:00:36. > :00:41.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:44.Labour's been hit hard by scandals at the Co-op. Ed Miliband says the
:00:45. > :00:47.Tories are mudslinging. We'll speak to Conservative Chairman Grant
:00:48. > :00:50.Shapps. Five years on from the financial
:00:51. > :00:53.crisis, and we're still talking about banks in trouble. Why haven't
:00:54. > :00:58.the regulators got the message? We'll ask the man who runs the
:00:59. > :01:02.City's new financial watchdog. And he used to have a windmill on
:01:03. > :01:06.his roof and talked about giving hugs to hoodies and huskies. These
:01:07. > :01:06.days, not so much. Has the plan to make
:01:07. > :01:11.Coming up here - the DUP leader, make the
:01:12. > :01:14.Coming up here - the DUP leader, Peter Robinson, on the challenge of
:01:15. > :01:17.making unionism more open and inviting, union flag protests and
:01:18. > :01:19.the debate over running a second Euro candidate. Join us
:01:20. > :01:26.homelessness and population ships. What is the evidence?
:01:27. > :01:31.And as always, the political panel that reaches the parts other shows
:01:32. > :01:35.can only dream of. Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis and Nick Watt. They'll
:01:36. > :01:39.be tweeting faster than England loses wickets to Australia. Yes,
:01:40. > :01:42.they're really that fast. First, some big news overnight from
:01:43. > :01:45.Geneva, where Iran has agreed to curb some of its nuclear activities
:01:46. > :01:50.in return for the partial easing of sanctions. Iran will pause the
:01:51. > :02:00.enrichment of uranium to weapons grade and America will free up some
:02:01. > :02:04.funds for Iran to spend. May be up to $10 billion. A more comprehensive
:02:05. > :02:06.deal is supposed to be done in six months. Here's what President Obama
:02:07. > :02:15.had to say about this interim agreement. We have pursued intensive
:02:16. > :02:19.diplomacy, bilaterally with the Iranians, and together with our
:02:20. > :02:23.partners, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Russia and China,
:02:24. > :02:29.as well as the European Union. Today, that diplomacy opened up a
:02:30. > :02:35.new path towards a world that is more secure, a future in which we
:02:36. > :02:42.can verify that Iraq and's nuclear programme is peaceful, and that it
:02:43. > :02:45.cannot build a nuclear weapon. President Obama spoke from the White
:02:46. > :02:51.House last night. Now the difficulty begins. This is meant to lead to a
:02:52. > :02:57.full-scale agreement which will effectively end all sanctions, and
:02:58. > :03:01.end Iran's ability to have a bomb. The early signs are pretty good. The
:03:02. > :03:04.Iranian currency strengthened overnight, which is exactly what the
:03:05. > :03:10.Iranians wanted. Inflation in Iraq overnight, which is exactly what the
:03:11. > :03:16.is 40%, so they need a stronger currency. -- information in Iran.
:03:17. > :03:20.France has played a blinder. It was there intransigence that led to
:03:21. > :03:25.this. Otherwise, I think the West would have led to a much softer
:03:26. > :03:30.deal. The question now becomes implementation. Here, everything
:03:31. > :03:35.hinges on two questions. First, who is Hassan Rouhani? Is he the
:03:36. > :03:40.Iranians Gorbachev, a serious reformer, or he's here much more
:03:41. > :03:46.tactical and cynical figure? Or, within Iran, how powerful is he?
:03:47. > :03:53.There are military men and intelligence officials within Iran
:03:54. > :03:57.who may stymie the process. The Western media concentrate on the
:03:58. > :04:00.fact that Mr Netanyahu and the Israelis are not happy about this.
:04:01. > :04:05.They don't often mention that the Arab Gulf states are also very
:04:06. > :04:14.apprehensive about this deal. I read this morning that the enemies of
:04:15. > :04:22.Qatar and Kuwait went to Saudi king. -- the MAs row. That is the key
:04:23. > :04:27.thing to watch in the next couple of weeks. There was a response from
:04:28. > :04:32.Saudi Arabia, but it came from the Prime Minister of Israel, who said
:04:33. > :04:36.this was a historic mistake. The United States said there would be no
:04:37. > :04:40.enrichment of uranium to weapons grade. In the last few minutes, the
:04:41. > :04:49.Iranian Foreign Minister has tweeted to say that there is an inalienable
:04:50. > :04:54.right -- right to enrich. The key thing is the most important thing
:04:55. > :04:59.that President Obama said in his inaugural speech. He reached out to
:05:00. > :05:06.Iran. It failed under President McKenna jab. Under President
:05:07. > :05:10.Rouhani, there seems to be progress. There is potentially now what he
:05:11. > :05:16.talked about in that first inaugural address potentially coming through.
:05:17. > :05:21.In the end, the key issue - and we don't know the answer - is the
:05:22. > :05:25.supreme leader, not the president. Will the supreme leader agreed to
:05:26. > :05:32.Iran giving up its ability to create nuclear weapons? This is the huge
:05:33. > :05:37.ambiguity. Ayatollah Khamenei authorise the position that
:05:38. > :05:40.President Rouhani took to Geneva. That doesn't mean he will sign off
:05:41. > :05:45.on every bit of implementation over the next six months. Even when
:05:46. > :05:52.President Ahmadinejad was president, he wasn't really President. We in
:05:53. > :05:56.the West have to resort to a kind of Iranians version of the study of the
:05:57. > :06:08.Kremlin, to work out what is going on. And the problem the president
:06:09. > :06:14.faces is that if there is any sign... He can unlock these funds by
:06:15. > :06:19.executive order at the moment, but if he needs any more, he has to go
:06:20. > :06:26.to Congress. Both the Democrat and the Republican side have huge
:06:27. > :06:30.scepticism about this. And he has very low credibility now. There's
:06:31. > :06:35.already been angry noises coming from quite a lot of senators. It was
:06:36. > :06:40.quite strange to see that photo of John Kerry hugging Cathy Ashton as
:06:41. > :06:49.if they had survived a ship great together. John Kerry is clearly
:06:50. > :06:52.feeling very happy. We will keep an eye on this. It is a fascinating
:06:53. > :06:55.development. More lurid details about the
:06:56. > :07:00.personal life of the Co-op Bank's disgraced former chairman, the
:07:01. > :07:03.Reverend Paul Flowers. The links between Labour, the bank and the
:07:04. > :07:05.wider Co-op movement have caused big problems for Ed Miliband this week,
:07:06. > :07:11.and the Conservatives have been revelling in it. But do the Tory
:07:12. > :07:19.allegations - Ed Miliband calls them "smears" - stack up? Party Chairman
:07:20. > :07:27.Grant Shapps joins us from Hatfield. Welcome to the programme. When it
:07:28. > :07:34.comes to the Co-op, what are you accusing Labour of knowing and when?
:07:35. > :07:39.I think the simple thing to say here is that the Co-op is an important
:07:40. > :07:43.bank. They have obviously got into difficulty with Reverend flowers,
:07:44. > :07:47.and our primary concern is making sure that that is properly
:07:48. > :07:50.investigated, and that we understand what happened at the bank and how
:07:51. > :07:56.somebody like Paul Flowers could have ended up thing appointed
:07:57. > :08:02.chairman. You wrote to edge Miliband on Tuesday and asked him what he
:08:03. > :08:05.knew and when. -- you wrote to Ed Miliband. But by Prime Minister's
:08:06. > :08:12.Questions on Wednesday, David Cameron claims that you knew that
:08:13. > :08:17.Labour knew about his past all along. What is the evidence for
:08:18. > :08:25.that? We found out by Wednesday that he had been a Labour councillor,
:08:26. > :08:29.Reverend Flowers, and had been made to stand down. Certainly, Labour
:08:30. > :08:33.knew about that, but somehow didn't seem to think that that made him
:08:34. > :08:38.less appropriate to be the chairman of the Co-op bank. There was no
:08:39. > :08:45.evidence that Mr Miliband or Mr Balls knew about that. I ask you
:08:46. > :08:55.again, what are you accusing the Labour leadership of knowing? We
:08:56. > :08:59.know now that he stood down for very inappropriate images on his
:09:00. > :09:04.computer, apparently. You are telling me that they didn't know. I
:09:05. > :09:07.am not sure that is clear at all. I have heard conflicting reports.
