25/02/2018

0:00:36 > 0:00:40Morning everyone, I'm Sarah Smith and and this

0:00:40 > 0:00:41is the Sunday Politics...

0:00:41 > 0:00:44Bringing you up to speed on all the political comings and goings

0:00:44 > 0:00:45in Westminster and beyond.

0:00:45 > 0:00:49Coming up in today's programme:

0:00:49 > 0:00:51Having knocked Cabinet heads together Theresa May

0:00:51 > 0:00:54prepares - finally - to lay out her vision for Brexit.

0:00:54 > 0:00:56But can she keep her whole party on side?

0:00:56 > 0:00:58We'll be speaking to a former Tory leader.

0:00:58 > 0:01:02Waiting in the wings is this man.

0:01:02 > 0:01:05But can Jeremy Corbyn unite the opposing forces in his own party

0:01:05 > 0:01:08and convince the electorate he'd do a better job of Brexit?

0:01:08 > 0:01:11The forthcoming local elections in England ought to give us

0:01:11 > 0:01:14a clue about the fortunes of the two main parties.

0:01:14 > 0:01:17We'll be previewing these crucial council contests.

0:01:17 > 0:01:19In London, the Government blames the Mayor, the Mayor

0:01:19 > 0:01:21Coming up here - Claim and counter claim

0:01:21 > 0:01:23about what was agreed at the talks.

0:01:23 > 0:01:25The latest twist - an apparent side deal to put legacy

0:01:25 > 0:01:27issues out to consultation.

0:01:27 > 0:01:34We'll hear live from the Victims' Commissioner.

0:01:34 > 0:01:39All that coming up in the programme.

0:01:39 > 0:01:42And as usual, we've got three Westminster insiders who will take

0:01:42 > 0:01:45us behind the headlines and tell us what's really going on.

0:01:45 > 0:01:47Today I'm joined by Iain Dale, Kate McCann and Steve Richards.

0:01:47 > 0:01:50Next month, Theresa May will begin formal negotiations

0:01:50 > 0:01:53with her European counterparts on what the future EU-UK

0:01:53 > 0:01:56relationship should look like.

0:01:56 > 0:02:01This week, she will lay out her vision of life after Brexit

0:02:01 > 0:02:04and she'll declare that our "best days really do lie ahead of us".

0:02:04 > 0:02:07EU leaders beg to differ though, and have already taken

0:02:07 > 0:02:08some pre-emptive swipes.

0:02:08 > 0:02:10But, while the talk is likely to get tough in Brussels,

0:02:10 > 0:02:13the key battles could be played out closer to home.

0:02:14 > 0:02:18It's known as the Brexit war committee, but the smiles suggested

0:02:18 > 0:02:21an outbreak of peace among the Cabinet's big beasts.

0:02:21 > 0:02:24For now, at least.

0:02:25 > 0:02:28They'd arrived at Chequers, the Prime Minister's country

0:02:28 > 0:02:31retreat, on Thursday afternoon, to try and agree a common position

0:02:31 > 0:02:33for the next round of Brexit talks.

0:02:34 > 0:02:40Eight hours later, ministers were apparently still smiling,

0:02:40 > 0:02:42having agreed on something called ambitious managed divergences

0:02:42 > 0:02:44and future trade with the EU.

0:02:44 > 0:02:47One of those present said the Prime Minister

0:02:47 > 0:02:49had played a blinder, but will it be enough to hold

0:02:49 > 0:02:51the whole party together?

0:02:51 > 0:02:54Earlier in the week, a letter from the pro-Brexit

0:02:54 > 0:02:59European reform group found its way into the newspapers,

0:02:59 > 0:03:01politely reminding the Prime Minister that when we leave,

0:03:01 > 0:03:06nothing but full regulatory autonomy will be good enough.

0:03:06 > 0:03:08But it's Remain-minded Tories who could throw a real

0:03:08 > 0:03:09spanner in the works.

0:03:09 > 0:03:17Conservative MP Anna Soubry announced on Thursday she had...

0:03:21 > 0:03:24"Tabled a new amendment to the trade bill to force the government to form

0:03:24 > 0:03:25a customs union with the EU".

0:03:25 > 0:03:2827 other EU countries also need to be won over.

