:00:37. > :00:45.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband and the
:00:45. > :00:48.rest of the Labour clan are in Brighton for their party conference
:00:48. > :00:52.this weekend. He's promised policies galore. But as a Sunday Politics
:00:52. > :00:56.poll finds a third of his own councillors don't think he's doing a
:00:56. > :01:00.good job, will that be enough to steady the Labour ship?
:01:00. > :01:06.partying like it's 2006, as Damian McBride's memoirs re-ignite the
:01:06. > :01:12.Blair-Brown wars. Alastair Campbell will tell us why he is sickened by
:01:12. > :01:14.the former Brown spin doctor. And speaking of political
:01:14. > :01:17.infighting, Conservative Party Chairman Grant Shapps will give his
:01:17. > :01:19.response to the rampant Tory-bashing at the Lib Dem Conference And with
:01:19. > :01:27.Coming up in Northern Ireland: me, as always, the best
:01:27. > :01:31.Coming up in Northern Ireland: Westminster wants to give free
:01:31. > :01:32.school meals to young children but are there better ways for
:01:32. > :01:32.school meals to young children but over the two thirds
:01:33. > :01:33.school meals to young children but are there better ways for storm want
:01:33. > :01:33.school meals to young children but over the two thirds of
:01:33. > :01:34.are there better ways for storm want to spend the education
:01:34. > :01:34.are there better ways for storm want over the two thirds of the ethnic
:01:34. > :01:34.are there better ways for storm want to spend the education budget?
:01:34. > :01:38.over the two thirds of the ethnic minority vote but now stands accused
:01:38. > :01:47.of institutional racism. Are they right? With me, the best and the
:01:47. > :01:51.brightest political panel in the business. Isabel Hardman, Janan
:01:51. > :01:54.Ganesh and Steve Richards. They'll be tweeting like demented Damians
:01:54. > :01:57.throughout the programme. First today, scrapping the bedroom tax.
:01:57. > :02:02.Universal childcare for primary school kids. More apprenticeships.
:02:02. > :02:05.Labour Conference only begins in earnest today, but the policy and
:02:05. > :02:09.spending commitments are coming thick and fast. Not before time,
:02:09. > :02:13.according to the Labour leader's critics. He's been out and about
:02:13. > :02:21.this morning and told Andrew Marr that he knew it was going to be a
:02:21. > :02:27.tough fight in the run up to 2015. It is about a party that lost office
:02:27. > :02:32.three years ago. We are trying to be a one term opposition. That is
:02:32. > :02:38.tough. I believe it is a fight that we can win and I am up for that
:02:38. > :02:42.fight. The stakes are so high for young people who want a job, for
:02:42. > :02:48.people whose living standards are being squeezed. For people who think
:02:48. > :02:55.that this is not good enough for Britain. So what do key Labour Party
:02:55. > :02:59.activists - its councillors - think about the direction Mr Miliband is
:02:59. > :03:02.taking their party? Adam Fleming is in Brighton at the Party Conference
:03:02. > :03:10.with all the details of our latest exclusive Sunday Politics survey.
:03:10. > :03:18.Labour have unwrapped their conference set. Let us unwrap them.
:03:18. > :03:22.With the help of an opinion poll we surveyed 1350 Labour councillors
:03:22. > :03:26.across England and Wales. We wanted to find out what they think as
:03:26. > :03:32.Labour gathers for its conference. The Labour leader warmed up for the
:03:32. > :03:36.week by taking to his soap box in Brighton city centre. It is great
:03:36. > :03:41.week by taking to his soap box in be here. In our survey 31% of
:03:41. > :03:47.councillors said they did not think Ed Miliband was doing a good job as
:03:47. > :03:50.leader. 30% said they thought the party would have a better chance if
:03:50. > :03:59.someone else was in charge at the next election. You will see more of
:03:59. > :04:09.Ed Miliband as we run-up to general election. He has been in the job for
:04:09. > :04:13.three years! Now it is crunch time. The other Ed, Ed Balls, was disliked
:04:13. > :04:20.by roughly one third of the party as well. Ed Balls is not a pop your
:04:20. > :04:25.man. He says things and he speaks his mind. -- not a popular man.
:04:25. > :04:33.Sometimes he is not the most diplomatic. Sadly Ed Balls did not
:04:33. > :04:39.seem to be that bothered about our survey. Over at a conference centre
:04:39. > :04:44.the exhibitors were starting up. When it comes to relations with
:04:44. > :04:49.trade unions, the majority of Labour councillors thought things were
:04:49. > :04:53.absolutely fine. Just 9% thought things with the unions were a little
:04:53. > :04:59.bit too close. Tricky because Ed Miliband want to loosen the link.
:04:59. > :05:03.The shadow environment secretary arrived in Brighton ride bicycle
:05:03. > :05:08.from London to raise money for charity. When we as Labour
:05:08. > :05:14.councillors what they would do if the next election results in a hung
:05:14. > :05:18.parliament, just over half said they would tell the lid Dems to get on
:05:18. > :05:23.their bikes. We would never say no to going into coalition. It gives us
:05:23. > :05:28.the chance to be in government and prepare some of the damage of the
:05:28. > :05:32.last three years. So are you going to start being nice about the Lib
:05:32. > :05:38.Dems? I always treat them with courtesy. And the parties admitted
:05:38. > :05:45.that perhaps they had opened the door to too many immigrants. It in
:05:45. > :05:50.our survey Labour councillors of warming the felt that immigration
:05:50. > :05:53.had been positive for the UK. We're now joined by the Shadow Chief
:05:53. > :06:03.Secretary to the Treasury, Rachel Reeves. Good morning. Let us start
:06:03. > :06:11.with Ed Miliband. Is it true that the team insisted that he be called
:06:11. > :06:18.the leader? I just call him Ed and I think the rest of the Shadow Cabinet
:06:18. > :06:26.do. Do you welcome working for a leader that says he is winning back
:06:26. > :06:30.socialism? We are a democratic socialist party. We make no
:06:31. > :06:34.apologies for that. The most important thing is that we have the
:06:34. > :06:38.apologies for that. The most policies that will improve people 's
:06:38. > :06:43.lives and tackle the cost of living crisis facing so many families.
:06:43. > :06:49.Policies like expanding childcare, offering more apprenticeships, all
:06:49. > :06:54.policies that I think the country are calling out for after three
:06:54. > :07:02.years of a flat-lining economy and seeing prices rise faster than wages
:07:02. > :07:05.for 38 out of the 39 months but David Cameron has been Prime
:07:05. > :07:11.Minister. I think that is the most important thing. So it is OK now to
:07:11. > :07:16.risk their to the Labour Party again as the Socialist party? The clue is
:07:16. > :07:21.in the name, we stand up for working people. You are socialist party
:07:21. > :07:26.according to the leader. We have always been the Labour Party, that
:07:26. > :07:31.is our name and we stand up for working people, not the privileged
:07:31. > :07:35.few like this government with their tax cuts for millionaires. Those are
:07:35. > :07:40.policies that help just the privileged few. The Labour Party is
:07:40. > :07:49.about helping everyone in Britain, all families. Interesting that your
:07:49. > :07:52.run don't use the word socialist. In our survey one third of Labour
:07:52. > :07:58.councillors said Ed Miliband was not doing a good job as leader. If he
:07:58. > :08:03.cannot convince his own councillors, who can he convince?
:08:03. > :08:08.Well you could say that two thirds of councillors think that he is the
:08:08. > :08:14.right leader. But these are Labour councillors. The overall majority of
:08:14. > :08:22.Labour councillors think that he is doing a good job. What matters is
:08:22. > :08:29.the results on election day. Two thirds of councillors think that he
:08:29. > :08:33.is doing a good job. That us see what they say at the end of this
:08:33. > :08:34.week. Because I think the policies he is announcing will go down well
:08:34. > :08:39.week. Because I think the policies with Labour Party people and will
:08:39. > :08:44.also resonate with the British public. Policies like expanding
:08:44. > :08:48.apprenticeships, giving a break to hard-working families who are
:08:48. > :08:53.struggling. I think people will see what kind of a leader that he is.
