:00:34. > :00:40.Up to a million public sector workers will strike this week.
:00:41. > :00:43.It's one of the biggest walk-outs since 2010.
:00:44. > :00:51.The country's top trade unionist Frances O'Grady and
:00:52. > :00:54.The Tour de France seems to have cheered him up - just as well
:00:55. > :00:58.for the Deputy Prime Minister hasn't got much else to smile about.
:00:59. > :01:00.Nick Clegg joins me live from Sheffield to discuss the
:01:01. > :01:07.Just over ten weeks until Scotland determines its future.
:01:08. > :01:10.The man leading the campaign AGAINST independence, Alistair Darling,
:01:11. > :01:26.The executive business offer as a result of Unionist action. I will be
:01:27. > :01:30.discussing that with Danny Kennedy and Stephen very.
:01:31. > :01:36.journalists always ahead of the peleton - Nick Watt,
:01:37. > :01:51.They'll be tweeting faster than Tour de France cyclists can pedal.
:01:52. > :01:53.The news is dominated this morning by stories swirling
:01:54. > :01:56.around allegations of an historic Westminster paedophile ring.
:01:57. > :01:59.Concern has grown because of the disappearance of a dossier
:02:00. > :02:01.handed over to the Home Office in 1983, along with over 100 official
:02:02. > :02:03.files related to it and possibly containing details of historic child
:02:04. > :02:09.Labour is calling for a public inquiry led by a child protection
:02:10. > :02:14.But speaking earlier on The Andrew Marr Show this morning
:02:15. > :02:19.the Education Secretary Michael Gove ruled that out.
:02:20. > :02:25.The most important thing that we need to do is ensure that the due
:02:26. > :02:29.process of law pursues those who may be guilty of individual crimes and
:02:30. > :02:33.we also learn lessons about what may or may not have gone wrong in the
:02:34. > :02:36.past, but it is also important to emphasise that many of the
:02:37. > :02:41.allegations that are being made are historic. And what we do now in
:02:42. > :02:45.order to keep children safer is better and stronger than was the
:02:46. > :02:49.case when 20 or 30 years ago. Without getting into a boring
:02:50. > :02:54.tit-for-tat, public inquiry, "yes" or "no"? No. Helen, can the
:02:55. > :02:59.Government go on resisting calls for a full-scale inquiry? It is very
:03:00. > :03:02.hard. There are cynical and non-cynical reasons for calling for
:03:03. > :03:06.an inquiry. The cynical one allows you to say I can't comment on this.
:03:07. > :03:11.The non-cynical is it manages to get people to air allegations in a way
:03:12. > :03:15.that is safe. What we saw at the Leveson Inquiry was helpful, people
:03:16. > :03:19.who felt they had been shut out from justice getting a chance to tell
:03:20. > :03:22.their side of the story. A public inquiry in this case is a good idea.
:03:23. > :03:27.Labour have called for a lot of public inquiries. A list was made in
:03:28. > :03:33.2012 of how many they called for. Not only Savile, but the West Coast
:03:34. > :03:36.Main Line and breast implants. On this particular issue, the people
:03:37. > :03:39.don't trust the politicians, they don't trust the police either
:03:40. > :03:45.because they may have been complicit in a cover-up. They may not trust
:03:46. > :03:49.the Home Office who we are told some of their officials were mentioned in
:03:50. > :03:53.the dossier? That is what David Cameron is hanging on to. This is a
:03:54. > :03:56.matter now because they are alleged criminal activity, it is for the
:03:57. > :04:02.police to investigate. In that big piece in the Sunday Times, Tim
:04:03. > :04:03.Shipman reports one of the people making the allegations lives in the
:04:04. > :04:06.United States making the allegations lives in the
:04:07. > :04:08.been out to the United States to interview him. The Prime Minister
:04:09. > :04:09.would say that is how serious the police are taking it. The problem
:04:10. > :04:16.for the Prime Minister - he police are taking it. The problem
:04:17. > :04:20.allergic to big public inquiry. His finest moment was his response to
:04:21. > :04:20.the Bloody Sunday inquiry shortly after he became Prime
:04:21. > :04:34.inrequest -- that inquiry took 12 years to report. The problem is the
:04:35. > :04:40.dossier has gone missing, the files have gone missing, more allegations
:04:41. > :04:42.keep coming out either directly or indirectly. It doesn't look like it
:04:43. > :04:50.is going to go away? The fact the dossiers are missing means it is
:04:51. > :04:54.inappropriate for the Home Office to be investigating this. There is
:04:55. > :04:54.inappropriate for the Home Office to a police investigation. If after
:04:55. > :05:01.that, there are questions unanswered which can only be answered by
:05:02. > :05:02.that, there are questions unanswered public inquiry, or which require
:05:03. > :05:05.resources that can only be commanded by a public inquiry, I could see the
:05:06. > :05:11.case for going down that road. I fear that sometimes in this country
:05:12. > :05:15.we invest almost supernatural powers in what a public inquiry can do. I
:05:16. > :05:19.wonder whether there is another example of a country that goes
:05:20. > :05:23.through this stale ritual every few years of a scandal emerging, the
:05:24. > :05:26.opposition calling for an inquiry, the Government saying no and then
:05:27. > :05:30.holding the line or giving in. I don't know what we think this
:05:31. > :05:35.inquiries can do. It comes back to your point, Helen, you should be
:05:36. > :05:41.careful what you call an inquiry on so it doesn't devalue the concept.
:05:42. > :05:43.On Thursday up to a million public sector workers - including teachers,
:05:44. > :05:45.firemen and council workers - will go on strike.
:05:46. > :05:48.Their unions have differing gripes but the fact they're all striking
:05:49. > :05:50.on the same day is designed to send a strong message to the government.
:05:51. > :05:52.As the economy picks up again they're demanding an end
:05:53. > :05:58.Growth has returned strongly to the UK economy
:05:59. > :06:02.and unemployment is at its lowest level for more than five years.
:06:03. > :06:04.So why is there still talk of austerity
:06:05. > :06:09.The deficit is coming down but much more slowly than the government
:06:10. > :06:16.And accumulated deficits - the national debt -
:06:17. > :06:25.The UK is now in hock to the tune of ?1.3 trillion - and rising.
:06:26. > :06:28.In fact, we're only 40% of the way through George Osborne's planned
:06:29. > :06:31.austerity, with the chancellor now saying he won't manage to balance
:06:32. > :06:37.Unions are now rebelling against tight pay controls.
:06:38. > :06:41.Since 2010, average public sector pay, which goes to about 1 in 5
:06:42. > :06:48.Over the same period, prices increased by 16% -
:06:49. > :06:52.meaning the average public sector worker saw their pay squeezed
:06:53. > :07:00.Going head-to-head on the public sector strikes and austerity -
:07:01. > :07:03.the general secretary of the TUC Frances O'Grady, and Conservative
:07:04. > :07:22.We have seen it, public sector pay squeezed by 9% under the Coalition
:07:23. > :07:28.Government. Isn't it time to take your foot off the brake a bit? I
:07:29. > :07:33.don't think it is the right time to let go of the public finances at
:07:34. > :07:37.all. We were always clear that this is what's called a structural
:07:38. > :07:42.deficit, it doesn't go away just because the growth is returning and
:07:43. > :07:46.the economy is coming back. We have protected and are protecting the
:07:47. > :07:53.lowest paid public sector workers who weren't part of the pay freeze
:07:54. > :07:58.and now pay going up by 1%. These are difficult decisions. We have had
:07:59. > :08:03.that discussion many times. They are necessary in order to keep that plan
:08:04. > :08:06.on track and as we can see in the wider economy, it is working.