0:03:28 > 0:03:30Brexit Secretary David Davis was in Vienna on Tuesday,

0:03:30 > 0:03:32colourfully describing what Brexit will not look like.

0:03:32 > 0:03:36They fear that Brexit will lead to an Anglo-Saxon race

0:03:36 > 0:03:39to the bottom, with Britain plunged into a Mad Max style world borrowed

0:03:39 > 0:03:44from dystopian fiction.

0:03:44 > 0:03:48These fears about a race to the bottom are based on nothing.

0:03:48 > 0:03:51But the EU are not convinced.

0:03:51 > 0:03:54European Council President Donald Tusk arguing that the UK

0:03:54 > 0:03:56was still trying to cherry pick its future

0:03:56 > 0:03:57relationship with the EU.

0:03:57 > 0:04:03I'm afraid that the UK position today is based on pure illusion.

0:04:03 > 0:04:06Until now, Jeremy Corbyn has played his Brexit

0:04:06 > 0:04:10cards close to his chest.

0:04:10 > 0:04:14He may begin to reveal his hand in a major speech tomorrow and this

0:04:14 > 0:04:18week he unusually raised Brexit at Prime Minister's Questions.

0:04:18 > 0:04:21This government isn't on the road to Brexit, Mr Speaker,

0:04:21 > 0:04:22it's on the road to nowhere.

0:04:22 > 0:04:26Can I congratulate the right honourable gentleman,

0:04:26 > 0:04:29because normally he stands up every week and asks me

0:04:29 > 0:04:32to sign a blank cheque.

0:04:32 > 0:04:35And I know he likes cheques, but, really, that is terribly...

0:04:35 > 0:04:39That was a reference to reports that the Labour leader had held

0:04:39 > 0:04:43meetings with the former Czechoslovakian spy in the 1980s.

0:04:43 > 0:04:46Mr Corbyn hit back at those reports with a social media video,

0:04:46 > 0:04:49in which he said rather cryptically, "Change is coming to

0:04:49 > 0:04:51the newspaper industry".

0:04:51 > 0:04:55Publishing these ridiculous smears that have been refuted by Czech

0:04:55 > 0:04:58officials shows just how worried the media bosses are at the prospect

0:04:58 > 0:04:59of a Labour government.

0:04:59 > 0:05:04They are right to be.

0:05:04 > 0:05:07Tory MP Ben Bradley had to apologise to Mr Corbyn over a tweet

0:05:07 > 0:05:10about the allegations, saying...

0:05:19 > 0:05:23But it wasn't all Brexit and brush passes.

0:05:23 > 0:05:25The Prime Minister began the week announcing a review

0:05:25 > 0:05:26into higher education.

0:05:26 > 0:05:29We now have one of the most expensive systems of university

0:05:29 > 0:05:30tuition in the world.

0:05:30 > 0:05:32Theresa May wants to demonstrate her government isn't

0:05:32 > 0:05:37simply defined by Brexit, but navigating the complications

0:05:37 > 0:05:41of leaving the EU is an all consuming task.

0:05:41 > 0:05:43If she can avoid it consuming her career, that

0:05:43 > 0:05:46could be her greatest achievement.

0:05:47 > 0:05:50Steve, Kate and Iain were watching that with me.

0:05:53 > 0:05:57Let's chew over what has been happening this week. People saying

0:05:57 > 0:06:00that meeting at Chequers, the Prime Minister played a blinder and got

0:06:00 > 0:06:03the Cabinet to agree. Outside the Cabinet, it looks like she is

0:06:03 > 0:06:10assaulted on all sides by pro-Brexit, pro had Brexit Tory MPs,

0:06:10 > 0:06:15the EU, it's not as easy as all that?It is never going to be easy

0:06:15 > 0:06:18for a Prime Minister who hasn't got a Parliamentary majority. She is

0:06:18 > 0:06:21very resilient. Whenever she's knocked down, she bounces back

0:06:21 > 0:06:25again. I think she has had quite a reasonable week this week, starting

0:06:25 > 0:06:28off on the front foot and tuition fees and ending the week with the

0:06:28 > 0:06:32meeting at Chequers. I think a lot of commentators thought it was going

0:06:32 > 0:06:36to be a disaster, that they would agree on the way board. The proof in

