:00:36. > :00:42.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. The dust has barely
:00:43. > :00:45.settled on George Osborne's Budget and, amazingly, for once it hasn't
:00:46. > :00:48.all gone horribly wrong by the weekend. So, is this the election
:00:49. > :00:52.springboard the Tories needed, and where does it leave Labour? Turns
:00:53. > :00:56.out the big Budget surprise was a revolution in how we pay for old
:00:57. > :01:00.age. The Pensions Minister says he's relaxed if you want to spend it all
:01:01. > :01:06.on a Lamborghini. He'll join us later. And could the man with the
:01:07. > :01:08.maracas be on his way to Westminster? Bez from the Happy
:01:09. > :01:13.And coming up here: Anna Lo tells Mondays tells us about his unlikely
:01:14. > :01:16.And coming up here: Anna Lo tells the Alliance conference she's no
:01:17. > :01:19.regrets about going public with her support for a united Ireland, but
:01:20. > :01:21.one veteran councillor tells us she was shocked. We talk to David Ford.
:01:22. > :01:25.one veteran councillor tells us she stay in Axbridge. Are there ways of
:01:26. > :01:37.making the European arrest warrant work better? -- Uxbridge. And who
:01:38. > :01:40.better to help guide you through all of that than three journalists, who
:01:41. > :01:43.dispense wisdom faster than Grant Shapps calls out the numbers in his
:01:44. > :01:46.local bingo hall over a pint of beer. Yes, they're hard-working and
:01:47. > :01:52.they're doing the things they enjoy. Cup of tea, number three. It's Nick
:01:53. > :01:58.Watt, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh.
:01:59. > :02:03.So, George Osborne delivered his fifth Budget on Wednesday and had so
:02:04. > :02:06.many glowing front pages the day afterwards he must be running out of
:02:07. > :02:10.room to pin them up in on his bedroom wall. Although it's probably
:02:11. > :02:13.a pretty big wall. For those of you who didn't have time to watch 3.5
:02:14. > :02:15.hours of Budget coverage on the BBC, here's Giles with the whole thing in
:02:16. > :02:46.three minutes. Budget days have a rhythm of their
:02:47. > :02:49.own, driven partly by tradition, like that photocall at 11 Downing
:02:50. > :02:52.Street and part logistics, how to get this important statement out and
:02:53. > :03:05.explain to those whom it affects - us? Behind-the-scenes of a Budget
:03:06. > :03:08.Day is much the same. This ritual red boxery may be the beginning of
:03:09. > :03:12.the end of weeks of work behind the scenes in the Treasury and sets the
:03:13. > :03:15.clock ticking on the process of finding out the answer to one
:03:16. > :03:18.question. You got any rabbits in the box, Chancellor? Yes, there will be
:03:19. > :03:20.something in the Budget we don't know about. Time marches steadily
:03:21. > :03:27.towards the statement and already commentators are hovering over what
:03:28. > :03:30.those potential surprises are. As Big Ben chimes, all focus returns to
:03:31. > :03:32.the Commons, where there is Prime Minister's questions and the
:03:33. > :03:39.Chancellor gets up and does his thing. Once he's on his feet and
:03:40. > :03:42.remembering there is still no copy of the details, the major measures
:03:43. > :03:46.are rapidly highlighted as they come and then put up on screen. A cap on
:03:47. > :03:53.Government welfare spending set for 2015/16 at 119 billion. Income tax
:03:54. > :03:59.personal allowance raised to ?10,500. Bingo duty halved, which
:04:00. > :04:04.ticked boxes for some but was unlikely to make anyone a poster
:04:05. > :04:07.boy. And the beer tax cut of 1p, or the froth on the top. And changes to
:04:08. > :04:11.pensions allowing people to take their money out in one lump sum,
:04:12. > :04:20.rather than being forced to accept a fixed annual pay-out, or annuity.
:04:21. > :04:23.This is a Budget for the makers, the doers and the savers and I commend
:04:24. > :04:27.it to the House. Not everyone can focus on the Budget by listening to
:04:28. > :04:31.what the Chancellor says. We need to get a copy of the script. We do not
:04:32. > :04:38.get that till he sits down. I'm going to go into the House of
:04:39. > :04:42.Commons to get that right now. There will be a response on that and all
:04:43. > :04:45.the other things from Mr Miliband. The Chancellor spoke for nearly an
:04:46. > :04:48.hour but he did not mention one essential fact, the working people
:04:49. > :04:53.of Britain are worse off under the Tories. It is a tricky job answering
:04:54. > :04:56.the Budget at the best of times, though some, including Labour MPs,
:04:57. > :04:59.think it is better to mention the Budget when you do.
:05:00. > :05:06.Here we are. I am going to go. I am not the only journalist missing Ed
:05:07. > :05:09.Miliband's speech. Many others leave the Chamber as the Chancellor sits
:05:10. > :05:17.down to attend a special briefing from the Chancellor's advisory team.
:05:18. > :05:20.I am hotfoot to the studio. There is a little more detail to the Budget
:05:21. > :05:23.than the Budget Speech. That detail can be whether words unravel and
:05:24. > :05:26.other interpretations emerge. By now the gaggle of supporters and
:05:27. > :05:35.detractors are taking the debate onto the airwaves. Are you the BBC?
:05:36. > :05:38.Have the Daily Politics packed up? No, we're still standing and, days
:05:39. > :05:41.later, still trying to assess whether the measures announced still
:05:42. > :05:43.seem fresh and appetising or have already gone stale in the minds of
:05:44. > :05:58.voters? How significant are these two poles
:05:59. > :06:08.this morning putting Labour and Tory nip and tuck? Osborne gave his party
:06:09. > :06:13.a good bounce. It was an astonishingly theatrical coup. At
:06:14. > :06:17.first glance, it seems like a huge gift to all people. That is where
:06:18. > :06:21.all of the money has been channelled by this government. They have been
:06:22. > :06:26.ultra-protected, triple locked. Pensioners have done very well and
:06:27. > :06:31.others less well. It is not surprising. Normally a budget which
:06:32. > :06:37.is well received on the day and the day after has unravelled by the
:06:38. > :06:42.weekend. This time, it has not, so far. The dangerous thing for the
:06:43. > :06:46.Labour Party now, George Osborne is the assessment this thing called the
:06:47. > :06:51.baseline. He says, in government, you must control the baseline. The
:06:52. > :06:56.Labour party controlled in 2001 and 2005 and he needs to control it next
:06:57. > :07:00.time. He is controlling it on fiscal policy because labour is matching
:07:01. > :07:05.them on everything. The danger for Labour on the big, headline grabbing
:07:06. > :07:09.issue, which was freeing up annuities on pensions, that again
:07:10. > :07:13.Labour was pretty much saying it was going to support it though it were
:07:14. > :07:18.saying it has to be fair and cost-effective. On a big, policy
:07:19. > :07:23.issue, they are following on behind George Osborne. George Osborne is
:07:24. > :07:32.controlling the crucial baseline. Are we in danger of reading too much
:07:33. > :07:36.into the political implications of the budget? The good thing about the
:07:37. > :07:41.pensions policy is, if it does unravel, it will not happen for ten
:07:42. > :07:45.years and, by that time, George Osborne will have left office.
:07:46. > :07:50.Towards the end of his speech, I thought, that is not enough. There
:07:51. > :07:55.is not an idea in your budget which is politically very vivid a year
:07:56. > :07:58.before an election. What I underestimated was, how many
:07:59. > :08:04.frustrated savers that are in the country. There are a lot of people
:08:05. > :08:09.who are frustrated by low interest rates and tax rates on pension pots.
:08:10. > :08:15.This was an explicit gesture for them. That is what has paid off in
:08:16. > :08:20.the polls in the past few days. You spend all of your money on your
:08:21. > :08:25.wardrobe, is that right? The bingo poster was a kind of get out of jail
:08:26. > :08:29.card for Labour. It gave them something to zoom in on. Everyone
:08:30. > :08:35.beat up on Grant Shapps, the Tory chairman. We read in the daily
:08:36. > :08:41.Telegraph that the fingerprints of the Chancellor were all over this
:08:42. > :08:49.poster. The Chancellor signed off it -- off on it and so did Lynton
:08:50. > :08:56.Crosby. They referred to working class people as, they are. How did
:08:57. > :09:01.it get into the Telegraph? We can only presume but grant Shapps made
:09:02. > :09:05.it clear that it was not him. We had a time when Labour politicians, we
:09:06. > :09:09.saw from the response of Ed Miliband onwards, they were not quite sure
:09:10. > :09:14.how to react to this budget. A lot of detail had to be absorbed.
