:00:39. > :00:45.Good morning. Welcome to The Sunday Politics. Just four days to go until
:00:46. > :00:50.election day, and be warned, coming to a street near you, a party leader
:00:51. > :00:53.on a charm offensive. They all want your vote in the European elections
:00:54. > :00:58.on Thursday, and in the local elections across England, too. Polls
:00:59. > :01:03.are all over the place this morning. Your vote could make a
:01:04. > :01:07.difference. This man is 11 points ahead in one poll, he has promised
:01:08. > :01:11.an earthquake on Thursday, but what then? Our Adam has braved the
:01:12. > :01:20.Coming up in an extended programme, campaign trail, he has been
:01:21. > :01:22.Coming up in an extended programme, with just days to polling in the
:01:23. > :01:24.local government election, the big with just days to polling in the
:01:25. > :01:24.this week, a last look at local government election, the big
:01:25. > :01:24.five parties local government election, the big
:01:25. > :01:24.this week, a last look at the euro local government election, the big
:01:25. > :01:24.five parties join this week, a last look at the euro
:01:25. > :01:24.elections, this week, a last look at the euro
:01:25. > :01:24.five parties join me this week, a last look at the euro
:01:25. > :01:25.elections, and the 50th this week, a last look at the euro
:01:26. > :01:25.five parties join me live this week, a last look at the euro
:01:26. > :01:25.elections, and the 50th anniversary this week, a last look at the euro
:01:26. > :01:25.five parties join me live to elections, and the 50th anniversary
:01:26. > :01:26.of the first elections, and the 50th anniversary
:01:27. > :01:27.five parties join me live to debate the challenges facing our news super
:01:28. > :01:28.councils. the challenges facing our news super
:01:29. > :01:37.of the first elections to London's 32 boroughs. I am in the studio,
:01:38. > :01:47.with those who think they have got all the big answers. Nick Watt,
:01:48. > :01:50.Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. So, it is the European elections for
:01:51. > :01:54.everybody on Thursday, local elections for England and a bit of
:01:55. > :01:59.Northern Ireland as well. They are the last elections before the big
:02:00. > :02:02.one, the 2015 general election. Some say that these European and local
:02:03. > :02:07.elections will not be much of a pointer to how the big one goes. But
:02:08. > :02:12.that will not stop political commentators and party gurus from
:02:13. > :02:18.examining them closely. So, what is at stake? Thursday May the 22nd is
:02:19. > :02:38.local elections and European Parliament elections.
:02:39. > :02:46.These local results should be known by Friday. In the European
:02:47. > :02:51.elections, all 751 members of the European Parliament will be elected
:02:52. > :02:55.across Europe. 73 MEPs will be let it by people living in the UK. But
:02:56. > :02:59.the results will not be announced until Sunday night, after voting has
:03:00. > :03:04.closed throughout the 28 member states of the EU. Nick Watt, we are
:03:05. > :03:08.in a position where the polls this morning cannot tell us what the
:03:09. > :03:12.outcome is going to be on Thursday, and the general election is still
:03:13. > :03:16.wide open - we really are in uncharted territory? Also it is
:03:17. > :03:20.difficult to know where we are, because there is that ComRes poll
:03:21. > :03:24.which shows an 11 point lead amongst those certain to vote for UKIP, and
:03:25. > :03:30.another poll in the Sunday Times showing that it is a much more
:03:31. > :03:37.slender lead for UKIP. But we know that will they win? We do not know,
:03:38. > :03:40.but clearly they will unsettle the major parties. Fall or five months
:03:41. > :03:46.ago, we assumed that the UKIP success would create panic in the
:03:47. > :03:50.Conservative Party, but that has been factored into David Cameron's
:03:51. > :03:53.share price. The Conservative Party is remarkably relaxed at the moment,
:03:54. > :03:58.and I wonder whether this time next week, when we have the results,
:03:59. > :04:02.whether the two political leaders who will be under pressure will be
:04:03. > :04:06.Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg. Nick Clegg, because they could go down
:04:07. > :04:11.from 12 MEPs to maybe just three or four. And Ed Miliband, because, one
:04:12. > :04:14.year before a general election, he should be showing that he is a
:04:15. > :04:21.significant, potent electoral force. So, they should all be
:04:22. > :04:24.worried about UKIP, but whereas a couple of months ago, we would all
:04:25. > :04:29.have said David Cameron was the one who should be worried, now, we are
:04:30. > :04:34.saying it is Mr Miliband and Mr Clegg? And of the two, I think it is
:04:35. > :04:43.Ed Miliband who should be worried. The Lib Dems are an incredibly
:04:44. > :04:52.resilient party. He described his own party as cockroaches, and
:04:53. > :04:56.incredible resilience! I think the Lib Dems are ready to take this one,
:04:57. > :05:00.but I think Labour are really wobbly at the moment. What UKIP has done,
:05:01. > :05:05.to England, it means that England has caught up with Scotland,
:05:06. > :05:09.Northern Ireland and Wales, England now has a four party system, which
:05:10. > :05:16.makes it all the more uncertain what the outcome will be? Yes, but
:05:17. > :05:19.whether UKIP finish first or second, it will be the biggest insurgent
:05:20. > :05:24.event since the European elections began in 1979. People talk about the
:05:25. > :05:30.Greens in 1989, but I think they finished third. Were UKIP to win a
:05:31. > :05:34.national election or even finish runner-up, it would be truly
:05:35. > :05:38.historic. It is reflecting on something which is happening across
:05:39. > :05:46.Europe, pianist in Italy, Holland, France and in this country. --
:05:47. > :05:51.populist parties. And it makes first past the post look absolutely
:05:52. > :05:54.ridiculous. You could be in a situation after the next general
:05:55. > :05:58.election where Labour do not get the largest percentage of the vote but
:05:59. > :06:01.they get the largest number of seats. First past the post works
:06:02. > :06:08.fairly if there are only two parties, but when there are four...
:06:09. > :06:13.We will talk more about that. Let's speak now to Suzanne Evans of UKIP.
:06:14. > :06:16.She is at Westminster. Now, UKIP claims that there is going to be an
:06:17. > :06:22.earthquake in British politics on Thursday. Suppose there is, what
:06:23. > :06:26.does UKIP then need to do to become a more grown-up, proper party? I
:06:27. > :06:33.think UKIP has very much become a grown-up, proper party. We have been
:06:34. > :06:37.around for 20 years. What we are going to be doing after the European
:06:38. > :06:41.elections, if we do cause this earthquake, and the polls are
:06:42. > :06:45.looking like we are going to, is we will be firmly looking towards 2015,
:06:46. > :06:50.getting our general election manifesto out, to keep those votes
:06:51. > :06:52.on board from the euro elections and putting forward common-sense
:06:53. > :06:56.policies which really will bring Britain back to the people. We want
:06:57. > :07:00.to be able to hold the balance of power come the general election. If
:07:01. > :07:10.we can do that then there will be a referendum. That will be our aim.
:07:11. > :07:15.You say you are a more grown-up party, but when you look at the
:07:16. > :07:18.stream of gaffes and controversies created by your candidates and
:07:19. > :07:24.members, I will not go into them this morning, at the very least, I
:07:25. > :07:28.would suggest you are needing a more robust system of selection? You
:07:29. > :07:33.could say the same for the other three parties, who have been around
:07:34. > :07:38.for a lot longer. They have got nothing like the embarrassments you
:07:39. > :07:43.had. I am afraid they had. Just this week, since Monday, we have had 17
:07:44. > :07:47.Liberal Democrat, labour or Conservative councillors either
:07:48. > :07:50.arrested, charged or convicted on all manner of offences. In addition
:07:51. > :07:54.we have had 13 who have been involved in some kind of racist,
:07:55. > :07:58.sexist or homophobic incident. I am not saying I am proud of any of
:07:59. > :08:02.that. The whole of politics probably needs to be cleaned up, but I
:08:03. > :08:05.certainly do not think we are any worse than the other parties, who
:08:06. > :08:12.have much greater resources than we do. Those other parties are even
:08:13. > :08:15.putting people in power who they know have got criminal convictions
:08:16. > :08:21.or who have previously belonged to far right, fascist parties like the
:08:22. > :08:25.BNP. Can you continue to be a one-man band? The only time any
:08:26. > :08:31.other UKIP petition makes the headlines is when they say something
:08:32. > :08:35.loony or objectionable? We have a huge amount of talent in this party.