0:06:36 > 0:06:40the pudding will be on what she says in the speech on Friday. We have

0:06:40 > 0:06:44Jeremy Corbyn mandates and effectively she has to up with

0:06:44 > 0:06:47probably quite a lot more detail than she has done in the past. I

0:06:47 > 0:06:51think they have the basis for that now.Kate, we've talked a lot on

0:06:51 > 0:06:54this programme about the arguments within the Cabinet but now it looks

0:06:54 > 0:06:59like the focus is now on the wider Conservative Party. You have

0:06:59 > 0:07:02probably remain MPs like Anna Soubry saying they want to stay in the

0:07:02 > 0:07:07customs union, a letter from pro except MPs like Jacob Rees-Mogg

0:07:07 > 0:07:11saying they want full regulatory divergence. Which group is likely to

0:07:11 > 0:07:15win the day?I think what is most interesting this week will be Jeremy

0:07:15 > 0:07:19Corbyn's speech on Monday. That comes before Theresa May's speech on

0:07:19 > 0:07:24Friday. That will help tip those two sites, as it were, and we will see

0:07:24 > 0:07:29what will happen with the customs union. Jeremy Corbyn is likely to

0:07:29 > 0:07:32say he would like to stay in a customs union that is likely to make

0:07:32 > 0:07:36the Tory MPs on the Tories I'd like Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, who

0:07:36 > 0:07:41want to back and push for a customs union feel like they have more

0:07:41 > 0:07:49control over that. Whether it is likely not promote we are yet to

0:07:49 > 0:07:52see. If Labour is shifting its customs union position that much,

0:07:52 > 0:07:55that gives Tory MPs a lot more strength in the House of Commons

0:07:55 > 0:07:58because the government has already pushed back a vote on the customs

0:07:58 > 0:08:03union because they are worried about what is going happen.Those pro

0:08:03 > 0:08:07remain Tories on the Labour Party believe they have the Parliamentary

0:08:07 > 0:08:10arithmetic to force a defeat on the government over the customs union,

0:08:10 > 0:08:16are they right about that?Certainly in theory they are right. There are

0:08:16 > 0:08:21enough Conservative MPs and if the opposition vote for this, the

0:08:21 > 0:08:25government faces a defeat with profound consequences. We will not

0:08:25 > 0:08:29know probably until the moment when the vote takes place. It will be a

0:08:29 > 0:08:33moment of one of these great Parliamentary dramas, where there

0:08:33 > 0:08:38will be huge pressure on Tory MPs not to go along with this and say,

0:08:38 > 0:08:42you are in alliance with Jeremy Corbyn and so on. We won't know

0:08:42 > 0:08:45until the vote but in theory they have the numbers. It would be a game

0:08:45 > 0:08:49changer if this amendment was carried.This is fascinating. It

0:08:49 > 0:08:52means the power has gone to the house of parliament and has left

0:08:52 > 0:08:56number ten and the Cabinet, Hilary Benn described this as a backbencher

0:08:56 > 0:08:59's parliament because the government doesn't have a majority. Is that

0:08:59 > 0:09:04where the authority lies now?In some ideas. I'm not sure if I agree

0:09:04 > 0:09:07about the Parliamentary arithmetic because some will die with the

0:09:07 > 0:09:11Conservatives, and we will hear from one later, Frank Field. There are a

0:09:11 > 0:09:16group of them. I wonder about the numbers on the Tory benches, there

0:09:16 > 0:09:21is a hard-core group of about ten or a dozen that you think might well

0:09:21 > 0:09:25support Anna Soubry's amendment but I don't really see it going much

0:09:25 > 0:09:29beyond that. But you are right, it will be on a bit of a knife edge. If

0:09:29 > 0:09:34it came to the government were defeated on this, then we are in

0:09:34 > 0:09:35uncharted waters, because the government could actually make it a

0:09:35 > 0:09:40vote of confidence. It would be very unusual to do one on an amendment to

0:09:40 > 0:09:43a bill but it is possible, or they could call a vote of confidence that

0:09:43 > 0:09:50would put Anna Soubry and all the others in

0:09:50 > 0:09:52others in a bit a tricky position. If they did vote against the

0:09:52 > 0:09:55government on a vote of confidence, they would have to be deselected.We

0:09:55 > 0:09:57will talk about that throughout the programme.