:09:15. > :09:25.Suddenly, here is something we can talk about. You can see the thinking
:09:26. > :09:28.behind the poster was very sensible. We are not Tory toffs, we are
:09:29. > :09:30.interested in helping people who do not come from our backgrounds. The
:09:31. > :09:37.wording was awful and played into every cliche. It was all his fault.
:09:38. > :09:46.It shows how unsophisticated he was. There were people from Tory HQ
:09:47. > :09:57.who agreed the budget. A month down the line will the budget look as
:09:58. > :10:00.good? Probably. Once people look at it, pensions are fiendishly
:10:01. > :10:04.conjugated. Once they look and see what it will do with people having
:10:05. > :10:08.to pay for their own care because they can now take capital at their
:10:09. > :10:13.pension, that will come as a shock to a lot of people with small
:10:14. > :10:21.savings. It all be gone on their care. The polling will be neck and
:10:22. > :10:24.neck all the way. In the past, George Osborne has been accused of
:10:25. > :10:27.using his Budgets to tinker at the margins or pull cheap tricks on his
:10:28. > :10:30.political opponents. Perish the thought. But the big surprise in
:10:31. > :10:32.this year's statement was a genuinely radical shake-up of the
:10:33. > :10:43.pensions system that will affect most people who've yet to retire. At
:10:44. > :10:47.the moment, everyone is saving money into a defined contribution pension,
:10:48. > :10:53.that is the type most common in the private sector. They can take 25% of
:10:54. > :10:58.the pot is a tax-free lump sum when they retire. The rest of the money,
:10:59. > :11:01.for most people, they are forced to buy an annuity, a form of insurance
:11:02. > :11:05.which provide a guaranteed monthly income until they die. Annuities
:11:06. > :11:14.have hardly been a bargain since interest rates were flat slashed
:11:15. > :11:19.following the financial crash. Even with a ?100,000 pension pot would
:11:20. > :11:23.only get an income of ?5,800 a year at current rates. From 2018,
:11:24. > :11:27.pensioners will not be forced to buy an annuity. They can do what they
:11:28. > :11:32.like with their money, even taking the entire pot as a lump some but
:11:33. > :11:44.paying tax on 75% of it. With an average pension pot closer
:11:45. > :11:52.to around ?30,000, pensioners would be more likely to buy a Skoda
:11:53. > :11:57.instead of a Lamborghini. Most newly retired people who take the cash are
:11:58. > :12:01.more likely to spend the money paying off their mortgage, helping a
:12:02. > :12:03.family member to buy a property or investing the money elsewhere. Well,
:12:04. > :12:07.earlier I spoke to the Pensions Minister. He's a Lib Dem called
:12:08. > :12:10.Steve Webb. I began by asking him if he still thought the reforms might
:12:11. > :12:17.lead to pensioners splurging all their savings on supercars. What
:12:18. > :12:22.this reform is about is treating people as adults. For far too long,
:12:23. > :12:25.we have said, we will make sure you save for your old age and then we
:12:26. > :12:31.will control each year how much is spent on what you spend it on. What
:12:32. > :12:34.we are saying is because we have formed -- reformed the state
:12:35. > :12:38.pension, we will be much more relaxed about what people do with
:12:39. > :12:41.their own money. The evidence is that people who have been frugal and
:12:42. > :12:46.saved hard for retirement do not generally blows a lot. They will
:12:47. > :12:51.spin it out. It is treating people as adults and giving them choices
:12:52. > :12:59.they should have had all along. It is a red herring, isn't it? The
:13:00. > :13:05.average pension pot is between 25000 and 30,000. Lamborghinis aren't an
:13:06. > :13:10.option, correct? I gather only about 5000 people a year retiring can buy
:13:11. > :13:13.a flashy Italian sports car. It might be about paying off a
:13:14. > :13:17.mortgage, paying off outstanding debts. Maybe spending more money
:13:18. > :13:21.earlier in retirement when they are fit and able and can enjoy it more.
:13:22. > :13:26.We will give people guidance. We will make sure when they retire,
:13:27. > :13:29.there is someone to have a conversation with talking through
:13:30. > :13:33.the implications of spending the money early and options of investing
:13:34. > :13:40.it. This will be a real step forward. Even if you have a much
:13:41. > :13:44.bigger pension pot, say half ?1 million, which is way bigger than
:13:45. > :13:49.the average, even then the marginal rates of tax will be a disincentive
:13:50. > :13:57.to take it all out at once. You will lose huge chunks of it at the 40%
:13:58. > :14:01.band and then the 45% band. The tax system gives you the incentive to
:14:02. > :14:05.spread it out if the tax threshold is a bit over 10000 and the state
:14:06. > :14:11.pension is a bit over 7000, the first 3000 you draw out in a given
:14:12. > :14:19.year is tax-free. The next band is at 20%. Spreading your money will
:14:20. > :14:22.mean you pay less tax. That is why, in general, people will not blow the
:14:23. > :14:27.lot up front. They will spread it out over their retirement. You have
:14:28. > :14:33.kept this policy quiet. Not even a hint. How did you test it? How did
:14:34. > :14:39.you make sure it would be robust? You did not do a consultation. I
:14:40. > :14:43.have been talking about freeing up the annuity market for a decade. The
:14:44. > :14:47.idea of giving people more choice. The government has relaxed rules
:14:48. > :14:51.over this Parliament. It was not a completely new idea. We know in
:14:52. > :15:00.places like Australia and America, people have these freedoms. We
:15:01. > :15:02.already have something to judge it by. We will spend the next year
:15:03. > :15:04.talking to people, working it through. There will be a three-month
:15:05. > :15:08.consultation. I want people to have choices about their own money. There
:15:09. > :15:14.is detail still to be worked out and we are in listening mode about how
:15:15. > :15:16.we implement it. When you announce something you cannot do widespread
:15:17. > :15:21.consultation, for the reasons I have given, you do run the risk of
:15:22. > :15:24.unforeseen consequences? Pension companies this morning are
:15:25. > :15:28.indicating, you, the government can write you are looking for ?25
:15:29. > :15:34.billion of infrastructure investment from us. You hold our shell below
:15:35. > :15:51.the water line. That may not happen. We spoke internally about the
:15:52. > :16:01.implications for instruction -- infrastructure. It seems to me there
:16:02. > :16:08.will still be long-term investments. Many people want to turn their whole
:16:09. > :16:11.pot into an income. I understand the insurance companies are lobbying,
:16:12. > :16:17.but I'm convinced there will still be plenty of money for investment
:16:18. > :16:22.and infrastructure. If the Chancellor's pro-savings measures
:16:23. > :16:28.work, that will generate more savings. With no requirement now to
:16:29. > :16:35.buy an annuity, surely it is the case that pension pots are another
:16:36. > :16:41.ordinary savings fund, so why should they continue to get favourable tax
:16:42. > :16:46.treatment? Bear in mind that a lot of the tax treatment of pensioners
:16:47. > :16:51.is tax deferred so most people pay tax at the standard rate. If they
:16:52. > :16:59.put money into a pension, they don't pay tax when they earn it, but they
:17:00. > :17:04.do at retirement. We do want, we will still have automatic enrolment
:17:05. > :17:09.into workplace pensions, we do want people to build up, because at age
:17:10. > :17:16.20 and 30 nobody thinks about retirement. It is still vital that
:17:17. > :17:22.people do reach retirement to have these new choices with a decent
:17:23. > :17:27.sized pension pot. Pensions. Tax breaks because they were supposed to
:17:28. > :17:31.provide an income in retirement, that is how it was structured, but
:17:32. > :17:38.that is no longer a requirement, surely that undermines the case that
:17:39. > :17:44.if they get tax breaks, other forms of savings should get tax breaks.
