:00:10. > :00:13.Good morning from Manchester, where the Labour Party are gathering
:00:14. > :00:16.for their annual conference as British politics adjusts to what
:00:17. > :00:54.the rest of the UK. in Scotland might mean for
:00:55. > :01:00.Scotland's decision to vote 'no' means more powers heading north
:01:01. > :01:07.But what about Home Rule for England?
:01:08. > :01:12.Independence for Scotland has been his life's work. Alex Salmond tells
:01:13. > :01:17.us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And we've
:01:18. > :01:25.got an exclusive survey of what the people who want to
:01:26. > :01:28.With Holyrood hoping for new powers in the wake
:01:29. > :01:31.of the Scottish No vote, is Stormont ready for increased devolution?
:01:32. > :01:34.We'll hear from the DUP and Sinn Fein.
:01:35. > :01:46.We'll hear from the DUP and But what is the next devolution step
:01:47. > :01:49.for the capital? With me, the best and brightest political panel in the
:01:50. > :01:54.business, at least that is what they pay me to say every week. Nick Watt,
:01:55. > :01:59.Helen Lewis and, this week, we have done some devolution ourselves to
:02:00. > :02:05.other areas, and we have Sam Coates from the times. The union survived,
:02:06. > :02:08.but only at the cost of more powers for the Scottish parliament and
:02:09. > :02:12.enshrining the formula that gives Scotland a privileged position when
:02:13. > :02:18.it comes to public spending, which has MPs on both sides of the Commons
:02:19. > :02:22.of in arms. The Scottish question has been answered for now. Suddenly,
:02:23. > :02:32.the English question takes centre stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It
:02:33. > :02:35.has a grubby feel, when that vow was put to the Scottish people, that
:02:36. > :02:42.they hoped would swing the vote, there was nothing about English-only
:02:43. > :02:46.votes. It was unconditional? The Tory proposal did talk very core
:02:47. > :02:49.justly about looking at the proposals by a former clerk of the
:02:50. > :02:58.House of Commons that looked at this issue. That was very cautious. --
:02:59. > :03:00.cautiously. These proposals will not get through Westminster unless David
:03:01. > :03:04.Cameron addresses the English-only issue. You look at people like Chris
:03:05. > :03:08.Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph. Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr
:03:09. > :03:12.Show said you could not have a link between what you are giving Holyrood
:03:13. > :03:22.and English-only MPs. Back on says, is welshing on the deal. -- comic he
:03:23. > :03:29.They were furious that he gave away these tax powers and inscribed the
:03:30. > :03:37.Barnett formula. They said they weren't going to vote for it. It is
:03:38. > :03:41.a shameless piece of opportunism. Now they can say that Labour are the
:03:42. > :03:45.ones that don't trust you and don't want to give you more powers. He
:03:46. > :03:49.knows it is going to be a tight timetable. The idea of getting a
:03:50. > :03:53.draft of this out by Burns Night, most people would say, given they
:03:54. > :03:56.had six years to set up Scottish parliament, the idea we will solve
:03:57. > :04:04.these huge constitutional questions in four months is absurd. But they
:04:05. > :04:09.don't care about the constitutional questions, the one they care about
:04:10. > :04:13.is English votes? There is a simple reason they won that. If you look at
:04:14. > :04:19.the MPs in England alone, the Tories have a majority of 59, an
:04:20. > :04:21.overwhelming bias, and if you strip out Wales Scotland and Northern
:04:22. > :04:25.Ireland, so this has become a partisan issue. The question is
:04:26. > :04:30.whether David Cameron can follow through on the promise. He said he
:04:31. > :04:36.would link the two Scottish powers, but it's not clear you will get
:04:37. > :04:40.either before the general election. It's not but the purpose is to cause
:04:41. > :04:46.Labour Party discomfort, and it is. You can see with date -- Ed Miliband
:04:47. > :04:49.this morning, they find it very hard to answer the question, why
:04:50. > :04:54.shouldn't there be English votes for English laws? Ed Miliband this
:04:55. > :05:00.morning was saying how London MPs get to vote on London transport and
:05:01. > :05:03.English MPs don't outside of London and it is confusing, but Labour is
:05:04. > :05:08.in a difficult position. They were before the Prime Minister made his
:05:09. > :05:12.announcement. The yes side triumphed in Glasgow, the largest city in
:05:13. > :05:15.Scotland, a Labour heartland, and the Prime Minister is saying that if
:05:16. > :05:19.Labour don't agree to this by the time of the general election, he is
:05:20. > :05:23.handing a gift to the SNP, that that would be the party that the natural
:05:24. > :05:28.Labour voters would vote for to see off the plan. It's not just Tory
:05:29. > :05:31.backbenchers. There are Labour backbenchers saying there should be
:05:32. > :05:35.in which bodes for English laws. Even people in the Shadow Cabinet
:05:36. > :05:41.think it is right. The cases unarguable. If you say her chewing a
:05:42. > :05:44.partisan way, you can't sell it to the country. Ed Miliband is on
:05:45. > :05:51.course to have a majority of about 20, and you take the 40 English MPs,
:05:52. > :05:54.and he hasn't got it. This is a coalition government where the
:05:55. > :05:59.Conservatives haven't got really to be in charge, they have put in
:06:00. > :06:03.sweeping laws. Labour should probably take the bullet on this
:06:04. > :06:10.one. Let's leave it for the moment. But don't go away. As they struggle
:06:11. > :06:13.to keep the United Kingdom in one piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband
:06:14. > :06:14.and Nick Clegg promised to keep something called the Barnett
:06:15. > :06:17.Formula. It wasn't invented in Barnet,
:06:18. > :06:19.but by man called Joel Barnett. And it's how
:06:20. > :06:22.the UK government decides how much public money to spend in Scotland,
:06:23. > :06:24.Wales and Northern Ireland. It's controversial,
:06:25. > :06:26.because it's led to public spending being typically 20% higher
:06:27. > :06:28.in Scotland than in England. Well, some English MPs
:06:29. > :06:30.aren't happy about that. I'm joined now by the
:06:31. > :06:43.Tory MP Dominic Raab. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How
:06:44. > :06:47.can the Prime Minister scrap the Barnett Formula when he has just
:06:48. > :06:53.about to keep it on the front page of a major Scottish newspaper? If we
:06:54. > :06:56.are going to see financial devolution to Scotland, more powers
:06:57. > :06:59.of tax and spend, it's impossible not to look at the impact on the
:07:00. > :07:03.wider union, and there have been promises made to the Scottish and we
:07:04. > :07:07.should do our best to deliver them, but there have been promises made to
:07:08. > :07:10.the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. If you look at the Barnett
:07:11. > :07:15.Formula which allocates revenue across the UK, it is massively
:07:16. > :07:19.prejudicial to those other parts. We have double the number of ambulance
:07:20. > :07:23.staff and nurses compared to England. The regional breakdown is
:07:24. > :07:26.more stark with double the amount spent on social housing in Scotland
:07:27. > :07:30.than in Yorkshire and the North West and the Midlands. The Welsh do very
:07:31. > :07:34.poorly on social services for the elderly. What are we saying? That
:07:35. > :07:40.they need our children, patients and the elderly are worth less than the
:07:41. > :07:45.Scots? That's not the way to have a sustainable solution. I understand
:07:46. > :07:48.the distribution impact of the Barnett Formula, but Westminster
:07:49. > :07:53.politicians are already held in contempt by a lot of people and to
:07:54. > :07:59.rat on such a public pledge would confirm their worst fears. Your
:08:00. > :08:03.leader would have secured the union on a false prospectus. First of
:08:04. > :08:08.all, it's clear from the Ashcroft poll that the offer made in the
:08:09. > :08:11.Scottish newspaper had zero effect and if anything was
:08:12. > :08:13.counter-productive to the overall result because two thirds of swing
:08:14. > :08:18.voters in the last few days voted for independence. But we can't keep
:08:19. > :08:23.proceeding without looking at the promises made to the English. We
:08:24. > :08:27.said in the referendum that we would have English laws -- English votes
:08:28. > :08:30.on English issues. The Liberal Democrats, in their manifesto,
:08:31. > :08:34.pledged to scrap the Barnett Formula. We have to reconcile all of
:08:35. > :08:39.the promises to all parts of the UK, and Alex Salmond talks about a
:08:40. > :08:44.Westminster stitch up, but what he's trying to do is, with gross double
:08:45. > :08:50.standards, is in French stitch up in rapid time, which would be grossly
:08:51. > :08:56.unfair to the rest of the rest of UK -- is contrive stitch up. What is
:08:57. > :09:02.unfair about the current spending formula? The extra money Scotland
:09:03. > :09:07.gets from Barnet, is covered by the oil revenues it sends to London.
:09:08. > :09:09.Scotland is only getting back on spending what it pays in tax. There
:09:10. > :09:17.is no analysis out there that suggests it is the same amount.
