:00:36. > :00:38.Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:39. > :00:41.So after protracted negotiations, David Cameron has finally named
:00:42. > :00:44.the day when voters will decide whether or not the United Kingdom
:00:45. > :00:56.The Prime Minister said the country would be "safer,
:00:57. > :00:59.stronger and better off" by staying in a reformed European Union -
:01:00. > :01:02.on the terms he agreed with EU leaders in Brussels late
:01:03. > :01:09.But about a quarter of the ministers who sit with Mr Cameron
:01:10. > :01:14.They've said they'll campaign for the UK to leave.
:01:15. > :01:17.We'll be talking to one of those wanting out, Leader of the House
:01:18. > :01:23.We'll be deliberating over which way this man will swing.
:01:24. > :01:30.The Mayor of London has apparently been "agonising" over his decision,
:01:31. > :01:32.although apparently all the smart money's on him supporting
:01:33. > :01:43.The party wants to stay in the EU, arguing it will be better for jobs,
:01:44. > :01:53.We'll be joined by the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hillary Benn.
:01:54. > :01:55.And with me, three of Fleet Street's finest, who've survived
:01:56. > :02:02.Nick Watt, Melanie Phillips and Tom Newton Dunn.
:02:03. > :02:07.So David Cameron's done a deal and named the date.
:02:08. > :02:15.Not everyone's convinced, even one of the Prime Minister's
:02:16. > :02:18.best Cabinet buddies, Michael Gove, has decided to campaign
:02:19. > :02:23.Both camps, those who want to stay in the EU and those who want
:02:24. > :02:25.to leave have come out all guns blazing this morning.
:02:26. > :02:28.Let's hear what David Cameron had to say on the Marr show
:02:29. > :02:34.If we remain in a reformed EU, you know what you will get communal how
:02:35. > :02:39.to do business, create jobs, continue with our economic recovery.
:02:40. > :02:43.If we leave, seven years potentially of uncertainty and at the end of
:02:44. > :02:48.that process you still cannot be certain that our businesses will
:02:49. > :02:51.have full access to the market. So it could cost jobs, mean overseas
:02:52. > :02:56.companies not investing in Britain. It would be a step into the dark, a
:02:57. > :02:59.real risk of uncertainty. And that is the last thing we need in our
:03:00. > :03:00.country now. Let's talk now to the BBC's
:03:01. > :03:08.Political Editor, Laura Kuenssberg. The town and the language has
:03:09. > :03:15.changed, it was fighting talk from Mr Cameron yesterday, all the other
:03:16. > :03:20.comments were about a friendly cabinet meeting, convivial, honest,
:03:21. > :03:23.now the gloves are off. It was described by Theresa Villiers, one
:03:24. > :03:26.of the ministers for Out, as emotional. I think today is the
:03:27. > :03:30.first time we will see those emotions spilling into the public
:03:31. > :03:34.domain. As you say the Prime Minister has moved into campaigning
:03:35. > :03:38.language, that fighting talk, because the stakes are so high for
:03:39. > :03:43.him. He knows fine well that he's taking a huge gamble with own
:03:44. > :03:47.leadership. Is taking a huge gamble with the country's membership of the
:03:48. > :03:51.European Union, and she always said he might in the end argued to leave,
:03:52. > :03:56.very few people who believe that come also taking a gamble with his
:03:57. > :04:00.own party unity and that fighting talk we heard from him on that is
:04:01. > :04:04.still in part a last-minute plea to those waverers to get on his side
:04:05. > :04:09.rather than going to the other. This is something we will see play out,
:04:10. > :04:13.perhaps Tom at Italy, this kind of blue on blue action. Cameron isn't
:04:14. > :04:17.going to stand up and debate directly with those opposing him. He
:04:18. > :04:23.will do it through another way. Another thing he said to Andrew Marr
:04:24. > :04:27.today was quite strong, and a bit sharp, he suggested that those come
:04:28. > :04:32.including perhaps Boris Johnson, want to campaign for Out, were
:04:33. > :04:36.linking arms with George Galloway and Nigel Farage. For most people in
:04:37. > :04:41.the Conservative Party, hardly a compliment. What about the waverers,
:04:42. > :04:47.Boris Johnson for example, he wasn't able to be swayed with Michael Gove,
:04:48. > :04:53.George Osborne, a close friend, and that will have been a big blow, how
:04:54. > :04:58.big a blow will it be Boris Johnson campaigns for Out? One thing about
:04:59. > :05:02.this, some people wonder why the media seem obsessed with one
:05:03. > :05:07.politician. The reason is this. It is not often that politicians have
:05:08. > :05:11.single name recognition. It's not often as, if we do from time to time
:05:12. > :05:15.you go out campaigning in action with politicians, if it is Boris
:05:16. > :05:19.Johnson people come out of their houses and their businesses and
:05:20. > :05:24.shops, to see him and talk to him. They want to have pictures taken
:05:25. > :05:28.with him. He's a rare politician, the kind who can actually add a real
:05:29. > :05:34.fizz to a campaign and cut through to the public. Some people love him,
:05:35. > :05:38.some despise. But the point is, his addition to the Out campaign, if
:05:39. > :05:41.that's the way he goes which is what we expect, it would change the
:05:42. > :05:47.dynamics of the campaign. Particularly for the Out side, who
:05:48. > :05:50.have not landed on one obvious leader, it would be a significant
:05:51. > :05:55.boost for them, real shot in the arm. We are finally going to cure
:05:56. > :06:00.from Boris Johnson at 10pm this evening. He will lay out his
:06:01. > :06:05.arguments in his regular Telegraph column. The surprise would be if he
:06:06. > :06:10.decided to stay in. But of course you never know with him, he is
:06:11. > :06:16.unpredictable, and instinctively many who know him well say that at
:06:17. > :06:20.heart he is a YouGov file, not naturally a sceptic. Theatrical to
:06:21. > :06:25.the end! Briefly, how will it play out between Cabinet ministers on
:06:26. > :06:29.either side? Will they really be able to hold it together over the
:06:30. > :06:36.weeks of campaigning? One extraordinary thing about this is
:06:37. > :06:39.that they have an officially divided Cabinet, and the normal way of
:06:40. > :06:44.politics working is that they have to stick together come hell or high
:06:45. > :06:48.water. I think most people will do their best to be polite but
:06:49. > :06:53.friendships and loyalties will be tested. Clearly what it means is
:06:54. > :06:58.that there won't be much going on here apart from this. The focus will
:06:59. > :07:02.be Europe. The Challenger David Cameron, whatever the result, is
:07:03. > :07:05.whether he can keep the party together after the vote. Thank you.
:07:06. > :07:08.So after a near sleepless night on Friday, European leaders
:07:09. > :07:10.were meant to agree a deal over a civilised English breakfast.
:07:11. > :07:20.They didn't bother with afternoon tea.
:07:21. > :07:22.In the end they came up trumps over dinner.
:07:23. > :07:28.History starts with a lot of waiting around, as I discovered on Friday.
