:01:13. > :01:16.Ministers want the power to make planning decisions. Is it a power
:01:16. > :01:26.grab? Or does it make economic sense? We'll hear from the Planning
:01:26. > :01:26.
:01:26. > :36:33.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2107 seconds
:36:33. > :36:41.Minister, the chair of the committee Politics in Northern Ireland.
:36:41. > :36:44.Planning decisions always have the potential to cause controversy. But
:36:44. > :36:47.now a row is brewing over who will make major economic planning
:36:47. > :36:50.decisions. A proposal by the DUP and Sinn Fein to take away powers from
:36:51. > :36:53.the Department of the Environment and give them to the office of the
:36:53. > :36:55.First and Deputy First Ministers will go before the Assembly
:36:55. > :36:59.tomorrow. Alex Attwood, the Minister with responsibility for planning
:36:59. > :37:02.joins me. And we'll also hear from the chair of the Environment
:37:02. > :37:06.Committee, Anna Lo, and the DUP's Peter Weir. Also today - the world's
:37:06. > :37:09.most powerful leaders have come and gone, but what will be the legacy of
:37:09. > :37:19.the G8 in Fermanagh? We'll have the views of PR expert Sheila Davidson
:37:19. > :37:24.
:37:24. > :37:26.and Jim Flanagan of the Ballymena conservation groups and the chair of
:37:26. > :37:28.the Environment Committee about his proposed Planning Bill, which his
:37:28. > :37:32.critics claim favours economic factors rather than the protection
:37:32. > :37:35.of the environment. But now the DUP and Sinn Fein have tabled amendments
:37:35. > :37:38.to the legislation which would take power away from the Minister and
:37:38. > :37:44.also make it harder to challenge planning decisions in the courts.
:37:44. > :37:49.The Environment Minister, Alex Attwood, joins me. Thank you for
:37:50. > :37:55.joining us, do you see this as an attempted power-grab by Sinn Fein
:37:55. > :37:59.the the DUP? I think in law and politics this is folly. In law I
:37:59. > :38:03.don't think they can do this. Because the amendments are hostile
:38:03. > :38:08.and do violence to Northern Ireland and European legislation. But it is
:38:08. > :38:13.also is bad politics, because we have seen over the last couple of
:38:13. > :38:18.years where First Minister and deputy First Minister took power on
:38:18. > :38:24.to themselves with a neighbourhood renewal project ap it has fallen
:38:24. > :38:29.flat on its face. How much worse if you had another planning authority
:38:29. > :38:37.that don't have the resources, the capacity, or the history of doing
:38:37. > :38:42.planning, what catastrophe this could be at a time when planning has
:38:42. > :38:45.turned many corners. Their view is planning decisions are slow and this
:38:45. > :38:51.is designed to speed things up. you Fawlkes to the development
:38:52. > :38:57.community, they will tell you, unlike two years ago applications by
:38:57. > :39:04.the minister, articles 31s, they are being made more quick Liverpool look
:39:04. > :39:11.at the -- more quickly. Look at the football ground and others, and we
:39:11. > :39:16.are meeting our targets for ordinary application and we are making more
:39:16. > :39:19.decisions is. So I have demonstrated, the planned system can
:39:19. > :39:26.turn corners. What First Minister and deputy First Minister is they
:39:26. > :39:30.want to put it back down a dead end. We have had the G8 leaders here and
:39:30. > :39:36.talked about a new future and a conference that will take place here
:39:36. > :39:40.in October of this year. This ties in with that. What is wrong with a
:39:40. > :39:44.fast track approach to planning decisions in economically
:39:44. > :39:47.significant areas. More and more there is a fast track approach to
:39:47. > :39:53.planning in Northern Ireland. More and people people are recognising
:39:53. > :39:58.that. Look at John Lewis...It is also the case that unther the law at
:39:58. > :40:07.the moment -- under the law at the moment we can have special planning
:40:07. > :40:10.zones, why would FM and DFM beat their chest about them becoming the
:40:10. > :40:17.planning authority when they don't have the legal authority or the ka
:40:17. > :40:22.pas difficult I want to get -- capacity to do it. What they would
:40:22. > :40:28.argue and they're not here, but we have Peter Weir, what they would say
:40:28. > :40:34.is they want to make sure there is no at repeat of the slow de-Igs --
:40:34. > :40:39.decision making process that surrounded the John Lewis
:40:39. > :40:42.application at Sprucefield. That is the something I inherited. There was
:40:42. > :40:46.a lot of delay in the planning system. What I have done and what I
:40:46. > :40:56.think others can do in the future is ensure that planning is fit for
:40:56. > :40:58.