:08:36. > :08:39.We have fantastic spokespeople across the patch, the huge amount of
:08:40. > :08:43.expertise in the party. Inevitably the media focuses on Nigel Farage,
:08:44. > :08:51.who is a fantastic, charismatic leader. But believe me, there is a
:08:52. > :08:55.huge amount of talent. When we get our MEPs into power after the
:08:56. > :09:01.European elections, we will see many more of them I think on television
:09:02. > :09:08.and radio and in the newspapers. We are not a one-man band. Who runs
:09:09. > :09:12.your party? The party is run by Nigel Farage, our leader. But he
:09:13. > :09:18.spends all his time running between television studios and in and out of
:09:19. > :09:21.the pub! You would be amazed how much he does, and of course we have
:09:22. > :09:27.a National Executive Committee, like the other parties. So who runs it?
:09:28. > :09:32.The National Executive Committee, in conjunction with Nigel Farage, the
:09:33. > :09:35.MEPs, the spokespeople, it is a joint effort. Your Local Government
:09:36. > :09:40.Minister Stosur is, if you vote UKIP, you go on to pledge that your
:09:41. > :09:51.councillors will not toe the party line, how does that work? -- your
:09:52. > :09:55.local government manifesto says... On the main policies, they will toe
:09:56. > :09:59.the party line, because that is obviously what people will be voting
:10:00. > :10:04.for. It is no good putting forward a manifesto like the Lib Dems did on
:10:05. > :10:10.2010 and going back on it. We have put forward a lot of positive -- a
:10:11. > :10:15.lot of policies at local government level, and those we will stick to.
:10:16. > :10:18.But when it comes to individual, local issues, say, a particular
:10:19. > :10:24.development or the closure of a school, whatever, UKIP then will
:10:25. > :10:28.vote what they think is in the best interests of the people in the
:10:29. > :10:34.borough, and not according to any party whip system. This plays out
:10:35. > :10:37.really well on the doorstep, I find. People do not want their politicians
:10:38. > :10:41.to be in the pockets of their party, putting party first, ahead of
:10:42. > :10:46.the people. You want people to vote to leave the European Union in a
:10:47. > :10:50.referendum - have you published a road map as to what would then
:10:51. > :10:55.happen? Yes, there will be a road map. The Lisbon Treaty for the first
:10:56. > :11:00.time gave us that exit opportunity. Have you published a road map? I am
:11:01. > :11:05.not the legal expert on this but there are ways in which you can come
:11:06. > :11:08.out of Europe fairly quickly. There is a longer you all as well. But
:11:09. > :11:15.have you published any of that detail? Not that I have read. But
:11:16. > :11:19.certainly there are ways to do it. We are the sixth strongest world
:11:20. > :11:22.economy, I think we are in a strong position having left the EU to be
:11:23. > :11:27.able to negotiate a very good trade deal with the European Union. It is
:11:28. > :11:35.what people voted for in 1975. What would be our exact status? It would
:11:36. > :11:39.be I think what people voted for back in 1975. An independent,
:11:40. > :11:43.sovereign country in a trade agreement, a very positive and
:11:44. > :11:49.valuable trade agreement with the European Union. I voted in that
:11:50. > :11:54.referendum, I remember it well, 1975 involved the free movement of people
:11:55. > :12:00.'s... That is something which I do not think UKIP or the country wants.
:12:01. > :12:09.70% of people now are deeply concerned about immigration. So it
:12:10. > :12:13.would not be 1975, then? Andrew, it sounds like you are complaining that
:12:14. > :12:19.we might have something which is better than 1975. I am just trying
:12:20. > :12:23.to find out what it is! That sounds like positive to me. We will
:12:24. > :12:27.negotiate a trade deal and all manner of issues, whatever is best
:12:28. > :12:31.for the British people. We want our sovereignty back, we want our
:12:32. > :12:36.country back. Would you be upset if a bunch of Rumanian men moved in
:12:37. > :12:40.next door to you? Where I live, I am surrounded by one and two-bedroom
:12:41. > :12:45.flats. If ten Rumanian men moved in next door to me, I would want to ask
:12:46. > :12:55.questions. That is very different from say a Robinho family moving in
:12:56. > :12:59.next door. I would think, are they being ripped off, are they up to no
:13:00. > :13:03.good or are they perhaps being trafficked by a gang master? So I
:13:04. > :13:07.think it would be of concern, and I do not think there is anything wrong
:13:08. > :13:10.with that, it is a humanitarian approach. That would be different
:13:11. > :13:13.from a family moving in who were learning to speak English, who
:13:14. > :13:19.wanted to contribute to the British economy. Maybe if your boss is
:13:20. > :13:28.watching, he will now have found out how to answer that question.
:13:29. > :13:36.Now, what is more glamorous, 24 hours in the life of a
:13:37. > :13:41.counter-terrorism agent, or 12 hours in the life of Adam Fleming, on the
:13:42. > :13:47.campaign trail? I will let you make up your own mind. So, it is eight
:13:48. > :13:52.o'clock in the morning here in Westminster. Today's challenge is,
:13:53. > :13:57.how much campaigning for the local and European elections can we fit
:13:58. > :14:02.into 12 hours? See you back here at eight o'clock tonight. Wish me
:14:03. > :14:09.luck. With my cameraman and producer, we went to Thurrock in
:14:10. > :14:20.Essex first. I got a very, very warm welcome from Abe buoyant UKIP. They
:14:21. > :14:26.have never had this much attention. One candidate's misdemeanour ends up
:14:27. > :14:28.on the front page. But you have got Lib Dem candidates being convicted
:14:29. > :14:32.of racially aggravated assault, and that was not on the front pages of
:14:33. > :14:39.the newspapers. Houdini is fine but it must be applied evenly. Have you
:14:40. > :14:47.had to sack Thurrock UKIP members for dodgy tweets or anything? Oh,
:14:48. > :14:51.God, no. Next we head to meet a top Tory in a different area. We are
:14:52. > :14:57.heading to Eastbourne. But stuck in traffic. We are going to miss
:14:58. > :15:01.William Hague. We got there, just in time, to ask the really big
:15:02. > :15:06.questions. David Cameron went to Nando De Colo last week, where are
:15:07. > :15:13.you going to go for lunch? I do not even get time for lunch. I think
:15:14. > :15:18.something in the back of the car. We will go down the street and see what
:15:19. > :15:22.people have got to say. Even the Foreign Secretary has depressed the
:15:23. > :15:34.flesh at election time? Even the Foreign Secretary meets real people.
:15:35. > :15:40.The message William Hague impresses upon everyone he meets is that the
:15:41. > :15:48.Tories are the only party offering a referendum on our membership of the
:15:49. > :15:53.EU. He's off for lunch in the limo. I've got five minutes by the beach.
:15:54. > :16:00.This is the best thing about elections, lunch. Do you want one?
:16:01. > :16:03.And chips are weirdly relevant at our next stop - the Green Party
:16:04. > :16:07.battle bus which is parked in Ashford in Kent. What is special
:16:08. > :16:16.about this vehicle? It runs from chip fat oil so it is more friendly
:16:17. > :16:25.to the environment. But boss was boiling. The next stop is Gillingham
:16:26. > :16:27.to see Labour. Labour have just hired Barack Obama's election guru
:16:28. > :16:34.David Axelrod to help them craft their message. What does David
:16:35. > :16:45.Axelrod know about the people who live on the street? I know the local
:16:46. > :16:49.details but you handle those. Ed Miliband and his party have had to
:16:50. > :16:51.handle a few dodgy opinion polls lately, prompting some leadership
:16:52. > :17:00.speculation from one activist. Who is your favourite Labour politician?
:17:01. > :17:08.Ed Balls. Back in the car and we're flagging. Final stop, Southwark in
:17:09. > :17:16.south London. We are in the right place, this is Simon Hughes' Lib Dem
:17:17. > :17:22.taxi. The Lib Dems are campaigning as the party of in. But are they in
:17:23. > :17:29.trouble? Your party president said the party would be wiped out and
:17:30. > :17:36.lose its MEPs. Is that helpful? If he did say that, then no, that's not
:17:37. > :17:40.terribly helpful. And let's not forget, every London council is
:17:41. > :17:44.having elections too. I have 40 minutes to get back to the office in
:17:45. > :17:50.Westminster, which calls for something drastic, like this. After
:17:51. > :17:58.212 miles, but will be make it home for eight? We have made it, aided,
:17:59. > :18:10.12 hours of pure politics. Happy elections, everyone.
