:01:29. > :01:33.In a Northern Ireland, the Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams will be
:01:33. > :01:43.in the studio to discuss the implications for Republicans. Join
:01:43. > :01:43.
:01:43. > :35:26.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2023 seconds
:35:26. > :35:29.Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:35:29. > :35:34.It is just over a year since the Queen made her historic visit to
:35:34. > :35:38.the Republic of Ireland. At that time it was a step too far for the
:35:38. > :35:41.Deputy First Minister to meet her. Since then, and with the
:35:41. > :35:44.announcement of a visit here to mark the Diamond Jubilee, it is the
:35:44. > :35:54.question that would not go away. Would Martin McGuinness meet the
:35:54. > :36:04.Queen? Finally we have an answer, yes. From this is the right thing
:36:04. > :36:05.
:36:05. > :36:08.to do at the right time and for the right reasons.
:36:08. > :36:10.So what does that decision mean for Sinn Fein as a republican party? We
:36:10. > :36:13.will be putting that question to the party's president.
:36:13. > :36:15.Also on the programme, it is 30 years since homosexuality was
:36:15. > :36:18.decriminalised. Are politicians doing enough to tackle
:36:18. > :36:26.discrimination? Here to discuss all of this DUP MP Jeffrey Donaldson
:36:26. > :36:29.and commentator Brian Feeney. It is not that long ago that it
:36:29. > :36:32.would have been unthinkable for a member of Sinn Fein to meet the
:36:32. > :36:34.Queen. This week though history will be made. Our political
:36:34. > :36:44.correspondent looks back and traces Martin McGuinness's journey from
:36:44. > :36:49.IRA leader to peacemaker. A sign of the Times in 1977. The
:36:49. > :36:53.Queen marked 25 years from the throne and the IRA marked another
:36:53. > :37:02.year in it last war. The face of that campaign was Martin McGuinness
:37:02. > :37:11.who joined as a teenager. Can you say whether the bombing as a likely
:37:11. > :37:18.to stop in the near future? Well, I will always take it under
:37:18. > :37:24.consideration. Later he went on the run and was imprisoned for IRA
:37:24. > :37:29.membership. He has since claimed that he left the organisation in
:37:29. > :37:35.1974 but made no secret of his support for the IRA and opposition
:37:35. > :37:41.to the union. The Queen's Silver Jubilee visit brought a 21 gun
:37:41. > :37:46.salute to Belfast, but it was a tale of two tribes. The sound from
:37:46. > :37:51.nationalists was one of protests. Security was tight in the face of
:37:51. > :37:58.the Queen's visit. Tensions deepened when a republican teenager
:37:58. > :38:03.was shot dead by the army on the eve of the visit. These scenes
:38:03. > :38:09.accompanied the visit. For the have watched events with deep concern
:38:09. > :38:14.and sadness. -- we have watched events. No one could remain unmoved
:38:14. > :38:19.by the violence and the grief that follows. The Queen spoke of
:38:19. > :38:27.reconciliation, but two years later the monarch was personally touched
:38:27. > :38:36.when her cousin was murdered by the IRA. His campaign, Martin
:38:36. > :38:41.McGuinness continued to front. the end of the day it will be the
:38:41. > :38:44.cutting edge of the IRA that will bring freedom. Sinn Fein was
:38:44. > :38:50.changing but the message of violence was not. Our position is
:38:51. > :38:54.clear that it will never change. The war against the British must
:38:54. > :39:04.continue until freedom is achieved. But a new decade brought a new
:39:04. > :39:05.
:39:05. > :39:11.message, peace and a ceasefire. Martin McGuinness became the chief
:39:11. > :39:15.-- became very a vault higher up and the IRA. Let's not give them
:39:15. > :39:20.what they want. Power-sharing brought Sinn Fein to Stormont, but
:39:20. > :39:25.the party stayed away when the Queen visited to mark the Golden
:39:25. > :39:28.Jubilee. Martin McGuinness stayed home last year where they are then
:39:29. > :39:33.joined the First Minister in greeting the Queen. But month later,
:39:33. > :39:38.during an Irish presidential election, the attitude had shifted.