:09:08. > :09:12.There is a much bigger argument about what they knew and when. There
:09:13. > :09:16.was a much bigger issue here. This morning, Ed Miliband has
:09:17. > :09:19.was a much bigger issue here. This they don't have to answer these
:09:20. > :09:23.questions and that these smears. This is ludicrous. These are
:09:24. > :09:26.important questions about an important bank, how it ended up
:09:27. > :09:33.getting into this position, and how a disastrous Britannia -- Italia
:09:34. > :09:40.deal happen. -- Britannia deal happened. And we need to know how
:09:41. > :09:44.the bank came off the rails. To be accused of smears for asking the
:09:45. > :09:48.questions is ridiculous. I am just trying to find out what you are
:09:49. > :09:54.accusing Labour of. You saying that the Labour leadership knew about the
:09:55. > :10:03.drug-taking? Sorry, there was some noise here. I don't know what was
:10:04. > :10:06.known and when. We do know that Labour, the party, certainly knew
:10:07. > :10:09.about these very difficult Labour, the party, certainly knew
:10:10. > :10:15.circumstances in which he resigned as a councillor. I think that the
:10:16. > :10:20.Labour Party knew about it. We knew that Bradford did, but not London.
:10:21. > :10:25.Are you saying that Ed Miliband knew about the inappropriate material on
:10:26. > :10:32.the Reverend's laptop? It is certainly the case that Labour knew
:10:33. > :10:38.about it. But did Mr Miliband know about it, and his predilection for
:10:39. > :10:43.rent boys? He will need to answer those questions. It is quite proper
:10:44. > :10:47.to ask those questions. Surely, asking a perfectly legitimate set of
:10:48. > :10:51.questions, not just about that but about how we have ended up in a
:10:52. > :10:56.situation where this bank has made loans to Labour for millions of
:10:57. > :11:03.pounds, that bank and the Unite bank, who is connected to it. And
:11:04. > :11:07.how they made a ?50,000 donation to Ed Balls' office. Ed Balls says that
:11:08. > :11:13.was nothing to do with Reverend Flowers, and yet Reverend Flowers
:11:14. > :11:18.said that he personally signed that off. Lots of questions to answer.
:11:19. > :11:24.David Cameron has already answered them on Wednesday. He said that you
:11:25. > :11:28.now know that Labour knew about his past all along. You have not been
:11:29. > :11:32.able to present evidence that involve Mr Miliband or Mr Balls in
:11:33. > :11:38.that. So until you get that, surely you should apologise? Hang on. He
:11:39. > :11:43.said that Labour knew about this, and they did, because he stood down
:11:44. > :11:48.as a councillor. If Ed Miliband didn't know about that, then why
:11:49. > :11:50.not? This was quite a serious thing that happened. The wider point is
:11:51. > :11:55.about why it is that when you ask that happened. The wider point is
:11:56. > :11:58.perfectly legitimate questions about this bank, about the Britannia deal,
:11:59. > :12:08.and about the background of Mr flowers, why is the response, it is
:12:09. > :12:11.all smears? There are questions about how Labour failed to deal with
:12:12. > :12:16.the deficit and how it hasn't done anything to support the welfare
:12:17. > :12:25.changes, but there is nothing about that. Let us -- lets: To the wider
:12:26. > :12:33.picture of the Co-operative Bank. Labour wanted the Co-op to take over
:12:34. > :12:37.the Britannia Building Society, and it was a disaster. Do you accept
:12:38. > :12:44.that? The government of the day has to be a part of these discussions
:12:45. > :12:46.for regulatory reason. The government in 2009 - Ed Balls
:12:47. > :12:54.for regulatory reason. The very pleased... But you supported
:12:55. > :12:59.that decision. There was a later deal, potentially, for the Co-op to
:13:00. > :13:05.buy those Lloyds branches. There was a proper process and it didn't go
:13:06. > :13:09.through just recently. If there had been a proper process back in 2009,
:13:10. > :13:16.would the Britannia deal have gone through? First, you accept that the
:13:17. > :13:22.Tories were in favour of the Britannia take over. Then your
:13:23. > :13:25.Chancellor Osborne went out of his way to facilitate the purchase of
:13:26. > :13:31.the Lloyds branches, even though you had no idea that the Co-op had the
:13:32. > :13:36.management expertise to become a super medium. Correct? The
:13:37. > :13:43.difference is that that deal didn't go through. There was a proper
:13:44. > :13:49.process that took place. Let's look at the process. There was long
:13:50. > :13:56.indications as far back as January 2012 that the Co-op, as a direct
:13:57. > :14:00.result of the Britannia take over which you will party supported, was
:14:01. > :14:04.unfit to acquire the Lloyds branches. By January 2012, the
:14:05. > :14:11.Chancellor and the Treasury ignored the warnings. Wide? In 2009, there
:14:12. > :14:15.was political pressure for the Britannia to be brought together.
:14:16. > :14:19.Based on the information available, this was supported, but that process
:14:20. > :14:22.ended up with a very, very problematic takeover of the
:14:23. > :14:28.Britannia. Wind forward to this year, and when the same types of
:14:29. > :14:29.issues were being looked at for the purchase of the Lloyds deal, the
:14:30. > :14:34.proper process was followed, purchase of the Lloyds deal, the
:14:35. > :14:38.time with us in government, and that purchase didn't go through. It is
:14:39. > :14:42.important that the proper process is followed, and when it was, it
:14:43. > :14:52.transpired that the deal wasn't going to be done. But it was the
:14:53. > :14:57.Treasury and the Chancellor who were the cheerleaders for the acquisition
:14:58. > :15:00.of the Lloyds branches. But there was a warning that the Co-op did not
:15:01. > :15:04.have enough capital on its balance sheet to make those acquisitions,
:15:05. > :15:09.but instead of heeding those warnings, your people went to
:15:10. > :15:14.Brussels to lobby for the requirements to be relaxed - why on
:15:15. > :15:18.earth did you do that? Our Chancellor went to argue for all of
:15:19. > :15:22.Rajesh banking, not specifically for the Co-op. He was arguing for the
:15:23. > :15:25.mutuals to the Co-op. He was arguing for the
:15:26. > :15:31.ruling. The idea was to make sure that every bank in Britain could
:15:32. > :15:35.have a better deal, particularly the mutuals, as you say. That is a
:15:36. > :15:40.proper thing for the Chancellor to be doing. We could go round in
:15:41. > :15:43.circles here, but in the end, there was not a takeover of the Lloyds
:15:44. > :15:48.branches, that is because we followed a proper process. Had that
:15:49. > :15:53.same rigorous process been followed in 2009, the legitimate question to
:15:54. > :15:56.ask is whether the Co-op would have been -- would have taken over the
:15:57. > :16:00.Britannia. That is a proper question to ask. It is no good to have the
:16:01. > :16:04.leader of the opposition say, as soon as you ask any of these
:16:05. > :16:09.questions about anything where there is a problem for them, they come
:16:10. > :16:12.back with, oh, this is all smears. There are questions to ask about
:16:13. > :16:17.what the Labour government did, the debt and the deficit they left the
:16:18. > :16:21.country with, the way they stopped work from paying in this country.
:16:22. > :16:26.The big question your government has two answer is, why, by July 2012,
:16:27. > :16:31.when it was clear there was a black hole in the Co-op's balance sheet,
:16:32. > :16:35.your government re-confirmed the Co-op as the preferred bidder for
:16:36. > :16:39.Lloyds - why would you do that? Well, look, the good thing is, we
:16:40. > :16:44.can discuss this until the cows come home, but there is going to be a
:16:45. > :16:48.proper, full investigation, so we will find out what happened, all the
:16:49. > :16:52.way back. So, we will be able to get to the bottom of all of this. Grant
:16:53. > :16:56.Shapps, the only reason the Lloyds deal did not go ahead was, despite
:16:57. > :17:02.the Treasury cheerleading, when Lloyds began its due diligence, it
:17:03. > :17:06.found that there was indeed a huge black hole in the balance sheet and
:17:07. > :17:09.that the Co-op was not fit to take over its branches. That wasn't
:17:10. > :17:13.that the Co-op was not fit to take it wasn't the Government, it was not
:17:14. > :17:19.the Chancellor, it was Lloyds. You were still cheerleading for the deal
:17:20. > :17:23.to go ahead... Well, as I say, a proper process was followed, which
:17:24. > :17:27.did not result in the purchase of the Lloyds branches. At that proper
:17:28. > :17:33.process been followed with the purchase of the Britannia, under the
:17:34. > :17:38.previous government... Which you supported. Yes, but it may well be
:17:39. > :17:41.that under that previous deal, there was a excess political pressure
:17:42. > :17:49.perhaps put on in order to create that merger, which proved so
:17:50. > :17:55.disastrous. The Tories facilitated it, Grant Shapps, they allowed it to
:17:56. > :17:58.go ahead. I have said, we are going to have a proper, independent
:17:59. > :18:03.review. What I cannot understand is, when you announce a robber,
:18:04. > :18:07.review. What I cannot understand is, independent review, the response you
:18:08. > :18:12.get to these serious questions. The response is, oh, this is a smear. It
:18:13. > :18:16.is crazy. We are trying to answer the big questions for this country.
