:00:38. > :00:43.Welcome to the Sunday Politics, coming to you live from Edinburgh.
:00:44. > :00:45.Terrorists who use the name Islamic State have carried out
:00:46. > :00:54.their threat to murder the British aid worker, David Haines.
:00:55. > :00:57.They released a video late last night, showing a masked man
:00:58. > :01:03.beheading Mr Haines, who was taken captive in Syria 18 months ago.
:01:04. > :01:05.The jihadist group have already beheaded two American journalists.
:01:06. > :01:07.Now it's threatening the life of a second British hostage.
:01:08. > :01:10.David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil.
:01:11. > :01:12.As we speak he's chairing a meeting of the Cabinet's COBRA
:01:13. > :01:16.President Obama said the US stood shoulder to shoulder
:01:17. > :01:24.Alex Salmond says Scotland "stands on the cusp of history" as
:01:25. > :01:26.he predicts a historic and substantial victory in
:01:27. > :01:34.As the latest polls show the two sides neck and neck,
:01:35. > :01:36.I'll ask Yes campaigner and socialist Tommy Sheridan about his
:01:37. > :01:44.And after last week's last-minute interventions from Gordon Brown,
:01:45. > :01:46.David Cameron, Ed Miliband and big business, I'll ask
:01:47. > :01:50.pro-unionist George Galloway whether it's enough to win over waverers.
:01:51. > :01:51.And on Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland:
:01:52. > :01:55.Ian Paisley's legacy, we hear from friend and foe
:01:56. > :01:58.on their dealings with the political giant through both
:01:59. > :02:03.tumultuous and more peaceful times. step closer back to Parliament. Is
:02:04. > :02:16.Late last night, as most folk were preparing for bed, news broke that
:02:17. > :02:18.Islamic State extremists had carried out their threat to murder the
:02:19. > :02:23.The group released a video, similar to the ones in which two American
:02:24. > :02:25.journalists were decapitated, showing a masked man apparently
:02:26. > :02:29.beheading Mr Haines who was taken captive in Syria last year.
:02:30. > :02:31.The terrorist, who has a southern British accent,
:02:32. > :02:35.also threatened the life of a second hostage from the UK.
:02:36. > :02:37.Mr Haines is the third Westerner to be killed
:02:38. > :02:42.His family have paid tribute to his humanitarian work; they say he
:02:43. > :02:49.David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil, and said
:02:50. > :02:52.his heart went out to Mr Haines? family, who had shown extraordinary
:02:53. > :03:02.Mr Cameron went on to say, "We will do everything in our power
:03:03. > :03:04.to hunt down these murderers and ensure they face justice,
:03:05. > :03:09.Mr Haines was born in England and brought up in Scotland.
:03:10. > :03:13.Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond condemned the killing on the Marr
:03:14. > :03:27.Well, it's an act of unspeakable barbarism that we have seen.
:03:28. > :03:33.Obviously our condolences go to the family members of David Haynes who
:03:34. > :03:39.have borne this with such fortitude in recent months -- David
:03:40. > :03:42.Alex Salmond was also asked whether he supported military action
:03:43. > :03:54.Haines there is no reason to believe whatsoever that China or Russia or
:03:55. > :03:59.any country will see their will to deal with this barbarism. There is a
:04:00. > :04:02.will for effective, international, legal action but it must come in
:04:03. > :04:08.that fashion, and I would urge that to be a consideration to develop a
:04:09. > :04:10.collective response to what is a threat to humanity.
:04:11. > :04:12.Our security correspondent Gordon Corera joins me now
:04:13. > :04:24.Gordon, as we speak, the Cobra emergency meeting is meeting yet
:04:25. > :04:30.again. It meets a lot these days. I would suggest that the options
:04:31. > :04:34.facing this committee and Mr Cameron are pretty limited. That's right. I
:04:35. > :04:40.think they are extremely limited. They have been all along in these
:04:41. > :04:43.hostage situations. We know, for instance, that British government
:04:44. > :04:47.policy is not to pay ransom is to kidnappers. Other Europeans states
:04:48. > :04:52.are thought to have done so to get hostages released, and also not to
:04:53. > :04:58.make substantive policy concessions to the groups, so while there might
:04:59. > :05:01.be contact, there won't be a lot of options left. We know the US in the
:05:02. > :05:10.past has looked at rescue missions and in July on operation to free the
:05:11. > :05:13.hostages, landing at the oil facility in Syria but finding no one
:05:14. > :05:17.there. If you look at the options, they are not great. That is the
:05:18. > :05:26.difficult situation which Cobra will have been discussing the last hour.
:05:27. > :05:29.Does this make it more likely, because it might have the direction
:05:30. > :05:36.the government was going in any way, that we join with the Americans in
:05:37. > :05:41.perhaps the regional allies in air strikes against Islamic State, not
:05:42. > :05:45.just in Iraq, but also in Syria. We heard from President Obama outlining
:05:46. > :05:47.his strategy against Islamic State last week when he talked about
:05:48. > :05:53.building a coalition, about authorising air strikes. And
:05:54. > :05:58.training troops. We are still waiting to hear what exact role the
:05:59. > :06:08.UK will play in that. We know it will play a role because it has been
:06:09. > :06:13.arming the fishmonger forces but the question is, will it actually
:06:14. > :06:18.conduct military strikes in Iraq -- arming the passion are there. We
:06:19. > :06:29.have not got a clear answer from government and that is something
:06:30. > :06:33.where they are ours to discuss what was around the table. It's possible
:06:34. > :06:36.we might learn some more today as a result of the Cobra meeting, but I
:06:37. > :06:41.think the government will be wanting to not be seen to suddenly rushed to
:06:42. > :06:45.a completely different policy as a result of one incident, however
:06:46. > :06:48.terrible it is. Whether it hardens their reserve -- resolved to play
:06:49. > :06:53.more active role in the coalition, that's possible, but we have to wait
:06:54. > :07:01.see to get the detail. -- wait and see. What the whole country would
:07:02. > :07:04.like to see would be British and American special forces going in and
:07:05. > :07:09.getting these guys. I think that would unite the nation. But that is
:07:10. > :07:14.very difficult, isn't it? It is. As you saw with a rescue mission a few
:07:15. > :07:17.months ago, the problem is getting actionable intelligence on the
:07:18. > :07:19.ground at a particular moment. The theory is that the group of
:07:20. > :07:24.kidnappers are moving the hostages may be even every or few days, so
:07:25. > :07:28.you need intelligence and quickly and then you need to be able to get
:07:29. > :07:32.the team onto the ground into that time frame. That is clearly a
:07:33. > :07:35.possibility and something they will be looking at, but it certainly
:07:36. > :07:40.challenging, particularly when you have a group like this operating
:07:41. > :07:43.within its own state, effectively, and knowing that other people are
:07:44. > :07:48.looking very hard for it and doing everything they can to hide. Gordon,
:07:49. > :07:50.thank you very much. Clegg dropped everything and headed
:07:51. > :07:55.to Scotland when a poll last Sunday gave the YES vote its first ever
:07:56. > :08:01.lead in this prolonged referendum If their reaction looked
:08:02. > :08:04.like panic, that's because it was. Until last weekend,
:08:05. > :08:06.though the polls had been narrowing, the consensus was still that NO
:08:07. > :08:09.would carry the day. The new consensus is that
:08:10. > :08:23.it's too close to call. If we look back at the beginning of
:08:24. > :08:26.the year, public opinion in Scotland was fairly settled. The no campaign
:08:27. > :08:30.had a commanding lead across the opinion polls, excluding the
:08:31. > :08:36.undecided voters. At one point, at the end of last year, an average of
:08:37. > :08:41.63% backed the no campaign and only 37% supported a yes vote. As we move
:08:42. > :08:47.into 2014 and up to this week, you can see a clear trend emerging as
:08:48. > :08:49.the lead for the no campaign gets narrower and narrower and the
:08:50. > :08:54.average of the most recent polls has the contest hanging in the balance.
:08:55. > :08:59.There was a poll a week ago that put the Yes campaign in the lead for the
:09:00. > :09:03.first time, 51% against 49%, but that lead was not reflected in the
:09:04. > :09:13.other polls last week. For polls were published last night, one by
:09:14. > :09:20.Salvation, for the macro-2 campaign -- Better Together campaign, and
:09:21. > :09:24.there was another that gave a one percentage point different. ICM have
:09:25. > :09:30.the yes campaign back in the lead at 54% and the no campaign at 46%, but
:09:31. > :09:35.their sample size was 705 Scottish adults, smaller than usual. Another
:09:36. > :09:45.suggests that the contest remains on a knife edge with 49.4% against
:09:46. > :09:52.50.6%. When fed into the poll of polls the figures average out with
:09:53. > :09:56.yes at 49% and polls -- no at 51%. But some people think 18% are
:09:57. > :09:59.undecided, and it is how they vote gets -- when they get to the polling
:10:00. > :10:01.booths that could make all the difference.
