:00:40. > :00:44.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:45. > :00:46.Donald Trump says he wants to do a "powerful" trade deal
:00:47. > :00:50.Theresa May says other countries are ready to talk too.
:00:51. > :00:53.But could the transitional deal with the EU that some are pushing
:00:54. > :00:55.for scupper the Prime Minister's plans?
:00:56. > :01:00.Having defied expectation in last month's general election,
:01:01. > :01:02.are Jeremy Corbyn and his allies about to purge the party
:01:03. > :01:10.The deadliest fire in London since the Second World War has
:01:11. > :01:12.devastated a community and shocked Britain, but will the political
:01:13. > :01:14.storm that's blown up in its aftermath help uncover
:01:15. > :01:19.And coming up here: Deadlock at Stormont.
:01:20. > :01:21.What will it take to get the institutions back?
:01:22. > :01:24.We'll hear from the former Secretary of State, Peter Hain.
:01:25. > :01:26.Plus - is all the political uncertainty
:01:27. > :01:44.impacting on economic growth? on breaking away from the capital.
:01:45. > :01:51.If we are darking today we apoll jierks it could be a power cut or
:01:52. > :01:55.the BBC is trying to save money with its fuel bill! Assuming you can see
:01:56. > :01:55.them... And with me - as always -
:01:56. > :01:59.for TV's second most keenly watched on-screen relationships
:02:00. > :02:00.after Love Island, the Sunday Politics panel -
:02:01. > :02:02.Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer They'll be tweeting
:02:03. > :02:08.throughout the programme. So - Donald Trump says a trade
:02:09. > :02:11.deal with UK could be Theresa May says that
:02:12. > :02:14.other world leaders, including those of China,
:02:15. > :02:17.India and Japan, are also keen to do President and PM were speaking at
:02:18. > :02:21.the G20 summit of the world's major President and PM were speaking at
:02:22. > :02:25.the G20 summit of the world's major But could the transitional
:02:26. > :02:28.deal that some want, that would keep the UK in the EU's
:02:29. > :02:31.single market and Customs Union for several years after exit,
:02:32. > :02:34.put paid to those plans? Here's what the man likely to be
:02:35. > :02:37.the next Lib Dem leader - Vince Cable - told the Marr show
:02:38. > :02:44.earlier. I'm beginning to think that
:02:45. > :02:46.Brexit may never happen, The problems are so enormous,
:02:47. > :02:53.the divisions within the two major parties are so enormous,
:02:54. > :02:58.I can see a scenario We're joined now from
:02:59. > :03:06.Shropshire by the former Conservative Cabinet Minister
:03:07. > :03:12.and leading Brexit Ogise, it could be a power cut or
:03:13. > :03:14.the BBC is trying to save money with its fuel bill! Assuming you can see
:03:15. > :03:17.them... Good morning to you, Vince Cable says that he thinks Brexit may
:03:18. > :03:22.now not happen, what do you say to that? What is new? Vince Cable
:03:23. > :03:27.always wanted to stay in the European Union, he is chucking
:03:28. > :03:32.buckets of water round, we had a huge vote last year, we had an
:03:33. > :03:37.enormous vote in the House of Commons, 494 votes to trigger
:03:38. > :03:42.Article 50, we had an election campaign in which the two main
:03:43. > :03:47.parties took 85% of the vote they back the speech and leaving the
:03:48. > :03:51.customs union and the single market and the ECJ and Vince Cable's party
:03:52. > :03:55.went down in votes as did the other parties that want to stay in the
:03:56. > :04:00.European Union. So Vince is behind history, we are going to leave, we
:04:01. > :04:04.are on target, Michael Gove triggered leaving the 1964 London
:04:05. > :04:10.convention so we can take back control of the seas and bring back a
:04:11. > :04:13.sane fishing policy and more important getting environmental
:04:14. > :04:19.gained in our marine environment, so... You think we are still heading
:04:20. > :04:23.for the exit but Mrs May called the election because she wanted a
:04:24. > :04:27.mandate for her version of Brexit. She didn't get it. Surely you can't
:04:28. > :04:31.just continue with business as usual? Well, we have been over the
:04:32. > :04:38.election, we did not get the number of sees we wanted but on votes, we
:04:39. > :04:42.got 13.7 million, that is more than the great Blair landslide. You had
:04:43. > :04:49.an overall majority and you lost it. That is a fact. I said that. We know
:04:50. > :04:54.that. So you didn't get the mandate. We got the vote! We got a lot votes
:04:55. > :04:57.and so did the Labour Party. You know we are in a Parliamentary
:04:58. > :05:01.system where what matters is the number of seats you get in the
:05:02. > :05:04.Commons, you know enough about the British constitution to know a that
:05:05. > :05:08.is what determines the mandate. Not the number of votes, we are not a
:05:09. > :05:13.Presidential system. I am First Minister throughly wear
:05:14. > :05:17.of that. 85% of the election voted for parties that wanted to leave. If
:05:18. > :05:21.you take votes in the Commons last week on the Queen's Speech not a
:05:22. > :05:26.single Conservative MP abstained or voted against and the Labour Party
:05:27. > :05:34.unwisely, Chuka Umunna triggered and amendment wanting us to stay in the
:05:35. > :05:39.customs union and got hammered. So, I am clear that we have to deliver
:05:40. > :05:45.this, much the most important point in all this, is if we do not deliver
:05:46. > :05:52.a proper Brexit which means leaving the single market, leaving the
:05:53. > :05:56.customs union and the jurisdiction of the ECJ, there will be appalling
:05:57. > :06:00.damage to the integrity of the whole establishment. Not just political,
:06:01. > :06:06.you, the media, and the judicial establishment. Some would say that
:06:07. > :06:11.damage has already been done in other area, let us look at the
:06:12. > :06:14.detail. Under Article 50 Britain leaves the EU in 20 months which
:06:15. > :06:20.means the deal will have to be done in 15 or 16 months to allow for
:06:21. > :06:25.people to approve it in the various Parliaments and so son. Progress has
:06:26. > :06:30.the been glacial. We have only just begun. Why should there not be a
:06:31. > :06:35.transitional deal that keep some of the current arrangements in place to
:06:36. > :06:42.mitigate this falling off a cliff? As Liam said in the Commons, Liam
:06:43. > :06:47.who? Liam Fox, this should be one of the easiest ever deals to conclude,
:06:48. > :06:51.because already, we have zero tariffs, already we have complete
:06:52. > :06:59.conformty on standards and already, those who are negotiating with us
:07:00. > :07:03.have an enormous surplus, the Germans sold an enormous number of
:07:04. > :07:10.cars, so that is the basis on which, if you look at Nafta... We haven't
:07:11. > :07:19.even started talking about free trade yet. That is not on the agenda
:07:20. > :07:24.yet. Let me finish. If you look at Nafta, that took 14 months, we are
:07:25. > :07:30.starting on a basis of mutual recognition of all our standard and
:07:31. > :07:34.zero tariffs so yes, there will be an implementation period but it is
:07:35. > :07:38.very very important politically this is concluded fast, as a huge
:07:39. > :07:42.economic imperative as well, because it is uncertainty about this that
:07:43. > :07:46.will damage future investment and job, the quicker we get on with it
:07:47. > :07:51.and we know where we are going and we can reach out to the world, we
:07:52. > :07:55.can take advantage of the fact stated on the European Commission
:07:56. > :08:00.website that 9 a 5% of the world's growth is going to come from outside
:08:01. > :08:06.European Union, which is what we are seeing, we have seen sales go from
:08:07. > :08:12.61% to 43% and it is tumbling to 43%. We cannot take advantage of
:08:13. > :08:19.these wonderful opportunities in the wider world... Why not? Why not?
:08:20. > :08:25.Germany does. Because they can't conclude free trade deals. Germany
:08:26. > :08:28.runs a balance of payment surplus, it finds it possible to trade with
:08:29. > :08:34.the rest of the EU and with the rest of the world. It has a bigger
:08:35. > :08:40.surplus than China, if Germany can do both why can't we? They can't.
:08:41. > :08:48.They can't conclude deal, we Trump wants to do a deal with us. You saw
:08:49. > :08:52.Theresa May sitting down with the economies of the future, India,
:08:53. > :09:00.China, South Korea, these are all longing to do more business with us,
:09:01. > :09:03.we can only do that once we are out of the customs union, that is vital
:09:04. > :09:07.for the future of this country, that is where the future growth is. The
:09:08. > :09:12.business in this country says we should stay in the single market and
:09:13. > :09:22.the customs union, at least through a transition period. Does that count
:09:23. > :09:26.for nothing, is Tory party now so antebusiness it ignores the wealth
:09:27. > :09:31.creators? I think what you are saying is that the CBI which
:09:32. > :09:36.represents very large organisations has made that statement, but talking
:09:37. > :09:39.to business widely, and smaller private businesses which dominate
:09:40. > :09:43.the economy, what is vital on this is to have a rapid implementation
:09:44. > :09:49.period. That is what is important. And there has to be clarity of where
:09:50. > :09:54.we are going, if we are in permanent limbo which will take a enormous
:09:55. > :09:57.amount of negotiation and will take ratification by the 27 countries and
:09:58. > :10:03.the European Parliament as well as our own, that will drag things out.