:40:58. > :41:02.purpose and John Lewis is a case in point, as is Runkerry. Let's not
:41:02. > :41:12.give authority to those who don't have is competence to do the job and
:41:12. > :41:18.have demonstrated, be it on a shared future or the functions that they
:41:18. > :41:24.now have they sometimes fall flat on their face. This is bad policy, bad
:41:24. > :41:27.politics and in a situation where we are getting planning better. How do
:41:27. > :41:33.you think they can't do this? This is democracy at work, this is the
:41:33. > :41:36.cut and thrust of politics at Stormont F they get a majority in
:41:37. > :41:42.the House, they will get it through. And they will get a majority,
:41:42. > :41:48.because between them Sinn Fein and the DUP can do that. Democracy can
:41:48. > :41:58.come up with bad law and can express bad politics. The issue is that for
:41:58. > :41:59.
:41:59. > :42:04.example in one of their amendments tabled by the DUP on behalf of Peter
:42:04. > :42:08.Robinson and Martin McGuinness, it is mainly Peter Robinson. He is not
:42:08. > :42:12.here to defend himself, but he is the First Minister, it is being done
:42:12. > :42:19.in the name of his party and Sinn Fein. Whether you like it or not, it
:42:19. > :42:27.is a Sinn Fein o'/DUP amendment. Yes, butt #i9 is being driven by the
:42:27. > :42:30.DUP and Peter Robinson. Meys Most things are driven by the DUP. Under
:42:30. > :42:36.European law and thankfully we are still members of the European Union,
:42:36. > :42:41.there are certain areas in the North that are designated when you come to
:42:41. > :42:47.applications, you have to go through certain procedures. This law
:42:47. > :42:51.proposes you don't do that. That is bad law and hostile to European
:42:51. > :42:56.requirements. You don't like it, because it exposes you as a puppet
:42:57. > :43:02.in the Executive. They can pull your strings. You know, that is the
:43:02. > :43:06.reality. I make one judgment, are they in government, are they in
:43:06. > :43:10.power. I would like to think I for one around the Executive table has
:43:10. > :43:16.demonstrated a difference. The problem is that you can end up with
:43:16. > :43:19.politicians in power who have bad policy and bad politics as part of
:43:19. > :43:24.their story. That will be bad for Northern Ireland and the economic
:43:24. > :43:30.aye hope the DUP and Sinn Fein think again. Stay us with. I want to hear
:43:30. > :43:35.more for you. Peter Weir has proposed the amendments for the DUP
:43:35. > :43:41.and Anna Lo chairs the Environment Committee at Stormont. Fear Weir --
:43:41. > :43:51.Peter Weir, he says it has been driven by the DUP and Peter
:43:51. > :43:54.