:08:07. > :08:11.People's living standards will have to continue to fall if you are in
:08:12. > :08:15.the public sector? We need to keep public spending under control and
:08:16. > :08:19.pay restraint is one of the main ways of being able... The answer is
:08:20. > :08:22.yes? The answer is this is necessary. The answer is yes, this
:08:23. > :08:25.is necessary. It isn't because we want to. We have to. This strike
:08:26. > :08:28.isn't going to change the Government's mind, is it? It does
:08:29. > :08:31.seem like the Government isn't listening. We have had years... They
:08:32. > :08:36.are listening, they just don't agree. Ordinary people, including
:08:37. > :08:38.those in the public sector, are finding it really tough. What really
:08:39. > :08:44.sticks in the throat is the idea that money can
:08:45. > :08:44.sticks in the throat is the idea cuts to billionaires, to
:08:45. > :08:47.millionaires and to cuts to billionaires, to
:08:48. > :08:53.corporations. But it can't cuts to billionaires, to
:08:54. > :08:58.to help 500,000 workers in local government, dinner ladies, school
:08:59. > :09:00.meal workers, lollipop men and women who are earning less than the
:09:01. > :09:03.meal workers, lollipop men and women wage. What do you say to that? We
:09:04. > :09:07.have protected those who are the least well-paid in the public
:09:08. > :09:09.sector. But this is about a long-term... How can you? Hold on.
:09:10. > :09:12.You have said you long-term... How can you? Hold on.
:09:13. > :09:15.them. This long-term... How can you? Hold on.
:09:16. > :09:19.many watching this programme, they long-term... How can you? Hold on.
:09:20. > :09:26.have had a 1% pay rise in some cases since 2010. The average gas bill is
:09:27. > :09:32.up 57%, electric bill up 22%, food costs up 16%, running a car 11%, in
:09:33. > :09:37.what way have you protected people from spending they have to make?
:09:38. > :09:41.Firstly, you read out the average increases in public sector pay. That
:09:42. > :09:45.has had the biggest impact at the top end and those at the bottom end
:09:46. > :09:50.have been best protected, as best we could. Of course, we have also taken
:09:51. > :09:53.two million people out of income tax and increased the income tax
:09:54. > :09:57.threshold which has a big positive impact. We have frozen and then cut
:09:58. > :10:02.fuel duty, which would have been 20 pence higher. I wanted to take on
:10:03. > :10:06.this point about priorities. We have got to make sure that we get the
:10:07. > :10:12.economy going at the same time and we raised more money from those at
:10:13. > :10:17.the top than we did before 2010, partly because we have encouraged
:10:18. > :10:22.them to invest. And this is a really important balance of making sure we
:10:23. > :10:26.get the books back in order, we have stability for family finances and we
:10:27. > :10:30.get the economy going. Why not spread the living wage? We know you
:10:31. > :10:34.could pay for that pay increase itself if you spread the living wage
:10:35. > :10:40.through the private sector and guarantee... The living wage being
:10:41. > :10:46.above the minimum wage? Absolutely. ?7.65 in the rest of the country,
:10:47. > :10:55.?8.80 in London. What is the answer? I'm a fan of the minimum wage. But
:10:56. > :11:00.not for public sector workers. Being able to pay low-paid workers as much
:11:01. > :11:02.as possible within the constraints of the public finances is something
:11:03. > :11:07.I have pushed very hard. The evidence we can increase the minimum
:11:08. > :11:13.wage has to be balanced which the Low Pay Commission do with the
:11:14. > :11:19.impact on the number of jobs... Even after a pay freeze for quite a while
:11:20. > :11:27.among public sector workers, they are still paid 15% on average more
:11:28. > :11:33.than those in the private sector? That is not true. It is, according
:11:34. > :11:37.to the ONS figures. I read that report this morning. If you look at
:11:38. > :11:43.the whole package, what they are saying is public service workers are
:11:44. > :11:51.worse off. Average earnings in the public sector are ?16.28 an hour
:11:52. > :11:55.compared to ?14.16 private. You are comparing apples and pears. It's the
:11:56. > :11:58.kind of jobs and the size of the workplace that people work in. They
:11:59. > :12:05.are still overall on average better off? Lower paid workers tend to be
:12:06. > :12:14.better off because unions negotiate better deals for lower paid workers.
:12:15. > :12:18.They are more unionised in the pry private sector. The public sector is
:12:19. > :12:22.worse off. This is a political strike, isn't it? There is a whole
:12:23. > :12:25.disparate range of reasons. The strike is saying that you are
:12:26. > :12:30.against this Government, that is what this is about? I this I what
:12:31. > :12:34.firefighters, local government workers and health workers who are
:12:35. > :12:38.protesting, too, alongside teachers are saying is that this Government
:12:39. > :12:42.is not listening, it is out of touch, people can't carry on having
:12:43. > :12:47.cuts in their living standards depending on benefits. When will the
:12:48. > :12:50.public sector worker ever get a real increase in their pay under a
:12:51. > :12:57.Conservative Government? Well, we certainly hope to have the books
:12:58. > :13:02.balanced by 2018. Not before then? 2018 is when we hope to be able to
:13:03. > :13:10.be in surplus. It is testament... So, no real pay increase for public
:13:11. > :13:17.sector workers before 2018? Interestingly, this isn't just about
:13:18. > :13:20.the Conservatives and the Lib Dems, the Labour Party leadership have
:13:21. > :13:23.said it is a test of their credibility that they support the
:13:24. > :13:27.squeeze on public sector pay. I look forward to them, they ought to come
:13:28. > :13:30.out and say very clearly that these strikes are wrong and they are
:13:31. > :13:36.against the strikes and stop taking union money. It is a democratic
:13:37. > :13:40.right. Hold on. They are - they think the policy of pay restraint is
:13:41. > :13:48.necessary. Alright. On this point about democracy... Ask yourself why
:13:49. > :13:56.so many ordinary decent public service workers are so fed up. They
:13:57. > :14:05.have seen so many billions of pounds wasted through outsourcing to
:14:06. > :14:12.organisations like G4 S. In Unite and UNISON the turnout in this vote
:14:13. > :14:16.was under 20%. Alright. OK. One final question... Hold on. You said
:14:17. > :14:21.millions and millions voted on this... I want to ask you this
:14:22. > :14:26.question. Is the story in the Mail on Sunday today that Mr Cameron's
:14:27. > :14:32.planning a big crackdown on the unions over balloting, is that true?
:14:33. > :14:36.Well, strikes like this... I know the cases, is it true you are going
:14:37. > :14:39.to dhang the law? Strikes like this make that argument stronger. The
:14:40. > :14:44.Conservative Party is in Government on the basis of 23% of the
:14:45. > :14:48.electorate... We have run out of time. Thank you very much.
:14:49. > :14:51."Should Scotland be an independent country?"
:14:52. > :14:52.That's the question the people of Scotland will answer in a referendum
:14:53. > :14:56.If the polls are to be believed, the voters will answer "no".
:14:57. > :14:58.But in 2011 - ten weeks before the Holyrood elections - the polls
:14:59. > :15:01.told us that Labour was going to win and look what happened there - a
:15:02. > :15:06.Alistair Darling is leading the campaign against independnence.