:08:53. > :09:02.Well he has a mountain to climb among all voters. Let me ask the
:09:02. > :09:06.question. Just 12% see him as a Prime Minister in waiting, just 2%
:09:06. > :09:11.see him as a natural leader. Why? If Prime Minister in waiting, just 2%
:09:11. > :09:16.you look at the overall opinion polls, we are consistently ahead in
:09:16. > :09:20.those polls. It is hard being leader of the opposition, you cannot
:09:20. > :09:27.demonstrate how you would be Prime Minister. By nature you are in
:09:27. > :09:32.opposition. But he has taken on Rupert Murdoch and the press barons.
:09:32. > :09:38.That is strong leadership, standing up to the vast majority. If you look
:09:38. > :09:45.at his reforms to our relationship with the trade unions, strengthening
:09:45. > :09:51.ties with individual members. I think that he is a strong leader
:09:51. > :09:58.making the right decisions. If that is the case, why has the Labour lead
:09:58. > :10:05.gone from 14 points one year ago to at most four points now. What went
:10:05. > :10:09.wrong? Well we are six or eight points ahead in the polls today. We
:10:09. > :10:12.are six or eight points ahead in the polls today. We're still
:10:12. > :10:16.consistently ahead. It looks as if we would get an overall majority if
:10:16. > :10:22.there was an election tomorrow. But we have more work to do to convince
:10:22. > :10:27.more people to vote for Labour. But this is a historic challenge, to be
:10:27. > :10:32.a one term Labour opposition. I believe that Ed Miliband will be the
:10:32. > :10:38.next Labour Prime Minister and will be an excellent Prime Minister. The
:10:38. > :10:41.big policy announcement today is the guaranteed childcare for all primary
:10:41. > :10:47.school children. How much will that cost? When Labour were in
:10:47. > :10:53.government, they ring fenced money to provide after-school --
:10:53. > :10:56.after-school and breakfast clubs. We think that money should be ring
:10:56. > :11:01.fenced again. How much will it cost? We are saying that schools
:11:01. > :11:07.within their budgets should be able to provide that. At the moment they
:11:07. > :11:13.can charge for children to come to their first clubs. But this is a
:11:13. > :11:18.policy that does not involve additional money. As it was under
:11:18. > :11:23.the last Labour government it will be about ring fencing money because
:11:23. > :11:28.we think that this is a priority. This is something that the schools
:11:28. > :11:33.should do. You cannot ring fenced money you do not have. You saying
:11:33. > :11:37.you could provide wraparound childcare for every family
:11:37. > :11:41.schoolchild from eight o'clock in the morning until six o'clock at
:11:41. > :11:46.night and it will not cost any more money? Well we did ring fence that
:11:46. > :11:52.money in the last Labour government. That money is gone! It has not gone.
:11:53. > :12:01.It is about priorities and we are saying that it should be a priority
:12:01. > :12:05.to provide that wraparound care. So where is the money being spent now
:12:05. > :12:10.that you would take it from? If we look at some of the things that this
:12:10. > :12:15.government is doing, building free schools in areas where there are
:12:15. > :12:21.already enough. That is capital spending. We are ring fencing that
:12:21. > :12:26.many. Again, it is different priorities. We had the ring fence
:12:26. > :12:32.when we were in government. It would be reintroduced so that schools had
:12:32. > :12:35.to offer that wraparound care. Of course schools can charge a small
:12:36. > :12:40.to offer that wraparound care. Of fee for their breakfast clubs and
:12:40. > :12:45.after-school DVDs. But the important thing is that provision is there for
:12:45. > :12:52.parents going out to work. Ed Balls and Ed Miliband are at the heart of
:12:52. > :12:55.the Brown project. Damien Wright was the hit man. Is it not inconceivable
:12:55. > :13:00.that they did not know what he was the hit man. Is it not inconceivable
:13:00. > :13:13.up to. It is inconceivable that they did not -- Damian McBride. I am
:13:13. > :13:19.asking about Damian McBride. What I'm saying is that I was not there.
:13:19. > :13:25.I was not there under the last Labour government. But I do know
:13:26. > :13:32.that these things are not happening under the leadership of Ed Miliband.
:13:32. > :13:39.He has led by example. There is not that backstabbing going on. There is
:13:39. > :13:45.no plotting against Ed Balls going on? I do not see that. And anyone
:13:45. > :13:53.who briefed against colleagues should be sacked, I agree with that.
:13:53. > :13:58.Nick Clegg's conference speech made it clear he was repaired to work
:13:58. > :14:06.with Ed Miliband in the event of a hung parliament. Are you excited by
:14:06. > :14:14.that prospect or is it just boring? That is very generous of Nick Clegg
:14:14. > :14:20.to say that. With his poll ratings of 9%. I think it is up to the
:14:20. > :14:24.general public to decide who they want to form a government. We are
:14:24. > :14:31.campaigning for an overall Labour government at the next election. Are
:14:31. > :14:39.you excited by the prospect, or is that just boring boring? I want to
:14:39. > :14:45.serve in a Labour government is not a coalition government. That is what
:14:45. > :14:50.we are campaigning for. Thank you for joining us. Steve Richards, what
:14:50. > :14:58.has Ed Miliband got to do this week? He has got to start to win the
:14:58. > :15:03.argument about the economy. I think they will be quite clever on that in
:15:03. > :15:08.terms of saying that the recovery has begun but it is not going to
:15:08. > :15:14.benefit many of the voters. Unlike previous economic recoveries. That
:15:14. > :15:24.is a strong line and they need to make that again and again. The
:15:24. > :15:28.recovery has barely started. The make that again and again. The
:15:28. > :15:31.interesting thing, Isabel, they want to make a living standards the issue
:15:31. > :15:34.now because growth has returned, let's return to living standards
:15:34. > :15:42.which have been squeezed. The polls show that twice as many people blame
:15:42. > :15:45.Labour for the living standards than the Conservatives. It is a great
:15:45. > :15:49.scene for them to mine, and it is the only one before they announce
:15:49. > :15:52.big policies, but they have not gained the trust of voters on the
:15:52. > :15:56.economy, so the Conservatives can say they are finishing the job of
:15:56. > :16:00.fixing the recovery now and then we'll focus on living standards,
:16:00. > :16:02.whereas Labour is trying to say, you cannot quite trust us with the
:16:02. > :16:08.economy but we will talk about living standards. Ed Miliband's main
:16:08. > :16:09.job this week is to begin elucidating policies and not just
:16:09. > :16:12.themes, and that makes elucidating policies and not just
:16:12. > :16:19.incredibly vulnerable. The only thing worse than not having a policy
:16:19. > :16:25.for an opposition leader is to have a policy. It gives the opposition
:16:25. > :16:28.something to attack, the media something to scrutinise and it makes
:16:28. > :16:33.you bold rubble and you can see that coming through already before the
:16:33. > :16:42.conference has started. You have sketchy ideas on child, --
:16:42. > :16:48.childcare. Spigot can he provide wraparound childcare for free? --
:16:48. > :16:56.can he provide wraparound childcare for free? I don't even know what it
:16:56. > :17:00.is. Opposition is emphatically an art form, and the art form, and the
:17:00. > :17:05.artform for them at the moment is to announce policies without spending
:17:06. > :17:09.any money and it is very difficult to do. You gave an illustration of
:17:09. > :17:14.how difficult it is. They are under huge pressure, for the last year, to
:17:14. > :17:18.announce policies and they announce one on childcare and you immediately
:17:19. > :17:23.say, how do you paper it? And she immediately says, we will not spend
:17:23. > :17:29.a penny on it, because they are terrified of spending anything. This
:17:29. > :17:34.is where it an artform. The tax suspension before and election is
:17:34. > :17:39.crazy, because they will find money one way or another, but in another
:17:39. > :17:44.way, they cannot say we will spend money on this. It is a real problem.