:18:11. > :18:18.Adam Fleming impersonating Jack Bauer! Natalie Bennett is in our
:18:19. > :18:22.studio, welcome back. The Greens used to be the upcoming party in
:18:23. > :18:34.Britain, now it is UKIP. What went wrong? We are in a very good place,
:18:35. > :18:38.looking towards travelling our MEPs and we could be the fourth largest
:18:39. > :18:43.group in Parliament after these elections. More and more people are
:18:44. > :18:49.recognising we are the only party calling for real change, the only
:18:50. > :18:54.party saying we have two stop making poor, disadvantaged young people
:18:55. > :19:00.over the mistakes bankers. You have made a strong pro-environment stands
:19:01. > :19:06.synonymous with the politics of the left, why have you done that? Why
:19:07. > :19:10.should an equal minded Conservative vote for you? I think one of the
:19:11. > :19:17.reasons why many Conservatives, I met them in Chester where they are
:19:18. > :19:23.stopping coalbed methane exploration, lots of Conservatives
:19:24. > :19:27.are looking to vote for us beyond issues like fracking and the Green
:19:28. > :19:32.belt, and many of them are concerned about the fact we haven't reformed
:19:33. > :19:37.the banks. This morning we had the Bank of England chief coming out and
:19:38. > :19:42.saying we have a huge house price bubble and people recognise that
:19:43. > :19:55.many of the parties offering the same are not working. And yet the
:19:56. > :19:59.polls show that the hardline greenery is not winning. We are
:20:00. > :20:04.looking to travel our number of MEPs and we have people recognising that
:20:05. > :20:08.we have to change the way our economic 's, politics and society
:20:09. > :20:11.works so that everyone has sufficient resources within the
:20:12. > :20:19.limits of the one planet because one planet is all we have got. You want
:20:20. > :20:24.all electricity to be generated by renewables, is that right? So where
:20:25. > :20:30.would the electricity come from on days when the wind is not blowing?
:20:31. > :20:36.Most of the electricity is there. It is mature. We need to be hooked into
:20:37. > :20:41.a European wide grid, we need a smart grid that will allow for
:20:42. > :20:48.demand to be adjusted according to supply. So we would take French
:20:49. > :20:56.nuclear power, would we? We need to work with a partnership across
:20:57. > :21:01.Europe. We are being left behind and we are losing opportunities. 50% of
:21:02. > :21:05.German renewable electricity is owned by communities and it stays
:21:06. > :21:16.within communities, rather than the big six energy companies. So you
:21:17. > :21:27.have still got to take the French nuclear power. What we need to
:21:28. > :21:33.do... Nuclear is a dead technology, going down in the developed world.
:21:34. > :21:38.At the moment the Government proposes the most expensive proposal
:21:39. > :21:44.for Britain and yet the last two plans took 17 years to bring online,
:21:45. > :21:48.way too slow for what we need now. We know what the Green council would
:21:49. > :21:53.be like if you were to win more seats on Thursday because you run
:21:54. > :21:59.Brighton. Your own Green MP joined strikers against the council, the
:22:00. > :22:03.local Greens are at each other's throats, a council ridden with
:22:04. > :22:09.factionalism, attempts to raise council tax to 5%, attempted coups
:22:10. > :22:14.against the local Green leader by other Greens and you have had to
:22:15. > :22:19.bring in mediators. If you look at the life of people in Brighton and
:22:20. > :22:24.Hove, it has seen its visitor numbers go up by 50,000, it has
:22:25. > :22:31.become the top seaside resort in Britain, we have seen GCSE results
:22:32. > :22:37.going up significantly. These are the things affecting people's lives
:22:38. > :22:43.in Brighton and Hove. 60% of Brighton and Hove people think life
:22:44. > :22:48.is better and the Greens. We have a debate to be had from next year's
:22:49. > :22:53.election and perhaps we can have that debate next year. But you hold
:22:54. > :22:58.up Brighton as the way the city should be run? We have made huge
:22:59. > :23:06.progress, we have found money to be brought into the city to improve
:23:07. > :23:11.Green spaces. I was on the big ride in London yesterday, and we need to
:23:12. > :23:15.change our roads so they worked the people as well as cars. Which side
:23:16. > :23:24.of the picket line were you on in Brighton? With Caroline Lucas? I was
:23:25. > :23:30.in London, travelling around as I do most days. From Penzance to
:23:31. > :23:46.Newcastle and many areas in between. Probably a good move. Thank you. I'm
:23:47. > :24:16.joined now by the Conservative MP, the Lib Dem MP Simon Hughes and
:24:17. > :24:20.Sajid Javid. We want to see a European Union resolutely focused on
:24:21. > :24:25.the single market, free trade, and only we can bring about that change.
:24:26. > :24:30.Labour and Lib Dems are happy with the status quo, in fact they would
:24:31. > :24:37.like more integration, and a UKIP party can not deliver the change.
:24:38. > :24:41.Hilary Benn, at this stage positions usually romp home in European
:24:42. > :24:46.elections and no party has gone on to form a government without winning
:24:47. > :24:53.the European elections first. Now it suggests you could become second,
:24:54. > :24:58.you haven't handled UKIP very well either. There is a lot of alienation
:24:59. > :25:03.from politics around, globalisation has left some behind and people are
:25:04. > :25:08.concerned about that but UKIP will not provide the answer. Nigel Farage
:25:09. > :25:12.only talks about Europe. We are to hear it would not be in the
:25:13. > :25:17.interests of British people to come out of Europe. We do want a season
:25:18. > :25:24.change in Europe, for example we want longer periods when new member
:25:25. > :25:28.states come in. We don't think child tax credits should be paid to
:25:29. > :25:34.children not living in the UK, but Nigel Farage is also proposing to
:25:35. > :25:40.charge us when we see the GP, to halve maternity pay, and he wants a
:25:41. > :25:44.flat tax. UKIP is not the answer to the problems we face and we will
:25:45. > :25:54.continue to campaign as we have done to show that we are putting forward
:25:55. > :25:59.policies on energy prices, and in the end that is what people will
:26:00. > :26:06.look for. Simon Hughes, you will be lucky to come forth. The voters
:26:07. > :26:11.decide these things. Really? I never knew that. My response to the UKIP
:26:12. > :26:17.question is that they get support because they have never been in
:26:18. > :26:23.power, they are never likely. A bit like the way you used to never get
:26:24. > :26:31.into power. I accept that, but now we are in government. The reality is
:26:32. > :26:36.that laws made in Brussels, we make together by agreement, and it is the
:26:37. > :26:45.case from the Commons figures that only seven out of 100 laws are made
:26:46. > :26:52.in Brussels. Actually they have been shown not to be the only ones. 14
:26:53. > :27:01.out of 100. If we were to come out of Europe, we would seriously
:27:02. > :27:07.disadvantage our economics and the jobs... 3 million jobs depend on the
:27:08. > :27:10.European Union. If the Conservatives comes third or even a poor second,
:27:11. > :27:15.it will show that people don't really trust your promise about
:27:16. > :27:20.European referendum. They have been there before, they don't trust you.
:27:21. > :27:26.What we have already shown, despite being in coalition with Liberal
:27:27. > :27:29.Democrats, we have shown progress on Europe, we have vetoed a European
:27:30. > :27:34.treaty when people said we wouldn't, we have cut the European
:27:35. > :27:40.budget which is something Liberal Democrats and Labour MEPs voted
:27:41. > :27:48.against, we cut it by ?8 billion. But overall we are still paying
:27:49. > :27:53.more. We have still cut it. We have taken Britain out of the bailout
:27:54. > :27:59.fund that Labour signed us up to. We are now going to take that same
:28:00. > :28:04.energy to Europe and renegotiate our relationship and let the British
:28:05. > :28:13.people decide in a referendum. Why has Ed Miliband become such a
:28:14. > :28:18.liability for your party? Even your own MPs are speaking out against
:28:19. > :28:23.him. If you look at the polls, we have been in the lead almost
:28:24. > :28:27.consistently. The voters will decide. Ed Miliband is a decent man,
:28:28. > :28:34.but what really marks him out is that he is thinking about the
:28:35. > :28:46.problems the country faces. Simon and Sajid both support the bedroom
:28:47. > :28:49.tax, we will scrap it. Ed Miliband said the energy market doesn't work
:28:50. > :28:58.for consumers, we will freeze energy prices while we change the system.