:10:04. > :10:07.What we need to do is a clean Claire statement of reciprocal free trade
:10:08. > :10:12.which should be really pretty easy to negotiate because we have that,
:10:13. > :10:16.we have conformty of standard, we have an implementation period. That
:10:17. > :10:21.needs to be done rapidly. Latest by the next election. OK, we shall see
:10:22. > :10:24.how simple it turns out to be. Thank you for joining us here.
:10:25. > :10:30.What do you make of this increasing talk of transition period in which
:10:31. > :10:35.it is not clear, we remain full members of the single market, full
:10:36. > :10:39.members of the customs union? Which came we cannot conclude very
:10:40. > :10:46.quickly, in Mr Trump's word a free trade deal? This is where the battle
:10:47. > :10:52.is now heading, between Brexiteer, levers, re-levers and the lot of it.
:10:53. > :10:57.This will be really what the only thing we could achieve in the next
:10:58. > :11:01.negotiations, what has changed since the general election which you were
:11:02. > :11:05.touching on there, is of course Brussels in the year 2017 are no
:11:06. > :11:09.longer negotiating with Theresa May, they are negotiating with the House
:11:10. > :11:13.of Commons and the you know majority for a softer Brexit, so this will
:11:14. > :11:18.begin, the transition deal will define the rest of deal, the rest of
:11:19. > :11:21.the final relationship, so getting the transition on the right
:11:22. > :11:27.trajectory is crucial, hence why you have Philip Hammond making a major
:11:28. > :11:30.play to try and keep one foot in the EU, if not necessarily in the custom
:11:31. > :11:35.union and the single market and everyone else says get out. These
:11:36. > :11:38.are the opening skirmishes on what will certainly be the nettle that
:11:39. > :11:43.will will be grasped round about some time between October and spring
:11:44. > :11:46.next year. Are you worried that the election result, the fact that she
:11:47. > :11:50.didn't get this mandate that she had looked for and she has ended up in a
:11:51. > :11:54.weaker position than she was before the election, is going to make
:11:55. > :11:59.Brexit more difficult, it is going to muddy the water, it means her
:12:00. > :12:06.idea of Brexit is not necessarily the one that become Brexit? Yes I am
:12:07. > :12:11.worried are about as a Brexiteer, the same remain yaks would have been
:12:12. > :12:20.trying to scupper the will of the British people as expressed in June
:12:21. > :12:25.2016. Now they might succeed. I don't think any will succeed. We
:12:26. > :12:29.have to stop this nonsense and the media included, of this talk of soft
:12:30. > :12:33.Brexit an transition period. We have a transition period once we are out
:12:34. > :12:37.when we are leading to the next process, with have to be out of the
:12:38. > :12:41.single market, and not under the European Court of Justice. All
:12:42. > :12:48.within the two years, all by March... That happens automatically,
:12:49. > :12:52.then we can agree for a two, three year max, three year period we will
:12:53. > :12:58.have a position as we move to the new deal, but I don't think there
:12:59. > :13:01.many Leave voters, most Remain voters accept that result, unlike
:13:02. > :13:05.the people like the CBI who are fighting against it still, they will
:13:06. > :13:11.accept anything more than that. I think Owen Paterson is right. We are
:13:12. > :13:15.in a situation where we will face some serious disflus the
:13:16. > :13:20.establishment, the political world, the Melissa Reidia if we don't obey
:13:21. > :13:27.the will of the people. What do you make of the reports in the Sunday
:13:28. > :13:31.papers, it was only ten days ago, two weeks' ago Mr Hammond was going
:13:32. > :13:37.to be the caretaker leader, that is a story that didn't seem to last
:13:38. > :13:42.48-hour, but what do you make of the remain MPs on both sides of the
:13:43. > :13:50.House, plus peers, are going to try to derail this repeal act, that the
:13:51. > :13:55.Government needs to push EU law on to the UK statute book. I I think
:13:56. > :13:59.they will use it to at certain key points to attempt to defeat the
:14:00. > :14:05.Government, not over the whole thing, this summer reminds me so
:14:06. > :14:09.much of the summer of 92 who the Maastricht Treaty coming into a
:14:10. > :14:13.fragile John Major Government, and people then were plotting, in the
:14:14. > :14:18.opposite direction, Eurosceptics to try and stop that. He won with a
:14:19. > :14:27.huge percentage of the vote. Tiny majority, 23, bigger than she would
:14:28. > :14:32.have died for that. A shock victory. The The summer was full of talk and
:14:33. > :14:35.plotting, some which came to fruition in the sessions after and
:14:36. > :14:39.some will come into fruition from this autumn on ward where you will
:14:40. > :14:42.see alliances across the Commons manned the Lords, there will be
:14:43. > :14:45.moments of high Parliamentary drama, I think. Sounds like a long hot
:14:46. > :14:59.autumn. An a long hot autumn, and winter.
:15:00. > :15:01.Winter too? I thought it was all global warming. This will add to the
:15:02. > :15:03.temperature! Now, Jeremy Corbyn may not
:15:04. > :15:05.have won the election, but by confounding almost everyone's
:15:06. > :15:07.expectations he is unassailable as Labour leader for
:15:08. > :15:09.the foreseeable future. So what does that mean for his MPs,
:15:10. > :15:19.most of whom - just a year ago - Labour's new chairman and key
:15:20. > :15:25.cupping Ally said last week the party may be too broad church. He
:15:26. > :15:29.also seemed to endorse the idea of deselecting labour MPs critical of
:15:30. > :15:33.the leadership by saying if you get deselected there must be a reason.
:15:34. > :15:37.But he has since wrote back from his comments in another interview. Chris
:15:38. > :15:40.Williamson, the newly appointed labour frontbencher said some of his
:15:41. > :15:45.colleagues in the Parliamentary party think they have a God-given
:15:46. > :15:49.right to rule. He also said that if MPs don't support the leadership's
:15:50. > :15:55.programme, local constituency parties should find someone else who
:15:56. > :15:59.will. And in the seat of liveable waiver treats this week, left wing
:16:00. > :16:07.supporters of Jeremy Corbyn won several positions on the committee.
:16:08. > :16:10.One said she must get on board quite quickly now, and also publicly
:16:11. > :16:20.apologise for not supporting Mr Corbyn in the past. Some Labour MPs
:16:21. > :16:26.rushed to Luciano Berger's defends. Elsewhere, a list of 49 Labour MPs
:16:27. > :16:30.was published, and they said these usual suspects should join the
:16:31. > :16:36.Liberals. The list included prominent former frontbencher is
:16:37. > :16:41.like Chris Leslie, Chuka Umunna and tidying -- Heidi Alexander.
:16:42. > :16:43.And this is what the Shadow Education Secretary
:16:44. > :16:45.and Jeremy Corbyn ally, Angela Rayner, had to say earlier.
:16:46. > :16:47.Anyone that talks of deselecting any of my colleagues,
:16:48. > :16:50.frankly they need to think about actually, who are
:16:51. > :16:56.Who are making the problems for our communities at the moment?
:16:57. > :16:59.Who have made those disastrous policies that are hurting the people
:17:00. > :17:02.It doesn't help them if we're fighting each other.
:17:03. > :17:04.We're joined now from Sheffield by former
:17:05. > :17:11.Labour Cabinet Minister, Caroline Flint.
:17:12. > :17:19.Welcome to the programme. Labour frontbencher Chris Williamson has
:17:20. > :17:23.said, where Labour MPs don't support the leadership's programme it's
:17:24. > :17:29.incumbent on local members to find someone else who will. What do you
:17:30. > :17:41.make of that? I think it's very sad that talk of deselection is the line
:17:42. > :17:47.people are taking. We had an election where 262 Labour MPs, very
:17:48. > :17:51.different ones, have all won a mandate from their electorate and
:17:52. > :17:55.our job is, as Angela Rayner said this morning, is to focus on a
:17:56. > :17:58.government that is in disarray and how we can learn from the general
:17:59. > :18:01.election to broaden our appeal but also develop our policy is ready in
:18:02. > :18:07.time for the next election whenever that is called so I think all talk
:18:08. > :18:12.of deselection is misplaced and doesn't help Labour. But do you feel
:18:13. > :18:18.a purge of what is often referred to as the moderates in your party is
:18:19. > :18:23.now inevitable? No, because we have been here before in the 1980s when
:18:24. > :18:28.talk of deselection was suggested, it didn't happen in the way people
:18:29. > :18:35.thought it would, and I do believe, hearing how Ian Lee very, and I have
:18:36. > :18:43.worked with him in the 2010, 2015 government and I have worked with
:18:44. > :18:47.Chris Williamson, Ian has already refined what he said, and what he's
:18:48. > :18:53.clearly was this deselection talk and the way to go ahead on it is not
:18:54. > :18:59.the right way forward. We to focus on looking outwards to understand
:19:00. > :19:03.that we have across the party hard-working Labour MPs with maybe
:19:04. > :19:11.different views across the Labour political spectrum, and I would have
:19:12. > :19:17.to say that Luciana is one of the most hard-working MPs in Parliament
:19:18. > :19:23.and homework on mental health is outstanding. That may be true, let's
:19:24. > :19:27.look at Luciana Berger's constituency. One of the committee
:19:28. > :19:32.members on her committee says she now has to get on board quite
:19:33. > :19:41.quickly. And even publicly apologise for past disloyalty. The direction
:19:42. > :19:46.of travel is clear, isn't it? That is one person on a committee in one
:19:47. > :19:53.constituency... Where there is a majority for that point of view now.
