0:00:35 > 0:00:37Morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39I'm Sarah Smith.
0:00:39 > 0:00:41And this is your essential briefing to everything that's happening this
0:00:41 > 0:00:45morning in the world of politics.
0:00:45 > 0:00:48Big fines for bosses who take bonuses from firms with black holes
0:00:48 > 0:00:52in their pension funds - will the Prime Minister's promise
0:00:52 > 0:00:54help the Government get back on the front foot
0:00:54 > 0:00:56after the collapse of Carillion?
0:00:56 > 0:00:59Leading Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg says the Lords risk fundamental
0:00:59 > 0:01:06reform if they obstruct the passage of the EU Withdrawal Bill.
0:01:06 > 0:01:07Arch-remainer Lord Adonis says that's their job.
0:01:07 > 0:01:10We'll bring the MP and the peer together.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13Henry Bolton fights to save his job after a week of damaging headlines
0:01:13 > 0:01:15about his relationship with a 25-year-old model.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17We'll be talk to the Ukip leader live.
0:01:17 > 0:01:25Will it be his last interview as party leader?
0:01:25 > 0:01:28Coming up here - City Deals for Belfast and Londonderry,
0:01:28 > 0:01:30the chances of fresh talks succeeding and the new Sinn Fein
0:01:30 > 0:01:37President-elect will all be up for discussion today.
0:01:37 > 0:01:42All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:42 > 0:01:46And with me today, our regular gaggle of experts providing
0:01:46 > 0:01:49the inside track on all the big stories - Tom Newton Dunn,
0:01:49 > 0:01:51Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54First this morning, Theresa May is proposing what she's
0:01:54 > 0:01:57calling tough new rules to penalise company executives
0:01:57 > 0:02:00who try to line their own pockets by putting their workers'
0:02:00 > 0:02:01pensions at risk.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03"An unacceptable abuse," she says, "that will end."
0:02:03 > 0:02:05Her comments come as the Government attempts to seize the initiative
0:02:05 > 0:02:07after the collapse of the giant construction, services
0:02:07 > 0:02:09and out-sourcing company, Carillion, which went into liquidation
0:02:09 > 0:02:14on Monday with debts of around £1.5 billion.
0:02:14 > 0:02:16One of Britain's biggest construction firms, Carillion,
0:02:16 > 0:02:19has been put into liquidation.
0:02:19 > 0:02:2520,000 workers face an uncertain future.
0:02:25 > 0:02:27Carillion employed people providing essential services in our schools,
0:02:27 > 0:02:30hospitals, railways and prisons.
0:02:30 > 0:02:33They had to be told they would be paid when they turned
0:02:33 > 0:02:34up to work on Monday.
0:02:34 > 0:02:38Let me be clear that all employees should continue to turn up to work
0:02:38 > 0:02:40confident in the knowledge that they will be paid
0:02:40 > 0:02:47for the public services that they are providing.
0:02:47 > 0:02:49The firm had around 450 contracts with government,
0:02:49 > 0:02:52on top of private work and overseas projects.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55Some of those had been handed to the company after it issued
0:02:55 > 0:02:56profit warnings last year.
0:02:56 > 0:02:58Prime Minister, why were contracts awarded to Carillion
0:02:58 > 0:03:00despite the warnings?
0:03:00 > 0:03:03Labour and the unions wanted answers.
0:03:03 > 0:03:06Why did the Government not heed the warnings?
0:03:06 > 0:03:11Why did they continue to give billions of pounds of contracts
0:03:11 > 0:03:14to a company that the City were backing against in 2013?
0:03:14 > 0:03:22That's the real question.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25And it's emerged the firm's former chief executive, Richard Howson,
0:03:25 > 0:03:28who left the firm last year, received £1.5 million in pay
0:03:28 > 0:03:30and bonuses in 2016, while many ordinary employees face
0:03:30 > 0:03:33the prospect of being laid-off and a huge black hole
0:03:33 > 0:03:35in the company's pension scheme could result in their
0:03:35 > 0:03:39pensions being slashed.
0:03:39 > 0:03:42Subcontractors who hadn't been paid for weeks were warned they might get
0:03:42 > 0:03:45just 1p for every pound they are owed.
0:03:45 > 0:03:52Some warned that they too might go to the wall.
0:03:52 > 0:03:55We are not really a business of a size that can trade
0:03:55 > 0:03:57through that without some form of support from the Government.
0:03:57 > 0:04:00If it's not forthcoming, I think ourselves and lots of businesses
0:04:00 > 0:04:02like us will probably go out of business.
0:04:02 > 0:04:03In the wake of the collapse...
0:04:03 > 0:04:06For Labour though, this was not just about the failure of one company.
0:04:06 > 0:04:09By Monday night, Jeremy Corbyn had taken to social media.
0:04:09 > 0:04:13At Prime Minister's Questions, he pressed the point home.
0:04:13 > 0:04:15This is not one isolated case of government negligence
0:04:15 > 0:04:16and corporate failure.
0:04:16 > 0:04:21It is a broken system.
0:04:21 > 0:04:27Virgin and Stagecoach's management of East Coast Trains,
0:04:27 > 0:04:29Capita and Atos' handling of disability assessments,
0:04:29 > 0:04:32and security firm G4S's failure to provide security at the Olympics
0:04:32 > 0:04:35were all examples, according to Jeremy Corbyn, of the private
0:04:35 > 0:04:37sector failing the public sector.
0:04:37 > 0:04:42These corporations, Mr Speaker, need to be shown the door.
0:04:42 > 0:04:49We need our public services provided by public employees
0:04:49 > 0:04:54with a public service ethos and a strong public oversight.
0:04:54 > 0:04:58As the ruins of Carillion lie around her, will the Prime Minister
0:04:58 > 0:05:00act to end this costly racket?
0:05:00 > 0:05:04Theresa May pointed out it was the Blair and Brown
0:05:04 > 0:05:07governments that signed many of the big public-private
0:05:07 > 0:05:10partnership deals and she suspected there was something else behind
0:05:10 > 0:05:13the current Labour leadership's hostility to the private sector.
0:05:13 > 0:05:16But what Labour oppose isn't just a role for private companies
0:05:16 > 0:05:20in public services but the private sector as a whole.
0:05:20 > 0:05:24This is a Labour Party that has turned its back on investment,
0:05:24 > 0:05:27on growth, on jobs.
0:05:27 > 0:05:32A Labour Party that will always put politics before people.
0:05:32 > 0:05:35So, under a Labour government, how far would their
0:05:35 > 0:05:39nationalisation plans go?
0:05:39 > 0:05:41Would every binman, builder and even bankers have to be
0:05:41 > 0:05:48employed by the state?
0:05:48 > 0:05:51Carillion's collapses the big story of the week and it will continue to
0:05:51 > 0:05:55have political consequences I will talk through now at the panel. Tom
0:05:55 > 0:05:58Newton Dunn, presumably the caps of Carillion has prompted this promise
0:05:58 > 0:06:04from Theresa May that she will punish bosses who continue to take
0:06:04 > 0:06:08bonuses when they have black holes in the pension fund, is this
0:06:08 > 0:06:12something new?This is our expectation, the Prime Minister has
0:06:12 > 0:06:16acted dramatically as a response to the collapse of Carillion last week.
0:06:16 > 0:06:21The problem as I recall a party conference speech she gave in
0:06:21 > 0:06:25October, 2016, the citizens of nowhere, calling out a rotten
0:06:25 > 0:06:31corrupt apples across the country then, Philip Green who presided over
0:06:31 > 0:06:36the collapse of BHS, leaving a massive pensions black hole, an
0:06:36 > 0:06:40entire year and a bit has passed and no apparent government action. I
0:06:40 > 0:06:49fear Theresa May with the bold words in the new look Observer this
0:06:49 > 0:06:52morning, action today, still action tomorrow.It is what people want to
0:06:52 > 0:06:58hear?Certainly people do want to hear it, although they are amazed it
0:06:58 > 0:07:02has not happened before. Jeremy Corbyn is playing this beautifully.
0:07:02 > 0:07:07There is a much more worrying bigger picture here for the Conservatives.
0:07:07 > 0:07:13The opportunity they have created for Jeremy Corbyn to underline his
0:07:13 > 0:07:18case that unfettered free markets do not work and somehow or other
0:07:18 > 0:07:22Carillion symbolises everything that is wrong about the system, as we
0:07:22 > 0:07:26heard him say in the clip. I do not think most voters are particularly
0:07:26 > 0:07:30ideological, they just want things to work. But if the Government is
0:07:30 > 0:07:35seen to be incompetent on this scale, it creates a vacuum for the
0:07:35 > 0:07:41leader of the Labour Party to put an ideological spin on it and he is
0:07:41 > 0:07:44doing it very effectively.The Prime Minister is right when she says more
0:07:44 > 0:07:48of these PFI contracts were signed under Blair and Brown than under
0:07:48 > 0:07:53subsequent Tory governments, but now you have a Jeremy Corbyn Labour
0:07:53 > 0:07:57Party in opposition, they do not have to shoulder the blame for that?
0:07:57 > 0:08:00Jeremy Corbyn oppose them at the time. The late 1970s in reverse,
0:08:00 > 0:08:07that is what we are seeing. Bowman the minority Labour government being
0:08:07 > 0:08:11torn apart. Now we have a minority Conservative government being
0:08:11 > 0:08:16challenged by tidal waves which put them on the defensive all the time.