:28:59. > :29:07.So why are his ratings even lower than Nick Clegg's? They will be
:29:08. > :29:11.voted for next year in the general election, and if I were David
:29:12. > :29:17.Cameron I would ask myself this question - the economy is
:29:18. > :29:21.recovering, why is it that David Cameron and the Conservatives have
:29:22. > :29:26.been behind in the polls? Because in the end the big choice in British
:29:27. > :29:31.politics is between the two parties that say, if we sought the deficit
:29:32. > :29:35.everything is fine, and Labour who say that there are things about this
:29:36. > :29:43.country, the insecurity that has given rise for support for UKIP, and
:29:44. > :29:46.we are the ones talking about doing something about zero hours
:29:47. > :29:51.contracts. The more your leader bangs on about Europe, the worse
:29:52. > :30:01.your poll ratings get. He is out of the kilter with British people. It
:30:02. > :30:04.may not be a majority of people who think that we ought to stay in the
:30:05. > :30:10.European Union, but when you speak to people about it, people
:30:11. > :30:14.understand that we are better in them out. In the elections on
:30:15. > :30:18.Thursday, that is not about who runs Britain, that is for next year. In
:30:19. > :30:23.terms of the local councils, we have battles on the ground, like in my
:30:24. > :30:26.community, where we are trying to take it back from the Labour Party.
:30:27. > :30:33.Affordable housing has just not been delivered. We have delivered that in
:30:34. > :30:38.office and we had admitted to that. -- we are committed to that. Labour
:30:39. > :30:44.have actually demolished homes. So, people want more affordable homes.
:30:45. > :30:48.One issue which is behind people's antipathy towards immigrants is that
:30:49. > :30:51.they cannot get the affordable housing they need. We as a
:30:52. > :30:57.government have delivered more affordable housing in this
:30:58. > :31:02.Parliament -170,000 new properties earning and more, over the next
:31:03. > :31:11.three years. That does not work out that very many per year. Overall
:31:12. > :31:18.housing is a lot less than it was in 2006. Let me tell you, under the
:31:19. > :31:21.Labour government, we lost nearly half a million affordable homes.
:31:22. > :31:29.Fewer built than under Mrs Thatcher or under the coalition. What is your
:31:30. > :31:35.last ditch message to the millions of Tory voters thinking of voting
:31:36. > :31:40.UKIP on Thursday? First, what I would say is, Ed Miliband also said
:31:41. > :31:45.that we should not tackle the deficit, it was not a priority. As a
:31:46. > :31:49.result of our resolute focus, we now have the fastest growing economy in
:31:50. > :31:53.the developed world, and more people employed than ever before. I am sure
:31:54. > :31:57.you will have more chance to say that at the general election, what
:31:58. > :32:02.is the answer to my question? We need a Europe which is focused on
:32:03. > :32:06.free trade and the single market. Labour and Lib Dems are happy with
:32:07. > :32:09.the status quo, we are not. We are the only party which can bring about
:32:10. > :32:20.change, UKIP cannot bring about any change. Hilary Benn, why not have a
:32:21. > :32:24.referendum on Europe? If you think like Nigel Farage that you should
:32:25. > :32:28.get out of Europe, I do not agree with him, because Britain's future
:32:29. > :32:31.lies in Europe. My message simply would be, vote for a party which
:32:32. > :32:36.wants to tackle insecurity in the workplace, to give more security to
:32:37. > :32:43.the 9 million people who are now privately renting, build more homes.
:32:44. > :32:46.What Simon has just said about the coalition's housing record, it has
:32:47. > :32:50.been appalling, the lowest level since Stanley Baldwin was Prime
:32:51. > :32:54.Minister. With Labour, you have got a party which will freeze energy
:32:55. > :33:00.prices, more childcare, policies which directly address the problems
:33:01. > :33:03.which people face. I think the public will realise that. UKIP
:33:04. > :33:08.offers absolutely nothing at all for the future of the country. You used
:33:09. > :33:13.to be in favour of a referendum? We are in favour, we voted for one, we
:33:14. > :33:17.have legislated for one. The next time there is a change between
:33:18. > :33:23.Britain and Europe, in the relationship, there will be a
:33:24. > :33:28.referendum. We have supported that. We voted for it. You would obviously
:33:29. > :33:35.want to vote yes in any referendum. We would. But if you had one now, it
:33:36. > :33:39.would be for coming out or staying in, and you are going to wait until
:33:40. > :33:45.there is another step son shall transfer of powers to Brussels, and
:33:46. > :33:51.then say to people, either vote for this substantial transfer or vote to
:33:52. > :33:59.leave! Of course they will vote to leave! Yes, we are not natural
:34:00. > :34:04.partners with the Conservatives, but we do not want to be distracted at
:34:05. > :34:07.the moment by a referendum in the future in relation to Europe.
:34:08. > :34:14.Because what we have done is built our own economy back. That has been
:34:15. > :34:18.the priority. We do not want artificial priorities. The Tories
:34:19. > :34:23.want an artificial date plucked out of the air for their own advantage.
:34:24. > :34:26.We say, let's get on with being positive about being in Europe, and
:34:27. > :34:30.many people on the doorstep absolutely understand that.
:34:31. > :34:34.Yesterday, the Energy Minister said that he thought the party would be
:34:35. > :34:41.willing to campaign for a British withdrawal from the EU if there was
:34:42. > :34:47.not a successful negotiation, a successful repatriation, do you
:34:48. > :34:57.agree with that? First of all, I am very optimistic... I got that I am
:34:58. > :35:00.going into these negotiations with confidence but Michael Fallon is one
:35:01. > :35:05.of your ministerial colleagues, he said that if we cannot get a deal on
:35:06. > :35:09.substantial repatriation, then the party should be willing to campaign
:35:10. > :35:14.for a British withdrawal - do you agree? My view is that I am
:35:15. > :35:18.confident we will get a deal, and then we will put it to the British
:35:19. > :35:23.people. But you will have to take a line. If you do not get substantial
:35:24. > :35:26.repatriations, will you side with Michael Fallon all with the Prime
:35:27. > :35:32.Minister, who seems to want to stay in regardless? I may only have been
:35:33. > :35:34.in politics for four years, but I am not going to ask that kind of
:35:35. > :35:41.hypothetical question. Every question I ask is hypothetical, that
:35:42. > :35:44.is the fascination of the programme! I go into these negotiations with
:35:45. > :35:52.complete confidence. If you look at our track record, it suggests we
:35:53. > :35:56.will be successful. Hilary Benn, what is the difference between your
:35:57. > :36:01.attitude and that of the Lib Dems towards a referendum? We have been
:36:02. > :36:06.very clear that if it is proposed at sometime in the future, further
:36:07. > :36:10.powers would be transferred, then, we would put that to the British
:36:11. > :36:15.people in a referendum. That is the Lib Dem position. This is our
:36:16. > :36:21.position, which I am planing to you. It would be an in-out referendum. We
:36:22. > :36:26.would only agree to a transfer of powers if we thought that it was in
:36:27. > :36:29.the interest of Britain. But we believe that Britain's place remains
:36:30. > :36:36.and should remain in Europe, for economic reasons. But we also want
:36:37. > :36:42.to see some changes in our relationship with Europe, and
:36:43. > :36:49.electing Labour MEPs on Thursday will be a way of boosting that
:36:50. > :36:54.argument. In what way is everything you have just said not entirely sell
:36:55. > :37:01.my must with the Lib Dem position? I am not worried about that. --
:37:02. > :37:04.entirely synonymous. It is the dividing line between us and UKIP,
:37:05. > :37:08.because they somehow believe that Britain leaving the European Union
:37:09. > :37:14.would be good for our economy. Truth is, it would be really bad, because
:37:15. > :37:26.so many jobs depend on being part of a large market in an increasingly
:37:27. > :37:30.globalised world. I have got one more question for you on the locals.
:37:31. > :37:33.We seem to have lost our connection with Leeds. What is the single most
:37:34. > :37:38.important reason that people should vote for you in the local election?