:17:44. > :17:48.How do you measure the state of the coalition after the Liberal Democrat
:17:48. > :17:51.conference? The Liberal Democrats were in a very strong position after
:17:51. > :17:56.their conference, Nick Clegg had faced and activists on some issues,
:17:56. > :18:01.including fracking, which they supported, which seem to be the most
:18:01. > :18:05.important part of the conference. In terms of the coalition, the Tories
:18:05. > :18:08.have had to sit and watch as Vince Cable, Nick Clegg and Coe have
:18:08. > :18:12.basically criticised them and said they are evil and only the Lib Dems
:18:12. > :18:15.can make sure the Government is fair and works properly. So in terms of
:18:15. > :18:20.how the coalition works, you can expect to see some revenge at the
:18:20. > :18:32.Tory conference. The Lib Dems, Nick Clegg's followers, they had their
:18:32. > :18:34.revenge. Mister Clegg may have convinced his own activists to stay
:18:34. > :18:39.behind him, but he has a bigger challenge, which is called
:18:39. > :18:42.convincing the British people. There is some interesting polling they
:18:42. > :18:47.have done privately that suggests there is a market of about 25% of
:18:47. > :18:50.the electorate which is plausibly open to them, and all they have to
:18:50. > :18:54.do is target policies remorselessly at that group, rather than the
:18:54. > :18:58.broader public, in order to do well enough at the next election to hold
:18:58. > :19:02.the balance of power. That is why policies that seem weird to us, like
:19:02. > :19:16.free school meals regardless of income, may perversely make sense to
:19:16. > :19:18.them. Because it appeals to their demographic. It is a strange
:19:18. > :19:21.political world we are in, the Labour strategists think they can
:19:21. > :19:23.win with 35%, the Lib Dems are going to concentrate on 25. The Tories
:19:23. > :19:28.have seized to be a national party any more. We haven't been used to it
:19:28. > :19:32.for a long time. In the 80s, one party dominated, the Tories. In the
:19:32. > :19:39.90s into the 21st century, the policy matter delayed the Labour
:19:39. > :19:44.Party dominated. -- the Labour party dominated. We are now here but we
:19:44. > :19:48.have other parties hoping that 36% will give them a small overall
:19:48. > :19:53.majority and it is the best they can get. It is a very odd situation
:19:53. > :20:01.where the main two parties feel they can lose and the Lib Dems are openly
:20:01. > :20:05.targeting only 25%. They have gotten rid of 75% already and it is a long
:20:05. > :20:13.way from the policies of last couple of decades Nick Clegg talked about
:20:13. > :20:16.all of the policies he had locked. There is a real opportunity for the
:20:16. > :20:20.Conservatives to say that he is blocking all of the things that
:20:20. > :20:23.voters outside of our bays are interested in, top immigration
:20:23. > :20:28.policy, human rights reform, that sort of thing. David Cameron can say
:20:28. > :20:43.that in Manchester next week. One thing was quite clear, it came out
:20:43. > :20:49.of this awayday, and and this is this, that when you look at Mister
:20:49. > :20:53.Miller band's polls, the Tories are going to make this a presidential
:20:53. > :21:00.election -- Ed Miliband's polls. Which is why I am curious why they
:21:00. > :21:03.are not more keen on TV debates. When the strength of your party is
:21:03. > :21:07.the visibility of your leader against his opponents, why not have
:21:07. > :21:13.him or her juxtaposed against them in 90 minutes three times a week.
:21:13. > :21:16.Let's turn now to the coalition. The past week has given us inklings of
:21:17. > :21:18.how the yellow half of the Government is planning on fighting
:21:18. > :21:22.how the yellow half of the the General Election.
:21:22. > :21:26.When the Lib Dems gathered for their annual shindig in Glasgow, some
:21:26. > :21:32.ministers were non-too complimentary about their blue blood fellows. --
:21:32. > :21:36.bedfellows. Vince Cable led the way in stick in the boot in, saying the
:21:36. > :21:41.Tories had reverted to type as a nasty party and describe their
:21:41. > :21:44.politics as ugly, cynical, callous and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not
:21:44. > :21:46.restrict himself to policies that and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not
:21:46. > :21:49.the Lib Dems had champion, such as and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not
:21:49. > :21:59.increasing the amount you can earn before paying tax. The Deputy Prime
:21:59. > :22:02.Minister proudly listed all of the things he had stopped the Tories
:22:02. > :22:06.from doing. Speak of scrapping housing benefit the young people,
:22:06. > :22:13.no. No to ditching the human rights act. No to weakening the protections
:22:13. > :22:17.in the equalities act. So how much of a break have the yellow brigade
:22:17. > :22:21.being on Conservative ambitions question mark in the two leaders
:22:21. > :22:27.shake hands again after the 20 15th election, what policies were David
:22:27. > :22:29.Cameron insist on. -- 2015? No matter how many times Nick Clegg
:22:29. > :22:32.says no? matter how many times Nick Clegg
:22:32. > :22:38.And Grant Shapps joins me the Sunday Interview.
:22:38. > :22:45.Grant Shapps, good morning. Nick Clegg, Doctor Know himself,
:22:45. > :22:51.self-styled. He boasted to his conference that he had stopped the
:22:51. > :22:55.Tories from going ahead with 16 policies in government. Is this
:22:55. > :23:00.accurate? I don't know but what I can tell you, as your commentator
:23:00. > :23:04.Isabel said, some of the policies that we wanted them if we were a
:23:04. > :23:08.majority government sent out to be very popular things, like reforming
:23:08. > :23:12.the human rights act and some of the problems that provides when it comes
:23:12. > :23:15.to sending people who have no right to be in this country back. So there
:23:15. > :23:20.may be some things we could have made progress on. You are in
:23:20. > :23:25.government, did he stop the inheritance tax cut? I don't know
:23:25. > :23:29.the details, but I think it is absolutely true to say that
:23:29. > :23:34.coalitions are a process of negotiation and sometimes you can't
:23:34. > :23:37.get everything you want, and we had done the best, given where the
:23:37. > :23:40.electoral maths left us. That is why 70 people in this country say they
:23:40. > :23:47.would rather see a single party running the country -- why so many
:23:47. > :23:50.people. I have to say I agree. They are not sure which single party.
:23:50. > :23:54.Give me a couple of major policies that you would introduce if you had
:23:54. > :24:02.had a majority in 2010 and were not held back by the Lib Dems. Speaking
:24:02. > :24:06.the one I just mentioned would be the Human Rights Act. In This
:24:06. > :24:10.Country, we have had 1,000 years of developing the law and we are more
:24:10. > :24:15.than capable of putting in place sensible laws. you would have left
:24:15. > :24:19.the European Court of human rights. We have already started the process
:24:19. > :24:24.of negotiation. There was some progress, but limited, and we would
:24:24. > :24:28.like to move further. Let me give you one other. I think this country
:24:28. > :24:30.has a great future but we can only grasp that country if we make
:24:30. > :24:32.ourselves the best place in the world to come and set up a business.
:24:32. > :24:37.ourselves the best place in the If we make ourselves the best place
:24:37. > :24:40.in Europe to develop jobs and entrepreneurship and I think there
:24:40. > :24:44.are a host of things we could do to go further on cutting back red tape.
:24:45. > :24:52.And the Lib Dems have stopped you? I think that is the case. In what
:24:52. > :24:57.ways, if any, have the Lib Dems improved the coalition process? It
:24:57. > :25:00.has been a stable government. No one talks about when the next election
:25:00. > :25:08.will come, we know it is in May 2015 but that is in part being in a
:25:08. > :25:13.coalition. The Tories wouldn't have done that? It wasn't the plan of any
:25:13. > :25:18.party to go from... In the old days, there would have been speculation.