0:08:16 > 0:08:20We have not time to go through other examples, but just on this one,
0:08:20 > 0:08:26Theresa May is quite well equipped, as Tom said, from the beginning, she
0:08:26 > 0:08:29taught the language of intervention and corporate governments, coming
0:08:29 > 0:08:33after the bad people in the private sector, but because of the lack of
0:08:33 > 0:08:37action to follow it up and because Jeremy Corbyn genuinely believes in
0:08:37 > 0:08:42these things, it is much easier for him to swim with these tidal waves
0:08:42 > 0:08:46than her lead in this deeply pressurised minority government.We
0:08:46 > 0:08:50have been talking to all three of you through the programme, let us
0:08:50 > 0:08:55pick up on Carillion with the Shadow Attorney General, Labour's Shami
0:08:55 > 0:08:59Chakrabarti. Labour have been very critical of the Government's
0:08:59 > 0:09:01response to the collapse of Carillion, what would Labour have
0:09:01 > 0:09:06done differently this week if you had been in government?I think what
0:09:06 > 0:09:12we would do and what we will do, as soon as we are in government, is
0:09:12 > 0:09:17look in a far more fundamental way at PFI, outsourcing, and by the
0:09:17 > 0:09:23way...We will get on the principles of this, but if you had won the
0:09:23 > 0:09:27election in 2017, it would have been a Labour government handling the
0:09:27 > 0:09:30collapse, what would have been different in your response?We would
0:09:30 > 0:09:35not have left it so late, we would not have bailed out a company that
0:09:35 > 0:09:39already had raised serious warning signals in the City, we would not
0:09:39 > 0:09:47have allowed them to get into subcontracting with, for example,
0:09:47 > 0:09:51Cerco, worth millions of pounds, profit warnings against that company
0:09:51 > 0:09:56too.Cerco are a big government provider, should they be looking at
0:09:56 > 0:10:00all of their contracts with the likes of Cerco who have also issued
0:10:00 > 0:10:04profit warnings?You do have to look at all of the arrangements and the
0:10:04 > 0:10:08subcontracting arrangements. It is not because I am ideological leap
0:10:08 > 0:10:15opposed to the private sector, it will be smaller private sector
0:10:15 > 0:10:22companies suffering from nonpayment. Should the Government help? The man
0:10:22 > 0:10:25running the small business in the film saying they might go to the
0:10:25 > 0:10:29wall.Quite possibly. But with accountability. It is all very well
0:10:29 > 0:10:35for Mrs May to say she will sting the big executives, there has to be
0:10:35 > 0:10:38ministerial responsibility as well. One of my concerns is that when
0:10:38 > 0:10:44vital public services of a kind almost constitutional, for example,
0:10:44 > 0:10:49prisons, get contracted out, what you are actually devolving as
0:10:49 > 0:10:52ministerial responsibility, something goes terribly wrong, in a
0:10:52 > 0:10:57vital utility, a matter of security, infrastructure, and ministers, of
0:10:57 > 0:11:02whatever colour, put up their hands and say, it is wicked executives.
0:11:02 > 0:11:07What we need is ministerial responsibility, oversight, of course
0:11:07 > 0:11:12we want a thriving private sector, but some vital services need to be
0:11:12 > 0:11:16run by public servants and with ministers held to account.Sometimes
0:11:16 > 0:11:19when you hear Labour Shadow ministers talking, it sounds as
0:11:19 > 0:11:23though they want to take absolutely everything back into public
0:11:23 > 0:11:28ownership.That is not the case. I believe in a mixed economy and I
0:11:28 > 0:11:33know my colleagues do too but there are times when some things need to
0:11:33 > 0:11:37be in public hands. That will include on constitutional grounds
0:11:37 > 0:11:41talking about people's human rights, basic security, and it will also
0:11:41 > 0:11:45mean sometimes when you have a big organisation and outsourcing is used
0:11:45 > 0:11:51to grind down the working conditions of some workers and break down the
0:11:51 > 0:11:55sense of community solidarity.Where is it appropriate for private
0:11:55 > 0:12:00contracts?For example, there are some things that the private sector
0:12:00 > 0:12:03probably does better. When you're running a police force, you are
0:12:03 > 0:12:08unlikely to say, we will make the motorbikes for the police officers
0:12:08 > 0:12:12better than BMW. Maybe you will but I doubt it will happen any time
0:12:12 > 0:12:17soon.You need to look at this. What about cleaning in offices and police
0:12:17 > 0:12:23stations? Should that be run by the police or outsourced?Maybe
0:12:23 > 0:12:26hospitals are better example because cleanliness in a hospital is quite
0:12:26 > 0:12:31often a matter of life and death. Sometimes it is better even for
0:12:31 > 0:12:37something that seems not a core service like claiming to be in
0:12:37 > 0:12:42public hands. You need to look at this on a case-by-case basis.You do
0:12:42 > 0:12:46not have many examples of where it is appropriate for private companies
0:12:46 > 0:12:50to be involved. Prisons and probation, what about catering in
0:12:50 > 0:12:55prisons, does that have to be in public hands?What you want to do is
0:12:55 > 0:13:01look at the quality of the service, the quality of the conditions, for
0:13:01 > 0:13:06the people working there, and to see what would be best value for the
0:13:06 > 0:13:10public and for the public purse. It is not ideological, but in some
0:13:10 > 0:13:16cases, principles are at stake.We are left with the problem here of
0:13:16 > 0:13:18workers worried about pensions, working for Carillion and
0:13:18 > 0:13:23subcontractors who might not get paid. If the Government work to talk
0:13:23 > 0:13:27about putting taxpayers' money into helping out those people or those
0:13:27 > 0:13:31companies, would the Labour Party object?We would want to look at the
0:13:31 > 0:13:37conditions of spending public money? In principle? It is not the fault of
0:13:37 > 0:13:40the subcontracting small companies they will not get paid.Indeed, but
0:13:40 > 0:13:45if you decide to spend public money, for example, to help the smaller
0:13:45 > 0:13:52businesses, you want accountability in response. You
0:13:52 > 0:13:54in response. You might well want to legislate to give priority to
0:13:54 > 0:13:56pension funds, for example, over shareholders who have not done their
0:13:56 > 0:13:59job of corporate governance in these cases.Moving on to talk about
0:13:59 > 0:14:04something else, if you don't mind, the serial six attacker, this time
0:14:04 > 0:14:07last week we were sitting here talking about the fact the Justice
0:14:07 > 0:14:11Minister said he would launch a judicial review and now he will not
0:14:11 > 0:14:17because it has little chance of succeeding. Should the Government be
0:14:17 > 0:14:20pursuing a judicial review?My view at the time, I held my tongue about
0:14:20 > 0:14:25it because I am used to politicians wading in in a knee jerk way when
0:14:25 > 0:14:29there is a case of this kind, my view is that if there is to be a
0:14:29 > 0:14:33judicial review of the parole board decision, the best person to bring
0:14:33 > 0:14:37such a review would be a victim because the chances are their best
0:14:37 > 0:14:41arguments would be under the Human Rights Act which gives rights to
0:14:41 > 0:14:48victims and not to politicians. Crowdfunding attempt to raise money
0:14:48 > 0:14:50to do that perhaps?If the Justice Secretary wants to make a name for
0:14:50 > 0:14:54himself with this as a new Justice Secretary, he might better give his
0:14:54 > 0:14:59attentions to making sure the people have decent levels of legal aid so
0:14:59 > 0:15:02they can vindicate their rights under the Human Rights Act. In
0:15:02 > 0:15:05relation to the case of John Worboys and the crisis of public confidence,
0:15:05 > 0:15:10that it is in danger of creating, we could do with an end review of the
0:15:10 > 0:15:18whole case, from the moment a young woman
0:15:18 > 0:15:21woman went to the police and was not believed to the moment this release
0:15:21 > 0:15:23decision was made arguably with the lack of transparency and involvement
0:15:23 > 0:15:25of victims.He was prosecuted for offences against 12 women and we
0:15:25 > 0:15:28know there were almost 100 other women who came forward. The CPS said
0:15:28 > 0:15:32there was not enough evidence and they cannot revisit that decision,
0:15:32 > 0:15:36if there was not enough evidence then, there will not be enough now.
0:15:36 > 0:15:40I am not second-guessing the particular CPS decision is because I
0:15:40 > 0:15:43am not in a position to do that but there are issues for the whole
0:15:43 > 0:15:47system from the moment that a woman went to the police and was not
0:15:47 > 0:16:05treated with the respect she deserved, to victims.
0:16:05 > 0:16:09Kier Starmer was director of prosecutions at the time and he said
0:16:09 > 0:16:14he didn't have any involvement in the decision-making behind it.Nor
0:16:14 > 0:16:22did his predecessor.But he should have done, shouldn't he? He has
0:16:22 > 0:16:28prosecuted for only 12 cases, the DPP should be involved in that.My
0:16:28 > 0:16:38argument is this whole
0:16:44 > 0:16:47story on this whole case and the numbers of women involved and
0:16:47 > 0:16:49frankly the anxiety this decision has caused to women who weren't even
0:16:49 > 0:16:53victims means there needs to be an end to end review of how the system
0:16:53 > 0:16:55has worked in this case, from the moment a woman went to the police
0:16:55 > 0:16:57and was arguably not believed in was made without the input of victims
0:16:57 > 0:17:00who I would expect to be given notice and the opportunity to make
0:17:00 > 0:17:02representations to the parole board. There's a story running in the
0:17:02 > 0:17:05Sunday Times this morning about Momentum and saying they are trying
0:17:05 > 0:17:10to deselect 50 Labour MPs. The fact of the matter is whether have been
0:17:10 > 0:17:17Parliamentary selections, momentum candidates have... Do you think
0:17:17 > 0:17:24actually the Parliamentary Labour Party should better
0:17:25 > 0:17:28Party should better reflect Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party?Momentum is
0:17:28 > 0:17:35not prioritising the selection of some candidates over others. They
0:17:35 > 0:17:38are part of the Labour movement that has always had various strands
0:17:38 > 0:17:44within it. What is exciting to me is not exciting to the Sunday Times,
0:17:44 > 0:17:48fair enough, but we have a Democratic party becoming more
0:17:48 > 0:17:56democratic. I...There is still a massive disconnect between those who
0:17:56 > 0:18:00sit in Parliament and those who have joined since Jeremy Corbyn became
0:18:00 > 0:18:11leader.I think these things become exaggerated. I have noticed people
0:18:11 > 0:18:15uniting around purposes, not least the scandal around Carillion. I
0:18:15 > 0:18:21don't really spot this red Menace in the way other people do. It's a
0:18:21 > 0:18:25democratic party, and most popular movement of about 600,000 people and
0:18:25 > 0:18:30I think that something to be optimistic about.Thank you for
0:18:30 > 0:18:40talking to this morning.