:18:17. > :18:25.We have done all of that, and we are out of time. The Reverend Flowers'
:18:26. > :18:29.chairmanship of the Co-op bank was approved by the regulator at the
:18:30. > :18:33.time, which no longer exists. It was swept away by the coalition
:18:34. > :18:37.government in a supposed revolution in regulation. But will its
:18:38. > :18:47.replacement, the Financial Conduct Authority, be different? Adam has
:18:48. > :18:50.been to find out. Come with me for a spin around the Square mile to find
:18:51. > :18:53.out how we regulate our financial sector, which is almost five times
:18:54. > :18:58.bigger sector, which is almost five times
:18:59. > :19:03.annual income. First, let's pick up our guide, journalist Iain Martin,
:19:04. > :19:09.who has just written a book about what went so wrong during the
:19:10. > :19:12.financial crisis. The FSA was an agency which was established to
:19:13. > :19:16.supervise the banks on a day-to-day basis. The Bank of England was
:19:17. > :19:20.supposed to have overall responsible at for this to Bolivia the financial
:19:21. > :19:24.system and the Treasury was supposed to take an interest in all of these
:19:25. > :19:30.things. The disaster was that it was not anyone's call responsibility, or
:19:31. > :19:34.main day job, to stay alert as to whether or not the banking system as
:19:35. > :19:38.a whole was being run in a safe manner. And so this April, a new
:19:39. > :19:41.system was set up to police the City. Most of the responsibly delays
:19:42. > :19:48.here, with the Bank of England, and City. Most of the responsibly delays
:19:49. > :19:53.its new Prudential Regulation Authority. And the Financial
:19:54. > :19:58.Services Authority has been replaced with the new Financial Conduct
:19:59. > :20:03.Authority. Can we go to the financial conduct authority, please?
:20:04. > :20:08.Canary Wharf, thank you. Here, it is all about whether the people in
:20:09. > :20:12.financial services are playing by the rules, in particular, how they
:20:13. > :20:16.treat their customers. This place has got new powers, like the ability
:20:17. > :20:21.to ban products it does not like, a new mandate to promote competition
:20:22. > :20:25.in the market, the concept being, more competition means a better
:20:26. > :20:31.market, plus the idea that a new organisation rings a whole new
:20:32. > :20:36.culture. Although these are the old offices of the FSA, so maybe not
:20:37. > :20:40.quite so new after all. It has also inherited the case of the Co-op bank
:20:41. > :20:43.and its disgraced former chairman the Reverend Paul Flowers. The SCA
:20:44. > :20:47.will be part of the investigation into what happened, which will
:20:48. > :20:53.probably involve looking at its own conduct. One member of the
:20:54. > :20:57.Parliamentary commission into banking wonders whether the new
:20:58. > :21:02.regulator, and its new boss, are up to it. I have always said, it is not
:21:03. > :21:06.the architecture which is the issue, it is the powers that the regulator
:21:07. > :21:11.has, and today, it does not seem to me as if there is any increase in
:21:12. > :21:16.that. And with the unfolding scandal at the Co-op, it feels like the new
:21:17. > :21:23.architecture for regulating the City is now facing its first big test.
:21:24. > :21:27.And the chief executive of the Financial Conduct Authority, the
:21:28. > :21:30.SCA, Martin Wheatley, joins me now. Welcome to The Sunday Politics. The
:21:31. > :21:34.failure of bank regulation was one failure of bank regulation was one
:21:35. > :21:39.of the clearest lessons of the crash in 2008, and yet two years later, in
:21:40. > :21:45.2010, Paul Flowers is allowed to become chairman of the Co-op - why
:21:46. > :21:50.have we still not got the regulation right? We have made a lot of changes
:21:51. > :21:54.since then. We have created a new regulator, as you know. At the time,
:21:55. > :21:58.we still had a process which allowed somebody to be appointed to a bank
:21:59. > :22:01.and they would go through a challenge, but in the case of Paul
:22:02. > :22:04.Flowers, there was no need for an additional challenge when he was
:22:05. > :22:10.appointed to chairman, because he was already on the board. But going
:22:11. > :22:15.from being on the board to becoming chairman, that is a big jump, and he
:22:16. > :22:19.only had one interview? That is why today, it would be different. But
:22:20. > :22:22.the truth is, that was the system at the time, the system which the FSA
:22:23. > :22:26.operated. He was challenged, we did the time, the system which the FSA
:22:27. > :22:31.challenge him, and we said, you do not have the right experience, but
:22:32. > :22:34.at the time, we would not have opposed the appointment. What we
:22:35. > :22:38.needed was additional representation of the board of people who did have
:22:39. > :22:42.banking experience. You can say that that was then and this is now, but
:22:43. > :22:47.up until April of this year, it was still the plan for the Co-op, under
:22:48. > :22:52.Mr Flowers, and despite being seriously wounded by the Britannia
:22:53. > :22:57.takeover, to take on 632 Lloyds branches. That was the Co-op's
:22:58. > :23:01.plan. They needed to pass our test as to whether we thought they were
:23:02. > :23:05.fit to do that, and frankly, they never passed that test. It was not
:23:06. > :23:09.the regulator that stopped them? It was. We were constantly pushing
:23:10. > :23:12.back, saying, you have not got the capital, you have no got the
:23:13. > :23:17.systems, and ultimately, they withdrew, when they could not answer
:23:18. > :23:21.our questions. You were asking the right questions, I accept that, but
:23:22. > :23:27.all of the time, the politicians on all sides, they were pushing for it
:23:28. > :23:32.to happen, and I cannot find anywhere where the regulator said,
:23:33. > :23:36.look, this is just not going to happen. I cannot comment on what the
:23:37. > :23:39.politicians were doing, but I continue what we were doing, which
:23:40. > :23:42.was constantly asking the Co-op, have you got the systems in place,
:23:43. > :23:48.have you got the people, have you got the capital? And they didn't.
:23:49. > :23:51.But it only came to a head when Lloyds started its own due diligence
:23:52. > :23:54.on the bank, and they discovered that it was impossible for them to
:23:55. > :23:59.take over the branches, it was not the regulator... In fairness, what
:24:00. > :24:05.we do is ask the questions, can you do this deal? And we kept pushing
:24:06. > :24:12.back, and we never frankly got delivered a business plan which we
:24:13. > :24:23.were happy to approve. Is the SCA going to launch its own inquiry into
:24:24. > :24:27.what happened? -- the FCA. The Chancellor has announced what will
:24:28. > :24:32.be a very broad inquiry. There are a number of specifics which we will be
:24:33. > :24:36.able to look at, relating to events over the last five years. Could
:24:37. > :24:40.there be a police investigation? I think the police have already
:24:41. > :24:44.announced an investigation. I am talking about into the handling of
:24:45. > :24:52.the bank. It depends. There might be, if there is grim low activity,
:24:53. > :25:01.which we do not know yet. You worked at the FS eight, didn't you? I did.
:25:02. > :25:04.Some of those people who were signed off on the speedy promotion of Mr
:25:05. > :25:09.Flowers, are they now working there? Yes, we have some. I came to
:25:10. > :25:14.join the Financial Services Authority, to lead it into the
:25:15. > :25:26.creation of the new body, the SCA. We had people who were challenging
:25:27. > :25:30.and they did the job. There was not a requirement to approve the role as
:25:31. > :25:34.chairman. There was not even a requirement to interview at that
:25:35. > :25:38.stage. What we did do was to require that he was interviewed, and that
:25:39. > :25:50.the Co-op should get additional experience. One of the people from
:25:51. > :25:54.the old organisation, who signed up on the promotion of Mr Flowers to
:25:55. > :26:02.become chairman is now a nonexecutive director of the Co-op,
:26:03. > :26:05.so how does that work? Welcome he was a senior adviser to our
:26:06. > :26:09.organisation, one of the people who made the challenges, and who said,
:26:10. > :26:14.you need more experience on your board. Subsequently he then went and
:26:15. > :26:18.joined the board. Surely that should not be allowed, the regulator and
:26:19. > :26:23.the regulated should not be like that. Well clearly, you need
:26:24. > :26:27.protection, but we have got to get good people in, and frankly, we want
:26:28. > :26:30.the industry to have good people in the industry, so there will be some
:26:31. > :26:34.movement between the regulator and industry. We all wonder whether you
:26:35. > :26:39.have the power or even the confidence to stand up if you look
:26:40. > :26:43.at all of the really bad bank decisions recently, politicians were
:26:44. > :26:47.behind them. It was Gordon Brown who pushed the disastrous merger of
:26:48. > :26:51.Lloyds and RBS. It was Alex Salmond who egged on RBS to buy the world.