:10:02. > :10:05.campaigner and Respect Party MP, George Galloway.
:10:06. > :10:12.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Big business, big oil, big banks, the
:10:13. > :10:17.Tories, the Orange order, all against Scottish independence. You
:10:18. > :10:20.sure you are on right side? Yes, because the interests of working
:10:21. > :10:23.people are in staying together. This is a troubled moment in a marriage,
:10:24. > :10:29.a very long marriage, in which some good things and bad things have been
:10:30. > :10:32.achieved together. And there is no doubt that the crockery is being
:10:33. > :10:37.thrown around the house of the minute. But I believe that the
:10:38. > :10:40.underlying interests of working people are on working on the
:10:41. > :10:44.relationship rather than divorce. I have been divorced. It's a very
:10:45. > :10:47.messy, acrimonious, bitter affair and it's particularly bad for the
:10:48. > :10:53.children will stop that's why I am here. You talk about working people,
:10:54. > :10:56.and particularly Scottish working people, they seem to have concluded
:10:57. > :11:00.that the social democracy they want to create cannot now be done in a UK
:11:01. > :11:06.context. Why should they not have a shot of going it alone? Because the
:11:07. > :11:10.opposite will happen. Separation will cause a race to the bottom in
:11:11. > :11:16.taxation. Alex Salmond has already announced he will cut the taxes on
:11:17. > :11:20.companies, corporation tax, down to 3% hello whatever it is in the rest
:11:21. > :11:27.of these islands. And business will only be attracted to come here,
:11:28. > :11:30.country of 5 million people on if there is low regulation, low public
:11:31. > :11:36.expenditure, low levels of taxation for them will stop you cannot have
:11:37. > :11:39.Scandinavian social democracy on Texan levels of taxation. The
:11:40. > :11:44.British government, as will be, the rest of the UK, they will race Alex
:11:45. > :11:52.Salmond to the bottom. If he cuts it by three, they will cut it by four.
:11:53. > :11:55.And so on. So whether some people cannot see it clearly yet or not,
:11:56. > :11:59.the interests of the working people on both sides of the border would be
:12:00. > :12:02.gravely damaged by separation. Let's take the interest of the working
:12:03. > :12:06.people. As you know, as well as anyone, the coalition is in
:12:07. > :12:10.fermenting both a series of cuts and reforms in welfare, and labour,
:12:11. > :12:15.Westminster Labour, has only limited plans to reverse any of that. Surely
:12:16. > :12:22.if you want to preserve the welfare state as it is, independence is the
:12:23. > :12:25.way to do it. For the reasons I just explain, I don't believe that. But
:12:26. > :12:33.Ed Miliband will be along in a minute. He will be along in May. The
:12:34. > :12:37.polls indicate... They say he is only four or 5%, that is the
:12:38. > :12:42.average. Like the referendum, the next general election could be nip
:12:43. > :12:46.and tuck. I don't, myself, think that the time of David Cameron as
:12:47. > :12:48.Prime Minister is for much longer. I think there will be a Labour
:12:49. > :12:56.government in the spring and the Labour government in London and a
:12:57. > :12:59.stronger Scottish Parliament, super Devo Max, that is now on the table.
:13:00. > :13:04.That is the best arrangement of people in the country. But the
:13:05. > :13:08.people of Scotland surely cannot base a decision on independence on
:13:09. > :13:13.your feeling that Labour might win the next general election. It is my
:13:14. > :13:17.feeling. When the Tories were beaten on the bedroom tax last week in the
:13:18. > :13:20.house, it was written all over the faces of the government side not
:13:21. > :13:30.only that they were headed for defeat, but probably a massive fishy
:13:31. > :13:35.-- Fisher. I think the race to the bottom that I have proper size will
:13:36. > :13:43.mean that the welfare state will be a distant memory quite soon. The
:13:44. > :13:49.cuts and the run on the Scottish economy here in Edinburgh, the
:13:50. > :13:54.financial services industry, that will be gravely damage. The Ministry
:13:55. > :14:00.of Defence jobs in Scotland decimated, probably ended, more or
:14:01. > :14:05.less. It will be a time of cuts and austerity, maybe super austerity in
:14:06. > :14:08.an independent Scotland. You mentioned defence. What about
:14:09. > :14:12.nuclear weapons? The Tories and Labour will keep them. You are
:14:13. > :14:16.against them. Surely the only way to be rid of them in Scotland is by
:14:17. > :14:22.independence. But you are not rid of them by telling them down the river.
:14:23. > :14:27.The danger would be the same -- telling them down the river. The
:14:28. > :14:31.danger would be the same. Nuclear radiation does not respect Alex
:14:32. > :14:37.Salmond's national boundaries. They would be committed to immediately
:14:38. > :14:40.joining NATO, which is bristling with nuclear weapons and is what --
:14:41. > :14:46.involved in wars across the Atlantic. So anyone looking for a
:14:47. > :14:50.peace option will have to elect a government in Britain as a whole
:14:51. > :14:52.that will get rid of nuclear weapons and get out of military
:14:53. > :14:58.entanglements. We are in one again now. I have been up the whole night,
:14:59. > :15:02.till 5am, dealing with some of the consequences and implications of the
:15:03. > :15:09.grave international matter that you opened the show with. David Haines
:15:10. > :15:14.and the fate of the hostage still in their hands. There are many other
:15:15. > :15:18.hostages as well. And there are many people dying who are neither British
:15:19. > :15:23.nor American. I have, somehow, been drawn into this matter. And it
:15:24. > :15:32.showed me, again, that the world is interdependent. It is absolutely
:15:33. > :15:37.riven with division and hatred, and this is the worst possible time to
:15:38. > :15:44.be opting out of the world to set up a small mini-state on the promises
:15:45. > :15:48.of Alex Salmond of social democracy funded by Texan taxes. Let's, for
:15:49. > :15:53.the sake of the next question, assume that everything you have told
:15:54. > :16:04.us is true. Why is your side squandering a 20 point lead?
:16:05. > :16:12.I will have a great deal to say about that, whatever the result.
:16:13. > :16:19.This is very much a Scottish Labour project, is that not a condemnation
:16:20. > :16:27.of Scottish Labour? It is potentially on its deathbed. The
:16:28. > :16:42.country breaking up, the principal responsibility will be on them. And
:16:43. > :16:48.the pitiful, absolutely pitiful job that has been made of defending a
:16:49. > :16:53.300-year-old relationship in this island by the Scottish Labour
:16:54. > :16:59.leadership is really terrible for me to behold, even though I'm no longer
:17:00. > :17:04.one of them. I don't know how they are going to get out of this
:17:05. > :17:10.deathbed. Do you agree that if this referendum is lost by your side, it
:17:11. > :17:13.will be because traditional working-class Labour voters,
:17:14. > :17:17.particularly in the west of Scotland, have abundant Labour and
:17:18. > :17:23.decided to vote for independence? Without a doubt, the number of
:17:24. > :17:28.Labour voters intending to vote yes is disturbingly high. Even just
:17:29. > :17:33.months ago during the European Parliament elections, swathes of
:17:34. > :17:39.people who didn't vote SNP will be voting yes on Thursday. That is a
:17:40. > :17:45.grave squandering of a great legacy of Scottish Labour history, which
:17:46. > :17:50.history will decree as unforgivable. If Labour is to get
:17:51. > :17:57.out of its deathbed in Scotland, it will have to become Labour again.
:17:58. > :18:05.Real Labour again. I am ready to help them with that. My goodness,
:18:06. > :18:11.they need help with it. I wonder if it isn't just a failure of Labour in
:18:12. > :18:15.Scotland. People all over Britain are increasingly fed up with the
:18:16. > :18:20.Westminster system, but it is only the Scots who currently have the
:18:21. > :18:25.chance to break free from it, so why shouldn't they? That is exactly
:18:26. > :18:32.right. They see a parliament of expenses cheats led by Lord snooty
:18:33. > :18:36.and the Bullingdon club elite, carrying through austerity for many
:18:37. > :18:42.but not for themselves and they are repulsed by it. They need change,
:18:43. > :18:47.but you can go backwards and call it change but it will be worse than the
:18:48. > :18:53.situation you have now. A lot of Scottish people don't buy that. It
:18:54. > :18:59.is a big gamble. If I were poised to put my family's life savings on the
:19:00. > :19:03.roulette table in Las Vegas, my wife would not be scaremongering if she
:19:04. > :19:08.pointed out the potential consequences if I'd lost. She would
:19:09. > :19:12.not be negative by telling me that is my children's money I am risking.