0:18:40 > 0:18:45Momentum haven't been that successful so far.I think it has
0:18:45 > 0:18:49been overblown on the basis of the evidence. You quoted the procedure
0:18:49 > 0:18:54is taking place so far, they haven't prevailed that often and in the
0:18:54 > 0:18:58Sunday Times this morning they resorted to the example of Haringey
0:18:58 > 0:19:03Council where there are a lot of specific local issues. At this point
0:19:03 > 0:19:07it is unclear whether the selection will become the overwhelming theme
0:19:07 > 0:19:11over the next few years in the Labour Party. It might do but the
0:19:11 > 0:19:15evidence so far is it is much more nuanced than some papers are
0:19:15 > 0:19:22suggesting.Three new Momentum members on the NEC this morning, is
0:19:22 > 0:19:29it going to make a difference do you think?A huge difference because
0:19:29 > 0:19:31Corbyn and his wing of the party can now do precisely what they want, as
0:19:31 > 0:19:37long as they have the union muscle behind them during conference votes,
0:19:37 > 0:19:42then the party and any which way he wants to run it is his. I disagree
0:19:42 > 0:19:46with Steve, the difference in language Jeremy Corbyn and his close
0:19:46 > 0:19:52associates were using after the NEC elections this week on mandatory
0:19:52 > 0:19:58reselection is, Shami wasn't asked if she believed in them, Rebecca
0:19:58 > 0:20:05Long-Bailey was, and they refused to rule them out and say they were a
0:20:05 > 0:20:14bad thing. In my view, it is without doubt that Corbyn will at some stage
0:20:14 > 0:20:19try to reshape the Parliamentary party more in his image and you may
0:20:19 > 0:20:25argue why should he not do that. Shami was saying the party is much
0:20:25 > 0:20:31more united around Jeremy Corbyn and when we see a story like Carillion
0:20:31 > 0:20:36it is easier for him to get the backing of the Parliamentary party.
0:20:36 > 0:20:42I think that's right. How unpleasant and ugly and divisive is it to have
0:20:42 > 0:20:46the story is out, whether or not they are completely accurate or
0:20:46 > 0:20:51whoever is briefing, I think it looks very bad on the atmosphere of
0:20:51 > 0:20:55the Parliamentary party. Where I do think Shami has a good point is on
0:20:55 > 0:21:01the size of the Labour membership. 600,000, the Conservatives can only
0:21:01 > 0:21:12dream of getting a fraction of
0:21:12 > 0:21:14dream of getting a fraction of this, so clearly there is a big problem
0:21:14 > 0:21:16for the Tory party there in matching what Labour is doing.We should ask,
0:21:16 > 0:21:20mandatory reselection for Labour MPs, are you in favour, Shami?Any
0:21:20 > 0:21:24democratic process should be across the board and for everyone. Where
0:21:24 > 0:21:28MPs are doing a good job, including working with their membership, and
0:21:28 > 0:21:32you have to work with your membership to get the vote out in
0:21:32 > 0:21:35the Labour Party, that relationship works well and I think that
0:21:35 > 0:21:40relationship will only work better into the future. I have been all
0:21:40 > 0:21:48over the country to all sorts of CLPs campaigning, and you would be
0:21:48 > 0:21:52surprised at the number of places where there is a very happy
0:21:52 > 0:21:57relationship between the MP and the party regardless of the particular
0:21:57 > 0:21:59strand they come from.Thank you for that.
0:21:59 > 0:22:01Now, the Government's flagship Brexit legislation -
0:22:01 > 0:22:03the EU Withdrawal Bill - hasn't always had the easiest
0:22:03 > 0:22:07of times in the House of Commons, but this week, MPs voted to send it
0:22:07 > 0:22:09through for consideration in the House of Lords.
0:22:09 > 0:22:11A number of peers having expressed concern about the so-called Henry
0:22:11 > 0:22:14VIII powers the bill grants to ministers to make changes to some
0:22:14 > 0:22:15laws without parliamentary scrutiny.
0:22:15 > 0:22:17And of course, a number of peers are dismayed
0:22:17 > 0:22:19about the process of Brexit itself.
0:22:19 > 0:22:22So, are we likely to see more dramatic attempts to change
0:22:22 > 0:22:24the Bill in a chamber full of unelected lawmakers?
0:22:24 > 0:22:32Ellie Price has been taking their temperature.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36Stop Brexit!
0:22:36 > 0:22:39You'd think a bill that sought to enshrine EU law into British law
0:22:39 > 0:22:41after Brexit would be popular with the pro-Remain
0:22:41 > 0:22:43crowd in Parliament.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46But when the Withdrawal Bill cleared the Commons this week,
0:22:46 > 0:22:49one Tory Remain-supporting MP said he hoped the House of Lords would
0:22:49 > 0:22:52make an enormous amount of changes.
0:22:52 > 0:22:56Good lord, what are they up to?!
0:22:56 > 0:22:59I think what will happen is that the Government will suffer
0:22:59 > 0:23:03a series of defeats, which will reduce the power
0:23:03 > 0:23:06of ministers to do things without proper scrutiny,
0:23:06 > 0:23:10and put in place a sensible series of votes - both in Parliament
0:23:10 > 0:23:14and the people at the end of the process - so that when we do
0:23:14 > 0:23:16get an end point to Brexit, people can say that it's
0:23:16 > 0:23:21been done properly.
0:23:21 > 0:23:23So a second referendum is on the table?
0:23:23 > 0:23:25It's definitely on the table.
0:23:25 > 0:23:27You would expect a Lib Dem to say that, but some Tory
0:23:27 > 0:23:32peers want changes too.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35If it comes to the situation where it looks as if what people
0:23:35 > 0:23:37voted for cannot be delivered, then we have to decide how
0:23:37 > 0:23:42best to move forward.
0:23:42 > 0:23:46I don't believe the House of Lords is trying to block Brexit at all.
0:23:46 > 0:23:50I think what the House of Lords is doing is its constitutional duty.
0:23:50 > 0:23:53So anyone hoping the House of Lords will deliver a fatal blow to Brexit
0:23:53 > 0:23:58will be disappointed, but so too will anyone hoping
0:23:58 > 0:24:00that the Withdrawal Bill will come out of there unchanged.
0:24:00 > 0:24:05So what is all the fuss about?
0:24:05 > 0:24:07The extent of the Government taking powers to itself while giving
0:24:07 > 0:24:09powers to Parliament, Henry VIII powers, this issue,
0:24:09 > 0:24:12of course, about the kind of protections we've had under EU
0:24:12 > 0:24:14law that we've contributed to for consumer protection,
0:24:14 > 0:24:18workplace protection, environmental issues,
0:24:18 > 0:24:22they are coming into UK law and that's what this bill does
0:24:22 > 0:24:25but it needs to make sure they're protected in UK law; they can't just
0:24:25 > 0:24:27be overturned the next day.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30There has to be a mandatory process to do that.
0:24:30 > 0:24:33But this was the reaction when some elected MPs over in the Commons
0:24:33 > 0:24:34voted against aspects of the Withdrawal Bill,
0:24:34 > 0:24:38causing a government defeat.
0:24:38 > 0:24:40One of their own colleagues even talked of treachery.
0:24:40 > 0:24:45Another MP, Jacob Rees-Mogg, this week said the laws would face
0:24:45 > 0:24:48reform if it tried to frustrate the democratic will of the people.
0:24:48 > 0:24:56So is the chamber full of unelected Remainers playing with fire?
0:24:57 > 0:24:59Since I've been leader in the House of Lords,
0:24:59 > 0:25:01for just over two years, what I've found is every time
0:25:01 > 0:25:03someone doesn't agree with something we're doing,
0:25:03 > 0:25:05they will get quite hysterical about "take
0:25:05 > 0:25:08away their powers," it's almost an off-with-their-heads moment.
0:25:08 > 0:25:11But you know, there is quite prescribed powers we do,
0:25:11 > 0:25:12we take them seriously and responsibly, and,
0:25:12 > 0:25:15if there are changes we think should be made,
0:25:15 > 0:25:19we will send them back to the House of Commons.
0:25:19 > 0:25:21And even one of the lesser-spotted Brexit-supporting
0:25:21 > 0:25:22Lords isn't worried.
0:25:22 > 0:25:25There are a number of lords are in cahoots with Messrs Tusk
0:25:25 > 0:25:27and Juncker in trying to persuade the British people that they made
0:25:27 > 0:25:31a grave mistake when they voted to leave Brexit, and I have no doubt
0:25:31 > 0:25:33they will have a bit of fun doing that.
0:25:33 > 0:25:35But on the big issues, like whether we should
0:25:35 > 0:25:37have a second referendum, the Lords voted by a majority
0:25:37 > 0:25:41of more than 200 against that last year; or if you look at the Commons
0:25:41 > 0:25:44vote where the majority was over 200 against remaining in the single
0:25:44 > 0:25:47market and the customs union, I think the Lords will look
0:25:47 > 0:25:49to the elected House and do what they're good at,
0:25:49 > 0:25:51which is to consider the detail.
0:25:51 > 0:25:55Of course, one of the biggest differences between the Lords
0:25:55 > 0:25:57and Commons is the presence of nearly 200 crossbenchers -
0:25:57 > 0:26:00members who aren't in a party and don't take the whip,
0:26:00 > 0:26:02and they include some of the most distinguished legal
0:26:02 > 0:26:03minds in the country.
0:26:03 > 0:26:06And debate over the bill's constitutional implications may well
0:26:06 > 0:26:10lead to more than one showdown with the Commons.
0:26:10 > 0:26:14It's worth remembering that the Corporate Manslaughter
0:26:14 > 0:26:17and Corporate Homicide Bill went back and forth between the two
0:26:17 > 0:26:21Houses seven times only a few years ago, and that was just an aspect
0:26:21 > 0:26:24of the criminal justice system, it wasn't about the biggest decision
0:26:24 > 0:26:29this country is taking since 1945.
0:26:29 > 0:26:37So I think people need to be a little bit relaxed about that.
0:26:38 > 0:26:41Like the MPs on the Green benches of the Commons,
0:26:41 > 0:26:45the Lords on their red benches agreed to trigger Article 50.
0:26:45 > 0:26:48But the Lords, like the Commons, is split on what Brexit
0:26:48 > 0:26:51should actually look like.
