:00:39. > :00:44.Good morning, welcome to the Sunday Politics. Senior Liberal Democrats
:00:45. > :00:51.say the public has lost trust in Nick Clegg. They call for him to go
:00:52. > :00:54.after the local election meltdown. And before the likely Europa rove a
:00:55. > :01:00.catastrophe tonight. Labour and Tories struggled to cope with the
:01:01. > :01:04.UKIP insurgency as Nigel Farage hosts his success and declares the
:01:05. > :01:10.UKIP Fox is in the Westminster henhouse.
:01:11. > :01:16.And coming up in half an hour: Sinn Fein and the DUP vie for the title
:01:17. > :01:17.of top party after Thursday's local election. We'll hear claim and
:01:18. > :01:22.counter-claim from the main parties disappeared, UKIP failed to show.
:01:23. > :01:30.More analysis in just over half an hour.
:01:31. > :01:38.Cooped up in the Sunday Politics henhouse, our own boot should --
:01:39. > :01:42.bunch of headless chickens. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh. The
:01:43. > :01:47.Liberal Democrats lost over 300 councillors on Thursday, on top of
:01:48. > :01:51.the losses in previous years, the local government base has been
:01:52. > :01:54.whittled away in many parts of the country. Members of the European
:01:55. > :01:58.Parliament will face a similar comment when the results are
:01:59. > :02:03.announced tonight. A small but growing chorus of Liberal Democrats
:02:04. > :02:08.have called on Nick Clegg to go. This is what the candidate in West
:02:09. > :02:15.Dorset had to say. People know that locally we worked
:02:16. > :02:19.incredibly hard on their councils and as their MPs, but Nick Clegg is
:02:20. > :02:26.perceived to have not been trustworthy in leadership. Do you
:02:27. > :02:33.trust him? He has lacked bone on significant issues that are the core
:02:34. > :02:36.values of our party. This is how the party president
:02:37. > :02:43.responded. At this time, it would be foolish
:02:44. > :02:47.for us as a party to turn in on ourselves. What has separated us
:02:48. > :02:51.from the Conservatives is, while they have been like cats in a sack,
:02:52. > :02:58.we have stood united, and that is what we will continue to do. The
:02:59. > :03:03.major reason why is because we consented to the coalition, unlike
:03:04. > :03:12.the Conservatives. We had a vote, and a full conference.
:03:13. > :03:19.Is there a growing question over Nick Clegg's leadership? Different
:03:20. > :03:23.people have different views. My own view is I need to consult my own
:03:24. > :03:27.activists and members before coming to a conclusion. I am looking at
:03:28. > :03:32.holding a meeting for us to discuss the issue. I have been told by some
:03:33. > :03:36.people they do not think a meeting is required, they think he should
:03:37. > :03:40.stay, and other people have decided he should go. As a responsible
:03:41. > :03:46.Democrat, I should consult the members here before coming to my
:03:47. > :03:51.conclusions. What is your view at the moment? I have got to listen to
:03:52. > :03:59.my members. But you must have some kind of you. Because I have an open
:04:00. > :04:05.mind, I do not think he must stay, I am willing to say I have not made my
:04:06. > :04:09.mind up. From a news point of view, that is my official position. I can
:04:10. > :04:16.assure you there is not much news in that! I said earlier I am not going
:04:17. > :04:22.to say he must go must stay, I am consulting my members. But you must
:04:23. > :04:25.have some kind of view of your own before you have listened to your
:04:26. > :04:30.members. There are people who are wrongfully sanctioned and end up
:04:31. > :04:35.using food banks, I am upset about that, because we should not
:04:36. > :04:39.allow... I do not mind having a sanctioning system, that I get
:04:40. > :04:44.constituents who are put in this position, we should not accept that.
:04:45. > :04:50.I rebel on the issue of a referendum on membership of the EU. I am also
:04:51. > :04:55.concerned about the way the rules have been changed in terms of how
:04:56. > :05:01.parents are treated in their ability to take children to funerals out of
:05:02. > :05:06.school time. There are questions about the leader's responsible T for
:05:07. > :05:10.those policies. Nick Clegg has made it clear he is a staunch
:05:11. > :05:16.pro-European, he wants the Liberal Democrats to be in, he does not want
:05:17. > :05:19.a referendum, if you lose a chunk of your MEPs tonight, what does that
:05:20. > :05:25.say about how in June you are with written public opinion? There are
:05:26. > :05:29.issues with how you publish your policies. I do not agree 100% with
:05:30. > :05:35.what the government is doing or with what Nick Clegg says. I do think we
:05:36. > :05:42.should stay within the EU, because the alternative means we have less
:05:43. > :05:47.control over our borders. There is a presentational issue, because what
:05:48. > :05:50.UKIP want, to leave the EU, is worse in terms of control of borders,
:05:51. > :05:57.which is their main reason for wanting to leave, which is strange.
:05:58. > :06:01.There are debate issues, but I have got personal concerns, I do worry
:06:02. > :06:07.about the impact on my constituents when they face wrongful sanctions.
:06:08. > :06:12.You have said that. A fellow Liberal Democrat MP has compared Nick Clegg
:06:13. > :06:17.to a general at the Somme, causing carnage amongst the troops. I am
:06:18. > :06:22.more interested in the policy issues, are we doing the right
:06:23. > :06:27.things? I do think the coalition was essential, we had to rescue the
:06:28. > :06:31.country from financial problems. My own view on the issue of student
:06:32. > :06:37.finance, we did the right thing, in accordance with the pledge, which
:06:38. > :06:39.was to get a better system, more students are going to university,
:06:40. > :06:45.and more from disadvantaged backgrounds. But there are issues.
:06:46. > :06:50.But Nick Clegg survive as leader through till the next election? It
:06:51. > :06:56.depends what odds you will give me! If you are not going to give me is,
:06:57. > :07:02.I am not going to get! If you listen to John hemming, he has got nothing
:07:03. > :07:09.to worry about. He does have something to worry about, they lost
:07:10. > :07:14.300 seats, on the uniform swing, you would see people like Vince cable
:07:15. > :07:18.and Simon Hughes lose their seats. But nobody wants to be the one to
:07:19. > :07:24.we'll be nice, they would rather wait until after the next election,
:07:25. > :07:31.and then rebuild the party. Yes, there is no chance of him walking
:07:32. > :07:34.away. Somebody like Tim Farron or Vince Cable, whoever the successor
:07:35. > :07:39.is, though have to close the dagger ten months before an election, do
:07:40. > :07:43.they want that spectacle? If I were Nick Clegg, I would walk away, it is
:07:44. > :07:48.reasonably obvious that the left-wing voters who defect had
:07:49. > :07:53.towards the Labour Party in 2010 will not return while he is leader.
:07:54. > :07:59.And anything he was going to achieve historically, the already has done.
:08:00. > :08:04.Unlike David Miliband, sorry, Ed Miliband or David Cameron, he has
:08:05. > :08:08.transformed the identity of the party, they are in government. Had
:08:09. > :08:12.it not been for him, they would have continued to be the main protest
:08:13. > :08:18.party, rather than a party of government. So he has got to take it
:08:19. > :08:22.all the way through until the election. If he left now, he would
:08:23. > :08:27.look like he was a tenant in the conservative house. What we are
:08:28. > :08:33.seeing is an operation to destabilise Nick Clegg, but it is a
:08:34. > :08:36.Liberal Democrat one, so it is chaotic. There are people who have
:08:37. > :08:41.never really been reconciled to the coalition and to Nick Clegg, they
:08:42. > :08:49.are pushing for this. What is Nick Clegg going to do, and Tim Farron?
:08:50. > :08:54.-- what is Vince Cable going to do? Vince Cable is in China, on a
:08:55. > :09:02.business trip. It is like John Major's toothache in 1990. What is
:09:03. > :09:07.Tim Farron doing? He is behind Nick Clegg, because he knows that his
:09:08. > :09:10.best chances of being leader are as the Westland candidate, the person
:09:11. > :09:19.who picks up the mess in a year. Vince Cable's only opportunity is on
:09:20. > :09:22.this side of the election. But you say they are not a party of
:09:23. > :09:30.government, but what looks more likely is overall the -- is no
:09:31. > :09:34.overall control. You might find a common mission looking appealing.