:19:13. > :19:16.If I jumped off this roof it would change my point of view, but it
:19:17. > :19:20.would be worse than the point of view I have now. There is another
:19:21. > :19:26.issue here because the Scots are being asked to gamble on the
:19:27. > :19:32.Westminster parties, which they are already suspicious of, of delivering
:19:33. > :19:38.home rule. Alistair Darling could not even tell me if Ed Balls had
:19:39. > :19:43.signed off on more income tax powers for Scotland, so that is a gamble
:19:44. > :19:48.for the Scots. I feel the British state has had such a shake out of
:19:49. > :19:55.all this that they would be beyond idiots, they would be insane now to
:19:56. > :19:59.risk all of this flaring up again because whatever happens, if we win
:20:00. > :20:06.on Thursday, it is going to be narrowly. It will be a severe
:20:07. > :20:10.fissure in Scotland. A great deal of unpleasantness that we are already
:20:11. > :20:17.aware of. That could turn but we're still. It would be dicing with
:20:18. > :20:23.death, playing with fire, to let Scottish people down after Thursday
:20:24. > :20:29.if we narrowly win. If you narrowly win, and if there are moves to this
:20:30. > :20:33.home rule Mr Brown has been talking about, England hasn't spoken yet on
:20:34. > :20:40.this. Whilst England would probably not want to stop -- stop Scotland
:20:41. > :20:49.getting this, they would say, what about us? It could delay the whole
:20:50. > :20:54.procedure. It is necessary, you are right. England should have home
:20:55. > :21:00.rule, and I screamed at Scottish Labour MPs going into the vote to
:21:01. > :21:04.introduce tuition fees in England. I told them this was a constitutional
:21:05. > :21:10.monstrosity, as well as a crime against young people in England. It
:21:11. > :21:17.was risking everything. We are led by idiots. Our leaders are not James
:21:18. > :21:23.Bonds, they are Austin powers. We need to change the leadership, not
:21:24. > :21:29.rip up a 300-year-old marriage. Thank you.
:21:30. > :21:31.It's been one of the longest and hardest fought political campaigns
:21:32. > :21:35.in history, with Alex Salmond firing the starting gun on the referendum
:21:36. > :21:46.Adam's been stitching together the key moments of the campaign.
:21:47. > :21:52.It is the other thing drawing people to the Scottish parliament, the new
:21:53. > :21:59.great tapestry of Scotland. It is the story of battles won and lost,
:22:00. > :22:03.Scottish moments, British moments, famous Scots, and not so famous
:22:04. > :22:10.Scots. There is even a panel dedicated to the rise of the SNP.
:22:11. > :22:14.Alex Salmond's majority in the elections in 2011 made the
:22:15. > :22:19.referendum inevitable. It became reality when he and David Cameron
:22:20. > :22:24.did a deal in Edinburgh one year later. The Scottish Government set
:22:25. > :22:30.out its plans for independence in this book, just a wish list to some,
:22:31. > :22:36.a sacred text to others. This White Paper is the most detailed
:22:37. > :22:41.improvements that any people have ever been offered in the world as a
:22:42. > :22:47.basis for becoming an independent country. The no campaign, called
:22:48. > :22:52.Better Together, united the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems under the
:22:53. > :22:56.leadership of Alistair Darling. Then the Scottish people were bombarded
:22:57. > :23:00.with two years of photo opportunities and a lot of
:23:01. > :23:05.campaigning. For the no campaign, Jim Murphy went on tour but took a
:23:06. > :23:10.break when he was egged and his events were often hijacked by yes
:23:11. > :23:16.campaigners who were accused of being intimidating. In turn, they
:23:17. > :23:24.accused the no campaign of using scare tactics. Things heated up when
:23:25. > :23:29.the TV dinner -- during the TV debate. Fever pitch was reached one
:23:30. > :23:34.week ago when one poll suggested the yes campaign was in the lead for the
:23:35. > :23:39.first time. The three main Westminster leaders ditched PMQs to
:23:40. > :23:43.head north. I think people can feel it is like a general election, that
:23:44. > :23:47.you make a decision and five years later you can make another decision
:23:48. > :23:56.if you are fed up with the Tories, give them a kick... This is totally
:23:57. > :24:01.different. And Labour shelved not quite 100 MPs onto the train, Alex
:24:02. > :24:05.Salmond took a helicopter instead. This is about the formation of the
:24:06. > :24:15.NHS. A big theme of the yes campaign is that changes to the NHS in Linden
:24:16. > :24:21.-- in England would lead to privatisation in Scotland. Alex
:24:22. > :24:28.Salmond's plan to share the pound was trashed by big names. There were
:24:29. > :24:32.other big question is, what would happen to military hardware like
:24:33. > :24:38.Trident based on the Clyde? Would an independent Scotland be able to join
:24:39. > :24:42.the EU? And how much oil was left underneath the North Sea?
:24:43. > :24:50.This panel is about famous Scots, we have Annie Lennox, Stephen Hendry,
:24:51. > :24:53.Sean Connery. I cannot see Gordon Brown. These are big changes we are
:24:54. > :25:00.proposing to strengthen the Scottish parliament, but at the same time to
:25:01. > :25:03.stay as part of the UK. A regular on the campaign, he was front and
:25:04. > :25:07.centre when things got close, unveiling a timetable for more
:25:08. > :25:12.devolution. People wondered whether Ed Miliband was able to reach the
:25:13. > :25:16.parts of Scotland Labour leader should reach, and at Westminster
:25:17. > :25:21.some Tories pondered whether David Cameron could stay as prime minister
:25:22. > :25:26.if there was a yes vote. This tapestry is nonpartisan so it is a
:25:27. > :25:32.good place to get away from it all but it is crystallising voters'
:25:33. > :25:41.views. Look at what we have contributed to Great Britain, and I
:25:42. > :25:44.am British and I hope to be staying British. This is what people from
:25:45. > :25:47.Scotland have done, taken to the rest of the world in many cases and
:25:48. > :25:52.I think I am going to vote yes. I am so inspired by it. It has certainly
:25:53. > :25:57.inspired me to have a go at stitching. How long do you think it
:25:58. > :26:02.would take to do the whole thing? I would say to put aside maybe 30
:26:03. > :26:06.hours of stitching. Maybe by the time I am done, we will know more
:26:07. > :26:10.about how the fabric of the nation might be changing.
:26:11. > :26:13.And I've been joined by yes campaigner and convenor
:26:14. > :26:15.of Scotland's Solidarity socialist party, Tommy Sheridan.
:26:16. > :26:27.An economy dependent on oil, the Queen as head of state, membership
:26:28. > :26:32.of the world 's premier nuclear alliance of capitalist nations - is
:26:33. > :26:42.that the socialist Scotland you are fighting for? No, that is the SNP's
:26:43. > :26:47.prospectus and they are entitled to put forward their vision, but it is
:26:48. > :26:53.not mine or that of the majority of Scotland. We will find out in two
:26:54. > :26:58.years. On Thursday we are not voting for a political party, we are voting
:26:59. > :27:03.for our freedom as a country. That is why people are going to vote yes
:27:04. > :27:08.on Thursday. A lot of people are voting for what you call freedom
:27:09. > :27:13.because they think it will be more Scotland. You have already got free
:27:14. > :27:18.prescriptions, no tuition fees, free care for the elderly. You might not
:27:19. > :27:23.in future have that if public spending is overdependent on the
:27:24. > :27:27.price of oil, over which you have no control. We don't have to worry
:27:28. > :27:34.about one single resource, we already have 20% of the fishing
:27:35. > :27:44.stock in Europe. We already have 25% of the wind, wave and solar power
:27:45. > :27:49.generation. We, as an independent country, have huge resources,
:27:50. > :27:54.natural resources but also people resources. We have five first-class
:27:55. > :27:58.universities, food and beverages industry which is the envy of the
:27:59. > :28:02.world. We have the ability to produce the resources on the
:28:03. > :28:06.revenues that won't just maintain the health service and education but
:28:07. > :28:10.it will develop health and education. I don't want to stand
:28:11. > :28:14.still, I want to redistribute wealth. But all of the projections
:28:15. > :28:21.of public spending for an independent Scotland show that to
:28:22. > :28:26.keep spending at the current level you need a strong price of oil and
:28:27. > :28:33.you are dependent on this commodity which goes up and down and sideways.