:07:29. > :07:34.Waiting for news from the EU summit, Westminster had ground to a halt.
:07:35. > :07:42.Over there, European leaders were on their second
:07:43. > :07:52.The French president was worried about the city of London getting
:07:53. > :07:54.a special deal, the Polish Prime Minister feared her citizens living
:07:55. > :07:57.in the UK would lose their benefits, and the Greek PM was
:07:58. > :08:05.David Cameron said he was battling for a better deal for Britain,
:08:06. > :08:07.which involved lots of talk, quite a few croissants,
:08:08. > :08:18.Suddenly, back at Westminster, a thing happened.
:08:19. > :08:21.One of the Leave campaigns, Grassroots Out, held a rally
:08:22. > :08:23.where it was rumoured they would reveal a surprise supporter.
:08:24. > :08:26.Who would be your dream Eurosceptic special guest?
:08:27. > :08:36.Sorry, it was actually George Galloway.
:08:37. > :08:43.When he turned up, a bunch of people left.
:08:44. > :09:01.They were people who were waiting for Nigel and had
:09:02. > :09:11.The only thing more exciting was happening back in Brussels,
:09:12. > :09:13.where finally, a deal designed to keep Britain in the EU
:09:14. > :09:19.The hacks were briefed by a clearly knackered Prime Minister.
:09:20. > :09:27.Within the last hour, I have negotiated a deal to give
:09:28. > :09:30.the United Kingdom special status inside the European Union.
:09:31. > :09:33.In the midst of it all, Angela Merkel was snapped
:09:34. > :09:43.That is what I call a working dinner.
:09:44. > :09:52.Now, it's Saturday morning in Downing Street.
:09:53. > :09:54.More waiting, this time for the first Cabinet meeting
:09:55. > :09:56.on a weekend since the Falklands, and David Cameron's chance
:09:57. > :09:58.to brief his colleagues on that deal.
:09:59. > :10:01.This is the deal and here is what it amounts to.
:10:02. > :10:07.In a future EU treaty, the EU will exempt the UK
:10:08. > :10:10.from the idea of ever-closer union, there will be safeguards
:10:11. > :10:12.for the City of London, when it comes to in-work benefits,
:10:13. > :10:16.the UK will be able to apply the emergency brake,
:10:17. > :10:21.which means EU migrants will not get the same level
:10:22. > :10:24.as the rest of us until they have been here for a few years,
:10:25. > :10:27.and from 2020, they will only get child benefit paid at the rate
:10:28. > :10:29.they would get in their home country.
:10:30. > :10:31.Time for ministers to give their verdict.
:10:32. > :10:32.Home Secretary, are you a remain-ian?
:10:33. > :10:41.Chancellor, I am guessing you are an inner, aren't you?
:10:42. > :10:49.Each gave their answer during a two hour meeting in Number 10.
:10:50. > :10:51.Then the PM appeared to press the button marked "Referendum".
:10:52. > :10:56.The choice is in your hands, but my recommendation is clear.
:10:57. > :10:59.I believe that Britain will be safer, stronger and better off
:11:00. > :11:05.And apparently it is now totally fine for members of the Cabinet
:11:06. > :11:13.What was it like when Michael Gove spoke, was he a bit sad?
:11:14. > :11:16.Of course, because he and the Prime Minister, he and the rest of us,
:11:17. > :11:26.One of the interesting and remarkable things about this
:11:27. > :11:28.government is we all know each other and we like each other,
:11:29. > :11:33.We have each other's mobile phones and we text and talk to each other.
:11:34. > :11:34.Please join me in welcoming Vote Leave's...
:11:35. > :11:38.But the six ministerial Tory outers headed straight to the HQ
:11:39. > :11:43.It is Iain Duncan Smith, I am a member of the Cabinet.
:11:44. > :11:53.I will be voting to leave the EU because I am profoundly
:11:54. > :11:56.optimistic about the UK, I believe we can flourish
:11:57. > :11:59.outside the European Union, so I think the better option
:12:00. > :12:03.is to take back control, and restore the ability
:12:04. > :12:05.to make our own laws and control our own
:12:06. > :12:09.Happy, happy, here we go, big smiles.
:12:10. > :12:13.Now the referendum campaign will be brought to a street near you,
:12:14. > :12:16.like the Britain Stronger In Europe team did in rainy Bath this weekend.
:12:17. > :12:19.There is one more thing we are waiting for, which side
:12:20. > :12:29.The Mayor of London will reveal his intentions tonight.
:12:30. > :12:36.Exciting. Let's pick up on that. Tom Newton Dunn, will he campaign to
:12:37. > :12:40.come out? It looks very much like it. People close to him this morning
:12:41. > :12:45.that I've spoken to, some pro-European MPs who hoped he would
:12:46. > :12:49.go their way, have now resigned themselves to Boris going from Vote
:12:50. > :12:52.Leave. Apparently it was down to this big dinner he had with Michael
:12:53. > :12:57.Gove on Tuesday night as revealed by the Mail on Sunday today. Horace was
:12:58. > :13:01.really given an argument he found hard to refuse. It would certainly
:13:02. > :13:05.appear that they have done a deal to do this together. Is it not more
:13:06. > :13:12.about leadership ambitions than about his true feelings to do with
:13:13. > :13:17.the EU? Everyone will presume that now is not simply because Boris
:13:18. > :13:21.Johnson is known for being inside Europe, he is an internationalist,
:13:22. > :13:25.born in New York, he's lived in Brussels, he has always been in
:13:26. > :13:29.favour of reform but not leaving. He was telling people openly one month
:13:30. > :13:33.ago that he would campaign to stay in. He has clearly worked out that
:13:34. > :13:37.the electorate that matters for him other grassroots Tories and the MPs
:13:38. > :13:41.who ask up to Cork and who will therefore hopefully propel him
:13:42. > :13:47.towards being Prime Minister. The thought he will have is, does he
:13:48. > :13:53.look sincere in doing this? He will have to have a very good argument
:13:54. > :13:58.tonight to make it look why he has done this apparent turnaround. Let's
:13:59. > :14:02.look at some of the substance, Melanie Phillips. Some will say that
:14:03. > :14:06.not many people in the public will look at the details, they will do it
:14:07. > :14:12.on gut instinct and emotion. Do you think that is true, or are there
:14:13. > :14:16.salient issues that could capture the imagination? I think the two are
:14:17. > :14:19.not necessarily in contradiction of each other, gut instinct and
:14:20. > :14:24.emotional part of it and fear will have a lot to do with this campaign.