:17:45. > :17:58.Other forms do get tax breaks, of course. The return with ISAs is tax
:17:59. > :18:07.free. The point with pensions is that you are simply deferring your
:18:08. > :18:10.earnings. There is a bit when high tax rate payers get a kick when they
:18:11. > :18:16.are working and then retire on standard rate, so there is the issue
:18:17. > :18:20.of the top getting too many tax breaks, but the basic principle that
:18:21. > :18:27.you pay tax when you get the income seems right to me and isn't affected
:18:28. > :18:31.by these changes. You have announced save friendly measures, are we right
:18:32. > :18:37.to look at them as a consolation prize because savers have suffered
:18:38. > :18:42.from the Government's policy of keeping interest rates abnormally
:18:43. > :18:48.low? It is certainly the case that very low interest rates have been a
:18:49. > :18:51.huge boon to people of working age with mortgages, and people who have
:18:52. > :18:57.retired said they thought they could have got a better deal on their
:18:58. > :19:02.savings. I think there is a recognition that whilst we have done
:19:03. > :19:08.the right thing with pensioners on the state pension, we have brought
:19:09. > :19:18.in the triple lock, and many will bent on -- benefit from these
:19:19. > :19:23.changes. Why don't savers who are not pensioners get the same help?
:19:24. > :19:29.They have been hit by low interest rates as well. Those of working
:19:30. > :19:34.age, many of them say they have benefited from low interest rates
:19:35. > :19:42.was predominantly people in retirement have not had the benefit.
:19:43. > :19:50.Obviously people of working age will have benefited from the tax
:19:51. > :19:56.allowance so it is a myth to say the Budget was all about pensioners. And
:19:57. > :19:59.yet even when the Office for Budget Responsibility takes into account
:20:00. > :20:05.your new measures, it still shows that over the next five years
:20:06. > :20:12.households will save less and less, indeed the savings ratio falls by
:20:13. > :20:16.50%. You haven't done enough. One of the things we know is that the
:20:17. > :20:21.economy is picking up strongly, and as we have more confidence about the
:20:22. > :20:25.future they will be more willing to consume now, so without these
:20:26. > :20:30.measures it may be that the saving rate would have fallen further. We
:20:31. > :20:36.want people to save and spend, it is about getting the right balance. As
:20:37. > :20:41.the economy picks up, people will want to spend more of their money
:20:42. > :20:46.and it is about getting the balance right. You make the point that if
:20:47. > :20:50.people are little profligate with their private pensions, they will
:20:51. > :20:55.have the state pension to fall back on and it will be higher than it has
:20:56. > :21:00.been, but it is also the case that in these circumstances they will
:21:01. > :21:05.still be entitled to housing benefit and even to perhaps some council tax
:21:06. > :21:12.benefit as well. Do you know by how much this could put the welfare bill
:21:13. > :21:17.up? We think the impact will be relatively modest because the sort
:21:18. > :21:21.of people who save for a pension and make sacrifices while they are at
:21:22. > :21:28.work are not the sort of people who get to 65 and decide to blow the lot
:21:29. > :21:31.for the great privilege of receiving council tax benefit or housing
:21:32. > :21:43.benefit. There will be people on the margins and
:21:44. > :21:43.benefit. There will be people on the who retire with some capital want to
:21:44. > :21:50.put some money away for their funeral. People like to save even
:21:51. > :21:56.into retirement so the myth of the spendthrift pensioner I don't
:21:57. > :22:02.believe. I think this has been rightly welcomed. Ever fancied a
:22:03. > :22:17.Lamborghini yourself? If you turned the camera around you would see my
:22:18. > :22:20.2-door Corsa! What's your favourite thing about an
:22:21. > :22:23.election? Could it be the candidates ringing on your door while you're
:22:24. > :22:26.having dinner? The leaflets piling up on your doormat? Or the endless
:22:27. > :22:29.adverts aimed at hardworking families? Well, if you thought that
:22:30. > :22:32.was bad enough, then you might want to consider going overseas for the
:22:33. > :22:35.2015 election because the parties are going to be aiming their message
:22:36. > :22:41.at you like never before. Adam's been to Worcester to find out more.
:22:42. > :22:46.One of the most famous political figures in history lived here, she
:22:47. > :22:51.is called Worcester woman. She was in her 30s, working class with a
:22:52. > :22:55.couple of kids, aspirational yet worried about quality of life. But
:22:56. > :23:00.she wasn't a real person, she was a label for the kind of voter new
:23:01. > :23:07.Labour were trying to reach and she was later joined by Mondeo man and
:23:08. > :23:11.several others. Doesn't that all seem a bit 90s? The technique,
:23:12. > :23:18.called segmentation, was used by George Bush in 2004. Then refined by
:23:19. > :23:24.Barack Obama. Rather than focusing on crude measures like cars and
:23:25. > :23:27.hometowns, they delved into the minds of voters. It is not just
:23:28. > :23:33.women, not just people who live in cities, but if you start to put
:23:34. > :23:39.together these groups of people you can even in an anecdote or way
:23:40. > :23:47.imagine who they are, what types of language and imagery might relate to
:23:48. > :23:52.them. We have been given access to a new polling model being used here by
:23:53. > :23:58.this firm, which is pretty close to the one we are told is being used by
:23:59. > :24:03.the Tories. It carves the country into six personality types, and we
:24:04. > :24:09.are trying it out on Worcester woman and wast of man. We are using an
:24:10. > :24:17.online quiz to work out who is in which segment. Meet new monk,
:24:18. > :24:24.Susie. She feels well represented. I know the Budget and the increases to
:24:25. > :24:29.childcare, I think at the moment I am fairly represented. This puts her
:24:30. > :24:34.in the category of optimistic contentment, people who feel they
:24:35. > :24:42.are doing OK. Terry, on the other hand, isn't happy about Britain
:24:43. > :24:51.today. Health and safety and all that! I hardly recognise the country
:24:52. > :24:58.a living in any more? Yes. Are you ready for the result? He is Mr
:24:59. > :25:02.comfortable nostalgia, they tend to favour the Tories and UKIP. They
:25:03. > :25:08.dislike the cultural changes they see as altering Britain for the
:25:09. > :25:16.worst. That sums me up. Tony is worried as well but feels much less
:25:17. > :25:24.secure. I look forward to the future with optimism or anxiety? Anxiety.
:25:25. > :25:34.Optimist or pessimist? Pessimist. His category is... You feel a bit
:25:35. > :25:41.insecure, you think the Government could probably help you more? Yes.
:25:42. > :25:47.Labour picks up a lot of these voters. This man is being asked to
:25:48. > :25:55.do more and more at work, but he is getting less and less. I am getting
:25:56. > :26:00.more towards the despair side. Things are getting tougher,
:26:01. > :26:06.generally? It puts him into the segment called long-term despair,
:26:07. > :26:16.people who feel left out. Finally, this is ever thoughtful Carol. I am
:26:17. > :26:23.a bit of an idealist. Her idealism makes her a cosmopolitan critic. I
:26:24. > :26:27.am a liberal person. Apparently a lot of the media fit into this
:26:28. > :26:32.category as well. There is one group of voters we have not come across,
:26:33. > :26:37.people who show calm persistence. They hope things will get better but
:26:38. > :26:42.don't expect them to. They are coping, rather than comfortable.
:26:43. > :26:47.Presumably they are all out of work. Which group are you win? You can
:26:48. > :26:51.take the poll on the BBC website, and in the coming weeks we will be
:26:52. > :26:59.doing our own polling using the six segments to see of the politicians
:27:00. > :27:03.really have worked out how we think. And as Adam said, if you want to try
:27:04. > :27:05.the survey for yourself, you can go to the BBC website and click on the
:27:06. > :27:14.link. And we're joined now by the
:27:15. > :27:21.pollster, Rick Nye. Welcome to Sunday Politics. We have had
:27:22. > :27:28.Worcester woman, Worcester man, is this any different? It is a
:27:29. > :27:41.recognition that or politician -- all politics these days is like
:27:42. > :27:49.this. It enables them to cut them more finally. You think all politics
:27:50. > :27:54.is coalition politics, you think they have to put together these
:27:55. > :28:00.groups of people, not that the Lib Dems will always be in power? No,
:28:01. > :28:06.and if you listen to the coverage these days you might think it is
:28:07. > :28:11.about grumpy old men on the one hand with Guardian readers on the other.