:28:34. > :28:37.That is a gamble. I have got to laugh because I have been told the
:28:38. > :28:45.most pessimistic is that in 40 years the oil is running out, panic
:28:46. > :28:48.stations! If you were told by the BBC you could only guarantee
:28:49. > :28:54.employment for the next 40 years you would be over the moon. I am talking
:28:55. > :29:00.about in the next five. You need 50% of your revenues to come from oil to
:29:01. > :29:04.continue spending and that is not a guarantee. Of course it is, the
:29:05. > :29:15.minimum survival of the oil is 40 years. Please get your viewers to go
:29:16. > :29:27.onto the Internet and look at the website called oilandgas.com. The
:29:28. > :29:32.West Coast has 100 years of oil to be extracted. It hasn't been done
:29:33. > :29:38.because in 1981 Michael Heseltine said we cannot extract the oil
:29:39. > :29:47.because we have Trident going up and down there. Let's get rid of Trident
:29:48. > :29:53.and extract the oil. You are a trot right, why have you failed to learn
:29:54. > :29:58.his famous dictum, socialism in one country is impossible. Revolutions
:29:59. > :30:02.and change are not just single event. What will happen here on
:30:03. > :30:08.Thursday is a democratic revolution. The people are fed up of being
:30:09. > :30:13.patronised and lied to by this mob in Westminster who have used and
:30:14. > :30:18.abused us for far too long. The smaller people now have a voice.
:30:19. > :30:27.What about socialism in one country? Mr Trotsky warned you
:30:28. > :30:31.against that. The no campaign represents the past. The yes
:30:32. > :30:36.campaign represents the future. That is the truth of the matter. What we
:30:37. > :30:44.are going to do in an independent Scotland is tackle inequality and a
:30:45. > :30:49.scourge of low pay. If we vote no on Thursday, there will be more low pay
:30:50. > :30:53.on Friday, more poverty and food banks on Friday. I'm not going to be
:30:54. > :31:02.lectured by these big banks, you vote less -- yes and we will leave
:31:03. > :31:08.the country! The food banks will be the ones closing. If you got your
:31:09. > :31:13.way, for the type of Scotland you would like to see, state control of
:31:14. > :31:17.business, nationalisation of the Manx, the roads to Carlisle will be
:31:18. > :31:27.clogged with people Yes, hoping to come into Scotland,
:31:28. > :31:34.because in their hearts, the Scottish people know that England
:31:35. > :31:38.want to see the people having the bottle. The working class people in
:31:39. > :31:42.Liverpool, Newcastle, outside of London, they are saying good on the
:31:43. > :31:46.jocks that are taking on big business. When we are independent
:31:47. > :31:50.and investing in social housing, the people of England will say, we can
:31:51. > :31:55.do that as well, and they will rediscover the radical tradition. In
:31:56. > :31:58.wanting to build socialism in one country, it really means you are
:31:59. > :32:02.fighting for the few, rather than the many. You are bailing out of the
:32:03. > :32:10.socialist Battle for Britain. You think it will be easier to make it
:32:11. > :32:14.work. Think globally, act locally and we will build socialism in
:32:15. > :32:17.Scotland but I wanted across the world. I won my brothers and sisters
:32:18. > :32:22.in England and Wales to be encouraged by what we do so they can
:32:23. > :32:26.reject the Westminster consensus as well -- I want. We had the three
:32:27. > :32:30.Stooges coming up to London, three millionaires united on one thing,
:32:31. > :32:34.austerity. Doesn't matter whether Ed Miliband wins the next election, he
:32:35. > :32:39.said he would stick to the story spending cuts. Why vote for Ed
:32:40. > :32:44.Miliband? You wouldn't trust him to run a bath, not a country. Let's see
:32:45. > :32:47.if this is realistic, this great socialist vision. At the last
:32:48. > :32:51.Scottish election, the Socialist party got 8000 votes. The
:32:52. > :32:57.Conservatives got 30 times more votes. Where is the appetite in
:32:58. > :33:01.Scotland for your Marxist ideology question we might not win it. But do
:33:02. > :33:17.you know what, see in two years time. See when we have the Scottish
:33:18. > :33:19.general election. You won't -- you are saying you might win and you
:33:20. > :33:26.went to the Holyrood election and got 8000 Pope -- votes. The SNP won
:33:27. > :33:30.a democratic election and then won the 2011 election and you know why
:33:31. > :33:34.they won? Because they picked up the clothes that the Labour Party has
:33:35. > :33:39.thrown away. They picked up the close of social democracy and
:33:40. > :33:44.protecting the health service was -- service. There are people in the SNP
:33:45. > :33:49.who believe in public ownership and people in the SNP who believe in the
:33:50. > :33:53.NHS should be written into a constitution as never for sale
:33:54. > :33:57.people in the the SNP that think the Royal mail should return to public
:33:58. > :34:00.ownership. That is there in black and white. Do you agree with George
:34:01. > :34:06.Galloway that this is potentially a crisis for Scottish Labour? Scottish
:34:07. > :34:09.Labour is finished. They are absolutely finished. George is right
:34:10. > :34:14.in that. Scottish Labour is finished. The irony of ironies is,
:34:15. > :34:16.Labour in Scotland has more chance of recovery in an independent
:34:17. > :34:22.Scotland that they have in a no vote. Labour in Scotland in an
:34:23. > :34:28.independent country will have to rediscover the traditions of Keir
:34:29. > :34:33.Hardie, the ideas of Jimmy Maxon, because right now, they are to the
:34:34. > :34:38.right of the SNP as a political party. I understand the socialist
:34:39. > :34:45.vision, but it is where the appetite is. And you look at the independence
:34:46. > :34:51.people in Scotland. One of your colleagues, Brian Souter, a man who
:34:52. > :34:54.fought against the appeal -- repeal of homosexual rights in Scotland.
:34:55. > :35:01.Another of your allies would seem to be Rupert Murdoch, the man who
:35:02. > :35:04.engineered your downfall. You say he engineered your downfall, but I'm
:35:05. > :35:11.still here and his newspaper has closed. Whether it Rupert Murdoch,
:35:12. > :35:14.Brian Souter, or any other millionaire supporting independence,
:35:15. > :35:18.I couldn't care less. This boat on Thursday is not about millionaires,
:35:19. > :35:24.it is about the millions. -- this vote. We will not be abused any
:35:25. > :35:29.young -- longer. Would you rather not have their support? I couldn't
:35:30. > :35:34.care about the support. You know who is supporting the union. It is the
:35:35. > :35:41.unions of the big businesses, the BNP, UKIP, they are the ones who
:35:42. > :35:44.support it. You are giving me a stray that has wandered into the
:35:45. > :35:49.campaign and are you seriously going to argue with me that the
:35:50. > :35:53.establishment isn't united to try and save the union? That is what
:35:54. > :35:57.they are trying to be. The BBC, you have been a disgrace in your
:35:58. > :36:02.coverage of the campaign. Not you personally. You don't have editorial
:36:03. > :36:07.control. The BBC coverage, generally, has been a disgrace and
:36:08. > :36:10.the people. Oil and gas, go and look at that, why is that not feature.
:36:11. > :36:14.Why is the idea of 100 years of oil not featured in the campaign.
:36:15. > :36:19.Because the BBC does not want to see it. Are you getting in your excuses
:36:20. > :36:24.if you lose? You better be kidding. Is this the face of somebody looking
:36:25. > :36:32.to lose. We are going to win, 60/40. Absolutely. There is a momentum that
:36:33. > :36:35.you guys are not seeing on the working-class housing estates.
:36:36. > :36:41.Working class people are fed up being taken for granted fed up with
:36:42. > :36:48.the lives of people dragging us into tax cuts, bedroom tax for the poor.