:43:54. > :43:58.Robinson? It has been driven by both. We are seeing a knee-jerk
:43:58. > :44:04.reaction. This is adding to what is there. If Northern Ireland is going
:44:04. > :44:07.to show a signal that it is open for business, it will need every
:44:07. > :44:11.economic tool. Without taking power from the minister. We are not
:44:11. > :44:17.creating a new planning authority, we are enabling the authority to
:44:17. > :44:21.make application for economically significant planning zones. The work
:44:21. > :44:26.will Gou through planning service -- go through planning service and at
:44:26. > :44:30.the end it requires the approval of the planning service or the
:44:30. > :44:34.Assembly. So you know, Alex is wrong in relation to that. He mentioned
:44:34. > :44:39.about the European law, but within the amendments we have put in
:44:39. > :44:44.provision that in terms of judiciary review that any planning decision is
:44:44. > :44:49.still challengeable on the ground of breach of European law. That side is
:44:49. > :44:55.protected. This is about trying to give the maximum amount of economic
:44:55. > :45:00.too manies to Northern Ireland. We have an investment conference coming
:45:00. > :45:05.up. If we're saying we are ambitious for investment and jobs. But other
:45:05. > :45:09.people see it as you being ambitious for you. Sinn Fein and the DUP being
:45:09. > :45:13.ambitious for their own parties. we are ambitious for the people of
:45:13. > :45:19.Northern Ireland. The biggest challenge is the economy and lack of
:45:19. > :45:24.investment, lack of jobs. We are making no apology for ambition in
:45:24. > :45:30.trying to grasp every aspect we can. We want to use the current system
:45:30. > :45:40.and add to it where necessary. I don't see a great deal wrong with
:45:40. > :45:41.
:45:41. > :45:46.that. The minister sees a great deal wrong with it. Well he is having his
:45:46. > :45:50.nose put out of joint. Do you have no sympathy with that? I'm sure if I
:45:51. > :45:55.was a minister and saw a role for the Executive to hold in my
:45:55. > :46:04.department, tinge reaction -- I think the reaction is natural. But
:46:04. > :46:07.it is not looking at the wider issues. And a lot of parties such as
:46:07. > :46:11.the Alliance Party, they will be, they will talk the talk about
:46:11. > :46:19.supporting the economy, but when it comes to taking action to Su fort
:46:19. > :46:23.economy, they are not prepared to do that. Let's hear from Anna Lo. You a
:46:23. > :46:30.chair the environment Committee, you're not happy with the proposals
:46:30. > :46:36.being put forward. Why not? Absolutely no. This if it goes
:46:36. > :46:40.through it is very bad law. I don't always see eye to eye with the
:46:40. > :46:47.minister, particularly on Runkerry. But I support the minister this time
:46:47. > :46:56.and it is setting a very bad precedent of taking away power. This
:46:56. > :47:03.is really power-grabbing. This is taking power. Any proposal can only
:47:03. > :47:11.take effect if it is endorsed by the DOE or the Assembly as in relation
:47:11. > :47:17.to any application, it will have to have that approval. How is it taking
:47:17. > :47:25.power away? No ministers now outside of DUP and Sinn Fein should feel
:47:25. > :47:30.safe and nowhere in Northern Ireland will be safe when this planning
:47:30. > :47:32.amendments go through. If and when they go through. What needs to
:47:33. > :47:36.happen tomorrow? Alex Attwood said he doesn't think they can go
:47:36. > :47:42.through. Do you think they can? I am asking the minister to postpone for
:47:42. > :47:49.this for us to look at it. The committee of the environment has not
:47:49. > :47:54.scrutinised this. This is our role to scrutinise planning role to see
:47:54. > :48:00.that we also talk to our stake holders and ask for their view.