:28:12. > :28:14.It is far more complicated than that, there is a lot of churning
:28:15. > :28:22.going on underneath which is driven by people's value systems. A lot of
:28:23. > :28:27.this has been pioneered in the United States, very sophisticated on
:28:28. > :28:31.their election techniques, and in Britain we are always the first to
:28:32. > :28:37.grab whatever the New Year will is from America. How do you think this
:28:38. > :28:40.will translate to this country? I think it means that if you are
:28:41. > :28:46.target photo you will still get the same of leaflets and people calling,
:28:47. > :28:51.but you will probably have different kinds of conversations because
:28:52. > :28:58.people on the other side, the party campaigners, will think they know
:28:59. > :29:02.more about you. Will I know who you are? If I am a party campaigner,
:29:03. > :29:07.will I know, looking down the street, who fits into which
:29:08. > :29:10.category? You will be able to approximate that with all of the
:29:11. > :29:16.other data that you have gathered through polling, or doing local
:29:17. > :29:22.campaigning, that is the idea to make sense of this vast quantity of
:29:23. > :29:27.data people have about voters. We asked our panel to fill in your
:29:28. > :29:33.survey. Nick is optimistic contentment, 99%. He was 1%
:29:34. > :29:38.cosmopolitan critic, which is how he keeps his job at the Guardian.
:29:39. > :29:45.Polly's job could not be more secure, 100% cosmopolitan critics,
:29:46. > :29:48.and Janan Ganesh, optimistic contentment, which is what you would
:29:49. > :30:05.expect from a financial Times columnist. What do you make of this
:30:06. > :30:14.technique? Why are you only 99? It sounds really clever. 95% of the
:30:15. > :30:19.population five years ago voted Labour or the Conservatives. We have
:30:20. > :30:25.got away from that. It is coalition politics. You need sophisticated
:30:26. > :30:32.methods. Presumably you must not lose touch with basic points. You
:30:33. > :30:37.said it was used in the US presidential elections. Wasn't there
:30:38. > :30:42.them moment emit Romney 's sweet when the initial response was, we
:30:43. > :30:49.did not know the sort of people voted. His next response was, we did
:30:50. > :30:53.not know these people existed. Unless you know about certain key
:30:54. > :30:59.demographics, you are wasting your time. Is it important in modern
:31:00. > :31:10.campaigning? I think it is useful because it is about attitude. We
:31:11. > :31:15.have got Mosaic. We have got Acorn. It does not tell us very much. What
:31:16. > :31:19.people think and feel may be different to their income. You can
:31:20. > :31:23.be quite a high earner and anxious. You can be quite a low earner and
:31:24. > :31:30.feeling aspirational and optimistic about the future. I think this does
:31:31. > :31:35.get something else. In days gone by, particularly in America,
:31:36. > :31:39.overwhelmingly, if you are in the better of segment, you would be
:31:40. > :31:43.Republican and the blue-collar workers and some academics and
:31:44. > :31:48.Liberals voted Democrat. In the last election, the richest 200 counties
:31:49. > :31:49.in America voted Democrat. That is an attitude thing.
:31:50. > :31:53.in America voted Democrat. That is an attitude thing. Income does not
:31:54. > :31:58.tell you how people will vote. There is a huge, working-class base of
:31:59. > :32:03.support for the Republicans. It is unavoidable. Add a time when people
:32:04. > :32:11.no longer identify with ideologies or class blocks, you have to go the
:32:12. > :32:21.temperament and lifestyle and manageable. In America there were
:32:22. > :32:26.128 segments according to lifestyle and Outlook. Once you get to that
:32:27. > :32:31.stage, it becomes close to useless. We were talking about the budget
:32:32. > :32:40.earlier. What other polls saying about the budget? The lead of labour
:32:41. > :32:47.has been narrowed over the Conservatives. -- Labour. Osborne
:32:48. > :32:53.and Cameron as an academic team have always had a lead over Miller band
:32:54. > :32:55.and Balls. This week it is about economic management. -- over Mr
:32:56. > :33:11.Miller band. Thank you for being with us today.
:33:12. > :33:15.It's just gone 11:30am. You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say
:33:16. > :33:18.goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now for Sunday Politics
:33:19. > :33:30.Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes:
:33:31. > :33:35.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. The Alliance
:33:36. > :33:38.Party conference was held yesterday amidst the storm which followed Anna
:33:39. > :33:41.Lo expressing her support for a united Ireland. She was unrepentant
:33:42. > :33:44.about those remarks, but one veteran councillor told us she was less than
:33:45. > :33:49.impressed. I was surprised at what she said, but I do realise that it
:33:50. > :33:55.was her own personal opinion and it is certainly not mine. I felt quite
:33:56. > :33:58.shocked to be honest. The Alliance leader, David Ford, joins me in
:33:59. > :34:01.studio to discuss the fall-out from his European candidate's comments.
:34:02. > :34:05.The new super councils took a step closer at Stormont this week, but
:34:06. > :34:09.just what will our new super councillors be doing to earn their
:34:10. > :34:12.50% pay rise? And with their views on those stories and the rest of the
:34:13. > :34:19.week's political highlights, I'm joined by Gladys Ganiel and Brian
:34:20. > :34:23.Feeney. "My motivation isn't a united Ireland, but a united
:34:24. > :34:26.Northern Ireland" - the words of Alliance's European candidate, Anna
:34:27. > :34:32.Lo, at her party's annual conference yesterday. It was an attempt to set
:34:33. > :34:35.the record straight after she'd caused a storm by expressing her
:34:36. > :34:38.support for Irish unity in a newspaper interview last week. But
:34:39. > :34:41.one long-serving Alliance councillor has told this programme she was
:34:42. > :34:45.shocked by Anna Lo's comments. Our Political Correspondent, Gareth
:34:46. > :34:53.Gordon, was at the conference. She is as you know a one woman publicity
:34:54. > :34:58.machine! Welcome to the Alliance Party conference, otherwise known as
:34:59. > :35:02.the Anna Lo show. I'm not convinced there are any other candidates.
:35:03. > :35:06.Since her comments supporting a united Ireland appeared, the party
:35:07. > :35:11.refuse all requests for interviews with the European candidate. But
:35:12. > :35:15.there was no ducking the issue here. The official party line is their
:35:16. > :35:21.relaxed about Anna Lo's united Ireland comments. But others in the
:35:22. > :35:25.party are anything but. Geraldine Rice has been an Alliance councillor
:35:26. > :35:30.for 25 years. I was surprised at what she said, but I realised it was
:35:31. > :35:35.her own personal opinion and it is not mine. But she is your European
:35:36. > :35:39.candidate. She is. And she has been elected by the majority of the
:35:40. > :35:44.people who were at her selection campaign. So I cannot say anything
:35:45. > :35:48.about that. That was her... It was good at the time that she was
:35:49. > :35:54.running. But to say about the united Ireland, I felt shocked about it. Of
:35:55. > :35:59.the others we spoke to, some found oom's remarks -- Anna Lo's remarks
:36:00. > :36:03.harder to swallow. She wasn't saying anything against what we have agreed
:36:04. > :36:09.to in the Good Friday agreement that we will reflect and acknowledge what
:36:10. > :36:18.we think. She wasn't wise to say that. I think she was naive. I don't
:36:19. > :36:23.shi she saw -- she saw the full implications of it. Do you think she
:36:24. > :36:29.will lose the party votes? I think she probably will. There's certainly
:36:30. > :36:36.some. But what of Alliance's only MP who, many believe could suffer
:36:37. > :36:41.because of the unionist nature of her constituency. Int didn't come as
:36:42. > :36:45.a surprise, what was a surprise with us that anyone thought it was
:36:46. > :36:52.surprising. Would it be better if she didn't say it? I think if
:36:53. > :36:57.politicians can't be candid. I think the public are tired of spin and
:36:58. > :37:01.people being told what to say. Anna is Anna, people love her for it and
:37:02. > :37:05.like the fact she is direct. I like the fact she is direct and it
:37:06. > :37:11.doesn't change what Alliance stands for. The leader dealt with it like
:37:12. > :37:14.this. Some in society are motivated by the hope of a united Ireland.
:37:15. > :37:23.Some are motivated by the continuation of the United Kingdom.
