policing,
:11:22. > :11:29.to which they are fully committed to this strange -- at this stage?
:11:30. > :11:36.Lasting damage will be done out of this. People have other spoken --
:11:37. > :11:40.other spoken. You will have a situation where, if Gerry Adams is
:11:41. > :11:49.not charged for proper reasons if there is no evidence, people might
:11:50. > :11:56.say, pressure, that is what gets you off. They will think it is worth
:11:57. > :12:02.trying. And I think that Sinn Fein by saying, there is still a cab
:12:03. > :12:09.while at the top of the police, they are giving entitlement to the idea
:12:10. > :12:14.that they signed to something without examining it. I am not sure
:12:15. > :12:19.Sinn Fein mean that, but they are creating a situation. It is bad that
:12:20. > :12:21.the two parties cannot in some way toward making themselves to start
:12:22. > :12:28.writing this down. You wrote a piece in the Telegraph yesterday, making
:12:29. > :12:31.the point that if Gerry Adams is not charged, there will be those who
:12:32. > :12:38.call the conclusion that the PDF and PSNI have caved in under pressure
:12:39. > :12:40.from Republicans. It is bad in a democracy and you could not imagine
:12:41. > :12:49.it happening in Britain, or the South, a party threatening the
:12:50. > :12:55.police. You are creating a situation where people assume that pressure
:12:56. > :13:00.will work if Gerry Adams is not charged. There is a likelihood that
:13:01. > :13:06.he will not be charged. Is the PSNI dammed if they do and stand if they
:13:07. > :13:17.don't? Yes, the police in every society says that situation. It is
:13:18. > :13:23.comical to listen to saying it is dreadful -- listen to them saying
:13:24. > :13:28.that they will withdraw support from the police. I remember Ian Paisley
:13:29. > :13:31.shouting at police, don't come crying to me, when he was being
:13:32. > :13:39.carried out of Stormont after a long process. What happens next? It will
:13:40. > :13:44.all depend on if Gerry Adams is charged or not. If he is released,
:13:45. > :13:49.there will be a scenario. The worst would be if he is charged with
:13:50. > :13:52.membership and nothing else. We will see what happens later today
:13:53. > :13:56.perhaps. Thank you very much both. There will be an extended news
:13:57. > :13:59.report tonight at 10:15pm.