:09:35. > :09:39.They could still hold the balance of power. A lot of people in the Labour
:09:40. > :09:46.Party might say, let's just have a minority government. 30 odds and
:09:47. > :09:52.sods who will not turn up to vote. If they want to be up until 3am
:09:53. > :09:56.every morning, be like that! When you were in short trousers, it was
:09:57. > :10:04.like that every night, it was great fun! The Liberal Democrats will not
:10:05. > :10:10.provide confidence to a minority government, they will pull the plug
:10:11. > :10:17.and behave ruthlessly. Does Nick leg lead the Liberal Democrats into the
:10:18. > :10:21.next election? Yes. Yes. Yes. I am sorry, Nick Clegg, you are
:10:22. > :10:25.finished! We will speak to Paddy Ashdown in the second part of the
:10:26. > :10:29.show to speak about the Liberal Democrats. The UKIP insurgency could
:10:30. > :10:32.not deliver the promised earthquake, but it produced enough shock waves
:10:33. > :10:38.to discombobulated the established parties. They are struggling to work
:10:39. > :10:47.out how to deal with them. We watched it all unfold.
:10:48. > :10:54.Behind the scenes of any election night is intensely busy. Those in
:10:55. > :10:58.charge of party strategy and logistics want their people focused,
:10:59. > :11:02.working with purpose and rehearsed to make sure their spin on the
:11:03. > :11:09.results is what viewers remember and take on board. A bit of a buzz of
:11:10. > :11:15.activity inside the BBC's studio, kept and primed for the results.
:11:16. > :11:19.What this does not show due is the exterior doubles up for hospital
:11:20. > :11:23.dramas like Holby City, there are doorways that are mock-ups of
:11:24. > :11:26.accident and emergency, but the electorate will discover which of
:11:27. > :11:29.the parties they have put into intensive care, which ones are
:11:30. > :11:36.coming out of recovery and which ones are in rude health. We joined
:11:37. > :11:42.David Dimbleby. Good evening, welcome to the BBC's new election
:11:43. > :11:47.centre. When three big beasts become for on the political field, things
:11:48. > :11:51.have changed. Eric Pickles says we will be seen off next year, we will
:11:52. > :11:55.see you at Westminster! This party is going to break through next year,
:11:56. > :12:01.and you never know, we might even hold the balance of power. Old
:12:02. > :12:04.messages that gave voters in excuses to go elsewhere on the ballot paper
:12:05. > :12:08.exposed the older players to questions from within their ranks.
:12:09. > :12:11.In the hen house of the House of Commons, the fox that wants to get
:12:12. > :12:19.in has ruffled feathers. The reason they have had amazing success, a
:12:20. > :12:24.rapid rise, partly what Chuka Umunna says about being a repository, but
:12:25. > :12:29.they have also managed to sound like human beings, and that his Nigel
:12:30. > :12:34.Farage's eight victory. For some conservatives, a pact was the best
:12:35. > :12:38.form of defence. It would be preferable if all members of UKIP
:12:39. > :12:43.and voters became Tories overnight. That seems to be an ambitious
:12:44. > :12:49.proposition. Therefore, we need to do something that welcomes them on
:12:50. > :12:55.board in a slightly different way. Labour had successes, but nobody but
:12:56. > :12:59.they're wizards of Spain was completely buying a big success
:13:00. > :13:02.story. Gaffes behind the scenes and strategic errors were levelled at
:13:03. > :13:08.those who have managed the campaign. They have played a clever game, you
:13:09. > :13:12.shuffle bedecked around, and if UKIP does quite well but not well enough,
:13:13. > :13:18.that helps Labour get in. That kind of mindset will not win the general
:13:19. > :13:22.election, and we saw that in the tap ticks and strategy, and that is why,
:13:23. > :13:28.on our leaflets for the European elections, we chose deliberately not
:13:29. > :13:35.to attack UKIP, that was a bad error. Not so, so somebody who has
:13:36. > :13:39.been in that spotlight. If you look at the electoral maths, UKIP will
:13:40. > :13:43.still be aiming at the Tories in a general election. They are the
:13:44. > :13:47.second party in Rotherham, Labour will always hold what the room, it
:13:48. > :13:52.is safe, there is no point being second in a safe seat. UKIP have
:13:53. > :13:59.taken Castle Point, a Tory seat they will target. The question for the
:14:00. > :14:02.next election, can they make a challenge? The Tories will be under
:14:03. > :14:08.the gun from UKIP. The substance of these results is UKIP not in
:14:09. > :14:11.government, they do not have any MPs, they do not run a single
:14:12. > :14:17.Council, at dismissing them ceased to be an option. The question is,
:14:18. > :14:33.who will they heard most and how do you smoke the keeper's threat?
:14:34. > :14:41.Joining me now, day about and Patrick O'Flynn. Do you agree not
:14:42. > :14:47.enough was done for the elections? No, we have very good results around
:14:48. > :14:52.Hammersmith and Fulham, Croydon, Redbridge, and we picked off council
:14:53. > :15:02.wards in Haringey meaning that Lynne Featherstone and Simon Hughes worked
:15:03. > :15:07.on. The Ashcroft polling shows that in key marginals, we are well ahead
:15:08. > :15:16.and on course to win in 2015. I will be putting Mr Ashcroft's poll to
:15:17. > :15:21.Eric Pickles shortly. On the basis of the local elections your national
:15:22. > :15:26.share of the vote would be just 31%, only two points ahead of the Tories,
:15:27. > :15:32.only two points ahead of Gordon Brown's disastrous performance in
:15:33. > :15:36.2010. Why so low? National share is one thing but I am talking about
:15:37. > :15:45.what we are doing in the key marginals. Clearly some were taken
:15:46. > :15:50.away from others like Rotherham but we have got many voters back. You
:15:51. > :15:56.are only two points better than you were in 2010 and use of your worst
:15:57. > :16:01.defeat in living memory. That is the totality. What matters
:16:02. > :16:06.is seat by seat, that is what the Republicans found in the
:16:07. > :16:11.presidential elections. Patrick O'Flynn, you performed well in the
:16:12. > :16:14.local election but it wasn't an earthquake. It is definitely true
:16:15. > :16:18.that Labour did well in London but that is a double-edged sword because
:16:19. > :16:26.you have an increasing disconnect between the metropolis and the rest
:16:27. > :16:30.of the country. Our vote share was somewhat depressed not just because
:16:31. > :16:35.London is one of our weakest part of the country but because most of the
:16:36. > :16:40.warts in London were 3-member wards and we were typically only putting
:16:41. > :16:44.up one candidate. Even when they fared well, it still tracked down
:16:45. > :16:53.the projected national share. I think we did well, and what was
:16:54. > :17:06.particularly good was getting the target seat list becoming clear
:17:07. > :17:12.before our eyes. Suzanne Evans said that basically smart folk don't vote
:17:13. > :17:17.for UKIP. I think that is a tiny fragment of what she said. She said
:17:18. > :17:20.London is its own entity and is increasingly different from the rest
:17:21. > :17:25.of the country. One of the things that is different from London as
:17:26. > :17:30.opposed to Rotherham is that we have very big parties. I have a few
:17:31. > :17:36.thousand people in mind, Rotherham has a few hundred. People don't go
:17:37. > :17:42.and knock on doors and talk to people, in London we have always had
:17:43. > :17:46.to do that. London is full of young voters, full of ethnically diverse
:17:47. > :17:52.voters, that is why you are not doing well, you don't appeal to live
:17:53. > :17:57.there. I think London in general has a very different attitude to mass
:17:58. > :18:07.uncontrolled immigration. Londoners know that if an immigrant moves in
:18:08. > :18:12.next door to you, to use Nigel Farage's phrase, the world doesn't
:18:13. > :18:19.end tomorrow. People in the big cities know that, that is the point.