:26:52. > :26:56.All three main parties wanted the Co-op to buy Britannia, even though
:26:57. > :27:00.they did not know the debt it would inherit, and all three wanted the
:27:01. > :27:05.Co-op to buy the Lloyds branches - how do you as a regulator stand up
:27:06. > :27:10.to that little concert party? Well, that political pressure exists, our
:27:11. > :27:14.job at the end of the day is to do a relatively technical job and say,
:27:15. > :27:18.does it stack up? And it didn't, and we made that point time and time
:27:19. > :27:21.again to the Co-op board. They did not have a business case that we
:27:22. > :27:28.could approve. The bodies on left and right -- the politicians on left
:27:29. > :27:36.and right gave the Co-op special support. They may have done, but
:27:37. > :27:39.that was not you have made a warning about these payday lenders, but I
:27:40. > :27:43.think what most people would like to see is a limit put on the interest
:27:44. > :27:48.they can charge over a period of time - will you do that? We have got
:27:49. > :27:52.a whole set of powers for payday lenders. We will bring in some
:27:53. > :27:56.changes from April next year, and we will bring in further changes as we
:27:57. > :28:00.see necessary. Will you put a limit on the interest they can charge?
:28:01. > :28:05.That is something we can study. You do not sound too keen on it? Well,
:28:06. > :28:10.there are a lot of changes we need to make. One change is limiting
:28:11. > :28:13.rollovers, limiting the use of continuous payment authorities.
:28:14. > :28:19.Simply jumping to one trigger would be a mistake. Finally, an issue
:28:20. > :28:22.which I think is becoming a growing concern, because the Government is
:28:23. > :28:27.thinking of subsidising them, 95% mortgages are back - should we not
:28:28. > :28:30.be worried about that? I think we should if the market has the same
:28:31. > :28:35.experiences that we had back should if the market has the same
:28:36. > :28:40.- oh wait. We are bringing a comprehensive package in under our
:28:41. > :28:43.mortgage market review, which will change how people lend and will put
:28:44. > :28:55.affordability back at the heart of lending decisions. -- 2007-08. You
:28:56. > :28:56.have not had your first big challenge yet, have you? We have
:28:57. > :29:06.many challenges. It was once called the battle of the
:29:07. > :29:07.mods and the rockers - the fight between David Cameron-style
:29:08. > :29:10.modernisers and old-style traditional Tories for the direction
:29:11. > :29:17.and soul of the Conservative Party. But have the mods given up on
:29:18. > :29:23.changing the brand? When David Cameron took over in 2005, he
:29:24. > :29:27.promoted himself as a new Tory leader. He said that hoodies need
:29:28. > :29:33.more love. He was talking about something called the big society. He
:29:34. > :29:38.told his party conference that it was time to that sunshine win the
:29:39. > :29:42.day. There was new emphasis on the environment, and an eye-catching
:29:43. > :29:47.trip to a Norwegian glacier to see first-hand, supposedly, the effects
:29:48. > :29:51.of global warming. This week, party modernise and Nick bone has said
:29:52. > :29:56.that the party is still seen as an old-fashioned monolith and hasn't
:29:57. > :30:05.done enough to improve its appeal. The Tories have put some reforms
:30:06. > :30:09.into practice, such as gay marriage, but they have put more into welfare
:30:10. > :30:13.reform band compassionate conservatism. David Cameron wants
:30:14. > :30:22.talked about leading the greenest government ever. Downing Street says
:30:23. > :30:28.that the quote in the Son is not recognised, get rid of the green
:30:29. > :30:31.crap. At this point in the programme we were expecting to hear from the
:30:32. > :30:34.Energy and Climate Change Minister, Greg Barker. Unfortunately, he has
:30:35. > :30:40.pulled out, with Downing Street saying it's for ""family reasons"".
:30:41. > :30:45.Make of that what you will. However, we won't be deterred. We're still
:30:46. > :30:48.doing the story, and we're joined by our very own mod and rocker - David
:30:49. > :30:54.Skelton of the think-tank Renewal, and Conservative MP Peter Bone.
:30:55. > :30:59.Welcome to you both. I'm glad your family is allowed you to come? David
:31:00. > :31:04.Skelton, getting rid of all the green crap, or words to that effect,
:31:05. > :31:07.that David Cameron has been saying. It is just a sign that Tory
:31:08. > :31:13.modernisation has been quietly buried. I do think that's right.
:31:14. > :31:17.modernisation has been quietly Modernisation is about reaching out
:31:18. > :31:21.to the voters, and the work to do that is now more relevant than ever.
:31:22. > :31:27.We got the biggest swing since 1931, and the thing is we need to do more
:31:28. > :31:33.to reach out to voters in the North. We need to reach out to non-white
:31:34. > :31:39.voters, and show that the concerns of modern Britain and the concerns
:31:40. > :31:43.of ordinary people is something that we share. And what way will racking
:31:44. > :31:48.up electricity bills with green levies get you more votes in the
:31:49. > :31:53.North of England? We have to look at ways to reduce energy bills. The
:31:54. > :31:59.renewable energy directive doesn't do anything to help cut our
:32:00. > :32:01.emissions, but does decrease energy bills by ?45 a year. We should
:32:02. > :32:09.renegotiate that. That is a part of modernisation and doing what
:32:10. > :32:15.ordinarily people want. And old dinosaurs like you are just holding
:32:16. > :32:19.this modernisation process back? I am very appreciative of covering on
:32:20. > :32:23.this programme. The Tory party has been reforming itself for more than
:32:24. > :32:27.150 years. This idea of modern eyes a is just some invention. We are
:32:28. > :32:35.changing all the time. I'm nice and cuddly! So you are happy that the
:32:36. > :32:41.party made gay marriage almost a kind of symbol of its modernisation?
:32:42. > :32:48.Fine Mac the gay marriage was a free vote. David Cameron was recorded as
:32:49. > :32:53.a rebel there because more Tories voted against his position than ever
:32:54. > :32:56.before. It was said that this was a split between the old and
:32:57. > :32:59.before. It was said that this was a it actually was a split between
:33:00. > :33:03.those who were religious and nonreligious. It is a
:33:04. > :33:10.misinterpretation of what happened. Is a modernisation in retreat? I
:33:11. > :33:15.think modernisation is an invention. Seven years ago, in my
:33:16. > :33:22.part of the world, we got three councillors elected, two were 80 and
:33:23. > :33:26.one was 21. A few months ago, a 25-year-old was chosen to fight
:33:27. > :33:31.Corby for the Conservative Party. He came from a comprehensive School. He
:33:32. > :33:37.was one of the youngest. The Tory party is moving on. So you found
:33:38. > :33:47.three young people? Hang on a minute. You can't get away with
:33:48. > :33:49.that. Three in one batch. Does modernisation exist?
:33:50. > :33:53.that. Three in one batch. Does is about watering our appeal and
:33:54. > :33:58.sharing our values are relevant to voters who haven't really thought
:33:59. > :34:01.about voting for us for decades now. Modernisation is about more than
:34:02. > :34:06.windmills and stuff, it is about boosting the life chances of the
:34:07. > :34:12.poorest, it is about putting better schools in poorer areas. It is also
:34:13. > :34:17.saying that modernisation and the Tory party... When has the Tory
:34:18. > :34:22.party been against making poorer people better off? Or against better
:34:23. > :34:26.schools? Do you think Mrs Thatcher was a moderniser when she won all
:34:27. > :34:32.those elections? The problem we have at the moment is that UKIP has
:34:33. > :34:37.grown-up. If we could get all of those people who vote UKIP to vote
:34:38. > :34:41.for us, we would get 47% of the vote. We don't need to worry about
:34:42. > :34:45.voters on the left. We need to worry about the voters in the north, those
:34:46. > :34:54.people who haven't voted for us for decades. Having an EU Referendum
:34:55. > :35:00.Bill is going to get people to vote. We have to reach out to
:35:01. > :35:05.voters, but not by some sort of London based in need. You have to
:35:06. > :35:09.broaden your base. I agree with you on that. We have to broaden our
:35:10. > :35:14.appeal, but this back to the future concept is not going to work. We
:35:15. > :35:18.need something that generally appeals to low and middle-income
:35:19. > :35:23.voters, and something that shows we genuinely care about the life
:35:24. > :35:31.chances of the poorest. Do you think that the people who vote UKIP don't
:35:32. > :35:33.support those aspirations? We are not doing enough to cut immigration.