:09:18. > :09:22.Having voted to stay in the UK. Let me give you the figures. Last year
:09:23. > :09:29.revenues were 4.5 billion, and the Barnett Formula was worth 4.5
:09:30. > :09:33.billion to Scotland. It is awash. A huge amount of British taxpayer
:09:34. > :09:37.investment has gone into extracting North Sea oil, and if we move to a
:09:38. > :09:40.more federal system, we would need to look at things like the
:09:41. > :09:44.allocation of resources, but the Barnett Formula has been lambasted
:09:45. > :09:49.as a national embarrassment and grossly unfair by its Labour Party
:09:50. > :09:54.architect, Lord Barnett. So what we need is to change this mechanism so
:09:55. > :09:58.it is based on need. The irony is, when the Scots allocate Avenue to
:09:59. > :10:01.the -- revenue to their local authorities, it's done on a needs
:10:02. > :10:06.basis, and what is good for Scotland must be good for the rest of
:10:07. > :10:10.Britain. One final question. The Prime Minister is now making his
:10:11. > :10:14.promise of more home rule for Scotland conditional on English
:10:15. > :10:18.votes for English laws. Why didn't he spell out the condition when he
:10:19. > :10:22.made his bow to the Scottish people? Why has this condition been tacked
:10:23. > :10:28.on by the Prime Minister? In the heat of the referendum debate lots
:10:29. > :10:32.of things were said, but the truth is that Parliament must also look at
:10:33. > :10:37.this and make its views known, and English MPs as well. You will find
:10:38. > :10:40.that conservative as well as a lot of Labour MPs would say, we cannot
:10:41. > :10:45.just rush through a deal that is unsustainable. It has to be good for
:10:46. > :10:49.all parts of Britain. Yes, we should deliver on our promises for more
:10:50. > :10:52.devolution to Scotland, but let's deliver on promises to be English,
:10:53. > :10:56.and Northern Irish. Why are they locked out of the debate? Let's
:10:57. > :10:59.leave it there. Thank you for joining us.
:11:00. > :11:01.The man responsible for taking Scottish nationalism from
:11:02. > :11:03.the political fringes to within touching distance of victory, Alex
:11:04. > :11:06.Salmond, has a flair for dramatic announcements, and he gave us
:11:07. > :11:08.another on Friday when he revealed he's to stand
:11:09. > :11:13.Friends and foes have paid tribute to his extraordinary career.
:11:14. > :11:15.In a moment I'll be speaking to Alex Salmond,
:11:16. > :11:18.but first here's Adam Fleming with the story of the vote that broke
:11:19. > :11:40.The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole place converted into a studio for
:11:41. > :11:43.Scotland's big night. You know what you need for big events, big
:11:44. > :11:47.screens, and there are loads of them here. That one is three stories
:11:48. > :11:51.high, and this is the one Jeremy Vine uses for his graphics. The
:11:52. > :11:56.other thing that is massive is the turnout in the referendum, it is
:11:57. > :12:01.enormous. It was around 85% of the electorate, that is 4 million ballot
:12:02. > :12:13.papers. First to declare Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 19,000
:12:14. > :12:19.and 36. The first Noel of the night, and there were plenty more. -- the
:12:20. > :12:22.first no vote. The better together campaigners were over the moon, like
:12:23. > :12:28.Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in 100 different towns. I don't want to
:12:29. > :12:38.sound schmaltzy, but it makes you think more of Scotland. It makes you
:12:39. > :12:40.small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around five a.m., the Yes campaign
:12:41. > :12:47.applauded as they won Scotland's biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went
:12:48. > :12:50.their way as well, but just for areas out of 32 opted for
:12:51. > :12:55.independence. How many copies have you had? This is my second cup of
:12:56. > :12:59.tea on the morning -- how many copies. He was enjoying the
:13:00. > :13:05.refreshments on offer, but the yes campaigners were not in a happy
:13:06. > :13:09.place. We are in the bowels of one of the parts of the British
:13:10. > :13:14.establishment that, I've got to say, has probably done its job in this
:13:15. > :13:19.referendum, because I think the BBC has been critical in shoring up the
:13:20. > :13:24.establishment and have supported the no campaign as best as they could.
:13:25. > :13:29.But there was no arguing with the numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC
:13:30. > :13:35.called it. Scotland has voted no in this referendum on independence. The
:13:36. > :13:37.result, in Fife, has taken the no campaign over the line and the
:13:38. > :13:44.official result of this referendum is a no. There we go, on a screen
:13:45. > :13:49.three stories high, Scotland has said no to independence. As soon as
:13:50. > :13:53.the newsprint was driving north of the border, the focus shifted south
:13:54. > :13:58.as the Prime Minister pledged more devolution for Scotland but only if
:13:59. > :14:00.it happened everywhere else as well. Just as Scotland will vote
:14:01. > :14:05.separately in the Scottish Parliament on their issues of tax,
:14:06. > :14:09.spending on welfare, so to England, as well as Wales and Northern
:14:10. > :14:14.Ireland, should be able to vote on these issues, and all this must take
:14:15. > :14:19.place in tandem with and at the same pace as the settlement for Scotland.
:14:20. > :14:28.It began to dawn on us all that we might end up doing this again. See
:14:29. > :14:31.you for an English referendum soon? Northern Ireland. There could be
:14:32. > :14:38.another one in Scotland. But not next weekend? Give me a break. There
:14:39. > :14:43.was no break for Nick, because Alex Salmond came up with one last twist,
:14:44. > :14:48.his resignation was as leader, my time is nearly over. But the
:14:49. > :14:56.Scotland, the campaign continues, and the dream shall never die. So,
:14:57. > :14:57.the referendum settled, the Constitution in flux, and a leader
:14:58. > :15:08.gone. All in a night work. Alex Salmond is to stand down as
:15:09. > :15:12.First Minister of Scotland. He shows no signs of going quietly. Last
:15:13. > :15:16.night, I spoke to the SNP leader in Aberdeen and began by asking him if
:15:17. > :15:21.it was always his intention to resign if he lost the referendum. I
:15:22. > :15:24.certainly have thought about it, Andrew. But for most of the
:15:25. > :15:30.referendum campaign I thought we were going to win. So, I was...
:15:31. > :15:34.Yeah, maybe a few months back I considered it. But I only finally
:15:35. > :15:42.made up my mind on Friday lunch time. Did you agonise over the
:15:43. > :15:52.decision to stand down? I'm not really an agonising person. When you
:15:53. > :15:57.get beaten in a referendum, you have to consider standing down as a real
:15:58. > :16:01.possibility. Taking responsibility and politics has gone out of fashion
:16:02. > :16:06.but there is an aspect, if you need a campaign, and I was the leader of
:16:07. > :16:09.the Yes Campaign, and you don't win, you have to contemplate if you are
:16:10. > :16:13.the best person to lead future political campaigns. In my
:16:14. > :16:18.judgement, it was time for the SNP and the broader yes movement, the
:16:19. > :16:22.National movement of Scotland, they would benefit from new leadership.
:16:23. > :16:26.In your heart of hearts, through the campaign, as referendum on day
:16:27. > :16:32.approached, you did think you were going to win? Yes, I did. I thought
:16:33. > :16:40.for most of the last month of the campaign, we were in with a real
:16:41. > :16:43.chance. In the last week I thought we had pulled ahead. I thought the
:16:44. > :16:49.decisive aspect wasn't so much the fear mongering, the scaremongering,
:16:50. > :16:52.the kitchen sink being thrown at Scotland by orchestration from
:16:53. > :16:56.Downing Street, I thought the real thing was the pledge, the vow, the
:16:57. > :17:01.offer of something else. A lot of people that had been moving across
:17:02. > :17:04.to independence saw within that, a reason to say, well, we can get
:17:05. > :17:12.something anyway without the perceived risks that were being
:17:13. > :17:19.festooned upon them. You were only five points away from your dream.