:18:20. > :18:26.What Diane Abbott is doing is try to convince London of its moral
:18:27. > :18:31.superiority so I am delighted... It is a simple fact that immigrants do
:18:32. > :18:35.not end the world if they move in next door. The economic recovery is
:18:36. > :18:40.getting more robust by the month, you have a seriously to ship problem
:18:41. > :18:48.according to many people on your own site. Maybe you're 31% of the vote
:18:49. > :18:55.is as good as it gets. Those who go round bitching about Ed Miliband
:18:56. > :19:03.have been doing that before the result. We have all polled very
:19:04. > :19:13.well. Ed Miliband does not polled very well. He has actually fashioned
:19:14. > :19:18.some really effective policies. Unemployment is tumbling, inflation
:19:19. > :19:21.is falling, growth is strengthening, and you have a leader who claims
:19:22. > :19:30.there is a cost of living crisis and he doesn't have a clue about his own
:19:31. > :19:35.cost of living. I think that was poor staff work. That he doesn't
:19:36. > :19:46.know what goes in his own shopping basket? I think his own staff could
:19:47. > :19:50.have prepared him for that. My point is that the numbers are looking
:19:51. > :20:02.better, we know that, but people don't feel better off. Then why are
:20:03. > :20:05.all consumer index polls better? They are feeling confident. They may
:20:06. > :20:11.be saying that, but people are worried about their future, their
:20:12. > :20:16.children's future. That is not what you buy today or tomorrow. If you
:20:17. > :20:19.ask people about their future and their children's future and
:20:20. > :20:25.prospects, they feel frightened. What will be a good result for you
:20:26. > :20:31.in the general election? We need to see Nigel Farage elected as an MP
:20:32. > :20:37.and he mustn't go there on his own. How many people do you think will be
:20:38. > :20:42.with him? Who knows, but we will have 20 to 30 target seat and if you
:20:43. > :20:45.put together the clusters we got in last year's County elections with
:20:46. > :20:51.the one we got this year, you can have a good guess at where they
:20:52. > :20:54.are. A number of people who voted for you and Thursday say they are
:20:55. > :21:00.going to back to the three main parties in general election. It
:21:01. > :21:07.would be foolish of me to say that they are going to stay. Some have
:21:08. > :21:17.said they have just lent their votes but voters hate being taken for
:21:18. > :21:25.granted. It is up to us to broaden our agenda, and build on our
:21:26. > :21:31.strengths, work on our weaknesses. Ed Miliband may have to do a deal
:21:32. > :21:36.with him. We have been here before, but the UKIP bubble is going to
:21:37. > :21:43.burst and that may happen around the time of Newark. Are you going to win
:21:44. > :21:47.Newark now? We are going to give it a really good crack. We love being
:21:48. > :21:55.the underdog, we don't see it as being the big goal -- the be all and
:21:56. > :22:05.end all. If you're going to get a big bounce off the elections, not to
:22:06. > :22:12.go and win your shows people who govern in Parliament, they don't
:22:13. > :22:15.vote for you. It is Labour who have given up the campaign already so we
:22:16. > :22:23.need a really big swing in our favour and we will give it a great
:22:24. > :22:30.crack. The bubble will burst at the Newark by-election, trust me. Have
:22:31. > :22:39.you been to Newark? Newark will see from local people... Where is it? It
:22:40. > :22:44.is outside the M25, I can tell you that. My point is that we are set
:22:45. > :22:48.for victory in 2015. I want to run this clip and get your take on it,
:22:49. > :22:55.an interview that Nigel Farage did with LBC. What they do is they have
:22:56. > :22:58.an auditor to make sure they spend their money in accordance with their
:22:59. > :23:09.rules. You say that is if there is something wrong with it. Hang on,
:23:10. > :23:15.hang on. This is Patrick O'Flynn, is this a friend in the media or a
:23:16. > :23:23.member of the political class? Do you regret doing that now? What were
:23:24. > :23:29.you doing? No, I was trying to get Nigel Farage to a more important
:23:30. > :23:38.interview with Sunday Times that had painstakingly organised. He was on
:23:39. > :23:44.there? I have told the LBC people next door that he was running over.
:23:45. > :23:50.So you interrupted a live interview and you don't regret that? No,
:23:51. > :23:54.because just between us I wasn't a massive enthusiast for that
:23:55. > :23:58.interview taking place at all. I know what James O'Brien is like and
:23:59. > :24:10.I knew it wouldn't be particularly edifying. But your boss wasn't happy
:24:11. > :24:19.with the intervention. Sometimes the boss gets shirty. We all upset our
:24:20. > :24:23.boss every now and again, but anyway you could be an MEP by this time
:24:24. > :24:28.tomorrow and you won't have to do this job any more. You can then just
:24:29. > :24:34.count your salary and your expenses. I will make the contribution my
:24:35. > :24:37.party leader asked me to, to restore Britain to being a self-governing
:24:38. > :24:42.country. Are you going to stay in the job or not? I would not be able
:24:43. > :24:47.to do the job in the same way but I would maybe have some kind of
:24:48. > :24:55.overview. We will leave it there. Yesterday Michael Ashcroft, a former
:24:56. > :25:01.deputy chairman, produced a mammoth opinion poll of more than 26,000
:25:02. > :25:04.voters in 26 marginal constituencies, crucial seat that
:25:05. > :25:09.will decide the outcome of the general election next year. In 26
:25:10. > :25:21.constituencies people were asked which party's candidate they would
:25:22. > :25:26.support, and Labour took a healthy 12 point lead, implying a swing of
:25:27. > :25:35.6.5% from Conservatives to Labour from the last general election. That
:25:36. > :25:44.implies Labour would topple 83 Tory MPs. The poll also shows UKIP in
:25:45. > :25:52.second place in four seats, and three of them are Labour seats.
:25:53. > :25:56.Michael Ashcroft says a quarter of those who say they would vote UKIP
:25:57. > :26:00.supported the Tories at the last election. As many as have switched
:26:01. > :26:05.from Labour and the Lib Dems combined.
:26:06. > :26:11.The communities Secretary Eric Pickles joins me now. The Ashcroft
:26:12. > :26:16.Paul that gives Labour a massive 12 point lead in the crucial marginal
:26:17. > :26:21.constituencies, you would lose 83 MPs if this was repeated in an
:26:22. > :26:28.election. It doesn't get worse than that, does it? Yesterday I went
:26:29. > :26:33.through that Paul in great detail, and what it shows is that in a
:26:34. > :26:39.number of key seats we are ahead, and somewhere behind, and I think is
:26:40. > :26:43.Michael rightly shows... You are behind in most of them. This is a
:26:44. > :26:48.snapshot and we have a year in which the economy is going to be
:26:49. > :26:53.improving, and we have a year to say to those candidates that are
:26:54. > :26:56.fighting those key seats, look, just around the corner people are ahead
:26:57. > :27:05.in the same kind of seat as you and we need to redouble our efforts. The
:27:06. > :27:08.Tory brand is dying in major parts of the country, you are the walking
:27:09. > :27:13.dead in Scotland, and now London, huge chunks of London are becoming a
:27:14. > :27:23.no-go zone for you. That's not true with regard to the northern seats.