:35:34. > :35:37.support those aspirations? We are We don't have an EU Referendum Bill
:35:38. > :35:44.stop we have to get the centre right to vote for us again. Do that, and
:35:45. > :35:48.we have it. Tom Pursglove, the 25 euros, will be returned in Corby
:35:49. > :36:01.because we cannot win an election there. -- the 25-year-old. Whether
:36:02. > :36:07.you are moderniser or traditionalist, people, particularly
:36:08. > :36:15.in the North, see you as a bunch of rich men. And rich southerners. You
:36:16. > :36:19.are bunch of rich southerners. We need to do more to show that we are
:36:20. > :36:26.building on lifting the poorest out of the tax. We need to build more
:36:27. > :36:32.houses. There is a perception that the leadership at the moment is
:36:33. > :36:36.rich, and public school educated. What we have to do is get more
:36:37. > :36:42.people from state education into the top. You are going the other way at
:36:43. > :36:51.the moment. That is a fair criticism. Modernisers also say
:36:52. > :36:56.that. I went to a combo hedge of school as well. -- do a
:36:57. > :37:06.comprehensive school. We need to show that we are standing up for low
:37:07. > :37:10.income. Thank Q, both of you. You are watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:11. > :37:17.Coming up in just under 20 minutes, I
:37:18. > :38:04.Hello, and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. Peter
:38:05. > :38:08.Robinson's critics might speculate about his future as leader and who
:38:09. > :38:11.will succeed him. We'll hear from the the DUP
:38:12. > :38:13.will succeed him. We'll hear from Minister on his plans to carry on
:38:14. > :38:17.doing what he calls his "duty". And they may be minnows in the Assembly
:38:18. > :38:21.with just one MLA, but they've big plans to build on their numbers
:38:22. > :38:24.here. We'll have a special report from the UKIP conference. Joining me
:38:25. > :38:27.to discuss that and more are PR consultant Sheila Davidson and
:38:28. > :38:30.journalist and commentator Steven Mc Caffery. The DUP has been the
:38:31. > :38:33.largest political party here for ten years - a milestone it was keen to
:38:34. > :38:37.celebrate at its weekend conference. The party faithful were told that to
:38:38. > :38:40.build on that success, unionism is at its best when it's open and
:38:41. > :38:43.inviting, not narrow and exclusive. With a senior Catholic priest
:38:44. > :38:45.invited to take part in the conference, our Political
:38:46. > :40:24.Correspondent, Martina Purdy, went along to find out more.
:40:25. > :40:34.I think it is slim in the short term. One catholic told me he was
:40:35. > :40:39.voting for the D U P and was doing it to move into teachers about
:40:40. > :40:43.abortion. One catholic priest who made history by taking part in a
:40:44. > :40:47.diversity debate had its own reservations. Does it present a more
:40:48. > :40:52.confident sense of unionism and the better thing for society if you can
:40:53. > :41:01.avoid any sense of sectarianism, then I think there will be Catholics
:41:02. > :41:04.who will find in the DUP, the policies are social and moral
:41:05. > :41:07.policies on abortion and same-sex marriage who might be inclined to
:41:08. > :41:14.vote for them. Conference delegates were open to the idea. We have held
:41:15. > :41:22.events were catholic people have come along to it. I think the
:41:23. > :41:25.hardline nationalist areas, it's hard to break him, but for the more
:41:26. > :41:35.moderate people are more open to discussion and moving on, then yes,
:41:36. > :41:40.there can be more voters. Sammy Wilson joked that change might be in
:41:41. > :41:47.the air. Look at that. Can't you have it in green, white and gold?
:41:48. > :41:56.There is one thing the DUP that are very serious about.
:41:57. > :42:01.Well Peter Robinson isn't able to join us live on Sunday Politics this
:42:02. > :42:05.morning, but immediately after his speech Mr Robinson did talk to me. I
:42:06. > :42:09.started off by asking him about the forthcoming European Election. As we
:42:10. > :42:12.heard in Martina's report the party still has to decide if it will run a
:42:13. > :42:16.second candidate alongside its current MEP, Diane Dodds. I put it
:42:17. > :42:18.to Mr Robinson that running another DUP candidate is potentially a very
:42:19. > :42:22.risky strategy. There are strong voices in the party, it has to be
:42:23. > :42:25.said, who want to put in a second candidate. But for me it always has
:42:26. > :42:30.to be about whether we can win the two seats for unionism, and will it
:42:31. > :42:32.be a better opportunity to have two Democratic Unionist party
:42:33. > :42:34.candidates, or whether other party should have a
:42:35. > :42:37.candidates, or whether other party rather than have a mother
:42:38. > :42:41.nationalist or Republican getting elected. Over the next few weeks and
:42:42. > :42:46.months we will talk to the members of the party to see what the best
:42:47. > :42:50.strategy will be. Do you accept it is risky? There is the potential
:42:51. > :42:56.with a second candidate to further shred the Unionist vote and perhaps
:42:57. > :43:00.restrict Unionist representation to just one seat and allow the SDLP and
:43:01. > :43:06.Sinn Fein to take the others. That has to be a real risk. That is a
:43:07. > :43:14.risk on one side, but the risk on the other is that the last opinion
:43:15. > :43:21.poll showed that the UUP was down to 10%, and you need 25% to get a
:43:22. > :43:24.European seat. Do we risk leaving it as they are capable of winning a
:43:25. > :43:28.seat, or do we take a decision to run a second? There is a risk
:43:29. > :43:33.whichever way we do it. We have to take whatever is the most likely
:43:34. > :43:37.outcome to get the Unionists to return. You said today unionism was
:43:38. > :43:43.its best when it was not narrow and exclusive. Are there some people in
:43:44. > :43:50.the DUP who, frankly, either don't know what you mean by that might
:43:51. > :43:54.even disagree? I think there are very few who will not know what I
:43:55. > :43:58.mean. I think the issue is that we have come from a very difficult and
:43:59. > :44:02.entrenched position, coming through decades of violence in Northern
:44:03. > :44:07.Ireland. Therefore it is difficult for people to leave behind the
:44:08. > :44:11.baggage of those difficult years and two move forward and be embracing
:44:12. > :44:15.and encouraging, but I think that's the way forward for Northern Ireland
:44:16. > :44:17.-- to move forward. The opinion polls had a third of the community
:44:18. > :44:20.wanting to have a united Ireland. polls had a third of the community
:44:21. > :44:26.Sinn Fein could barely get a majority on its own support base, so
:44:27. > :44:31.people want to remain in the UK which allows us to look at a wider
:44:32. > :44:35.rising. You were -- wider horizon. You were clear earlier in the week
:44:36. > :44:41.that John Larkin was wrong to raise the debate and draw a line under the
:44:42. > :44:49.pre-1998 troubles and their related crimes. Is it not the case though
:44:50. > :44:53.the politicians are allowing victims to be the arbiters of public policy,
:44:54. > :44:58.and what John Larkin was at least doing was allowing space for a
:44:59. > :45:03.serious debate to take place. I think before anybody wants to
:45:04. > :45:07.comment on those matters they should do the kind of thing I did a number
:45:08. > :45:13.of days ago. I went down and spoke to the victims, and here we were,
:45:14. > :45:16.of days ago. I went down and spoke ten, 20, 30, 40 years after some
:45:17. > :45:21.have them had lost their loved ones and the tears were still flowing.