:37:24. > :37:28.What unites us all in Alliances is a commment to building a united
:37:29. > :37:34.community. This is the most important speech Anna Lo made she
:37:35. > :37:40.chose her words carefully. When I got involved in politics, I did not
:37:41. > :37:45.join Sinn Fein or the SDLP, parties that define themselves as
:37:46. > :37:52.nationalist, or for whom the border question is their motivation. No, I
:37:53. > :38:01.joined the Alliance Party, because my motivation isn't a united
:38:02. > :38:10.Ireland. But a united Northern Ireland. At the end, the ovation was
:38:11. > :38:15.loud and long and seemed tinged with relief. Thank you Anna, I think that
:38:16. > :38:20.has put the record straight. Alliance will hope that is the end
:38:21. > :38:27.of the matter, while unionist opponents will try to ensure that it
:38:28. > :38:31.is not. And joining me now is the Alliance leader, David Ford. Do you
:38:32. > :38:35.think your opponents will let the matter lie there? I have no doubt
:38:36. > :38:39.unionists will try to make a big issue of it. But what are they
:38:40. > :38:45.trying to say? We are a party that says we are for everyone and brings
:38:46. > :38:49.together from a diverse range of backgrounds and unionism makes a big
:38:50. > :38:52.issue of it, because one candidate having expressed her view that the
:38:53. > :38:58.principle of consent is important, then goes on to talk tab potential
:38:59. > :39:04.for a long time and even said it was probably beyond her lifetime. It is
:39:05. > :39:08.confusing, Anna Lo said she joined Alliance, because it stood for a
:39:09. > :39:12.united Northern Ireland. So why did she say in the Irish News she
:39:13. > :39:18.supports a united Ireland. They're not the same thing. Because she
:39:19. > :39:23.talked about it in the context of a very long-term referendum. So why is
:39:24. > :39:27.it wrapped up as if it is a big issue. If another member of the
:39:28. > :39:30.party said in the long-term my aspiration is Northern Ireland
:39:31. > :39:36.remains within the United Kingdom would unionisms have made a fuss?
:39:37. > :39:42.No, they would agree with that. The understanding of your position is
:39:43. > :39:48.row you're a unionist party with a small U. Our default position our
:39:49. > :39:52.commitment is to building a united community recognising the three sets
:39:53. > :39:56.of relationships that we were talking about before others were. It
:39:57. > :40:02.is not just unionists who were concerned, you saw Geraldine Rice
:40:03. > :40:06.expressing reservations, saying I was surprised by what Anna Lo said
:40:07. > :40:10.and I was shocked by it. You talked to one local councillor, yes, but
:40:11. > :40:14.that is the nature of Alliance. We have a diverse range of views, a
:40:15. > :40:19.diverse range of backgrounds, because the defining issue of what
:40:20. > :40:26.unites us is the commitment to building a united community. That is
:40:27. > :40:31.our key int point. -- that is our key point. What about the other
:40:32. > :40:35.cashing per who say -- character who said Anna Lo was naive and perhaps
:40:36. > :40:40.didn't see the full implications of her comments. And it may lose some
:40:41. > :40:44.votes for the party. That was an ordinary party member, an elderly
:40:45. > :40:51.party member. And his views don't count? Clearly his views count. But
:40:52. > :40:55.I have seen in polling evidence that Alliance has a strong support among
:40:56. > :41:00.younger people and poms show that younger people are much less likely
:41:01. > :41:03.to be concerned about the 1921 argument about the border. So yes
:41:04. > :41:07.there are some members who take a different view. Because that is the
:41:08. > :41:11.nature of the party we are. Here is the problem, if the party faithful
:41:12. > :41:16.are prepared to say what they said in front of a camera, you must be
:41:17. > :41:21.concerned that some voters in the privacy of the ballot box will put
:41:22. > :41:26.their marks elsewhere. You could lose votes over this and that is w
:41:27. > :41:31.it matters. If I can go back to the first time I was elected and one of
:41:32. > :41:36.my neighbours told me he had voted for me, because it wasn't a
:41:37. > :41:42.constituencialish -- constitutional issue. But it was the nature of the
:41:43. > :41:47.programme. So why did Anna Lo mention it. She didn't, the Irish
:41:48. > :41:51.News asked her and she is an honest politician who tells the truth. What
:41:52. > :41:56.a scary thought, politicians give the answers when they're asked the
:41:57. > :42:02.questions. If you listen, in detail to the interview that she did, with
:42:03. > :42:06.the reporter from the Irish News. She volcano unner toad --
:42:07. > :42:09.volunteered the informationches she wasn't painted into a corner. This
:42:10. > :42:14.was offered openly during the course of the interview. But the interview
:42:15. > :42:18.concentrated, or her response concentrated on the key points about
:42:19. > :42:22.the three relationships and the principle of consent and she
:42:23. > :42:25.talkeded about -- talk about a long-term view. Whether that pleases
:42:26. > :42:29.everyone in the party is not the issue. She was giving an honest
:42:30. > :42:33.answer, having given the view which everyone in the party holds about
:42:34. > :42:37.the principle of consent and the nature of the various relationships
:42:38. > :42:42.which were cemented under the Good Friday agreement. She described
:42:43. > :42:49.Northern Ireland as artificial, but she wants a united Northern Ireland.
:42:50. > :42:55.That is a contradiction. No, every border in Europe is artificial. I
:42:56. > :43:00.don't think there is one country that has stayed the same. It does
:43:01. > :43:06.not alter the need to unite the community. In the politic world you
:43:07. > :43:10.don't necessarily have to say things that might land you in trouble. So
:43:11. > :43:16.you're relaxed she said it and if you could wind the clock back, you
:43:17. > :43:21.couldn't say, don't say it? The reality is we would have been
:43:22. > :43:26.talking about party conference and not this one issue if Anna hadn't
:43:27. > :43:34.said that. Maybe it would have given me more chance to give our views
:43:35. > :43:40.during this, you're choosing to make a issue of it. People are not saying
:43:41. > :43:44.that in general terms. I am not sure people will think that. Others have
:43:45. > :43:48.reacted to it. Members of your party have criticised it. Members of our
:43:49. > :43:53.party have been asked and given a view. Which is critical. And we have
:43:54. > :43:56.said all along this is not the defining issue for Alliance. You
:43:57. > :44:00.don't want it to be the defining issue, but others see it
:44:01. > :44:09.differently. Yes, people who think politics is solely confined to the
:44:10. > :44:14.orange/green spectrum. But that is nottous. That is not what we are
:44:15. > :44:19.about. That is not what people think about. You said in your speech
:44:20. > :44:25.yesterday, Alliance is not a split the difference party whose vision is
:44:26. > :44:29.limited to what might keep unionists and nationalists happy. The reality
:44:30. > :44:34.is you are, that is what the Alliance Party is. Stuck in the
:44:35. > :44:39.middle between two blocs. No, we are setting out a vision of a shared and
:44:40. > :44:43.united community which is different from what both unionists and
:44:44. > :44:48.nationalist are saying. You can't drive that forward. You made that
:44:49. > :44:57.point in your speech. Remind me who the the MP for east Belfast is.
:44:58. > :45:03.Naomi Long. The person who couldn't get the seat. You say we are going
:45:04. > :45:10.nowhere. We are going somewhere. You think Anna Lo's comments will help
:45:11. > :45:14.Naomi Long hold on the that position. When you talked about the
:45:15. > :45:18.flags protest, it was said it would be the end of the Alliance party.