0:26:51 > 0:26:55There may be some toing and froing, or ping-pong as it's known around
0:26:55 > 0:26:58here, but pretty much everyone agrees the Lords can't
0:26:58 > 0:27:00and won't block the bill, and it will go through,
0:27:00 > 0:27:05probably, by the end of May.
0:27:05 > 0:27:07Ellie Price reporting.
0:27:07 > 0:27:09Well, to discuss this, we're joined from Somerset
0:27:09 > 0:27:11by the MP Jacob Rees-Mogg.
0:27:11 > 0:27:15This week he was elected chair of the influential
0:27:15 > 0:27:16European Research Group, made up of Brexit-backing
0:27:16 > 0:27:17Conservative backbenchers.
0:27:17 > 0:27:25And in the studio, we're joined by Andrew Adonis.
0:27:25 > 0:27:27He's a Labour peer who resigned from his role as a Government
0:27:27 > 0:27:32adviser last month over its Brexit strategy.
0:27:32 > 0:27:36Lord Adonis, you have made your opposition to Brexit clear, recently
0:27:36 > 0:27:40describing it as a national list spasm that can be stopped. Do you
0:27:40 > 0:27:47think the EU Withdrawal Bill is the opportunity to stop Brexit?I agree
0:27:47 > 0:27:52this is the biggest decision the country will take since 1945. I do
0:27:52 > 0:27:57not think the Lords can stop it, this is an issue for the people. It
0:27:57 > 0:28:00started with the people in a referendum and my view is the final
0:28:00 > 0:28:04sites should go to the people. The critical issue over the coming
0:28:04 > 0:28:08months will be the relationship between the House of Lords and the
0:28:08 > 0:28:12House of Commons in seeing people have the final say.When you say
0:28:12 > 0:28:17people have the final say, you are talking about a second referendum?
0:28:17 > 0:28:23The first referendum on Mrs May's terms on departure of the EU, not a
0:28:23 > 0:28:26rerun of the referendum two years ago because when we have that we
0:28:26 > 0:28:32didn't know what the terms would be. We are a democracy, we engage the
0:28:32 > 0:28:37people, this is the biggest decision since 1945 and the people should
0:28:37 > 0:28:43have the final say.Let me bring in Jacob Rees-Mogg on that, you are
0:28:43 > 0:28:47confident we will have a Brexit deal that will look attractive to most of
0:28:47 > 0:28:50the electorate so presumably you wouldn't be too worried about the
0:28:50 > 0:28:55second referendum on the terms of the deal?I think the ambition of
0:28:55 > 0:29:00the Lords in putting forward a second referendum is to try to stop
0:29:00 > 0:29:04tax it, and Lord Adonis has been clear about that. He said only
0:29:04 > 0:29:08yesterday he wanted to delete all of the clauses of the Withdrawal Bill.
0:29:08 > 0:29:12We have had a referendum, then a general election where both main
0:29:12 > 0:29:16parties backed the referendum results. I think if somebody wants a
0:29:16 > 0:29:21second referendum they should win a general election first, campaigning
0:29:21 > 0:29:25for one, rather than getting unelected peers to use it as a
0:29:25 > 0:29:29stratagem to obstruct Brexit. It is noticeable Lord Adonis and others
0:29:29 > 0:29:39have not called for a second referendum on other things
0:29:39 > 0:29:41referendum on other things like the Scottish vote.Lord Adonis, you have
0:29:41 > 0:29:44sent you will make the Government's life an absolute misery over the EU
0:29:44 > 0:29:48Withdrawal Bill which sounds as if you are using it as a stick to beat
0:29:48 > 0:29:53a policy or a decision you don't like rather than your real role
0:29:53 > 0:29:56which is legislative scrutiny. There's a huge amount of scrutiny to
0:29:56 > 0:30:01do. The powers which ministers are given in this bill is without
0:30:01 > 0:30:04precedent in a single piece of legislation, they have order making
0:30:04 > 0:30:08powers over the whole sphere of legislation that was previously
0:30:08 > 0:30:11enshrined in European law so if the House of Lords doesn't pay attention
0:30:11 > 0:30:17to that it's not doing its job. Coming back to Jacob's remarks,
0:30:17 > 0:30:28Jacob himself has been a
0:30:30 > 0:30:33supporter of the second referendum. In the House of Commons in 2011 he
0:30:33 > 0:30:35himself set out a case for a referendum on the terms of departure
0:30:35 > 0:30:37from the European Union if the electorate voted first time around
0:30:37 > 0:30:41to set the process in train. Jacob is contradicting his own position.
0:30:41 > 0:30:47You are shaking your head, Jacob Rees-Mogg.
0:30:47 > 0:30:51That is simply inaccurate. There was a proposal for a referendum to begin
0:30:51 > 0:30:55a process of negotiating nonmembership, to give them a
0:30:55 > 0:31:00mandate, and he would come back with what he achieved, and there would be
0:31:00 > 0:31:04a referendum on the result. The Prime Minister decided to have a
0:31:04 > 0:31:11straightforward referendum, in or out. Lord Adonis is speaking about
0:31:11 > 0:31:15discussion before the referendum terms were set, then they were set,
0:31:15 > 0:31:18everyone knew what they were voting for, to leave the EU, it was clear
0:31:18 > 0:31:23that meant leaving the single market and the customs union. I put a dent
0:31:23 > 0:31:30Lord Adonis, he would not be calling for a second referendum had Remain
0:31:30 > 0:31:34won.That is completely untrue. We did not know what the terms were.
0:31:34 > 0:31:38The Conservative manifesto for the election before said we would stay
0:31:38 > 0:31:45in the single market. These are Jacob's words, in the House of
0:31:45 > 0:31:49Commons, in 2011, it might make sense to have the second referendum
0:31:49 > 0:31:52after the renegotiation is completed...He says he is talking
0:31:52 > 0:31:58about Cameron's renegotiation that he went to before.Exactly the same
0:31:58 > 0:32:02principle applies now. We are seeing the terms Mrs May is coming back
0:32:02 > 0:32:05with, it is absolutely right that people should have a safe and it
0:32:05 > 0:32:08should not be Jacob Rees Mogg and Brexit ideologues deciding what the
0:32:08 > 0:32:17terms are.The difficulty with this is that people decided in a
0:32:17 > 0:32:19referendum, the general election manifestos of both parties committed
0:32:19 > 0:32:23to carrying out the result of the referendum, if Lord Adonis wants to
0:32:23 > 0:32:27put his case forward, he should try to stand for election, something I
0:32:27 > 0:32:32do not think he has ever done, win a general election campaigning to
0:32:32 > 0:32:36reverse the result. Unelected peers should not try to frustrate the will
0:32:36 > 0:32:40of the British people, as now expressed in two Democratic votes.
0:32:40 > 0:32:44On that, you have been issuing some veiled threats this week, saying the
0:32:44 > 0:32:48House of Lords would get into difficulties if they try to
0:32:48 > 0:32:53frustrate Brexit, what do you mean by that?I think what Baroness Smith
0:32:53 > 0:32:58is saying is very sensible, the House of Lords will abide by the
0:32:58 > 0:33:01Constitutional conventions, it will look to revise, I have concerns
0:33:01 > 0:33:05about some of the Henry VIII powers myself, a perfectly reasonable thing
0:33:05 > 0:33:10for the Lords to look at in its normal constitutional role. But if
0:33:10 > 0:33:14the House of Lords gets into a 1909 position of peers against the
0:33:14 > 0:33:21people, the people win and the Lords need to be aware of that, they need
0:33:21 > 0:33:23to observe the constitutional norms and then everything will carry on.
0:33:23 > 0:33:26The Lords need to be aware that what might happen to them in those
0:33:26 > 0:33:31circumstances, that government could flood the Chamber with 200 new Tory
0:33:31 > 0:33:35peers?It is already pretty flooded, but yes, you would have to have a
0:33:35 > 0:33:40deluge on top of a flood. The House of Lords has to abide by the
0:33:40 > 0:33:43constitutional norms, otherwise the Prime Minister would be perfectly
0:33:43 > 0:33:47entitled to use reserve powers to create more peers. I hope that will
0:33:47 > 0:33:50not be necessary. This is a conditional, not something I am
0:33:50 > 0:33:55calling for.What he is doing is threatening the Lords, Brexit
0:33:55 > 0:33:58ideologues who will stop at nothing to get Brexit through without the
0:33:58 > 0:34:04people the final say. He is dodging the issue because nobody is talking
0:34:04 > 0:34:07about the House of Lords asserting itself against the people. The issue
0:34:07 > 0:34:12which it will come down to resist the House of Lords invites the House
0:34:12 > 0:34:15of Commons, Jacob and his colleagues, themselves to reach a
0:34:15 > 0:34:19decision again on the issue of whether they should have a
0:34:19 > 0:34:24referendum on the final terms. It is not anti-democratic, it is the
0:34:24 > 0:34:28proper expression of democracy and the House of Lords. It is something
0:34:28 > 0:34:33which Jacob himself has supported in the past, no longer convenient for
0:34:33 > 0:34:38him to recognise that fact, but people's past does catch up with
0:34:38 > 0:34:43them. Nigel Farage has come to support a referendum on Mrs May's
0:34:43 > 0:34:48Brexit deal because he realises it is inevitable. As people realise the
0:34:48 > 0:34:51gravity of this decision and the fact Parliament itself is not in a
0:34:51 > 0:34:56great place to take it because there has been a referendum. The case for
0:34:56 > 0:35:00a referendum on Mrs May's terms will be unstoppable and the House of
0:35:00 > 0:35:04Lords will play an important democratic role in inviting the
0:35:04 > 0:35:08House of Commons to reach a decision on that.Jacob Rees Mogg, it would
0:35:08 > 0:35:12be ironic if the British constitution is working its way with
0:35:12 > 0:35:15the House of Lords making its revisions sending it back to the
0:35:15 > 0:35:19Commons, for you to argue against that, when what you wanted was for
0:35:19 > 0:35:25us to take control back of our own government.I am all in favour of
0:35:25 > 0:35:28taking back control and decisions being made in the House of Commons
0:35:28 > 0:35:33with the Lords acting as a revising Chamber. You have to understand the
0:35:33 > 0:35:37motives, they are trying to obstruct Brexit. Lord Adonis said the
0:35:37 > 0:35:43decision to leave for is as big a mistake as appeasement in the 1930s,
0:35:43 > 0:35:48almost hysterical reaction to the Brexit decision, and they are using
0:35:48 > 0:35:53it as a strategy to frustrate Brexit. What they should do is not
0:35:53 > 0:35:56used the unelected Lords but they should campaign in a general
0:35:56 > 0:36:00election if they have to campaign to do it as the Labour Party notably
0:36:00 > 0:36:04didn't in 2017, to call for a second referendum and reverse the result,
0:36:04 > 0:36:08but they
0:37:23 > 0:37:27Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.