:45:22. > :45:24.They were still hurting. They still felt that people were not giving
:45:25. > :45:28.them the justice or truth that they needed. I believe we do need to have
:45:29. > :45:34.a big Tim Centre approach to the future. -- victims centred. It means
:45:35. > :45:38.that we bring victims along, allow them to be the centre of the
:45:39. > :45:42.progress in Northern Ireland, but to recognise the very real hurt that
:45:43. > :45:46.they have the entitlement they have had to keep open the hope that
:45:47. > :45:50.ultimately justice will be done. How do you think you can realise your
:45:51. > :45:55.vision for a more inclusive society when the relationships at the heart
:45:56. > :46:01.of the executives and government between Sinn Fein and the DUP looks
:46:02. > :46:05.so very toxic at the moment? There is a tendency on the part of the
:46:06. > :46:11.press and the media to accentuate any difficulties we have in the
:46:12. > :46:15.process. We have taken almost 1000 decisions as an executive. There is
:46:16. > :46:19.only a handful of those that have ever caused division in the
:46:20. > :46:22.executive. But that is a handful that you guys always concentrate on,
:46:23. > :46:26.instead of showing the positive things that are done, all the
:46:27. > :46:29.agreements made, all the achievements we have made. The
:46:30. > :46:34.progress that is there. Let's get our priorities right and get some
:46:35. > :46:40.perspective on what we're doing. The executive is a very successful. And
:46:41. > :46:48.I hope that the BBC, amongst others, will be prepared to publish the kind
:46:49. > :46:51.of list that the DUP has published today to let people see what has
:46:52. > :46:54.been achieved in their name and see that not only the DUP, but the
:46:55. > :46:59.executive as a whole is delivering. Some of that might be the case, but
:47:00. > :47:02.with respect, the disagreements between you and Martin McGuinness
:47:03. > :47:06.and others in the executives tend to be about fundamental issues, which
:47:07. > :47:14.is why people are so interested in them and how you intend to resolve
:47:15. > :47:16.them. You can't just wish that away. When we take 1000 decisions and you
:47:17. > :47:23.find difficulty with one two, the first thing you need to have is some
:47:24. > :47:27.focus on the successive -- successes. You never mention them,
:47:28. > :47:30.you move on the areas with problems. Of course there are problems, we
:47:31. > :47:34.come from different backgrounds and we have had decades of division and
:47:35. > :47:37.conflict in Northern Ireland so of course there are difficulties to
:47:38. > :47:40.overcome. But one thing we consistently do is that where there
:47:41. > :47:46.are difficulties we keep working on them until we resolve them. Let's
:47:47. > :47:48.look at the key issues like flags, parades, the past,
:47:49. > :47:53.look at the key issues like flags, Richard Haass who was invited by the
:47:54. > :47:58.media, it was you and Martin McGuinness. And why did we do it?
:47:59. > :48:05.Because where there are real problems we keep that the matter. We
:48:06. > :48:09.have agreed everything in the good relations strategy with the
:48:10. > :48:13.exception of those three issues, and we did not say we could not get them
:48:14. > :48:18.resolve, we said we could bring in outside facilitation to help unravel
:48:19. > :48:22.the areas of difference again, so we continue to work at those matters
:48:23. > :48:24.which are outstanding, which is the way forward in Northern Ireland.
:48:25. > :48:30.Recognise the difficulties, but keep working to resolve them. Just a
:48:31. > :48:34.final thought about next week's flag protest in the centre of Belfast.
:48:35. > :48:38.What is your definitive position on what should happen, and what the
:48:39. > :48:45.pitfalls potentially are for people taking part? I think we are past the
:48:46. > :48:49.stage because the parades commission have indicated they are giving
:48:50. > :48:54.permission. All I would ask the organisers to do, and as people who
:48:55. > :48:57.want to see Northern Ireland succeeding, who don't want to damage
:48:58. > :49:02.the Northern Irish economy, I asked them to carry out the protest, which
:49:03. > :49:05.is a legitimate right, to show that one year on they are still opposed
:49:06. > :49:10.to the flags decision of Belfast City Council, but I ask them have
:49:11. > :49:15.their protest that does the least possible damage to the traders of
:49:16. > :49:18.Belfast. You looks like you were enjoying yourself during the speech.
:49:19. > :49:22.Commentators might say you have had a tough time over the last year or
:49:23. > :49:28.two. Are you back on top of your game? The party has always been
:49:29. > :49:31.supportive. There is a tendency on the part of the media to look at the
:49:32. > :49:36.Democratic Unionist party as if it is just any other political party.
:49:37. > :49:40.It is not. It is a very special creation. It is a family more than a
:49:41. > :49:44.political party. You do not have the backstabbing and so forth in -- like
:49:45. > :49:48.another political support -- parties. We have a lot of support,
:49:49. > :49:56.we have a good relationship. The fact I am endorsed unanimously by
:49:57. > :49:59.the executive shows a degree of support and the collective do --
:50:00. > :50:03.connectivity and unity in the party as a whole. Peter Robinson talking
:50:04. > :50:05.to me yesterday. Let's hear now from my guests public relations
:50:06. > :50:08.consultant Sheila Davidson and journalist Steven McCaffery. Steven
:50:09. > :50:15.and Sheila were both at the DUP Conference. Looking from the studio
:50:16. > :50:21.here, it looked fairly slick affair. Was it like that on the ground? It
:50:22. > :50:25.certainly was a slick affair, very well choreographed and there was a
:50:26. > :50:30.very genuine support in the audience. But I was interested
:50:31. > :50:33.very genuine support in the see Peter Robinson talking for
:50:34. > :50:35.however long it was about all the negativity when you had given him
:50:36. > :50:40.every opportunity to talk about all the positives they did produce
:50:41. > :50:43.there. They brought out the two documents which will be interesting
:50:44. > :50:47.to see if they appear as an insert in the Belfast Telegraph Tom paid
:50:48. > :50:53.for by the party policy people, but they had an opportunity, an
:50:54. > :50:56.opportunity to articulate the positives but he still kept talking
:50:57. > :51:00.about the negatives and going back to the old ways. I would love to
:51:01. > :51:06.have seen the kind of positivity that was in the speech reflected
:51:07. > :51:10.back in the interview that happened, because no one is going to listen to
:51:11. > :51:14.that speech for its entirety, but what they will look at is the media
:51:15. > :51:17.output from it. And there needs to be some coordination between that
:51:18. > :51:18.confidence in the speech and the confidence in terms of how they are
:51:19. > :51:23.putting forward the confidence in terms of how they are
:51:24. > :51:27.says they have achieved. Stephen, you were there, what did you make of
:51:28. > :51:30.the idea that it was the fault of the media for not focusing on the
:51:31. > :51:33.positives because the negative things are small in number? But they
:51:34. > :51:38.are important, and that was the point I made. There may not be as
:51:39. > :51:43.many of them, but flags and parades are what people need to see
:51:44. > :51:47.resolved. Absolutely. It's no accident that the American
:51:48. > :51:51.government in the last 12 months have re-engaged substantially in the
:51:52. > :51:57.peace process, that speaks volumes where things are at. I thought the
:51:58. > :52:02.speech was very impressive. Very professional. When you seek other
:52:03. > :52:06.leaders shuffling bits of paper and staring down at their notes, this
:52:07. > :52:11.was a political leader who addressed his audience, was using the
:52:12. > :52:16.autocue. A very positive speech as well. I felt it was a single issue
:52:17. > :52:21.speech though, all about confidence. It was essentially a pep talk of the
:52:22. > :52:26.party after a difficult year. With the European election, how big a
:52:27. > :52:29.debate is that, for them to run or not run a second candidate? It's
:52:30. > :52:33.been kicking around a long time that they think they have the numbers in
:52:34. > :52:38.the party to put up a second candidate, but it's hard to resist
:52:39. > :52:44.this -- the conclusion that they are dangling the possibility of a deal.
:52:45. > :52:48.Peter union -- Peter Robinson saying Unionism at its best when it's open
:52:49. > :52:52.and inviting, not exclusive, that was presumably meant for the hall,
:52:53. > :52:56.but also people outside. Do you think it will strike a chord with
:52:57. > :53:03.the ball populace? I think it will -- broader populace. I think people
:53:04. > :53:05.recognise that the DUP is the biggest Unionist party and they want
:53:06. > :53:09.them to reflect the ones that they biggest Unionist party and they want
:53:10. > :53:13.will engage with and if they vote, they can carry forward. We will talk
:53:14. > :53:20.to you later in the programme, but for now, thank you very much. . The
:53:21. > :53:23.DUP wasn't the only party to hold a conference this weekend. At the
:53:24. > :53:25.Stormont Hotel, local members of the UK Independence Party came together.
:53:26. > :53:29.Membership of the eurosceptic party has been growing here - and UKIP
:53:30. > :53:31.believes it can achieve success in elections to the European
:53:32. > :53:38.Parliament, councils, and Stormont. Chris Page reports.
:53:39. > :53:46.Once an Ulster Unionist, David McNarry now leads a branch of the
:53:47. > :53:49.party surging. There, UKIP has attracted thousands of former
:53:50. > :53:53.Conservative voters. Given that the Tory vote is small though, how will
:53:54. > :53:57.UKIP grow support in Northern Ireland? We are growing because of
:53:58. > :54:02.the effect of the Unionist, and people who would vote Unionist
:54:03. > :54:06.naturally are fed up with the lack of politics and the poverty of
:54:07. > :54:11.politics there is. But it is across the board also. There are people
:54:12. > :54:14.from a nationalist background at the conference today, belonging to the
:54:15. > :54:18.party. They are just as fed up with what they are getting, which is
:54:19. > :54:23.nothing. At the moment, David McNarry's is the only UKIP member of
:54:24. > :54:26.the assembly and the party has just one councillor here, but the members
:54:27. > :54:32.gathering for their conference over their belief that UKIP is only roll
:54:33. > :54:37.across the UK, and they think the party is well placed to benefit in
:54:38. > :54:41.Northern Ireland -- on a roll. This council is running in the European
:54:42. > :54:45.Parliament next year -- councillor is running. He is upbeat about his
:54:46. > :54:50.chances and thinks in 2016 UKIP could win several seats in
:54:51. > :54:57.Stormont. I really think we can do it. In my constituency in Southdown,
:54:58. > :55:03.and in North Down, those constituencies where we can return.