:19:54. > :19:59.I don't think there is, and the truth is... They took nine seat. Her
:20:00. > :20:03.constituency is all of the members in that constituency and what I
:20:04. > :20:11.would say, and I don't know this individual, look at the track record
:20:12. > :20:16.of Luciana and what she has done. Jeremy, in the 20 years I have been
:20:17. > :20:20.an MP under both Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, voted against the
:20:21. > :20:24.Labour whip on numerous occasions, he has been very upfront and honest
:20:25. > :20:29.about this, do you know in those 20 years I never heard anybody say
:20:30. > :20:34.about Jeremy or anybody else who didn't vote with the Labour whip
:20:35. > :20:38.that they should face deselection or apologise. I think that represents
:20:39. > :20:42.the broad church of the Labour Party and we should look at what brings us
:20:43. > :20:47.together rather than differences on policy point of view and we should
:20:48. > :20:51.be looking outwards and dealing with that and working on it. You have
:20:52. > :20:56.said that three times but it has not happened and it may be that the
:20:57. > :21:02.people around Mr Corbyn, they think moderates like you, your day is
:21:03. > :21:05.over. You lost the 2015 election badly, you allowed Jeremy Corbyn to
:21:06. > :21:10.stand as leader, you failed to stop him twice, you thought he would make
:21:11. > :21:15.a mess of the June election and he didn't. Can you blame his supporters
:21:16. > :21:19.for wanting a career out of people who took these positions? I think
:21:20. > :21:22.there are some people who supported and still support Jeremy who feel
:21:23. > :21:28.that way but I don't believe they represent the people who supported
:21:29. > :21:32.Jeremy, and I don't believe Jeremy thinks this is in the best interests
:21:33. > :21:39.of the party. Only a few weeks ago John McDonnell praised my work on
:21:40. > :21:43.tax transparency. Since my election I have bumped into Jeremy and we
:21:44. > :21:50.have had a chat about what happened in the election and Jeremy
:21:51. > :21:56.recognises that we were up against an arrogant Tory party and has said
:21:57. > :21:59.to me he does understand this and said to the broader Parliamentary
:22:00. > :22:11.Labour Party... If I could just finish... What has he said about
:22:12. > :22:18.deselection? For example he said to me that he recognised that we have
:22:19. > :22:21.won in numerous places in outstanding circumstances but he's
:22:22. > :22:24.also said to me that he recognises that we need to broaden our reach
:22:25. > :22:29.and understand why we were working-class voters. That says to
:22:30. > :22:34.me that that is a leader who is up for and open to looking at the
:22:35. > :22:38.reasons why we were successful and the reasons we weren't and he wasn't
:22:39. > :22:44.closing down conversation on that. I take him on his word on that. He has
:22:45. > :22:49.not said that publicly. What we need from a leader is to challenge our
:22:50. > :22:53.party about where to go next and he has said that, Diane Abbott has said
:22:54. > :22:57.at a conference I was at a few weeks ago that we need now to look at our
:22:58. > :23:01.manifesto and look more clearly issues around tax and spend policies
:23:02. > :23:05.because obviously clearly now we have more time to look at those
:23:06. > :23:09.issues and also we may be facing a very different election when the
:23:10. > :23:12.time comes. That's what I want from the leadership team, talk about how
:23:13. > :23:20.we improve our message and reach, and by doing that get away from what
:23:21. > :23:26.song, a minority I have to say, are saying about deselection.
:23:27. > :23:32.Corbynistas like Paul Mason think moderates like you were to blame for
:23:33. > :23:41.the defeat. He said moderates were always attacking Mr Corbyn, that is
:23:42. > :23:47.quite popular view in the Jeremy Corbyn wing. I think that is Paul
:23:48. > :23:53.Mason's view and he is fundamentally wrong. When we look at the results
:23:54. > :23:56.of the last election, we can see a continuing from 2015 where Labour is
:23:57. > :24:03.losing support among older voters and what we see is in this election
:24:04. > :24:08.in 2017 Labour has... I think we are at our highest point amongst the
:24:09. > :24:13.middle-class voters compared to where we were in 1979 but the Tories
:24:14. > :24:18.are highest among working-class voters since 1979 as well. Those
:24:19. > :24:22.working-class voters weren't voting for a more left alternative to
:24:23. > :24:28.Labour and sadly they were voting Tory and we have to address that
:24:29. > :24:29.because our party is this broad church and representing
:24:30. > :24:33.working-class people is at the heart of what the Labour Party is about
:24:34. > :24:38.and that's a discussion we need to have. That is the depth of
:24:39. > :24:43.discussion we need to get into. That would put's with a fighting chance
:24:44. > :24:47.of taking on a Tory party that is in disarray. Caroline Flint, thank you
:24:48. > :24:49.for joining us. This week it was announced
:24:50. > :24:52.that the Grenfell Tower inquiry would hold its first public hearings
:24:53. > :24:54.in September, as it prepares to begin to examine
:24:55. > :24:56.what caused the tragedy. But some have warned
:24:57. > :24:58.that the situation now needs to be de-politicised,
:24:59. > :25:00.or it will damage In a moment we'll hear from the MP
:25:01. > :25:04.for Kensington and Chelsea where the Grenfell Tower
:25:05. > :25:06.fire took place. But first Emma Vardy looks at how
:25:07. > :25:08.political arguments have played a significant part in the aftermath
:25:09. > :25:23.of this terrible event. When you come here and you actually
:25:24. > :25:29.see it, your immediate thoughts are about the people,
:25:30. > :25:32.not about the politics. What happened up there is just
:25:33. > :25:36.so difficult to comprehend. But in the days after this tragedy,
:25:37. > :25:43.there was such outrage at governments and authorities,
:25:44. > :25:45.it became a political storm that those
:25:46. > :25:47.in power struggled to respond to. We want justice, we want
:25:48. > :25:52.justice, we want justice... People vented their anger outside
:25:53. > :26:00.Kensington town Hall. A visit to the Grenfell site
:26:01. > :26:03.by Theresa May saw her forced At Prime Minister's Questions,
:26:04. > :26:11.Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn linked What the tragedy of Grenfell Tower
:26:12. > :26:17.has exposed is a disastrous And speaking at Glastonbury,
:26:18. > :26:21.Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell Those families, those individuals,
:26:22. > :26:28.79 so far and there will be more, were murdered by political decisions
:26:29. > :26:38.that were taken over recent decades. I can't remember a major national
:26:39. > :26:41.tragedy that has been politicised I think using terms like murder
:26:42. > :26:47.is completely reckless The key thing is that we try
:26:48. > :26:55.to ascertain the facts this tragedy occurred to ensure
:26:56. > :26:58.it can never be repeated. And as soon as you introduce emotive
:26:59. > :27:01.phrases or emotive accusations or emotive allegations of that
:27:02. > :27:03.nature, then the discourse The whole debate around the tragedy
:27:04. > :27:09.becomes politicised and it makes it Some argue the political language
:27:10. > :27:19.that was used was wrong and helped to ramp up the vitriol
:27:20. > :27:23.in an unhelpful way, but for others, it was
:27:24. > :27:28.entirely justified. That's what an opposition party
:27:29. > :27:30.is for, it's to challenge the Government and to ask the right
:27:31. > :27:37.questions and I think people round here would say thank goodness,
:27:38. > :27:39.there's somebody in politics Pilgrim Tucker had helped
:27:40. > :27:42.Grenfell Tower residents campaign for building improvements
:27:43. > :27:44.in previous years, and returned I've been to meetings before
:27:45. > :27:48.the fire and I've been to meetings since the fire,
:27:49. > :27:51.attended by ordinary residents with no involvement in politics
:27:52. > :27:56.and they are saying very political things about land in London
:27:57. > :27:58.and property ownership in London, Had we campaigned harder,
:27:59. > :28:03.would we have prevented this? Fire safety campaigners say
:28:04. > :28:08.they were trying to draw attention to certain issues long before
:28:09. > :28:12.what happened at Grenfell Tower, and say it's no one political party