:14:25. > :14:28.The fear, we must cling on for fear of something worse which is what the
:14:29. > :14:31.Prime Minister has played on and will continue to do so
:14:32. > :14:36.significantly. I was struck by the interview with the Prime Minister
:14:37. > :14:41.this morning in which he addressed the most important issue,
:14:42. > :14:46.sovereignty. And he redefined it. He was so keen to slip away from it
:14:47. > :14:50.because it is so dangerous him. The odd comment is that Britain will
:14:51. > :14:53.still have no control over its own stash might be argued is that
:14:54. > :14:58.Britain will still have no control over its own laws, they will be
:14:59. > :15:03.dictated in significant measure. Users they are looking at a
:15:04. > :15:08.mechanism... He is clinging to his apparent concession that he has run
:15:09. > :15:11.from them not to sign up to ever closer union. That is a meaningless
:15:12. > :15:15.thing. The thing is that we in Britain will continue to be bad but
:15:16. > :15:19.the judgments of the European Court of Justice. Although the Prime
:15:20. > :15:22.Minister is floated some kind of constitutional settlement, this is a
:15:23. > :15:25.nonsense because nothing can override that superiority. While we
:15:26. > :15:36.continue to be signed at the EU. Opponents are vexed that we appear
:15:37. > :15:39.not to have the ability to make her own laws, but we do not seem to be
:15:40. > :15:44.vexed whether we have the ability to decide whether to go to war not. You
:15:45. > :15:50.could have a situation in the next few months where Turkey and Syria,
:15:51. > :15:59.sorry, Russia and Turkey could find themselves at war. What happens
:16:00. > :16:02.then? We are bound to go to war on Turkey's behalf, the cause Turkey is
:16:03. > :16:05.a member of Nato. Opponents of the European Union do not seem to be too
:16:06. > :16:08.vexed about that. Do you think security will be the overriding
:16:09. > :16:12.thing that will convince people? It is simple who is clicked to win this
:16:13. > :16:18.campaign. The winners will be the safest option and the losers will be
:16:19. > :16:22.the riskiest option. That is why the Prime Minister is talking about risk
:16:23. > :16:27.and uncertainty. He's saying what can you, the outers, what is your
:16:28. > :16:31.vision for what Britain would be like outside the European Union. We
:16:32. > :16:33.will hear more from you later in the programme.
:16:34. > :16:36.Well, as we've been hearing, as soon as David Cameron announced
:16:37. > :16:38.the date of the referendum, members of the Cabinet were given
:16:39. > :16:41.free rein to campaign on either side of the argument.
:16:42. > :16:43.So who'll be campaigning to stay in and who'll be
:16:44. > :16:48.It is time for ministers to pick a side.
:16:49. > :16:50.No surprises that David Cameron, George Osborne and Philip Hammond
:16:51. > :16:59.And they will be pleased that potential outers Theresa May,
:17:00. > :17:03.Liz Truss and Sajid Javid have also all opted for the remain team.
:17:04. > :17:08.Chris Grayling, Priti Patel, John Whittingdale, Theresa Villiers
:17:09. > :17:11.and Iain Duncan Smith will be campaigning to leave.
:17:12. > :17:16.They will be cheered that Michael Gove, after much
:17:17. > :17:19.soul-searching, has also plumped for the leave campaign.
:17:20. > :17:26.However, there is one big name waiting on the sidelines.
:17:27. > :17:30.Pollsters claim his support could sway a lot of voters.
:17:31. > :17:32.Surely it cannot be long to wait now.
:17:33. > :17:34.And the Leader of the House of Commons, Chris Grayling,
:17:35. > :17:42.Welcome. Hello. Why do you not think the deal that the Prime Minister
:17:43. > :17:46.secured was enough? The Prime Minister has made some progress in
:17:47. > :17:51.his discussions in Brussels, and we give him credit for that, but does
:17:52. > :17:56.this represent a transformation that says to me, we should stay within
:17:57. > :18:00.the European Union? It does not. Our membership of the European Union
:18:01. > :18:04.holds us back. There are decisions that we should be taking for the
:18:05. > :18:10.benefit of her country that we cannot take when wearing the EU,
:18:11. > :18:14.like how many people, and live and work your, like forming free-trade
:18:15. > :18:17.deals around the world, and we are spending millions of pounds a week
:18:18. > :18:20.in subscriptions to the EU that should be spent on the National
:18:21. > :18:24.Health Service are bringing their beds. Some of that does not take
:18:25. > :18:30.into account the rebate that the UK gets. In your mind, the prime and it
:18:31. > :18:33.has failed in his ambition to secure fundamental reform? The Prime
:18:34. > :18:36.Minister has worked hard at this. He has failed, in your mind? What he
:18:37. > :18:54.has brought back is a deal that he and others believe it is
:18:55. > :18:57.sufficient for us to stay in the European Union. I do not think that,
:18:58. > :19:00.I think we should leave. That is the essence of the debate. What did they
:19:01. > :19:04.have secured to get your support? You're talking about risk. All the
:19:05. > :19:09.National statisticians are saying that our population is on the way to
:19:10. > :19:13.rising from 75 to 80 million people. I do not think we can cope with
:19:14. > :19:18.that. We do not have the houses, the school places, the hospitals. Your
:19:19. > :19:22.government has failed to do anything about net migration figures? Letting
:19:23. > :19:29.that happen is a huge risk. We cannot do anything about it because
:19:30. > :19:32.of the free movement you -- rules in the European Union. If we did not
:19:33. > :19:35.have free movement, what level of movement would be acceptable? We
:19:36. > :19:41.should bring it down to the tens of thousands. If the UK pulled out of
:19:42. > :19:46.the EU, you would get the level down to the tens of thousands? We would
:19:47. > :19:49.have the ability to set limits. We would look at the reality of the
:19:50. > :19:52.migration pressures we face. We could take decisions in the
:19:53. > :19:58.interests of Britain. At the moment we cannot do that. So there is not
:19:59. > :20:02.anything that David Cameron could have secured to get your support,
:20:03. > :20:04.because you always wanted to come out of the EU? I believed for a long
:20:05. > :20:23.time it was likely I would decide to come out of the EU. I have
:20:24. > :20:25.sat through European meetings for five years. We are not able to look
:20:26. > :20:27.after our national interest properly, our citizens are business
:20:28. > :20:29.interests. Too many decisions have been passed to Brussels. Michael
:20:30. > :20:31.Gove spoke yesterday about the decisions that cross the desks of
:20:32. > :20:35.ministers. Give me one example of something that has come across your
:20:36. > :20:39.desk that you could not in act because of the EU? When I was
:20:40. > :20:42.Minister for health and safety, there were changes being brought in
:20:43. > :20:48.that would cost British business money. Which ones to G1 to bring --
:20:49. > :20:53.want to not bring in. You always talk about regulations. Which
:20:54. > :20:59.specific bills were you not able to pass, which laws were foisted on you
:21:00. > :21:03.by the EU? I would not have imposed massive change to the North Sea oil
:21:04. > :21:07.industry, which is the best safety record in the world. It took three
:21:08. > :21:10.years of intense negotiations to reduce a package which would have
:21:11. > :21:15.been damaging to one that simply cost extra money for the industry.