:48:00. > :48:05.Dropping this like a bombshell on the Friday morning, to let us know,
:48:05. > :48:10.it not right. I have been open with my colleagues in the committee that
:48:10. > :48:20.I oppose the clauses two and six, they haven't the courtesy to tell us
:48:20. > :48:23.that they have have been working on this. The alliance put down eleven
:48:23. > :48:30.amendment, most haven't been discussed. But not as dramatic as
:48:30. > :48:35.those put forward by yourself. the esigned to put two fingers up to
:48:35. > :48:41.the Runkerry development. Let's not get into that. Minister, there is a
:48:41. > :48:45.clear plea from the chair of the environment Committee, that you not
:48:45. > :48:49.bring this to the House tomorrow. That is one way of trying to deal
:48:49. > :48:54.with it. So everyone gets a chance to draw breath at look at the
:48:54. > :49:01.implications of the proposals. DUP/Sinn Fein amendments are about
:49:01. > :49:04.bad law and bad politics. If somebody tomorrow should not move
:49:04. > :49:09.amendments understand it should be the DUP and Sinn Fein. Because they
:49:09. > :49:14.have created the problems. They can't move amendments if you don't
:49:14. > :49:19.move the main body of the legislation. The authorities of the
:49:19. > :49:23.Northern Ireland Assembly, which has been diminished by the way this has
:49:23. > :49:28.been handled, I'm not going to say to the people of Northern Ireland,
:49:28. > :49:32.let's abandon the law, let's abandon politics, because of the conduct of
:49:32. > :49:37.others. This is the fundamental point, the DUP and Sinn Fein for
:49:37. > :49:42.four and five years have had responsibility for the office of
:49:42. > :49:46.first and deputy First Minister and stumbled around. You have made that
:49:46. > :49:52.point. Why would you want to give to those who have stumbled around on a
:49:52. > :49:57.range of issues more responsibility to stumble around planning? What do
:49:57. > :50:01.you do tomorrow, will you ignore the call from Anna Lo to draw breath and
:50:01. > :50:06.think about it again, will you move the motion tomorrow? I intend to
:50:06. > :50:11.move the bill tomorrow. Which is my responsibility as a minister further
:50:11. > :50:16.to the committee stage of the bill. Even though you're not happy and you
:50:17. > :50:20.know what is coming down the tracks? Yes, it may be as weight of numbers
:50:21. > :50:24.as often happens is greater than the weight of argument. Maybe that will
:50:24. > :50:27.happen again. If that were to happen, I would make one guess and
:50:27. > :50:31.that is that this law will be challenged all the way to the
:50:31. > :50:36.Supreme Court if not beyond on the basis that you cannot do what they
:50:36. > :50:40.are proposing to do under the Northern Ireland Act and around
:50:40. > :50:45.European convention. You will see them in court, that is what you're
:50:46. > :50:49.saying? Somebody will see them in court if they don't pull back and
:50:49. > :50:54.let good argument prevail and good planning prevail, the way it has
:50:54. > :50:58.been in the last two years. Peter Weir, what are the chances of that
:50:58. > :51:04.happening? I don't think that challenge would be successful. We
:51:04. > :51:08.have made provision where any application is incompatible with
:51:08. > :51:12.European law, it can be challenged. We will move our amendments, because
:51:12. > :51:17.we want to see investment and all the tools that can be there to bring
:51:17. > :51:22.jobs. Although there has been no proper consultation. That is the
:51:22. > :51:28.same with every amendment that has been put and that is the nature of
:51:28. > :51:31.consideration stage. Its not as dra mat yibgt as your -- dramatic as
:51:31. > :51:36.your amendments. Others have put forward amendments that have not
:51:36. > :51:40.gone forward. It is there to make law. This is the point. First, the
:51:40. > :51:45.First Minister says he won't take your advice. I think we will have a
:51:45. > :51:52.debate on Monday. Nobody would say that they do not support economic
:51:52. > :51:55.development. But we are not going to give developers blank cheques. We
:51:55. > :52:02.need sustainable development. need to leave it there. We will hear
:52:02. > :52:05.more about this in the days and weeks ahead. Thank you all very much
:52:05. > :52:07.indeed. For two days this week Northern Ireland was the focus of
:52:07. > :52:10.international attention for the G8 summit. From President Obama's
:52:10. > :52:20.speech in Belfast to David Cameron's early morning dip in Lough Erne,
:52:20. > :52:20.