:36:49. > :36:52.They will have power on Thursday, and they will use it and vote for
:36:53. > :36:57.freedom. Are you happy with the way the BBC has treated you today? So
:36:58. > :37:00.far, yes. I have still not been offered a Coffey, but that might
:37:01. > :37:03.happen. That is an obvious example of our bias. Tommy, we will speak to
:37:04. > :37:20.you later with George Galloway. Hello,
:37:21. > :37:22.and welcome to Sunday Politics. Courageous, controversial,
:37:23. > :37:25.a colossus, uncompromising... Just some
:37:26. > :37:29.of the terms used to describe In this extended edition
:37:30. > :37:33.of the programme, I'll be assessing his career with former colleagues
:37:34. > :37:35.and political opponents. As the Orange Order appeals to
:37:36. > :37:40.Scottish voters not to go it alone, we get the latest news
:37:41. > :37:43.on the referendum campaign. And with their thoughts,
:37:44. > :37:45.the Irish News columnist Brian Feeney and Ballymena Guardian
:37:46. > :37:55.editor, Jim Flanagan. He was a defining, dividing figure
:37:56. > :37:58.in Northern Ireland's history and that legacy is writ large
:37:59. > :38:03.across the newspaper headlines this weekend as we look back at
:38:04. > :38:06.the life and legacy of Ian Paisley. The former DUP leader who died
:38:07. > :38:08.on Friday will be buried It will mark the end
:38:09. > :38:14.of a remarkable journey from the defiance and protest
:38:15. > :38:16.of the firebrand preacher to the compromise and accommodation of the
:38:17. > :38:44.First Minister who shared power with Where are you from?
:38:45. > :38:51.The BBC. What BBC? The BBC. If this is the way they want to play yet we
:38:52. > :38:51.declare our attention is that we will organise massive
:38:52. > :39:43.demonstrations. A great mentor and a great friend,
:39:44. > :39:49.the words of Edwin Poots paying The Health Minister's father stood
:39:50. > :39:53.alongside Dr Paisley in 1969 as a Protestant Unionist candidate
:39:54. > :39:55.and it was a relationship that For you this is personal
:39:56. > :40:02.and political. We'll talk about the political
:40:03. > :40:05.in a moment but your family and How difficult have the past few
:40:06. > :40:19.days been for you personally? well, we knew him quite well and I
:40:20. > :40:25.think things were coming to an end. It has been a sad time for the
:40:26. > :40:29.Paisley family who have been very close to Ian Paisley through the
:40:30. > :40:33.years despite his very public life, they have had a very personal
:40:34. > :40:41.relationship. The relationship that Italy between him and his wife
:40:42. > :40:45.Eileen was one that we could all look to. The love between them
:40:46. > :40:49.whatsoever that and it was something we could all aspire to. Politically
:40:50. > :40:53.we all know that he went on a remarkable journey in the latter
:40:54. > :40:58.days of his career. What's your family entirely comfortable with
:40:59. > :41:02.that? We have stood with Ian Paisley from right back in the late 1960s
:41:03. > :41:11.until he passed away and we absolutely stood with him all of the
:41:12. > :41:14.way. There was no issue there. Ian Paisley has been quite wrongly
:41:15. > :41:21.described over the years. He was a lot more pragmatic than people give
:41:22. > :41:26.him credit for. In 1981 when the Atkins talks took place in the
:41:27. > :41:32.Ulster Unionist did not take part and then later the SDLP opted out
:41:33. > :41:35.and then in further talks Peter Robinson did some negotiations and
:41:36. > :41:43.went back to Ian Paisley and sold it to him. The reality is that over the
:41:44. > :41:47.period of the 1980s and into the 1990s it was not Ian Paisley that
:41:48. > :41:52.was the blockage about moving forward. He always stood against
:41:53. > :41:57.compromise. There was no question of that. He said in one sermon that if
:41:58. > :42:00.you compromise God will curse you but he pulled off the most
:42:01. > :42:07.remarkable compromise that this state has ever seen, how did he do
:42:08. > :42:10.that? I think if you are mixing the religious and the political, on the
:42:11. > :42:15.religious side of things he did not compromise and that is very clear.
:42:16. > :42:19.His preaching was uncompromising that salvation was through the blood
:42:20. > :42:23.of Jesus Christ alone and he had no truck with those who sought to do
:42:24. > :42:28.things by work so he was on compromising in his preaching. In
:42:29. > :42:32.his politics you always have to recognise that you have to have a
:42:33. > :42:35.degree of pragmatism and their work principles that could not be
:42:36. > :42:39.compromised on one could not be compromised was that Sinn Fein had
:42:40. > :42:44.to accept the rule of law and except the police. Everybody said that
:42:45. > :42:48.would never happen and Ian Paisley made it happen. He destroyed other
:42:49. > :42:53.Unionist leaders who were looking for pragmatic solutions to problems
:42:54. > :42:58.in the late 1960s, 1970s and 1980s and 1990s and he was dead fast Lee
:42:59. > :43:05.opposed to that. He saw a whole list of Ulster Unionist leaders including
:43:06. > :43:10.David Trimble because they were prepared to compromise. You say he
:43:11. > :43:17.was pragmatic. He was a man of his time. He was a contradiction and an
:43:18. > :43:23.enigma! Very much so. In the 1970s the IRA killed many people. In 1972
:43:24. > :43:26.and 1973 300 or 400 people were getting killed in those years. They
:43:27. > :43:33.were awful full time that politics was not going to be the solution at
:43:34. > :43:36.that period. There had to be a bringing the IRA to heal in
:43:37. > :43:40.particular and the security forces had a job to do and there would
:43:41. > :43:44.never be a political settlement that the IRA would accept so it was
:43:45. > :43:49.almost impossible for any unionist to accept a settlement that would
:43:50. > :43:53.allow the IRA to continue to engage. There are those who feel he
:43:54. > :43:57.caused a lot of hurt and indeed fanned the flames during the darkest
:43:58. > :44:02.days of the trouble is, do you access to that? No. Why not? There
:44:03. > :44:07.is evidence to suggest that is the case. There is also evidence to
:44:08. > :44:10.suggest something different. I was a man growing up during the troubles
:44:11. > :44:14.and I would have been very angry at what was seeing on the television
:44:15. > :44:17.screens and I was angry about hearing men in the Ulster defence
:44:18. > :44:21.Regiment being killed and police officers being killed on our
:44:22. > :44:26.streets. It was largely through Ian Paisley that young men like me did
:44:27. > :44:28.not end up in paramilitary organisations. We saw a strong
:44:29. > :44:33.leader who would fight our case politically. There is the
:44:34. > :44:38.contradiction because others went down the paramilitary road because
:44:39. > :44:42.they said they did it because of what Ian Paisley said. Yesterday a
:44:43. > :44:47.woman in the Times said many who ended up in prison ruefully pointed
:44:48. > :44:52.to Ian Paisley as their recruiting Sergeant. And yet I was the
:44:53. > :44:56.opposite, I saw him as a strong voice in politics and I did not need
:44:57. > :45:03.to engage in some fight back. If he had given the rubber-stamp to map --
:45:04. > :45:09.paramilitaries and he had given the rubber stamp to go out and take the
:45:10. > :45:14.IRA on in any means... But he flirted with the paramilitaries. His
:45:15. > :45:19.critics called him the grand old Duke of York. By what ever means,
:45:20. > :45:22.many of us who would have ended up in Paola military organisations did
:45:23. > :45:27.not because of him. But some people did and that is part of the tragedy
:45:28. > :45:31.of Northern Ireland. Many of those would have ended up in paramilitary
:45:32. > :45:38.organisations despite of Ian Paisley. What you think of people
:45:39. > :45:43.who chose to forget his past actions and focus only on the last few years
:45:44. > :45:45.of his career where he was in government and he befriended Martin
:45:46. > :45:54.McGuinness and went through his chuckle Brothers base. I find him a
:45:55. > :46:00.more attractive figure in the 1970s and 1980s and 1990s. He was strong,
:46:01. > :46:05.resolute and he was forceful. His pragmatism, which I indicated was
:46:06. > :46:09.already existing in those years when others have just whitewashed that
:46:10. > :46:12.and said he was a blockage when it was actually the Ulster Unionists
:46:13. > :46:16.and John Hume who were the biggest blockage. If you talk to senior
:46:17. > :46:20.civil servants they will tell you that John Hume was more of a
:46:21. > :46:29.blockage to progress than Ian Paisley ever was. I am just stating
:46:30. > :46:34.a fact. The negotiations took place and they could not do it. Let me ask
:46:35. > :46:37.you about the way in which he ended his career, seemingly isolated,
:46:38. > :46:42.divorced from the party he founded and the church that he founded. You
:46:43. > :46:48.are free Presbyterians and a route leading member of the DUP, does it
:46:49. > :46:55.sad anew that he was seemingly ostracised from the organisations in
:46:56. > :46:59.the final stages of his life? -- sadden you. That is not quite
:47:00. > :47:04.correct. He was invited to our annual dinner every year and he