:27:24. > :27:29.Tell me what seats you have? In terms of councillors we are the
:27:30. > :27:33.largest party in local government. After four years in power... You are
:27:34. > :27:39.smiling but no political party has ever done that. You haven't got a
:27:40. > :27:46.single councillor in the great city of Manchester. We have councillors
:27:47. > :27:52.in Bradford and Leeds, we have more... You haven't got an MP in any
:27:53. > :27:56.of the big cities? We have more councillors in the north of England
:27:57. > :28:00.than Labour. A quarter of those who say they would vote UKIP and did
:28:01. > :28:05.vote UKIP supported the Tories at the last election. Why are so many
:28:06. > :28:10.of your 2010 voters now so disillusioned? Any election will
:28:11. > :28:16.bring a degree of churning, and we hope to get as many back as we can,
:28:17. > :28:21.but we also want to get Liberal Democrats, people who voted for the
:28:22. > :28:26.Lib Dems and the Labour Party. If we concentrate on one part of the
:28:27. > :28:31.electorate, then we won't take power and I believe we will because I
:28:32. > :28:36.believe we represent a wide spectrum of opinion in this country and I
:28:37. > :28:40.believe that delivering a long-term economic plan, delivering prosperity
:28:41. > :28:45.into people 's pockets will be felt. On the basis of the local election
:28:46. > :28:50.results, you would not pick up a single Labour seat in the general
:28:51. > :28:57.election. You make the point that it is about local elections. Seats that
:28:58. > :29:04.Labour should have taken from us they didn't, which is important... I
:29:05. > :29:10.am asking what possible Labour seat you would hope to win after the
:29:11. > :29:13.results on Thursday. Local elections are local elections. The national
:29:14. > :29:19.election will have a much bigger turnout, it will be one year from
:29:20. > :29:23.now, we will be able to demonstrate to the population that the trends we
:29:24. > :29:28.are seeing already in terms of the success of our long-term economic
:29:29. > :29:33.plan, they will be feeling that in their pockets. People need to feel
:29:34. > :29:38.secure about their jobs and feel that their children have a future.
:29:39. > :29:42.Maybe so many of your people are defecting to UKIP because on issues
:29:43. > :29:50.that they really care about like mass immigration, you don't keep
:29:51. > :29:56.your promises. We have reduced immigration and the
:29:57. > :30:03.amount of pull factors. Let me give you the figures. You have said a
:30:04. > :30:08.couple of things are not true. You promised to cut net immigration to
:30:09. > :30:16.under 100,000 by 2015, last year it rose by 50,000, 212,000. You have
:30:17. > :30:22.broken your promise. We still intend to reduce the amount from non-EU
:30:23. > :30:26.countries. I want to be clear, I have no problem with people coming
:30:27. > :30:34.here who want to work and pay their national insurance and tax, to help
:30:35. > :30:37.fund the health service. What I have objection to our people coming here
:30:38. > :30:44.to get the additional benefits. You made the promise. It is our
:30:45. > :30:50.intention to deliver it. People defect to UKIP because mainstream
:30:51. > :30:55.politicians to -- like yourself do not give straight answers. Can you
:30:56. > :31:00.be straight, you will not hit your immigration target by the election,
:31:01. > :31:08.correct? We will announce measures that. People factor. Will you hit
:31:09. > :31:14.your target? It is a year from now, it is our intention to move towards
:31:15. > :31:19.the target. Is it your intention, do you say you will hit your target of
:31:20. > :31:26.under 100,000 net migration by the election? We will do our damnedest.
:31:27. > :31:30.But you will not make it. I do not know that to be fact. They also vote
:31:31. > :31:37.UKIP cos they do not trust you and Europe, David Cameron has promised a
:31:38. > :31:42.referendum, he has vowed to resign if he does not deliver one, but
:31:43. > :31:47.still your voters vote for UKIP. There were reasons why people voted
:31:48. > :31:54.for UKIP. A great deal of anger about the political system, about
:31:55. > :32:00.the Metropolitan elite that they see running programmes like this and the
:32:01. > :32:04.political programmes. We need to listen to their concerns and address
:32:05. > :32:12.them. David Cameron has got a better record on delivery. He vetoed a
:32:13. > :32:18.treaty, he stopped us having to bail out the currency. Why are you likely
:32:19. > :32:24.to convert a night in the European elections? If you do come third, it
:32:25. > :32:32.will show they do not trust you on Europe. Next year, we will face a
:32:33. > :32:36.general election, about having money in people's pockets, about who will
:32:37. > :32:43.run the country. David Davis wants to China and get the voters to trust
:32:44. > :32:50.the Tories on the referendum, he was the pledge to be brought forward to
:32:51. > :32:53.2016. He is a clever guy. But if you are going to try to negotiate a
:32:54. > :33:00.better deal to give the population a better choice, you cannot do that in
:33:01. > :33:06.a year, you will require two years. You are an Essex MP, you know about
:33:07. > :33:12.Essex people, it must be depressing that they are now voting for UKIP. I
:33:13. > :33:18.do not have any UKIP in my constituency. I felt bad to see
:33:19. > :33:26.Basildon go down and to see the leader go down. Do you know why that
:33:27. > :33:30.is? The Tory party does not resonate with the Essex people in the way
:33:31. > :33:35.that the Margaret Thatcher party did. That is why you did not get a
:33:36. > :33:43.majority in 2010 and why you will not win in 2015. We need to connect
:33:44. > :33:48.better. They will want to know about their children's future, will they
:33:49. > :33:52.have a job, a good education? When it comes to electing a national
:33:53. > :33:58.government, they do not want to see Ed Miliband in office. They are
:33:59. > :34:02.voting for Nigel Farage. In terms of what government you get, do you want
:34:03. > :34:09.to see David Cameron in number ten or Ed Miliband? Essex will want to
:34:10. > :34:15.see David Cameron. You only got 36% of the vote four years ago, your
:34:16. > :34:20.party, occurs you did not get the Essex people in the same numbers,
:34:21. > :34:28.like John Major or Margaret Thatcher did. You need more than 36% in 2015
:34:29. > :34:34.to win the election. On Thursday, your share was 29%. We were 2%
:34:35. > :34:42.behind Labour. They did not do very well either. A year before, -- a
:34:43. > :34:49.year before the election in 1997, they were on 43%. It is highly
:34:50. > :34:54.deliver the votes. We have a campaign looking at the marginals.
:34:55. > :35:00.We know exactly where we are not doing as well as we should be. I am
:35:01. > :35:04.a big fan of Michael Ashcroft. Do you think he does this to be
:35:05. > :35:10.helpful? He is a great man and a good conservative, I am a good
:35:11. > :35:13.friend of his. I think that his publication was one of the best
:35:14. > :35:21.things that happened to the party. You got 36% of the vote last time,
:35:22. > :35:27.you are down to 29, you need 38 or 39, you would get that if you had a
:35:28. > :35:34.pact with UKIP. There will be no pact. I am a Democrat. It is like a
:35:35. > :35:38.market stall, you should put your policies out there and you should
:35:39. > :35:50.not try to fix the market. Would you stop a local pact? There will be no
:35:51. > :35:53.pact with UKIP. None. It has just gone 11:35am. We say
:35:54. > :36:07.goodbye to Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics
:36:08. > :36:16.in Northern Ireland. It's all over bar the shouting for
:36:17. > :36:20.the council elections anyway. All 462 seats in the 11 new super
:36:21. > :36:23.councils have been declared, while the parties and the pundits continue
:36:24. > :36:29.to pore over their spreadsheets to determine the full implications of
:36:30. > :36:32.Thursday's poll. There were no major shifts, smaller parties and
:36:33. > :36:35.independents have become a bigger part of the picture, the Ulster
:36:36. > :36:44.Unionists made gain, the DUP and SDLP have less to celebrate while
:36:45. > :36:48.Sinn Fein's vote decreased slightly. We'll hear from the five main
:36:49. > :36:50.parties shortly and assess what the results might mean for politics here
:36:51. > :36:54.in the next 12 months with Professor Rick Wilford from Queen's
:36:55. > :36:58.University. Let's have a look at how the parties
:36:59. > :37:01.stand at the end of the counting. The overall picture, as far as first
:37:02. > :37:09.preference votes is concerned, saw Sinn Fein on top with 24% and the
:37:10. > :37:14.DUP with 23%. The Ulster Unionists secured 16% with the SDLP on 13.5%.