:15:07. > :15:27.is one that puts the matter of independence to bed for a
:15:28. > :15:32.generation. In numerical terms, what would that be? We need a decisive
:15:33. > :15:36.result in September, I think we will get that provided we get our
:15:37. > :15:42.arguments across in the next couple of months. What would it be in
:15:43. > :15:48.figures? I am not going to put a number on it. People will look at it
:15:49. > :15:53.and say, OK, you have had two and a half years of debate and Scotland
:15:54. > :15:58.has now decided. The polls may be encouraging at the moment but I am
:15:59. > :16:03.not complacent, there is still a long way to go. Speculating... If
:16:04. > :16:08.you don't want to answer that, that is fair enough. Your side claims
:16:09. > :16:14.that a vote for independence is a vote for massive uncertainty but if
:16:15. > :16:17.it is a no vote there is lots of uncertainty too. All of the
:16:18. > :16:24.Westminster parties are promising devolution but there is no
:16:25. > :16:30.timetable, no certainty. Yes, there is. For the first time I can
:16:31. > :16:37.remember, all three parties are more or less on the same page in terms of
:16:38. > :16:41.additional powers, we already have powers in terms of policing and
:16:42. > :16:46.transport, now more powers are planned in relation to tax and
:16:47. > :16:53.welfare. But you are all saying different things. Between 2009 and
:16:54. > :16:57.2012, the three parties have slightly different proposals but
:16:58. > :17:02.they came together and there was an agreed series of reforms in relation
:17:03. > :17:10.to tax which are now on the statute book. If you go back to the
:17:11. > :17:14.devolutionary settlement in 1998, people unified around a single
:17:15. > :17:18.proposition so there is history here and these three parties have
:17:19. > :17:24.delivered and they will deliver in the event of people saying we will
:17:25. > :17:28.stay part of the UK. If Scotland vote no to independence, when will
:17:29. > :17:32.Scotland get these extra powers? I would imagine that in the general
:17:33. > :17:37.election all three parties will have something in their manifesto and you
:17:38. > :17:41.would expect to see legislation in the session of Parliament that
:17:42. > :17:47.follows that. Imagining is not certainty. Because the three parties
:17:48. > :17:53.have said this is what they will do, and it is important having said that
:17:54. > :17:57.they stick to it. If you look in the past when the Nationalists said the
:17:58. > :18:04.same thing, when they cast doubt over what would happen in 2012, we
:18:05. > :18:07.delivered. The only party that walked out of both of these
:18:08. > :18:09.discussions were the Nationalists because they are not interested in
:18:10. > :18:13.more powers, they want a because they are not interested in
:18:14. > :18:16.break. You cannot because they are not interested in
:18:17. > :18:22.Edinburgh gets more devolution that wouldn't mean fewer Scottish MPs in
:18:23. > :18:28.Westminster, can you? Nobody has any plans to reduce the number of MPs.
:18:29. > :18:34.If you step back from this moment, what people have been asked to do in
:18:35. > :18:39.September is to vote on the future of their country, Scotland, and
:18:40. > :18:43.whether we should be part of the UK. When I say part of the UK, full
:18:44. > :18:46.members of the UK with representation in the House of
:18:47. > :18:50.Commons and the institutions that affect our lives. This is a
:18:51. > :18:58.critically important vote. We want to see more decentralisation of
:18:59. > :19:03.power to Scotland, and to local authorities within Scotland, but we
:19:04. > :19:08.don't want a complete break with the uncertainties, the risks and the
:19:09. > :19:18.downright disadvantages that would throw Scotland's away if we were to
:19:19. > :19:26.make that break. The economic arguments are dominating people's
:19:27. > :19:39.thinking, the polls show, that is what is dominating at the moment.
:19:40. > :19:44.You cannot guarantee continued membership of the European Union
:19:45. > :19:51.given all the talk now about an in-out UK referendum. Firstly I
:19:52. > :19:55.don't think anyone has ever argued Scotland wouldn't get back in. The
:19:56. > :19:59.big question is the terms and conditions we would have to meet and
:20:00. > :20:04.we are applying to get into something that is established, it
:20:05. > :20:09.wouldn't be a negotiation. What we have said is there is no way Europe
:20:10. > :20:14.would let Scotland keep the rebate which Scotland has, there would be
:20:15. > :20:21.big questions over whether we have to join the euro, and other terms
:20:22. > :20:26.and conditions. The European Union does not act with any great speed,
:20:27. > :20:31.on average it takes eight and a half years to get into Europe. I don't
:20:32. > :20:36.want that uncertainty or the disadvantages that would come
:20:37. > :20:42.Scotland's away that come with losing clout in the European Union.
:20:43. > :20:47.The second point you asked me about is in relation to the UK's
:20:48. > :20:52.membership of the European Union, and if you look at polls, the
:20:53. > :21:03.majority of people still want to stay in the UK. Frankly, a lot of
:21:04. > :21:07.people on my side didn't make the argument against independence for a
:21:08. > :21:13.long time, we have been doing that over the last two and a half years
:21:14. > :21:19.and we are making progress and that is why I can say I think we will win
:21:20. > :21:22.provided we continue to get our arguments across. Similarly with the
:21:23. > :21:27.European Union, the case needs to be made because it is a powerful case.
:21:28. > :21:35.Isn't it true that the Nationalists win either way? They win if it is a
:21:36. > :21:45.yes vote, and they win if it is a no vote. They wanted devolution max so
:21:46. > :21:48.they win either way. There is a world of difference between
:21:49. > :21:53.devolution and further devolution where you remain part of the UK.
:21:54. > :21:58.There is a world of difference between that and making a break,
:21:59. > :22:03.where Scotland becomes a foreign country to the rest of the UK. You
:22:04. > :22:09.lose that security and those opportunities. You lose the same
:22:10. > :22:17.currency, the opportunity with pensions and so on. They are
:22:18. > :22:23.entitled to argue this case with passion, they want a break, but the
:22:24. > :22:28.two things are worlds apart. Gordon Brown said that the no campaign was
:22:29. > :22:32.too negative, have you adjusted to take that criticism into account?
:22:33. > :22:37.Ever since I launched this campaign over two years ago I said we would
:22:38. > :22:45.make a strong powerful case for remaining part of the UK. Look at
:22:46. > :22:49.our research, where we have had warnings from people to say that if
:22:50. > :22:54.we do well with research in Scotland we get more than our population
:22:55. > :22:59.share of the grand and we gain from that. There is a positive case but
:23:00. > :23:03.equally nobody will stop me from saying to the Nationalists, look at
:23:04. > :23:07.the assertions you make which are collapsing like skittles at the
:23:08. > :23:14.moment. Their assertions don't stand up. They assert that somehow milk
:23:15. > :23:18.and honey will be flowing. It is perfectly healthy within a
:23:19. > :23:26.referendum campaign to say that what you are saying simply isn't true.
:23:27. > :23:41.You have been negative, we all know about the so-called Cyber Nats book
:23:42. > :23:49.you compared Alex Salmond to the leader of North Korea. On! The
:23:50. > :23:55.context was that Alex Salmond was being asked why it was that UKIP had
:23:56. > :24:00.additional seat and he appeared to blame television being been doing
:24:01. > :24:10.from another country, from BBC South of the border. If you cannot have
:24:11. > :24:14.humour in a debate, heaven help us. I think it is important in this
:24:15. > :24:19.debate that people from outside politics should be allowed to have
:24:20. > :24:24.their say whatever side they are on because that will make for a far
:24:25. > :24:29.better, healthier debate. Nobody should be put in a state of fear and
:24:30. > :24:35.alarm by worrying about what will happen if they stand up. Despite the
:24:36. > :24:41.nastiness, more and more people are making a stand. We have run out of
:24:42. > :24:47.time. Thank you. I will be talking to the SNP's
:24:48. > :24:54.hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon, next week on Sunday Politics.
:24:55. > :24:59.Scotland: For Richer or Poorer will be on BBC Two at 9pm tomorrow.
:25:00. > :25:04.Disastrous results in the European elections, it is fair to say the Lib
:25:05. > :25:09.Dems are down in the doldrums. In a moment I will be speaking to Nick
:25:10. > :25:25.Clegg, but first Emily has been asking what Lib Dems would say to
:25:26. > :25:33.the Prime -- Deputy Prime Minister on Call Clegg. Our phone in this
:25:34. > :25:37.week is the challenges facing the Liberal Democrats. They are rock
:25:38. > :25:43.bottom in the polls and have dire results in the local and European
:25:44. > :25:46.elections so what can the party do to turn things around? Get in
:25:47. > :25:53.touch, we are going straight to line one and Gareth. How much is a
:25:54. > :25:57.problem of that loss of local support? It is a massive problem
:25:58. > :26:02.because those are the building blocks of our success. The
:26:03. > :26:07.councillors who gets the case work done are also the people who go out
:26:08. > :26:14.and deliver the leaflets and knock on doors. Interesting, and it is not
:26:15. > :26:19.just local support the party has lost, is it? In the next general
:26:20. > :26:23.election there are some big-name Liberal Democrat MPs standing down
:26:24. > :26:33.like Malcolm Bruce and Ming Campbell, how much of a problem will
:26:34. > :26:38.that be? That is a real challenge and we have some of our brightest
:26:39. > :26:44.and best reaching an age of maturity at the same moment so that is quite
:26:45. > :26:48.an additional test in what will be a difficult election anyway. So how
:26:49. > :26:55.does the party need to position itself to win back support? Let's go
:26:56. > :27:00.to Chris online free, has the party got its strategy right? There is
:27:01. > :27:07.always a danger of appearing to be a party that merely dilutes Labour or
:27:08. > :27:12.dilutes the Conservatives. We have a of is serious, positive messages and
:27:13. > :27:14.we need to get those across in the next election because
:27:15. > :27:19.we need to get those across in the people will vote for the Tories.