:21:16. > :21:19.You want to strip away health and safety regulations? We have the best
:21:20. > :21:29.resume in the world. Across the board you would like to get rid of
:21:30. > :21:32.health and safety regulations that are brought in as a result of not
:21:33. > :21:35.just our government but the EU? I want us as a nation to decide what
:21:36. > :21:38.health and safety rules we get in the UK, not have been imposed. I
:21:39. > :21:41.want the right regulation. I want proper safety in the workplace but
:21:42. > :21:45.not massive burdens put on business. What was the atmosphere like in
:21:46. > :21:50.Cabinet yesterday. It was cordial. It was constructive and friendly.
:21:51. > :21:54.The Prime Minister accepted we had different views around the table. We
:21:55. > :21:58.are all committed to working in the next few months for the cause we
:21:59. > :22:06.believe in. We will do it in a constructive and friendly way. You
:22:07. > :22:10.will not be able to do that. We do not have to attack each other
:22:11. > :22:14.personally insult each other. It is already happening. You have said the
:22:15. > :22:18.Prime Minister is your mongering, it will be project fear. That is not
:22:19. > :22:24.friendly? I have not said the prime and is to is scaremongering. You
:22:25. > :22:30.have implied it will be -- it was Ron Prentice ate was too risky to
:22:31. > :22:35.leave. That is nonsense, the airlines thing, we have cheap
:22:36. > :22:39.airfares all around the world. There are airports in continental Europe
:22:40. > :22:44.that would go bust if it was not for low-cost aviation from United
:22:45. > :22:48.Kingdom. You can guarantee that to the British people, can you? All
:22:49. > :22:53.these things will be there the day after Britain votes to leave the EU?
:22:54. > :22:58.Why would people in continental Europe cost themselves money? You
:22:59. > :23:02.cannot guarantee it? Aske yourself the question. Do you think the day
:23:03. > :23:08.after Britain leaves the European Union, the Germans will say, we will
:23:09. > :23:12.no longer sell BMWs to the British? It will not happen. There will be a
:23:13. > :23:18.trade deal. Countries will want to trade with the UK. The issue is,
:23:19. > :23:23.will it be the same deal, will there be full access for the UK to the
:23:24. > :23:28.same markets? For goods and services? Are you saying this will
:23:29. > :23:32.be a utopia where the same deal will be struck, we will not have to be
:23:33. > :23:39.part of freedom of movement rules, and we will not have to pay a penny
:23:40. > :23:41.towards the EU? We are the most important customer of the European
:23:42. > :23:47.Union. Can you guarantee that we will have full access to trade and
:23:48. > :23:50.services in the way that exist now, without freedom of movement and
:23:51. > :23:54.without paying into a EU fund? Aske the question the other way around,
:23:55. > :23:59.why would they take a risk with jobs in Germany, France and other
:24:00. > :24:08.European countries, by not agreeing a proper modern free-trade agreement
:24:09. > :24:10.in goods and services? They run a massive trade surplus with us. They
:24:11. > :24:13.sell more to us than we sell to them. They lose out financially of
:24:14. > :24:17.those arrangements do not continue. I am not seeing the arrangements
:24:18. > :24:21.would not continue, they would continue. I am talking about the
:24:22. > :24:26.Thames. Everyone says we do not know what out would look like. I am
:24:27. > :24:32.trying to see how long it would take, would it look like Canada, and
:24:33. > :24:35.would it be on the same terms we have no? Why would it not be on a
:24:36. > :24:41.free-trade basis? It costs them money if it is not. It is not ours
:24:42. > :24:45.who loses money, it is Germany and France and other European countries.
:24:46. > :24:49.That is why there would be a free-trade agreement that would
:24:50. > :24:53.allow all businesses to trade. How long would that take? A relatively
:24:54. > :24:58.short period of time in my view, because they lose financially. If it
:24:59. > :25:02.took Canada seven years, how long would it take the UK? There is a
:25:03. > :25:07.process of negotiation set out in the treaty that is estimated to take
:25:08. > :25:14.two years. I would not expect those countries to take a risk. They would
:25:15. > :25:18.lose out financially, not us. Even over the negotiations, President
:25:19. > :25:21.Hollington said that he will not give special treatment to Great
:25:22. > :25:24.Britain. Why would these countries who have been pulled through the
:25:25. > :25:28.ringer over these negotiations suddenly want to immediately, on
:25:29. > :25:33.your timescale, set up favourable terms of trade with the UK? Does
:25:34. > :25:36.anybody seriously think that President Hollande will say to the
:25:37. > :25:40.French farmers, who we know are fairly lively bunch when they want
:25:41. > :25:45.to be, you will no longer have free-trade agreements to sell your
:25:46. > :25:48.wine, cheese and other agricultural products to British supermarkets?
:25:49. > :25:52.Why would you take that political risk? We do not know the terms, that
:25:53. > :25:57.you admit. We know what you would like. We know you're saying you
:25:58. > :26:01.cannot believe there would be another option, but it is a risk.
:26:02. > :26:07.The Prime Minister is right? It is a risk for the French not to have an
:26:08. > :26:10.agreement with us. Otherwise their businesses lose out. Sajid Javid
:26:11. > :26:15.does not agree with you and use the Business Secretary. Is he wrong when
:26:16. > :26:21.he says, my head says it is too risky for business? I think the risk
:26:22. > :26:29.is on the other side. Inside you jab the drum? I have a different view.
:26:30. > :26:33.-- is Sajid Javid. Continental Europe are the ones who would lose
:26:34. > :26:37.if we do not have a free-trade agreement with them. He is the
:26:38. > :26:41.Business Secretary. What do you know that he does not? We have different
:26:42. > :26:48.views around the Cabinet table. We set them out yesterday. Some of us
:26:49. > :26:52.are in Yahn Sommer out. We will have that debate over the next few
:26:53. > :26:57.months. The Business Secretary is very good at his job. He is also
:26:58. > :27:02.clear in his article that he is deeply unhappy about the European
:27:03. > :27:05.Union. But he is being loyal to the Prime Minister. We are taking
:27:06. > :27:10.different views. We are both loyal to the Prime Minister. Not on this
:27:11. > :27:14.issue. The Prime Minister has been clear that government ministers are
:27:15. > :27:22.free to take different sides. It is a bold decision, the right decision.
:27:23. > :27:25.If you lose the argument, are you worried about your job? I think that
:27:26. > :27:29.is relevant. While? It will only happen on June 23rd? Wanted easily
:27:30. > :27:33.see a situation where David Cameron feels strongly about this. He will
:27:34. > :27:38.say to you and your colleagues or canning for out, that is it, it is
:27:39. > :27:44.over? David Cameron will do what he believes is right. This is a matter
:27:45. > :27:51.of principle for me. It is not about my career, my job. I am doing what I
:27:52. > :27:54.believe is the right thing for the country. What happens to me is
:27:55. > :27:56.neither here nor there. I believe it is the right thing for the country
:27:57. > :28:01.and I also believe it is the low-risk option. Is it right for a
:28:02. > :28:05.Conservative majority government, for the first time in many years,
:28:06. > :28:10.fighting and divided over this issue? People expect mature
:28:11. > :28:15.democracy, the expect is as politicians to debate and discuss.