:28:13. > :28:24.but the whole system has failed. It's easy to say, "You've got
:28:25. > :28:27.an inquiry, let's wait for that." We already know two
:28:28. > :28:29.very clear things. Had the people there been
:28:30. > :28:31.protected by sprinklers, People don't die in homes
:28:32. > :28:34.protected by sprinklers. The second thing is the outrage
:28:35. > :28:36.that the building regulations had They should be done
:28:37. > :28:40.year in, year out. Generally people in house
:28:41. > :28:42.fires die in ones, twos or threes, which doesn't make
:28:43. > :28:44.a political statement. So the political parties
:28:45. > :28:46.haven't really needed They weren't prepared for 70 or more
:28:47. > :28:51.people to die at once The public inquiry, which will
:28:52. > :28:55.address some of those issues, has already faced calls
:28:56. > :28:56.for its newly appointed And that was a view
:28:57. > :29:01.echoed by the Labour MP You would call on him,
:29:02. > :29:06.would you, to stand down? I don't think there will be any
:29:07. > :29:12.credibility and some people are saying they won't cooperate
:29:13. > :29:15.with it so it's not going to work. I will look into this matter
:29:16. > :29:20.to the very best of my ability... I think the attacks on the chair
:29:21. > :29:23.have to cease, I think the attacks It actually makes it harder to get
:29:24. > :29:29.to the facts and get to the truth and that's the most
:29:30. > :29:34.important thing now. Some said it was unavoidable
:29:35. > :29:37.that this tragedy became political, but will the politics help get
:29:38. > :29:45.to the truth? I'm joined now by the Labour
:29:46. > :29:48.MP for Kensington - who we heard at the end of that film
:29:49. > :29:59.- Emma Dent Coad. Now this judge, leading the Grenfell
:30:00. > :30:04.inquiry, have you met him? I haven't met him, no. So what evidence do you
:30:05. > :30:08.have that he doesn't in your words understand human beings? Well, I am
:30:09. > :30:14.reflecting what people are telling me out there, that they as soon as
:30:15. > :30:18.his name was announced everybody looked up his credentials, they
:30:19. > :30:23.found a particular case he had been involved in, the very issue that
:30:24. > :30:27.people are most worried about, post Grenfell is they will be moved out
:30:28. > :30:31.of the borough somewhere else. This issue about social cleansing. It was
:30:32. > :30:34.insensitive to have chosen somebody with that on his record. Whether he
:30:35. > :30:39.made that decision according to the rules. It is one judgment in a long
:30:40. > :30:44.career, he may be able to defend what he did. You have said he
:30:45. > :30:47.doesn't understand human beings but you have told us you have never met
:30:48. > :30:51.him? It is nothing to do with meeting him. It is the system where
:30:52. > :30:55.people have to be friends in order to work together, judged by the
:30:56. > :30:59.evidence, judge by what people have done that, judge by merit and
:31:00. > :31:04.whether or not you can be friendly. What has he done wrong in his
:31:05. > :31:08.career? It is symbolic the issue he made a decision about, it is
:31:09. > :31:12.symbolic for everybody. I am reflecting the community who are
:31:13. > :31:15.been betrayed. You don't think in your often view you don't take the
:31:16. > :31:19.view he doesn't understand human beings. Personally I do. I do
:31:20. > :31:23.actually but I am reflecting what people are saying, the people who
:31:24. > :31:27.elected me, who have been badly betrayed by the authority, they are
:31:28. > :31:34.seeing it that way, they have been betrayed and now they see you know,
:31:35. > :31:37.they worst fear is this will be used top socially cleanse north
:31:38. > :31:42.Kensington. What is the evidence for that? About social cleansing? No,
:31:43. > :31:46.this will be used to do so. Whether or not there is ever, there is no
:31:47. > :31:51.trust in somebody who has been part of that process. He has been chosen
:31:52. > :31:58.by the Lord Chief Justice, not as the Prime Minister as some have
:31:59. > :32:02.said. He has a long ex perness of commercial contracts and disaster,
:32:03. > :32:07.both of which will be vital. It is a lot to do with overlapping
:32:08. > :32:11.commercial contract, he is a specialist in that area, what bit
:32:12. > :32:15.doesn't make his qualified and and doesn't he reflect the independence
:32:16. > :32:19.of the judiciary? Well, we certainly need somebody who can do the detail.
:32:20. > :32:22.This is a human disaster as much as anything else. We need somebody who,
:32:23. > :32:27.we saw in the meeting there, there is a lot of anger and people aren't
:32:28. > :32:31.trusting. . That would be true, we all understand the anger, of course,
:32:32. > :32:35.but that would be true whoever was chosen. Are you really after... Do
:32:36. > :32:39.you want someone to head up this inquiry that will give you a show
:32:40. > :32:43.trial rather than an independent inquiry. It is exactly the opposite.
:32:44. > :32:48.. Woe won't give us a show trial, is he? If there is no trust, people
:32:49. > :32:54.won't co-operate with him. A lot of people will need to co-operate with
:32:55. > :32:59.him. Some of the groups are not involved, they are protest groups
:33:00. > :33:04.who are not representing the victims, or the survivors, we have
:33:05. > :33:09.very little evidence that those who directly affected by this are saying
:33:10. > :33:13.they are not going to co-operate. Well, everybody who lives round
:33:14. > :33:17.there is a victim to some extent, they have all been affected, myself
:33:18. > :33:21.as well, I live three blocksia from it and a lot of the groups are very
:33:22. > :33:25.much involved in that community, not only the people who lived there who
:33:26. > :33:29.survived, but some of the campaign groups have been campaigning for
:33:30. > :33:32.years about social housing in area. What sort of person to you think
:33:33. > :33:38.should head up the inquiry is this If it has to be Martin, we need an
:33:39. > :33:42.advisory panel with representatives from different groups who can at
:33:43. > :33:47.least advise and feed in information, at least if we have no
:33:48. > :33:52.choice, we need at least that. But rather than him, what sort of
:33:53. > :33:55.person? I am not sure, are you saying he should remain but he needs
:33:56. > :34:00.to be assisted by a panel or he should be replaced? If we have no
:34:01. > :34:04.choice, then we should have an advisory panel to back it up.
:34:05. > :34:07.Something that people trust in. At the moment they don't trust the
:34:08. > :34:12.process, which is understandable, and his name was announced the same
:34:13. > :34:16.day as the Hillsborough disaster, the criminal investigation and so
:34:17. > :34:20.on, that after 28 year, this is what people, how people see it. They
:34:21. > :34:23.want, they don't trust the process s it won't work proppism it is not
:34:24. > :34:29.just what I think, it is what people who are directly involved thing.
:34:30. > :34:32.John McDonnell the Shadow Chancellor says people who died at Grenfell
:34:33. > :34:36.were murdered by political decision do you agree? That is a strong way
:34:37. > :34:41.of putting it. I know a lot of people feel like that. There is
:34:42. > :34:45.massive failure of political decision, I have seen that
:34:46. > :34:52.happening. But murder? That is an active verb. It means you intended
:34:53. > :34:55.to kill. So for Mr McDonnell to be right, these were political
:34:56. > :34:59.decisions taken intended to kill. I don't share his view on that
:35:00. > :35:03.particular issue, there has been a failure of care, for many, many
:35:04. > :35:08.years and a failure of investment for many year, as I have seen
:35:09. > :35:13.myself. But part of the problem has been investment. They had nine
:35:14. > :35:17.million spent on this block I was looking at it today, the other tower
:35:18. > :35:23.blocks round it have not been clad. Of course if they had gone on fire,
:35:24. > :35:28.the disaster would not have been on the same scale. Nine million helped
:35:29. > :35:33.to produce this. In indeed. The process of how that building was
:35:34. > :35:39.refurbished. It says it is to make it look better, half a mile down the
:35:40. > :35:46.road, the tower blocks have been clad, they were clad in mineral
:35:47. > :35:51.wool. I spent a day at a seminar by chance understanding, it is
:35:52. > :35:58.non-combustible. Who made that decision to use rain cladding rather
:35:59. > :36:04.than mineral wool. You were on the the board of who took that decision.