:39:38. > :39:41.The day in which a Queen of England comes to meet with Martin
:39:41. > :39:48.McGuinness as president of Ireland would be a huge occasion. That was
:39:48. > :39:58.not to be. Instead, the Queen will creep Martin McGuinness soon as
:39:58. > :39:59.
:39:59. > :40:04.they bitty first minister. -- will Just watching those pictures, how
:40:04. > :40:11.significant is this meeting? It is very significant in that the
:40:11. > :40:17.journey that we are on. Republicans, I think, are, on the one hand,
:40:17. > :40:23.divided into two constituencies. There are those who are tragically
:40:23. > :40:27.against us and those who are for us. There are those who suffered under
:40:27. > :40:32.British state guidance and they are hoping that it works out well. Why
:40:32. > :40:39.are we doing this and why are we doing it at this time? We think
:40:39. > :40:44.that as we continue on the path as we would see it towards a united
:40:44. > :40:49.Ireland, we know that cannot happen unless the Unionists are part of
:40:49. > :40:57.aid. We have to give space out of respect for our neighbours who have
:40:57. > :41:04.a loyalty to the Queen of England that we do not have. There is a
:41:04. > :41:09.very significant step that might bring us into a new platform and
:41:09. > :41:16.into other phases which can be built upon. It is a big ask for
:41:16. > :41:20.republicans and a big ask for the Queen as well. I think everyone
:41:20. > :41:30.involved... The Queen will be there and Martin will be there and Peter
:41:30. > :41:32.
:41:32. > :41:42.Robinson will be there. Many people have suffered including the Queen
:41:42. > :41:47.herself. Her family have been bereaved as a cause of the conflict.
:41:47. > :41:52.-- as a result of the conflict. There are others here who will not
:41:52. > :41:57.engage in talks and will stand back from the peace process. They do
:41:57. > :42:04.need the cover of the Irish President -- did you need the cover
:42:04. > :42:10.of the Irish President to sell it to your constituency? We have an
:42:10. > :42:20.ongoing process Of Equality building. Martin McGuinness will
:42:20. > :42:22.
:42:22. > :42:26.meet the Queen of England as an equal. The hosts will be an All
:42:26. > :42:35.Ireland a charitable organisation. This all makes it easier to
:42:35. > :42:43.represent where we have gone and where we have come to as an island
:42:43. > :42:48.-- tu as an island... Thankfully we are out of all of that. He said on
:42:48. > :42:53.Friday it was not a unanimous decision but it was a clear
:42:53. > :42:57.majority for those who did not degree -- agreed. What happens with
:42:57. > :43:04.them? Are they accepting it, or is there a chance that you will
:43:04. > :43:12.increase the ranks of the dissidents? We did 40 meetings
:43:12. > :43:17.across the island on Thursday evening and we brought together
:43:17. > :43:22.1,500 republicans. We got as many people as we could together to
:43:22. > :43:28.discuss these matters. We have been engaging on a one-to-one basis with
:43:28. > :43:36.people. We have spoken to families of the dead. The victims' groups
:43:36. > :43:41.have suffered under British state guidance. We want to have a healthy
:43:41. > :43:46.climate of dissent. I did a number of the meetings in my constituency
:43:46. > :43:51.and I talked to people in West Belfast yesterday. One of the
:43:51. > :43:56.things I've found quite marked is that the argument has been put
:43:56. > :44:04.trenchantly by those who are for and against us and at the end
:44:04. > :44:09.people stood behind and they were very quarter will and our party and
:44:09. > :44:15.our constituency may disagree on some situations but they are united
:44:15. > :44:19.on the fundamentals that most of us want the most change. We have been
:44:19. > :44:24.talking for a long time to Unionists and issuing policy
:44:24. > :44:29.statements, trying to reach out and verbally. This goes beyond the
:44:29. > :44:36.rhetoric. Those who think we are not serious about the ability of
:44:36. > :44:40.someone to be British and come from the island of Ireland and Unionists
:44:40. > :44:45.will see in this gesture that we are moving significantly beyond
:44:45. > :44:54.rhetoric. But there is more to reconciliation that Sinn Fein's
:44:54. > :45:00.Martin McGuinness meeting the Queen. Of course. We are engaged in those
:45:00. > :45:05.ongoing initiatives. Some of it is going on at the grass roots level.