:37:39. > :37:42.Because taxpayers' money is just that, it does not belong to the
:37:43. > :37:46.politicians, and we can do a lot more and get more for less with
:37:47. > :37:49.taxpayers money. If you look at Conservative councils up and down
:37:50. > :37:52.the country, most of them have not been raising council tax, they have
:37:53. > :37:58.been getting more for less, and that is what people deserve. We will
:37:59. > :38:01.produce the maximum amount possible of affordable housing to meet the
:38:02. > :38:05.housing needs of Britain, instead of the richest minority having flats
:38:06. > :38:15.and houses that nobody can afford. We seem to have lost Hilary Benn. I
:38:16. > :38:18.can answer for him. I will do it - he would certainly say, vote Labour.
:38:19. > :38:30.You are watching The Sunday Politics.
:38:31. > :38:32.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. You know it's
:38:33. > :38:35.election time when the studio gets a make over! The local government
:38:36. > :38:40.elections are just four days away, so how are those we send to our new
:38:41. > :38:46.super councils going to deal with contentious flags and emblems in
:38:47. > :38:50.their brave new world? It does not matter what you do in terms of new
:38:51. > :38:54.institutions, at the heart of everything there is still a
:38:55. > :38:58.dichotomy between Sinn Fein and the DUP, between republicanism and
:38:59. > :39:00.unionism. In this special extended programme we'll hear from
:39:01. > :39:03.representatives of the five main parties ahead of Thursday's poll.
:39:04. > :39:06.And with social media playing a more important role than ever in the
:39:07. > :39:10.council and European elections, we ask how our politicians are facing
:39:11. > :39:15.up to the online challenges and opportunities. That is the first
:39:16. > :39:18.place that a lot of people will go when they want to get information on
:39:19. > :39:23.what is happening with the parties, individual candidates, policies and
:39:24. > :39:27.the general campaigns. And to discuss all of that and more, I'm
:39:28. > :39:33.joined by the academic Orna Young and the journalist and commentator
:39:34. > :39:37.Paul McFadden. Thursday's elections will decide who represents us in
:39:38. > :39:40.Europe and in the eleven new super-councils. But as ever it's at
:39:41. > :39:45.Stormont where the major political game is played out, and it looks as
:39:46. > :39:48.if the next head to head battle will be centred on getting a budget
:39:49. > :39:52.through. The Finance Minister, Simon Hamilton, told me on The View last
:39:53. > :39:55.week that a deal has to be done next month or else every department in
:39:56. > :39:59.the Executive will face serious cuts come August. But Sinn Fein says the
:40:00. > :40:02.DUP needs to join it in telling Westminster to back away from its
:40:03. > :40:04.decision to start penalising Stormont for not implementing
:40:05. > :40:11.welfare reform. Let's hear the thoughts of today's commentators,
:40:12. > :40:18.Orna Young and Paul McFadden. You're both welcome. Nice to see you. Do
:40:19. > :40:21.you think, Paul, voters getting ready for the polling station will
:40:22. > :40:25.see this as part of election rhetoric or is it sinking in that
:40:26. > :40:33.there is a real problem that needs to be sorted? I assume that Simon
:40:34. > :40:38.Hamilton when he says what he does is getting reliable information from
:40:39. > :40:42.his counterpart in the Treasury. I accept it when he says that we are
:40:43. > :40:49.only going to get so much money here, but I also say, when you
:40:50. > :40:53.consider that the DUP say that they managed to wangle certain
:40:54. > :40:57.concessions out of Westminster, for example on issues like bedroom tax,
:40:58. > :41:03.that says to me that had people gone with a solid case, they might have
:41:04. > :41:07.managed to secure more out of Westminster and the Treasury and I
:41:08. > :41:13.think if you imagine if our politicians had gone together, there
:41:14. > :41:16.would have been an opportunity to do something significant. That is
:41:17. > :41:21.difficult to achieve. There is an all followed of the text that they
:41:22. > :41:26.did not seem to agree on. Behind-the-scenes we hear that there
:41:27. > :41:32.is a paper which all sides had agreed on. Looking at it from one
:41:33. > :41:35.perspective, it shows mistrust between the parties generally, in
:41:36. > :41:41.terms of working together. I think we need to look at it in terms of
:41:42. > :41:47.more productive workings from the Assembly more generally, in terms of
:41:48. > :41:51.singing of the same hymn sheet, but also working work productively on
:41:52. > :41:57.the ground, putting measures in place, these cuts are coming, it
:41:58. > :42:02.will happen. It is about preparing people for these changes. It is a
:42:03. > :42:08.double whammy, we have more austerity cuts coming, that is in
:42:09. > :42:14.the public realm. We have these other potential cut according to
:42:15. > :42:22.Simon Hamilton as well. We are looking at DETI which is responsible
:42:23. > :42:32.for supporting the City Of Culture in Londonderry. The figures are
:42:33. > :42:36.quite frightening. If you speak to people at a community level, they
:42:37. > :42:41.are suggesting that the cuts could be even more severe. The impact will
:42:42. > :42:48.be felt in places like Londonderry, the impact of these cuts could be
:42:49. > :42:58.catastrophic. We will hear more from you later. Very soon the existing 26
:42:59. > :43:03.councils will begin to more of in to just 11. They will get extra powers
:43:04. > :43:11.to deal with planning and tourism, but the new generation of
:43:12. > :43:16.councillors will face challenges. Symbols, flags, emblems, councils
:43:17. > :43:20.already have to deal with some of the most divisive issues in Northern
:43:21. > :43:24.Ireland and sometimes the impact of those decisions affect the wider
:43:25. > :43:29.political climate. In 2012, one decision had an impact well beyond
:43:30. > :43:34.its locality. Belfast City Council's vote to fly the union flag
:43:35. > :43:40.on designated days, sparked weeks of protest, and number of which turned
:43:41. > :43:44.violent. The talks chaired by Richard Haass aim to find a
:43:45. > :43:48.solution, but there was no agreement. The legislation on local
:43:49. > :43:53.government reform does not mention flags so the issue may feature in
:43:54. > :43:58.the new meetings of the councils. Those will be hugely difficult. It
:43:59. > :44:03.is like everything, no matter how much you agree on planning or the
:44:04. > :44:07.environment, the big issues will be the flags and parades. I would like
:44:08. > :44:23.to think that these councils will look at it at a local level and
:44:24. > :44:26.think what is the best thing for the towns and villages, what is the best
:44:27. > :44:28.way to make this place more attractive and ease tensions. I fear
:44:29. > :44:31.that they will take their steer from the headquarters and if they say it
:44:32. > :44:34.is the flag 360 by days or nothing, they will go for that. The danger of
:44:35. > :44:41.that is that this will cause divisions. Among the other decisions
:44:42. > :44:45.is whether to carry over freedoms of the borough, Unionist councils have
:44:46. > :44:49.given these two military regiments. There are questions about what other
:44:50. > :44:56.symbols will feature outside council buildings. This will depend on the
:44:57. > :44:59.political make-up of the councils. We can tell from previous election
:45:00. > :45:05.results that of the 11 councils there will be split, six will be
:45:06. > :45:13.Unionist dominated, four will dominated by Sinn Fein and Belfast
:45:14. > :45:17.will remain split with Alliance are holding the rounds of power. Some
:45:18. > :45:22.places may see more profound changes than others. The biggest council in
:45:23. > :45:27.terms of landmass will stretch all the way from the north-west to the
:45:28. > :45:32.eastern coast. Two Unionist controlled councils will merge with
:45:33. > :45:38.two councils with nationalist majorities. The newly formed
:45:39. > :45:41.Causeway Council will take on some of our most famous tourism aspects
:45:42. > :45:47.and it will be very politically diverse. This is Dungiven at the
:45:48. > :45:52.western end of the new district. The street names and street art
:45:53. > :45:57.indicated the political allegiances. Dungiven is currently
:45:58. > :46:01.in a council area which has an nationalist majority. When the new
:46:02. > :46:04.local authority takes over, but is unlikely to be the case. It is
:46:05. > :46:09.thought that the new super council will have a small Unionist
:46:10. > :46:16.majority. The editor of the local newspaper says it will be a
:46:17. > :46:20.different experience for nationalist councillors. It will be an
:46:21. > :46:28.unsettling time for their -- for them to adjust. Equally, for
:46:29. > :46:33.Unionist members, I know the way that the super councils were chosen,
:46:34. > :46:38.Unionist members were more pleased with it than the nationalist
:46:39. > :46:43.members. In contrast to Limavady, cold rain council is predominantly
:46:44. > :46:54.Unionist and it is one of several local authorities which fly the
:46:55. > :46:59.union flag every day -- Coleraine. It flies there all year and that is
:47:00. > :47:02.the way it has always been. Sinn Fein are on record as saying that
:47:03. > :47:07.they will have an issue with that. They will have an issue with all the
:47:08. > :47:12.trappings of unionism which they say are present in the council chamber
:47:13. > :47:19.in Coleraine. That is the obvious one which will kick things off
:47:20. > :47:24.macro. I do think it is important to remember that councils need to deal
:47:25. > :47:29.with bins and leisure centres and on these issues, councillors tend to
:47:30. > :47:33.get on very well. That is generally true of most local authorities, so
:47:34. > :47:38.will the new councils be characterised by divisions or
:47:39. > :47:42.agreements? This is how we have to form relationships. It is about
:47:43. > :47:49.working together, thinking together, representing January.