0:37:27 > 0:37:30Amid one final attempt to bring Stormont back,
0:37:30 > 0:37:32there's another deal politicians here are working on with
0:37:32 > 0:37:33Westminster - City Deals.
0:37:33 > 0:37:35Could giving more power to councils around Belfast
0:37:35 > 0:37:40and the North West prove to be the big economic game changer?
0:37:40 > 0:37:44Plus, Micheal Martin's support for abortion in the early stages
0:37:44 > 0:37:47of pregnancy was one of the shock moments of this week's Dail
0:37:47 > 0:37:50debate on the repeal of the Eighth Amendment.
0:37:50 > 0:37:52We'll be live in Dublin for analysis from the Irish Times'
0:37:52 > 0:37:53former political editor.
0:37:53 > 0:37:55And with me in the studio for their take on events
0:37:55 > 0:37:57are Professor Rick Wilford and Suzanne Breen of
0:37:57 > 0:38:05the Belfast Telegraph.
0:38:05 > 0:38:07Behind the big political battles of Stormont and Brexit,
0:38:07 > 0:38:13the work to get City Deals in place here is picking up pace.
0:38:13 > 0:38:15Last November the Chancellor said Belfast and surrounding council
0:38:15 > 0:38:18areas could work up a plan to get more power for economic growth
0:38:18 > 0:38:21and more control over public spending plans and it's hoped that
0:38:21 > 0:38:25a deal will be signed off this autumn.
0:38:25 > 0:38:27Derry and Strabane Council, meanwhile, has been fighting hard
0:38:27 > 0:38:30for a deal of its own.
0:38:30 > 0:38:32It didn't get a specific endorsement from the Chancellor -
0:38:32 > 0:38:34but politicians and business leaders point to a commitment
0:38:34 > 0:38:37from the former Secretary of State, James Brokenshire, in December
0:38:37 > 0:38:41that it will also get a City Deal.
0:38:41 > 0:38:45Councillor Deirdre Hargey is the chair of the Belfast City
0:38:45 > 0:38:48Council committee leading the work on the City Deal, and in our Foyle
0:38:48 > 0:38:51studio MLA Gary Middleton has been part of the lobbying efforts
0:38:51 > 0:38:56in the North West.
0:38:56 > 0:39:05Welcome to you both. What clear benefit his Belfast hoping for from
0:39:05 > 0:39:11a City Deal?We have set a target of bringing in an extra £1 billion of
0:39:11 > 0:39:15investment into the Belfast and the five surrounding council areas and I
0:39:15 > 0:39:19think this would have a massive opportunity to make real inclusive
0:39:19 > 0:39:26growth within the city and beyond in areas of skills and employability,
0:39:26 > 0:39:28in immersive tech and that you are digital infrastructure and bringing
0:39:28 > 0:39:32it up to the standards of companies within the city and surrounding
0:39:32 > 0:39:36areas, to compete on an international stage. I think this is
0:39:36 > 0:39:40a game changer, obviously only one element of an overall inclusive
0:39:40 > 0:39:44growth strategy that our city and surrounding areas are looking at but
0:39:44 > 0:39:48it is a massive game changer for success moving forward.In your
0:39:48 > 0:39:55view, does this depend on the restoration of devolution or not? In
0:39:55 > 0:39:59November, when it was first mooted, there seemed to be a suggestion from
0:39:59 > 0:40:03the Treasury that was the case? Obviously we want the institutions
0:40:03 > 0:40:09working, that would be good for everyone. The finance package would
0:40:09 > 0:40:12be a partnership between the British Government, the Executive and the
0:40:12 > 0:40:19local councils and authorities. We want a functioning executive but it
0:40:19 > 0:40:26has to be on the right terms and we're working on ensuring we are
0:40:26 > 0:40:30taking the steps.Do you still think a City Deal would be deliverable
0:40:30 > 0:40:33without a functioning executive?Yes because the department is how they
0:40:33 > 0:40:39are and if there is a lot will around everybody around key growth
0:40:39 > 0:40:42areas, in terms of propelling economic growth and dealing with
0:40:42 > 0:40:48poverty and deprivation and low skills and targeting jobs, then I
0:40:48 > 0:40:57think everyone could buy into that. In the North West, Gary Middleton,
0:40:57 > 0:41:00Belfast has a formal status of bidding for a City Deal with the
0:41:00 > 0:41:06powers that be in London, but the situation as well as Derry and
0:41:06 > 0:41:08Strabane Council and surrounding councils as you do not have that
0:41:08 > 0:41:15formal endorsement at this stage, how big of a drawback is that?Well,
0:41:15 > 0:41:19obviously we want to see Londonderry get a City Deal, that is a priority
0:41:19 > 0:41:25and I think we have political unity around that. There have been
0:41:25 > 0:41:30engagements in terms of recent weeks and we have in place strategic
0:41:30 > 0:41:34growth plans which we believe will road map significant investment in
0:41:34 > 0:41:38the North West. It will basically boost economic growth in
0:41:38 > 0:41:42productivity and employment. We have had recent positive discussions and
0:41:42 > 0:41:49we believe Londonderry is now ready for this.You have the endorsement
0:41:49 > 0:41:53of James Brokenshire, when he was Secretary of State, he has gone now
0:41:53 > 0:41:56and has been replaced by Karen Bradley. Have you spoken to her to
0:41:56 > 0:42:01see if she supports this bit? Absolutely, at a senior level, DUP
0:42:01 > 0:42:04MPs have been in constant negotiation and conversation with
0:42:04 > 0:42:07the Secretary of State and we have phrased it directly with her. And we
0:42:07 > 0:42:14do believe that Karen does believe City Deals are vital for the North
0:42:14 > 0:42:18West region. From our own perspective, we don't believe it is
0:42:18 > 0:42:22an either or, we believe Belfast and Londonderry can both benefit from
0:42:22 > 0:42:25City Deal that complement each other. Ultimately, when you look at
0:42:25 > 0:42:29the Foyle constituency and the high levels of deprivation and
0:42:29 > 0:42:35unemployment, it is vital we get our strategic growth plan in place. We
0:42:35 > 0:42:39are not starting in a position of zero, we start with a plan in place
0:42:39 > 0:42:45and we believe it can create jobs and have investment but we need to
0:42:45 > 0:42:47deliver on key infrastructure projects, which we have continually
0:42:47 > 0:42:57raised, the A5, the Athe airport and harbour, we are very positive and
0:42:57 > 0:43:03remain positive going into the future.In Gary Middleton's view,
0:43:03 > 0:43:08there is no competition between the two cities and regions. Are you
0:43:08 > 0:43:15nervous the North West is also bidding might steal your thunder?
0:43:15 > 0:43:21No, we welcome and inclusive Growth deal for Derry and the North West
0:43:21 > 0:43:26more generally, I think that enhances the past's case also
0:43:26 > 0:43:31because we are a small economy and if we're serious about propelling
0:43:31 > 0:43:36the private sector and looking at inclusive growth, so we let everyone
0:43:36 > 0:43:39up in society, then the more of the north that goes for these inclusive
0:43:39 > 0:43:44Growth Deals, the better. We would work in partnership with Derry and
0:43:44 > 0:43:47we will collaborate with them and look at synergies amongst our
0:43:47 > 0:43:52inclusive Growth Deals and I look forward to that partnership.DUP
0:43:52 > 0:43:55seems to claim credit that it is part of the deal with the Tories and
0:43:55 > 0:44:01that is what has led to particular movement. Do you have to recognise
0:44:01 > 0:44:06the fact that this is something that has come out of that deal in
0:44:06 > 0:44:10Westminster, which is maybe to the benefit of everybody here in
0:44:10 > 0:44:14Northern Ireland?I don't see it. We have been in discussions in the
0:44:14 > 0:44:18North West and in Belfast for nearly two years now, we have been engaging
0:44:18 > 0:44:23with the Executive and the British Government and have been working
0:44:23 > 0:44:28with institutions in the city, the university, the harbour, etc, and I
0:44:28 > 0:44:33do think it has been that push and that partnership that has got us to
0:44:33 > 0:44:40where we are today.Jeffrey Donaldson says it was not an issue
0:44:40 > 0:44:45of the non-Irish executive. The DUP recognises that City Deals would be
0:44:45 > 0:44:48good for Northern Ireland and we want to see them rolled out. He says
0:44:48 > 0:44:52they deserve the credit.I don't see that, the only deals I have seen
0:44:52 > 0:44:59come out of this are Confidence and Supply, which seems to be
0:44:59 > 0:45:02gerrymandering constituency areas. The City Deals we have been looking
0:45:02 > 0:45:06at have been through discussion and negotiation over two years, councils
0:45:06 > 0:45:11have been pushing them, certainly, but we do feel it is through our
0:45:11 > 0:45:14engagement with both Westminster and the Executive office because we do
0:45:14 > 0:45:18need departments here within the Executive to work behind us on this
0:45:18 > 0:45:22and get behind us. I feel it is through all of those partnerships,
0:45:22 > 0:45:25working, that we have come to this realisation. Because they know that
0:45:25 > 0:45:30the economic growth and deal with issues of poverty and deprivation,
0:45:30 > 0:45:36that is good for the economy.Do you see this as a DUP initiative above
0:45:36 > 0:45:42all else?Well, what I would say as we are aware that 20 City Deals have
0:45:42 > 0:45:45already been signed through the UK and we believe we need to be ready
0:45:45 > 0:45:48in terms of having a plan in place to allow us to go for a City Deal.