:25:18. > :25:21.You turned it into a national debate, you changed the British
:25:21. > :25:28.constitution in a fundamental way and nobody got a say. It was debated
:25:28. > :25:33.on the floor of the Has, as all constitutional changes are and there
:25:33. > :25:36.was a lot of agreement -- of the House. Nobody has ever said to me
:25:36. > :25:44.that it is a problem that we now have a fixed term parliament. Here
:25:44. > :25:49.it is, every five years. This is what it has done, it has provided
:25:49. > :25:53.stability in an incredibly uncertain economic time and that has been good
:25:53. > :26:07.for the economy. we will chalk that up to delete -- Lib Dem. What about
:26:07. > :26:10.taking people out of tax, the Lib Dems did that question mark it is a
:26:11. > :26:18.great policy. It is a conservative led government, it is a Conservative
:26:18. > :26:24.government massively Chancellor. This is a screen grab from your
:26:25. > :26:28.party's website, income tax cut to 25 million people. You are taking
:26:28. > :26:31.the credit for it, it wouldn't have happened without the Lib Dems. It
:26:31. > :26:35.certainly came about because of the coalition and we put it in the
:26:35. > :26:40.coalition agreement. It could not have happened without a Conservative
:26:41. > :26:45.Chancellor making it happen. It is right, 25 million people taken out
:26:45. > :26:51.of tax. Another 17 by this April will not be paying tax at all. you
:26:51. > :27:02.didn't want to do it. Look at what David Cameron told Nick Clegg during
:27:02. > :27:07.the leaders debate in 2010. What Nick Clegg is promising is a
:27:07. > :27:12.£17 billion tax cut. We are saying, stop the waste of 6 billion to stop
:27:12. > :27:14.the national insurance rise. I would love to take everyone out of their
:27:14. > :27:18.first £10,000 of income tax, it is a love to take everyone out of their
:27:18. > :27:23.beautiful idea but we cannot afford it. It wasn't in your manifesto.
:27:23. > :27:28.Mister Cameron said it was unaffordable and now you are taking
:27:28. > :27:33.the credit for it. I feel like it is having a three year afterwards
:27:33. > :27:35.argument, and we got into coalition because the British people put us
:27:35. > :27:40.there and we agreed to make the best of it. And as it happens, if you
:27:40. > :27:43.want to hear a confession, I absolutely think it is the right
:27:43. > :27:48.thing to take as many people out of tax entirely as possible. Two points
:27:48. > :27:54.7 million people pay no tax at all because of this rise in the
:27:54. > :28:00.threshold. -- 2.7 million. I'm pleased it worked out. What are the
:28:00. > :28:05.most important thing is a majority Tory government would do after 2015,
:28:05. > :28:08.unencumbered by the Lib Dems? I think produce even more jobs when
:28:08. > :28:11.unemployment goes down, because we think produce even more jobs when
:28:11. > :28:16.are the most entrepreneurial place to set up a business. Are more
:28:17. > :28:24.free-market economy? We make our money because we are out global
:28:24. > :28:29.trading economy. That is why it is so important that we have to make
:28:29. > :28:32.sure it is easy to trade around the world. One simple example, it is
:28:32. > :28:36.crazy in my view that we have global tariffs that prevent some of the
:28:36. > :28:40.hardest other countries in the world, in developing parts of the
:28:40. > :28:46.world, from exporting to us and vice versa. I'm giving you a platform of
:28:46. > :28:51.things that I think we would be more interested in progressing in. It
:28:51. > :28:58.sounds like you are talking about even more Thatcherite, market led
:28:58. > :29:02.agendas. I think that you did a huge amount to show this country that if
:29:02. > :29:05.you want to help the least well off people in society, and the least
:29:06. > :29:09.well off people in the world, around the globe, the way to do it is to
:29:09. > :29:15.trade, and I think we should have an economy which is much more open to
:29:15. > :29:19.free trade. If there is another hung parliament, and the poll suggest
:29:19. > :29:25.there might be, at the moment it is all to play for on both sides, what
:29:25. > :29:32.would your non-negotiable Red Line speak? We are still two years away
:29:32. > :29:36.from that, it is a long way away, but there is a lot we want to lay
:29:36. > :29:40.out. What we are going to be saying to this country is most people want
:29:40. > :29:45.a single party running the country, they think it is clean and clear and
:29:45. > :29:48.you don't end up with negotiation after an election. We will be
:29:48. > :29:51.setting out a very clear platform which will be for hard-working
:29:51. > :29:56.people in this country who want to work hard and get on in life. We
:29:56. > :29:59.would, I think, want to see the welfare state that we have got into,
:29:59. > :30:03.where it is no longer about helping those most in need but became a
:30:03. > :30:08.situation where you are better off not working than in worker, I think
:30:08. > :30:12.we plan to ensure that this is an incredibly fair place to go out and
:30:12. > :30:15.do a day's work and get the money at the end of the day rather than
:30:16. > :30:20.thinking there is an alternative. you have promised a referendum on UK
:30:20. > :30:27.membership of the EU in 2017, that must be your first Red Line? We are
:30:27. > :30:35.clear, we want to see a referendum, a reform European Union. So no
:30:35. > :30:39.poll... ? I should remind viewers that there is an act of Parliament,
:30:39. > :30:47.a bill going through Parliament right now, for a referendum on the
:30:47. > :30:50.EU, which comes back to the House. It is past the report stage and
:30:50. > :30:55.comes back in November and we will be discussing it. The Lib Dems,
:30:55. > :31:01.Labour, will have an opportunity to support what the British people
:31:01. > :31:04.want. Lots may have changed. But it would be a Red Line for any future
:31:04. > :31:10.coalition government question mark we are clear that it is time to have
:31:10. > :31:17.a say. You will know from our manifesto. What is wrong with yes or
:31:17. > :31:22.no? I cannot write the manifesto for 2015. You are asking me to project
:31:22. > :31:27.beyond that and see in advance the election result and carry out the
:31:27. > :31:32.negotiations that are yet to come. I'm just trying to work out how
:31:32. > :31:42.much... I know you are committed but she won't tell me. Let's move on.
:31:42. > :31:48.Your party has been described as nasty and blinkered. What do you
:31:48. > :31:55.feel when he says that? We are interested in helping the most
:31:55. > :32:02.vulnerable people in society. I think we're doing all that and more.