:28:16. > :28:20.They do not expect us to agree all the time, we are not robots. We will
:28:21. > :28:24.have a constructive debate but we will stay friends, we will stay
:28:25. > :28:30.respectful of the Prime Minister, and work to make sure that we carry
:28:31. > :28:35.on gather -- governing the country well. If you win, does the Prime
:28:36. > :28:40.Minister have to go? Absolutely not. So you trust him to renegotiate
:28:41. > :28:44.bilateral trade agreements with the EU as the Prime Minister the
:28:45. > :28:47.campaign to stay in the EU? I trust him as the Prime Minister that was
:28:48. > :28:54.bold enough to give the country the choice. If the country decides to
:28:55. > :28:58.stay, he will lead us in government in 2020. He would really be your
:28:59. > :29:03.favourite person to lead these negotiations? You would still trust
:29:04. > :29:05.and? I would still trust them. In terms of your colleagues, do you
:29:06. > :29:11.think it would be possible for him to stay either way? Absolutely. The
:29:12. > :29:16.last thing we need at the end of all this, regardless of the result, is a
:29:17. > :29:21.political bloodbath. We have a good team and the team needs to carry on.
:29:22. > :29:26.How big boost would Boris Johnson be to your campaign? It would be great
:29:27. > :29:32.if he joined our campaign. I know no more than anybody else, but I hope
:29:33. > :29:36.you will join. If you lose, will this issue be settled? The people
:29:37. > :29:40.will have decided, so we will not be able to return. We will not be
:29:41. > :29:44.urging for another referendum. Is that it for a generation? The people
:29:45. > :29:49.of this country will have decided that if we vote to stay, we stay, if
:29:50. > :29:53.we are to leave, we leave. Chris Grayling, thank you.
:29:54. > :29:56.Its leader, Jeremy Corbyn, has been sceptical
:29:57. > :30:01.He voted to leave the European Economic Community in 1975.
:30:02. > :30:04.The party will campaign to stay in the EU.
:30:05. > :30:06.The Labour leader says it brings investment, jobs and protection
:30:07. > :30:10.In a moment we'll be talking to the Shadow Foreign Secretary,
:30:11. > :30:17.Hillary Benn, but first let's hear what Jeremy Corbyn had to say,
:30:18. > :30:21.We will be campaigning to keep Britain in Europe in the coming
:30:22. > :30:23.referendum, regardless of David Cameron's tinkering,
:30:24. > :30:25.because it brings investment, jobs and protection for British
:30:26. > :30:33.Labour believes the European Union is a vital framework for European
:30:34. > :30:35.trade and co-operation in the 21st century,
:30:36. > :30:37.and that a vote to remain is in the best interests
:30:38. > :30:44.of our people, but we want a progressive change in Europe,
:30:45. > :30:46.to make the EU work for working people.
:30:47. > :30:50.workers' rights, putting jobs and sustainable growth at the heart
:30:51. > :30:51.of EU economic policy, democratisation and greater
:30:52. > :30:55.accountability of institutions, and a halt, an absolute halt,
:30:56. > :30:58.to the pressure to privatise public services by some elements
:30:59. > :31:13.The Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn, joins me. Welcome. Did David
:31:14. > :31:17.Cameron secure a good deal? He went through this whole process because
:31:18. > :31:22.of the splits in the Conservative Party. It has not changed our view,
:31:23. > :31:26.Labour are in favour of remaining in the European Union, will be 40
:31:27. > :31:30.announced a referendum and negotiation and we still are in
:31:31. > :31:34.favour. So it hasn't made any difference. Some changes, like the
:31:35. > :31:36.red card, we complain about at the general election, I think that's
:31:37. > :31:50.good for Britain. A red card on laws that the UK
:31:51. > :31:52.doesn't like. If you have is a efficient number of national
:31:53. > :31:55.parliaments in the EU states saying we don't fancy this, as a good
:31:56. > :31:57.thing. Changes in child benefit, we believe in fair contribution but
:31:58. > :32:00.this referendum won't be about to David Cameron's deal, in the end. It
:32:01. > :32:03.will be about whether we are better off in or out. I thought it was
:32:04. > :32:08.striking listening to Chris Grayling that he wasn't able to answer your
:32:09. > :32:11.perfectly fair questions about what trade relationships will replace the
:32:12. > :32:15.free access we have got to the largest single market in the world
:32:16. > :32:19.because we are members of the European Union. Let's go back to the
:32:20. > :32:22.deal. You say it will make no difference yet to concede that
:32:23. > :32:26.introducing a red card, a challenge to EU laws that the UK doesn't like,
:32:27. > :32:30.and restrictions on child benefit, even if they were not quite what the
:32:31. > :32:37.prime and stir promised, they good things, you support that. -- the
:32:38. > :32:40.Prime Minister promised. They are changes we ourselves called for. Yet
:32:41. > :32:46.this decision is about much much more than that. It has not changed
:32:47. > :32:50.Labour's view of the case of Britain remaining in the EU because it's
:32:51. > :32:55.good for jobs and investment. Let's take a practical example. Everyday
:32:56. > :32:59.we export just under 2000 cars to Europe with no tariff. When Japan
:33:00. > :33:04.and America export cars they pay a 10% tariff. That's what access to
:33:05. > :33:07.the single market means and where investment has come to Britain in
:33:08. > :33:10.the last decade, investing in the car industry which is now growing
:33:11. > :33:17.and expanding that, people thought it was on its way out, it isn't. No
:33:18. > :33:18.need to presume that would disappear, as Chris Grayling
:33:19. > :33:22.need to presume that would disappear, as Chris Grayling said...