:37:15. > :37:21.Alliance polled just under 7% of the vote. The changes from the 2011
:37:22. > :37:25.local government elections show Sinn Fein with a slight drop, the DUP
:37:26. > :37:30.dipping by 4%, the UUP up by nearly 1% and the SDLP down by 1.5%.
:37:31. > :37:34.Looking at the overall seats table we see the DUP on top with 130
:37:35. > :37:47.seats, Sinn Fein with 105, UUP with 88 and the SDLP with 66. Then comes
:37:48. > :37:53.Alliance with 32 seats and Jim Allister's TUV with 13 seats. Rick
:37:54. > :37:59.Wilford has been monitoring the results as they've come in over the
:38:00. > :38:04.weekend and he's with me now. You have been poring over at your
:38:05. > :38:11.spreadsheet. What do you think the big story is? Sinn Fein are ahead in
:38:12. > :38:16.the populist vote by the DUP are ahead in the seat count. That has
:38:17. > :38:21.reproduced the performance at the Assembly election at the Westminster
:38:22. > :38:28.election and the European election, where Sinn Fein has topped the
:38:29. > :38:31.polling. As always, with any election, some parties would have
:38:32. > :38:41.reasons to be cheerful and others will have reasons to be cheered
:38:42. > :38:45.less. There is no growth and there suggests that there has been no
:38:46. > :38:51.doubts from the arrest of Gerry Adams. -- balance. He was talking
:38:52. > :39:00.about the electorate being Hellenized but that has not
:39:01. > :39:05.happened. It might -- galvanised. There could be wary that this could
:39:06. > :39:12.have an effect on the outcome of the European election, where eyes
:39:13. > :39:19.suspect that votes will go to Jim Nicholson to get him over the line.
:39:20. > :39:24.The party that has taken the biggest hit is the SDLP. This is it weakest
:39:25. > :39:32.performance during the post-agreement. Since 1998. The
:39:33. > :39:36.trend for them is downwards. It is Alastair McDonald's first election
:39:37. > :39:46.since the coming leader of the partly -- party. A tide could be
:39:47. > :39:52.turning for the UUP, but they will be cheered by this. They will argue
:39:53. > :39:58.that they have turned a corner. The other parties more or less are
:39:59. > :40:02.stable. It is no great seismic change here. But of course, one of
:40:03. > :40:06.the outcomes is the balance of parties in the councils, and no
:40:07. > :40:13.single party has had an overall majority in any counsel, and that
:40:14. > :40:16.means there will not be a premium on trying to make difficult decisions
:40:17. > :40:21.that they are going to have to make over the next 12 months. We have
:40:22. > :40:26.also seen a lot of smaller parties not doing well. That is very often
:40:27. > :40:29.the case at local government level. We have seen two things that have
:40:30. > :40:44.been striking, for agreeing the counselors, and 13 for the TUV. --
:40:45. > :40:48.for greener counselors. This could cause a bit of a wobble
:40:49. > :40:51.in the DUP because they will be concerned about whether this is the
:40:52. > :40:57.beginning of growth. The PUD has done well as well and they have
:40:58. > :41:03.tripled their vote since the last election. That demonstrates the
:41:04. > :41:08.outcome of very hard work and voter registration, particularly in West
:41:09. > :41:16.Belfast. The Green Party has quadrupled. The other party out like
:41:17. > :41:20.to mention is the Alliance Party. They seemed to weather the storm.
:41:21. > :41:27.They slipped a bit, not much. I think they are through the worst of
:41:28. > :41:35.it. We will see. Thank you very much indeed. We'll hear more from you
:41:36. > :41:38.later. Those were the main themes of the election. Our reporter has been
:41:39. > :41:39.looking back at how the story developed once counting got underway
:41:40. > :42:08.on Friday morning. Elections throw up drama by their
:42:09. > :42:13.very nature. It is always a story of who are the winners and two are the
:42:14. > :42:17.losers, but this campaign was all the more remarkable for producing a
:42:18. > :42:22.shock even before the balance were counted. The -- balance. A story was
:42:23. > :42:28.provided that no-one predicted. Hours before polling day, one party
:42:29. > :42:32.was torn apart in a row about we designation and allegations of
:42:33. > :42:38.improper behaviour by the leader, which he denies. Of the parties 47
:42:39. > :42:48.candidates, on the one was a successful. The transfer the -- only
:42:49. > :42:52.one. The transfer put me ahead of the DUP and made sure about my seat
:42:53. > :42:58.and counsel which I am grateful for. The Ulster Unionist vote has gone up
:42:59. > :43:03.and they have won seats with new candidates. It was also good for the
:43:04. > :43:10.TUV party. But within the Unionist party, it is clear all is not well.
:43:11. > :43:16.He never attacked Sinn Fein. He never attacked the SDLP. You are
:43:17. > :43:26.absolutely pathetic. The only person you have attacked... I am not in bed
:43:27. > :43:30.with Sinn Fein. A lack of harmony is not confined to unionism. Between
:43:31. > :43:36.Sinn Fein and the SDLP, the issue of votes transfer is in this election
:43:37. > :43:41.has caused tension. Why did you not encourage your voters to give
:43:42. > :43:45.preferences to the SDLP, and other pro-agreement party? You were asked
:43:46. > :43:50.that several times and you never answered. You never said, yes, that
:43:51. > :43:54.is what people should do. I do not have any confidence in the SDLP. It
:43:55. > :44:00.is absolutely outrageous that he would say that. We know anecdotally
:44:01. > :44:07.on the grounds that Sinn Fein people have been saying, do not vote for
:44:08. > :44:12.Alex Atwood, just vote for Martina Anderson. In Belfast, there was much
:44:13. > :44:17.focus on how the Alliance Party would fare after the plaque -- flag
:44:18. > :44:23.protests. A much talked about voter backlash never materialised. It is
:44:24. > :44:27.very clear that despite the fact that a meltdown was predicted it did
:44:28. > :44:30.not come. The people of Belfast know that we have served them properly
:44:31. > :44:34.and with respect and dignity and they have shown that in the polling
:44:35. > :44:38.today. The smaller parties will have a voice and a new councils,
:44:39. > :44:47.including UKIP, the Green Party and the PEP. In Derry where the SDLP had
:44:48. > :44:51.problems, this man topped the poll in his area. I believe I got my
:44:52. > :44:55.votes from a broad spectrum of people, particularly those who are
:44:56. > :45:00.dissatisfied with the political parties and believe that they are
:45:01. > :45:04.not represented their best interests. This has been about the
:45:05. > :45:08.most dramatic change in local government for 40 years. Now we know
:45:09. > :45:12.who controls our 11 new councils. They have new powers in key
:45:13. > :45:14.decisions to make on planning, services and budgets. The elections
:45:15. > :45:31.are over, but many battles lie ahead.
:45:32. > :45:34.With me in the studio are the Ulster Unionist leader, Mike Nesbitt, the
:45:35. > :45:36.deputy leader of the Alliance Party, Naomi Long, the SDLP leader,
:45:37. > :45:40.Alasdair McDonnell, Niall Donnghaile from Sinn Fein, and from our Foyle
:45:41. > :45:45.studio we're joined by the DUP's Gregory Campbell. Thank you all.
:45:46. > :45:47.Mike Nesbitt, your colleague Danny Kennedy concluded yesterday with a
:45:48. > :45:50.claim that you had won this election. Nobody denies you've done
:45:51. > :45:54.better than many people thought you would, but you what you've managed
:45:55. > :45:57.to do is to stop the rot. We have started the revival. I said that
:45:58. > :45:59.when I've put myself up for leadership I would offer to leave
:46:00. > :46:05.the party through to electoral cycle. This is a cycle one. We have
:46:06. > :46:10.achieved three things. We are stable for the first time in living
:46:11. > :46:15.memory, we have two build departure lines to build that, but we are
:46:16. > :46:19.stable. We have taken the off this narrative that we are in terminal
:46:20. > :46:24.decline. Thirdly, we wanted to growth, and if you look at votes
:46:25. > :46:30.cast, percentage votes and seats one, we have started to grow, and as
:46:31. > :46:43.Eisai, that is phase one of cycle one and it will be a long process.