:32:02. > :32:06.And it is a shame that that language was used because we have made so
:32:06. > :32:19.much progress together. Are you getting to the end of your tether
:32:19. > :32:25.with Mr King? I do not think it is terribly helpful for any Cabinet
:32:25. > :32:31.minister to make comments like that. What I would say is that Nick Clegg
:32:31. > :32:38.minister to make comments like that. is the leader of the Lib Dems and
:32:38. > :32:45.entitled to have a view on it himself. Look at these figures on
:32:45. > :32:48.party membership. Why has your party lost half of its members since Mr
:32:48. > :32:54.party membership. Why has your party Cameron became leader? I would like
:32:54. > :32:59.it to be more. But I think the world has changed. People do not rush out
:32:59. > :33:08.and join political parties as they used to. Instead they support you in
:33:08. > :33:12.different ways. If I released the number of people who give to the
:33:12. > :33:19.party in different ways, through donations for example, through
:33:19. > :33:26.friend memberships. If you include that that figure goes back up. But
:33:26. > :33:36.your membership has fallen by 50% at a time when UKIP has doubled. I do
:33:36. > :33:44.not want to to misinterpret what I want to say. It is important to gain
:33:44. > :33:48.members. I think we will have done that by the time of the next
:33:48. > :33:55.election. But one statistic of interest, in the last election I had
:33:55. > :34:00.a 17,000 majority in my own constituency. The difference was I
:34:00. > :34:05.had 1000 people helping me to deliver leaflets and knock on the
:34:05. > :34:15.doors. The Conservative party has changed. We now have an army of
:34:15. > :34:21.people, volunteers who are not necessarily traditional members. The
:34:21. > :34:26.days when you expect people to give you £25, before you accept their
:34:26. > :34:33.support, those days have passed. You spoke about your most vulnerable
:34:33. > :34:41.marginal seats. This is a poll from Michael Ashcroft. The 40 most
:34:41. > :34:49.marginal seats that you will be defending. Labour is way up, you are
:34:49. > :34:59.way down and UKIP is also up. What is happening, the Lib Dem Mo -- both
:34:59. > :35:03.are moving to Labour. And disillusioned Conservatives are
:35:03. > :35:09.moving to UKIP. If these figures came at an election he would lose 32
:35:10. > :35:14.of these 40 seats. The point about any opinion poll is that it is
:35:14. > :35:19.perhaps accurate at the moment it is taken. We are now in a position
:35:19. > :35:30.where the economy has turned the corner. The right thing to do was to
:35:30. > :35:36.deal with the deficit. The people being asked about these things, they
:35:36. > :35:42.will be interested in their own standard of living. Their mortgage
:35:42. > :35:50.payments. Why are you doing worse in the marginal seats? National League
:35:50. > :35:57.you are kind of nip and tuck with Labour. Well if that is the pick to
:35:57. > :36:01.come 2015, people will see that this government has stuck to its guns. It
:36:01. > :36:07.did not go for more borrowing and spending. And the record
:36:07. > :36:12.demonstrates that the last thing you want to do is give the car keys back
:36:13. > :36:18.to the people who crashed it in the first place. Lynton Crosby at this
:36:18. > :36:25.away day of Conservative MPs, his one message was to go all out and
:36:25. > :36:31.attack Ed Miliband. It is going to be a nasty election. That is
:36:31. > :36:37.actually not true. We are going to focus on his policies, if he finally
:36:37. > :36:43.announces some. Everything we have seen so far suggests it would mean
:36:43. > :36:54.more borrowing and spending. The shadow chancellor said we would be
:36:54. > :36:59.ruthless, just a few months later, 27.9 pounds of extra spending
:36:59. > :37:08.committed by Labour. These are your figures. I will speak to you about
:37:08. > :37:11.that during the Tory conference. It's just after 11:30. You're
:37:11. > :37:16.watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes. Alastair
:37:16. > :37:19.Campbell gives us his not-too-positive review of Damian
:37:19. > :37:27.McBride's memoirs. Until then, the Sunday Politics
:37:27. > :37:31.Hello, And Welcome To Sunday Politics In Northern Ireland.
:37:31. > :37:34.Should Stormont Follow The Lead Of Westminster And Give Free School
:37:34. > :37:39.Meals To All Children In Primaries One To Three? Or Is There A Better
:37:39. > :37:42.Way Of Spending The Dinner Money? We'll Hear From The Chair Of The
:37:42. > :37:46.Education Committee, Mervyn Storey, And Sinn Fein's Chris Hazzard. And
:37:46. > :37:48.Another Saturday Loyalist Protest In Belfast City Centre. Just How
:37:48. > :37:56.Damaging Are The Demonstrations For Local Businesses?
:37:56. > :37:59.And Joining Me To Reflect On Another Busy Week In Politics Here, I'm
:37:59. > :38:06.Joined By The Director Of Include Youth, Koulla Yiasouma And
:38:06. > :38:10.Journalist Steven Mccaffrey. Our Politicians Have Been Getting
:38:10. > :38:13.Themselves Into A Bit Of Stew This Week Over How An Extra Allocation Of
:38:13. > :38:16.Cash From Westminster Should Be Spent. Around £20 Million Is
:38:16. > :38:19.Expected To Be On Its Way To Stormont After The Deputy Prime
:38:19. > :38:21.Minister, Nick Clegg, Announced That All Children In Primaries One To
:38:21. > :38:25.Three In England Are To Get Free All Children In Primaries One To
:38:25. > :38:27.School Meals. But As Our Education Correspondent, Maggie Taggart,
:38:27. > :38:36.Reports, Not Everyone Thinks The Policy Is A Good Idea.
:38:36. > :38:41.If We Get The Same Deal As In England, The Number Of Young
:38:41. > :38:49.Children Coming Here Could Double. At The Moment, Most Children Take A
:38:49. > :38:54.Packed Lunch And Half Get A Dinner. What Do Parents Here Think Of The
:38:54. > :39:18.Plan To Give Out Free Meals? It Is An Excellent Idea. They Should All
:39:18. > :39:24.Be Treated The Same Way. I do not know if the government could sustain
:39:24. > :39:36.the cost. If children's families are entitled to school meals, they
:39:36. > :39:40.should get them. Initially our frustration is this is a top-down
:39:40. > :39:43.should get them. Initially our government imposed initiative.
:39:43. > :39:48.Sometimes we think it is better asking schools what are the key
:39:48. > :39:55.priorities? There is also a worry that a free offer might mean a lot
:39:55. > :40:00.of food wasted. The younger the children they tend to have a couple
:40:00. > :40:10.of scoops and the way. The older children are keen on seconds and
:40:10. > :40:15.thirds. White it is understood Northern Ireland could get about 20
:40:15. > :40:19.million. But before parents give up making packed lunches we are told
:40:19. > :40:23.the money would not be ring fenced and the executive should decide
:40:23. > :40:28.whether it should go towards food or the Department of education. There
:40:28. > :40:35.was evidence children who eat well known well. Universal free meals
:40:35. > :40:39.improved performance. There is some evidence of attainment games but
:40:39. > :40:44.they were not significant for the least affluent. What they did not
:40:44. > :40:49.compare to those other interventions like one to one tuition. The money
:40:49. > :40:53.will be formally approved in the next few weeks but will not be
:40:53. > :40:58.available until this time next year. In the meantime, the assembly will
:40:58. > :40:59.be chewing over how it will be spent.
:40:59. > :41:02.Maggie Taggart reporting. I'm joined by two members of the Education
:41:02. > :41:11.Committee, its Chair, Mervyn Storey, and Sinn Fein's Chris Hazzard. You
:41:11. > :41:18.are Sinn Fein's education spokesman. Do you think John O'Dowd will want
:41:18. > :41:23.to follow the English example? I am sure John will want to get his money
:41:23. > :41:30.in the hands first to decide how it will be spent. There are a suite of
:41:30. > :41:36.measures we could invest in, free school meals is one. We have seen
:41:36. > :41:43.John extends the criteria so no doubt he will want to get the money
:41:43. > :41:48.first to see what the benefits could be. Is it your position that free
:41:48. > :41:54.school meals is an instrument which could help educational attainment
:41:54. > :42:00.for children of all backgrounds? The health and financial benefits of
:42:00. > :42:06.without a doubt. It all leads into a culture that needs to academic
:42:06. > :42:14.success. Is it a blunt instrument in your view, Mervyn? There is evidence
:42:14. > :42:22.that this is a very blunt instrument. If we separate the menu
:42:22. > :42:26.in relation to this issue, the then set of free school meals, that is a
:42:26. > :42:31.very desirable and beneficial outcome. However, if free school
:42:31. > :42:32.meals are used as a trigger mechanism to ensure that more
:42:32. > :42:38.funding goes schools, therein lies mechanism to ensure that more
:42:38. > :42:41.the major disparity and the major problem because a child could be in
:42:41. > :42:47.receipt of free school meals but problem because a child could be in
:42:47. > :42:50.could not have access to speak and language and let's remember, what
:42:50. > :42:56.has been described as the working poor. There are many families who
:42:56. > :43:00.struggle who do not fall within the threshold and they cannot understand
:43:00. > :43:09.that every time that it seems working families are penalised.