:47:05. > :47:10.attended every year. He spoke each year and we had great times
:47:11. > :47:15.together. Look out what he said all stop I was at a funeral yesterday in
:47:16. > :47:18.a free Presbyterian Church and the amount of affection that existed for
:47:19. > :47:26.Ian Paisley there was absolutely phenomenal. Did exist the other way
:47:27. > :47:32.around? Was the affection from him and his family for the church? His
:47:33. > :47:37.family made the announcement and the party knew nothing about his death
:47:38. > :47:40.until the media broadcast the news. That is quite right that the family
:47:41. > :47:45.were the people who were with him at his death. He had a private life as
:47:46. > :47:49.well and they were entitled to a private life. His family were very
:47:50. > :47:53.close and a lot of us are very close to that family and it will always be
:47:54. > :47:59.the case. In one sentence, what should be his lasting legacy? His
:48:00. > :48:03.lasting legacy was a strong man who stood for the Ulster people, who saw
:48:04. > :48:07.there was a deal to be done and had the courage to do it. Thank you very
:48:08. > :48:08.much for joining us. Let's hear the thoughts
:48:09. > :48:18.of my two guests of the day, Brian Feeney, a strongman who, at
:48:19. > :48:23.the end of the day, did the deal. That is what Edwin Poots says his
:48:24. > :48:27.legacy should be. Might that be part of his legacy? Yes, it is. If it had
:48:28. > :48:32.not been for Ian Paisley there would not have been a deal because nobody
:48:33. > :48:37.else could have carried the DUP with him and made that deal. The reason
:48:38. > :48:43.for that was that Ian Paisley, throughout the whole of his career,
:48:44. > :48:48.had concentrated on attacking the IRA and the Catholic church and
:48:49. > :48:53.merging them together in some of his attacks. But really what his target
:48:54. > :48:57.was was the Ulster Unionists party. The fact that some people say he
:48:58. > :49:00.woke up every morning trying to work out what damage he could do to the
:49:01. > :49:05.Ulster Unionists because he wanted to be top dog. He would not make a
:49:06. > :49:10.deal until he was in a position to be top dog and that happened after
:49:11. > :49:14.he became the leader of the largest party in 2003. That unsettled so
:49:15. > :49:23.many of the people that made him top dog. Of course it did. He led them
:49:24. > :49:25.to believe he would never compromise. The trouble with the
:49:26. > :49:28.bridges that it goes over to the other side and all of the phrases
:49:29. > :49:31.that he said, he spent his whole career attacking Ulster Unionist
:49:32. > :49:34.leaders. As you mentioned, right from O'Neill and the whole way
:49:35. > :49:38.through until David Trimble and then he settled for much the same as
:49:39. > :49:41.David Trimble except you may note that one of the differences in the
:49:42. > :49:46.St Andrews agreement was that the deal was that the First Minister
:49:47. > :49:49.would be the leader of the largest party, not elected on a cross
:49:50. > :49:53.community basis, because obviously he believed he would be the leader
:49:54. > :49:58.of the largest party and it never occurred to him that it might be
:49:59. > :50:01.Sinn Fein. North Antrim was his constituency for many decades and
:50:02. > :50:07.Ballymena was at the heart of his power base. How will people there
:50:08. > :50:12.come to terms with this news, his poor support? They will remember him
:50:13. > :50:16.very fondly for all the work you did for that constituency. He took his
:50:17. > :50:21.peerage title from the area. The most insightful interview I did with
:50:22. > :50:26.him was actually at Stormont on the eve of his standing down as an MP
:50:27. > :50:31.and he was in a reflective mood at that point. He had been
:50:32. > :50:37.confrontational through his life and he was not everybody's cup of tea,
:50:38. > :50:40.the firebrand of politics, what he said was that he had a lot to be
:50:41. > :50:44.confrontational about in those days, not least a campaign by
:50:45. > :50:48.terrorists to destroy Northern Ireland. He was very critical of the
:50:49. > :50:52.intentions of the British government has well. It is the contradictions
:50:53. > :50:57.and be enigmas that a lot of people are struggling to get their heads
:50:58. > :51:04.around. It is not an enigma a contradiction. He is driven by
:51:05. > :51:07.blazing ambition. He wanted us to be the leader of the Ulster Protestant
:51:08. > :51:11.unionists. When he talks about the Ulster people, he talks about the
:51:12. > :51:19.Protestant people of Ulster. When Edwin Poots says it is pragmatic, is
:51:20. > :51:23.that in a nutshell? Ian Paisley in the early 1970s had visited Dublin
:51:24. > :51:30.to see if there was any deal that could be done. He was even talking
:51:31. > :51:33.in terms of the possibility of redesigning the constitution in
:51:34. > :51:39.Northern Ireland, he was open to discussion. He was not in a position
:51:40. > :51:44.to deliver anything until after 2003. He was an instinctive
:51:45. > :51:48.politician and some of the mistakes he made in his career would have
:51:49. > :51:52.been because he acted on gut instinct. That instinct got him most
:51:53. > :51:59.of the right decisions as well. Would he have accepted that he made
:52:00. > :52:06.mistakes and he was infallible? -- fallible. He has excepted that over
:52:07. > :52:09.and over again. The truth is that we are in a better place in Northern
:52:10. > :52:13.Ireland because we had someone strong to stand up to republicanism
:52:14. > :52:19.-- republicanism over the years but he still had the courage to ensure
:52:20. > :52:21.there was a deal to have peace in Northern Ireland. Ultimately his
:52:22. > :52:29.career will be defined by the deal he did in Sinn Fein. Edwin Poots,
:52:30. > :52:31.thank you very much indeed and we will hear from our guests later in
:52:32. > :52:37.the programme. Among those who had serious
:52:38. > :52:41.disagreements with Ian Paisley over the years were
:52:42. > :52:43.direct rule Ministers. However, despite sometimes heated
:52:44. > :52:45.disputes, many retained a degree of respect and even affection
:52:46. > :52:47.for the former DUP leader. Among them one of Mrs Thatcher's
:52:48. > :52:50.Secretaries of State, Peter Brooke. Our Political Reporter Stephen
:52:51. > :52:57.Walker spoke to Baron Brooke When US Secretary of State, you
:52:58. > :53:06.would have had had lots of dealings with Ian Paisley? I was asked by the
:53:07. > :53:11.press how we could square the circle in terms of getting into talks when
:53:12. > :53:16.it looked as though there was no way in which the circle could be
:53:17. > :53:21.squared. And I used to reply then that politics is about human beings
:53:22. > :53:26.and human beings, you know, they come in all shapes and sizes and
:53:27. > :53:31.they have also is of different kinds of family. But the family is
:53:32. > :53:39.important. And just as I think that those who are involved in Sinn Fein
:53:40. > :53:44.IRA will have had families and will have wondered how long it was all
:53:45. > :53:48.going to go on for their families, I was quite clear that, as a
:53:49. > :53:55.grandfather, Ian Paisley was conscious of the future, and that in
:53:56. > :54:01.the ultimate analysis, he did not want his descendants to go through
:54:02. > :54:05.the same experiences or see the province go through the same
:54:06. > :54:10.experiences that they before. And I was confident that when push came to
:54:11. > :54:14.shove, he would in fact to make the right decisions. And there was a
:54:15. > :54:20.moment, obviously, in his thinking when he decided, I am going to have
:54:21. > :54:24.to share power with Sinn Fein? I've never talked to him about it but
:54:25. > :54:32.that would appear to need to be the case. How do you think history will
:54:33. > :54:36.judge Ian Paisley? Well, as I say, human beings and politicians come in
:54:37. > :54:42.all shapes and sizes. And he believed very strongly in his
:54:43. > :54:50.various causes. And I did periodically ask him to explain the
:54:51. > :55:01.theology of particular parables. He was concerned about what was my own
:55:02. > :55:10.doctrinal ancestry, and, in a sense, off duty we had some very, very good
:55:11. > :55:14.conversations and I think he, in the ultimate analysis, exercised his
:55:15. > :55:19.authority and responsibility well. Did you like Ian Paisley? I
:55:20. > :55:26.personally liked him considerably. Did you find there were two Ian
:55:27. > :55:30.Paisleys? One in private and one in public? Well, I'm very conscious
:55:31. > :55:34.that when he was saying rude things about me, you were saying them for
:55:35. > :55:39.his own political reasons! In any of the meetings you had with Ian
:55:40. > :55:46.Paisley, where tempers ever frayed? I don't... I genuinely don't think
:55:47. > :55:55.that. And I asked him once, was there ever an occasion when you
:55:56. > :56:05.felt, I said to him, I had let you down? You know, and had deceived you
:56:06. > :56:09.in any way? And he said, no. There are perhaps one or two occasions
:56:10. > :56:14.when I had to give you the benefit of the doubt but, in principle, you
:56:15. > :56:22.always behaved as you said you would. And you think history will be
:56:23. > :56:26.kind to him? Yes, I do. The former Secretary of State Peter Brooke.