:36:05. > :36:08.The council had no say about the specification, we didn't have any
:36:09. > :36:14.involvement at all. It didn't come before you, because it has tenants
:36:15. > :36:19.on it too. The TMO does, The advisory committee to the TMO. There
:36:20. > :36:24.is the TMO. I was not there at the time. As far as I understand a sub
:36:25. > :36:28.group decided or reviewed the specifications of that. The housing
:36:29. > :36:33.and property committee is part of the council. Obviously you a say,
:36:34. > :36:37.but whether or not, we don't have any say at all over specification, I
:36:38. > :36:46.want to say somebody because I have been accused of... That because my
:36:47. > :36:49.predecessor said I should take responsibility, a clueing colleague
:36:50. > :36:52.of mine got beaten up for that, there is no foundation for that
:36:53. > :36:55.allegation. I thank you for clearing that up. Thank you for joining us
:36:56. > :37:01.too. It's just gone 11.35,
:37:02. > :37:03.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:37:04. > :37:05.in Scotland who leave us now Coming up here in 20
:37:06. > :37:09.minutes, The Week Ahead. First though, the Sunday
:37:10. > :37:19.Politics where you are. Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics
:37:20. > :37:21.in Northern Ireland. After all the talk of
:37:22. > :37:23.deals and deadlines, negotiations at Stormont have
:37:24. > :37:26.ended without agreement. So what next for the
:37:27. > :37:28.devolved institutions? We'll hear from a former Secretary
:37:29. > :37:31.of State who was involved in getting power-sharing up and running
:37:32. > :37:34.ten years ago. Plus, with the Department of Finance
:37:35. > :37:37.left holding the purse strings, how long before uncertainty starts
:37:38. > :37:44.to impact on our economic growth? We'll hear from an economist
:37:45. > :37:46.and from the past president of the Construction Employers'
:37:47. > :37:47.Federation. And with their thoughts
:37:48. > :37:51.on all of that, my guests of the day MLAs should be looking forward
:37:52. > :38:01.to the start of their summer break, but after months of talking
:38:02. > :38:04.and several missed deadlines, any chance of them returning
:38:05. > :38:06.to the Assembly chamber But the parties have been in this
:38:07. > :38:11.situation before and managed to negotiate a way through it -
:38:12. > :38:15.so will the summer break help or hinder the process
:38:16. > :38:17.of getting a deal? I'm joined by the former Secretary
:38:18. > :38:19.of State, Lord Hain, who was involved in the negotiations
:38:20. > :38:22.that led to the re-establishment No-one seems to be quite sure where
:38:23. > :38:33.we are with this at the moment. There seem to be more
:38:34. > :38:45.questions than answers. Everybody is in the same place and
:38:46. > :38:53.that's the problem. My position would be to support my successor as
:38:54. > :38:57.so set -- Secretary of State and the government of Northern Ireland, but
:38:58. > :39:02.the truth is there has been a shocking dereliction of
:39:03. > :39:07.responsibility by both governments, British and Irish, there is nobody
:39:08. > :39:13.at the helm, nobody is taking any initiatives to drive this board,
:39:14. > :39:17.there is a sense of drift and the Secretary of State last week said it
:39:18. > :39:21.would all be sorted by the end of the week, he has been making those
:39:22. > :39:28.noises for months and it never was and nobody last week believed it
:39:29. > :39:33.would be. There has to be a sense of change and Northern Ireland deserves
:39:34. > :39:39.better than this. You and I spoke last week just before the deadline
:39:40. > :39:44.happened and you were a tad more diplomatic and what you had to say.
:39:45. > :39:48.This is strong language from you today, suggesting the government has
:39:49. > :39:54.failed, James Brokenshire has failed. Do you think it goes up to
:39:55. > :39:59.the steps of Number 10? Michelle O'Neill says a monumental failure on
:40:00. > :40:06.behalf of Theresa May, do you share that view? I'm not backing any
:40:07. > :40:11.party's view but telling it as I see it, and my successor, Paul Murphy,
:40:12. > :40:16.and I both warned in the House of Lords six months ago that unless
:40:17. > :40:22.there was a summit of the Taoiseach and the Prime Minister, a high event
:40:23. > :40:29.to sort this out, we could get into trouble and it gives me no pleasure
:40:30. > :40:32.to say that has happened. I do not believe the whole problem in
:40:33. > :40:38.Northern Ireland has been properly gripped, either in London or Dublin
:40:39. > :40:44.four years, and especially over the past year and we have got into this
:40:45. > :40:48.terrible impasse and it's very serious, the last time the Assembly
:40:49. > :40:53.was suspended it took five years to get it up and running again and now
:40:54. > :40:59.we are over six months and drifting further into the autumn and winter,
:41:00. > :41:04.who knows when? And this is a critical time for Northern Ireland,
:41:05. > :41:10.not because of the Troubles but because Brexit, whereas Wales is
:41:11. > :41:15.making its input, Scotland and England is having it say directly in
:41:16. > :41:20.negotiations, in Wales and Scotland's case through the
:41:21. > :41:24.government, in London's case to the mayor yet the voice of Northern
:41:25. > :41:29.Ireland through its politicians is silent and that is a terrible
:41:30. > :41:36.dereliction of responsibility. You say there needs to be a high-level
:41:37. > :41:40.summit, are you saying the situation cannot be resolved satisfactorily
:41:41. > :41:47.without the personal engagement of the Prime Minister and Taoiseach?
:41:48. > :41:50.Has it got that far? Yes, unquestionably, it should have
:41:51. > :41:55.happened earlier and it should happen now. It's no good hoping to
:41:56. > :41:59.get an agreement within days when everyone knows that is moonshine, no
:42:00. > :42:05.good saying it may happen in such timbre. September will come and go
:42:06. > :42:10.and there will be no agreement because there is no sense of anybody
:42:11. > :42:15.driving this and I blame those at the top, especially of the British
:42:16. > :42:22.government, the Prime Minister especially and the Taoiseach, the
:42:23. > :42:25.card the government of Britain and Ireland from the Good Friday process
:42:26. > :42:32.on Word have both taken responsibility for this issue and
:42:33. > :42:35.Northern Ireland deserves a lot better than a Prime Minister or
:42:36. > :42:40.Taoiseach who have taken their eye off the ball and a Secretary of
:42:41. > :42:47.State and others who may be paddling furiously under the water but there
:42:48. > :42:50.is no sense of any drive and no sense of any consequences for
:42:51. > :42:56.Northern Ireland's politicians of not doing their jobs. It's
:42:57. > :43:01.interesting that you should use this language, markedly different from
:43:02. > :43:06.the language used by the Shadow Secretary of State, Owen Smith, and
:43:07. > :43:10.Jeremy Corbyn has not been criticising Theresa May on this
:43:11. > :43:16.particular issue, failing to deal with the impasse in Northern
:43:17. > :43:20.Ireland, so are you alone voice and are you implicitly criticising the
:43:21. > :43:27.leadership of your own party? Not at all. Owen Smith and Jeremy Corbyn
:43:28. > :43:32.are taking their traditional stance of trying to be as supportive as
:43:33. > :43:40.possible in Parliament. But supporting a strategy that you have
:43:41. > :43:45.told me cannot work. As a former Secretary of State, I think I'm in a
:43:46. > :43:49.different position, I'm not involved in the parliamentary front line
:43:50. > :43:56.situation as I was, and I can tell it straight as I see it and it's not
:43:57. > :44:02.just to me, it's my predecessor Paul Murphy, who said much the same,
:44:03. > :44:06.columnists like Alex Kane who you have on the programme, who was
:44:07. > :44:11.saying much the same and he was a former Ulster unionist director of
:44:12. > :44:16.communications. What would you do now if you were James Brokenshire
:44:17. > :44:20.are? He talked about profound and serious implications if the deadline
:44:21. > :44:26.was not met, it wasn't met and none of us are wiser as to what those
:44:27. > :44:33.implications are. What would you do if you were back here as Secretary
:44:34. > :44:37.of State? Would you cut MLAs' salaries or threatened to introduce
:44:38. > :44:42.water charges? I would have the Prime Minister at my side as I did
:44:43. > :44:46.under Tony Blair and the Irish Foreign Minister did with Bertie R
:44:47. > :44:51.Hearn, those two word gripping this on a daily basis over years so I
:44:52. > :44:58.would be in a different position but I did take editions, and it's not
:44:59. > :45:03.for me to do -- to say to the current Secretary of State what he
:45:04. > :45:07.should do, but I took the view that unless there was progress of a
:45:08. > :45:13.systematic kind which eventually succeeded, I would take away MLA
:45:14. > :45:20.expenses which meant their staff would have to be given notice and
:45:21. > :45:25.also the party funding, the parties together with their expenses and
:45:26. > :45:28.direct party funding at Stormont, they are getting millions of pounds
:45:29. > :45:32.and yet they are the only group of Northern Ireland workers who are not
:45:33. > :45:40.going to work and earning their salaries. So far there is a lot of
:45:41. > :45:46.character... That has to be on the agenda. We have a lot of carrot and
:45:47. > :45:51.no stick, you are saying James Brokenshire need to think seriously
:45:52. > :45:56.about an inventory of sanctions if he is going to cajole politicians to
:45:57. > :46:00.coming to an agreement, or he will set more deadlines and we will drive
:46:01. > :46:06.a coach through them as well. Clearly deadlines mean nothing and
:46:07. > :46:12.that means you have no credibility as a government if you set deadlines
:46:13. > :46:19.that are not met. That was the position I took on the consequences
:46:20. > :46:23.of no deal, I also introduced water charges and a ban on academic
:46:24. > :46:30.selection and when those proved unpopular I said to the politicians,
:46:31. > :46:34.OK, if you don't like them, you take responsibility, negotiate a deal
:46:35. > :46:40.with the others and get on with the jobs you are supposed to do but the
:46:41. > :46:43.buck should stop at Number 10 and in Dublin and they have not taken
:46:44. > :46:51.charge, that is were the main problem lies. Briefly, Lord came, as
:46:52. > :46:57.things stand, do you think we are inevitably looking at the
:46:58. > :47:01.reintroduction of direct rule? I do, I cannot see where else we are going
:47:02. > :47:07.and that would be a tragedy. I thought I was the last direct rule
:47:08. > :47:13.Secretary of State in 2007, it would be an absolute tragedy and a
:47:14. > :47:18.dangerous time for Northern Ireland with the broader question the
:47:19. > :47:24.elephant in the room, Brexit having enormous consequences for Northern
:47:25. > :47:25.Ireland. Very interesting to hear your thoughts, thank you for joining
:47:26. > :47:27.us from Wales. Let's hear from my guests of
:47:28. > :47:39.the day, Alex Kane and Anna Mercer. Not pulling any punches. He is not,
:47:40. > :47:45.although when Peter was Secretary of State, Sinn Fein and the DUP had
:47:46. > :47:50.just eclipsed the UUP and SDLP, they wanted to do a deal, they both had
:47:51. > :47:55.something to prove and that has gone, neither has anything to prove
:47:56. > :48:02.and he's right about direct rule, these parties want to govern but not
:48:03. > :48:06.together. How do you see it? There is a lack of experience
:48:07. > :48:12.across-the-board, we have two new leaders, our Secretary of State is
:48:13. > :48:17.pretty new in the job, previous crises we may have had bigger
:48:18. > :48:23.figures, Martin McGuinness and Peter Robinson and Paisley, who had that
:48:24. > :48:27.experience of trying to push things went it didn't seem like anyone was
:48:28. > :48:34.moving. At the moment we want to create a winner and a loser and we
:48:35. > :48:37.need a win for everyone. What about the notion that Prime Minister and
:48:38. > :48:44.Taoiseach need to be personally engaged or there is no chance of
:48:45. > :48:49.momentum? I don't see where else the leadership will come from.