0:09:57 > 0:09:59Listening to all that is the former Conservative leader,

0:09:59 > 0:10:01and leading Brexit campaigner, Iain Duncan Smith.

0:10:01 > 0:10:04Welcome to the programme. Do you accept there is a significant chance

0:10:04 > 0:10:07the government could be defeated on a customs union in the House of

0:10:07 > 0:10:12Commons question when you don't have a majority there is a chance to be

0:10:12 > 0:10:15defeated on anything.I love the way the media looks at this cost would

0:10:15 > 0:10:18take a pace back, it's a government that won the election and didn't get

0:10:18 > 0:10:21an overall majority so it means almost anything anyone is upset

0:10:21 > 0:10:25about could cause a problem for the government, fact of life. Brexit is

0:10:25 > 0:10:29just one, it's a very big issue but one of those, there has been other

0:10:29 > 0:10:32issues and there will be on the issue is following through.It

0:10:32 > 0:10:37matters to you whether we are in a customs union with the EU?Lots of

0:10:37 > 0:10:41things deeply matter to me, beyond Brexit. But yes. I think the key

0:10:41 > 0:10:45thing is not what I believe but the Prime Minister has been pretty clear

0:10:45 > 0:10:49about this from the word go, way before the election, during the

0:10:49 > 0:10:52election importantly and even subsequently she has made it very

0:10:52 > 0:10:55clear we are taking back control, leaving the customs union, single

0:10:55 > 0:10:59market, and at the same time making sure we get outside of the remit of

0:10:59 > 0:11:11the court of justice. She has been clear about this.

0:11:37 > 0:11:40Let's pick a bit of that. In her Lancaster House speech she said she

0:11:40 > 0:11:43wanted us to have a customs agreement with the EU, not a customs

0:11:43 > 0:11:44union but customs agreement. This controversial amendment Anna Soubry

0:11:44 > 0:11:47another Superdome says they want an agreement that enables the UK to be

0:11:47 > 0:11:49able to participate in a customs union with the EU, is there space

0:11:49 > 0:11:52for that?It depends what the detail is. The government set it out quite

0:11:52 > 0:11:55rightly on having a proper free trade arrang ement. You can describe

0:11:55 > 0:11:57a free-trade arrangement in all different ways but a free-trade

0:11:57 > 0:12:00arrangement is about us having a clear ability to sell-out goods into

0:12:00 > 0:12:01the European Union them to sell us without artificial trade barriers

0:12:01 > 0:12:03that will require arrangements that out customs arrangements. The big

0:12:03 > 0:12:06them to sell us without artificial trade barriers and that will require

0:12:06 > 0:12:08arrangements that out customs arrangements. The behind having a

0:12:08 > 0:12:10customs union and being outside a free-trade arrangement is we are 90%

0:12:10 > 0:12:13of the graces in the global economy in the next two years, we will be

0:12:13 > 0:12:16free to do that. If we are in a customs union, you to make trade

0:12:16 > 0:12:18arrangements with America, Australia, India, where ever we want

0:12:18 > 0:12:21to, where 90% of the growth is in the global economy in the next two

0:12:21 > 0:12:24years, we will be free to do that. If we are in a customs union, you

0:12:24 > 0:12:27agree do that and therefore we would have to what the European Union to

0:12:27 > 0:12:29what the European certainly be outvoted endlessly. This is about

0:12:29 > 0:12:31where does the power light and we would almost certainly be outvoted

0:12:31 > 0:12:34endlessly. This is about where does the with the rest of the world in a

0:12:34 > 0:12:36moment but exactly what you describe, the free-trade arrangement

0:12:36 > 0:12:39with no tariffs with the EUand the freedom to make those deals, that is

0:12:39 > 0:12:41what the EU called cherry picking? What they really called cherry

0:12:41 > 0:12:43picking is this arrangement we are talking about now, a customs union.