:43:09. > :43:16.Given what you have just said, are there more effective ways of using
:43:16. > :43:20.this money, assuming it comes to education? I think their race. If
:43:21. > :43:26.you look at the way money is squandered, the issue is not the
:43:26. > :43:34.amount of money it is the way they spend it. We have seen a fiasco in
:43:34. > :43:38.relation to levels of progression and they have all been expensive
:43:38. > :43:42.blunders and failures on the part of the department and I would be
:43:42. > :43:48.worried about giving the Department of education, given its current
:43:48. > :43:54.track record, an additional £20 million. It touches on a serious
:43:54. > :44:00.point. People are wondering why you would use public money to pay for
:44:00. > :44:04.meals for children whose parents can already pay for those meals. It is
:44:04. > :44:08.meals for children whose parents can about the culture of schools. Our
:44:08. > :44:15.children are very acute social and tonight. It is about how the canteen
:44:15. > :44:19.can become a hub where teachers and all the children sit down, there is
:44:19. > :44:28.no cars and them, table manners are improved, everything improves. Our
:44:28. > :44:34.education system, the most fundamental flaw is the poverty
:44:34. > :44:40.floor and we have to address this. Table manners, if eating together
:44:40. > :44:44.helps from a social point of view, children who come from socially
:44:44. > :44:49.deprived backgrounds, their meals would be paid for, they will sit
:44:49. > :45:01.alongside children whose parents are paying for meals, that is a red
:45:01. > :45:05.herring. It does not have to be the stereotypical tray with big
:45:05. > :45:08.lunches. It could be an extension of breakfast clubs but the conversation
:45:08. > :45:14.lunches. It could be an extension of has started. It is making sure we
:45:14. > :45:19.address the poverty floor. It is about meeting the needs of children
:45:19. > :45:24.and this is the difficulty. What is the primary need of children in our
:45:24. > :45:30.classrooms? It is to ensure their educational needs are met and
:45:30. > :45:36.clearly we have one in four children leaving primary schools with major
:45:36. > :45:39.issues. Despite millions of pounds, going back to 1999 when the
:45:39. > :45:46.Department of education squandered 40 million, we have still not
:45:46. > :45:55.address that need and it is about need and feed. In that film, Tony
:45:55. > :46:01.Gallagher was making the point there that there are other areas where the
:46:01. > :46:08.money could be spent, for example tuition, early years intervention.
:46:08. > :46:10.Without a doubt. Free school meals is not a silver bullet that will
:46:10. > :46:16.Without a doubt. Free school meals cause achievement to go up at if you
:46:16. > :46:21.look at the case of children in low income families, they are 100% less
:46:21. > :46:26.likely to achieve than those from more affluent families. Why are we
:46:26. > :46:37.now in a situation when the education Minister, he said he had
:46:37. > :46:40.no intention, the focus had to be on early years intervention. Now he had
:46:41. > :46:46.made the announcement he when extended to post primary, so clearly
:46:46. > :46:50.I think the focus needs to go back to those early years because we have
:46:50. > :46:54.not and early years policy ten years after what was promised and those
:46:54. > :46:59.not and early years policy ten years are the heart for delivering the
:46:59. > :47:06.needs of our children. Just to be clear, will you be recommending your
:47:06. > :47:11.party colleagues that this £20 million goes in the first instance
:47:11. > :47:16.to the Department of education and then they soaked up spending should
:47:16. > :47:33.be eight conversation on how it should be best spent? The current
:47:33. > :47:38.education minister has refused to enter into the process in relation
:47:38. > :47:47.to the savings and delivery plans because he believes he is spending
:47:47. > :47:54.his money well. It is a perverse sense of thinking about it. Have a
:47:54. > :48:00.case where five or six years ago, 24% of kids in low income families
:48:00. > :48:13.were achieving good GCSEs. It is now up 10%. Free school meals we will
:48:13. > :48:17.see 79% of our schools losing out in funding. That is the real reason why
:48:17. > :48:23.the department is using free school meals.
:48:23. > :48:28.Mervyn Storey and Chris Hazzard, thank you. With me are Koulla
:48:28. > :48:36.Yiasouma, Director of Include Youth, and the journalist Steven McCaffery.
:48:36. > :48:41.You are in the business of advocating for young people, where
:48:41. > :48:47.the use stand on the school free meals debate? The debate this
:48:47. > :48:49.morning and the piece demonstrates this is quite complicated. Northern
:48:50. > :48:55.Ireland has a good education system and then it gets worse as children
:48:55. > :49:03.get older so free school meals is not the panacea. Free school meals
:49:03. > :49:09.is only good as the uptake of them. Nutrition benefits young children's
:49:09. > :49:15.ability to learn and poor ritual during do less well. 34% of children
:49:15. > :49:24.in time to to free school meals get during do less well. 34% of children
:49:24. > :49:29.good GCSEs. There is a huge gap. There is a number of initiatives we
:49:29. > :49:31.need. Free school meals is part of the issue but not the whole answer.
:49:31. > :49:36.Is that how you see it? It is a very the issue but not the whole answer.
:49:36. > :49:45.serious issue. The Lib Dems were the issue but not the whole answer.
:49:45. > :49:49.accused of trying to score political points and attract votes and IM not
:49:49. > :49:59.suggesting the two main parties are not taking this seriously but you
:49:59. > :50:01.would be surprised and old enough to remember when Margaret Thatcher took
:50:01. > :50:08.would be surprised and old enough to away the milk from kids. Is there a
:50:08. > :50:17.little bit of politics? Again, perish the thought that politicians
:50:17. > :50:24.would be like that. I am in no doubt the elections are playing a part. It
:50:24. > :50:28.is enormously complicated and there is no guarantee that this money will
:50:28. > :50:34.go to education in the first instance. We have priorities in
:50:34. > :50:40.government but I really think there are bottomless pits. If this money
:50:40. > :50:45.is done for education, it should go to the Department of education. It
:50:45. > :50:50.is them and the schools and parents and families need to say what is the
:50:50. > :50:56.best way to spend this money? How can we bridge the gap? Chris
:50:56. > :51:08.Hazzard, do you think there may be some truth in DD UPI looking over
:51:08. > :51:14.their shoulder? I sit in studios and committee rooms and we talk about
:51:14. > :51:17.the need to tackle underachievement, especially in low income
:51:17. > :51:22.communities. Here is an example of the best way to do it. Let everyone
:51:22. > :51:30.step up to the plate and say let's go forward. That is the reason this
:51:30. > :51:39.has been done. However, if it is about convincing the electorate that
:51:39. > :51:48.this has been a good news story, let's see free school meals being
:51:48. > :51:54.used for political reasons. A very interesting debate. Thank you very
:51:54. > :52:02.much for joining us. Let's take a look back at the political week in
:52:02. > :52:07.60 seconds. US diplomats Richard Harris and
:52:07. > :52:12.Megan O'Sullivan begin the attempt to resolve the issues flags,
:52:12. > :52:16.protests and the past. The fact that this process was created by the
:52:16. > :52:21.leadership of Northern Ireland suggests to me there is well. Martin
:52:21. > :52:29.McGuinness remembers the past and next to the future with some but not
:52:29. > :52:34.all went -- bewilderment. As an investigation begins into child
:52:34. > :52:38.exportation, one MLA reveals why she abandoned the bill to clamp down on
:52:38. > :52:45.abuse. They taught me that this was not an issue and what I was
:52:45. > :52:49.proposing was criminalise young people in care. Free school meals
:52:49. > :52:53.for all infant pupils in England but will be assembly go for it? And the
:52:53. > :53:08.new finance minister starts with a smile.
:53:08. > :53:12.Gareth Gordon reporting. Another Saturday, another loyalist
:53:12. > :53:15.demonstration. It's now nine months since Belfast City Council voted to
:53:15. > :53:19.fly the union flag only on designated days. But the protests
:53:19. > :53:22.continue with an estimated 1,000 people marching from City Hall at
:53:22. > :53:27.lunchtime yesterday just as traders might have been expecting peak
:53:27. > :53:29.business. With me now is Ian Coulter, the
:53:29. > :53:34.business. Chair of the CBI here.