:27:20. > :27:25.Nick, what do you think of the party's message at the moment? I
:27:26. > :27:30.have had a look at early draft of our manifesto and there is some good
:27:31. > :27:35.stuff in there but the authors are probably too interested in what may
:27:36. > :27:40.think we have achieved in the last five years and not really focusing
:27:41. > :28:09.on what the voters will want to be hearing about the next five years.
:28:10. > :28:12.Perhaps they should get out more and test some of these messages on the
:28:13. > :28:16.doorstep. So you want to see the top ranks of the party on the doorstep.
:28:17. > :28:20.Gareth online one also wants to make a point about the manifesto. There
:28:21. > :28:25.is clearly a problem somewhere near the top and there are some people
:28:26. > :28:29.who seem to be obsessed with power for power's sake, and happy with a
:28:30. > :28:34.timid offer but the Liberal Democrats want to change things. We
:28:35. > :28:39.are running out of time so let's try to squeeze one more call in. What
:28:40. > :28:44.are your thoughts on the long-term future of the party? I think serious
:28:45. > :28:49.long-term danger is that the party could be relegated to the fringes of
:28:50. > :28:53.the UK and no longer being a national party. We have gone back
:28:54. > :28:56.decades if that happens because for many years we have been represented
:28:57. > :28:59.in every part of the country at some level and we have got to rescue
:29:00. > :29:03.ourselves from that. Some interesting views but we are going
:29:04. > :29:08.to have to wait until the general election next year to find out how
:29:09. > :29:12.well the Lib Dems face up to these challenges. Thanks for listening, we
:29:13. > :29:15.are going to finish with an old classic now.
:29:16. > :29:17.# I'm sorry, I'm sorry... #. Nick Clegg, welcome to the
:29:18. > :29:22.programme. I want to come onto your situation in a minute but as you
:29:23. > :29:24.will have seen in the papers, there is mounting concern over and
:29:25. > :29:26.historic Westminster paedophile ring, and files relating to it
:29:27. > :29:31.mysteriously disappearing. Why are you against a full public enquiry
:29:32. > :29:40.into this? I wouldn't rule anything out. I think we should do anything
:29:41. > :29:55.it takes to uncover this and achieve justice.
:29:56. > :30:00.delivered, even all these many years later. How do you do it? There is an
:30:01. > :30:04.inquiry in the Home Office about what's happened to these documents,
:30:05. > :30:08.serious questions need to be asked about what happened in the Home
:30:09. > :30:12.Office and those questions need to be answered. There are inquiries in
:30:13. > :30:16.the BBC, in the NHS and most importantly of all the police are
:30:17. > :30:22.looking into the places where this abuse was alleged to have taken
:30:23. > :30:27.place. All I would say is, let's make sure that justice is delivered,
:30:28. > :30:32.truth is uncovered and I think that the way to do that, as we have seen,
:30:33. > :30:36.is by allowing the police to get on with their work. You say that, but
:30:37. > :30:41.there are only seven police involved in this inquiry. There are 195
:30:42. > :30:44.involved in the hacking investigations. We can both agree
:30:45. > :30:49.that child abuse is more important and serious than hacking. The Home
:30:50. > :30:52.Office, there are reports that Home Office officials may have been
:30:53. > :30:59.mentioned in the dossier, people don't trust people to investigate
:31:00. > :31:02.themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept that we need to make sure that - and
:31:03. > :31:06.the police need to make sure that the police investigations are
:31:07. > :31:11.thorough, well resourced. I can't think of anything more horrendous, I
:31:12. > :31:14.can't, than powerful people organising themselves and worse
:31:15. > :31:18.still, this is what is alleged, covering up for each other to abuse
:31:19. > :31:23.the most vulnerable people in society's care - children. But at
:31:24. > :31:28.the end of the day, the only way you can get people in the dock, the only
:31:29. > :31:31.way you can get people charged, is by allowing the prosecuting
:31:32. > :31:36.authorities and the police to do their job. I have an open mind about
:31:37. > :31:40.what other inquiries take place. A number of other inquiries are taking
:31:41. > :31:43.place. I assume any additional inquiries wouldn't be able to second
:31:44. > :31:47.guess or look into the matters which the police are looking into already.
:31:48. > :31:50.All I would say is that people who have information, who want to
:31:51. > :31:53.provide information which they think is relevant to this, please get in
:31:54. > :31:59.touch with the police. Alright. Let's come on to our own inquiry
:32:00. > :32:03.into the state of the Lib Dems. You have attempted to distance yourself
:32:04. > :32:07.and the party from the Tories, but still stay in Government - it is
:32:08. > :32:12.called aggressive differentiation. Why isn't it working? It's not
:32:13. > :32:18.called aggressive differentiation. It is called "coalition". It is two
:32:19. > :32:21.parties who retain different identities, different values, have
:32:22. > :32:25.different aspirations for the future. But during this Parliament
:32:26. > :32:29.have come together because we were facing a unique national emergency
:32:30. > :32:33.back in 2010, the economy was teetering on the edge of a
:32:34. > :32:36.precipice. I'm immensely proud, notwithstanding our political
:32:37. > :32:38.challenges, which are real, I'm immensely proud that the Liberal
:32:39. > :32:41.Democrats, we stepped up to the plate, held our nerve and without
:32:42. > :32:45.the Liberal Democrats, there wouldn't now be that economic
:32:46. > :32:48.recovery which is helping many people across the country. Why
:32:49. > :32:56.aren't you getting any credit for it? Well, we won't get credit if we
:32:57. > :32:59.spend all our time staring at our navals. If it wasn't for the Liberal
:33:00. > :33:04.Democrats, there wouldn't be more jobs now available to people. They
:33:05. > :33:12.don't believe you, they are giving the Tories the credit for the
:33:13. > :33:16.recovery? Well, you might assert that, we will assert and I will
:33:17. > :33:22.shout it from the rooftops that if we had not created the stability by
:33:23. > :33:25.forming this Coalition Government and then hard-wired into the
:33:26. > :33:28.Government's plans, not only the gory job of fixing the public
:33:29. > :33:31.finances, but doing so much more fairly than would have been the
:33:32. > :33:35.case, if the Conservatives had been in Government on their own, they
:33:36. > :33:40.wouldn't have delivered these tax cuts. They wouldn't have delivered
:33:41. > :33:47.the triple lock guarantee for pensions or the pupil premium. OK.