:55:04. > :55:08.This MEP thinks the flagship policy of withdrawing from the European
:55:09. > :55:11.Union is a crucial part of the electoral strategy. Because we are
:55:12. > :55:14.not in the European Union and we don't have to follow the energy
:55:15. > :55:17.policy and the agricultural policy. We don't have to have the fisheries
:55:18. > :55:22.run by the European Union. All of these things mean you can be
:55:23. > :55:25.different, genuinely different. Whether that chimes with the voters
:55:26. > :55:27.here will become clear when the party is tested at the polls in the
:55:28. > :55:36.spring. Sheila and Steven are still with me.
:55:37. > :55:40.A much more modest affair than the DUP conference, but do you think
:55:41. > :55:42.UKIP has a future in Northern Irish politics? If you look at the other
:55:43. > :55:46.parties who have politics? If you look at the other
:55:47. > :55:50.Sea and tried to plant a flag, mostly the Conservatives with a huge
:55:51. > :55:54.resources, basically weren't able to, so for that reason I think it
:55:55. > :55:57.will be difficult. I don't think the European issue has the same
:55:58. > :56:03.traction. We have a different relationship with Europe than
:56:04. > :56:05.perhaps the farming and wider community might have in England,
:56:06. > :56:09.Scotland and Wales. I think they will struggle but they do have a
:56:10. > :56:14.seasoned campaigner at the four with David McNarry, who is obviously a
:56:15. > :56:20.strong -- strongly supported politician. Where could you could
:56:21. > :56:26.potentially pick up any votes? I'm not sure that they are -- where
:56:27. > :56:30.could UKIP? If we are in a situation with the protest was open to them,
:56:31. > :56:33.maybe they might pick up some on that basis. I think a lot of the
:56:34. > :56:41.parties are putting people forward. The SDLP, and Jim Nicholson as the
:56:42. > :56:46.old warhorse for the UUP, I think the political parties are taking the
:56:47. > :56:49.European elections very seriously in terms of positioning themselves for
:56:50. > :56:54.the council elections, and then the elections for Stormont later. I
:56:55. > :56:57.think the idea that they will just pick up votes is not necessarily
:56:58. > :57:03.going to work out for them. Unless they bring in Nigel Farage and have
:57:04. > :57:06.the big national personality vote that might come along with that. But
:57:07. > :57:10.I don't think it's going to be enough to make a difference. If the
:57:11. > :57:16.DUP are questioning if they can pick up two seats, I doubt that UKIP will
:57:17. > :57:19.make any big inroads. It is certainly building up to being a
:57:20. > :57:21.fascinating election battle as far as the European elections are
:57:22. > :57:24.concerned. Let's pause now for a look at the week in 60 seconds with
:57:25. > :57:34.Martina Purdy. The Attorney General John Larkin
:57:35. > :57:41.provoked a week of political debate with this proposal. The time has
:57:42. > :57:47.come to think about drawing a line, set at Good Friday, 1998, with
:57:48. > :57:51.respect to prosecutions. As somebody who represents the law and the rule
:57:52. > :57:55.of law, I think to suggest that kind of amnesty process has actually
:57:56. > :58:02.undermined his credibility. And once again, the MLAs are told to mind
:58:03. > :58:05.their language. I cannot allow members to make those contributions
:58:06. > :58:11.and be so offensive that it is unbelievable. Alan Reid, who acted
:58:12. > :58:16.as a conduit between Republicans and the government in the peace process,
:58:17. > :58:18.has passed away. Reports say policing the past will cost ?190
:58:19. > :58:29.million over the next five years. policing the past will cost ?190
:58:30. > :58:30.And a laugh raised in the assembly. Physical powers, fiscal powers,
:58:31. > :58:41.sorry. Let's have a final chat with Sheila
:58:42. > :58:46.Davidson and Steven Mc Caffery. Stephen, we have the death announced
:58:47. > :58:52.on Friday father Alex Reid who made a huge contribution to the peace
:58:53. > :58:55.process. Absolutely, and when the pain of victims has been at the
:58:56. > :58:58.front of political life here, his passing was a reminder of what we
:58:59. > :59:06.have achieved in the past and what we can achieve in the future.
:59:07. > :59:10.Individuals like Father read skate the troubles, and perhaps with the
:59:11. > :59:14.right commitment we can escape the shadows of the trouble -- father
:59:15. > :59:22.read escaped the troubles. Lamented by many people, including the First
:59:23. > :59:25.Minister. Absolutely. We can never get away from the image of him
:59:26. > :59:31.kneeling beside the soldiers, giving them the last rites of the kiss of
:59:32. > :59:36.life, doing what he could, and if ever there was a personification of
:59:37. > :59:38.how the church or any of the churches can do something positive
:59:39. > :59:45.in terms of bringing people together, then I think it was with
:59:46. > :59:52.him. Just a final sentence on Richard Haass. Notable that he was
:59:53. > :59:56.not mentioned at all in the speed from Peter Robinson, but the issues
:59:57. > :00:03.are there, so that is where the agenda goes. Sheila, positive? I
:00:04. > :00:09.think we are being managed about the expectations that will come out of
:00:10. > :00:11.Haas, and there needs to be that caution. That's it
:00:12. > :00:22.those people who want to cycle. We will be returning to this one. Thank
:00:23. > :00:29.A little bit of history was made at Prime Minister's Questions this
:00:30. > :00:31.week. A teensy tiny bit. It wasn't David Cameron accusing one MP of
:00:32. > :00:34.taking "mind-altering substances" - they're always accusing each other
:00:35. > :00:38.of doing that. No, it was the first time a Prime Minister used a live
:00:39. > :00:47.tweet sent from someone watching the session as ammunition at the
:00:48. > :00:52.dispatch box. Let's have a look. We have had some interesting
:00:53. > :00:55.interventions from front edges past and present. I hope I can break
:00:56. > :00:58.records by explaining that a tweet has just come in from Tony McNulty,
:00:59. > :01:02.the former Labour has just come in from Tony McNulty,
:01:03. > :01:07.minister, saying that the public are desperate for a PM in waiting who
:01:08. > :01:12.speaks for them, not a Leader of the Opposition in dodging in partisan
:01:13. > :01:16.Westminster Village knock about. So I would stay up with the tweets if
:01:17. > :01:21.you want to get on the right side of this one! We are working on how the
:01:22. > :01:25.Prime Minister managed to get that wheat in the first place. What did
:01:26. > :01:32.you think when you saw it being read out? I was certainly watching the
:01:33. > :01:36.Daily Politics. I almost fell off my chair! It was quite astonishing. He
:01:37. > :01:41.didn't answer the question - he didn't do that the whole time. But I
:01:42. > :01:46.stand by what the tweets said. I have tweeted for a long time on
:01:47. > :01:52.PMQs. Normally I am praising Ed Miliband to the hilt, but no one
:01:53. > :01:54.announces that in Parliament! Because the
:01:55. > :01:59.announces that in Parliament! on what you said, it unleashed some
:02:00. > :02:03.attacks on you from the Labour side. It did, minor attacks from some very
:02:04. > :02:07.junior people. Most people were supportive of what I said. They took
:02:08. > :02:15.issue with the notion of not doing it until 12:30pm, when it wasn't
:02:16. > :02:19.available for the other side to use. Instant history, and instantly
:02:20. > :02:24.forgettable, I would say. Do you think you have started a bit of a
:02:25. > :02:30.trend? I hope not, because the dumbing down of PMQs is already on
:02:31. > :02:38.its way. Most people tweet like mad through PMQs! Is a measure of how
:02:39. > :02:42.post-modern we have become, we have journalists tweeting about someone
:02:43. > :02:47.talking about a tweet. That is the level of British politics. I am
:02:48. > :02:51.horrified by this development. The whole of modern life has become
:02:52. > :02:59.about observing people -- people observing themselves doing things.
:03:00. > :03:02.Do we know what happened? Somebody is monitoring the tweets on behalf
:03:03. > :03:07.of the Prime Minister or the Tory party. They see Tony's tweet. They
:03:08. > :03:12.then print it out and give it to him? There was a suggestion that
:03:13. > :03:22.Michael Goves had spotted it, but Craig Oliver from the BBC had this
:03:23. > :03:26.great sort of... Craig Oliver was holding up his iPad to take pictures
:03:27. > :03:30.of the Prime Minister, which he then tweeted, from the Prime Minister.