:48:50. > :48:54.Westminster goes into recess on the 20th of July, we have heard there
:48:55. > :49:00.will not be budget legislation before then, do we go to another
:49:01. > :49:04.election? What will change, I'm not sure, and Sinn Fein and the DUP are
:49:05. > :49:11.seeing strong results on both sides so why should they move? Interesting
:49:12. > :49:16.Sinn Fein has not called for another election. They know it will bring
:49:17. > :49:22.them back with the same figures and they don't need a summit, Theresa
:49:23. > :49:25.May and the Taoiseach have no particular interest, just lock them
:49:26. > :49:28.in a room and say you have three months and if you don't do a deal,
:49:29. > :49:30.everything is closed. Well, while we are without
:49:31. > :49:33.an Assembly and an Executive, government departments must
:49:34. > :49:35.still continue to provide public services and spend
:49:36. > :49:37.their money accordingly. But how long can we continue
:49:38. > :49:39.without either local or hands-on direct rule ministers
:49:40. > :49:41.and what impact is it In a moment we'll hear
:49:42. > :49:45.from the economist Paul MacFlynn and Rhona Quinn, who's a former
:49:46. > :49:47.president of the Construction But first here's our business
:49:48. > :49:58.correspondent, Julian O'Neill. Stormont collapsed without having
:49:59. > :50:03.set a budget for this year, leaving senior civil servants in control of
:50:04. > :50:07.the departmental spending but the cash flow is constrained in the
:50:08. > :50:12.circumstances, the civil servants got only 75% of the block grant
:50:13. > :50:18.allocation to begin with and by the end of this month it will move to
:50:19. > :50:23.95%. In theory this leaves a ?500 million shortfall but a budget and
:50:24. > :50:29.access to all the block grant is very likely in the autumn. If there
:50:30. > :50:33.is no political agreement allowing Stormont to do it, Westminster will
:50:34. > :50:38.add, a bit like how it sorted out rates bills earlier this year.
:50:39. > :50:43.Meantime, Blix services are largely ticking over the James Brokenshire
:50:44. > :50:50.is likely to step in soon and make some spending decisions. A sum of
:50:51. > :50:55.around ?120 million needs to be freed up and allocated to
:50:56. > :50:59.departments with health and education likely beneficiaries. It
:51:00. > :51:03.will be a bit like the Secretary of State doing the kind of monitoring
:51:04. > :51:04.round which usually happens around the Executive table.
:51:05. > :51:08.Joining me now are Rhona Quinn and Paul MacFlynn.
:51:09. > :51:11.Paul, it looks like we won't have a budget until the autumn,
:51:12. > :51:14.although James Brokenshire looks set to step in and distribute that ?120
:51:15. > :51:17.million in end-of-year monitoring, but who makes the decisions on how
:51:18. > :51:30.In the absence of an executive, it will have to be a minister of some
:51:31. > :51:34.kind and unfortunately the only minister at present is the Secretary
:51:35. > :51:42.of State. He can do that in conjunction with parties but it is
:51:43. > :51:45.his decent vision and the ?120 million is significant but
:51:46. > :51:51.notwithstanding the election result, the block grant for Northern Ireland
:51:52. > :51:55.was outlined in the April budget, it is flat until 2020 and with
:51:56. > :52:00.inflation that means large cuts, so decisions around where that money
:52:01. > :52:05.will be spent will become difficult and too makes those decisions will
:52:06. > :52:09.be even worse. The rule of thumb is if there is an existing project
:52:10. > :52:14.under way, civil servants can continue to feed the money into that
:52:15. > :52:20.that of a new strategy is to be put in place for a decision taken about
:52:21. > :52:25.a major capital projects, that requires a minister and if we don't
:52:26. > :52:31.have direct rule ministers were locally elected ministers, those
:52:32. > :52:35.projects will go into abeyance. Even projects that have been given
:52:36. > :52:41.initial ministerial direction, if they run into trouble that require
:52:42. > :52:44.policy decisions, there has to be some ministerial responsibility.
:52:45. > :52:49.Civil servants will not take those decisions and that goes to somewhere
:52:50. > :52:55.in London or in Whitehall discussions, who knows how long the
:52:56. > :53:00.delay could be? Rhona, what are the implications for your company and
:53:01. > :53:06.the people you represented at the absence of that decision-making
:53:07. > :53:09.capability? First of all Peter Hain is right, this is a serious
:53:10. > :53:15.situation and any uncertainty for business is not good regardless what
:53:16. > :53:19.secretary you are in. Our difficulties are a lack of
:53:20. > :53:24.decision-making on projects due to the lack of ministerial approval. In
:53:25. > :53:29.our industry there are in-built delays to the planning and
:53:30. > :53:33.procurement processes so this will add further delays so the lack of
:53:34. > :53:39.spent on infrastructure is not good for our industry or the wider
:53:40. > :53:42.economy because it prevents inward investment, attracting tourism, so
:53:43. > :53:48.overall it is not good for the economy. What is your message to
:53:49. > :53:53.politicians who do not seem capable of coming together and reaching
:53:54. > :54:00.agreement? I would like to think our politicians are working for the good
:54:01. > :54:04.of the economy. First we need a functioning administration up and
:54:05. > :54:08.going but we needed in the context of a fair and inclusive society, I
:54:09. > :54:12.would also like to say the infrastructure of spent should be
:54:13. > :54:19.spread evenly across the province, the West should not be forgotten
:54:20. > :54:23.about. Paul, I wonder what to think the implications might be for an
:54:24. > :54:31.extra money the DUP got out the Conservative Party to keep in
:54:32. > :54:36.government? ?1.5 billion, is it possible that money will not be able
:54:37. > :54:43.to be spent while we continue in this limbo? That's a political deal
:54:44. > :54:47.outside ordinary government accounts so what's the deal between the DUP
:54:48. > :54:51.and the Conservatives how that will be spent. There are maybe a
:54:52. > :54:57.structure that we see it spent in the absence of an executive from the
:54:58. > :55:03.UK Government's point of view, they gave the least amount of money they
:55:04. > :55:08.could, the Treasury always does, so the idea of having local politicians
:55:09. > :55:11.is they make decisions for the benefit of Northern Ireland, if the
:55:12. > :55:15.Treasury makes decisions, they will make decisions that benefit the
:55:16. > :55:22.Treasury and that means keeping as much as they can. But it requires
:55:23. > :55:26.politicians at some level, whether direct rule ministers were locally
:55:27. > :55:30.elected, someone has to take responsibility for divvying up that
:55:31. > :55:36.money. The Secretary of State already intervened with respect of
:55:37. > :55:41.regional rates, he indicated what his budget would look like and if
:55:42. > :55:48.that comes in the autumn in the absence of an executive but whether
:55:49. > :55:51.direct rule ministers are appointed is a relevant, where decisions are
:55:52. > :55:55.taken is what matters and they are either being taken in Stormont or
:55:56. > :56:01.Westminster and there doesn't seem to be an option in between. Are we
:56:02. > :56:06.in the worst possible situation, neither devolution nor direct rule,
:56:07. > :56:13.does that provide uncertainty for RE, may? Absolutely, we are in a
:56:14. > :56:20.perfect storm, not only facing a lack of administration but all the
:56:21. > :56:26.uncertainty around Brexit so it is a serious situation, OK, direct rule
:56:27. > :56:30.is maybe something we have to do if it is the only option but I would
:56:31. > :56:35.like to think that as a temporary measure because we need local
:56:36. > :56:39.politicians making local decisions about how we spend our money, if we
:56:40. > :56:44.have a London-based politicians deciding about a much-needed school
:56:45. > :56:49.in County Tyrone, it would be harder for him to make that case than a
:56:50. > :56:54.local politician so it is critical we have local people making these
:56:55. > :57:01.decisions. Not just Tyrone, the West is a big place but old politics is
:57:02. > :57:07.local. A final note about the York Street Interchange project, do you
:57:08. > :57:11.know how that stands? We know there has been initial ministerial
:57:12. > :57:15.direction for it but they can run into difficulties which require a
:57:16. > :57:19.policy decision and that that is a priority in Westminster, all well
:57:20. > :57:22.and good but if not it will model on for years. Interesting to hear your
:57:23. > :57:25.perspectives. Now, let's pause and have a look
:57:26. > :57:29.back at the week in 60 seconds After months of talks
:57:30. > :57:41.no deal was reached It has been hugely damaging in
:57:42. > :57:47.respect of public confidence in the institutions and we need to build up
:57:48. > :57:48.that confidence. This constitutes an monumental failure on behalf of
:57:49. > :57:48.Theresa May. And the other parties forecast
:57:49. > :57:56.problems ahead for Northern Ireland. People across Northern Ireland are
:57:57. > :58:03.facing weeks of further political paralysis. And a general loss of
:58:04. > :58:03.trust and respect for politicians in Northern Ireland.