:46:44. > :46:47.-- and as I've say. You can put it in a certain context if you are
:46:48. > :46:52.begrudging. You have done better than many people thought you would
:46:53. > :46:57.do. I am just pointing out the facts. By inputting it into context
:46:58. > :47:01.and trying to understand what has been achieved. -- I am putting it
:47:02. > :47:05.into context. Ulster Unionists will be looking at the scoreboard in the
:47:06. > :47:09.newspapers and they will be motivated and we are on a journey
:47:10. > :47:12.and it is an upward journey and a positive journey.
:47:13. > :47:14.Gregory Campbell, Sammy Wilson described the result as
:47:15. > :47:17.disappointing in places blaming Jim Allister's European candidate
:47:18. > :47:36.profile and the switch to the right of the UUP. Agree? I think that is a
:47:37. > :47:43.reasonably accurate assessment. The European election nationally was
:47:44. > :47:48.dominated by UKIP and the anti-European feeling, which we are
:47:49. > :47:53.a part of, and of course, Jeb Allister entering the phrase as well
:47:54. > :47:58.as the smaller parties, and that resulted in what we have described
:47:59. > :48:02.as a shredding of the Unionist vote. That is bad enough in a public
:48:03. > :48:06.relations election, but some people were saying, as long as people
:48:07. > :48:11.transfer, that does not result in shredding, but you never get the
:48:12. > :48:15.position where 100% of voters going out to vote for a smaller candidate
:48:16. > :48:19.alternates for themselves, and we saw evidence of that yesterday, they
:48:20. > :48:25.do not transfer to other parties, so there is a degree of shredding no
:48:26. > :48:29.matter what people say. We have to look at the analysis over the next
:48:30. > :48:32.few weeks, look at areas where there might have been too many
:48:33. > :48:36.candidates. Our vote was excellent and in many areas it was
:48:37. > :48:43.tremendous. We started at a very high plateau to retain that was very
:48:44. > :48:50.good. We had a slight rock. I think -- I think that the one thing Mike
:48:51. > :49:00.doesn't want to do is become known as 0.1% Nesbitt. He is seeing the
:49:01. > :49:04.funny side of that. You are ahead in terms of seats, with 130, but a lot
:49:05. > :49:09.of people predicted you should have coming closer to 140, and her party
:49:10. > :49:13.leader said you could have won a few more seats, but in terms of the
:49:14. > :49:19.popular vote, you are 6000 behind Shin pain. We are the biggest party
:49:20. > :49:24.-- Sinn Fein. We are the biggest party and we have more seats than
:49:25. > :49:30.anyone else. Not the terms of the popular vote. It dispels any notion
:49:31. > :49:35.of complacency. I have always argued for this. We always need to say, as
:49:36. > :49:40.soon as the election is over, you know cool down and prepare for the
:49:41. > :49:44.next one and see where you can put fewer candidates and get a bigger
:49:45. > :49:51.vote in various areas, and there are numbers of areas where we can learn
:49:52. > :49:55.lessons. We held up tremendously given that we are at a high plateau.
:49:56. > :49:59.We always have to remember the relative aspect of the response this
:50:00. > :50:05.time compared to the previous election and the key is to build on
:50:06. > :50:12.this for the next election. A bit disappointing as far as the
:50:13. > :50:19.Sinn Fein was concerned? It could have been a nightmare, but it proved
:50:20. > :50:24.difficult for us, and people wanted to continue to have a Sinn Fein
:50:25. > :50:28.voice in a part of the city that has seen some purging negative
:50:29. > :50:32.leadership in the last couple of years. -- pretty negative. It was a
:50:33. > :50:39.good result for the party in Belfast. The arrest of Gerry Adams,
:50:40. > :50:43.some of the people in the party thought that would galvanize the
:50:44. > :50:49.support for Sinn Fein. We will see how that goes. We look at the party
:50:50. > :51:04.and we look to see how we do overall, and Sinn Fein has bounced
:51:05. > :51:07.and are doing very well. It was disappointing that you did
:51:08. > :51:11.not get the seats that many people thought you would get based on your
:51:12. > :51:16.performance last time. I think it is a bit harsh to say that it is
:51:17. > :51:19.disappointing. We are the third largest party in Belfast city
:51:20. > :51:24.Council. A wipe-out was being predicted, so the fact that we held
:51:25. > :51:27.our ground in a very testing 18 months for the Alliance Party as
:51:28. > :51:33.actually good for the party. There are places where, due to boundary
:51:34. > :51:37.changes, we did not convert those votes into seats, and that is a
:51:38. > :51:47.change -- shame, even in Belfast where we were ahead in the popular
:51:48. > :51:51.votes. That is always unfortunate. I am very pleased in terms of the
:51:52. > :51:57.performance of the party, not just in Belfast, but also in other
:51:58. > :52:00.places, where we have two counselors elected in two different councils,
:52:01. > :52:06.which is a real step forward to us and gives us the ability to build.
:52:07. > :52:10.Think there is opportunity there for Alliance. Not what we would have
:52:11. > :52:17.liked at the high water mark but we managed not to be wiped out as
:52:18. > :52:27.everybody protected. I am sure you heard part -- talk about it if you
:52:28. > :52:33.did not, there was talk of being on notice in East Belfast. There is
:52:34. > :52:37.talk that you cannot hold onto the seat. Peter Robinson is never
:52:38. > :52:42.someone who has been accused of grace under pressure. When I was
:52:43. > :52:46.elected in 2003, he predicted that the Alliance Party was finished and
:52:47. > :52:51.we would have to scrape the barrel to find a candidate and I think he
:52:52. > :52:55.took that the -- and I think he was wrong. I proved we did not have to
:52:56. > :53:00.scrape the bottom of the barrel. He has not done the sums very well. He
:53:01. > :53:07.did not say the DUP would take the seat. The person he was going to be
:53:08. > :53:10.my successor was pleading with other unionists including those who have
:53:11. > :53:15.beaten him up physically and metaphorically, begging them to form
:53:16. > :53:20.a pact, because they are in a firefight. They could not beat me. I
:53:21. > :53:27.would simply caution them. They tried that against a predecessor. We
:53:28. > :53:33.might come onto that issue a bit later. You would have heard and not
:53:34. > :53:39.like the comments from the professor 's saying this is not an auspicious
:53:40. > :53:43.start to your leadership of the SDLP and the downward trend continues as
:53:44. > :53:47.far as her party is concerned. I am very pleased with the outcome of the
:53:48. > :53:52.election as far as the SDLP is concerned. I set out to renew the
:53:53. > :53:57.party and rebuild the party and I am very happy and I want to thank the
:53:58. > :54:03.candidates for the success that we have had. We have 66 council seats.
:54:04. > :54:08.The pendants were predicting 66 or 67. -- dependence.
:54:09. > :54:22.We have mustered up the level that I anticipated and we now have 40%
:54:23. > :54:30.women are preventing us. 26 out of 66. When you look at the graph.