:33:48. > :33:52.Why are you 8% in the polls? Well, because I think where we get our
:33:53. > :34:02.message across - and I am here in my own constituency - this is a
:34:03. > :34:07.constituency where I am a campaigning MP - we can dispel a lot
:34:08. > :34:11.of the information and say we have done a decent thing by going into
:34:12. > :34:15.Government and we have delivered big changes, big reforms which you can
:34:16. > :34:21.touch and see in your school, in your pensions, in your taxes and
:34:22. > :34:25.then people do support us and, in our areas of strength, we were
:34:26. > :34:28.winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties. It
:34:29. > :34:32.is a big effort. Of course, there are lots of people from both left
:34:33. > :34:36.and right who want to shout us down and want to vilify our role in
:34:37. > :34:41.Government. What we also need to do - and Nick Harvey was quite right -
:34:42. > :34:46.having been proud of our record of delivery, we also need to set out in
:34:47. > :34:52.our manifesto as we are and as we will our promise of more, of more
:34:53. > :34:59.support in schools. So why is it then... Why is it then that a Lib
:35:00. > :35:04.Dem MP in our own film says you are in danger of no longer becoming a
:35:05. > :35:10.National Party. That could be the Clegg legacy, you cease to be a
:35:11. > :35:14.National Party? I'm a practical man. I believe passionately in what we
:35:15. > :35:17.have done in politics. I am so proud of my party. I don't spend that much
:35:18. > :35:21.time speculating that the end might be nigh. There is no point in doing
:35:22. > :35:27.that. Let's get out there, which is what I do in my own constituency, in
:35:28. > :35:30.challenges circumstances and say we are proud of what we have done, we
:35:31. > :35:33.have done a good thing for the country, we have delivered more
:35:34. > :35:37.Liberal Democrat policies than the party has ever dreamed delivering
:35:38. > :35:41.before. We have a programme of change, of reform, of liberal
:35:42. > :35:45.reform, which is very exciting. Just over the last few weeks, I have been
:35:46. > :35:49.setting out our plans to provide more help to carers, to make sure
:35:50. > :35:54.teachers in every classroom are properly qualified, that all kids in
:35:55. > :36:00.school are being taught a proper core curriculum. That parts company
:36:01. > :36:03.from the ideological rigidities with which the Conservatives deal with
:36:04. > :36:08.education policy. Those are thing which speak to many of the values
:36:09. > :36:14.that people who support us... Alright. When Mike Storey gets out
:36:15. > :36:22.and about, he told this programme two weeks' ago that he finds that
:36:23. > :36:26.you "are toxic on the doorstep". Look, as everybody knows, being the
:36:27. > :36:29.leader of a party, which for the first time in its history goes into
:36:30. > :36:34.Government, which is already a controversial thing to do because
:36:35. > :36:38.you are governing with our enemies, the Conservatives, and on top of
:36:39. > :36:41.that, doing all the difficult and unpopular things to fix the broken
:36:42. > :36:45.economy which was left to us by Labour, of course as leader of that
:36:46. > :36:49.party I get a lot of incoming fire from right and left. The right say
:36:50. > :36:52.that I'm stopping the Conservatives doing what they want. There is a
:36:53. > :36:57.good reason for that. They didn't win the election. The left say that
:36:58. > :37:01.somehow we have lost our soul when we haven't. That happens day in, day
:37:02. > :37:06.out. Of course that will have some effect. My answer to that is not to
:37:07. > :37:13.buckle to those criticisms, those misplaced Chris -- criticisms from
:37:14. > :37:20.left and right, but to stand up proudly. Is it your intention to
:37:21. > :37:25.fight the next election against an in-out referendum on Europe? Yes.
:37:26. > :37:30.Unless there is major treaty change? Our position hasn't waivered, it
:37:31. > :37:33.won't waiver, we are not going to flip-flop on the issue of the
:37:34. > :37:37.referendum like the Conservatives did. We want an in-out referendum.
:37:38. > :37:40.With ve legislated for the trigger when that will happen, when in u
:37:41. > :37:44.powers are transferred to the European Union. That is what we have
:37:45. > :37:51.said for years. We legislated for that... So no change? No change.
:37:52. > :37:54.Alright. We are expecting a reshuffle shortly. Will you keep
:37:55. > :38:02.Vince Cable as Business Secretary to the election? I'm immensely proud of
:38:03. > :38:07.what Vince has done. Yes, I intend to make sure that Vince continues to
:38:08. > :38:10.serve in the Government in his present capacity Look what he has
:38:11. > :38:14.done on apprenticeships, he's done more than many people for many years
:38:15. > :38:17.to make sure we build-up manufacturing, the north here, not
:38:18. > :38:23.just the south. I'm proud of what he's done. We have talked about some
:38:24. > :38:28.heavy things. We know you have got into kickboxing. Is there any danger
:38:29. > :38:33.of you becoming a mammal - you know what I mean - a middle-aged man in
:38:34. > :38:43.Lycra! Will the Tour de France influence you? Absolutely no risk of
:38:44. > :38:48.that whatsoever having seen the Tour de France start yesterday near
:38:49. > :38:53.Leeds. I have the yellow Yorkshire sign on my pullover. I will see them
:38:54. > :38:57.later whisk through my constituency. I will not try to emulate them. I'm
:38:58. > :39:01.sure that is to the relief of a grateful nation. Thank you.
:39:02. > :39:04.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:39:05. > :39:08.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:39:09. > :39:10.for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes,
:39:11. > :39:22.the Week Ahead. First
:39:23. > :39:30.Welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. Talks are dead in
:39:31. > :39:38.the water, we ask if executive business will be a casual list of
:39:39. > :39:41.Unionist protest. Joining me on ministers from the Ulster Unionists
:39:42. > :39:47.and Alliance Party 's. John McAllister takes his leave of 921,
:39:48. > :39:55.we look back at the political romance that went sour. He joins me
:39:56. > :40:07.alive. My guests are two journalists.
:40:08. > :40:13.The talks collapsed after 24 hours, the North-South ministerial meetings
:40:14. > :40:18.where respond. The fallout so far from the Parades Commission
:40:19. > :40:26.determination. They wanted to what past the Ardoyne shops on the 4th of
:40:27. > :40:31.July. -- the 12th of July. It is unclear if that will happen. Are the
:40:32. > :40:38.basic functions of government going to fall victim to these latest wave
:40:39. > :40:44.of protests? Danny Kennedy and Stephen Ferry join me this morning.
:40:45. > :40:49.There is obviously crucial work to be done this week for all the people
:40:50. > :40:54.of Northern Ireland. Can you reassure people watching this
:40:55. > :40:59.programme that unlike the talks at the ministerial Council, that will
:41:00. > :41:14.not be impacted by this new pan you nursed action? I have ministers in
:41:15. > :41:18.the executive. We were working on issues last week. I had a meeting
:41:19. > :41:23.with the Transport Minister discussing issues of mutual
:41:24. > :41:37.concern. The work of the executive ministers and the work of everything
:41:38. > :41:44.related to the governance of the country is continuing. I hope the
:41:45. > :41:51.executive will proceed to deal with the normal business. It will also
:41:52. > :42:01.deal with the issue of today, the Ardoyne parade. We have got to read
:42:02. > :42:05.as an executive with those issues. I would ask for that matter to be
:42:06. > :42:13.fully discussed around the executive table. Why is that an executive
:42:14. > :42:18.issue? Because it is of vital importance to the stability and
:42:19. > :42:22.public order and all the issues we are aware of. Why wouldn't the
:42:23. > :42:28.executive what to discuss the issue of the day that is dominating
:42:29. > :42:33.discussion at the moment. I think there is an opportunity. I am
:42:34. > :42:39.interested to see how the other parties react. What happens if your
:42:40. > :42:52.executive colleagues do not want to discuss this? I would be astonished.