:56:27. > :56:28.Joining me now are the former Alliance Party leader
:56:29. > :56:31.and past Speaker of the Assembly, Lord Alderdice, and from Dublin,
:56:32. > :56:33.the former MP, TD and civil rights leader Austin Currie.
:56:34. > :56:43.You are both very welcome to the programme. Lord Alderdice, how will
:56:44. > :56:47.you remember him? He could be charming and funny. The jokes are
:56:48. > :56:52.almost always on somebody else rather than himself! And actually
:56:53. > :56:59.was not bit of a court person to work with on a one-to-one basis in a
:57:00. > :57:03.meeting. But the other side of it, which is more important, is that
:57:04. > :57:07.effectively started out to undermine liberalism within the Protestant
:57:08. > :57:10.community, particularly within the Presbyterian Church, and liberalism
:57:11. > :57:16.within unionism, the people who wanted to move to and accommodation
:57:17. > :57:21.with nationalism on the island. And he targeted both of those over the
:57:22. > :57:26.years and with a very personal and sometimes nasty level. And in many
:57:27. > :57:30.ways he was successful at destroying those elements of liberalism.
:57:31. > :57:35.Ironically, of course, he came to realise that there was no future in
:57:36. > :57:39.the approach he was taking, and the result wasn't to produce a
:57:40. > :57:45.fundamentalist Protestantism of the kind he wanted but to see young
:57:46. > :57:49.people leaving old churches, and it did not lead to the kind of them he
:57:50. > :57:54.wanted, it let him going into government not with just
:57:55. > :57:58.nationalists but with the IRA. -- the kind of unionism. So in the end
:57:59. > :58:02.he got something even worse than he would have wanted and many of his
:58:03. > :58:07.forebears realise the route he had taken was a disastrous mistake for
:58:08. > :58:11.them and the country. Austin Currie, I wonder, do you think the actions
:58:12. > :58:17.of Ian Paisley in latter years in anyway make up for some of what he
:58:18. > :58:20.was involved with in some of his earlier days? He was vehemently
:58:21. > :58:24.opposed to the civil rights movement and you were one of the leading
:58:25. > :58:29.lights of that back in the 60s. Compromise certainly was not in his
:58:30. > :58:33.vocabulary at that time. Well, certainly they were a very close
:58:34. > :58:42.family and I wish to express my sincere sympathy to the family. I am
:58:43. > :58:52.reluctant to speak ill of the dead. But I have to say that the comments
:58:53. > :58:56.on Ian Paisley since his death have once again illustrated a rewriting
:58:57. > :59:02.of Irish history which has been going on for some time. I knew Ian
:59:03. > :59:09.Paisley very well. He and I were members of the 69 Stormont
:59:10. > :59:13.Parliament. There were only 52 of us so we really got to know each other
:59:14. > :59:20.very well. And in the mid-60s, I described Paisley as a bigoted
:59:21. > :59:30.hangover from the 17th century. I believe that then and I have had
:59:31. > :59:35.little reason to change my mind despite the most recent, almost
:59:36. > :59:46.deathbed conversion. But Paisley was one who attacked your religion, he
:59:47. > :59:50.talked about Catholics reading like rabbits, and multiplying like
:59:51. > :59:53.vermin. -- breeding like rabbits. He attacked the leadership of not only
:59:54. > :00:03.the Catholic Church but the Protestant churches. If the words
:00:04. > :00:07.hate crime had been valid at that particular time, there's no doubt
:00:08. > :00:13.Paisley would have been guilty of hate crime. Austin, you also said in
:00:14. > :00:19.a statement released at the weekend, so let me just quote it, you said,
:00:20. > :00:23.Paisley and the Provos share responsibility for the outbreak and
:00:24. > :00:26.the intensity and outbreak of The Troubles. It is difficult to
:00:27. > :00:33.separate their degrees of responsibility. Is that absolutely
:00:34. > :00:36.fair? Yes, I think it is. And the reaction of certain Provos who have
:00:37. > :00:43.talked about their love for Paisley indicates that they were involved in
:00:44. > :00:51.parallel activity. I am reminded and have been reminded of O'Connell, who
:00:52. > :00:58.was the former IRA chief of staff, and at a time when leading members
:00:59. > :01:05.of the SDLP were described as legitimate targets, he was asked
:01:06. > :01:13.whether Paisley should be shot, and he said no, because he was worth
:01:14. > :01:21.dozens of recruiting sergeants for the Republican movement. On the
:01:22. > :01:26.political front, I had two major disappointments with him. One, those
:01:27. > :01:29.of us who were involved at the start of the civil rights movement
:01:30. > :01:36.believed that we could attract Protestant support because
:01:37. > :01:40.working-class Protestants were much the same position as working-class
:01:41. > :01:46.Catholics. -- were in much the same decision. He ruined that possibility
:01:47. > :01:52.of winning over that support. And then, of course, the power-sharing
:01:53. > :01:56.executive, which, he, along with the IRA, was responsible for bringing
:01:57. > :02:03.down, you do seem to realise it when he brought down in 1974 was almost
:02:04. > :02:07.exactly the same thing he was claiming to support as chief
:02:08. > :02:12.executive. -- he did not seem to realise. You were nodding
:02:13. > :02:17.enthusiastically on that last point. Is that a key thing to understand in
:02:18. > :02:24.the career of Ian Paisley? It is crucial to understand. Ian Stokes
:02:25. > :02:28.these things up before there was IRA violence, long before. And even on
:02:29. > :02:31.the political side, he was damaging and destroying those who wanted a
:02:32. > :02:36.more creative approach to their faith. And there was a very
:02:37. > :02:38.unpleasant personal attack which damaged people not just
:02:39. > :02:45.professionally but personally. And they had lasting impact. I say that
:02:46. > :02:50.as a Presbyterians. He was very opposed to the Presbyterian Church
:02:51. > :02:54.and its move towards humanism. Exactly. Any openness to discussion
:02:55. > :03:00.and engagement were bitterly attacked. And that is not to say
:03:01. > :03:03.that he couldn't be a very pleasant companion and chat and all of those
:03:04. > :03:09.kinds of things. My father knew him bury well, my uncle knew him very
:03:10. > :03:15.well. I knew his background in Ballymena very well. -- knew him
:03:16. > :03:19.very well. But because of his influence, use tipped up the trouble
:03:20. > :03:26.and then later realised it did not bring the outcome that he sought and
:03:27. > :03:33.turned turtle. -- he stoked up the trouble. What do you think things
:03:34. > :03:37.would look like over the last 40 years of Ian Paisley had not been
:03:38. > :03:41.part of that story? I cannot tell you what way it would have been but
:03:42. > :03:45.I can say this. There were many leading people in the churches and
:03:46. > :03:49.impolitic who were trying to move gradually towards the kind of
:03:50. > :03:56.accommodation we are struggling to settle into now. -- in politics. And
:03:57. > :03:59.his extraordinary ability and his extraordinary negative ability is
:04:00. > :04:04.what destroyed those efforts and led to the loss of many lives are much
:04:05. > :04:09.misery which we now, and he and his slate of years, found himself trying
:04:10. > :04:19.to reconstruct. -- and he in his later years. So how will history
:04:20. > :04:24.judge him for going into government with Martin McGuinness? We cannot
:04:25. > :04:28.say. For the moment it is positive and later people will look at it and
:04:29. > :04:32.they might not be as kind as my colleague Sir Peter Brooks suggests.
:04:33. > :04:36.Thank you very much indeed for joining us.
:04:37. > :04:38.To Scotland now, and the referendum campaign,
:04:39. > :04:41.On Thursday, four million voters in Scotland will
:04:42. > :04:44.decide either to become independent or to stay part of the UK.