:52:20. > :54:31.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2107 seconds
:54:31. > :54:35.here's a look back at some of those Davidson and Jim Flanagan. Let's
:54:35. > :54:45.talk about planning first. Clearly there is a row brewing in the
:54:45. > :54:48.Assembly tomorrow one would imagine. Fouled FFDFM be trying to muscle in
:54:48. > :54:52.on the Environment Minister? there are issues around planning and
:54:52. > :54:59.they have been rehearsed for years, I have been involved in a number of
:54:59. > :55:03.thing, such as an insit rater in my area. -- incinerator. One thing that
:55:03. > :55:11.come out of the row, the biggest deficit is for ordinary people who
:55:11. > :55:18.don't have the resources to be able to appeal anything. The problem is
:55:18. > :55:24.there is no overview for what guidance there is for developers or
:55:24. > :55:31.communities. So this kind of debate about how will take control over an
:55:31. > :55:37.ultimate decision is for me a way from where ordinary people are. They
:55:37. > :55:41.will want to watch a debate that has nothing do with them. Do you have
:55:41. > :55:45.any sympathy for the minister, he is feeling bruised at the possibility
:55:45. > :55:52.of the First Minister and deputy First Minister taking decisions over
:55:52. > :55:56.his head. Some may say fair enough. The whole debate shows the
:55:56. > :56:01.difficulties when you have five-party coalition government. We
:56:01. > :56:06.have three parties all disagreeing with the way ahead. I will predict
:56:06. > :56:11.it will all end up in the court. Because there doesn't appear to be a
:56:11. > :56:18.meeting of minds. The sooner the question of planning is devolved to
:56:18. > :56:23.the new super councils in 2015 and local people will take decisions,
:56:23. > :56:27.the sooner the better that happens. The last thing people would want is
:56:28. > :56:31.for the this to get mired in the courts again. That is what often
:56:31. > :56:35.happens with planning. That is where it will always end up, because
:56:35. > :56:40.people have a right to their opinion and a right to be able to express
:56:40. > :56:44.what they want in their own backyard. But you have to give
:56:44. > :56:50.people that opportunity and you have to have clarity in where they are
:56:50. > :56:56.going. If its not one First Minister and it is go to another #2k79, there
:56:56. > :57:00.is no -- department, there is no sclarty. It -- clarity. Anna Lo's
:57:00. > :57:07.point that no other minister other than a DUP or Sinn Fein minister can
:57:07. > :57:11.feel safe is the biggest message from this. Thank I yochlt Now for a
:57:11. > :57:14.look back at what proved to be one of the more entertaining weeks in
:57:14. > :57:19.political life here with Stephen Walker. -- thank you now for a look
:57:19. > :57:26.at what proved to be one of the more entertaining weeks in political life
:57:26. > :57:32.with Stephen Walker. As for how to prepare for a hard day's
:57:32. > :57:38.negotiatation, I can recommend a swim in the Loch. In Belfast the
:57:38. > :57:42.president and the first lady took centre stage. To those who take the
:57:42. > :57:51.path of peace, I promise you, the United States will support you every
:57:51. > :57:57.step of the way, we will always be a wind at your back. Similary Wilson
:57:57. > :58:03.and Gerry Adams got up close and personal. We get with the guy with
:58:03. > :58:08.no talent on the football field goes and kicks everyone. I have been on
:58:08. > :58:13.the pitch longer than you. Japanese company said they would
:58:13. > :58:23.create 400 job, but one minister was asked to fund a flute band.
:58:23. > :58:28.
:58:28. > :58:34.haven't any money on me, but... Stephen Walker reporting. A few
:58:34. > :58:38.final thoughts. Jim Flanagan, your thoughts on G8, as successful as we
:58:38. > :58:44.might have expected. Yes it is only good that we are here. The new
:58:44. > :58:50.teenager stole the show and took the spotlight from the world leaders,
:58:50. > :58:55.her speech was positive and talking to want to live for the future was a
:58:55. > :59:00.powerful message. So I predict she will be at the White House next
:59:00. > :59:06.March. What about the legacy, we have got this G8 economic investment
:59:06. > :59:12.conference in October. A thought on that? I think this a positive and we
:59:12. > :59:17.need to get behind, whether you're in the business community or