:42:53. > :42:53.That those at the top of government level would not
:42:54. > :43:01.That those at the top of government these issues. Danny is free to break
:43:02. > :43:09.it up. If he does there will be a discussion about that. We had talks
:43:10. > :43:19.last week where Danny's party walked out and the DUP. Over a
:43:20. > :43:22.last week where Danny's party walked one particular parade, people will
:43:23. > :43:29.walk away from the table rather than discuss the future of parades. We
:43:30. > :43:33.have to bear in mind that there are established procedures to deal
:43:34. > :43:34.have to bear in mind that there are Commission. People may not like
:43:35. > :43:40.that, Commission. People may not like
:43:41. > :43:45.that there has to be a referee like in the World Cup. We
:43:46. > :43:49.that there has to be a referee like agreement. They are the only sure in
:43:50. > :43:57.town, they are the only law, we have to respect their decisions. Can we
:43:58. > :44:01.discussed this issue. You were pressed on this on Thursday, but she
:44:02. > :44:06.walked out. Now you want to put this on the agenda on Tuesday for the
:44:07. > :44:11.executive meeting. There is a difference between all-party
:44:12. > :44:17.negotiations and executive business. I think we do have to deal with the
:44:18. > :44:21.here and now. It is very interesting that Stephen seems to be indicating
:44:22. > :44:28.that he doesn't want to talk about this specific case of Ardoyne and
:44:29. > :44:33.the way we are approaching it. People will find that astonishing
:44:34. > :44:37.from senior parties and senior politicians because it is one thing
:44:38. > :44:44.to be in discussions and negotiations about longer-term
:44:45. > :44:49.solutions, and those talks are about longer-term solutions for that, but
:44:50. > :44:54.we are in the here and now. We are at a difficult and challenging
:44:55. > :44:59.point. Why cannot politicians at the highest level working in Northern
:45:00. > :45:08.Ireland now want to engage? I am happy to have a discussion. We have
:45:09. > :45:12.to give their place and give them... They have not been given
:45:13. > :45:22.their place now and they are now off the agenda. You going to take that
:45:23. > :45:25.on Tuesday? Let's make a linkage between the economic and financial
:45:26. > :45:33.costs on what is happening with parades on a wider policies. It is
:45:34. > :45:38.costing towers -- is ?10 million on police. Who knows what will happen
:45:39. > :45:45.in the next week with what will happen on the streets, what will be
:45:46. > :45:49.the direct financial costs? What are the political consequences
:45:50. > :45:55.potentially of this graduated response that the joint Unionist
:45:56. > :46:04.statement that was issued on Thursday? What can we expect to see
:46:05. > :46:08.happen in the next couple of weeks? It will depend on progress of the
:46:09. > :46:14.lack of it. It will be a graduated response. Not necessarily an
:46:15. > :46:20.accelerated response. Is there a template or are you just making this
:46:21. > :46:25.up on the roof? No, we're not making this up on the hoof. We want to see
:46:26. > :46:34.progress on all these issues, that is important. It will be interesting
:46:35. > :46:41.to see who is against it. Who wants to see progress on resolving the
:46:42. > :46:45.Ardoyne issue. Before I go back to Stephen Ferry, in the meantime, is
:46:46. > :46:50.the message from you as a senior member of the Ulster Unionist Party,
:46:51. > :46:54.that you do not want to see this issue brought up in the streets? Our
:46:55. > :47:03.preference is that Google is not brought up in the streets, that it
:47:04. > :47:07.is resolved. The graduated response is creating stability --
:47:08. > :47:15.instability. People do not know what it means. There is a danger here. We
:47:16. > :47:20.have to establish that are executive collectively can work, ministers
:47:21. > :47:27.individually may be doing a good job, there is the image of
:47:28. > :47:33.dysfunction. That has not been challenged. You see the institutions
:47:34. > :47:42.are imperilled by what you have heard in the past? It is premature
:47:43. > :47:47.to say. There is signs in terms of the rhetoric that has been used,
:47:48. > :47:51.there is a degree of uncertainty out there. It is not just a case of
:47:52. > :47:58.whether the institutions will stay, we need to change gears and the
:47:59. > :48:02.executive has to be seen to be delivering. The institutions have
:48:03. > :48:06.been put under threat by the behaviour of the Parades Commission
:48:07. > :48:17.and those who threaten the Parades Commission, do you agree with that?
:48:18. > :48:26.It is completely wrong. Peter Robinson said this, do you agree?
:48:27. > :48:35.What I am more interested in is finding a resolution around the
:48:36. > :48:41.executive tables and is -- at executive level. As part of the
:48:42. > :48:44.graduated response, you will wrap things up and that could mean
:48:45. > :48:50.bringing people out onto the streets. Maybe your preference will
:48:51. > :48:53.come to be? I am not going to predict forthcoming events. What I
:48:54. > :48:59.want to do is deal with the here and now and the best way of dealing that
:49:00. > :49:04.in my view and in the view of my party is to have these discussions
:49:05. > :49:11.fully heard, there is accessed through the Unionist party, they
:49:12. > :49:19.would have opinions through the Orange Order, accessed through Sinn
:49:20. > :49:22.Fein. I think those issues need to be seriously challenged and
:49:23. > :49:29.explored. We will leave it there. Let's get some response from my
:49:30. > :49:36.guests of the day. Leon, do you get a sense that we are heading down a
:49:37. > :49:42.one way street with this? I do not think it is for certain yet. Peter
:49:43. > :49:49.Robinson has threatened the collapse of the institutions before. When we
:49:50. > :49:54.get into this territory, eventually you could topple it. I think it is
:49:55. > :49:59.unlikely we will have a resolution to this issue. You would like to
:50:00. > :50:07.thank the executive could put out of joint statement calling for peace.
:50:08. > :50:12.That is not going to be forthcoming. Suzanne, do you think it is
:50:13. > :50:19.reasonable that the executive discuss this as part of the agenda
:50:20. > :50:26.on Tuesday? Yes, of course it is reasonable. It is this is that
:50:27. > :50:32.looking at other political debates over recent days, our politicians do
:50:33. > :50:36.not look like they are members of government. They look like critters
:50:37. > :50:42.of government. They look like participants way they have been
:50:43. > :50:47.fighting. There is disappointment -- disagreements within parties. I
:50:48. > :50:51.could not picture Nick Clegg by David Cameron arguing over what is
:50:52. > :50:58.such a minor matter, a six minute walk down a road. Really, it is the
:50:59. > :51:05.politics of the playground, they really need to grow up. Do you think
:51:06. > :51:11.there are unionists who want to call at the institutions to trigger new
:51:12. > :51:16.elections? I think that is something they are contemplating but I am not
:51:17. > :51:19.sure it would be a good outcome for the DUP if they were collapsed. I
:51:20. > :51:30.would think they would want to hold back on that for a while. Thank you
:51:31. > :51:35.very much. There was one party that lost its whole group. John
:51:36. > :51:42.McAllister finally quit. It was described as the most toxic
:51:43. > :51:44.experience of his life. With a possible investigation by the
:51:45. > :51:49.assembly standards commission for alleged inappropriate sexual
:51:50. > :51:55.behaviour hanging over him. In a moment we will hear from John
:51:56. > :51:59.McAllister. First we look at how the fledgling party imploded so
:52:00. > :52:06.spectacularly and asks if it has any future at all. It began well.
:52:07. > :52:43.It promised the politics of change. What are they about?
:52:44. > :52:50.Now they are together now more. For lights and spectacular not even John
:52:51. > :52:55.McAllister and the former party the Ulster Unionists ever match that.
:52:56. > :53:00.How did it happen? Even early on there were differences over how N121
:53:01. > :53:09.would operate. John McAllister said he's it is a political party. But
:53:10. > :53:13.the wheels came off when this former N121 employee made allegations of
:53:14. > :53:19.sexually inappropriate behaviour against Basil McAfee in, allegations
:53:20. > :53:22.he denies. John McAllister instigated an investigation. That
:53:23. > :53:36.investigation has now been halted instigated an investigation. That
:53:37. > :53:40.disappointed about how her complaint was handled. They are in the
:53:41. > :53:48.disappointed about how her complaint of sanding them into the
:53:49. > :53:53.Commissioner for standards. She is confident this is the correct route
:53:54. > :53:58.to follow. It is for Mr Bean to decide if Mr McRae has committed a
:53:59. > :54:05.breach of the members code of conduct. So how is all of this going
:54:06. > :54:10.down with those who still believe in the N121 dream? The only candidate
:54:11. > :54:19.to get elected at the recent council elections was asked. I stood for
:54:20. > :54:27.election for N121. I believe in the dream of N121. There is no other
:54:28. > :54:32.place for me before the election. Does the party have a future? Of
:54:33. > :54:37.course, there is a band of people working with the core of the party
:54:38. > :54:41.to build it up. I am not going to lie to you and say to you there has
:54:42. > :54:44.not been series issues over the past month. There are a core of people
:54:45. > :54:50.working hard to build this party up to be weighed it should be. Others
:54:51. > :54:56.have given up. This council candidate was part of the Queen's
:54:57. > :55:03.Birthday University N121 party which recently folded. We thought it was
:55:04. > :55:11.unacceptable for them to be reacting in such a way. We at them to leave.