0:45:48 > 0:45:55As Jeffrey has alluded to, the fact we have a confident and supply
0:45:55 > 0:45:58arrangement, City Deals are able to be put clearly on the agenda, so we
0:45:58 > 0:46:00have that commitment for the first time, that City Deals will happen.
0:46:00 > 0:46:04And we believe there needs to be certainly one for Londonderry, as
0:46:04 > 0:46:08with Belfast, but we do not see this as a competition. I do believe it is
0:46:08 > 0:46:12helpful at this moment to create a competition, where we can try to
0:46:12 > 0:46:16find out who was the first to say it or deliver it, I believe we need to
0:46:16 > 0:46:20work together to ensure me to get City Deals for Northern Ireland. I
0:46:20 > 0:46:26think that is how we should go forward.The North West is pushing
0:46:26 > 0:46:32hard for investment, to bring jobs to Derry and the region but we also
0:46:32 > 0:46:35know there are threats from other cities with similar deals, there are
0:46:35 > 0:46:39issues, you said yourself, with transport shortcomings, it is a very
0:46:39 > 0:46:45market. Do you have a figure, Deidre mentioned £1 billion for Belfast in
0:46:45 > 0:46:51this region, what the figure you are looking for in the North West?
0:46:51 > 0:46:54Ultimately, our strategic growth plan identifies a figure of 3.4
0:46:54 > 0:47:01billion, Oliver infrastructure projects, of towns and cities,
0:47:01 > 0:47:05that's something we're working towards. In terms of the City Deal
0:47:05 > 0:47:07proposal, and we presented this is obviously to the Government in
0:47:07 > 0:47:12relation to the need for a £1.7 billion investment, we believe that
0:47:12 > 0:47:17would eliminate those in jobs and open up our economy in terms of
0:47:17 > 0:47:23transport access, collectivity and we need to get broadband
0:47:23 > 0:47:28connectivity as well. We have detailed this and I want to pay
0:47:28 > 0:47:32tribute to the local council and all who have prepared this worthwhile
0:47:32 > 0:47:35document. We look forward to going for with that in the future.Thank
0:47:35 > 0:47:42you. We have confirmation that Mary Lou McDonald is the only candidate
0:47:42 > 0:47:47to take over as president of Sinn Fein very soon. There will be no
0:47:47 > 0:47:51competition. Are you content with that?I think there was an open
0:47:51 > 0:47:55process within the party, in terms of people putting names for that,
0:47:55 > 0:47:58that concluded on Friday with just one nomination received, which was
0:47:58 > 0:48:03Mary Lou. And I think I was at a party meeting yesterday, at which
0:48:03 > 0:48:07that was announced, and there was a real positive feeling within the
0:48:07 > 0:48:10party. It's part of an overall tenure transition plan which Gerry
0:48:10 > 0:48:14Adams had set out last year. And this is a step in that transition
0:48:14 > 0:48:18plan. I think there is an upbeat mood within the party and I think
0:48:18 > 0:48:22it's a good move, Mary Lou is an excellent leader coming forward...
0:48:22 > 0:48:26You don't think the contest would have looked better?That is down to
0:48:26 > 0:48:36the party and
0:48:37 > 0:48:40those who their names forward. It is not unique to Sinn Fein, the parties
0:48:40 > 0:48:42have gone through similar processes and similar outcomes. We are going
0:48:42 > 0:48:45to be looking to a deputy leader soon. And that will be another
0:48:45 > 0:48:48process again but I think this is a good move for Sinn Fein and for
0:48:48 > 0:48:49Ireland as a whole.Thank you.
0:48:49 > 0:48:51Let's hear from my guests of the day, Professor Rick Wilford
0:48:51 > 0:48:53from Queen's University and Suzanne Breen from
0:48:53 > 0:48:56the Belfast Telegraph.
0:48:56 > 0:49:01Suzanne, let's talk about me really being confirmed at the only
0:49:01 > 0:49:04candidate for that leadership, which will be decided on the 10th of
0:49:04 > 0:49:08February. Would it have looked better if there had been a proper
0:49:08 > 0:49:12contest or does it not matter? , I think it is that that for a party
0:49:12 > 0:49:18with many ambitious members, a huge array of talent, particularly south
0:49:18 > 0:49:21of the border, nobody has appeared to want the leadership of the party.
0:49:21 > 0:49:26I would have thought Pearse Doherty was a good alternative candidate.I
0:49:26 > 0:49:30understand it could be for personal reasons, he has young children and
0:49:30 > 0:49:33commutes from Donegal to Dublin and it could be too much for him. Yes, I
0:49:33 > 0:49:37think there could be some criticism levelled at Sinn Fein that only one
0:49:37 > 0:49:42person contested the leadership that we have to remember that live here,
0:49:42 > 0:49:48I think I'm out of the six main parties, it is only... Arlene
0:49:48 > 0:49:53Foster, Peter Robinson did not, leadership was gifted to them, so I
0:49:53 > 0:49:57don't think we can criticise Sinn Fein without looking at the DUP and
0:49:57 > 0:50:02other parties too. What is different is the downside. Both Micheal Martin
0:50:02 > 0:50:04and Leo Varadkar faced leadership battles, so maybe that might be used
0:50:04 > 0:50:12against her down south.Time and again, there have not been contest
0:50:12 > 0:50:20for leadership.Coronations have become the norm. Five out of the six
0:50:20 > 0:50:26leaders in the North were uncontested.
0:50:27 > 0:50:31uncontested. I'm not sure, I certainly agree you should not' Sinn
0:50:31 > 0:50:36Fein for criticism on this issue. But I think what matters is the
0:50:36 > 0:50:38extent to which leaders are successful in bringing their party
0:50:38 > 0:50:43forward. The big issue here is to what extent, if any, Mary Lou
0:50:43 > 0:50:46McDonald is going to steer the boat in a different direction. She said
0:50:46 > 0:50:55yesterday, she could not fill Gerry Adams's shoes. Will she assumed the
0:50:55 > 0:51:00leadership in a pair of spiky stilettos or will she be more
0:51:00 > 0:51:03softly, softly, so a kitten heeled approach to leadership. But she has
0:51:03 > 0:51:10a lot of challenges with the abortion issue and elections and the
0:51:10 > 0:51:12talks up here, which she will have a role, no doubt, so she stepping in
0:51:12 > 0:51:19at the deep end. A very challenging period for Northern Ireland.That
0:51:19 > 0:51:24brings us to the other issue I wanted to talk about, fresh talks
0:51:24 > 0:51:27announced by Karen Bradley starting on Wednesday, short, sharp process,
0:51:27 > 0:51:34she says, aimed at delivering based Stormont project again. What chance
0:51:34 > 0:51:37of success?Nobody I have spoken to across a wide range of parties
0:51:37 > 0:51:41believes there will be a deal within the next two weeks. I think this
0:51:41 > 0:51:47process will drag on and on and the talks will extend beyond the
0:51:47 > 0:51:52fortnight. Gregory Campbell told me on Friday that chances were not
0:51:52 > 0:51:56great for a deal, there has been speculation that Sinn Fein might be
0:51:56 > 0:52:03motivated to have something in place on the 10th of February, Gerry Adams
0:52:03 > 0:52:07is finally departing the stage but the private positions of the parties
0:52:07 > 0:52:13at the same as the current public positions, and if that's the case,
0:52:13 > 0:52:20there is little hope.If you are looking for optimism, you could see
0:52:20 > 0:52:25your interview ten days ago with Leo Varadkar when he said it would be a
0:52:25 > 0:52:30hard sell off there was a deal, you can infer from that that maybe there
0:52:30 > 0:52:32is a possibility. I thought it was interesting that Gerry Adams said
0:52:32 > 0:52:39yesterday that we must challenge Unionists and we also have to
0:52:39 > 0:52:44challenge ourselves and our base, in terms of the development of the
0:52:44 > 0:52:48party. I wondered whether I might be reading too much between the lines
0:52:48 > 0:52:53here but I wonder if you put those two comments together, you might
0:52:53 > 0:52:58infer that it is a glimmer of light but there is no vaulting ambition.
0:52:58 > 0:53:03People I have spoken to, their mood is very downbeat.We leave it there
0:53:03 > 0:53:06for now.
0:53:06 > 0:53:07Thanks both.
0:53:07 > 0:53:10And now with a look back at another busy week in the political world,
0:53:10 > 0:53:16here's Stephen Walker.
0:53:16 > 0:53:19Sinn Fein MP Barry McElduff resigned over his controversial Kingsmill
0:53:19 > 0:53:27video. No that I offer an apology to the families and the wider community
0:53:27 > 0:53:33for consequences of the video. A new short talks process was announced by
0:53:33 > 0:53:37the Secretary of State.It has become clear to me that time is
0:53:37 > 0:53:41short. One last opportunity to reach agreement remains.We need focus and
0:53:41 > 0:53:47pressure. And an understanding and context to allow the party to work
0:53:47 > 0:53:52together.Parties also appeared keen to seek resolution.We must use this
0:53:52 > 0:53:59time wisely. We have set out the issues that need to be resolved.It
0:53:59 > 0:54:05needs to be a balance to deal, capable of being supported.If
0:54:05 > 0:54:08Stormont doesn't return, might a citizens Assembly fill the void? ? I
0:54:08 > 0:54:14believe there should be used to review, and revitalise the Good
0:54:14 > 0:54:21Friday Agreement, to get new institutions reformed.
0:54:21 > 0:54:24When the leader of Fianna Fail, Micheal Martin, said on Thursday
0:54:24 > 0:54:26that he supported legalising abortion in the early
0:54:26 > 0:54:28months of pregnancy, one TD reportedly said it would lead
0:54:28 > 0:54:31to Mr Martin being "lynched" by his colleagues.
0:54:31 > 0:54:34It underlines the significance of what Mr Martin did and what's
0:54:34 > 0:54:37at stake for people on both sides of the abortion debate.
0:54:37 > 0:54:40TDs are currently discussing the repeal of the Eighth Amendment -
0:54:40 > 0:54:42which recognises the equal right to life of the mother
0:54:42 > 0:54:45and her unborn child - and it's expected the Government
0:54:45 > 0:54:50will put the matter to the Irish people
0:54:50 > 0:54:52in a referendum in May or June.