:47:50. > :47:53.These are important issues. Even in Belfast, things have improved,
:47:54. > :47:59.councillors work in a more unified way. Years ago, when it was easy to
:48:00. > :48:03.do so, they did not do it and councils can be a beacon for some
:48:04. > :48:08.sort of normality. It does not matter what you do in terms of new
:48:09. > :48:13.institutions, at the heart of everything, there is still at I got
:48:14. > :48:29.it between Sinn Fein and the DUP, between unionism and nationalism. --
:48:30. > :48:34.dichotomy. There are few places where symbolism is as politically
:48:35. > :48:37.important as their -- as it is in Northern Ireland. Our consular steel
:48:38. > :48:41.with this, will help determine if the new councillors will become
:48:42. > :48:48.symbols of political progress -- councillors. Chris Page highlighting
:48:49. > :48:51.some of the challenges ahead for local government - and joining me
:48:52. > :48:54.now are representatives of the five biggest parties contesting the
:48:55. > :48:57.elections to the new councils on Thursday. With me around the table
:48:58. > :49:00.are Mark Cosgrove from the Ulster Unionist Party, Gavin Robinson from
:49:01. > :49:06.the DUP, Sinn Fein's Deirdre Hargey, Duncan Morrow from the Alliance
:49:07. > :49:11.Party and Clare Hanna from the SDLP. You're all very welcome. Deirdre
:49:12. > :49:14.Hargey. Your party raised the flags issue in Belfast and that led to 18
:49:15. > :49:18.months of disagreement and debate across Northern Ireland. We don't
:49:19. > :49:22.want to go back over the specifics of the Belfast issue, but does Sinn
:49:23. > :49:26.Fein intend to make this an issue in the new councils? Sinn Fein have
:49:27. > :49:29.been very clear and consistent and our message in dealing with this
:49:30. > :49:33.emanates from the Good Friday Agreement where it clearly stated
:49:34. > :49:40.that people have a right to be British, Irish, both or none. We
:49:41. > :49:45.respect those rights, but there is a job of work for unionists to show
:49:46. > :49:55.how are Schmidt is reflected. The issue of the flags at City Hall was
:49:56. > :50:01.one of equality. This has to be reflected in equal manner. That is
:50:02. > :50:05.our position. The agenda by Sinn Fein is anything but. We would
:50:06. > :50:10.respect the right to be British, unionists have to show other people
:50:11. > :50:17.is how they reflect the right to be Irish. I am an Irish citizen, so how
:50:18. > :50:24.will unionists reach out to me and my community in reflecting this?
:50:25. > :50:34.Could the flags issue bedevil the new council? Of course. The Alliance
:50:35. > :50:40.has been consistent, and we have been consistent with the agreement
:50:41. > :50:44.as well. The sensitivity principle is there, the principle that we
:50:45. > :50:48.should fly flags with sensitivity and that this should be consistent
:50:49. > :50:52.across the whole of Northern Ireland. It should also be
:50:53. > :50:57.consistent with the equality condition, and it has been suggested
:50:58. > :51:02.that designated days are the best option. We have been entirely
:51:03. > :51:05.consistent and we believe it should fly across the whole of Northern
:51:06. > :51:13.Ireland and there should be no threat about violence, because the
:51:14. > :51:16.agreement put behind it is surely peaceful and democratic. Gavin
:51:17. > :51:22.Robinson, your party wants to fly the union flag every day of the year
:51:23. > :51:24.from public buildings, but that will not be acceptable to many new
:51:25. > :51:36.councils who will not be controlled by Unionists. I think it is
:51:37. > :51:41.important that, when they considered this discussion, not only is there
:51:42. > :51:45.an issue about consent, and people have accepted the sovereignty of
:51:46. > :51:50.Northern Ireland that we remain part of the United Kingdom, and we need
:51:51. > :51:55.to reflect that in our councils. We have pledged to support and defend
:51:56. > :52:00.symbols of the union. But we are also looking towards building
:52:01. > :52:03.consensus. The three parties to my left ignored consensus politics.
:52:04. > :52:07.They did not seek to reach an agreement was it to foster good
:52:08. > :52:11.relations. What they saw to do was, when they reached a majority, they
:52:12. > :52:18.put on the jackboot, and Sinn Fein, when it is well fast or
:52:19. > :52:21.elsewhere... Lets not get involved in the politics of Belfast
:52:22. > :52:25.specifically, but what other parties have said in the past is that there
:52:26. > :52:31.was a democratic vote and that is how it went. How do you address
:52:32. > :52:35.Deirdre Hargey's Irishness across the new 11 councils in Northern
:52:36. > :52:42.Ireland? New Year people talk of a shared future. It has been very
:52:43. > :52:50.clear whether it has been Belfast, or elsewhere. You do not have Sinn
:52:51. > :52:55.Fein interested in a shared future. They only offer a shared future if
:52:56. > :52:59.you share their view. How do you address her Irish identity? It is
:53:00. > :53:04.important that, given the consent principle, and we are part of the
:53:05. > :53:10.UK, that we reflect that appropriately and in a civic manner.
:53:11. > :53:17.Can that circle be squared? Mark Cosgrove, can you express your
:53:18. > :53:25.party's unionism and also Deirdre Hargey's and Claire Hanna's
:53:26. > :53:31.Irishness? Of course. The sovereign flag of the UK is freely expressed
:53:32. > :53:37.through the Belfast agreement, the union flag. The union flag should be
:53:38. > :53:41.above any form of sectarianism. It is an inclusive symbol. There are
:53:42. > :53:47.other public -- politicians who do not agree. I have no problems with
:53:48. > :53:52.anybody's Irishness or anything else. The United Kingdom has large
:53:53. > :53:56.ethnic minorities from every part of the world and I have no problem with
:53:57. > :54:01.people wanting to express their Irishness through any means they see
:54:02. > :54:06.fit, but the Unionist flag has to be above petty sectarian squabbles. It
:54:07. > :54:10.is the flag of the country. If you're going to have any principle
:54:11. > :54:16.behind not flying the symbol of the United Kingdom, don't take the ?10
:54:17. > :54:22.billion that comes with! How do you respond to that? This doesn't
:54:23. > :54:28.exercise the population as much as it does politicians. Flags on street
:54:29. > :54:33.furniture are a great concern to most people. It will be a tremendous
:54:34. > :54:38.waste if we go into the new councils with a sectarian Ding Dong in each
:54:39. > :54:42.setting the tone. There may be people sitting at home thinking, why
:54:43. > :54:49.are we discussing flags when we could be discussing the issues? The
:54:50. > :54:56.point is, this is going to be 80 issue for the new councils, and
:54:57. > :55:00.there will be opposing views. Absolutely, and we missed a trick by
:55:01. > :55:03.not addressing it. In the second half of last year, people hoped that
:55:04. > :55:06.some issues like flags and emblems and marching and parades and other
:55:07. > :55:11.contentious things would be addressed, but we missed a penalty
:55:12. > :55:15.kick and we have now kicked the can down the road into another set of
:55:16. > :55:19.discussions. We are Democrats and we will respond to any motion that is
:55:20. > :55:29.per towards us in the council, but it is about balance. Our approach is
:55:30. > :55:33.about levelling up, not taking away aspects of other people's cultures.