:17:20. > :17:23.You won Scotland's largest city. There is now the prospect of more
:17:24. > :17:30.power. Why not stay and be an enhanced First Minister? Well, it is
:17:31. > :17:34.a good phrase. I'm not going away, though. I'm still going to be part
:17:35. > :17:38.of the political process. In Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire
:17:39. > :17:43.wish to keep electing me, that is what I will do. But I don't have to
:17:44. > :17:47.be First Minister of Scotland, leader of the Yes Campaign, to see
:17:48. > :17:53.that achieved. The SNP is a strong and powerful leadership team. There
:17:54. > :17:56.are a number of people that would do a fantastic job as leader of the
:17:57. > :18:03.party and First Minister. I've been leader of the party for the last 24
:18:04. > :18:06.years, I think it is time to give somebody else a shot. There are many
:18:07. > :18:10.able-bodied people that will do that well. -- many able people that will
:18:11. > :18:18.do that well. I'm still part of the national movement, arguing to take
:18:19. > :18:21.this forward. I think you are right, the question, one of the irony is
:18:22. > :18:25.developing so quickly after the referendum, it might be those that
:18:26. > :18:31.lost on Thursday end up as the political winners and those that won
:18:32. > :18:35.end up as the losers. When we met just for the vote, a couple of days
:18:36. > :18:39.before the vote, you said to me that there was very little you would
:18:40. > :18:46.change about the campaign strategy. Is that still your view? Yes. There
:18:47. > :18:51.are one or two things, like any campaign, there is no such thing as
:18:52. > :18:56.a pitcher campaign. I would refer not to dwell on such things. I will
:18:57. > :19:01.leave of my book, which will be called 100 Days, coming out before
:19:02. > :19:04.Christmas. Once you read that, I will probably reveal the things I
:19:05. > :19:09.would have changed. Basically, broadly, this was an extraordinary
:19:10. > :19:13.campaign. Not just a political campaign, but a campaign involving
:19:14. > :19:17.the grassroots of Scotland in an energising, empowering way, the like
:19:18. > :19:20.of which in on of us have witnessed. It was an extraordinary phenomenon
:19:21. > :19:27.of grassroots campaigning, which carried the Yes Campaign so far,
:19:28. > :19:38.almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch put his Scottish Sun behind you,
:19:39. > :19:45.would have that made the difference? If ifs and ands were pots and
:19:46. > :19:49.pans... Why did he not? I would not say that, you have form with him
:19:50. > :19:56.that I do not have. I'm not sure about that. I was very encouraged.
:19:57. > :20:00.The coverage, not in the other papers, The Times, which was
:20:01. > :20:05.extremely hostile to Scottish independence, but the coverage in
:20:06. > :20:14.the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced and we certainly got a very fair
:20:15. > :20:17.kick of the ball. In newspapers, I would settle for no editorial line
:20:18. > :20:21.and just balanced coverage. We certainly got that from the Scottish
:20:22. > :20:27.Sun and that was an encouragement. I think you saw from his tweets,
:20:28. > :20:37.certainly in his heart he would have liked to have seen a move forward in
:20:38. > :20:42.Scotland and I like that. He said if you lost, that was it, referendum
:20:43. > :20:48.wise, for a generation, which he defined as about 20 years. Is that
:20:49. > :20:51.still your view? Yes, it is. It has always been my view. It's a personal
:20:52. > :20:57.view. There are always things that can change in politics. If the UK
:20:58. > :20:59.moved out of the European Union, for example, that would be the sort of
:21:00. > :21:03.circumstance. Some people would argue with Westminster parties, and
:21:04. > :21:09.I'm actually not surprised that they are reneging on commitments, I am
:21:10. > :21:13.just surprised by the speed they are doing it. They seem to be totally
:21:14. > :21:19.shameless in these matters. You don't think they will meet the vow?
:21:20. > :21:22.You don't think there will keep to their vow? They are not, for that
:21:23. > :21:28.essential reason you saw developing on Friday. The Prime Minister wants
:21:29. > :21:31.to link change in Scotland to change in England. He wants to do that
:21:32. > :21:35.because he has difficulty in carrying his backbenchers on this
:21:36. > :21:39.and they are under pressure from UKIP. The Labour leadership are
:21:40. > :21:42.frightened of any changes in England which leave them without a majority
:21:43. > :21:47.in the House of Commons on English matters. I would not call it an
:21:48. > :21:53.irresistible force and immovable object, one is resistible and one is
:21:54. > :21:57.movable. They are at loggerheads. The vow, I think, was something
:21:58. > :21:59.cooked up in desperation for the last few days of the campaign. I
:22:00. > :22:06.think everybody in Scotland now engines that. -- recognises that. It
:22:07. > :22:10.was the people that were persuaded to vote no that word tricked,
:22:11. > :22:16.effectively. They are the ones that are really angry. Ed Miliband and
:22:17. > :22:23.David Cameron, if they are watching this, I would be more worried about
:22:24. > :22:30.the anger of the no voters than the opinion of the Yes Vote on that
:22:31. > :22:36.matter. If independence is on the back burner for now, what would you
:22:37. > :22:41.advise your successor's strategy for the SNP to be? I would advise him or
:22:42. > :22:49.her not to listen to advice from their predecessor. A new leader
:22:50. > :22:53.brings forward a new strategy. I think this is, for the SNP, a very
:22:54. > :23:00.favourable political time. There have been 5000 new members joined
:23:01. > :23:03.since Thursday. That is about a 25% increase in the party membership in
:23:04. > :23:15.the space of a few days. More than that, I think this is an opportunity
:23:16. > :23:19.for the SNP. But my goal is the opportunity for Scotland. I would
:23:20. > :23:25.repeat I am not retiring from politics. I'm standing down as First
:23:26. > :23:29.Minister of Scotland. On Friday, coming back to the north-east of
:23:30. > :23:36.Scotland, I passed through Dundee, which voted yes by a stud --
:23:37. > :23:39.substantial margin. There was a line of a song I couldn't get out of my
:23:40. > :23:48.head, and old Jacobite song, rewritten by Robert Burns, the last
:23:49. > :23:55.line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in the midst of your glee, you've not
:23:56. > :23:59.seen the last of my bonnets and me. So you are staying a member of the
:24:00. > :24:04.Scottish Parliament, shall we see you again in the House of Commons?
:24:05. > :24:11.What does the future hold for you? Membership of Scottish Parliament is
:24:12. > :24:14.dependent on the good folk of Aberdeenshire east. If they choose
:24:15. > :24:20.to elect me, I will be delighted to serve. I've always loved being a
:24:21. > :24:22.constituency member of Parliament, I have known some front line
:24:23. > :24:27.politicians that regarded that as a chore. I'm not saying they didn't do
:24:28. > :24:33.it properly, I am sure they did. But I love it. You get distilled wisdom
:24:34. > :24:36.from being a constituency member of Parliament that helps you keep your
:24:37. > :24:39.feet on the ground and have a good observation as to what matters to
:24:40. > :24:45.people. I have no difficulty with being a constituent member of
:24:46. > :24:56.Parliament. Can you promise me it will never be Lord Salmond? Yes!
:24:57. > :25:04.Thanks for joining us. Great pleasure, thank you. Now, the
:25:05. > :25:08.independence referendum is over, the next big electoral test is a general
:25:09. > :25:14.election. It is just over seven months away. In a moment I will be
:25:15. > :25:18.talking to Chuka Umunna, but what are the political views of the men
:25:19. > :25:22.and women fighting to win seats for the Labour Party? The Sunday
:25:23. > :25:27.Politics has commissioned an exclusive survey of the
:25:28. > :25:30.Parliamentary candidates. Six out of seven Labour candidates
:25:31. > :25:34.say that the level of public spending during their last period of
:25:35. > :25:39.office was about right. 40% of them want a Labour government to raise
:25:40. > :25:43.taxes to reduce the budget deficit. 18% favour cutting spending. On
:25:44. > :25:49.immigration, just 15% think that the number coming to Britain is too
:25:50. > :25:52.high. Only 7% say we generous to immigrants. Three in ten candidates
:25:53. > :25:56.believe the party relationship with trade unions is not close enough.
:25:57. > :26:02.Not that we spoke to think it is too close. Or than half of the
:26:03. > :26:05.candidates say want to scrap the nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in
:26:06. > :26:11.five want to nationalise the railways. If they are after a change
:26:12. > :26:20.of leader, Yvette Cooper was their preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came
:26:21. > :26:24.in fourth. And he joins me now for the Sunday interview.
:26:25. > :26:31.Why is Labour choosing so many left-wing candidates? I don't think
:26:32. > :26:34.I accept the characterisation of candidates being left wing. I don't
:26:35. > :26:38.think your viewers see politics in terms of what is left and right. I
:26:39. > :26:43.think they see it in terms of what is right and wrong. Obviously, many
:26:44. > :26:46.of the things we have been talking about, how we ensure that the next
:26:47. > :26:49.generation can do better than the last, how we raise the wages of your
:26:50. > :26:53.viewers, who are currently working very hard but not making a wage they
:26:54. > :26:57.can live off, that is what they are talking about and that is what the
:26:58. > :27:02.public will judge them on. But they want to raise taxes, they don't want
:27:03. > :27:04.to cut public spending, they want to re-nationalise the railways, they
:27:05. > :27:07.don't think there is too much immigration, they want to scrap
:27:08. > :27:12.Trident. These are all positions clearly to the left of current party
:27:13. > :27:16.policy. But that is your characterisation. If you look at our
:27:17. > :27:20.policy to increase the top rate of tax to 50% for people earning over
:27:21. > :27:23.?150,000, that is a central position. It is something that
:27:24. > :27:31.enjoys the support of the majority of the public. Trident? If you talk
:27:32. > :27:35.to the British public about immigration, yes, there are concerns
:27:36. > :27:39.about the numbers coming in and out, yes people want to see integration,
:27:40. > :27:42.yes, people want to see people putting a contribution before they
:27:43. > :27:46.take out, the people recognise, if you look at our multicultural
:27:47. > :27:49.nation, we have derived a lot of benefits from immigration. I don't
:27:50. > :27:56.think your characterisation of those positions, that is your view... It's
:27:57. > :28:01.not, it is their view. They are saying... You describe it... You
:28:02. > :28:05.described those positions as left wing positions. I am saying to you
:28:06. > :28:10.that I actually think a lot of those positions are centrist positions
:28:11. > :28:13.that would enjoy the support of the majority of your viewers. I don't
:28:14. > :28:18.think your viewers think the idea of the broadest shoulders bearing the
:28:19. > :28:22.heaviest burden in forms of tax are going to see it as a way out,
:28:23. > :28:26.radical principle. They want to scrap Trident, not party policy? It
:28:27. > :28:36.isn't. I think that 73... Well, we will
:28:37. > :28:40.have 400 Parliamentary candidates at the time of the next general
:28:41. > :28:44.election, not including current MPs. This is 73 out of over 400 of them.