:45:05. > :45:11.If you are are on the dole, if you are in poverty and cannot get
:45:11. > :45:18.access to education, if you do not have a proper quality of life, than
:45:18. > :45:28.equality is just an abstract ideal. -- than many quality is just an
:45:28. > :45:37.
:45:37. > :45:46.We are so divided. We are living apart and working apart and we are
:45:46. > :45:53.too small for that. What does Conor Murphy's role have to do with this?
:45:54. > :46:01.What message does he sent to Unionists? He has absolutely
:46:01. > :46:07.rejected this. Protocols were followed and decisions are made.
:46:07. > :46:11.One can question anything that one wants to question. Accepting
:46:11. > :46:18.everything is fallible. That is the fallacy of a lot of what has
:46:18. > :46:27.happened on this island. But look, the issues of uniting and agreeing
:46:27. > :46:32.to disagree and defending the accommodation between loyalists and
:46:32. > :46:38.Unionists, that will be a continuing challenging exercise.
:46:38. > :46:45.What this engagement next week will do is show what is possible. I
:46:45. > :46:48.would like to think that when it is over people, those of us who want
:46:48. > :46:55.positivity in our future and harmony and a better Ireland,
:46:55. > :47:00.because we deserve a better society, will see this as a good thing.
:47:00. > :47:05.you reluctant to have a photograph released of Martin McGuinness
:47:05. > :47:10.having a handshake with the Queen? We understand there will not be a
:47:10. > :47:13.picture released. I would not suggest that there has been any
:47:13. > :47:18.notification from Buckingham Palace but there is certainly no objection
:47:18. > :47:27.from Sinn Fein. We are doing this as pout republicans. We are
:47:27. > :47:31.confident and modern in our vision. We think it is the right thing to
:47:31. > :47:39.do. The handshake or whatever greetings are involved between the
:47:39. > :47:44.principles, of course we have no objection to that. Jefferey, how do
:47:45. > :47:50.you view this? Well, it is something that we have waited a
:47:50. > :47:56.long time to see. I think that we recognise that Her Majesty the
:47:56. > :47:59.Queen is coming to Northern Ireland as part of her Diamond Jubilee
:47:59. > :48:05.celebrations and a lot of people are looking forward to her visit.
:48:05. > :48:10.As part of that, the Deputy First Minister, he is a minister in the
:48:10. > :48:19.Northern Ireland executive, will be meeting Her Majesty. That is a good
:48:19. > :48:25.thing and perhaps long overdue. you recognise that this is a
:48:25. > :48:31.nucleus and the peace process? would not put it that way but it is
:48:31. > :48:34.part of moving Northern Ireland forward. This visit is very
:48:34. > :48:38.important to the Unionist community, but even beyond that, there are
:48:38. > :48:42.many people who I think will welcome the visit of the Queen who
:48:42. > :48:46.are not Unionist. I think it is important that Her Majesty feels
:48:46. > :48:50.welcome in Northern Ireland and it is important that people recognise
:48:50. > :48:55.her position as the head of state. Therefore I think this is progress.