:58:04. > :58:05.With the talks process unsuccessful, the focus shifted
:58:06. > :58:14.I intend to bring forward legislation that will provide for
:58:15. > :58:18.the publication of all donations and loans received by Northern Ireland
:58:19. > :58:19.parties after July 2017. The Alliance Party are unhappy
:58:20. > :58:27.the figures won't be backdated. Failure to address that issue
:58:28. > :58:28.properly can only enhance suspicion and cynicism.
:58:29. > :58:34.Enda and Rory pair up at the Irish Open.
:58:35. > :58:41.Let's have a final word with Alex and Anna.
:58:42. > :58:47.Alex, we have been hearing about the legal challenge mounted by a Green
:58:48. > :58:52.Party member here questioning the legality of the deal between the
:58:53. > :58:57.Tories and the DUP in that it allegedly breaches the Good Friday
:58:58. > :59:01.Agreement. I'm not sure it does breach the terms, I don't think the
:59:02. > :59:06.deal has compromised the neutrality of the British government. That is
:59:07. > :59:14.what Ciaran McClean once a court to decide. I think it will go nowhere,
:59:15. > :59:18.parties make deals in these circumstances, the Tories had to
:59:19. > :59:23.make a deal, you cannot turn around and say ignore the will of
:59:24. > :59:27.Parliament and two big parties. Ciaran McClean's case is that it
:59:28. > :59:33.preaches the rigorous impartiality required by the Good Friday
:59:34. > :59:36.Agreement. And the British and Irish governments are supposed to be
:59:37. > :59:41.custodians of the Good Friday Agreement. I think Alex has a point,
:59:42. > :59:46.it may be the perception that is more damaging than the legal out
:59:47. > :59:51.workings, I'm not a lawyer but I think with the challenges we have
:59:52. > :59:56.seen an Brexit, politicians is a land apart. I think what will be
:59:57. > :00:00.difficult is as we go forward, what happens to this money, how is it
:00:01. > :00:07.allocated without an executive and with only the DUP with Lady Sylvia
:00:08. > :00:10.Hermon in Westminster and no nationalist representatives, how can
:00:11. > :00:12.we ensure the British government remain that neutral arbiter? That is
:00:13. > :00:13.a big Now just under a year ago,
:00:14. > :00:25.Theresa May was making her way back from Buckingham Palace having been
:00:26. > :00:27.asked by the Queen To say it's been a tumultuous twelve
:00:28. > :00:31.months would be an understatement - here's a reminder of
:00:32. > :00:39.the highs and lows. I have just been to Buckingham
:00:40. > :00:42.Palace, where Her Majesty the Queen has asked me to form
:00:43. > :00:50.a new Government and I accepted. If you're just managing,
:00:51. > :00:52.I want to address you directly. I know you're working
:00:53. > :00:54.around-the-clock, I know you're doing your best,
:00:55. > :00:56.and I know that sometimes When future generations
:00:57. > :01:05.look back at this time, they will judge us not only
:01:06. > :01:08.by the decision that we made, but by I have just chaired a meeting
:01:09. > :01:23.of the Cabinet, where we agreed that the Government should call
:01:24. > :01:27.a general election to The Conservative Party
:01:28. > :01:45.has won the most seats and probably the most votes,
:01:46. > :01:50.then it will be incumbent on us to ensure we have that period
:01:51. > :02:08.of stability and that is exactly So 12 months in the life of Theresa
:02:09. > :02:13.May, and the rest of us too. I am exhausted. I don't know what she
:02:14. > :02:17.feels like! How weak or strong is her position and this constant
:02:18. > :02:22.reporting, more on the Sunday paper today about groups of Tory MPs
:02:23. > :02:25.manoeuvring to bring her down in the autumn, before the autumn after the
:02:26. > :02:29.autumn, name a month between now and the end of the year. Is that, that
:02:30. > :02:34.has to be corrosive as well. Absolutely. Every week there will be
:02:35. > :02:37.another story. The reality is the stronger Jeremy Corbyn and the
:02:38. > :02:42.Labour Party look the stronger her position is because it is what are
:02:43. > :02:46.the alternative, Theresa May or... It is depending on the polls where
:02:47. > :02:50.it is Theresa May herself who is helping to cause that boost for
:02:51. > :02:55.Jeremy Corbyn, if she is the toxic part of the Tory party brand, and if
:02:56. > :03:00.they get rid of her the Tories would spring back up and the Labour Party
:03:01. > :03:05.would go down or is it best for her to soak it, literally draw out the
:03:06. > :03:09.toxins and then, I don't know, two money, six months a year, she stands
:03:10. > :03:14.down and next leader takes the over, next generation or David Davis and
:03:15. > :03:19.they start again, start afresh, and she takes all the badness, the
:03:20. > :03:23.toxins with her this is thing, there must be a hell of a lot of detailed
:03:24. > :03:30.polls right now find that out. I don't know the answer. Can she
:03:31. > :03:34.relaunch herself? No, she will make a big speech on Tuesday, ex tracts
:03:35. > :03:42.are being briefed into tomorrow's papers, I have seen them. . What is
:03:43. > :03:48.the subject matter? Me. Not me, her. There has been enough movement from
:03:49. > :03:51.BBC... It is going to be her, it will be the relaunch. I have a
:03:52. > :03:55.purpose, still here and allow me to stay, but the problem is, Julia is
:03:56. > :04:01.right, there is a feeling among Tory MPs it would be ideal for her to
:04:02. > :04:05.last at least two years, suck in the bad bit, and to have a referendum or
:04:06. > :04:10.not, and the miscalculations and bring in a new person, untarnished.