:54:31. > :54:37.2005... You asked me a question and I am trying to answer it. 40% of our
:54:38. > :54:41.counselors are new as well. -- candidates. Some of them are
:54:42. > :54:45.younger. The party is renewing. This has been the greatest change in the
:54:46. > :54:51.SDLP in its existence and it is working, and the fact that we might
:54:52. > :54:54.have slipped up and others have made mistakes is not all that relevant in
:54:55. > :54:58.the overall plan of things, because we were build on what we have got
:54:59. > :55:03.here and we will go forwards and the people that we have brought in, so
:55:04. > :55:10.many of them are capable of being Assembly candidates. I am delighted
:55:11. > :55:14.with them. They may not be in big the -- as big a number as they have
:55:15. > :55:19.been in the past. The local government in 2005 you had 17%, and
:55:20. > :55:25.then in the last election you had 50% and that is now 13.5%. There is
:55:26. > :55:32.a clear downward trend. Mike Nesbitt is delighted about that. Quite
:55:33. > :55:41.simply, everyone has a downward trend. Sorry, Mike Nesbitt has
:55:42. > :55:47.picked up 0.9%. Fine. That is not a downward trend. I think the Green
:55:48. > :55:52.Party is up and the TUV is up. All the other major parties are under
:55:53. > :55:57.pressure except for the Ulster Unionist party. We have the
:55:58. > :56:01.potential to build and buy them in the process of rebuilding. It is not
:56:02. > :56:06.going to happen overnight. When I got elected I said it would take
:56:07. > :56:09.four or five years. The SDLP is more concerned about what they can
:56:10. > :56:15.produce and what they can deliver going forward than the numbers. The
:56:16. > :56:21.biggest party does not always deliver the best results. How does
:56:22. > :56:31.point the -- how the 0.9% Mike Nesbitt sound? Our target was 78, we
:56:32. > :56:35.got 88. Gregory should be lucky and thankful we only got 0.9% swing,
:56:36. > :56:40.because if we have got more than that, we would be wiping the DUP
:56:41. > :56:47.out. You took a little nibble out around the age. The -- around the
:56:48. > :56:53.edge. My good colleague who got elected for the last time received a
:56:54. > :56:57.tweet today saying that he could not annoy -- saying that you could not
:56:58. > :57:03.annoying us today. That is just step one. What happens now is the mark
:57:04. > :57:09.let's talk about PACs and the broader Unionist position. The --
:57:10. > :57:14.what happens now? It has to be on your radar at this stage. The only
:57:15. > :57:25.thing on the radar at this stage Army is tomorrow. Then we will look
:57:26. > :57:29.at it. The -- at this stage before me. It is important to get Jim
:57:30. > :57:33.across the line and then analyse the results. If you look at the results
:57:34. > :57:39.he got in Belfast, you will realise that Peter Robinson was talking
:57:40. > :57:44.nonsense yesterday. He got the big results in East Belfast? Jim Rogers
:57:45. > :57:51.and Sonia Copeland, two Ulster Unionists. If there is going to be a
:57:52. > :57:55.United candidate it is going to be in Ulster Unionists. Peter Robinson
:57:56. > :58:04.is not going to win the seat back next year. He has made it clear he
:58:05. > :58:09.is not going to stand again. The DUP lusted for unionism (and they are
:58:10. > :58:15.not going to win it back -- got lost it for unionism last time and they
:58:16. > :58:20.are not going to win it back. You cannot pretend you are not thinking
:58:21. > :58:23.about issues like PACs in East Belfast and maybe Fermanagh. Of
:58:24. > :58:30.course you are. You think I can't sit here and deny that? You just
:58:31. > :58:36.indicated it was in your mind. You made an opening page! I have not.
:58:37. > :58:42.I'd just stated the facts that there will be a full analysis. Did that
:58:43. > :58:51.sound like a pitch for an Ulster Unionists agreed candidate to you? I
:58:52. > :59:02.think 0.9% Nesbitt needs to go back. You are minus .04% if you want to
:59:03. > :59:06.play that game. Looking at people trying to turn a minus into a plus,
:59:07. > :59:11.I am not going to do that, but let's look at this, Naomi's totally
:59:12. > :59:15.disgraceful comments right now, they indicate where the pressure is
:59:16. > :59:21.coming towards Naomi. If we look at the overall the gears, you can talk
:59:22. > :59:26.about single candidates topping the poll -- overall figures. Would you
:59:27. > :59:32.have to do is look at the number of votes for each party in east Belfast
:59:33. > :59:38.and you do not come out with Alliance Party being top, that is
:59:39. > :59:40.absolutely crystal clear, and what she said about Gavin Robinson was
:59:41. > :59:49.disgraceful and incorrect, and I think she should with draw it
:59:50. > :59:52.unequivocally. I'm sorry, I was at his acceptance speech in City Hall
:59:53. > :59:58.last night when he made his opening pitch and pleaded with the other
:59:59. > :00:02.Unionists to side with the DUP. That was very clear. I was in the room
:00:03. > :00:08.and I've heard that. It was begging. More importantly... Let's hear what
:00:09. > :00:13.she has to say. I wonder what the people of East Belfast make of it
:00:14. > :00:17.this morning, because with absolute disregard for their vote. When I was
:00:18. > :00:22.elected, Peter Robinson said that I had borrowed the seat, ignoring the
:00:23. > :00:26.popular mandate that I had received from the electorate. Now we have to
:00:27. > :00:30.Unionist parties bickering over which of them will tell the people
:00:31. > :00:35.of East doth asked who to elect. I have more confidence in the people
:00:36. > :00:40.of East Belfast. The -- East Belfast who to elect. I will work the seat
:00:41. > :00:45.as they have over the last four years over the next year, and I
:00:46. > :00:48.believe that I will leave it in the hands of the people of East Belfast,
:00:49. > :00:53.but when it comes to a fair fight, Ivy League Alliance is as likely to
:00:54. > :00:57.the -- as anyone else the -- I believe Alliance is as likely as
:00:58. > :01:01.anyone else to take the seat. You are not the latest party in East
:01:02. > :01:07.Belfast. Through this discussion on. You are a counsellor to one of the
:01:08. > :01:12.new super councils. How difficult is it going to be on the ground for
:01:13. > :01:15.these new councils to actually make important decisions on important
:01:16. > :01:22.issues? You are going to have more responsibilities than you had in the
:01:23. > :01:25.past and there is quite a bit of fragmentation. There now is greater
:01:26. > :01:30.representation for the TUV, for UKIP, the Green Party, and your
:01:31. > :01:35.party leader yesterday, on our coverage, told me he had no
:01:36. > :01:38.confidence whatsoever in the SDLP, so you can't even get on with your
:01:39. > :01:43.fellow nationalists. I want to bring it back to the last point. As a
:01:44. > :01:50.voter in East golf asked, we have a current MP the -- East Belfast, and
:01:51. > :01:58.we have a current MP and he is being attacked. The gallery is being
:01:59. > :02:01.played to. I don't think Peter Robinson or Gavin Robinson or anyone
:02:02. > :02:08.else has done that and they think they should. With the greatest of
:02:09. > :02:13.respect, they are not here to defend themselves. They have been clear
:02:14. > :02:23.that have condemned... Totally and unequivocally. Why can't the DUP
:02:24. > :02:29.stand on the same road with Tammy Long questionnaire it is a pity for
:02:30. > :02:35.the people across the -- with Naomi Long? It is a pity for the people of
:02:36. > :02:38.East Belfast. They might have had reasons not to go but they made
:02:39. > :02:43.clear their condemnation. Maybe you had reasons to go but not the -- but
:02:44. > :02:49.let's not go down that road. I don't think the First Minister would say
:02:50. > :02:55.that he didn't... In terms of the councils... Exactly. Let's deal with
:02:56. > :02:58.the issue of the councils. I think even without the formation of the
:02:59. > :03:02.super councils, Belfast city Council, despite the ad press in
:03:03. > :03:08.recent times, have proven what we can deliver. The -- bad press. We
:03:09. > :03:12.have delivered an investment plan that is making an impact across the
:03:13. > :03:16.city and we have delivered 200 additional jobs across the city
:03:17. > :03:19.Council. In many ways, the new counsel will relish the opportunity
:03:20. > :03:23.and we will have to take some time to find our feet. I think the
:03:24. > :03:27.parties have proven we can work together and I think it will make
:03:28. > :03:33.for an interesting counsel. Under that management was not great in
:03:34. > :03:36.certain places. We have a people before profit counsellor in West