:45:19. > :45:22.People need to be realistic before they take one issue and suggest that
:45:23. > :45:29.is the end of things. You said yesterday in your speech, you talked
:45:30. > :45:32.about issues like welfare, Maze, Long Kesh, education, all things you
:45:33. > :45:37.want to see progress on, but there is no progress, because the other
:45:38. > :45:42.power blocs don't want to progress the issue. That is a key point. I
:45:43. > :45:49.talked about things where we have seen progress like the united youth
:45:50. > :45:52.project and there are six fewer interfaith structures, because work
:45:53. > :45:57.is being done in justice and we cannot make other people in the
:45:58. > :46:00.Executive do the work that needs to be done, but we can demonstrate
:46:01. > :46:05.where we have the responsibility that we are making a difference. You
:46:06. > :46:12.acce those are in the margins. So sorry -- sorry? Compared to the big
:46:13. > :46:17.issues you mentioned in your speech. Six sb interfaith structures
:46:18. > :46:25.removed. United of o' how many? Out of 50. How were removed in the
:46:26. > :46:31.preceding 20 years? None. It only started to happen since we have been
:46:32. > :46:35.there. We are only seeing progress with the united youth project. Where
:46:36. > :46:39.are the shared campuses. The only place where there is movement is
:46:40. > :46:47.where Steven and I have been driving it. We need to leave it there. Thank
:46:48. > :46:50.you for joining us. Joining us now with their thoughts are commentator
:46:51. > :46:57.Brian Feeney and academic Gladys Ganiel. Brian Feeney does David Ford
:46:58. > :47:01.make a stout defence of Anna Lo's position. He has to make a stout
:47:02. > :47:05.defence of her, because she is the European candidate. But I think the
:47:06. > :47:10.reaction to what she said has been one of sided. It is the unionists
:47:11. > :47:13.who have gone crazy about it. The dog that didn't bark is the
:47:14. > :47:21.interesting thing. Her comments, which she volunteered to the Irish
:47:22. > :47:26.News are shrewd. The Alliance Party will lose votes in Belfast, but we
:47:27. > :47:33.are only talking about a total Alliance vote of about 26,000. Now,
:47:34. > :47:38.what they're going to do result of Anna Lo's comments is make inroads
:47:39. > :47:43.into the SDLP vote. She is going to be much friendlier to nationalists
:47:44. > :47:51.and they need nationalist votes. It is, the Alliance Party is a doughnut
:47:52. > :47:57.around Belfast. They got 300 votes in Foyle over 400 in mid Ulster, so
:47:58. > :48:03.they need nationalist votes and they're more likely to get it
:48:04. > :48:08.because of her remarks. Do you think it could be an advantage? Yes they
:48:09. > :48:14.will lose unionist votes, because of the last 18 months and they will
:48:15. > :48:18.lose votes in Belfast. But it isn't just because of her united Ireland
:48:19. > :48:24.comments, but she comes across as a modern woman and a lot of people who
:48:25. > :48:31.would vote for the SDLP will vote for Anna Lo, because they don't like
:48:32. > :48:38.the holy Joes in the SDLP. Are you saying that she did it deliberately?
:48:39. > :48:45.Yes. She needs support from nationalists. A how do you view it?
:48:46. > :48:52.I would take a different view. The trade off isn't worth it to go for
:48:53. > :48:56.soft nationalist votes. However I think the speeches yesterday from
:48:57. > :49:01.the platform at the conference did a decent job of trying to limit the
:49:02. > :49:07.damage of the situation and capitalise on an opportunity to set
:49:08. > :49:10.Alliance as a party that contain nationalist and unionist
:49:11. > :49:15.perspectives and still work together and could be a hopeful vision. David
:49:16. > :49:21.Ford, I can't close without asking you, was it it a calculated comment
:49:22. > :49:25.to seek nationalist transfers. Not to the best of my knowledge. But
:49:26. > :49:34.Gladys made an interesting point, one of the people you showed Duncan
:49:35. > :49:38.Morrow, the spern who spoke before Paula Bradshaw, who came from a
:49:39. > :49:49.unionist party background, because she sees the perspective of building
:49:50. > :49:55.a united community. Thank you. Now, with a review of the political week
:49:56. > :49:59.in 60 seconds, here's Gareth Gordon. The Alliance candidate in the
:50:00. > :50:04.European election caused controversy when she said she would like see a
:50:05. > :50:09.united Ireland. But her party leader supported his MLS. People describe
:50:10. > :50:15.it as a nationalist, but she sits in the Assembly with the designation
:50:16. > :50:19.united community. That is her primary focus. As it is for the rest
:50:20. > :50:25.of the group. Local government reform dominated at Stormont. But
:50:26. > :50:30.old rivalries surfaced. I understand Dr Paisley did have some Irish blood
:50:31. > :50:42.in his vains. I haven't one drop of it in my mine. But MLSs still --
:50:43. > :50:49.MLAs still voted for a 50% pay rise for councillors. One Sinn Fein MLA
:50:50. > :51:04.was caught napping in the Assembly. Sorry. Top Tall. What number? Where
:51:05. > :51:08.is it? Sorry. I was asleep. Sinn Fein's Sean Lynch caught on the hop
:51:09. > :51:10.- Gareth Gordon reporting. Staying at Stormont, after marathon sessions
:51:11. > :51:14.there this week, the Local Government Act cleared a major
:51:15. > :51:17.hurdle and is now entering the final stretch before becoming law.
:51:18. > :51:20.Councillors came under a degree of criticism from some quarters when it
:51:21. > :51:23.emerged they were in line for a 50% pay rise after the election.
:51:24. > :51:25.Councillors have countered that by citing their increased
:51:26. > :51:28.responsibility and workload. But what will being on the new super
:51:29. > :51:30.councils mean? The Vice President of the Northern Ireland Local
:51:31. > :51:37.Government Association, Councillor Sean McPeake, joins me now. You did
:51:38. > :51:42.take a bit of flak over this pay rise. Do you think it is fair in the
:51:43. > :51:46.current circumstances? I don't think it is fair. When you look at the new
:51:47. > :51:51.increased responsibilities the councillors will have, Sigg
:51:52. > :51:56.captainly -- significantly increased responsibilities, planning,
:51:57. > :51:58.community planning, local investment opportunities, economic development,
:51:59. > :52:04.a swathe of additional functions that come in. And councillors will
:52:05. > :52:09.have to and be required to step up to the mark. We heard from Brian
:52:10. > :52:13.Wilson, a councillor, on the view who said, councillors can will have
:52:14. > :52:18.less to do and it is a waste of money. He said it is a part-time job
:52:19. > :52:24.and people should wise up. Brian would need to read himself further
:52:25. > :52:29.into what is coming. There is no, I heard no one else reiterate that.
:52:30. > :52:33.You might not, because they have a vested interest. When you look at
:52:34. > :52:39.the functions, councils will be the local economic drivers for bringing
:52:40. > :52:44.in investment. Major investment. The power of community planning is a
:52:45. > :52:46.massive function coming to local government and councils will be
:52:47. > :52:52.charged with developing the community plan that will require
:52:53. > :52:57.resources being tar getted for the first time into local areas. A 50%
:52:58. > :53:02.pay rise at a time of austerity when people working in the public sector
:53:03. > :53:09.are being offered 1%. How could you defend that? 50% coming from a very
:53:10. > :53:15.low base. When you look at 9,000 was what councillors were getting. Which
:53:16. > :53:19.wasn't a salary. No, it was an allowance. To bed is to do the -- to
:53:20. > :53:24.be asked to do the work that is required, it was an independent
:53:25. > :53:28.panel that came up with the figure. You have no difficulty, you hit the
:53:29. > :53:34.is justified and people just need to accept you all work hard and are
:53:35. > :53:38.worth it? Given the new roles, I think there is a deficit in the
:53:39. > :53:43.public's understanding of what the councils will be doing and once they
:53:44. > :53:47.see the powers that are coming and the responsibilities of the
:53:48. > :53:51.councillors, there will be a different acceptance. Maybe they
:53:52. > :53:56.wonder about council headquarters and expensive new buildings have
:53:57. > :54:01.sprung up. We don't know where the new super councils will be head
:54:02. > :54:05.quartered. We have had a boundary commission saying they will be white
:54:06. > :54:10.elephant and we will be paying for them for generations to come.
:54:11. > :54:14.Councils will have to take their own responsibility for that. There have
:54:15. > :54:19.been investment. But at least the investment is done. Should it have
:54:20. > :54:23.been done? That is up to the new councils perhaps they needed them.