:55:34. > :55:42.We want to reflect the diversity of the city. There will be other people
:55:43. > :55:51.who say to you, your party supported the naming of a play part in Newry
:55:52. > :55:57.after an IRA man. If the new council decides to do that and continue
:55:58. > :56:02.naming the playpark, will your party support that? I don't think it will.
:56:03. > :56:06.So that was a mistake in the past? I think it was a mistake and there
:56:07. > :56:15.were efforts to try to redress the situation. In the wider agenda, it
:56:16. > :56:19.is about taking a sensitive approach. The flag issue was not
:56:20. > :56:24.thrown into a council meeting. There was about 18 months of negotiation
:56:25. > :56:27.in an attempt to soften the blow. It was not the flag coming down. It was
:56:28. > :56:32.inflammatory leaflets being delivered across Belfast that
:56:33. > :56:37.probably caused the violence that we saw, as much as a democratic
:56:38. > :56:42.decision made by Democrats. So without the leaflets nobody would
:56:43. > :56:46.have minded? Don't talk nonsense! The flag issue illustrates why the
:56:47. > :56:50.good relations question is so central. This will polarise our
:56:51. > :56:53.councils if we do not watch out. We have to be careful that we look for
:56:54. > :56:58.a solution that will work for everyone. The storming solution is a
:56:59. > :57:03.solution that everyone has bought into. It has the only possibility of
:57:04. > :57:08.working in a place like Belfast. We did not jump on a nonconsensual
:57:09. > :57:12.decision. There was a position where people had to choose between one
:57:13. > :57:16.view, which is put the flag up every day, or take it down altogether. We
:57:17. > :57:22.proposed an amendment which was to find consistency on the Stormont
:57:23. > :57:25.deal which reflects the agreement. I still say that, unless we are
:57:26. > :57:31.prepared to sit down and work this one through as parties, a trick was
:57:32. > :57:33.missed and we were told that we would not discuss the flag issue
:57:34. > :57:38.further and it was kicked into touch. It was a mistake and we will
:57:39. > :57:44.regret it. Do you think, briefly, the will will be there for parties
:57:45. > :57:48.to step out of that publicly stated positions and try to make some kind
:57:49. > :57:52.of compromise work across the new 11 councils so that they get off to a
:57:53. > :57:57.fair start? If that doesn't happen, we could be embroiled in discussions
:57:58. > :58:01.like this interminable. It is an important issue, and from the nature
:58:02. > :58:06.of this discussion you can see that it could vex councils, but it
:58:07. > :58:10.needn't rest with councils. It is a bigger issue than Fx local
:58:11. > :58:17.government. There is further discussion to be had. Sinn Fein and
:58:18. > :58:24.the Alliance Party may try to bring forward a motion in local areas and
:58:25. > :58:31.I would be prepared to welcome that progress. On other issues, planning
:58:32. > :58:34.is a big problem for new councils. There are extended powers being
:58:35. > :58:39.given to the new super councils. Trust is a big issue for the public,
:58:40. > :58:43.especially around planning. Parties do not have to publish the names of
:58:44. > :58:50.those who make financial contributions to party coffee is,
:58:51. > :58:55.but there are those who argue determinedly that developers should
:58:56. > :59:00.not have undue influence in new councils. Where do you stand on this
:59:01. > :59:04.issue? With the new powers, we have always wanted names to be published
:59:05. > :59:08.whenever we have a normal security situation, but we cannot sit here in
:59:09. > :59:11.a nice studio in Belfast and pretend that we live in that normal society
:59:12. > :59:17.that we are all trying very positively to build. There are still
:59:18. > :59:20.people who have the threat of their life for their political views, and
:59:21. > :59:24.I would love to see the time... They do not think the situation has
:59:25. > :59:27.changed from a security point of user that it would now be reasonable
:59:28. > :59:30.for names to be published? There would be people who would not
:59:31. > :59:35.support funding political parties if their names were published. The
:59:36. > :59:39.trust issue is very important. How do you square that circle? That is
:59:40. > :59:44.the difficulty, because at the end of the day you are asking people for
:59:45. > :59:48.money and political parties need money from people to exist. People
:59:49. > :59:51.won't give it if they feel as though their name being published and being
:59:52. > :59:55.put into the public domain could lead to a dissident terrorist threat
:59:56. > :00:01.on them or on their business. But I think that is not the name -- main
:00:02. > :00:04.issue on planning. The main issue is the opportunities that it affords
:00:05. > :00:08.the new council. This could be a game changer, because it is not just
:00:09. > :00:13.the devolution of those powers. It is the fact that each council is
:00:14. > :00:17.going to have to draw up its own area plan. All the 21 current policy
:00:18. > :00:20.planning statements, which makes it so difficult to attract inward
:00:21. > :00:25.investment into Northern Ireland, that is going to go. We're going to
:00:26. > :00:28.come up with one single area plan which could really transform
:00:29. > :00:33.Northern Ireland from an investment perspective and getting quick
:00:34. > :00:39.funding decisions. How do you persuade people that these
:00:40. > :00:42.challenges are challenges that the new councillors will be able to rise
:00:43. > :00:49.to? And how do you persuade them that we will not slip into the worst
:00:50. > :00:53.aspects of parish pump? We would publish any donations that come in,
:00:54. > :00:56.and we think any political process should be as transparent as
:00:57. > :01:01.possible. We see this as an excellent opportunity to devolve
:01:02. > :01:06.power to as close to the grass-roots constituents and bases as we can.
:01:07. > :01:10.What about the security issue? We are 16 years into the Good Friday
:01:11. > :01:14.Agreement and in a peace process that has been sustained, although
:01:15. > :01:17.recent events in the last couple of years have shown that we cannot take
:01:18. > :01:22.that process for granted. But we are committed to building the piece, and
:01:23. > :01:27.that is something that we are doing. We want to devolve powers to local
:01:28. > :01:31.councils are so they are closer to the man and woman on the street.
:01:32. > :01:35.There will be a code of conduct within planning powers. We have the
:01:36. > :01:38.new concept of community planning, which will change the lives of
:01:39. > :01:41.people on the ground and how services will be delivered to them
:01:42. > :01:45.and making sure that people have the same standards of service right
:01:46. > :01:51.across the board. I don't think anyone would argue with that. There
:01:52. > :01:55.also also few challenges, though. Yes, and one of the challenges will
:01:56. > :02:03.be the level of maturity required. Planning has seen smaller parties
:02:04. > :02:07.try to build up residential local fears, when planning policy will
:02:08. > :02:09.frustrate the development -- never frustrate the development they are
:02:10. > :02:15.seeking to bring forward. Parties will not be able to do that if --
:02:16. > :02:18.any more and people will have to be more honest about the planning
:02:19. > :02:23.applications and legislation that is there currently. That is good, open
:02:24. > :02:25.and important for local government, but local government getting
:02:26. > :02:29.planning powers is a wonderful opportunity. The idea that you
:02:30. > :02:33.represent a local area, in connection with that local area, you
:02:34. > :02:38.have a passion for the local area... It could lead to concerns on
:02:39. > :02:43.the part of the public that private conversations ensure that certain
:02:44. > :02:48.projects are favoured over others. Do you share Mark Cosgrove's
:02:49. > :02:53.concerns, or should developers that support parties be in the public
:02:54. > :02:56.domain? That is where openness and transparency are so important. Peter
:02:57. > :03:03.Robinson said last week he has no difficulty with the Westminster
:03:04. > :03:07.threshold of ?7,000 for revealing names. But the other party's
:03:08. > :03:10.accounts around this table, we don't get donations of that nature. Our
:03:11. > :03:14.party is supported by grass-roots members, individuals with small
:03:15. > :03:19.contributions, so the notion that people are giving large sums, large
:03:20. > :03:23.donations to parties to get their way to curry favour simply isn't
:03:24. > :03:28.true. Transparency is important to dispel that myth. We have history
:03:29. > :03:32.year. We have history of all sorts of money going in different
:03:33. > :03:37.directions, but this is a great opportunity to bring regeneration,
:03:38. > :03:41.community development and planning into a single space so we get
:03:42. > :03:44.coherence. It will depend on the maturity of politicians. It depends
:03:45. > :03:50.on transparency, and we are in favour of the publication of all of
:03:51. > :03:54.that information. Before Terry had -- we fought very hard to get that
:03:55. > :04:02.into the bill. We also believe that the issue of good relations is
:04:03. > :04:06.important. What we get in town and city needs to be access the ball
:04:07. > :04:11.for, available to the whole community, which is about
:04:12. > :04:14.forward-looking planning. The most vibrant and dynamic shared spaces in
:04:15. > :04:22.towns and cities are quite often High Streets and town centres. I
:04:23. > :04:27.think we need to prioritise that. The strategic planning statement
:04:28. > :04:31.brings together a lot of contradictory statements. Anyone who
:04:32. > :04:35.has had to make a case for or against a planning application will
:04:36. > :04:39.have found it very tickled to marry up the different priorities. I think
:04:40. > :04:44.there is much more of a role for local people. In my experience,
:04:45. > :04:47.people are sensible about planning. They understand the balance between
:04:48. > :04:51.economic regeneration and their own needs, and I think that councillors
:04:52. > :04:58.have to trust people to reflect that. We have to build capacity in
:04:59. > :05:03.consultation with planning professionals to make the best
:05:04. > :05:06.decisions. It is not just about developers in town centres, it can
:05:07. > :05:10.also be about councillors in the countryside who live next door to
:05:11. > :05:13.someone who wants to build a single dwelling in the countryside. What is
:05:14. > :05:17.your position on that? That can be a different kind of Russia, but it can
:05:18. > :05:25.be difficult for councillors in those circumstances -- a different
:05:26. > :05:29.kind of pressure. The opinion of politicians is so low that people
:05:30. > :05:32.think politicians will always make the grubby list decision possible,
:05:33. > :05:35.and they do not think that is true. We're not doing away with
:05:36. > :05:39.professional planners. People have spent years training up in the skill
:05:40. > :05:43.of town planning, and I think this will allow that to come out.