:03:31. > :03:35.People will now be tweeting in the hope that they will be quoted by the
:03:36. > :03:38.Prime Minister, or the Leader of the Opposition. I wasn't doing that.
:03:39. > :03:44.Prime Minister, or the Leader of the just talking about the monster you
:03:45. > :03:49.have unleashed! I hope it dies a miserable death. I think Tony is a
:03:50. > :03:59.good analysis -- a good analyst of PMQs on Twitter. Moving onto the
:04:00. > :04:07.Co-op. You were a Co-op-backed MP, white you? I was a Co-op party
:04:08. > :04:11.member. There are two issues here about the Co-op and the Labour
:04:12. > :04:16.Party. All the new music suggests that the Co-op will now have to
:04:17. > :04:21.start pulling back from lending or donating to the Labour Party, which,
:04:22. > :04:24.at a time when Mr Miliband is going through changes that are going to
:04:25. > :04:30.cut of the union funds, it seems quite dangerous. There are three
:04:31. > :04:31.things going on. There's the relationship that the
:04:32. > :04:36.things going on. There's the politically with the Co-op party,
:04:37. > :04:42.there is the commercial relationship you referred to, and then there is
:04:43. > :04:47.this enquiry into the comings and goings of Flowers and everybody
:04:48. > :04:53.else. The Tories, at their peril, will mix the three up. There's a lot
:04:54. > :04:58.of things going on with a bang. Labour has some issues around
:04:59. > :05:05.funding generally, and they are potentially exacerbated by the Co-op
:05:06. > :05:11.issue. The Labour Party gets soft loans from the Co-op bank, and it
:05:12. > :05:17.gets donations. ?800,000 last year. Ed Balls got about ?50,000 for his
:05:18. > :05:19.private office. You get the feeling, given the state of the Co-operative
:05:20. > :05:26.Bank now, that that money could dry up. We will see. There's lots of
:05:27. > :05:30.speculation in the papers today. At the core, the relationship between
:05:31. > :05:35.the Co-op party and the Labour Party is a proud one, and a legitimate
:05:36. > :05:40.one. I don't think others always understand that. Here is an even
:05:41. > :05:48.bigger issue. Is it not possible that the Co-op bank will cease to
:05:49. > :05:57.exist in any meaningful way as a Co-op bank? Is the bane out means it
:05:58. > :06:04.is 70% owned -- the bail out means that it is 70% owned, or 35% going
:06:05. > :06:09.to a hedge fund, I think I read. Yes, there is a move from the
:06:10. > :06:17.mutualism of the Co-op. But don't confuse the Co-op bank with the
:06:18. > :06:23.Co-op Group. Others have done that. I haven't. Here's the rub. The soft
:06:24. > :06:37.loans that Labour gets. They got ?1.2 million from this. And 2.4
:06:38. > :06:41.million. They are secured against future union membership fees of the
:06:42. > :06:46.party. What is Mr Miliband doing? He is trying to end that? You have this
:06:47. > :06:52.very difficult confluence of events, which is, could these wonderful soft
:06:53. > :06:57.loans that Labour has had from the Co-op, could they be going? And
:06:58. > :07:01.these union reforms, where Ed Miliband is trying to create a link
:07:02. > :07:05.between individuals and donations to the Labour Party... Clearly, there
:07:06. > :07:09.could be real financial difficulties here. The government
:07:10. > :07:13.careful, because George Osborne launched one of his classic
:07:14. > :07:17.blunderbuss operations this week, which is that the Labour Party is to
:07:18. > :07:27.blame for Paul Flowers' private life. No, it's not. And that all the
:07:28. > :07:31.problems, essentially... Look at what George Osborne was doing in
:07:32. > :07:35.Europe. He was trying to change the capital requirement rules that would
:07:36. > :07:39.make it easier for the Co-op to take over Lloyd's. If there is to be a
:07:40. > :07:44.big investigation, George Osborne needs to be careful of what he
:07:45. > :07:48.wishes for. This is another example of the Westminster consensus. All of
:07:49. > :07:51.the Westminster parties were in favour of the Britannia takeover.
:07:52. > :07:56.This is how the Co-op ended up with all this toxic rubbish on its
:07:57. > :07:58.balance sheet. All the major parties were in favour of going to get the
:07:59. > :08:02.Lloyds branches. The Tories tried to were in favour of going to get the
:08:03. > :08:10.outdo Labour in being more pro-Co-op. There was nobody in
:08:11. > :08:15.Westminster saying, hold on, this doesn't work. It is like the
:08:16. > :08:20.financial bubble all over again. Everyone was in favour of that at
:08:21. > :08:24.the time. I think there is no evidence so far that the storm is
:08:25. > :08:29.cutting through to the average voter. If I were Ed Miliband, I
:08:30. > :08:33.would let it die a natural death. I would not write to an editorial
:08:34. > :08:39.column for a national newspaper on a Sunday. That keeps the issue alive,
:08:40. > :08:47.and it makes him look oversensitive and much better at dishing it out
:08:48. > :08:50.than taking it. I agree about that. The Labour press team tweeted this
:08:51. > :09:00.week saying that it was a new low for the times. And this was
:09:01. > :09:06.re-tweeted by Ed Miliband. It isn't a great press attitude. It is very
:09:07. > :09:11.Moni. Bill Clinton went out there and fought and made the case. So did
:09:12. > :09:18.Tony Blair. If you just say, they are being horrible to us, it looks
:09:19. > :09:23.pathetic. And it will cut through on Osborne and the financial
:09:24. > :09:32.dimensional is, not political. I shall tweet that later! While we
:09:33. > :09:38.have been talking, Mr Miliband has been on Desert Island Discs. He
:09:39. > :09:49.might still be on it. Let's have a listen to what he had to say.
:09:50. > :09:58.# Take on me, take me on. # And threw it all, she offers me
:09:59. > :10:10.protection. # A lot of love and affection.
:10:11. > :10:25.# Whether I'm right or wrong #. # Je Ne Regrette Rien. #.
:10:26. > :10:31.Obviously, that was the music that Ed Miliband chose. Who thought --
:10:32. > :10:41.you would have thought he would choose Norman Lamont's theme tune!
:10:42. > :10:52.He chose Jerusalem... He has no classical background at all. He had
:10:53. > :11:00.no Beethoven, no Elgar. David Cameron had Mendelssohn. And Ernie,
:11:01. > :11:11.the fastest Notman in the West. -- fastest milkman. Tony Blair chose
:11:12. > :11:14.the theme tune to a movie. Tony Blair's list was chosen by young
:11:15. > :11:24.staffers in his office. It absolutely was. Tony Blair's list
:11:25. > :11:28.was chosen by staff. The Ed Miliband this was clearly chosen by himself,
:11:29. > :11:38.because who would allow politician to go out there and say that they
:11:39. > :11:42.like Aha. I am the same age as Ed Miliband, and of course he likes
:11:43. > :11:54.Aha. That was the tumour was played in the 80s. Sweet Caroline. It is
:11:55. > :12:02.Angels by Robbie Williams. I was 14-year-old girl when that came out.
:12:03. > :12:09.I thought Angels was the staple of hen nights and chucking out time in
:12:10. > :12:13.pubs. The really good thing about his list is that the Smiths to not
:12:14. > :12:18.appear. The Smiths were all over David Cameron's list. The absolutely
:12:19. > :12:26.miserable music of Morris he was not there. What was his luxury?
:12:27. > :12:29.miserable music of Morris he was not Indian takeaway! Again, chosen for
:12:30. > :12:39.political reasons. I would agree with the panel about Aha, but I
:12:40. > :12:44.would expect -- I would respect his right to choose. Have you been on
:12:45. > :12:47.Desert Island Discs? I have. It took me three weeks to choose the music.
:12:48. > :12:53.It was the most difficult decision in my life. What was the most
:12:54. > :12:58.embarrassing thing you chose? I didn't choose anything embarrassing.
:12:59. > :13:11.I chose Beethoven, Elgar, and some proper modern jazz. Anything from
:13:12. > :13:14.the modern era? Pet Shop Boys. That's all for today. The Daily
:13:15. > :13:17.Politics will be on BBC That's all for today. The Daily
:13:18. > :13:20.lunchtime every day next week, and we'll be back here on BBC One at
:13:21. > :13:23.11am next week. My luxury, by the way, was a wind-up radio! Remember,
:13:24. > :13:31.if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.