:54:24. > :54:30.Perhaps they didn't? I would suggest a lot did need it to be upgraded and
:54:31. > :54:34.that is just... It looks like self-interest on the headquarters
:54:35. > :54:37.and the salaries, people don't like their politicians being
:54:38. > :54:43.self-interested. You are supposed to servous. If you take mid Ulster,
:54:44. > :54:48.there has been no new head quarters built. We will use the head quarters
:54:49. > :54:54.we have and share the responsibility among the councils and there will be
:54:55. > :55:02.no new head quarters built. What the council has done, we can't legislate
:55:03. > :55:04.for that. Thank you. Let's hear a final word from Brian Feeney and
:55:05. > :55:12.Gladys Ganiel. Gladys Ganiel, what do you make of it, 50% increase,
:55:13. > :55:16.head quarters which may be surplus to requirements. I'm more bothered
:55:17. > :55:22.tavb headquarters and are nervous about what will happen to them and
:55:23. > :55:30.the potential for duplication of work at these buildings. Do you have
:55:31. > :55:34.reserve wakeses? Yes, there are too many councillors, their standard is
:55:35. > :55:38.poor. The increase may be an attempt to attract more able councillors.
:55:39. > :55:43.That is what people in local government have said. That's right.
:55:44. > :55:48.It may, well it is still an allowance and not a living salary
:55:49. > :55:55.and not intended to be. And they will get expenses and the thing of
:55:56. > :55:58.building new councils, it is the self-agran diezment that you get
:55:59. > :56:02.among councillors who think they're important and now they will be more
:56:03. > :56:06.important. But we are in the situation we are in. There is not
:56:07. > :56:11.much we can do. Yes but to say it is a matter to tr councillors. It is a
:56:12. > :56:16.matter to tr rate payers who are having to pay for these white
:56:17. > :56:18.elephants. Thank you very much. That's it for now - back to Andrew
:56:19. > :56:23.in London. decision, she will weigh up the
:56:24. > :56:38.The big news is the popular server is struggling to control all of the
:56:39. > :56:43.people who want to find out where they fit in the political spectrum.
:56:44. > :56:48.It hasn't quite crashed but it is queueing up those people. Who would
:56:49. > :56:58.have thought the Sunday Politics had so many viewers? It has never
:56:59. > :57:00.happened on the X factor. This morning's papers don't make
:57:01. > :57:03.comfortable reading for Labour with two separate polls showing the
:57:04. > :57:06.party's lead over the Tories is down to just one point. And there's been
:57:07. > :57:10.plenty of criticism of Ed Miliband's response to the Budget. Let's take a
:57:11. > :57:13.look. You know you are in trouble when even the Education Secretary
:57:14. > :57:25.calls you and out of touch bunch of elitist. Where is he? He is hiding!
:57:26. > :57:32.I think he has been consigned to the naughty step by the Prime Minister.
:57:33. > :57:37.The naughty step! And we're joined now by shadow chief secretary to the
:57:38. > :57:41.Treasury, Chris Leslie. There was a widely criticised response by Ed
:57:42. > :57:47.Balls to the Autumn Statement, now a widely criticised response by Ed
:57:48. > :57:53.Miliband to the Budget. Does this show you are struggling at the
:57:54. > :57:58.moment? Of course Ed Balls and Ed Miliband don't want to hear the fact
:57:59. > :58:02.that in reality, for most people, life is getting harder and there is
:58:03. > :58:12.the cost of living crisis. Did we get any mention of that in the
:58:13. > :58:16.Budget? Of course we didn't. We were waiting for action on the cost of
:58:17. > :58:21.living and it wasn't forthcoming. Ed Miliband came up with the tactic of
:58:22. > :58:26.responding to the Budget without mentioning anything that was in it.
:58:27. > :58:30.He mentioned the fact the personal tax allowance was a bit of a
:58:31. > :58:37.giveaway but he takes more with the other hand. He is in favour of that,
:58:38. > :58:41.right? Anything we can get but we need a lot more. Let me tell you
:58:42. > :58:50.something else he mentioned, the fact the national debt has risen by
:58:51. > :58:53.a third and George Osborne and David Cameron... They knew that before the
:58:54. > :58:59.Budget. The borrowing figures were announced and Ed Miliband made
:59:00. > :59:04.reference to those. There is not a lot of happiness on Labour
:59:05. > :59:09.backbenchers about this, is there? And indeed not a lot of happiness in
:59:10. > :59:14.the shadow cabinet. There is concern that Ed Miliband is on a journey to
:59:15. > :59:18.remodel world capitalism whilst George Osborne is firing some love
:59:19. > :59:22.bombs at Middle England by talking about freeing up the pensions market
:59:23. > :59:27.and there is real nerves that what Ed Miliband is saying is not going
:59:28. > :59:33.to be in tune with those middle income earners that the Labour Party
:59:34. > :59:40.has got to attract if they are going to win the general election. When
:59:41. > :59:44.Rachel Reeves used the medium of Radio 4 to announce you were broadly
:59:45. > :59:48.in favour of the pension reforms announced by the Chancellor on
:59:49. > :59:58.Friday night, was that a result of a decision taken by the shadow
:59:59. > :00:05.cabinet? Is With annuities, they are a very old-fashioned product. There
:00:06. > :00:12.are some serious questions which need to be addressed. Was that the
:00:13. > :00:16.result of a Shadow Cabinet decision? We have not had a Shadow
:00:17. > :00:21.Cabinet since the budget. We all want to make sure that we understand
:00:22. > :00:26.the point about flexibility. No one is arguing with that. There are some
:00:27. > :00:29.serious concerns. Let me give you a couple of examples. This is
:00:30. > :00:34.something the Chancellor has done, he claims, for reasons of freedom
:00:35. > :00:38.and flexibility. Is it a coincidence he is grabbing quite a lot of tax
:00:39. > :00:46.from pensioners early on to plug a hole which is necessary because the
:00:47. > :00:52.deficit has not gone down? Forgive me for being slightly cynical about
:00:53. > :00:57.motives. For or against it? We need to have safeguards for protection of
:00:58. > :01:00.pensioners. What will it do for the annuity market if most people still
:01:01. > :01:08.want to have a steadying come for a third of their lives? -- steady
:01:09. > :01:17.income. What does Labour have to do to get it show back on the road? The
:01:18. > :01:21.question is, how do people feel? How many people will still not be
:01:22. > :01:24.feeling better by the next election? Wages may be rising slightly but not
:01:25. > :01:30.for a large and significant number of people. They were just looking at
:01:31. > :01:33.the YouGov poll. If you look at the middle to low earners, they are
:01:34. > :01:38.overwhelmingly pro-labour. Can Labour get those people out to vote?