:05:44. > :05:46.Planners will not be boxed off into making minor individual decisions in
:05:47. > :05:50.consultation with political representatives. They will be able
:05:51. > :05:56.to take a wider look at a village or neighbourhood. I hope we do get into
:05:57. > :06:02.the situation where an individual would wave through planning policy.
:06:03. > :06:05.We have to make the whole process as open as possible so that people do
:06:06. > :06:13.not have the possession -- perception that things like that are
:06:14. > :06:17.happening. Local councils can begin to look at planning strategies which
:06:18. > :06:28.will allow for the coordination of services. Gavin Robinson. Your
:06:29. > :06:32.manifesto claims you are the party of low rates, but of the four
:06:33. > :06:35.councils with the lowest rates you have majorities on just TWO of them,
:06:36. > :06:38.so you can't say you are offering something others aren't... It is a
:06:39. > :06:41.political principle. No matter whether we are in control, or we
:06:42. > :06:45.have a strong voice, we continually pushed the message that money spent
:06:46. > :06:48.through councils is public money, it belongs to the people and unless
:06:49. > :06:52.they have confidence that the money is being used appropriately, we
:06:53. > :06:57.should not ask for more. When Belfast was controlled by other
:06:58. > :07:02.parties, there was a 10% rise and the last two years, the rate has
:07:03. > :07:25.been frozen and councils were we have an influence, rates have been
:07:26. > :07:28.frozen in, regional government, because that makes up the other half
:07:29. > :07:31.of the rate bill. We have frozen the rate since 2007 in real terms and
:07:32. > :07:34.when you look across the UK, our bills are half that of Wales. It is
:07:35. > :07:37.about 55% less than England and a third less than Scotland. We are
:07:38. > :07:43.making sure that money is being used appropriately. You talk about
:07:44. > :07:52.supporting tourism, how would you pay for these projects if you're
:07:53. > :07:59.wanting to keep rates low? The new powers that we will be getting, from
:08:00. > :08:02.planning and community powers, it will be about sustainable
:08:03. > :08:07.development and also within villages across the North. We want to work
:08:08. > :08:10.with the business community and protect the most vulnerable in terms
:08:11. > :08:15.of making the changes that need to be made. We have a good opportunity
:08:16. > :08:22.with tourism and that is why we want to invest in our arts sector and
:08:23. > :08:31.create a positive buzz about our town centres. We need to leave it
:08:32. > :08:41.there. We have given people food for thought in terms of this. Thank you
:08:42. > :08:44.for joining us. Thank you. Now, with a look back at the political week in
:08:45. > :08:49.sixty seconds, here's Gareth Gordon... No progress on welfare
:08:50. > :08:54.reform, the Finance Minister says he will slash department budgets by
:08:55. > :08:59.more than 1%. That is a lot of money. That's a lot of services
:09:00. > :09:10.which will go down, a lot of suffering. Disagreements over social
:09:11. > :09:15.housing in north Belfast. If the facts do not fit the theory, change
:09:16. > :09:21.the facts, Alberta and stirring, that is what gerrymandering looks
:09:22. > :09:27.like. The former leader of the PU P, Hugh Smith has died. Large crowds
:09:28. > :09:33.flood to the second Balmoral show to be held at the maze. At the North
:09:34. > :09:39.West 200, and ministers swapped his suit for leathers. He gives me the
:09:40. > :09:44.thrill of motorbike racing. Naughty MLAs said sorry for missing their
:09:45. > :09:49.slots at Question Time. He went along to the Speaker 's office and
:09:50. > :10:05.apologise. I apologise to the House. I want to apologise to the
:10:06. > :10:08.House. Gareth Gordon reporting. When Barack Obama was re-elected as US
:10:09. > :10:11.President in 2012, many commentators said his hugely effective social
:10:12. > :10:14.media campaign gave him the edge over his republican rival. And as
:10:15. > :10:17.the European and council elections approach, there's no doubt that
:10:18. > :10:20.local politicians are putting more effort than ever into their presence
:10:21. > :10:23.online. But just how effectively are they using Facebook and Twitter to
:10:24. > :10:26.communicate with the electorate? That's what we asked people
:10:27. > :10:28.attending a recent 'tweet up' in Belfast... Social media is hugely
:10:29. > :10:31.important and in particular, in the run-up to elections, because the
:10:32. > :10:35.political parties are launching campaigns, there is a huge amount
:10:36. > :10:39.more information and news coming with regards to the elections and I
:10:40. > :10:44.think that is the first place that quite a lot of people will go when
:10:45. > :10:49.they want to get information on what is happening with the parties,
:10:50. > :10:53.individual candidates, policies and the general campaigns. The political
:10:54. > :10:59.parties and candidates are taking to social media and it is a huge change
:11:00. > :11:07.from the last elections. If you really want to engage with people
:11:08. > :11:12.and particularly young people, social media is the quickest and
:11:13. > :11:17.fastest way to do so. We feel closer to our politicians because of it. It
:11:18. > :11:23.could be another way to push out the PR messages they want to hear that
:11:24. > :11:26.they want us to hear. Our politicians have not got to grips
:11:27. > :11:32.with it entirely, they do not see it as a conversation, which they need
:11:33. > :11:35.to. Once they start using it better and we all start using it and
:11:36. > :11:49.working out how the conversations work, it will have a bigger impact.
:11:50. > :11:54.Let us hear from our guests. Some politicians have connected with this
:11:55. > :12:00.and others still do not appear on Twitter. It is very imbalanced. The
:12:01. > :12:05.key thing is considering it is social media and what we are seeing
:12:06. > :12:08.a lot of the time is where politicians are engaging, they are
:12:09. > :12:13.doing it on party political broadcast level, rather than making
:12:14. > :12:18.themselves available to their electorate. Is there a danger that
:12:19. > :12:25.it is a small community preaching to itself? For the vast majority of
:12:26. > :12:33.people in Northern Ireland, is it irrelevant? I think it depends on
:12:34. > :12:38.how you use it. There are examples. Some can use it very well. Look at
:12:39. > :12:52.the Mayor of London who uses it effectively. -- Mayor of London
:12:53. > :13:06.Belfast. -- some people use it badly. I think looking at it, some
:13:07. > :13:12.people have not considered it as a social mechanism. It is important to
:13:13. > :13:17.get a version of yourself across and to communicate ideas, recruit people
:13:18. > :13:21.into politics they may not have considered before. Do you think
:13:22. > :13:27.people will turn out to vote on Thursday? I would not be surprised.
:13:28. > :13:33.I think it will be over 50%. Thank you. I will bring you all the
:13:34. > :13:38.results from the election as the begin to emerge on Friday. Join me
:13:39. > :13:49.for Stormont Today. Thank you for joining us.