:53:34. > :53:38.About 1000 people took part in the Chair of the CBI here.
:53:38. > :53:43.parade and there were several thousands supporting them on the
:53:43. > :53:48.way. What is your verdict on what happened yesterday? I would like to
:53:48. > :53:54.take a step back and comment on the specific. Over the last 12 months
:53:54. > :53:58.there has been an explosion of the numbers of parades not just in
:53:58. > :54:03.Belfast but across Northern Ireland. If you look at the retail city
:54:03. > :54:11.centre figures, they have dropped by 10% which is a massive figure. Zero
:54:11. > :54:17.all to do with the protest. Is not at all but it is a major
:54:17. > :54:23.contributory factor. Your organisation has said that the
:54:23. > :54:29.protests this year is £15 million. That is an estimate but if you look
:54:29. > :54:36.at the figure, that is £55 million. This is the effect of things in the
:54:36. > :54:40.city centre but there is a hidden cost. All these protests and
:54:40. > :54:47.parades, be it whatever community, just adds up an extra layer of
:54:47. > :54:58.uncertainty as to where we are at the moment. Yesterday's parade was
:54:58. > :55:16.entirely peaceful. I accept that but you have one office and you put them
:55:16. > :55:23.all together... All of these discussions and business tends to be
:55:23. > :55:30.quite slow, where the rights for the business people? -- where are the
:55:30. > :55:36.right? How do you communicate that? You represent the business
:55:36. > :55:42.community, you talk to the politicians. How do you communicate
:55:42. > :55:47.with them and the people participating in organising these
:55:47. > :55:53.protests that it is not good for Belfast plc for that situation to
:55:53. > :55:59.continue? What we are calling on is restraint. The media plays a role in
:55:59. > :56:03.this. Yesterday, one of the retailers said the way the media pro
:56:03. > :56:08.trade yesterday 's events properly contributed as much to the lack of
:56:08. > :56:16.trade as to anything else. How is that the case? You simply report the
:56:16. > :56:20.fact it is happening. A retailer confirmed that the media coverage on
:56:20. > :56:28.Friday and Saturday did as much harm. You should talk about it but
:56:28. > :56:33.do not exaggerate it. Give me an example. There was an e-mail that
:56:33. > :56:38.was sent on Friday that there were going to be five or 600 participants
:56:38. > :56:47.or possibly up to 1000 maximum and on Saturday morning, other reports
:56:47. > :56:57.were of 3-4000 people. There is a need for restraint on all sides. We
:56:57. > :57:04.can deal with specifics but I would move back a bit. What we need to do
:57:04. > :57:08.is we need to find a way that for people who have got businesses in
:57:08. > :57:13.Belfast and businesses that are trying to grow internationally, how
:57:13. > :57:16.do you break the cycle and get the numbers of these parades and
:57:16. > :57:25.protests down to a manageable level? There is a challenge here to
:57:25. > :57:28.square that circle between people knowing what is happening and that
:57:28. > :57:32.square that circle between people being effectively reported but not
:57:32. > :57:40.exaggerating it in advance and not hyping it up for a people want to
:57:40. > :57:45.break the law. The media have to take their share of responsibility
:57:45. > :57:50.but weeks ago, we had a riot on Royal Avenue so I do not think the
:57:50. > :57:54.media can necessarily be blamed for causing public concern around
:57:54. > :57:58.yesterday 's parade. If people stayed away they stayed away because
:57:58. > :58:05.of what has been happening over the last year but the media have to play
:58:05. > :58:10.a careful role. How concerned are you at the potential impact of
:58:10. > :58:16.continuing parades on businesses to employ local people who depend on
:58:16. > :58:22.those jobs to continue running their families? Sometimes I think people
:58:22. > :58:26.forget the connections. We are based in Belfast city centre and I just
:58:26. > :58:32.forget the connections. We are based want to make a quick comparison. On
:58:32. > :58:39.Friday, we had culture night where 30,000 people thronged the streets.
:58:40. > :58:51.There was a march parade in the middle of Belfast in the afternoon.
:58:51. > :58:59.There was no e-mails saying be careful, so we do need to be
:58:59. > :59:03.careful. We need people protected. I want to see people marching because
:59:03. > :59:08.of property and to protect their rights. Generally they do not result
:59:08. > :59:16.in the destruction of property and we need to be careful as to how we
:59:16. > :59:21.manage this. The other issue is Richard Haas and the political
:59:21. > :59:26.developments. You went in with others to speak to Richard on
:59:26. > :59:31.Friday. Were you impressed with his handle on where we are? Greatly
:59:31. > :59:37.impressed. His team was very well briefed. Got to the issues
:59:37. > :59:42.immediately. I think they have the right team to help here and it bodes
:59:42. > :59:49.well. Is that the kind of noise you have been picking up as well? One
:59:49. > :59:54.feature of the talks process that has not caught the public emotion
:59:55. > :00:00.nation is the degree to which Washington is watching. Joe Biden
:00:00. > :00:08.could be visiting here so we need to get this right. BR the story of the
:00:08. > :00:14.week which is Safeguarding Children Board. We need to get better, let's
:00:14. > :00:17.remember we have been protecting children, we need to do it better
:00:17. > :00:21.together across all agencies. Thank Blackman and Sadiq Khan, thanks very
:00:21. > :00:34.much. Leafing through the papers the Blackman and Sadiq Khan, thanks very
:00:34. > :00:40.last few days has taken me back to my youth. The halcyon days of the
:00:40. > :00:44.2000s, when the warring Blairite and Brownite tribes fought over who
:00:44. > :00:47.should run the Labour Party. Gordon Brown's chief spin doctor Damian
:00:47. > :00:50.McBride - McPoison, or worse, to his enemies - has published his memoirs,
:00:50. > :00:59.timed for maximum impact in the week of Labour's Conference. They detail
:00:59. > :01:01.how Mr McBride briefed against colleagues, brought down Cabinet
:01:01. > :01:04.Ministers - Labour Cabinet Ministers, that is - and fought
:01:04. > :01:12.tooth and nail to promote the man he called "the greatest man he ever
:01:12. > :01:20.met" - Gordon Brown. Joining us now is Tony Blair's former Director of
:01:20. > :01:28.Communications, Alastair Campbell. You are angry about what he has done
:01:28. > :01:35.in this book. Why is that. It is partly the fact that he has done it
:01:35. > :01:39.in a way that will be -- will be damaging to the Labour Party at this
:01:39. > :01:45.time. But also because of the lies that he told at the time that he now
:01:45. > :01:51.confirms. I was director of communications and trying to hold
:01:51. > :01:59.the thing together, build the team. There was also Charlie Whelan and
:01:59. > :02:04.others. And that job was made more difficult than it should have been.
:02:04. > :02:13.I used to challenge Gordon Brown about it. And there came a stage
:02:13. > :02:18.where I said if Whelan does not go, I will go. And when Damian McBride
:02:18. > :02:25.was on the scene I was clear that I was not going to have anything to do
:02:25. > :02:29.with him. Because of what he is now admitting to, I think they played
:02:29. > :02:38.quite a significant part in pushing Labour out of power. Because the
:02:38. > :02:43.public were being fed by them, this narrative, the whole time. That
:02:43. > :02:50.Blair was useless, Charles Clarke was useless. And I think that we
:02:50. > :02:55.where the government and had very good ministers trying to do big
:02:55. > :03:02.things for the country. I said this morning it was like being a foot
:03:02. > :03:07.tall team were on the pitch you had your own players kicking the star
:03:07. > :03:11.players. That is why I am angry about it because I think they helped
:03:11. > :03:12.usher in a conservative government. If we had all stuck together I think
:03:12. > :03:18.we would still be there. The If we had all stuck together I think
:03:18. > :03:23.did not win the last election, that is a reasonable point. But surely
:03:23. > :03:29.they were only doing that to undermine Tony Blair and to promote
:03:29. > :03:34.their man, Gordon Brown. It is inconceivable then that Gordon Brown
:03:34. > :03:39.did not know about it. Well in spite of everything I always had a
:03:39. > :03:43.reasonably good relationship with Gordon Brown. I used to challenge
:03:43. > :03:51.him a lot about what Whelan was doing. He would always say, I will
:03:51. > :03:57.sort it out. Another thing that annoys me is this sense put forward
:03:57. > :04:04.by the right wing media that there was this sense of equivalence.