:28:45. > :28:50.I think we also need to treat the survey with a bit of caution. They
:28:51. > :28:54.are not representative? You are basically quoting the results of a
:28:55. > :28:58.small percentage of our Parliamentary candidates. It's
:28:59. > :29:02.pretty safe to say when you look at their views, they might be right or
:29:03. > :29:06.wrong, that's not my point, it's fairly safe to say that new Labour
:29:07. > :29:14.is dead? Again, I don't think people see things in terms of gold -- old
:29:15. > :29:18.or new Labour. We are standing at a Labour Party. We are a great
:29:19. > :29:23.country, but we have big challenges. We want to make sure that people can
:29:24. > :29:27.achieve their dreams and aspirations in this country. Too many people are
:29:28. > :29:30.not in that position. Too many people worry about the prospects of
:29:31. > :29:34.their children. Too many people do not earn a wage they can live off.
:29:35. > :29:37.Too many people are worried about the change. We have to make sure we
:29:38. > :29:41.are giving people a stake in the future. That is a Labour thing, you
:29:42. > :29:44.want to call it old or new come I don't care. It's a choice between
:29:45. > :29:54.Labour and the Conservatives in terms of who runs the next
:29:55. > :29:56.government. That one of your candidate we spoke to things that
:29:57. > :30:00.the party's relationship with the unions is to close. 30% of them
:30:01. > :30:04.think it should be closer. You have spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates.
:30:05. > :30:10.Why should the others be any different? It's a fairly
:30:11. > :30:14.representative Sample. Many people working on this set are the member
:30:15. > :30:16.of the union, the National union of journalists. People that came here
:30:17. > :30:21.to this Conference would have been brought here by trade union members.
:30:22. > :30:26.Do you think the relationship should be closer? I think it is where it
:30:27. > :30:30.should be. It should not be closer? I think that trade unions help
:30:31. > :30:35.create wealth in our country. If you look at some other success stories
:30:36. > :30:39.we are in the north-west, GM Vauxhall is there because you have
:30:40. > :30:44.trade unions working in partnership with government and local employees
:30:45. > :30:47.to make sure we kept producing cars. I'm not asking if unions are good or
:30:48. > :30:51.bad, I'm asking if Labour should be closer. You are presupposing, by the
:30:52. > :30:59.tone of your question, that our relationship is a problem. Let's
:31:00. > :31:03.turn to the English question. Why do you need a constitutional
:31:04. > :31:05.conversation where you have to discuss whether English people
:31:06. > :31:10.voting on English matters is unfair? We want to give the regions
:31:11. > :31:13.and cities in England more voice, but let's get it into perspective,
:31:14. > :31:22.we have had a situation where the Scottish people, as desired buying
:31:23. > :31:27.rich people, have to remain part of the UK -- by English people. What is
:31:28. > :31:30.the answer to the question? I don't want to get to a situation where
:31:31. > :31:33.people have voted for solidarity where you have a prime ministers
:31:34. > :31:39.talking about dividing up the UK Parliament. Let me put this point
:31:40. > :31:44.you. Most Scottish voters think it is unfair that Scottish MPs get to
:31:45. > :31:48.vote on English matters. That comes out in Scottish polls. Why don't you
:31:49. > :31:53.see it as unfair? If the Scots see it as unfair, why don't you? This is
:31:54. > :31:56.an age-old conundrum that has been around for 100 years and it's not so
:31:57. > :31:59.simple. You're talking about making a fundamental change to the British
:32:00. > :32:06.constitution on a whim. It's not just an issue, in respect of
:32:07. > :32:11.Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can vote on matters relating to the
:32:12. > :32:15.transport of England and transport is a devolved matter in London. In
:32:16. > :32:18.Wales, there are a number of competencies that Welsh MPs can vote
:32:19. > :32:22.on and they've been devolved to them. So with all of these different
:32:23. > :32:26.votes, you will exclude different MPs? I think the solution is not
:32:27. > :32:29.necessarily to obsess about what is happening between MPs in
:32:30. > :32:34.Westminster. That turns people politics. We need to devolve more. I
:32:35. > :32:39.think we should be giving the cities and regions of England more autonomy
:32:40. > :32:43.in the way that we are doing in Scotland, but I've got to say,
:32:44. > :32:46.Andrew, it's dishonourable and in bad faith for the Prime Minister to
:32:47. > :32:50.now seek to link what he agreed before the referendum to this issue
:32:51. > :32:55.of English votes for English MPs. That is totally dishonourable and in
:32:56. > :32:59.bad faith. You have promised to devolve more tax powers to Scotland.
:33:00. > :33:03.What would they be? This is being decided at the moment. I cannot give
:33:04. > :33:08.you the exact detail of what the tax powers would be. Could you give us a
:33:09. > :33:11.rough idea? There is a White Paper being produced before November and
:33:12. > :33:18.there will be draft legislation put forward in January. Your leader has
:33:19. > :33:21.vowed that this will happen. And you haven't got a policy? You can't tell
:33:22. > :33:26.us what the tax powers will be? I can't tell you on this programme
:33:27. > :33:29.right now. But we have accepted the principle on further devolution on
:33:30. > :33:33.tax, spending on welfare and we will have further details in due course.
:33:34. > :33:38.Your leader promised to maintain the Barnett Formula for the foreseeable
:33:39. > :33:42.future. Why is that fair when it enshrines more per capita spending
:33:43. > :33:45.for Scotland than it does for Wales, which is poorer, and more than many
:33:46. > :33:51.of the poorer regions in England get? Why is that fair? We have said
:33:52. > :33:54.that in terms of looking at go -- local government spending playing
:33:55. > :33:58.out in this Parliament, we have looked at what the government has
:33:59. > :34:00.done which is having already deprived communities having money
:34:01. > :34:05.taken away from them and wealthier communities are getting more. We
:34:06. > :34:12.accept that the Barnett Formula has worked well. How has it works well?
:34:13. > :34:17.There is a cross parliamentary consensus as they don't know what to
:34:18. > :34:23.do about it. Why has it works well, when Wales, clearly loses out? I'm
:34:24. > :34:25.not sure by I accept that when you look at overall underspend --
:34:26. > :34:32.government spending. It is per capita spending in Scotland, which
:34:33. > :34:36.is way ahead of per capita spending in Wales, but per capita incomes in
:34:37. > :34:41.Scotland are way ahead of Wales. Why is that fair Labour politician? We
:34:42. > :34:45.have said we want to have more equitable distribution. You haven't,
:34:46. > :34:49.you have said you will keep the Barnett Formula. I'm not sure
:34:50. > :34:54.necessarily punishing Scotland is the way to go. The way that this
:34:55. > :34:57.debate is going, what message does it send to the Scottish people? I
:34:58. > :35:02.want to be clear, I am delighted with the result we have got. The
:35:03. > :35:06.unity and solidarity where maintaining across the nations of
:35:07. > :35:09.the United Kingdom. All of this separatist talk, setting up
:35:10. > :35:12.different nations of the UK against each other goes completely against
:35:13. > :35:16.what we've all been campaigning for over the last two years, and we
:35:17. > :35:19.shouldn't have any truck with it. Coming onto the announcement on the
:35:20. > :35:25.minimum wage, you would increase it by ?1 50 to take it to ?8, which
:35:26. > :35:29.would be over five years. That is all you are going to do over five
:35:30. > :35:37.years. Have you worked out how much of this increase will be clawed back
:35:38. > :35:43.in taxation and fewer benefits? Work has been done on it. How much? I
:35:44. > :35:49.can't give you an exact figure. The policy pays for itself. The way we
:35:50. > :35:51.have looked at this, we looked at the government figures, and if
:35:52. > :35:56.people are earning more, they would therefore be paying more in income
:35:57. > :36:00.tax and they will be receiving less in benefit and will pay out less in
:36:01. > :36:03.tax credits, so we are confident that this will pay for itself. I'm
:36:04. > :36:08.not asking about the pavement, I'm asking what it means for low paid
:36:09. > :36:12.workers will stop they will get an extra 30p per hour -- about the
:36:13. > :36:17.payment. How much of the 30p to they get to keep? In terms of what they
:36:18. > :36:22.get in the first instance, somebody on the minimum wage now, with our
:36:23. > :36:26.proposal, would get in the region of ?3000 a year more than they are at
:36:27. > :36:35.the moment. That is before tax and benefits. How much do they keep? I
:36:36. > :36:38.cannot give you an exact figure. Why don't you give me an exact figure if
:36:39. > :36:41.you've done the modelling? We are talking about some of the lowest
:36:42. > :36:45.paid people in the country, and I would suggest to you that going down
:36:46. > :36:52.this route, they would face a marginal rate of tax of 50 or 60%
:36:53. > :36:55.and they will not keep most of this increase you are talking about. I
:36:56. > :37:00.don't accept your figures. But you haven't got any of your own. I just
:37:01. > :37:05.don't have any in my head I can give you right now. Don't you think out
:37:06. > :37:08.policies before you announce them? Of course we think our policies
:37:09. > :37:11.before we announce them but we are confident people have more in their
:37:12. > :37:14.pocket and will be better off with the changes proposed, and we are
:37:15. > :37:19.also seeking to incentivise employers to pay a living wage as
:37:20. > :37:23.well. At the end of the day, as I said, the economy is recovering,
:37:24. > :37:26.great, but we know, at the moment, it's still not delivering for a huge
:37:27. > :37:29.number of your viewers and we're determined to do something about it.