:33:23. > :33:25.None of those campaigning for Leave can guarantee the terms of access to
:33:26. > :33:29.that single market, what those terms would be. A lot of well-paid
:33:30. > :33:35.Manufacturing high skilled jobs depend on that. Those jobs might not
:33:36. > :33:39.go, it is Project Fear, saying that. Nick Clegg said repeatedly that 2
:33:40. > :33:44.million jobs would disappear and that isn't based in fact. I'm not
:33:45. > :33:49.saying that 3 million would disappear. What's the alternative? A
:33:50. > :33:53.good example is Norway. In order to get access to the single market
:33:54. > :33:57.Norway has to pay a contribution which is the same per capita as I
:33:58. > :34:02.was. They have to accept almost all the rules and free movement of
:34:03. > :34:07.workers. It's because the Norwegian establishment wanted that. They
:34:08. > :34:12.don't have any say over the rules in Europe. How is that an improvement
:34:13. > :34:15.on what we've got now? It isn't. It is a worse deal. Even at the
:34:16. > :34:20.Norwegians don't recommend we do that. That is why the Leave
:34:21. > :34:24.campaigners as we have just seen with Chris Grayling 's inability to
:34:25. > :34:31.answer your question, is that they cannot tell us what Out would look
:34:32. > :34:35.like, so why take the risk? Are you saying Britain can't survive outside
:34:36. > :34:39.the EU? You are implying this country could not do well on its
:34:40. > :34:46.own, could not survive. You are scaremongering in a sense. Jo, I am
:34:47. > :34:50.not saying that. The implication is that Britain could not secure a
:34:51. > :34:55.similar deal, that this country is not capable of being able to run its
:34:56. > :34:59.affairs effectively. I'm making a different argument, this one. We've
:35:00. > :35:03.already got a lot of good trade deals with other countries precisely
:35:04. > :35:07.because we are part of the European Union, which gives us tariff free
:35:08. > :35:11.access. We are part of the largest single market in the world. Why
:35:12. > :35:15.would we trade what we have the moment, which is good deals, for the
:35:16. > :35:20.promise of deals that are just as good when those campaigning for
:35:21. > :35:26.cannot actually answer the questions. What about control of
:35:27. > :35:30.your own borders, are you happy with current levels of migration? Free
:35:31. > :35:34.movement in the European Union is part of the rules. So you want
:35:35. > :35:38.limitless migration in that sense because that is what it will be over
:35:39. > :35:42.the next five or ten years, bearing in mind what is happening in the
:35:43. > :35:46.world at the moment? It will be impossible to lower those levels.
:35:47. > :35:51.What is happening in the world is a separate argument. If you're talking
:35:52. > :35:55.about outside of the European Union... Once those people get
:35:56. > :35:59.citizenship of Europe they will be able to come to Britain. Rightly or
:36:00. > :36:04.wrongly, it is something people are concerned about. Being part of the
:36:05. > :36:08.EU means this country cannot control its own borders, can't control
:36:09. > :36:11.levels of migration. If you look at the number of people Germany has
:36:12. > :36:15.taken in because of the crisis in Syria it will be a number of years
:36:16. > :36:19.before they can get German citizenship. Then I don't think they
:36:20. > :36:24.will choose in large numbers to move from Germany to the UK. Look at
:36:25. > :36:27.living standards and economic opportunities in Germany. The other
:36:28. > :36:31.part of the German equation is that many British people are living and
:36:32. > :36:36.working in other European countries, and EU migrants who have come to
:36:37. > :36:41.Britain are working as nurses, lecturers, in manufacturing. They
:36:42. > :36:45.are paying into the British economy, they are net contributors, as you
:36:46. > :36:51.know, because they work and they pay taxes, and that gives us more
:36:52. > :36:55.revenue, as a country. To do agree with Jeremy Corbyn attacking the
:36:56. > :37:01.deal particularly because of the brake on benefits to EU migrants?
:37:02. > :37:05.Our view is that we agree in fair contribution. Jeremy Corbyn said the
:37:06. > :37:10.deal was tinkering around the edges especially when the focus was on a
:37:11. > :37:15.break in benefits for EU migrants. He doesn't like it. We agree that
:37:16. > :37:21.their contribution is the right approach... Are you sure Mr Corbyn
:37:22. > :37:25.signed up to that? We are sure that their contribution is the right
:37:26. > :37:29.approach. He was making a different argument. His argument was that it
:37:30. > :37:33.is irrelevant to the view that Labour has taken about the benefits
:37:34. > :37:45.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.
:37:46. > :37:48.We've one topic this week - Europe - and in today's programme we'll hear
:37:49. > :37:51.the arguments for and against Northern Ireland remaining in the EU
:37:52. > :37:56.as part of June's UK-wide referendum.
:37:57. > :37:58.We'll hear from politicians and business leaders on opposing
:37:59. > :38:02.And my first guests this morning are the deputy leader
:38:03. > :38:07.of the DUP, Nigel Dodds, and Sinn Fein's Mairtin O Muilleoir.
:38:08. > :38:09.Nigel Dodds, you've made no secret of your Euro-sceptic
:38:10. > :38:18.Is June's referendum your great opportunity?
:38:19. > :38:24.First of all we welcome the fact there is a referendum in June. We
:38:25. > :38:31.have been pressing for this for a long time, even when David Cameron
:38:32. > :38:34.was opposed to it. I give him credit for the fact he is calling the
:38:35. > :38:36.referendum. It is too long since people have had their say. An
:38:37. > :38:41.opportunity arises for everyone to have a debate and discussion about
:38:42. > :38:44.what is the best decision for the United Kingdom, this is a national
:38:45. > :38:49.referendum, so do we want this political superstructure or do we
:38:50. > :38:54.want a trading relationship? That is what it comes down to. The deal the
:38:55. > :38:58.Prime Minister has done is recognised by many people as
:38:59. > :39:03.tinkering with the issues that does not get to the root of some of the
:39:04. > :39:05.problems about sovereignty, the control of borders, control of law
:39:06. > :39:09.making decisions, control of finances. And I think people are
:39:10. > :39:14.concerned about some of those issues and want to have their say. Your
:39:15. > :39:38.leader has said, CAPNEXT... You're not electing the
:39:39. > :39:45.DUP, the SDLP, Sinn Fein. Your vote is equal to the Prime Minister's
:39:46. > :39:50.adult. It is a referendum on one specific issue. We are making a
:39:51. > :39:54.recommendation as a party, but we recognise people will make up their
:39:55. > :39:57.own mind across all parties. I suspect within every political
:39:58. > :40:01.party, no matter how strong the leadership, that within those
:40:02. > :40:05.parties and outside those parties, people will have a range of opinions
:40:06. > :40:11.and there will be people who vote on the 23rd of June who may not even
:40:12. > :40:15.vote normally in elections, that's what tends to happen in referendums.
:40:16. > :40:19.I think the opportunity for a positive debate is they are. We will
:40:20. > :40:27.recommend strongly under half of our party that the circumstances that
:40:28. > :40:31.the United Kingdom -- on behalf of other party that the United Kingdom
:40:32. > :40:46.is stronger as part How come you are an advocate of the
:40:47. > :40:57.UK remaining? My first election was the first EU election, Sinn Fein
:40:58. > :41:12.were... This island has benefited hugely full. The people of Ireland
:41:13. > :41:18.want consulted. If we look at what is in the interest of our citizens
:41:19. > :41:22.here, in the six counties in the north, I think you have to admit
:41:23. > :41:34.that for the pocket, we benefit hugely from the EU, and for peace.