:04:11. > :04:15.The problem over that is events dear boy as someone once said. Brexit may
:04:16. > :04:20.go well, it may not. Talks may produce something or she may get
:04:21. > :04:24.stuck down a hole. She is the sticking plaster over the two side
:04:25. > :04:28.of the Tory party. She is there, because they want her to be there
:04:29. > :04:32.and that Palacester is stilled holding, if that seismic divide goes
:04:33. > :04:39.any further, the plaster breaks she will go down the hole with it. David
:04:40. > :04:43.Davis said she doesn't want a leadership election, the papers are
:04:44. > :04:49.full of briefings from what are claimed to be from his people saying
:04:50. > :04:53.she faces abject misery, that it is time she will have to go sooner
:04:54. > :05:00.rather than later, they clearly haven't got the memo from DD as he
:05:01. > :05:03.is called. Publicly they have, to declare loyalty until the moment
:05:04. > :05:12.when they feel the time has come to be disloyal. The problem she has got
:05:13. > :05:17.is that context determines 95% of how a leader is perceived. She can
:05:18. > :05:23.make a brilliant speech this week about how she plans to be bold but
:05:24. > :05:31.the context is that lost majority in the election, a hung parliament with
:05:32. > :05:34.Brexit looming. It makes it hard to be bold, hung Parliaments are not
:05:35. > :05:41.bold. You will have to manoeuvre all the time and it be exhausting and
:05:42. > :05:44.transparent in the scheming, a like with the arrangement with the DUP,
:05:45. > :05:48.some of the vote it is a have happened and it will be utterly
:05:49. > :05:52.draining, now Julia is is right. The key question for the Tories will be
:05:53. > :05:56.if they get someone else in, does that transform their prospects?
:05:57. > :06:03.While that is not clear, I agree she will probably cling on, but there
:06:04. > :06:06.will be no glorious summer for her again, the pre-election context was
:06:07. > :06:12.fantastic for her, it is really dark now, and tough. The key thing is
:06:13. > :06:17.what you said, who would have thunk it. You have said the Tories are
:06:18. > :06:22.frightened to call to provoke us another election because they fear,
:06:23. > :06:27.they think Jeremy Corbyn will win. Who would have thought we would get
:06:28. > :06:32.into that position? In the same argument who would have thought
:06:33. > :06:35.Theresa May been so popular. Who would have thought Jeremy Corbyn
:06:36. > :06:39.would get where he is now? That shows there is still hope for not
:06:40. > :06:44.maybe, maybe not Theresa May, I think that she has holed below the
:06:45. > :06:48.water line, what goes up can also come down, but in Theresa May's
:06:49. > :06:53.defence, and I don't think she will last very long, and I think she has
:06:54. > :06:57.been exposed, during the election campaign for just not having enough
:06:58. > :07:01.of depth, of the fight, but to be fair she must have a backbone of
:07:02. > :07:04.steel, a lesser man or holed below the water line, what goes up can
:07:05. > :07:07.also come down, but in Theresa May's defence, and I don't think she will
:07:08. > :07:09.last very long, and I think she has been exposed, during the election
:07:10. > :07:12.campaign for just not having enough of depth, of the fight, but to be
:07:13. > :07:15.fair she must have a backbone of steel, a lesser man or woman holed
:07:16. > :07:18.below the water line, what goes up can also come down, but in Theresa
:07:19. > :07:21.May's defence, and I don't think she will last very long, and I think she
:07:22. > :07:23.has been exposed, during the election campaign for just not
:07:24. > :07:26.having enough of depth, of the fight, but to be fair she must have
:07:27. > :07:29.a backbone of steel, a lesser man or woman who have gone, "I'm off now."
:07:30. > :07:32.To take the flak she is get, she is steely as they come. It is almost a
:07:33. > :07:34.form of penance she is doing, having brought her party to this less than
:07:35. > :07:37.glorious position, she's having to try and kind of restore things a
:07:38. > :07:40.bit, knowing in her heart of hearts and perhaps not as deep at that,
:07:41. > :07:42.that she will not be the beneficiary. Absolutely not. That is
:07:43. > :07:45.what she said to the 1922 Committee that Monday after the general
:07:46. > :07:48.election, I got us into this mess, I am going to get us out of it. Talks
:07:49. > :07:50.to MPs this week, it is interesting, there is pretty hard feeling
:07:51. > :07:55.settling that the new person should come from the 2010 intake, skip a
:07:56. > :08:03.generation. The Boris, the Teresa, the Hammonds. Bye Amber Rudd? She
:08:04. > :08:09.has a tiny minority -- majority. There was one minister in your foyer
:08:10. > :08:13.an hour ago. Did we have a foyer? I think about 30 of them, all of them
:08:14. > :08:17.believe it or not fancy their chance, and for any of those to
:08:18. > :08:19.expose themselves and to lay out their agenda they will need
:08:20. > :08:25.two-years to make these sort of Sport Reliefs Let us turn to Labour.
:08:26. > :08:28.Well, earlier we talked to Caroline Flint about the threat
:08:29. > :08:32.Here's what Shadow Minister and Corbyn ally, Chris Williamson,
:08:33. > :08:35.MPs need to reflect the political programme that is overwhelmingly
:08:36. > :08:37.supported by Labour members and Labour supporters,
:08:38. > :08:38.and if people aren't prepared to do that,
:08:39. > :08:41.then it will be up to members in their local constituencies
:08:42. > :08:58.How big a change is Labour going to undergo? To what extent will Labour
:08:59. > :09:04.now be recast in the mould of Mr Corbyn and his wing of the party?
:09:05. > :09:08.Well in policy terms it already has been largely recast into the Corbyn
:09:09. > :09:13.McDonnell view, although with lots of examples of them being pretty
:09:14. > :09:19.expedient, Trident being an example. Where they went into the election
:09:20. > :09:22.backing retention, even though personally they are totally
:09:23. > :09:27.committed to nuclear disarmament. He might be able to move to that
:09:28. > :09:32.position? They might but that example of expend yen sip leads me
:09:33. > :09:37.to this. . I suspect Corbyn and McDonnell will be thinking we are
:09:38. > :09:44.close to power do we really want 18 months of Civil War, which is what
:09:45. > :09:50.deelection battles would become, and terrible publicity, and an imflowing
:09:51. > :09:54.a party on the verge possibly of an election win. -- implosion. My guess
:09:55. > :10:00.is they won't and they will go out of their way to try and stop it.
:10:01. > :10:03.John McDonnell said many times divide a party lose elections, I
:10:04. > :10:07.don't think they will want this. There are power battles in party, we
:10:08. > :10:11.have been talking about it in the Tory party, and there will be
:10:12. > :10:14.moments of heightened tension between the Labour MPs and their
:10:15. > :10:20.memberships but I don't think that this is going to happen. If Steve is
:10:21. > :10:26.right we should be looking for signs of them looking for signs of them
:10:27. > :10:31.hosing things down. Although, I don't think they need to do this.
:10:32. > :10:36.The moderate wing of the party, they are not standing up to Jeremy Corbyn
:10:37. > :10:39.any more, they are trying to get a few Select Committee Chairmanships
:10:40. > :10:44.and survive and hope something happens. The extraordinary thing is,
:10:45. > :10:51.given that no-one expected Jeremy Corbyn, no-one tried to deselect him
:10:52. > :10:58.and no-one accused him of disloyalty. We are in Soviet style
:10:59. > :11:03.show trial, you know, repent territory. We haven't had a show
:11:04. > :11:07.trial yet. Matter of time. Apart from Brexit. The Labour Party are
:11:08. > :11:12.united until it comes to votes on the House of Commons on what to do
:11:13. > :11:18.about Europe. So, Brexit goes well, that 49 will wither away a bit and
:11:19. > :11:27.start getting... If Brexit goes badly. Vince Cable saying we need a
:11:28. > :11:31.mud referendum, huge temptation then among Labour MPs to recalibrate and
:11:32. > :11:37.a oar gue for staying in and that would split the partyty down the
:11:38. > :11:41.middle. You heard Owen Paterson say 85% of people voted for parties that
:11:42. > :11:47.wanted Brexit, meaning Labour and Conservative. It is true that Jeremy
:11:48. > :11:51.Corbyn and Mr McDonnell are more Eurosceptic than people realise.
:11:52. > :11:56.They want another election quickly, because they don't know how, this
:11:57. > :12:00.maybe as good as it gets. None of us know, so get an election quick
:12:01. > :12:05.because we think we might win it. That means that they could well play
:12:06. > :12:11.game, why would they just bolster the store Tories if a big defeat on
:12:12. > :12:16.Brexit could provoke an election. I am guessing they will play games, if
:12:17. > :12:21.there is chance of undermining the Government perhaps fatally to get
:12:22. > :12:24.this early election which would be massively in their interest, theyry
:12:25. > :12:29.ahead in the poll, I think that will do it. They have displayed
:12:30. > :12:34.expediency on Europe in the past, possibly arguing for it why having
:12:35. > :12:38.doubts about it in the referendum, for Remain, sorely. So yes, I think
:12:39. > :12:42.there will be, as I said earlier, in this Parliament there will be going
:12:43. > :12:46.to be moments where it looks as if the Government could be defeat and I
:12:47. > :12:53.think they will move towards defeating the Government. Any
:12:54. > :12:57.remainor should be more worried about the economics of a Corbyn left
:12:58. > :13:00.On that point we better leave it there.
:13:01. > :13:06.I'll be back here on BBC One at the same time next week
:13:07. > :13:10.And Jo Co's back tomorrow with the Daily Politics on BBC Two
:13:11. > :13:13.at the earlier time of 11am - that's because of Wimbledon.
:13:14. > :13:24.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.