0:54:52 > 0:54:54The former political editor of the Irish Times, Stephen Collins,
0:54:54 > 0:54:57joins me from Dublin.
0:54:57 > 0:54:59Micheal Martin previously described himself as pro-life -
0:54:59 > 0:55:04so clearly not expected.
0:55:04 > 0:55:12What are the consequences for him and his party at this move?
0:55:13 > 0:55:18He has taken a political risk and surprised most of his own TTs and
0:55:18 > 0:55:24senators by this line. But the party is good at having a free vote, so
0:55:24 > 0:55:28he, like the other TDs in Fianna Fail is entitled to his views on
0:55:28 > 0:55:33this issue. There has been support of deleting the Eighth Amendment and
0:55:33 > 0:55:38in support of the planned by the committee to allow access to
0:55:38 > 0:55:43abortion up to 12 weeks. The ground had been paved but a lot of his TDs
0:55:43 > 0:55:46were initially shocked and surprised. A number said they would
0:55:46 > 0:55:51take a different view. So far, there has been no real vote in Fianna Fail
0:55:51 > 0:55:55because people are allowed to express their own views. At the most
0:55:55 > 0:56:00recent party conference, in October, there was overwhelming support for
0:56:00 > 0:56:04retaining the Eighth Amendment. It was designed after all by Fianna
0:56:04 > 0:56:08Fail in the first place and the party faithful still believe it
0:56:08 > 0:56:13should remain. Micheal Martin is taking a risk but I think he has
0:56:13 > 0:56:16decided to move because Ireland is changing and opinion polls show
0:56:16 > 0:56:20there is possibly a majority for a change and he doesn't want to be
0:56:20 > 0:56:24left isolated as a backward looking party and is taking this big
0:56:24 > 0:56:29decision in that context.Quite a challenge for the Taoiseach leader,
0:56:29 > 0:56:35Leo Varadkar, who said publicly it is critical beta date is conducted
0:56:35 > 0:56:39appropriately and that he finds the correct wording for the referendum
0:56:39 > 0:56:44question itself.Yes, Leo Varadkar has been moving slowly and nobody
0:56:44 > 0:56:47doubts that he wants to go ahead with removing the Eighth Amendment
0:56:47 > 0:56:51and replacing it with what the committee recommended, allowing
0:56:51 > 0:56:55access to abortion up to 12 weeks. I think he wants to get to that
0:56:55 > 0:56:59position but he is moving slowly, trying to bring as many waverers
0:56:59 > 0:57:03with him because there are the Niguel senators who will not be very
0:57:03 > 0:57:07happy with this either but he is trying to bring as many of them
0:57:07 > 0:57:14along he can. -- the
0:57:18 > 0:57:26along he can. -- the Fine Gael. There has been talk of courts, which
0:57:26 > 0:57:31may fuel opposition but so far, the fact that both parties are allowing
0:57:31 > 0:57:36a free vote, we have had a debate in the Dail and the Senate and it was
0:57:36 > 0:57:40pretty civilised. People expected it to be bitter and divisive and that
0:57:40 > 0:57:47did not happen. People had different views but did not get involved in
0:57:47 > 0:57:52personalised debate.Very briefly, what about Sinn Fein in all of this?
0:57:52 > 0:57:56A party which will have a new leader soon?Yes, Sinn Fein in some ways
0:57:56 > 0:58:02was a little behind on this. The party didn't have a position of
0:58:02 > 0:58:05repealing the Eighth Amendment but whether or not they would support
0:58:05 > 0:58:08access to abortion is an open question. I think the party will
0:58:08 > 0:58:14awaken other parties, De La Rue members who have expressed strong
0:58:14 > 0:58:21opposition in the past, so I think Sinn Fein, like other parties, will
0:58:21 > 0:58:26have difficulties. It is not in their tradition to allow free votes
0:58:26 > 0:58:31so we will need to see if they go down that road.
0:58:31 > 0:58:31Stephen Collins, thank you.
0:58:31 > 0:58:34And let's have a final word with Rick Wilford and Suzanne Breen.
0:58:34 > 0:58:42Quite a shift on the part of Micheal Martin.
0:58:45 > 0:58:51Wherever you look in the world on this debate, referendums tend to
0:58:51 > 0:58:57become divisive and emotive. If you go back to an early debate in the
0:58:57 > 0:59:02Assembly in the early 2000, some of the rhetoric by the anti-abortion
0:59:02 > 0:59:08MLAs then was really colourful, to say the least. So, it is a divisive
0:59:08 > 0:59:15issue which divides parties. Micheal Martin was persuaded by the evidence
0:59:15 > 0:59:21he saw on the basis of the committee report rather than reverting to a
0:59:21 > 0:59:25kind of emotional spasm or response and I think that was encouraging.
0:59:25 > 0:59:29Were you surprised by Micheal Martin's change of heart?I think it
0:59:29 > 0:59:33is very courageous and he has one eye on the opinion polls and in some
0:59:33 > 0:59:36ways Fianna Fail goes into the referendum with the best of both
0:59:36 > 0:59:39worlds because a lot of their rural representatives are anti-abortion
0:59:39 > 0:59:45and anti-repeal and yet they have a leader who is pro-repeal. So they
0:59:45 > 0:59:49can appeal to both sides of the electorates and in future elections.
0:59:49 > 0:59:53His speech was carefully crafted and no one can argue when he said there
0:59:53 > 0:59:56is abortion in Ireland whether they like it or not. All we're doing is
0:59:56 > 1:00:01exporting the problem and women are buying pills online. I think what he
1:00:01 > 1:00:04said had implications and what happens down south could have huge
1:00:04 > 1:00:09implications up here. If we see abortion available down south, up to
1:00:09 > 1:00:1412 weeks, we will find women instead of going to London heading down to
1:00:14 > 1:00:19Dublin and what with that say? People would think the south was
1:00:19 > 1:00:24being more progressive than the North.
1:00:24 > 1:00:26Welcome back. North.
1:00:26 > 1:00:28Now, the Ukip leader, Henry Bolton, faces his party's
1:00:28 > 1:00:31ruling body later today, who will decide whether they think
1:00:31 > 1:00:34he should be sacked after less than four months into the job.
1:00:34 > 1:00:37The showdown comes after a week of damaging headlines
1:00:37 > 1:00:40about his private life.
1:00:40 > 1:00:4254-year-old Henry Bolton met 25-year old Jo Marney
1:00:42 > 1:00:50at a Ukip party last month.
1:00:54 > 1:00:57He left his wife on 23rd December and spent Boxing Day
1:00:57 > 1:00:58with the former model.
1:00:58 > 1:01:00Last weekend, the Mail on Sunday revealed that Ms Marney had sent
1:01:00 > 1:01:02racist text messages about Prince Harry's
1:01:02 > 1:01:03fiance, Meghan Markle.
1:01:03 > 1:01:06She said Harry's black American fiance would taint the royal family
1:01:06 > 1:01:09with her seed and pave the way for the way for a black king.
1:01:09 > 1:01:11On Monday, she was suspended from Ukip.
1:01:11 > 1:01:13Mr Bolton said he would end the romantic element
1:01:13 > 1:01:14of the relationship.
1:01:14 > 1:01:16But just two days later, they were spotted having dinner at
1:01:16 > 1:01:18a swanky restaurant in Westminster.
1:01:18 > 1:01:19She later went back to his flat.
1:01:19 > 1:01:23But Mr Bolton insists that was just to collect her bags and he provided
1:01:23 > 1:01:27a taxi receipt to prove it.
1:01:27 > 1:01:30He says he still loves her, it was "the happiest I've been
1:01:30 > 1:01:33in years" during their whirlwind romance and hasn't ruled out
1:01:33 > 1:01:35re-kindling the relationship.
1:01:35 > 1:01:35And Henry Bolton joins us now.
1:01:35 > 1:01:41Can you rekindle your relationship with the woolly executive? What do
1:01:41 > 1:01:47you expect the outcome of the meeting will be? -- with the
1:01:47 > 1:01:52executive.The meeting was set up to discuss the present situation. They
1:01:52 > 1:01:55may decide to have a vote of no-confidence and if they do and it
1:01:55 > 1:02:01goes against me, it goes to the membership.You could at that point
1:02:01 > 1:02:04say, the National Executive Committee do not have confidence in
1:02:04 > 1:02:09the do, I had better stand down.I could do, but I will not. There are
1:02:09 > 1:02:13number of elements here, the most important is the NEC should have its
1:02:13 > 1:02:17eye on the political poll, the need for the party get itself on its feet
1:02:17 > 1:02:22and deliver an effective message in terms of the Brexit debate and how
1:02:22 > 1:02:28policies shape for the UK post-Brexit -- the political ball.
1:02:28 > 1:02:32They will probably also have questions about your personal life,
1:02:32 > 1:02:38and this is an opportunity for clear this up. On Monday, you told us your
1:02:38 > 1:02:42romantic relationship with Jo Marney was over and then you were seen
1:02:42 > 1:02:47having dinner together and on the tube going home after dinner, is the
1:02:47 > 1:02:51relationship over?I am not going to go into the details. That
1:02:51 > 1:02:57relationship in terms of the party is now over, Ms Marney has resigned.