:41:35. > :41:40.It has been of enormous benefit, we have benefited on all fronts. I know
:41:41. > :41:44.that the DUP will go in for a strong No vote, but I wonder if in their
:41:45. > :41:50.heart of hearts, they also do not accept that membership of the
:41:51. > :41:54.European Union has been good for our neighbours, and for both
:41:55. > :42:01.communities. On the issue of consultation, on the issue of the
:42:02. > :42:06.date of referendum, there was an issue in terms of Scotland, Wales
:42:07. > :42:10.and Northern Ireland, devolved regions, the First Minister is all
:42:11. > :42:15.made it clear they did not want the referendum as close to the local
:42:16. > :42:18.elections, and the same with the London Mayor collections. David
:42:19. > :42:25.Cameron ignored you? He has pressed ahead because he said it is in the
:42:26. > :42:28.national interest. I disagree with the date, but nevertheless. On the
:42:29. > :42:31.wider issues about the benefits and all the rest of it, there will be
:42:32. > :42:37.came after the assembly elections to go into it in more detail, but the
:42:38. > :42:44.idea that our safety and security depends on the EU is nonsense, it is
:42:45. > :42:46.about being part of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and
:42:47. > :42:50.those alliances we make. People talk about safety and security want to
:42:51. > :42:58.seem to want to take a vote of Nato, but stay in the EU. David Cameron
:42:59. > :43:02.does not. He says that if, stronger, better offer inside, you said it for
:43:03. > :43:07.outside. He is wrong, because we will be worse off. We're paying
:43:08. > :43:12.millions of pounds into the European Union. It has been recommended by
:43:13. > :43:18.many economists that families will be ?1000 better off. The money we
:43:19. > :43:25.get out of Europe for Northern Ireland, for every pound we pay in,
:43:26. > :43:30.we pay in ?1 how can you assure us that will be better off to stay in
:43:31. > :43:43.the UK, when others are pretty sure it could not get much worse? We will
:43:44. > :43:51.probably get our teeth into it, but look at the reality on the ground. I
:43:52. > :43:55.just left Belfast City Hall in late 2014, and they got ?4 million from
:43:56. > :44:10.Europe for the renewables ground. Nigel's constituency also got ?14
:44:11. > :44:14.million for a centre. None of these pivoting projects would happen
:44:15. > :44:20.without the EU, and it is true with other projects. Theresa Villiers was
:44:21. > :44:25.asked, if you're up backs out, will you repay the money? She did not
:44:26. > :44:32.answer. Every landmark in the city has been made possible because of
:44:33. > :44:38.the EU. For me at is about looking to the future. Just to pick up on
:44:39. > :44:42.that, outside the European Union, you have no idea what kind of
:44:43. > :44:45.obstacles and trade barriers would be put in place to make it much more
:44:46. > :44:51.difficult for the UK to trade with our existing EU partners. You cannot
:44:52. > :44:56.quantify that. If you look at the other models and relationships that
:44:57. > :45:02.exist with countries outside the EU, it would be expensive. I do not
:45:03. > :45:08.accept it. You don't want to accept it, but you cannot prove it. I do
:45:09. > :45:12.not accept it, and I think a lot of serious economic commentators do not
:45:13. > :45:16.accept it either. That is a lot of scaremongering. We're hearing about
:45:17. > :45:19.how terrible this would be, it was the same argument used by those who
:45:20. > :45:24.said we should go into the euro in terms of the Irish Republic. Look at
:45:25. > :45:34.the trade implications of all of that. None of that came to pass. In
:45:35. > :45:39.fact, it is better off outside. Northern Ireland and the Irish
:45:40. > :45:42.Republic traded in terms of the currency on an equal basis, but the
:45:43. > :45:47.point is that now we have a situation where people are using all
:45:48. > :45:52.sorts of skier arguments, but the reality is that trade imbalances we
:45:53. > :45:55.have currently, where they sell far more to the United Kingdom, of
:45:56. > :46:00.course they would be mad not to want to do a trade deal on good terms
:46:01. > :46:04.with the United Kingdom since they want to sell to us, but on the issue
:46:05. > :46:08.that was raised about all of these things that the EU does for Northern
:46:09. > :46:14.Ireland and would not happen otherwise, I find a slight irony,
:46:15. > :46:18.because we are part of the United Kingdom, and things would not happen
:46:19. > :46:22.in the Northern Ireland without the money coming from the London
:46:23. > :46:30.Treasury. He wants out of that union, but wants to stay in a union
:46:31. > :46:35.that cost us money. It is spurious. You're very concerned about what is
:46:36. > :46:41.good for London and the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland, I
:46:42. > :46:48.appreciate that, but I am more concerned about the Shankill Road,
:46:49. > :46:57.and for those areas we're in that beneficiary, but let me say this, in
:46:58. > :47:02.2018, the pivotal strategy is to lower corporation tax to the same
:47:03. > :47:07.level as the rest of the island, and that has worked down south and
:47:08. > :47:13.brought in investment. It worked because it reduces tax and it is the
:47:14. > :47:20.gateway to the EU. This proposal was sabotaged entirely because of the
:47:21. > :47:25.executive. You have mentioned Theresa Villiers, she has committed
:47:26. > :47:29.herself to the Vote Leave campaign. Are you content it is appropriate
:47:30. > :47:33.former to remain as Secretary of State in Northern Ireland having
:47:34. > :47:43.adopted that position? The Tory party did here do not cost me any
:47:44. > :47:48.concern. Theresa Villiers will undoubtedly be against EU
:47:49. > :47:55.membership. Those who are concerned about building trust and confidence,
:47:56. > :48:03.let us argue on the merits, in terms of what is good for local people.
:48:04. > :48:05.One of the things, something that the Northern Ireland Executive is
:48:06. > :48:09.delivering, we fought for that very strongly and delivered it, but the
:48:10. > :48:12.interesting thing is because we are part of the European Union, we have
:48:13. > :48:16.to lose money for the blog rant over that. If we were not part of the
:48:17. > :48:28.European Union will be be better off and have the corporation tax. I
:48:29. > :48:35.accept that. Yes, we would better. It is a critical time for the
:48:36. > :48:38.company on Badia, but no one will accept the corporation tax from
:48:39. > :48:48.North America if you see, by the way we are not part of... -- Bombardier.
:48:49. > :48:54.Many American companies have said they would refer if there was a
:48:55. > :49:01.looser connection to the EU. You have got to look at the facts. S see
:49:02. > :49:07.if we can get facts. I spoke to Alistair Hamilton, Chief
:49:08. > :49:13.Executive... He said there are three things we need to have clarity on if
:49:14. > :49:16.the UK leads the European Union. 60% of exports go to European markets,
:49:17. > :49:21.most of the Republic of Ireland. Companies want to know what those
:49:22. > :49:28.markets will be like if the UK is outside the EU. Foreign direct
:49:29. > :49:30.investment, we pitch that we offer access to European markets, so how
:49:31. > :49:34.will that look in future? The funding we get from Europe goes to
:49:35. > :49:38.companies like Bombardier, will we get the same distribution in future?
:49:39. > :49:43.We get a lot of money because of our past. Bullseye the three issues you
:49:44. > :49:46.need to address. Reality is a there will be more money because even if
:49:47. > :49:51.we continued with all of the subventions that come from Europe
:49:52. > :49:55.and had to compensate people for tariffs, we would still be ?4
:49:56. > :50:00.billion a year better off. There will be a lot of issues to be
:50:01. > :50:03.discussed. The idea that being in Europe is risk-free and being
:50:04. > :50:08.outside is full of risks, remember when we joined the Common market,
:50:09. > :50:16.liquidity is now compare to put it was then. -- look where it is now.