:37:30. > :37:33.The status quo is not an option. And even joining me. Twice in three
:37:34. > :37:37.days. You can't have too much of a good thing. I am mad. He said that,
:37:38. > :37:39.not me. It's just gone 11.35, you're
:37:40. > :37:41.watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland
:37:42. > :37:44.who leave us now for Coming up here in twenty minutes,
:37:45. > :37:49.we'll be joined by John Prescott to talk about the challenge facing
:37:50. > :37:52.Labour as their conference starts First though,
:37:53. > :38:01.the Sunday Politics where you are. Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics
:38:02. > :38:03.in Northern Ireland. Well, the people
:38:04. > :38:05.of Scotland have had their say, but there's little doubt that
:38:06. > :38:08.the tail-end of the independence debate lit the touch paper on the
:38:09. > :38:11.explosive question of what's next. Could a potential revolution
:38:12. > :38:14.in devolution mean more fiscal powers for Northern Ireland and,
:38:15. > :38:17.if so, are we ready to take That's what I'll be asking
:38:18. > :38:22.my political guests of the day - Sammy Wilson from the DUP and
:38:23. > :38:26.Sinn Fein's Daithi McKay. As the political focus moves to
:38:27. > :38:29.the Labour Party conference in Manchester,
:38:30. > :38:31.we'll have the latest on Labour's proposals for constitutional reform
:38:32. > :38:35.and what it means for us. Plus, just how worried are Scots
:38:36. > :38:37.about the divisions Sadly, it will be a far more radical
:38:38. > :38:54.movement now. We didn't want that. And we'll hear live
:38:55. > :38:56.from our political correspondent Gareth Gordon in Glasgow later
:38:57. > :39:03.in the programme. So, Scotland voted No by a wide
:39:04. > :39:06.enough margin to lead the SNP leader, Alex Salmond, to stand down
:39:07. > :39:11.as First Minister and party leader. But that was far
:39:12. > :39:13.from an end to the matter. Already a major rift has seemingly
:39:14. > :39:16.opened up between the Conservative and Labour parties on devolving
:39:17. > :39:20.additional powers to Scotland. Mr Salmond has said No voters were
:39:21. > :39:24.?tricked? by a late vow of more devolved powers, and he accused
:39:25. > :39:26.the three main party leaders of ?reneging? on the pledge they made
:39:27. > :39:33.days before Thursday's referendum. Amidst all the uncertainty, what we
:39:34. > :39:36.can be sure is that months of debate about what future devolution in the
:39:37. > :39:40.UK will look like will now follow. With me this morning in our 'guest
:39:41. > :39:44.of the day' chairs to share their thoughts are the DUP's Sammy Wilson
:39:45. > :40:00.and Daithi McKay from Sinn Fein. Daithi McKay, you have been very
:40:01. > :40:04.clear that you want to see more powers devolved to Stormont as part
:40:05. > :40:09.of this constitutional discussion. Your critics say we can't even cope
:40:10. > :40:15.with the powers that we have, the last thing we need is more power. It
:40:16. > :40:18.is important to put this into context. The reason we are facing a
:40:19. > :40:24.lot of difficulty at the moment is that we don't have these powers. The
:40:25. > :40:28.Conservatives did budget for the next four years, and that is why we
:40:29. > :40:34.have the pressures we have on public services. They want is to dovetail
:40:35. > :40:40.into their agenda to do away with the welfare state. It is not about
:40:41. > :40:47.doing away with the welfare system, it is welfare reform, that is
:40:48. > :40:55.different. It is ideological from the Conservatives. The reason why we
:40:56. > :40:59.such a big Yes vote in Scotland is because of that conservative agenda.
:41:00. > :41:09.People here want to see local politicians take responsibility from
:41:10. > :41:20.for local issues. They put the south-east of London is the most
:41:21. > :41:29.important place. People want us to see -- people want to see us taking
:41:30. > :41:34.those decisions. Sinn Fein will even help us do the things we have
:41:35. > :41:37.promised already. We would be mad to devolve more powers to the Northern
:41:38. > :41:43.Ireland assembly, even if it was the right thing to do, which it is not.
:41:44. > :41:48.Why is it not fundamentally the right thing to do? Two reasons.
:41:49. > :41:53.Daithi McKay has said that by having more taxation powers delivered to
:41:54. > :42:00.Northern Ireland we could get out of having to do the welfare reform
:42:01. > :42:04.cuts. The fact of the matter is any taxation powers we have asked for in
:42:05. > :42:10.Northern Ireland have not been to increase taxes, it has been to
:42:11. > :42:15.decrease taxes. Pretty nice saying that he would love to have income
:42:16. > :42:18.tax devolved so that we could dip our hands deeper into peoples
:42:19. > :42:25.pockets and take more income tax of them? Is that the plan? In terms of
:42:26. > :42:32.taxation, in terms of economic growth, we always underperform.
:42:33. > :42:36.Because the taxation rates here are not set. We would like to see the
:42:37. > :42:44.abolition of the airport tax duty for example. That would all create
:42:45. > :42:50.jobs and create more tax revenues. Corporation tax, all these taxes are
:42:51. > :42:54.set for Britain. Wendy said he would we will see greater economic growth,
:42:55. > :42:59.the creation of more jobs, the better outcomes in terms of public
:43:00. > :43:03.services. You have the capacity to charge people for water. That is a
:43:04. > :43:12.way of generating income. Nobody is prepared to do that because it might
:43:13. > :43:18.be unpopular. That is exactly the point I am making. If Daithi McKay
:43:19. > :43:23.wants to see more tax powers devolved to Northern Ireland, let
:43:24. > :43:29.them be honest with people, which taxes would he put up to finance all
:43:30. > :43:35.the fantasy projects that Sinn Fein wish to have? Nobody has ever raised
:43:36. > :43:39.their hand to bid up attacks in Northern Ireland and this idea that
:43:40. > :43:46.every tax cut can be self financing is ludicrous. I think anybody who
:43:47. > :43:57.knows anything about taxation policy will know it is not true. Anybody he
:43:58. > :44:02.has responsibility for taxation matters should get about increasing
:44:03. > :44:07.them in some areas and decreasing them and others. The reason Sammy is
:44:08. > :44:14.not interested in this is because he is a Unionist, is because he wants
:44:15. > :44:21.to kowtow to the British government in advance of the West and
:44:22. > :44:26.selection. It is because I have some economic common sense.
:44:27. > :44:28.So, just how deep are the divisions uncovered
:44:29. > :44:32.There was minor trouble involving Yes and No supporters in Glasgow
:44:33. > :44:34.A loyalist element is said to have been involved.