:01:39. > :01:42.They are really hurting. There are plenty of them. The question is
:01:43. > :01:47.whether people are optimistic because they see figures as if they
:01:48. > :01:52.look as if they are on the up or whether they vote according to how
:01:53. > :01:57.they feel, which will still be very far behind. Cost of living has been
:01:58. > :02:02.a major mantra from Labour. That's that this chart shows how things are
:02:03. > :02:08.beginning to change. What this shows is that, sometime this year, after a
:02:09. > :02:12.long time at which average earnings trailed inflation, they now overtake
:02:13. > :02:19.it in the run-up to the election and they stay there for the forecast
:02:20. > :02:25.period. What do you now do if your cost of living mantra is running out
:02:26. > :02:29.of steam? I am not sure that, for most people, they will recognise the
:02:30. > :02:32.sense that suddenly things will be getting better. Particularly the
:02:33. > :02:38.younger generation are really feeling quite down about the
:02:39. > :02:45.pressures they are facing to make ends meet. You can see the lines are
:02:46. > :02:50.exaggerated because the Y axis on the side starts quite high up. It
:02:51. > :02:54.does not start at zero. The other statistic from the OBR is that we
:02:55. > :02:58.will not be getting back to the point where wages are exceeding
:02:59. > :03:06.prices from the pre-banking crisis period until late 2017. There are
:03:07. > :03:10.some really serious pressures that people are under. What they wanted
:03:11. > :03:15.was a budget that would address concerns and, for the vast majority
:03:16. > :03:21.of people, they will have heard the statement by George Osborne and
:03:22. > :03:29.think, how is it really help them now? It did not address it. It is
:03:30. > :03:34.clear that by 2015, average living standards will probably not have
:03:35. > :03:38.returned to where they were in 2010. Average wages will not have
:03:39. > :03:42.done that. On the other hand, the chart shows the sense of direction
:03:43. > :03:48.is moving in the right way. Which one matters more with the
:03:49. > :03:51.electorate? I suspect it is sense of direction. People sense of
:03:52. > :03:56.prosperity does not need to be buoyant. It has to be something
:03:57. > :04:02.worth preserving. We have to fear the all turn. That is what intrigued
:04:03. > :04:06.me this week. People make too much of a fuss about the Parliamentary
:04:07. > :04:11.response by Ed Miliband. People will forgive a bad day at the dispatch
:04:12. > :04:18.box. What they will not forgive is the absence of a macro economic
:04:19. > :04:23.mess. Labour have a very powerful message on living standards and lots
:04:24. > :04:29.of popular, targeted interventions like the energy price freeze. You
:04:30. > :04:34.can imagine they will be sufficiently nervous about that next
:04:35. > :04:42.year. If living standards are not back to where they were, Labour can
:04:43. > :04:50.say, are you better off now than when you were four years ago? The
:04:51. > :05:02.reason why break and -- wallowed waken one that is because Jimmy
:05:03. > :05:10.Carter mucked it up -- Ronald Reagan. Labour have to say, vote for
:05:11. > :05:14.us and you will get 2 million homes. At the moment, the offer is very
:05:15. > :05:18.modest. You need to find the money to do that. People need to
:05:19. > :05:22.understand that housing is at the very heart of the economy, as well
:05:23. > :05:29.as young people and their aspirations. At the moment, Labour
:05:30. > :05:32.'s offer is not spectacular in. If the focus group shows the cost of
:05:33. > :05:38.living crisis have no longer has the attraction it did, what line do you
:05:39. > :05:41.move onto? Yellow McCoy must remind people of the wasted years and the
:05:42. > :05:48.cost of living pressures they have been under. -- we must remind
:05:49. > :05:57.people. We want a recovery which has low growth, low wage. A race to the
:05:58. > :06:03.bottom. They want a recovery that is felt by everyone, shared and felt by
:06:04. > :06:08.all. Now, here's an idea to twist your melon. Mark Berry, better known
:06:09. > :06:10.as Bez, it says here he's a member of something called The Happy
:06:11. > :06:14.Mondays, wants to stand for parliament. He's best known for
:06:15. > :06:19.being in a band, and not doing very much, so he might fit in. Here he is
:06:20. > :06:47.in action. And Bez joins us from our Salford
:06:48. > :06:55.studio. Good to see you. Is this a genuine candidacy or are you
:06:56. > :07:04.twisting my melon? Amazing how time flies when you're having fun! You
:07:05. > :07:08.having fun doing this candidacy? I am doing the job of the politicians
:07:09. > :07:14.and standing up for the people and bringing attention to the horror of
:07:15. > :07:18.fracking, which is a totally unsafe technology. There is no one in
:07:19. > :07:23.mainstream politics who is discussing or saying anything about
:07:24. > :07:28.it. It is an unsafe technology and it has been proven in America. You
:07:29. > :07:38.see the process in America and the people out on the streets. The whole
:07:39. > :07:43.atmosphere has been made toxic. These people are allowing it to
:07:44. > :07:49.happen in the name of profit. This has been a Labour seat you are
:07:50. > :07:54.fighting in Salford since 1945. It is a tough mountain. Supposing you
:07:55. > :08:01.were to win, could you ever see yourself entering a coalition? With
:08:02. > :08:04.a bit of luck I may be able to shame Labour politicians to do the job
:08:05. > :08:08.properly and stand up for the rights of people. They are not and I am
:08:09. > :08:14.having to do that job. All I am doing is causing debate and bringing
:08:15. > :08:18.to attention the horror that is hanging on our doorsteps. It is not
:08:19. > :08:23.only fracking but GM modified foods that they want to bring into this
:08:24. > :08:31.country as well. Owen Paterson is one of the main lobbyists. Lobbying
:08:32. > :08:37.is legalised bribery, by the way. It is run by the bankers. Basically, we
:08:38. > :08:41.have to stop these monsters from getting into our country and turning
:08:42. > :08:47.our land into a toxic waste. That is what I am trying to say. You are
:08:48. > :08:53.raising the debate, as you are doing with us here. We do not really need
:08:54. > :08:58.fracking. You have done that and you have talked about other things as
:08:59. > :09:05.well. In terms of a new integrity, if you were to become an MP, would
:09:06. > :09:09.you claim expenses? If I ever do get in charge, I would completely enter
:09:10. > :09:14.the banking system and there would be expensive, but they would be like
:09:15. > :09:18.bus passes and train passes. You behave like the people and you are
:09:19. > :09:23.in touch with the people, you move with the people and do understand
:09:24. > :09:27.what the people want. You do not live in acre Kuhn of your own making
:09:28. > :09:35.of luxury, wealth and total disregard of everyone else. -- a
:09:36. > :09:38.cocoon. If you did get into the Palace of Westminster and had to
:09:39. > :09:44.mingle with all these people, who would you rather have in night out
:09:45. > :09:53.with - Mr Cameron, Mr Miller band or Mr Clegg? I would be willing to
:09:54. > :10:01.discuss politics with anybody. I would make them realise what they
:10:02. > :10:08.are doing. I am glad too have a debate and with anyone. The people
:10:09. > :10:14.of Salford, quite a lot people people behind me. I have been
:10:15. > :10:22.speaking to Salford councillors. They are going to lend me their
:10:23. > :10:28.support. The people of Salford, and not to forget the people of Eccles,
:10:29. > :10:33.sending you much. We must stop this horror. There is a monster on our
:10:34. > :10:39.doorstep and we must stop it, people. Do not forget to take your
:10:40. > :10:47.maracas on campaign trail. Would you like a pair to shake yourself? You
:10:48. > :10:53.shake your maracas against fracking! Thanks, Bez, goodbye. Thank you for
:10:54. > :11:00.giving me a little platform to express my views. Now if there's one
:11:01. > :11:03.thing that gets us hot under the collar here at the Sunday Politics
:11:04. > :11:06.it's European elections. The only thing we like more than the
:11:07. > :11:10.elections themselves is a TV debate about them. And we're in luck! Take
:11:11. > :11:14.a look at this. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome leader of
:11:15. > :11:21.the Liberal Democrats and Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg. Gives
:11:22. > :11:30.the most fantastic welcome to Nigel Farage. I would challenge Nigel
:11:31. > :11:37.Farage to a public, open debate, about whether she we should be out
:11:38. > :11:48.all in of the European Union. I will do it for Nick Clegg. Since 2009, I
:11:49. > :11:54.have taken part in 45% of votes in the European Parliament. Nigel
:11:55. > :12:02.Farage has not tabled a single amendment since July 2009. Mr Clegg
:12:03. > :12:10.has only taken part in 22% of votes in the House of commons. You can
:12:11. > :12:22.watch the debate at 7pm on the 2nd of April over on BBC Two. And for a
:12:23. > :12:25.chance to be part of the studio audience on the night and put your
:12:26. > :12:27.question to the two party leaders, e-mail the question you'd like to
:12:28. > :12:30.ask to europedebate@bbc.co.uk or tweet it using the hashtag
:12:31. > :12:33.#europedebate. And Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage will be limbering up
:12:34. > :12:41.this week with their first debate on LBC radio on Wednesday. Who is going
:12:42. > :12:47.to come out the best? I suspect Nigel Farage. It is easy to portray
:12:48. > :12:52.Nick Clegg as morally compromised, who has not asserted himself in
:12:53. > :12:56.government. I do wonder about Nigel Farage, whether he is much better at
:12:57. > :13:01.delivering a popular line and responding to the second question of
:13:02. > :13:06.third question. Nick Clegg will win it hands over fist because he knows
:13:07. > :13:09.this stuff. He is right. The evidence that he can produce about
:13:10. > :13:17.what will happen if we pulled out of Europe will, I think, overwhelm
:13:18. > :13:24.Nigel Farage 's one-liners. They will both be winners because you
:13:25. > :13:29.will have the rare sight of the pro-European saying he likes the
:13:30. > :13:34.European Union. That is unlike Eurosceptics who tie themselves up
:13:35. > :13:48.in knots. 14 Nigel, one for Nick and one for both. There you go. Here is
:13:49. > :13:52.a mess, it is Janen Ganesh. That's all for today. The Daily Politics is
:13:53. > :13:55.on BBC Two at Lunchtime every day this week, I'll be back here next
:13:56. > :13:56.week with Energy Secretary Ed Davey. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the
:13:57. > :14:02.Sunday Politics.