:50:17. > :50:25.Look what happened in the Eurozone, look at the crisis. It is difficult
:50:26. > :50:32.for other people to take a strong... Briefly. It is good for peace. There
:50:33. > :50:37.is an equilibria and here, Unionists have always been quite reticent, but
:50:38. > :50:40.for me it is important for peace to remain in the union. It is important
:50:41. > :50:45.that in terms of the elections on May the 5th for the assembly,
:50:46. > :50:51.whatever opinions about the referendum, that we have a strong
:50:52. > :50:53.devolved government. I suspect we will return to all of this is a
:50:54. > :50:57.great deal. Now for a look at the week in 60
:50:58. > :51:11.seconds, with Stephen Walker. The row over MLA's expensive shows
:51:12. > :51:16.-- expenses shows no sign of going away. That is contrary to the
:51:17. > :51:21.termination, and the commission if it thinks this is OK, is quite
:51:22. > :51:25.wrong. I am extremely disappointed that the publicity that has been
:51:26. > :51:33.generated. Apparently at the behest of the two senior members of the
:51:34. > :51:39.independent panel. The health minister urged people to put
:51:40. > :51:45.patients first. This is not one week, one one year problem. Jobs
:51:46. > :51:51.could go at Bombardier, but it is insisted that all is not lost. We
:51:52. > :52:00.are committed to manufacture and keeping jobs. And the EU referendum
:52:01. > :52:05.debate hotted up. It is not part of the world economy. The growth is
:52:06. > :52:09.elsewhere. Of course it is. It is not!
:52:10. > :52:12.And the Brexit conversation continues - the main business
:52:13. > :52:14.organisations here have been pushing the economic importance
:52:15. > :52:16.of Northern Ireland staying in a reformed EU.
:52:17. > :52:19.But not everyone sees a June vote to leave as a recipe
:52:20. > :52:23.I'm joined by David Gavaghan, the Chair of the CBI here,
:52:24. > :52:28.What's the clincher in David Cameron's deal that
:52:29. > :52:41.I think the position is really very clear from previously, but in terms
:52:42. > :52:47.of what has happened in the last few days, what we're looking at is a
:52:48. > :52:51.European Union recognising the special position of the United
:52:52. > :52:55.Kingdom in the European Union. There is a good deal for the United
:52:56. > :52:58.Kingdom in terms of generation of jobs and stability of the future of
:52:59. > :53:06.United Kingdom in the European Union. , CBI point of view, there is
:53:07. > :53:16.a strong feeling amongst our members here in Northern Ireland, by no
:53:17. > :53:20.means a significant majority, there are people who want to leave. We
:53:21. > :53:26.will work through that with all facts and details. How do you
:53:27. > :53:31.respond to that, while there may be individuals who do think that Brexit
:53:32. > :53:36.is a good idea, there are people who want to stay. The majority of the
:53:37. > :53:41.members of the CBI might want to stay, but it does not mean the
:53:42. > :53:46.majority of small business owners do. Northern Ireland has thousands
:53:47. > :53:51.of small businesses that derive zero benefit from the European Union. The
:53:52. > :54:00.CBI is an organisation partially funded by the European Union, and
:54:01. > :54:03.gets a huge amount. You survey your members, often paid for by the
:54:04. > :54:09.European Union. We can take a lot of what the CBI says with a pinch of
:54:10. > :54:18.salt. It represents business establishment, and organ nations
:54:19. > :54:23.that can often paid lobbyists. The CBI is a voice in the wider debate.
:54:24. > :54:26.You have another voice so what do you say to those individuals and
:54:27. > :54:33.organisations who are concerned it is a much riskier road to go down,
:54:34. > :54:38.to leave the European Union, with some any unquantifiable things to
:54:39. > :54:44.stay where we are? It is very imperfect. It is ?50 million a day
:54:45. > :54:49.to be a member of the European Union for the UK. The equivalent of a
:54:50. > :54:56.construction of a General Hospital of the week. That is the magnitude
:54:57. > :55:02.of the cost of this. And in your view is there no benefit? I see very
:55:03. > :55:06.little benefit. I see nothing but regulation, the British Government
:55:07. > :55:11.having no sovereignty. Look at Michael Gove's statement on the
:55:12. > :55:22.issue. This is the important point, we need to get away from this and
:55:23. > :55:25.the -- get to the details. There are 23,000 civil servants in the
:55:26. > :55:26.European Union. It is smaller in terms of the bureaucracy than
:55:27. > :55:43.Birmingham City Council. It is 25. The key point is that for
:55:44. > :55:50.people in Northern Ireland, it is about the future of jobs. Good jobs
:55:51. > :55:55.in a stable environment. There is a key issue for the business community
:55:56. > :55:58.in relation to the massive win we have had regarding the corporation
:55:59. > :56:02.tax, and the opportunity we now have... But that was by the UK
:56:03. > :56:06.Government, the European Union have done nothing but try to get the
:56:07. > :56:12.Irish Republic to give up on its beneficial rate of corporation tax.
:56:13. > :56:18.Last week it was bailing out the Irish government over Apple's tax
:56:19. > :56:25.payment. Let us see the response. You only have to see the
:56:26. > :56:28.transformation since we joined the European Union, and the Republic
:56:29. > :56:32.Ireland has adopted and and practised all the things the
:56:33. > :56:41.European Union gets. It is a huge market for the United Kingdom,
:56:42. > :57:00.representing 45% of exports. A declining percentage. Yes because
:57:01. > :57:05.the world is changing. With respect, let David answer. Then come back to
:57:06. > :57:09.you. The European Union is a place where, across the world,
:57:10. > :57:20.organisations and trading blocs want to do business with China. Bike in
:57:21. > :57:24.Switzerland do this, but we cannot? Because the World Trade
:57:25. > :57:34.Organisation... Would you like to hold all of this interview or can I
:57:35. > :57:40.respond? I really just want David to have an opportunity to respond. It
:57:41. > :57:44.is generating between 2700 and 3700 per person of value every year for
:57:45. > :57:50.citizens in the United Kingdom. In Northern Ireland, as the chief
:57:51. > :57:53.invests her said last week, there is a huge issue in Northern Ireland
:57:54. > :57:59.should we leave the European Union. What we need is to focus on the
:58:00. > :58:03.creation of good jobs, be part of a global trading block that has access
:58:04. > :58:06.to 500 million people on our doorstep. There are huge
:58:07. > :58:12.opportunities for us to engage with the rest of Europe and make it the
:58:13. > :58:17.success we have achieved. We trade with the world, and that is the
:58:18. > :58:23.challenge, we want to trade with the world and the European Union is not
:58:24. > :58:26.the world. We will be that they are. No meeting of minds, which I
:58:27. > :58:28.suspected. I'll be back with Stormont Today -
:58:29. > :58:34.that's Monday on BBC Two at 11:20am.