:44:35. > :44:37.And now there are fears Scotland could be heading for problems
:44:38. > :44:39.around the nature and scale of devolution, perhaps more
:44:40. > :44:42.Our political correspondent Gareth Gordon sent this report
:44:43. > :45:03.We have one as a nation. The whole world watched Scottish people
:45:04. > :45:07.celebrate further freedom. If political passion is your thing, you
:45:08. > :45:11.have come to the right place. George Square in the heart of Glasgow, the
:45:12. > :45:25.city that voted to leave the union to the annoyance of summer. --
:45:26. > :45:30.some. Please were the scenes in the Square on Friday night. Rival
:45:31. > :45:35.crowds, a few arrests, but no serious trouble. The referendum
:45:36. > :45:39.itself may be over but it is pretty clear in Glasgow at least that the
:45:40. > :45:45.debate is just beginning and that many of the issues which have been
:45:46. > :45:53.opened up are still very raw. I do worry about the aftermath. Whether
:45:54. > :45:56.we will be able to find reconciliation between the two
:45:57. > :46:01.camps, if it will create long-term divisions. Hopefully last I got the
:46:02. > :46:07.steam out of the argument and people will settle down. We know that
:46:08. > :46:19.Scotland in Glasgow, things can be very polarised. The hopes of
:46:20. > :46:26.independence gone? It is just the beginning. Sadly, it will be a far
:46:27. > :46:33.more radical movement now. Believe me, that is what is going to happen.
:46:34. > :46:37.We didn't want that. I counted David lives in Edinburgh but is originally
:46:38. > :46:43.from Northern Ireland. He also says that the referendum opened up
:46:44. > :46:47.divisions. I voted No because fundamentally a don't agree with
:46:48. > :46:50.nationalism, I see it as an outdated concept not belonging to the
:46:51. > :46:56.century. On top of that, the economic arguments put forward were
:46:57. > :47:02.implausible, in my view. It has been very unsettling. The campaign for
:47:03. > :47:06.the most part has been good-natured, but it has gone on for such a long
:47:07. > :47:12.time and over the last month it became particularly acrimonious and
:47:13. > :47:30.divisive, so I'm glad it has come to an end. Ash performed to help people
:47:31. > :47:38.when it came to Northern Ireland deciding. The terms of the same, but
:47:39. > :47:44.the meaning behind those terms are very different. There have been a
:47:45. > :47:54.few unhelpful comments by certain people on the No side calling
:47:55. > :47:57.internationalist movement. Don't get me wrong, there are people who are
:47:58. > :48:02.very much nationalists in the movement, but it has been glossed
:48:03. > :48:08.over the amount of support that has been from people from Northern
:48:09. > :48:16.Ireland, Wales and England, that is a civic nationalism. It is about
:48:17. > :48:19.democracy, not about identity. It rejected independence, but Scotland
:48:20. > :48:21.and its counterparts in the rest of the UK have more decision still to
:48:22. > :48:22.make. Gareth Gordon joins me now
:48:23. > :48:24.from Glasgow. Senior politicians from
:48:25. > :48:26.across Scotland will gather in St Giles' Cathedral in Edinburgh
:48:27. > :48:28.this morning .The show of unity comes despite
:48:29. > :48:30.continuing disagreement over how the process of devolving more powers
:48:31. > :48:39.to Scotland should be handled. But as we saw in
:48:40. > :48:54.your report people are worried about This was probably the most tourist
:48:55. > :49:00.debate we have seen in these islands for decades. People were energised
:49:01. > :49:05.to get their names on the voting register and vote. If you 5% of the
:49:06. > :49:10.population went to vote. It was a major debate. You can't expect one
:49:11. > :49:15.of those polling stations close for that old to be put back in a box.
:49:16. > :49:19.When we go onto the streets with camera to talk about politics,
:49:20. > :49:25.people often shy away from us. Yesterday George Square and almost
:49:26. > :49:36.had to beat them. At 1.I had to say, for my cute! Everybody had something
:49:37. > :49:42.to say. -- at one stage. I think this debate will go on for a long
:49:43. > :49:47.time to come. The divisions have not gone away. You had people from both
:49:48. > :49:52.sides wanting to talk to you. It remains a divided city. Will it be
:49:53. > :50:01.able to park that division and move on. Glasgow, let's remember, on
:50:02. > :50:16.Thursday devoted to leave the UK, as did Don B. -- Dundee. Senior Labour
:50:17. > :50:20.politicians today have been warning that the vote cannot be ignored and
:50:21. > :50:26.the promises that were made cannot be put back in the box and forgotten
:50:27. > :50:30.about. The West of Scotland is divided along religious lines,
:50:31. > :50:36.sectarian lines. You a bit of that, night in George Square on Friday. It
:50:37. > :50:43.wasn't too bad, we don't want overstated, but those tensions have
:50:44. > :50:46.always been below the surface. People are not surprised that that
:50:47. > :50:50.happened, perhaps they are surprised it didn't happen before. They are
:50:51. > :50:54.worried that it might happen again. What has happened in Scotland as a
:50:55. > :50:58.catalyst for a much broader discussion about UK wide
:50:59. > :51:02.devolution. We will be talking about that later in the programme. To what
:51:03. > :51:06.extent are people there are aware of the fact that in Northern Ireland
:51:07. > :51:10.and people in Wales and across England are looking in on this
:51:11. > :51:20.debate and expecting to be a part of it? It has certainly been mentioned.
:51:21. > :51:25.All politics is local. The Scots are pretty obsessed by their own
:51:26. > :51:29.situation here, more so than what is happening in England and the rest of
:51:30. > :51:39.the UK. I think some of them are looking on quite suspiciously. Some
:51:40. > :51:43.people are sceptical about what is going on. Alex Salmond is claiming
:51:44. > :51:48.already that the voters here have been tricked. Whether that is true
:51:49. > :51:55.or not we will see in the coming days and weeks. The quiet majority,
:51:56. > :51:59.the people who voted to remain in the UK, not all of them want more
:52:00. > :52:11.powers for Scotland. I think the political establishment in Scotland
:52:12. > :52:18.will expect that to happen. Sammy Wilson, clearly people are still
:52:19. > :52:21.continuing to debate the issue of Scottish independence on the street
:52:22. > :52:26.even though the vote is over and there was a clear margin against it.
:52:27. > :52:30.That 45% of people who wanted independence and haven't got it will
:52:31. > :52:35.not go away. There is a future constitutional discussion to cool
:52:36. > :52:42.place -- to take place. How do you put the genie back in the box? Adam
:52:43. > :52:51.think you can. The debate got better as went on. We sought the nasty side
:52:52. > :52:55.of nationalism. Individual voters were afraid to put up notices.
:52:56. > :53:04.Businessmen being intimidated and told they would be looked at after
:53:05. > :53:13.the vote was over and so on. Relatively speaking, it was a pretty
:53:14. > :53:18.good democratic exchange. They won't minor issues. The nasty side of
:53:19. > :53:22.nationalism will leave a legacy. The single issue like that it is easy to
:53:23. > :53:27.motivate people, rather than with the general run of politics,
:53:28. > :53:32.especially when it is identified as party politics. If the debate on
:53:33. > :53:40.that particular issue is going to continue. I think it will be
:53:41. > :53:44.divisive. Even with the way in which Alex Salmond is trying to keep it
:53:45. > :53:51.going with pointing to UK politicians and saying they will
:53:52. > :53:54.renege on their promises. We haven't even had Westminster sitting against
:53:55. > :53:58.a hike and he said that? There is clear blue water between what the Ed
:53:59. > :54:03.saying and the Prime Minister is saying. Ed Miliband is taking the
:54:04. > :54:08.opportunity to have a poke at the Conservatives on this. There seems
:54:09. > :54:14.to be really a difference in the timing of getting things three.
:54:15. > :54:21.Those timings will be important. Daithi McKay, can you put the genie
:54:22. > :54:24.back in the box? What Sammy has outlined is that the scaremongering
:54:25. > :54:28.will continue even after the resultant Scotland. Scotland had a
:54:29. > :54:34.great democratic debate and I would love to see the same here, a mature
:54:35. > :54:37.debate with little to no scaremongering and people can
:54:38. > :54:41.empower themselves as opposed to leaving the politics to the
:54:42. > :54:45.politicians. Are you talking for a border poll? Yes, we would like to
:54:46. > :54:52.see one. How would that be anything other than another sideshow? It
:54:53. > :54:59.would lead to a public debate, as to where our future with life. How
:55:00. > :55:01.would that be helpful? We can't resolve welfare reform, things like
:55:02. > :55:06.flags, parades and the past, why would we want to start a right about
:55:07. > :55:10.a border poll? The reason why we can't resolve those issues is
:55:11. > :55:17.because there is British government interference in those issues. What
:55:18. > :55:27.we need to do is have that border poll so people can have that debate.