1:02:57 > 1:03:00She was suspended.She resigned as of yesterday. She made an apology to
1:03:00 > 1:03:04the members yesterday for the embarrassment caused and any
1:03:04 > 1:03:08disruption and problems caused for the party. I think that draws a line
1:03:08 > 1:03:15under that.It doesn't because you said publicly on Monday that the
1:03:15 > 1:03:18relationship was over and then you are seen having dinner with somebody
1:03:18 > 1:03:25who's views, and she has revealed, she had to apologise for, if you
1:03:25 > 1:03:30judge someone by the company you keep, you should not have dinner
1:03:30 > 1:03:34with her.We have information out in the public domain that shows, that
1:03:34 > 1:03:39proves, there is an insurgency going on within the party. Some of that
1:03:39 > 1:03:44information came from her, in addition, she had a number of death
1:03:44 > 1:03:47threat she wanted to discuss and she did have to collect things from my
1:03:47 > 1:03:53apartment. That is all done.You will not be having dinner with her
1:03:53 > 1:03:58again?I may do. The romantic element is over. It would be inhuman
1:03:58 > 1:04:03to simply walk away and cut the link entirely. I will not do that.This
1:04:03 > 1:04:06is someone who has embarrassed the party and the leadership by sending
1:04:06 > 1:04:13racist messages about Meghan Markle but you think it is appropriate for
1:04:13 > 1:04:16you to continue?I have for the content of the messages, they are
1:04:16 > 1:04:23appalling, and she has admitted that. -- I abhor the content of the
1:04:23 > 1:04:29messages. My job is to get the party on its feet. At the moment, everyone
1:04:29 > 1:04:33is talking about Brexit, but actually, leaving the EU is not the
1:04:33 > 1:04:37point, the point is getting back our independence for this country in
1:04:37 > 1:04:42every area of administration, that has been the objective.There are
1:04:42 > 1:04:45lots of people who did not know you were the leader of Ukip until this
1:04:45 > 1:04:51hit the front pages! You have not been doing a great job of getting
1:04:51 > 1:04:55Ukip into the Brexit debate and instead this relationship has
1:04:55 > 1:04:58brought the party in to distribute and surely if you want this to be
1:04:58 > 1:05:04about the politics, you should stand down? -- brought the party into
1:05:04 > 1:05:08disrepute.I am delivering the message now, we have an agenda to
1:05:08 > 1:05:15move forward in terms of internal reform to build the solid base. But
1:05:15 > 1:05:19it is necessary, they have been neglected. They need to be rebuilt
1:05:19 > 1:05:23and then we can move forward politically. That is my core
1:05:23 > 1:05:26purpose. Any other debate is a distraction and I will not let
1:05:26 > 1:05:30myself get drawn down that route. She has left the party, we move
1:05:30 > 1:05:35forward.Your behaviour started the debate.Are we not talking about
1:05:35 > 1:05:40this leadership thing being a moral court as to what the state of my
1:05:40 > 1:05:44marriage and personal relationships is? What is important to the nation
1:05:44 > 1:05:48and the voters under 17.4 million people who voted to leave the EU is
1:05:48 > 1:05:51that this country gets its independence back from Brussels and
1:05:51 > 1:05:55that we can move forward on that basis.You are suggesting we should
1:05:55 > 1:05:59not have a period moral debate about whether it was right for you to
1:05:59 > 1:06:06leave your wife or have a much younger girlfriend, people are upset
1:06:06 > 1:06:10about you keeping company with someone who has sent offensive and
1:06:10 > 1:06:13racist messages and this is someone you want to continue having some
1:06:13 > 1:06:20kind of relationship with and that questions your judgment -- prurient
1:06:20 > 1:06:25moral debate.I do not think that it is good for British politics at all
1:06:25 > 1:06:28or the nation to start focusing on someone's domestic affairs rather
1:06:28 > 1:06:33than the politics they are delivering. With this country, we
1:06:33 > 1:06:39need to work hard, this party needs to work hard to unite the various
1:06:39 > 1:06:41leave campaigns, to mobilise them and take forward the cause for
1:06:41 > 1:06:45independence and that is what I am absolutely determined to do and I am
1:06:45 > 1:06:50not going to let this party be disrupted by internal squabbling
1:06:50 > 1:06:53which has exploited my own domestic situation in order to cause
1:06:53 > 1:07:00problems.You have said in your leadership election that it would
1:07:00 > 1:07:04cripple Ukip, why? -- you said the new leadership election would
1:07:04 > 1:07:10cripple Ukip, why?It would take months, it would take us off the
1:07:10 > 1:07:13battlefield for the Brexit debate. We cannot afford to do that
1:07:13 > 1:07:18politically. At the same time, the resulting in fighting would give our
1:07:18 > 1:07:22political enemies ammunition to pull the party apart. The party, if the
1:07:22 > 1:07:26NEC makes the wrong decision today, the party will start doing that in
1:07:26 > 1:07:30itself. Politically, this party cannot afford to have a leadership
1:07:30 > 1:07:34election now.Just to be clear, regardless of whether or not the NEC
1:07:34 > 1:07:44vote to have comments in you, you will try to have confidence in you.
1:07:44 > 1:07:50I will remain in contact.Thank you, Henry Bolton. Henry Bolton says he
1:07:50 > 1:07:58wants to refocus us onto the politics of Ukip, away from his
1:07:58 > 1:08:02critical life -- personal life, do you think there is any chance?It is
1:08:02 > 1:08:06so depressing. We should be past the stage where we hold politicians so
1:08:06 > 1:08:10morally to account. I don't care about Henry Bolton's love life, it
1:08:10 > 1:08:14is not my business. I care about the fact it is the only thing I know
1:08:14 > 1:08:19about him and his leadership of the UK Independence Party at the moment.
1:08:19 > 1:08:24I do not mean to be rude, Henry, but I think you are finished, Ukip is
1:08:24 > 1:08:28finished, the sooner you accept that, the better for all the people
1:08:28 > 1:08:33who care about Brexit and the delivery of Brexit because right now
1:08:33 > 1:08:37you cannot focus on that, you are too busy, too distracted, sorting
1:08:37 > 1:08:41out this mess in your private life. Now Nigel Farage and Arron Banks are
1:08:41 > 1:08:46talking about a new movement, separate to Ukip. Is it time to put
1:08:46 > 1:08:50the party to bed and start something new?That will be dependent on the
1:08:50 > 1:08:54decision that NEC makes this afternoon. If they decide to keep me
1:08:54 > 1:08:58as leader, we will be able to move forward with the agenda of reform we
1:08:58 > 1:09:04have been talking about. If it takes another course of action, I suspect
1:09:04 > 1:09:08Isabel is right. It is a difficult challenge, absolutely, but that only
1:09:08 > 1:09:13chance for the party is to continue as it is in the present agenda of
1:09:13 > 1:09:17reforms I have initiated and taking forward. If we do not do that, quite
1:09:17 > 1:09:24frankly, I think Isabel is correct. Tom Newton Dunn?I think Ukip does
1:09:24 > 1:09:29have a future. I disagree a tiny bit with Isabel. If only it can somehow
1:09:29 > 1:09:37stay together until Theresa May finally does the deal with the EU
1:09:37 > 1:09:4227. There will be compromises in the deal, there may be payment of access
1:09:42 > 1:09:46to the single market for financial services, although Theresa May will
1:09:46 > 1:09:50not call it that. It will be some form of a fudge simply because it
1:09:50 > 1:09:55has to be. We heard Emmanuel Macron this morning, holding with Angela
1:09:55 > 1:09:59Merkel's hardline of no cherry picking. Ukip Ozma opportunity to be
1:09:59 > 1:10:12the hard-core Brexit fighters -- Ukip's opportunity. They have to
1:10:12 > 1:10:16stay, crucially, alive until that point. Personally, for Mr Bolton, I
1:10:16 > 1:10:22have a terrible feeling he will lose his job and girlfriend after this. A
1:10:22 > 1:10:25terrible individual tragedy.Steve Richards, is it necessary there is a
1:10:25 > 1:10:30voice, whether from Arron Banks, and Nigel Farage, whether it continues
1:10:30 > 1:10:36to be Ukip, is there not a wing of the Tory party, Jacob Rees-Mogg
1:10:36 > 1:10:39earlier, are they not doing the job of holding the Government to account
1:10:39 > 1:10:45and making sure they get the kind of Brexit they think people voted for?
1:10:45 > 1:10:50Partly. Some Brexit voters went to Labour because their concerns about
1:10:50 > 1:10:54being left behind were partly addressed by the Labour manifested
1:10:54 > 1:10:59at the last election. It is also about the credibility of the voice.
1:10:59 > 1:11:04The problem Ukip has had over the last 18 months is that all political
1:11:04 > 1:11:09parties are fragile, the theme of the programme today, the other big
1:11:09 > 1:11:13ones all, but when you have all of these leadership contest, all
1:11:13 > 1:11:16triggered by wacky absurd circumstances, the degree to which
1:11:16 > 1:11:23weightiness and credibility is taken away is such that it is difficult
1:11:23 > 1:11:27for a party to recover. I am with Isabel, it has reached the point
1:11:27 > 1:11:32where even though Brexit is this golden opportunity for Ukip, it has
1:11:32 > 1:11:37imploded to such an extent I cannot see how it pulls back.Would you
1:11:37 > 1:11:41welcome the return of Nigel Farage to the political scene?I would
1:11:41 > 1:11:46always welcome his return, he livens up political debate, nobody can
1:11:46 > 1:11:48doubt his passion for ensuring Brexit is delivered in the way
1:11:48 > 1:11:53voters who backed that in the referendum envisaged. There is
1:11:53 > 1:11:58clearly a vacuum. Bring it on, I say.You think it is serious, the
1:11:58 > 1:12:02idea him and Arron Banks might start something new?I do not know about
1:12:02 > 1:12:06Arron Banks but I know Nigel Farage has the appetite, he is extremely
1:12:06 > 1:12:10worried about the fate of Brexit and whether there will be some great
1:12:10 > 1:12:13betrayal of voters and I know he is thinking very carefully about what
1:12:13 > 1:12:18to do next.Would that worried the Prime Minister, if Nigel Farage was
1:12:18 > 1:12:24to come back central stage?This Brexit deal is going to disappoint
1:12:24 > 1:12:32lots of people who voted Brexit. There is political space there for a
1:12:32 > 1:12:37harder Brexit political force. But it has to have the other ingredients
1:12:37 > 1:12:40of weightiness, credibility and coherence that Ukip always struggled
1:12:40 > 1:12:45with.Quick word. It has to have a very persuasive narrator and Nigel
1:12:45 > 1:12:53Farage, like I'm or loathe him, there has been no politician in the
1:12:53 > 1:12:56current generation who can put forward a more persuasive case than
1:12:56 > 1:13:02Nigel Farage. If he comes back, very bad news for the government.Thank
1:13:02 > 1:13:06you very much to the panel and my guests today.
1:13:06 > 1:13:09And before we go, there's just time to tell you about a new podcast -
1:13:09 > 1:13:11Prime Minister's Questions with Andrew Neil.
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