:48:55. > :49:01.Of course it is difficult for Her Majesty. She lost a member of her
:49:01. > :49:07.family, a very close member of her family, during the Troubles. There
:49:07. > :49:11.will be many people, victims of IRA terrorism who will find the
:49:11. > :49:16.encounter a difficult. But the peace process is about tackling the
:49:16. > :49:19.difficult issues, making the difficult decisions. Her Majesty
:49:20. > :49:23.support the peace process and she is making a very valuable
:49:23. > :49:27.contribution to helping Northern Ireland with a foreword to a place
:49:27. > :49:31.where we can move - never live together on a basis of mutual
:49:32. > :49:38.respect and Anders -- where we can live together on a basis of mutual
:49:38. > :49:42.respect and understanding. I am sure that there is an appreciation
:49:42. > :49:47.that there are difficulties and that has required a lot of
:49:47. > :49:52.organisation and planning behind the scenes to produce the
:49:52. > :49:58.circumstances. I think it has been very cleverly done, where the
:49:58. > :50:04.meeting is going to take place. Mr Adams says that the fact that the
:50:04. > :50:07.meeting is under the auspices of an All Ireland Organisation, Unionists
:50:07. > :50:17.must know from the planning that has gone into it that this is a big
:50:17. > :50:20.
:50:20. > :50:29.We heard about the reconciliation talks. Our reconciliation moves
:50:29. > :50:34.coming from one side, or de Unionists need to do more? I think
:50:34. > :50:39.Unionists have to do a lot of work, actually. There has been a lot of
:50:39. > :50:44.work by Republicans. This brings it to another phase. This would be
:50:44. > :50:49.complete the circle. The relationship between the parties
:50:49. > :50:54.have developed enormously. This was something that was required. In
:50:54. > :50:57.many ways it was inevitable after the Queen had gone to Dublin.
:50:57. > :51:06.Republicans could not take the risk last year or until they had seen
:51:06. > :51:10.what the Queen did. The fact the Queen paid her respects to the war
:51:11. > :51:17.dead from the war of independence, tried to master a couple of words
:51:17. > :51:22.in Irish, all of that was very important. It was impossible not to
:51:22. > :51:29.reciprocate the gestures the Queen had done. They did the clear, the
:51:29. > :51:33.Queen does not do these things are wrong initiative. -- letter of us.
:51:33. > :51:38.The Queen will meet anybody the British Government tells her to
:51:38. > :51:41.meet. She is a symbol for the British Government. There is a lot
:51:41. > :51:50.of political and diplomatic work that goes into this. The Queen does
:51:50. > :51:55.what she has told. Did the Queen pave the way for this? At the time
:51:55. > :51:59.I did recognise and acknowledge the significance of her words, her
:51:59. > :52:04.laying of the wreath at the Garden of Remembrance, what she said,
:52:04. > :52:10.particularly about all of the victims. I think Brian makes an
:52:10. > :52:19.important point. This would not have happened without the British
:52:19. > :52:28.Government. You asked how significant this is beyond a symbol.
:52:28. > :52:36.That depends on how we build on it. And I mean all of us. What can
:52:36. > :52:42.Unionists do? There should be no excuse for people not talking now.
:52:42. > :52:48.We are going into the month of July. There should be no issue around
:52:48. > :52:55.Irish language of rights when you have the English Mark being
:52:55. > :53:02.prepared to use a few words. -- English mark. There is an example
:53:02. > :53:06.being set by the four principles. Peter Robinson, Martin McGuinness,
:53:06. > :53:12.the Queen of England and the president of Ireland. Why would
:53:12. > :53:19.have thought not get together and try to resolve our problems? Why
:53:19. > :53:27.can we not imagine a different type of Ireland? The Irish striker is
:53:27. > :53:35.orange. It is one of our national colours. -- Irish tricolour.
:53:35. > :53:41.Harmony between the green and the orange. Letter us try to develop a
:53:41. > :53:49.cordial Union. Even this discussion would not have happened 10 years
:53:49. > :53:56.ago. Here is Jeffrey, a former member of the UDR, a man who served
:53:56. > :54:05.in military service. All of us have come a very long distance. Keep
:54:05. > :54:11.moving forward. Fundamentally your views are still not the same?