:04:04. > :04:10.People like Steve who I have known for years, there is not a single
:04:10. > :04:14.journalist with the very occasional exception where I lost my temper,
:04:14. > :04:20.who would honestly be able to tell you that I ever breathed against
:04:20. > :04:29.ministers. That was my golden rule. So we were presented as being...
:04:29. > :04:41.People say you were the forerunner. I know it was not the case. One of
:04:41. > :04:48.the reasons why I do despise what they did, the whole spin thing which
:04:48. > :04:57.Peter and I are probably most associated with, once I wrote a
:04:57. > :04:59.piece where I spoke about the journalists as the spin doctors. But
:04:59. > :05:03.actually within the government, I journalists as the spin doctors. But
:05:03. > :05:09.had a principle of maximum openness and trust. Anyone could come to the
:05:09. > :05:15.morning meetings on condition that what was discussed their state as
:05:15. > :05:20.part of the team. I had to say to Gordon Brown, your people are not
:05:20. > :05:25.coming. Because I knew where it was coming from. Did you know that the
:05:25. > :05:30.time but Charles Clarke and others were effectively being destroyed
:05:30. > :05:37.from within the Labour government? I certainly knew that they thought
:05:37. > :05:44.that. I did know journalists telling me that that was what was happening.
:05:44. > :05:51.Ultimately, this is why I never buy this thing that you can blame
:05:52. > :06:01.leaders, it is ultimately up to the litre. Possibly in a different age
:06:01. > :06:05.Gordon Brown would have been an amazing Prime Minister. He was a
:06:05. > :06:12.great chancellor. But he had a flaw, this need for truly horrible
:06:12. > :06:17.people to be around him doing truly horrible things in politics and
:06:17. > :06:23.giving him and the Labour Party and politics a bad name. That is why I'm
:06:23. > :06:31.still angry about Damian McBride. What do you make of it? The current
:06:31. > :06:37.administration is a contrast. We have rival factions occupying the
:06:37. > :06:42.same offices but they still get on. The only time they have a row is
:06:42. > :06:45.when something really big happens. But with that one party in Downing
:06:45. > :07:00.Street there was fighting the whole time. Did Ed Balls know about this.
:07:00. > :07:07.I would assume so. I spoke with him about it at the time. He told me at
:07:07. > :07:17.the time that he had spoken about it with Gordon Brown. So I think there
:07:17. > :07:24.was a concern from within that camp about some of these activities at
:07:24. > :07:29.the time. With this myth of equivalence, in life you expect to
:07:29. > :07:33.see that there is full on both sides. But I do not buy it in this
:07:33. > :07:35.see that there is full on both case. If you look at the testimonies
:07:35. > :07:40.see that there is full on both over the years, what you can surmise
:07:40. > :07:45.about the character of Gordon Brown and of Tony Blair, it was ultimately
:07:45. > :07:51.driven by Gordon Brown and the people around him. The Blairites did
:07:51. > :07:58.things but they did then by way of retaliation rather than initiation.
:07:58. > :08:04.The one-time when I did lose it was the whole psychological force thing.
:08:04. > :08:10.That came at the end of a period when we were relentlessly being done
:08:10. > :08:14.in by Charlie Whelan and his gang of journalists. I would go along to
:08:14. > :08:20.briefings and Stephen and his colleagues would be there and I just
:08:20. > :08:25.had to sit there and not hit back. Saying I cannot believe Gordon Brown
:08:25. > :08:29.would have anything to do with this. You get to the stage where your own
:08:29. > :08:36.credibility is on the line. Coming on the Labour conference. The
:08:36. > :08:42.promotion of alcohol awareness. But before that the Labour Party, you
:08:42. > :08:49.never had to deal with this in opposition because you were pretty
:08:49. > :08:57.far ahead in the polls by midterm. This time that is not the case. It
:08:57. > :09:04.is surprisingly narrow. What advice would you give to Ed Miliband? To
:09:04. > :09:09.keep his head out side of this bubble but it's all about him. And
:09:09. > :09:13.to use this week to really speak to the British people about himself,
:09:14. > :09:18.about what he believes. And particularly the kind of policy
:09:19. > :09:27.agenda he is shaping for the future. And start to heart -- start to hit
:09:27. > :09:31.the Tories hard. They're not pop, they're not competent. They're
:09:31. > :09:36.screwing up the health service. And yet they are neck and neck. I would
:09:37. > :09:42.say that the whole Shadow Cabinet and Labour Party has got to
:09:42. > :09:45.understand that you win elections by wanting to win elections every
:09:45. > :09:54.minute of every day. There is too much complacency. A small lead now
:09:54. > :10:01.you have to grow that. You do that with energy and conviction and
:10:01. > :10:08.policy. Tony Blair had a huge pole bead in the run-up to 1997. We were
:10:08. > :10:13.winning seat where we had not even campaigned and he was saying, why
:10:13. > :10:17.celebrate because we have not won yet. You are promoting your alcohol
:10:17. > :10:22.awareness campaign. Perhaps the party conference is not the best
:10:22. > :10:30.place to do that! That is one reason why I am doing that. I'm hosting
:10:30. > :10:36.probably the only alcohol free reception of the week! There is
:10:36. > :10:47.nothing worse than a convert, I know that. But I travel a lot. I travel
:10:47. > :10:50.around the world and Britain has a reputation as being the blues
:10:50. > :10:57.capital of the world. That is something we should be ashamed of.
:10:57. > :11:04.Why is that, is it cultural? I think it is historical. But I dig David
:11:04. > :11:17.Cameron was right to go for minimum unit pricing and wrong to do a
:11:17. > :11:24.reversal. 6% of alcoholics get treatment. I expect that drugs are a
:11:24. > :11:28.problem but we spent £2 billion on 100,000 problem drug takers and £91
:11:28. > :11:35.million on 1.6 million problem drinkers. Part of this campaign, you
:11:35. > :11:42.have written this book about a young drinkers. Part of this campaign, you
:11:42. > :11:48.alcoholic, a teenager. And it is in the first person. People could think
:11:48. > :11:56.you are writing about yourself. Why did you choose a teenage girl? Well
:11:56. > :12:01.partly, I dedicated this to the families of alcoholics. And I
:12:01. > :12:07.dedicated it to one doctor in Southampton. He told me when he
:12:07. > :12:14.started his career that his patience was split nine to one, men to women
:12:14. > :12:22.and it is now 50 - 50. They're getting younger and younger. One
:12:22. > :12:27.doctor looking after me said I will take you around this hospital and
:12:27. > :12:34.the problems of alcohol are in every single ward. Not just accident and
:12:34. > :12:39.emergency. I watched the foot all, just can't the number of
:12:39. > :12:47.advertisements for gambling and advertising. How have we allowed
:12:47. > :12:56.this to happen, ? We are just awash with it. What we did I think on
:12:56. > :12:59.24-hour licensing was a mistake. Availability and price either too
:12:59. > :13:05.means by which you can bring this down. And the country that has had
:13:05. > :13:17.the biggest success on this is Russia, bizarrely. Thank you very
:13:17. > :13:22.much for that. That's all for today. Thanks to all our guests. I'll be
:13:22. > :13:24.back on BBC Two tomorrow at 11:30am with live coverage of Labour Party
:13:24. > :13:28.Conference, including the speech from the man who wants to be the
:13:28. > :13:29.next Chancellor, Ed Balls. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday
:13:29. > :13:36.Politics.