:55:28. > :55:36.No border poll as far as you are concerned? It is her diversionary
:55:37. > :55:40.tactic by Sinn Fein. Their incompetence in the Assembly is
:55:41. > :55:45.stripping them of everyday. A border poll would be a good way of
:55:46. > :55:48.diverting attention from their own incompetence. He should bear in mind
:55:49. > :55:50.that in recent polls even 25% of the room supporters say that they
:55:51. > :55:55.wouldn't support a united Ireland. Now, with a look at the rest
:55:56. > :56:11.of the political week in 60 seconds, Ian Paisley was buried in County
:56:12. > :56:15.Down after a private service at his home. In a newspaper interview his
:56:16. > :56:21.son described his father's critics as pygmies in his shadow. Sinn Fein
:56:22. > :56:24.protested as Drew Nelson became Deputy Chief Constable saying the
:56:25. > :56:27.selection process was flawed. Belfast councillor as well as Drew
:56:28. > :56:29.Nelson became Deputy Chief Constable saying the selection process was
:56:30. > :56:36.flawed. Belfast councillors were asked to take a. There is no
:56:37. > :56:43.appetite for its. The executive received a gift from an American of
:56:44. > :56:49.?58 million to promote education plans here. He wants to see peace
:56:50. > :56:54.and do that through his giving in order to bring about change. After
:56:55. > :56:58.Scotland said No, difference of opinion for more devolved powers for
:56:59. > :57:04.Stormont. Things have changed utterly and we need the British
:57:05. > :57:05.government to deliver. If you have those powers, you can't have
:57:06. > :57:09.deadlock in your executive. So, no sooner is the independence
:57:10. > :57:12.referendum over than the focus shifts to the next big electoral
:57:13. > :57:14.test, the General Election, which The Labour Party is first out of
:57:15. > :57:21.the blocks with its party conference Stephen Walker is there and when I
:57:22. > :57:26.caught up with him earlier I asked him about the mood among delegates
:57:27. > :57:41.after last week's Scottish vote. I think it is a mixture of delight
:57:42. > :57:44.and relief. People here are delighted that Scotland has voted to
:57:45. > :57:52.remain part of the UK, delighted the way that it went, but there is
:57:53. > :57:56.relief because a number of days back in April came out saying that the
:57:57. > :58:01.Yes were ahead. There were ahead. Scotland would the union. There is a
:58:02. > :58:06.fundamental understanding that many people in Scotland have voted for
:58:07. > :58:08.change. People have voted for more powers for Scotland and the need to
:58:09. > :58:13.get on the bits agenda revolving devolution. There is an
:58:14. > :58:19.understanding here is that there is a lot of work still to be done. UK
:58:20. > :58:25.politics has become consumed with the future of devolution. Will it
:58:26. > :58:29.dominate the agenda this week? It will. The whole issue of devolution
:58:30. > :58:34.and constitutional change, well it is something that interests
:58:35. > :58:38.journalists and academics, it is not often interest normal people. It is
:58:39. > :58:42.now something that is on the front page of the newspapers. This issue
:58:43. > :58:47.of devolution will dominate this conference. People will be talking
:58:48. > :58:51.about what kind of powers we expect to see in Wales, Northern Ireland
:58:52. > :58:55.and Scotland. There is a fundamental difference between Labour and the
:58:56. > :58:58.Conservatives. David Cameron give a press conference in Downing Street
:58:59. > :59:04.last Friday morning when he talked about linking changes in Scotland to
:59:05. > :59:08.what Scottish MPs can do at Westminster. Labour have a
:59:09. > :59:12.completely different position, they want change to go ahead and not
:59:13. > :59:16.linked to this whole issue of Scottish MPs at Westminster. Labour
:59:17. > :59:19.want this constitutional convention. There is a fundamental difference
:59:20. > :59:23.between Labour and the Conservatives. The SNP are accusing
:59:24. > :59:29.the Westminster parties of reneging on the deal. The whole issue of
:59:30. > :59:32.devolution is not on the front page. In the meantime, we'll Northern
:59:33. > :59:37.Ireland featured to any great extent in the conference agenda? I think it
:59:38. > :59:43.will. Because of a direct result of what has been happening in Scotland.
:59:44. > :59:46.Northern Ireland is on the agenda every year but because of what has
:59:47. > :59:51.happened there is a greater impetus. Tomorrow we will have a
:59:52. > :59:55.speech from Ivan Lewis, the Shadow Secretary of State, and he will
:59:56. > :59:59.mention Scotland. Then this whole ongoing debate about what kind of
:00:00. > :00:05.powers should be devolved to places like Belfast, Edinburgh and Wales.
:00:06. > :00:12.Because of what has happened in Scotland, the whole issue of
:00:13. > :00:15.devolution will be on the agenda. Sammy Wilson, if we have a
:00:16. > :00:21.constitutional debate about devolution, does that mean that you
:00:22. > :00:24.could go back as an MP who cannot discuss certain issues on the floor
:00:25. > :00:29.of the House of Commons? I think it is a possibility. I have some
:00:30. > :00:32.sympathy with the argument that where there is legislation which
:00:33. > :00:36.affects only England, why should I as someone has already got those
:00:37. > :00:42.powers devolved to Northern Ireland have a say in its? It is not always
:00:43. > :00:47.clear-cut, of course. Let's take HS2, the real three England. That
:00:48. > :00:55.has implications for the whole of the United Kingdom, shoes should I
:00:56. > :00:58.have a say on that? Is a matter for our MPs, we don't take our seats.
:00:59. > :01:09.Welcome back the to Labour conference, where we're joined
:01:10. > :01:13.by the latest hot new stand-up comedian on the Manchester circuit.
:01:14. > :01:18.I speak of course of former Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott.
:01:19. > :01:20.In between giving tub-thumping speeches to rally
:01:21. > :01:23.the party faithful this week, he's appearing at the Comedy Store.
:01:24. > :01:26.He was also of course the man behind the last attempt to solve
:01:27. > :01:38.Our political panel is with me as well. John, we have got Scottish
:01:39. > :01:40.votes for Scottish laws, and more Scottish votes for Scottish laws,
:01:41. > :01:46.why not English votes for English laws? That's an English parliament
:01:47. > :01:50.in a major constitutional change and that is what has started. I
:01:51. > :01:54.certainly don't agree with that. I campaign for powers to be given to
:01:55. > :01:57.the regions. When I first tested it in the Northeast, I lost. Why?
:01:58. > :02:02.Because they said they were not the same powers you are giving to
:02:03. > :02:09.Scotland. So, basically, we must do that, decentralised, not just with a
:02:10. > :02:13.Westminster Parliament. As you know, in 32 years I produce the
:02:14. > :02:18.alternative. You've kept that for 32 years? I took it off my shelf and
:02:19. > :02:24.everybody was talking about it now, but they weren't in 1982. This was
:02:25. > :02:30.my five plan. 200 meetings all around the country -- five-year
:02:31. > :02:34.plan. You wrote this morning, not 35 years ago, that this was a plot to
:02:35. > :02:37.turn Westminster into a Tory dominated English parliament. But if
:02:38. > :02:43.that is how England had voted, it's not a plot, it's democracy. You can
:02:44. > :02:47.get reform in a more federal structure, and even English
:02:48. > :02:50.parliament does fit into the federal structure and that is what the
:02:51. > :02:55.Liberals say, but you need a fairer representation. It might be quite
:02:56. > :02:59.radical, and we could get rid of the Lord's, and have representation in
:03:00. > :03:06.the region there. It can't be done in two weeks. Alex Salmond, he's
:03:07. > :03:08.assuming he has been sold out, and it was less than a week ago they
:03:09. > :03:14.remain the announcement. We have to get it carried out will stop but
:03:15. > :03:19.don't connect it to the English parliament that fixes it in their
:03:20. > :03:22.favour. It may be pretty low politics from David Cameron to come
:03:23. > :03:28.up with something that was not in the vowel -- a bow on the front page
:03:29. > :03:31.of the daily record, but if they do not agree with what he said at the
:03:32. > :03:35.time of the general election, he will say two in which voters, if you
:03:36. > :03:39.want real protection in England, vote Conservative, and if you want
:03:40. > :03:43.Scottish MPs deciding on your level of taxation, vote Labour. He is
:03:44. > :03:47.scared to death of UKIP may have been saying it for a while. In the
:03:48. > :03:51.constitutional changes have to see what is fair and equitable, the same
:03:52. > :03:55.with the Barnett fallen -- formula. But what you have to do is get a
:03:56. > :03:59.fair system. It takes time to discuss it. I was doing a 32 years
:04:00. > :04:03.ago and nobody wanted to know. We had better start a debate, and don't
:04:04. > :04:09.mixed up the constitutional type of English parliament with what we are
:04:10. > :04:14.promising in Scotland. It is about trust and politics. So the turnout
:04:15. > :04:19.of the north-east regional assembly and they voted against it. The
:04:20. > :04:22.turnout that the police and crime commissioners was low. How'd you get
:04:23. > :04:26.people interested in the process and it doesn't feel like a conversation
:04:27. > :04:29.in smoky rooms and you go back to British people and tell them what
:04:30. > :04:34.you decided? If you look at the turnout in Scotland whether they
:04:35. > :04:37.were interested in, now it is phenomenally interesting. It is
:04:38. > :04:40.about real power, having real influence. What they said to me in
:04:41. > :04:44.the north-east, they said we know you have an idea for devolution and
:04:45. > :04:47.you will give us assemblies but it doesn't have the power of Scotland,
:04:48. > :04:51.but now we are talking about equity, similar distribution of
:04:52. > :04:54.power and similar resources. The English people are entitled to that.