:03:37. > :03:40.Belfast at the expense of a Sinn Fein counsellor, an independent
:03:41. > :03:44.Republican who is an arch critic of a Sinn Fein president political and
:03:45. > :03:52.peace progress. Did you get it wrong? In Belfast, it is no mean
:03:53. > :03:58.feat to get the counsellor 's election -- elected anyway that we
:03:59. > :04:01.did. In Gary, you are talking about someone who is opposed to the
:04:02. > :04:07.political and peace strategy, and along time we have been the -- and
:04:08. > :04:10.for a long time we have been encouraging them. You have been
:04:11. > :04:15.encouraging them in not getting elected. Gary has a mandate. You
:04:16. > :04:20.have been saying that these people represent no-one and don't have a
:04:21. > :04:23.mandate. I will say this, we have been saying this to the media quite
:04:24. > :04:33.sick the -- consistently, the next time there is an incident like this,
:04:34. > :04:37.maybe a microphone could be but into these purposes it is as opposed to
:04:38. > :04:42.Sinn Fein. How do you think these new councils are going to work? How
:04:43. > :04:46.much cooperation will there be on the ground between Sinn Fein and the
:04:47. > :04:54.STL P, whenever Gerry Adams is a -- said what he did yesterday. Your
:04:55. > :05:01.colleague was incensed by that. I think it is time to move on into the
:05:02. > :05:06.future. A lot of people in Sinn Fein do not have much confidence in Gerry
:05:07. > :05:11.Adams, to be quite blunt, but that is a matter for them to sort out. He
:05:12. > :05:17.fled West Belfast and had not done very much for 20 years. He fled, did
:05:18. > :05:22.the chicken run on that when he found out that he was being run out
:05:23. > :05:28.of West Belfast. The point is this, the point is that we have to go
:05:29. > :05:32.forward from here. These new councils, we have to put forward a
:05:33. > :05:40.partnership, and there have to be partnerships at all levels, and
:05:41. > :05:44.those partnerships should not be thought of that they should be
:05:45. > :05:49.partnerships for the benefit of people. The -- should not be... They
:05:50. > :05:53.should be for the partnerships for the benefit of people. People are
:05:54. > :05:57.looking for a bit more social justice, they are looking for
:05:58. > :06:02.prosperity, and none of those things have fully emerged yet. The councils
:06:03. > :06:05.have a major problem. They are not as important as Stormont. The
:06:06. > :06:11.councils have an opportunity to facilitate a lot of development and
:06:12. > :06:14.a lot of the quality of life at local level, and we all have an
:06:15. > :06:19.obligation around this table and Gregory as well, we all have an
:06:20. > :06:24.obligation to deliver for the people there. It is about the product that
:06:25. > :06:28.we put out, not ourselves. Is that going to happen on the ground? Will
:06:29. > :06:35.that work? Will these new councils deal with these issues, or are
:06:36. > :06:40.Unionists going to go in there and make a big issue of flying the Union
:06:41. > :06:48.flag and talking about locking mechanisms? The constitutional
:06:49. > :06:51.issues... What we should be focusing on his education, the economy,
:06:52. > :06:54.health and housing, the things that affect people when they wake up in
:06:55. > :06:59.the morning and frustrate them when they go to bed at night. We have to
:07:00. > :07:03.cooperate not just with unionists, but with the SDLP, Sinn Fein,
:07:04. > :07:08.Alliance, we have to deliver for other people. You are happy with the
:07:09. > :07:13.constitutional position and that it is settled, and that the flying as
:07:14. > :07:18.the -- flag is flying a properly, you are OK with that, but if it is
:07:19. > :07:22.not, you get vexed. Some people get it set about it and some are more
:07:23. > :07:30.lax 's get upset about it and some are more relaxed. It is important --
:07:31. > :07:34.upset about it and some are of about your happy with designated days to
:07:35. > :07:38.stop I have talked about designated plus, a number of days rate is
:07:39. > :07:50.appropriate when you can... I am not here today to talk about
:07:51. > :07:55.the flag. And here to deliver. We have taken our candidates and we
:07:56. > :07:58.have been offering them advice on planning powers, which is the
:07:59. > :08:03.biggest single new power, economic development, we are going to
:08:04. > :08:07.continue to work with experts to power up our counselors. I
:08:08. > :08:10.understand that. Gregory, are you going to take a relaxed attitude to
:08:11. > :08:15.the flying of flags in these new councils? I do not think I agree
:08:16. > :08:19.with him and I do not think he should get obsessed with the flag.
:08:20. > :08:23.In the capital city, the flag should fly every day of the year, and that
:08:24. > :08:28.all of the other councils, the flag should fly as many days as possible.
:08:29. > :08:35.This is what happens in the rest of the UK. But let's not concentrate on
:08:36. > :08:42.flags. Will that not be an issue for the DB best record DUP? -- for the
:08:43. > :08:48.time two? Are you saying you will be moderation all around? We tend to go
:08:49. > :08:57.for the maximum output for unionism, and that is what we will do. Let's
:08:58. > :09:01.get back... Our position has been to utterly condemn violence and we
:09:02. > :09:04.don't take lessons from Sinn Fein and became more strongly condemn
:09:05. > :09:08.Sinn Fein for their past record. Naomi, I want to give you the final
:09:09. > :09:13.words on the flag issue. Are you hopeful that that is going to be
:09:14. > :09:19.dealt with quickly and easily, or could it be, the book that these new
:09:20. > :09:22.councils get caught on? I hope it does not, and that is why in the
:09:23. > :09:25.house process and the local government reform bill in the
:09:26. > :09:29.Assembly we try to resolve that issue so it would not become a
:09:30. > :09:33.sticking block in all of the councils. What the flag issue has
:09:34. > :09:37.done, and I've think both parties need to think about this, it has
:09:38. > :09:43.breathed new life into the pan two, and that is not good for the Ulster
:09:44. > :09:48.Unionists. The -- the DUP. Thank you for your contributions.
:09:49. > :09:51.There's no question that politics, and the election in particular,
:09:52. > :09:55.dominated the past week, and while some people might look on from the
:09:56. > :09:58.sidelines with cynics' eyes, for those involved in putting their
:09:59. > :10:00.names on the ballot papers it can be an emotional time, as this look back
:10:01. > :11:28.demonstrates very well. A final word from Rick Wilford.
:11:29. > :11:34.Let's talk briefly about whether or not some prounion approach to pack
:11:35. > :11:39.making is likely to be on the agenda. I think the door is open at
:11:40. > :11:43.this stage in I suspect probably in the wake of the results tomorrow at
:11:44. > :11:50.the European election, I think there will be some... The Westminster
:11:51. > :11:55.election is going to be a real bear pit. I'd expect they will do the
:11:56. > :12:02.same in South Belfast. The door is ajar. Every politician you talk to
:12:03. > :12:09.seems to be for the happy about how things went. There have been no
:12:10. > :12:12.catastrophes. A small earthquake in Chile, that is the way someone could
:12:13. > :12:22.sum it up. There are winners and losers. The important thing is a
:12:23. > :12:28.tone of the new local councils, the super councils. If it takes from
:12:29. > :12:32.what is going on at the top, as dictating the tone, you get this
:12:33. > :12:41.trickle down politics, which is very sour, bitter, and I think that is
:12:42. > :12:45.not going to fix the smooth take-off and transition. If, on the other
:12:46. > :12:48.hand, there is a determination among the parties to work in a bottom-up
:12:49. > :12:55.way and trying to engage in politics, then maybe... As my
:12:56. > :13:01.grandfather used to say, we live in hope and die in despair. What can we
:13:02. > :13:09.expect from the results tomorrow? Same and three. I've think Alex
:13:10. > :13:14.Atwood will lose out. Acting table of votes will go to the -- I think
:13:15. > :13:22.many of its will go to Jim Nicholson.
:13:23. > :13:25.That's it for now. Join me tomorrow for all the latest on the European
:13:26. > :13:27.election count from the King's Hall from 2:15pm on BBC Two. Until then,
:13:28. > :14:06.from everyone in the team, goodbye. Voting has taken place
:14:07. > :14:09.in the European Parliament election and BBC News NI will bring you the
:14:10. > :14:14.results live from the count centre. With reaction, expert analysis
:14:15. > :14:18.and a chance to have your say,