:55:12. > :55:26.Have you left? Yes. Has it that the mob politics? The ice behind --
:55:27. > :55:31.ideas behind N121 were good. I might join another political party. For
:55:32. > :55:41.Johnny McCarthy, the dream leaves on. -- lives on. There are so many
:55:42. > :55:48.people convinced by a strong Northern Ireland state. Whatever
:55:49. > :55:53.person, whatever brand is behind that, doesn't really matter. That
:55:54. > :55:59.dream is still there. N121 have not just lost an MLA, John McAllister's
:56:00. > :56:03.going means goodbye to almost ?30,000 in assembly funding. One
:56:04. > :56:09.thing that is remarkable about N121 is when a party that has only been
:56:10. > :56:13.around for one year, it has had a remarkable impact for all the wrong
:56:14. > :56:18.reasons. If you take a look at what has happened is recently in the last
:56:19. > :56:22.few months, they have managed to tarnish the brand, they have managed
:56:23. > :56:28.to tarnish any prospect of coming back. That is a more -- remarkable
:56:29. > :56:34.feat for a party. As for Basil McCrea, he is considering legal
:56:35. > :56:37.action, but against two it is unclear. We asked for an interview
:56:38. > :56:44.but he declined saying he had a story to tell, but now was not the
:56:45. > :56:50.time. As for John McAllister, is he the man who put principle before a
:56:51. > :57:02.promising political career? I am pleased that you think I had a
:57:03. > :57:09.promising political career. I can certainly live with that comment.
:57:10. > :57:12.promising political career. I can people said I put principle before
:57:13. > :57:17.my career, I do not think it is a bad thing. For now the party goes on
:57:18. > :57:22.but with vastly reduced expectations. It is our intention as
:57:23. > :57:27.onstage to form the government of Northern Ireland. You could say it
:57:28. > :57:34.will be Alister McRae for first Minister? You could say that. He has
:57:35. > :57:38.possibly restart that for now. Until his beaks for himself, we can only
:57:39. > :57:44.guess. John McAllister joins me now. N121,
:57:45. > :57:50.in government for Northern Ireland. Basil saying that he could be the
:57:51. > :57:55.tension lay the first Minister. There are so many things that went
:57:56. > :58:02.on in N121. The organisation stuff wasn't there, it wasn't good, though
:58:03. > :58:08.but the key bit was how do you deal and has N121 the capacity to deal
:58:09. > :58:21.with the allegations made against Basil McCrea? That has to work
:58:22. > :58:26.through. That is going to take time. There was no organisation, no
:58:27. > :58:30.political party can ignore those kinds of allegations being levelled
:58:31. > :58:34.of any member of the party. That was perhaps the straw that broke the
:58:35. > :58:39.camel's back. There were other disagreements between you both
:58:40. > :58:49.before that happened. After so much hope, it has ended in tears. I agree
:58:50. > :58:53.that it is part of... There were other problems. The seriousness of
:58:54. > :59:00.allegations like that, any party, any organisation has to find a
:59:01. > :59:04.mechanism to deal with that. That has moved to the commission for
:59:05. > :59:10.standards. You cannot ignore those kinds of allegations and I would
:59:11. > :59:14.suggest at any time, never mind in the era that we live in today. Do
:59:15. > :59:22.you regret having taken so much on with your relationship with Basil
:59:23. > :59:27.McCrea? Yes, I regret that because the messages of N121, the principles
:59:28. > :59:33.and values I wrote for N121, the road that I set out for N121, to
:59:34. > :59:37.build a new society with a new government and opposition. If you
:59:38. > :59:43.change the structure is in Stormont and how that starts to deliver. That
:59:44. > :59:56.is what N121 would have been about. If Basil did the style off two, I
:59:57. > :00:02.did the substance. We never built a party, but the final implosion was
:00:03. > :00:05.not about these structures are what we built, it was about how do you
:00:06. > :00:13.deal with allegations against a party leader in that term? The N121
:00:14. > :00:20.does not have the capacity to deal with that. That is why we had to go
:00:21. > :00:26.out. Does N121 have a future? That is not now for me to comment on. Do
:00:27. > :00:31.you think it might have a future's I do not think it has a future
:00:32. > :00:41.personally. Do you think Basil is clinging to the wreckage? Yes, I
:00:42. > :00:49.think he is. What is your comment as you sit in the backbench's do not
:00:50. > :00:54.start a party with Basil McCrea. If you asked me how do you build around
:00:55. > :01:02.the ideas of that and the structure and move on from that. It is about
:01:03. > :01:06.promoting ideas and putting our party in opposition to the
:01:07. > :01:10.government. Will you stand for election again? Yes. In South so we
:01:11. > :01:16.have election again? Yes. In South so we
:01:17. > :01:21.McAllister? No. We will have some final thoughts. Suzanne,
:01:22. > :01:23.McAllister? No. We will have some think there is a future
:01:24. > :01:30.McAllister? No. We will have some No. The story is not over. We need
:01:31. > :01:35.be told and he has to clear his name. That will be interesting and
:01:36. > :01:40.that is part of the jigsaw that is missing. It is not about who is
:01:41. > :01:53.right or wrong. So much damage has been done to N121 that it it is
:01:54. > :01:58.over. What is amusing is that the backstabbing and gossip that has
:01:59. > :02:09.been going on, is that it is not women, it is men. It is not waving,
:02:10. > :02:12.it is groaning at the moment. We will see every Basil McCrea talks in
:02:13. > :02:16.before that started. I wish we had longer for that. It is all over to
:02:17. > :02:20.you. What will Thursday's mass
:02:21. > :02:22.public sector strike achieve? Has David Cameron's anti-Juncker
:02:23. > :02:25.attacks clawed back support And is Alan Johnson really thinking
:02:26. > :02:47.about challenging Ed Miliband We will start with the strikes, Matt
:02:48. > :02:52.Hancock was hardline in the head-to-head that he did with the
:02:53. > :02:57.TUC. I guess that the Tory internal polling and focus groups must be
:02:58. > :03:00.telling them that there are votes in taking a tough line? There is that
:03:01. > :03:07.and there is the fact that they are now much more confident on any
:03:08. > :03:14.economic policy two or three years ago. They shied away from it because
:03:15. > :03:18.the economy was shrinking, there was still a danger that public sector
:03:19. > :03:23.job losses would lead to higher unemployment overall. Now, the
:03:24. > :03:28.economy is growing, they have a good story to sell about employment so
:03:29. > :03:32.they are much more bolshy and brazen than they were two or three years
:03:33. > :03:37.ago. They know that it always causes problems for Labour. Labour is
:03:38. > :03:42.naturally sympathetic to the public sector workers, pay being squeezed,
:03:43. > :03:47.they are striking to make an issue of it. And yet they can't quite come
:03:48. > :03:52.out and give the unions 100% Labour support? Exactly. You saw Tristram
:03:53. > :03:55.Hunt on the Marr Show this morning squirming to support the idea of
:03:56. > :03:58.strikes, but not this particular strike. It was always the question
:03:59. > :04:02.that gets asked to Labour - who funds you? That is a real problem.
:04:03. > :04:06.The bit that gets me is they trail this ef are I time there is a --
:04:07. > :04:12.every time there is a strike, this idea of cutting it to ballots and
:04:13. > :04:16.local election turnout was a third. Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of
:04:17. > :04:22.London with 38% turnout. We need to talk about-turnout across our
:04:23. > :04:27.democracy. That is an easy rebuttal for Labour to make. Matt Hancock was
:04:28. > :04:32.hardline about changing the strike law. When you asked him the
:04:33. > :04:35.question, if you are not going to stabilise the public finances till
:04:36. > :04:40.2018, does this mean the pay freeze or no real term pay increase in the
:04:41. > :04:47.public sector will increase till 2018, h e was inner vous on that
:04:48. > :04:51.one. -- he was nervous on that one. This strike is different to those
:04:52. > :04:54.strikes that took place in 2010. At that time, the TUC and the Labour
:04:55. > :05:00.Leadership thought there was going to be a great movement out there,
:05:01. > :05:05.not a kind of 1926 movement, but a great movement out there. This time
:05:06. > :05:11.round, I think the climate is different. Ed Miliband talking about
:05:12. > :05:15.wage increases being outstripped by inflation and people not seeing the
:05:16. > :05:23.recovery coming through into their pay packets. Slightly more tricky
:05:24. > :05:27.territory for the Tories. If The Labour machine cannot make something
:05:28. > :05:34.out of Matt Hancock telling this programme there will be no increase
:05:35. > :05:37.in pay for workers in the public sector till 2018, they have a
:05:38. > :05:40.problem? They do have a problem. They have to say always that they
:05:41. > :05:45.would not just turn the money taps on. That is the dance that you are
:05:46. > :05:48.locked in all the time. Can we all agree that Alan Johnson is not going
:05:49. > :05:57.to stand against Ed Miliband this side of the election? Some
:05:58. > :06:02.politicians are cynical enough. I don't think Alan Johnson is one. Do
:06:03. > :06:06.we agree? There is nothing in it for Labour and certainly not for Alan
:06:07. > :06:11.Johnson. No way. It is the last thing he would want to do. There are
:06:12. > :06:15.some desperate members going around trying to find a stalking horse.