:04:55. > :05:00.They have been robbed of it for too long. Labour has long struggled with
:05:01. > :05:04.what it should do over devolving power to the regions and you came up
:05:05. > :05:08.with regional assemblies. Ed Miliband has a different idea of
:05:09. > :05:12.city regions. Aren't they the same idea of yours but without a
:05:13. > :05:15.democratic accountability? Can we really trust the greater region of
:05:16. > :05:20.Manchester or Birmingham to deliver if there is not the same kind of
:05:21. > :05:25.democratic link with the people? I live in whole, and it stops on the
:05:26. > :05:30.boundary of the Pennines -- the city of Hull. We have city regions from
:05:31. > :05:34.Labour because I failed in the north-east to get the assemblies in,
:05:35. > :05:38.and now we have to look at those options. Do you work through city
:05:39. > :05:41.regions? Mainly in the north, I might say. Even the federal
:05:42. > :05:44.structure they talk about my be in the North or Midlands with
:05:45. > :05:49.Birmingham, but there are a number of options and that is where I
:05:50. > :05:53.believe that what the White Paper should do is to put those options
:05:54. > :05:57.in. Instead of having to put them together, state what you want to do
:05:58. > :06:00.in the English regions. Leave it to the legislation, which is what will
:06:01. > :06:04.happen with the Scottish, and once you've agreed it, you do it after.
:06:05. > :06:08.You have to start the radical debate about giving the English regions,
:06:09. > :06:12.not centralised in London, but decentralised. Do you need to have a
:06:13. > :06:18.separate English parliament? Wouldn't it just satisfy the English
:06:19. > :06:22.if you simply said to MPs, when it's in English matter in the House of
:06:23. > :06:26.Commons, stop interfering? I would disagree with that. I would say put
:06:27. > :06:30.the option in the White Paper. The White Paper seems to be talking
:06:31. > :06:33.about Scotland. If you don't put the commitments to what you want to do
:06:34. > :06:39.with the English regions, people might say I'm not supporting that.
:06:40. > :06:42.Put the framework in the White Paper, but a different timetable.
:06:43. > :06:46.Devolution in this country has been to a different timetable, whether
:06:47. > :06:50.it's Wales, Northern Ireland. Start looking fundamentally at it and the
:06:51. > :06:57.Labour Party should be leading the debate. Let's come the no campaign
:06:58. > :07:01.lost Glasgow. The cradle of British socialism. -- let's come to
:07:02. > :07:05.something that happened with the referendum as the no campaign lost
:07:06. > :07:09.Glasgow. Is it a sign that the Labour Party are finding it hard to
:07:10. > :07:13.what -- hold on to their traditional working class vote question mark its
:07:14. > :07:18.different in Manchester. They would say it is a message about
:07:19. > :07:26.decentralisation. If we change the message a bit maybe. We have been
:07:27. > :07:30.thinking that now it is that either the Labour Party to recognise it is
:07:31. > :07:34.not the old message and old areas that will win it. I remember
:07:35. > :07:39.covering the 1997 referendum in Scotland and you gave a tub thumping
:07:40. > :07:42.speech in a big hall in Hamilton and you really connected. Obviously it
:07:43. > :07:45.was a different referendum because that was about a parliament, not
:07:46. > :07:50.independence and Alex Salmond was on your side, but you, and Ingush MP,
:07:51. > :07:54.an English minister, connected to the core Labour voters in a way that
:07:55. > :08:03.Ed Miliband is failing to do -- an English MP. You make a fair point.
:08:04. > :08:10.In the big rally, I had to point out I was Welsh. Enough of this. Get on
:08:11. > :08:15.with it. What I was saying there was that I supported you, as I did for
:08:16. > :08:18.30 odd years when Labour MPs were against any thinker Scotland. I
:08:19. > :08:21.support you, but I expect you to come in with your Scottish MPs and
:08:22. > :08:26.make sure the English get their share of the powers and resources
:08:27. > :08:32.and that is what that speech was about, and by God, it's as relevant
:08:33. > :08:36.today as it was then. I haven't got any Scottish MPs, I live in
:08:37. > :08:44.Knightsbridge. Did you get the vote? No. What would you have done? I
:08:45. > :08:51.can't tell you. You would have voted yes, come on. I'm interested. What
:08:52. > :08:58.do you want to hear from the speech by Ed Miliband? People are wondering
:08:59. > :09:01.about where Labour stands. There are many issues we have flown around,
:09:02. > :09:08.and we've done the discussion just now. What he has got to do where he
:09:09. > :09:12.started off on the minimum wage. You are trying to deal with those left
:09:13. > :09:16.behind. Those are the bottom. That is the Labour message. The National
:09:17. > :09:19.Health Service is our creation and we have to say it will be saved. If
:09:20. > :09:23.you can save all of these bankers with all the money and say you
:09:24. > :09:29.haven't got the money for the NHS, say where we stand. That will be the
:09:30. > :09:32.priority. The third one, housing. I have had a revolutionary idea that
:09:33. > :09:35.you can buy a house without a deposit and without the interest or
:09:36. > :09:41.paying the stamp duty, and you buy it by rent. The government gives
:09:42. > :09:46.?150 billion guaranteed housing for up to 600,000. Get down to ordinary
:09:47. > :09:49.people who can use their rent to buy the house. It's happening in the
:09:50. > :09:52.north-east. Why are they not listening to you? You have said more
:09:53. > :09:57.to connect with ordinary people in three minutes than we will probably
:09:58. > :10:01.hear in an hour. I've been telling them, made, and we have a commission
:10:02. > :10:06.coming out. People don't want commissions, they want action. I
:10:07. > :10:10.say, I know what we do, housing, health, the people. That is our
:10:11. > :10:15.language. That is why we are Labour. That a lot of people run away. I
:10:16. > :10:19.think in Glasgow, they wondered about that. If you turn up on the
:10:20. > :10:23.same three platforms, and I know it's a critical thing to say, they
:10:24. > :10:28.think in Scotland it is a coalition. I don't like coalitions. It looks
:10:29. > :10:33.like a coalition, didn't it? Maybe it was saved because Rupert Murdoch
:10:34. > :10:39.started the The Times about the polls and he couldn't even get the
:10:40. > :10:42.sun to say that they wanted. We haven't got time. I wondered how
:10:43. > :10:48.long it would take is to get to repot Murdoch. You beat the record.
:10:49. > :10:52.-- to Rupert Murdoch. Labour is quite behind on the economy, and
:10:53. > :10:55.people are looking at Labour, trying to work out if they can trust you to
:10:56. > :11:02.the stewards of the economy given 2010. Under Labour 's plans there is
:11:03. > :11:07.20 billion of cuts to make in the next Parliament. Will we hear
:11:08. > :11:12.anything about that? It is about the proportion of debt to GDP. I know it
:11:13. > :11:17.sounds historic, but our debt when we came in in 1997 was a proportion
:11:18. > :11:24.of GDP, and you must know this, and that was less than Thatcher's. Why
:11:25. > :11:27.did we get done on debt? You guys run around saying a lot about it,
:11:28. > :11:34.but the fact is it was worse under Thatcher. Thatcher is now seen as a
:11:35. > :11:38.hero. If you look at the debt, it is still a problem. Gordon Brown did an
:11:39. > :11:42.awful lot to solve those problems, but they were still left with us.
:11:43. > :11:46.What we have to have is a sensible discussion like we had on devolution
:11:47. > :11:50.and now we are talking about finances. Let's look at the public
:11:51. > :11:53.sector debt and the price we pay. We need to be putting the record
:11:54. > :11:57.straight. The problem is they tell me, John, we have to look to the
:11:58. > :12:00.future not the past. We are getting screwed on the past and we have to
:12:01. > :12:07.change it and perhaps Gordon Brown coming in could do something.
:12:08. > :12:11.Finishing on the future, when we did a poll of the Labour candidates, you
:12:12. > :12:15.were watching on the big screen, when it came up that their favourite
:12:16. > :12:26.to succeed Ed Miliband was Yvette Cooper, why did you shout no! That
:12:27. > :12:28.is alive. -- alive. -- that is not true. I know resistance is not
:12:29. > :12:45.strong. What did that mean? You can't get away with anything at
:12:46. > :12:50.a Conference, John. I was dropping comments them to pick up everywhere,
:12:51. > :12:56.I do not wear -- nowhere they got that one from. Good to have you
:12:57. > :13:00.back. Round of applause for former Deputy Prime Minister. That's it for
:13:01. > :13:02.today. Don't applaud them, they are useless.
:13:03. > :13:07.my guests. I'll be back here at Labour conference for the Daily
:13:08. > :13:12.11:30am tomorrow when we'll bring you live coverage of the speech by
:13:13. > :13:17.We're here all week, and next Sunday you can find us in Birmingham for
:13:18. > :13:24.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.