:04:45. > :04:46.Yesterday in Edinburgh, Members of the Grand Orange Lodge
:04:47. > :04:49.of Scotland paraded along the Royal Mile in the centre of
:04:50. > :04:53.Among them, Orange Order members and bands from Northern Ireland.
:04:54. > :04:55.Police estimated the turnout at around 15,000 in total,
:04:56. > :04:58.and although the marchers were supporting a no vote, the official
:04:59. > :05:05.Better Together campaign had refused to publicly support the event.
:05:06. > :05:11.There have been warnings of possible economic catastrophe for Scotland if
:05:12. > :05:15.it votes to go it alone, with comparisons to the Great
:05:16. > :05:18.Depression, and financial institutions saying they will
:05:19. > :05:25.relocate to London. But what about here? What might it mean for public
:05:26. > :05:29.spending? These are the thoughts of John Campbell. The trade we do with
:05:30. > :05:33.Scotland is substantial. Manufacturing is thought to be worth
:05:34. > :05:37.about ?700 million a year. Some of our biggest construction firms do a
:05:38. > :05:41.huge amount of business there. One has just started building an
:05:42. > :05:45.extension to Tony Blair's old school in Edinburgh. An independent
:05:46. > :05:50.Scotland could make all that trade a little trickier. For example, what
:05:51. > :05:53.impact will different tax and regulatory systems have? And it is
:05:54. > :05:56.still far from certain what currency will be used. Those factors would
:05:57. > :06:02.not make things easier but we should not overstate them either. Tax on
:06:03. > :06:06.currency things many firms deal with everyone -- everyday when they deal
:06:07. > :06:10.cross-border into the Republic. And, remember, an independent Scotland
:06:11. > :06:13.will have to be an open trading economy with as few barriers as
:06:14. > :06:18.possible. But the real indications are around our public finances. At
:06:19. > :06:21.the moment, public spending and distribution across different parts
:06:22. > :06:25.of the UK is worked out using the Barnett formula. We do well under
:06:26. > :06:28.that. If Scotland leaves, the whole system will have to change. It takes
:06:29. > :06:38.a lot of optimism to imagine Stormont will get a better deal. And
:06:39. > :06:40.with Scotland being offered more tax and spending powers if they reject
:06:41. > :06:43.independence, that, too, will call into question the financial motion
:06:44. > :06:48.ship between Westminster and other nations. -- the financial
:06:49. > :06:52.relationship. Would our politicians be prepared to raise taxes to give
:06:53. > :06:57.the health service more would they cut taxes and therefore services in
:06:58. > :07:01.an attempt to spark entrepreneurial activity? These new responsibilities
:07:02. > :07:06.may be coming with a Stormont wants them or not. John Campbell with his
:07:07. > :07:10.thoughts on the possible economic consequences for us of Scottish
:07:11. > :07:13.independence. New polls suggesting this weekend that the no vote will
:07:14. > :07:17.carry the day but the campaign appears to have taken a nasty turn,
:07:18. > :07:22.with warnings and threats coming from also hides. Let's get more from
:07:23. > :07:27.Gerry Braiden from the Glasgow Herald. Only one of the polls, as I
:07:28. > :07:32.understand it, has the yes vote in the lead, and I think I read it
:07:33. > :07:45.saying it was commissioned by the Yes campaign. Today, it has yes on
:07:46. > :07:51.54 compared to the no on 46. Another has yes on 51 and no on 49. It seems
:07:52. > :07:54.a long time since the Better Together campaign. Labour was saying
:07:55. > :08:00.they were expecting a vote of somewhere around 70-30 to put this
:08:01. > :08:06.to bed. If you ask Better Together campaign now where they would take a
:08:07. > :08:10.vote of 50.4%, they would bite your hand off for it! The poles are more
:08:11. > :08:16.than snapshots in this campaign. They have been a catalyst. -- the
:08:17. > :08:19.opinion polls. The reason why the UK political establishment and the
:08:20. > :08:25.media are in Scotland and the reason the markets are getting jittery and
:08:26. > :08:31.the reason the Yes campaign has the mental and confidence is all of
:08:32. > :08:39.this. -- the momentum. There are no two ways about it. UK constitutional
:08:40. > :08:44.position is on a knife edge as it has been since 1921, 22. The Better
:08:45. > :08:53.Together campaign had a shock last week with the YouGov poll which put
:08:54. > :08:56.the yes vote ahead. You saying it is not a given and it be as tight as
:08:57. > :09:19.50.1%? I have seen comments that Alistair
:09:20. > :09:23.Darling is confident of a win for his campaign. I buy into the theory
:09:24. > :09:28.of a silent majority, the people that do not give that much of a damn
:09:29. > :09:32.about the constitutional position of the United Kingdom will come out on
:09:33. > :09:37.the day and they will vote for the No campaign. I am a bit less
:09:38. > :09:42.confident that this morning than I was before. What about these
:09:43. > :09:50.undecided people? We have the race on both sides to appeal to the
:09:51. > :09:55.undecideds and I was wondering if people are trying to steal for the
:09:56. > :09:59.other side, Labour voters who might vote for the No campaign they are
:10:00. > :10:04.trying to get them over to vote for the Yes campaign and then they can
:10:05. > :10:07.come back to Labour. There is apparently poaching and counter
:10:08. > :10:13.poaching. The number of undecided people, and you will hear anything
:10:14. > :10:18.from 5% to 15%, is a story in itself. It is an indication that
:10:19. > :10:20.there are people who are probably not content with the constitutional
:10:21. > :10:24.arrangements that we have at the moment and they might think they are
:10:25. > :10:28.in favour of an independent Scotland but they have a bit of an issue with
:10:29. > :10:40.it. You are right that the campaign does seem to be before the Labour --
:10:41. > :10:46.does seem to be for the Labour vote. A recent poll says that in the last
:10:47. > :10:51.month one third of people have been swayed by what they are hearing from
:10:52. > :10:54.the Yes campaign but only 7% from the No campaign. That is
:10:55. > :10:59.fascinating. Whatever happens it is clear it will be tight, as you have
:11:00. > :11:04.it -- suggested and we now expect. When people in Scotland wake up on
:11:05. > :11:11.Friday morning, whatever the result has been, is it a given that
:11:12. > :11:16.Scotland is a divided nation? There is a real tangible political frisson
:11:17. > :11:19.in coffee shops and buses and school playgrounds and everywhere. I do not
:11:20. > :11:27.think Scotland will ever be the same again. There is this tangible desire
:11:28. > :11:30.for political change that even Ed Miliband is talking about in the
:11:31. > :11:34.Observer today that things can never go back to the way they these are
:11:35. > :11:39.much promised a devolved powers. What happens on Friday is all down
:11:40. > :11:43.to what the vote delivers. Certainly for the foreseeable future, given
:11:44. > :11:48.the scenario is racking up front of us and the rise of UKIP, there is
:11:49. > :11:52.certainly going to be a polarisation in the body politic in Scotland
:11:53. > :11:54.unlike anything we have seen in -- since the 1980s.
:11:55. > :12:09.We will now get the final comments from my studio guests. You are
:12:10. > :12:14.political so I imagine you are following it closely. Should we
:12:15. > :12:19.care? My daughter works in Glasgow so I have been following it closely.
:12:20. > :12:22.It has become polarised debate with both sides making extravagant
:12:23. > :12:28.claims. The Better Together camp warning the dangers and putting the
:12:29. > :12:33.frighteners on people, my own opinion is that they do not know
:12:34. > :12:38.group may be inclined to vote against it because you are inclined
:12:39. > :12:42.to do that if you are not sure. I think the No campaign will shade
:12:43. > :12:48.it. The evidence from places like Quebec is that as the last week
:12:49. > :12:52.happens people go to be safe and go for the No campaign. It is very
:12:53. > :12:55.divisive. The reaction of the No campaign in the last week has been
:12:56. > :13:00.appalling. Peter Hitchens this morning has said the only thing they
:13:01. > :13:03.haven't threatened the yes people with his exploding Agassiz. They
:13:04. > :13:05.have done everything possible to try and scare the yes people with his
:13:06. > :13:11.exploding Agassiz. They have done everything possible to try and scare
:13:12. > :13:15.them and lot of changes they vote for the Yes campaign because it will
:13:16. > :13:23.be like the Irish free State in 1922 who had the pound and coins and
:13:24. > :13:26.notes and everything. We are going to have an intriguing time watching
:13:27. > :13:28.the situation unfold. Thank you very much indeed.
:13:29. > :13:58.everyone in the team for now, bye bye.