:54:11. > :54:20.but we can accommodate. We can work out. The big bit of the Good Friday
:54:20. > :54:25.agreement is that the Government of Ireland Act has gone. There is a
:54:25. > :54:30.clear acknowledgement that we need the Union of Catholics, Protestants
:54:30. > :54:36.and dissenters. That is a big challenge for Republicans. I think
:54:36. > :54:39.it is a big challenge for Unionists. Even if you're against a United
:54:39. > :54:44.Ireland, and I do not suggest Unionists are changing their tune,
:54:44. > :54:50.but what they have changed their view on is that with a land mass
:54:50. > :54:55.this size, co-operation across the island to the mutual benefit of the
:54:55. > :55:00.people is the right thing to do. What we also need to do is to
:55:00. > :55:06.translate the words into practical action. Gerry Cox about the Orange
:55:06. > :55:11.tradition. Yet we still hear the refrain from Republicans, nor
:55:11. > :55:14.Orange feet here. Surely we want to move to a situation where people do
:55:14. > :55:18.not get upset because somebody else wants to exercise their tradition
:55:18. > :55:23.and their culture? That is the shared future Peter Robinson has
:55:23. > :55:30.been talking about. We need to move beyond the words and we need to
:55:30. > :55:37.give that practical effect. We're no longer into no go areas and
:55:37. > :55:40.peace walls. We want to move to a situation in Northern Ireland where
:55:40. > :55:45.it is truly about respect and accommodating each other's culture
:55:46. > :55:50.and tradition. That means the Orange tradition has to be
:55:50. > :55:56.accommodated. As for a United Ireland, Unionists are very clearly
:55:56. > :55:59.winning the argument. More people from a Catholic background
:55:59. > :56:04.accepting and embracing the benefits of remaining within the
:56:04. > :56:07.United Kingdom. It is a debate we are happy to engage in. But we are
:56:07. > :56:13.very clear that more people in Northern Ireland are backing the
:56:13. > :56:17.union. The Queen is the queen of the United Kingdom. I am not
:56:17. > :56:22.English. She is the queen of the United Kingdom. Gerry Cox about
:56:22. > :56:26.language. Proper use of the language is important. And
:56:26. > :56:33.recognising the Queen is not just the Queen of England, she is the
:56:33. > :56:38.queen of the United Kingdom. She is my queen. I respect that but she is
:56:38. > :56:43.not my Queen and she is not Martin McGuinness's Queen. He is a proud
:56:43. > :56:50.Republican. The reason why Martin is going to meet the Queen is out
:56:50. > :57:00.of respect to you. You'll are a progressive. You talk about Orange
:57:00. > :57:06.
:57:06. > :57:09.marchers. The Orangemen will still not be -- will still not talk to us.
:57:09. > :57:13.If there are issues around contentious parades, we should talk
:57:13. > :57:17.about it. That is a debate for another day. Thank you very much
:57:17. > :57:22.indeed. It's 30 years since homosexuality was decriminalised in
:57:22. > :57:26.Northern Ireland. But how far have we come in terms of our attitudes?
:57:26. > :57:29.Ken Maginnis - now Lord Maginnis - recently caused a storm with his
:57:29. > :57:32.views. And on this programme last week, the Health Minister Edwin
:57:32. > :57:36.Poots stood by his controversial lifetime ban on gay men giving
:57:36. > :57:46.blood. Yvette Shapiro asks if Northern Ireland's a cold house for
:57:46. > :57:57.
:57:57. > :58:06.The next thing is some sort of beast reality. People who engage in
:58:06. > :58:10.high-risk sexual behaviour should be excluded from giving blood.