:06:16. > :06:19.Alan Johnson will not be their man. He has more important things to do
:06:20. > :06:24.on a Thursday night on BBC One! Isn't it something about the febrile
:06:25. > :06:29.state of the Labour Party that Labour, some Labour backbenchers or
:06:30. > :06:34.in the Shadow Cabinet, can float the idea of this nonsense? If there was
:06:35. > :06:37.a time to do it, maybe it was in the middle of the Parliament. With ten
:06:38. > :06:41.months left, you are stuck with the leader you chose in 2010. I remember
:06:42. > :06:49.them failing to understand this in January of 2010 when there was that
:06:50. > :07:01.last push against Gordon Brown. Five months before an election, they were
:07:02. > :07:05.trying to do something. The deputy Leader of the Labour Party had
:07:06. > :07:13.something to do with it. There is deep unease about Ed Miliband. There
:07:14. > :07:16.are problems but Alan Johnson is not the man. I think there is no chance
:07:17. > :07:19.of it! If the most recent polls are to be
:07:20. > :07:22.believed, David Cameron appears to have enjoyed a 'Juncker bounce' -
:07:23. > :07:25.clawing back some support from UKIP after he very publicly opposed the
:07:26. > :07:28.appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker to the post of EU Commission
:07:29. > :07:31.president. Last week Nigel Farage took his newly enlarged UKIP
:07:32. > :07:34.contingent to Strasbourg for the first session
:07:35. > :07:54.of the new European Parliament. These two gentlemen have nothing to
:07:55. > :07:58.say today. It was the usual dull, looking back to a model invented 50
:07:59. > :08:02.years ago and we are the ones that want democracy, we are the ones that
:08:03. > :08:07.want nation state, we are the ones that want a global future for our
:08:08. > :08:14.countries, not to be trapped inside this museum. Thank you. I can see we
:08:15. > :08:21.will be covering more of the European Parliament at last!
:08:22. > :08:23.It's rumoured he's likely to stand in the next general election in the
:08:24. > :08:26.Kent constituency of Thanet South, currently held by the Conservatives.
:08:27. > :08:28.Last week the Conservatives selected their candidate for the seat -
:08:29. > :08:30.Craig McKinlay - a former deputy leader of UKIP.
:08:31. > :08:41.Did you get the short straw, you have got a seat that Nigel Farage is
:08:42. > :08:47.probably going to fight? Not in the slightest. It is a seat that I know
:08:48. > :08:50.well. It is a seat that there's obvious euro scepticism there and my
:08:51. > :08:56.qualities are right for that seat. UKIP got some very good... What are
:08:57. > :09:00.your qualities? Deep-seated conservatism, I was a founder of
:09:01. > :09:06.UKIP, I wrote the script back in 1992. My heart is Conservative
:09:07. > :09:12.values. They are best put out to the public by me in South Thanet. It
:09:13. > :09:17.would be ridiculous if Nigel chose that seat. We need a building block
:09:18. > :09:20.of people like myself to form a Government if we are going to have
:09:21. > :09:23.that referendum that is long overdue. I don't think he's got the
:09:24. > :09:28.luxury of losing somebody who is very similar in views to him. He
:09:29. > :09:33.would be best look looking elsewhere. You wouldn't like him to
:09:34. > :09:37.stand in your seat, would you? It would seem to make very little
:09:38. > :09:41.sense. People would say what is UKIP all about if it's fighting people
:09:42. > :09:44.who have got a similar view to them? We do need to build a majority
:09:45. > :09:48.Government for the Conservatives next year because only us are
:09:49. > :09:53.offering that clear in-out referendum. I want to be one of
:09:54. > :09:58.those building blocks that is part of that renegotiation that we will
:09:59. > :10:03.put to public in a referendum. Sounds to me like if the choice is
:10:04. > :10:13.between you and Nigel Farage next May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle
:10:14. > :10:16.Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all. The danger to this country is another
:10:17. > :10:20.Labour Government. That is one of the main reasons that I left UKIP in
:10:21. > :10:24.2005 because that last five years of the Labour Government was the most
:10:25. > :10:29.dangerous to the fundamentals of Britain that we have ever seen. I'm
:10:30. > :10:39.happy with the Conservatives. I have full Conservative values. I am a
:10:40. > :10:48.Euro-sceptic. Thank you for joining us. The Westminster bubble yet
:10:49. > :10:54.again, which has a herd mentality, a bubble with a herd mentality, it got
:10:55. > :11:00.it wrong yet again. Mr Cameron's isolated, he is useless at
:11:01. > :11:05.diplomacy, all of which may be true, but the British people liked it and
:11:06. > :11:08.his backbenchers liked it? True. Although some of us would say it is
:11:09. > :11:12.possible... You are speaking for the bubble? I'm speaking for my segment
:11:13. > :11:24.of the bubble. Some of us argued that he got it wrong diplomatically
:11:25. > :11:29.and it would be wrong politically. It will be the passage of time. We
:11:30. > :11:36.saw UKIP decline between the 2004 European elections and the 2005
:11:37. > :11:39.General. You would expect something similar to happen this time round.
:11:40. > :11:44.The question is how far low do they fall? They are still registering
:11:45. > :11:48.12-15% in the opinion polls. They are. When Mr Cameron wielded his
:11:49. > :11:52.veto which again the Westminster bubble said it's terrible, it is
:11:53. > :11:57.embarrassing, he overtook Labour in the polls for a while doing that.
:11:58. > :12:02.He's had a Juncker bounce. If you were a strategist, would you not
:12:03. > :12:11.conclude the more Euro-sceptic I am, the better it is for me in the
:12:12. > :12:17.polls? In the short-term, yes. This is the short-term thinking we are
:12:18. > :12:21.supposed to despise. The electricion is very clever for a different --
:12:22. > :12:26.the selection is very clever for a different reason. It is this
:12:27. > :12:29.anti-London feeling in Thanet South. He is a councillor, he grew up in
:12:30. > :12:32.the constituency. He is a chartered accountant. He is somebody who can
:12:33. > :12:36.be seen to be a champion of local people. If they had parachuted in a
:12:37. > :12:40.special adviser, they would be in real trouble. He wants to get out...
:12:41. > :12:44.This is the third representative of the bubble? He wants to get out of
:12:45. > :12:48.the European Union which David Cameron doesn't want to do. It was
:12:49. > :12:52.interesting for that statement to MPs on Monday, there were mild
:12:53. > :12:58.Euro-sceptics who said, "I can't take this." The Speaker said can the
:12:59. > :13:03.baying mob, the Conservative MPs, quieten down, please. Ben Bradshaw,
:13:04. > :13:09.the former Minister made it, he said, "I'm reminded when the leader
:13:10. > :13:16.of the Labour Party before Harold Wilson made that famous Euro-sceptic
:13:17. > :13:19.speech and Mrs Gaitskell said darling, the wrong people are
:13:20. > :13:22.cheering." That is the challenge. Thank you, bubbles!
:13:23. > :13:26.The Daily Politics is back at its usual Noon time every day
:13:27. > :13:32.And I'll be back here on BBC One next Sunday at 11pm for the last
:13:33. > :13:34.Sunday Politics of the summer - I'll be talking to Scotland's Deputy
:13:35. > :14:13.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:14. > :14:16.One, two, three, four, here they come.
:14:17. > :14:20.Patton strikes, it's there! Oh, what a goal!