:58:10. > :58:14.actor is gay and HIV positive. He was bullied at school and had to
:58:14. > :58:18.move house because of threats. He said recent pronouncements from
:58:18. > :58:23.politicians are hurtful. It is difficult for me to get my head
:58:23. > :58:28.around it. I come from a very loving family. I have had a great
:58:28. > :58:33.support network of friends. I come from a Christian family. I was just
:58:33. > :58:39.accepted with open arms. Then you have these politicians who are
:58:39. > :58:48.ministers, men of God, that are not showing God's low of two fellow
:58:48. > :58:53.people. They are just showing hate and judging them. It is 30 years
:58:53. > :58:58.since, sexuality was decriminalised in Northern Ireland. Recent surveys
:58:58. > :59:03.suggest a hardening of attitudes. In 2005, 14% up people said they
:59:03. > :59:07.would be unhappy about a gay person living next door. That figure
:59:07. > :59:14.doubled in the latest survey. Around one third of people would
:59:14. > :59:23.mind a transgender person as a work colleague. 40% as a neighbour and
:59:23. > :59:31.53% as an end of. Infrastructure needs to be amended to include
:59:31. > :59:36.gender relations. It is a community relations issue and a good
:59:36. > :59:41.relations this year. Work on a strategy on sexual orientation
:59:41. > :59:43.began at Stormont six years ago. The Office of First Minister and
:59:43. > :59:49.Deputy First Minister promise it will be published before the end of
:59:49. > :59:54.the year. I have always felt Northern Ireland is more liberal
:59:54. > :59:59.than its reputation. Certainly I and others who have come out as gay
:59:59. > :00:03.have survived perfectly adequately. It was this man's case that led to
:00:03. > :00:07.the legalisation of homosexuality here. He says gay people will wish
:00:07. > :00:14.to donate blood, get married or adopt children will not find
:00:14. > :00:22.support in Stormont. It will have to be endorsed by the Democratic
:00:22. > :00:28.Unionist Party. It is all about mood music. The fact of the matter
:00:28. > :00:36.is that strategy will come up against changes in the law that
:00:36. > :00:40.will be needed. I suspect the court will end up being bigger friends
:00:40. > :00:45.than Government. Representatives instalment are cautious by nature.
:00:45. > :00:49.They tend not to lead but to follow. They take the temperature of what
:00:49. > :00:55.is going on in their particular constituency. I do not think that
:00:55. > :01:03.his leadership. I do hope that other politicians will actually
:01:03. > :01:08.take the lead. They need to stand up and fight for us. The people
:01:08. > :01:14.standing up and fighting are the people who are negative about it.
:01:14. > :01:20.The people who think it is OK to be gay are not shouting about it.
:01:20. > :01:23.Jeffrey Donaldson, it does seem in some circumstances that
:01:23. > :01:28.sectarianism is the only crime in Northern Ireland. It is OK to be
:01:28. > :01:35.homophobic? That is not the case at all. We have the strongest equality
:01:35. > :01:38.legislation in the Union. Section 75. There is no one else in the EU
:01:38. > :01:43.where you will find equality legislation as strong as we have.
:01:43. > :01:48.We have also got the strongest anti-discrimination laws. This week
:01:48. > :01:52.we find as Sinn Fein minister discriminating against prominent --
:01:52. > :01:57.Protestants. There is a big issue that has to be tackled. It is
:01:57. > :01:59.ending sectarianism. We are out of time. What's the connection between
:01:59. > :02:09.Sammy Wilson's shed and missing budget papers - Stephen Walker has
:02:09. > :02:13.
:02:13. > :02:16.the answers in this week's This week money mattered. The
:02:16. > :02:20.finance minister was wanted for questioning and told to bring his
:02:20. > :02:24.figures to the table. It would be better in terms of constructive
:02:24. > :02:30.engagement if he would wind his neck in and offer a proper
:02:30. > :02:37.explanation. They waited and waited. When Sammy Wilson finally appeared,
:02:37. > :02:41.he seemed quite at home. I had been looking forward to this all week.
:02:41. > :02:47.Former minister Conor Murphy found himself in hot water over an
:02:47. > :02:52.appointment process. The Old Bailey bomber that prison for a hospital.
:02:52. > :02:58.Survivors and victims formed a new group and vowed to work together.
:02:58. > :03:02.There is far more that unites people than divides them. Who says
:03:02. > :03:12.Gough and giants don't mix? Politicians played political
:03:12. > :03:12.
:03:12. > :03:16.football. But they could not resist a blame game. Typical Unionists.