0:12:43 > 0:12:46They have been pretty clear about this. They said it is not

0:12:46 > 0:12:52acceptable. Let's look at it from the European Union to make those

0:12:52 > 0:12:54agreements?I want to get into the detail on free-trade deals with the

0:12:54 > 0:12:57rest of the world in a moment but exactly what you describe, the

0:12:57 > 0:13:00free-trade arrangement with no tariffs with the EU and the freedom

0:13:00 > 0:13:02to make those deals, that is what the EU called cherry picking?What

0:13:02 > 0:13:04they really called cherry picking is this arrangement we are talking

0:13:04 > 0:13:07about now, a customs union. They have been pretty clear about this.

0:13:07 > 0:13:09They said it is not acceptable. Let's look at it from the European

0:13:09 > 0:13:12Union's standpoint. We constantly look at what the UK once. You use is

0:13:12 > 0:13:14certainly not going to agree going into a customs union where we will

0:13:14 > 0:13:17then have over any future agreement, so we will outvote all 27 because we

0:13:17 > 0:13:19that would depend on the agreement. ...That would depend on the

0:13:19 > 0:13:22agreement. The EU wants would have enormous power against them, they an

0:13:22 > 0:13:24agreement, we would have enormous power against them, they won't agree

0:13:24 > 0:13:27because it is not in their interests to do I think what is more in

0:13:27 > 0:13:30arrangement. There are lots of countries that are already breaking

0:13:30 > 0:13:31ranks with the commission about this, Italy, Sweden, Holland said we

0:13:31 > 0:13:33have to have a free-trade arrangement.They are not on that

0:13:33 > 0:13:36yet, they are still on the implementation phase. When it comes

0:13:36 > 0:13:38to free trade, I am very, very certain that they will want to make

0:13:38 > 0:13:41an arrangement with us because it is in their interests, arguably more

0:13:41 > 0:13:43than us. , they want a free-trade arrangement. There are lots of

0:13:43 > 0:13:45countries that are already breaking ranks with the commission about

0:13:45 > 0:13:47this, Italy, Sweden, Holland said we have to have a free-trade

0:13:47 > 0:13:50arrangement. They are not on that yet, they are still on the

0:13:50 > 0:13:52implementation phase. When it comes to free-trade, I am very, very

0:13:52 > 0:13:55certain that they will want to make an arrangement with us because it is

0:13:55 > 0:13:57in their interests, arguably more than us let's move on to trade with

0:13:57 > 0:14:00the rest of the world. Why do so absolutely convinced that the

0:14:00 > 0:14:02ability to do with Australia, China, the ones the EU has at the,

0:14:02 > 0:14:05different from the ones the EU has at increasing our trade with these

0:14:05 > 0:14:07countries from inside the EU? Their biggestare so terribly important?

0:14:07 > 0:14:10Why can't we be increasing our trade with these countries from inside the

0:14:10 > 0:14:14EU?Their biggest free-trade we are naturally, the UK, more than any

0:14:14 > 0:14:16other country in the European country, arguably more than most in

0:14:16 > 0:14:20the world, a free-trade for free trade the WTO has a ready said they

0:14:20 > 0:14:24love the idea of us coming back as a full voting member because we will

0:14:24 > 0:14:26argue for free trade. By, global free trade and services, which stop

0:14:26 > 0:14:29because the European Union has not wanted to push the site at all.Do

0:14:29 > 0:14:33so much more trade with China than us from within the EU?That is to do

0:14:33 > 0:14:36with what Germany says they want to do and go and do it Germany do so

0:14:36 > 0:14:40much more trade with China than us from within the EU? That is to do

0:14:40 > 0:14:42with what Germany says they want to do and go and do it.Being a member

0:14:42 > 0:14:47of the EU has being a member of the EU be outside the that so why do we

0:14:47 > 0:14:53have to be outside you get rid of artificial tarrythat is not

0:14:53 > 0:14:55parallel argument. By getting trade arrangements you get rid of

0:14:55 > 0:14:57artificial and delays at the borders that allows you to increase your

0:14:57 > 0:15:01trade. We want from where we are. But at the same time, incoming stuff

0:15:01 > 0:15:06is just as important. The people who will benefit most from a free-trade

0:15:06 > 0:15:09arrangement of the poorest in society because the cost of food,

0:15:09 > 0:15:14footwear and clothing will almost certainly our trade from where we

0:15:14 > 0:15:25are. But at the same time, incoming stuff is just as important.

0:15:25 > 0:15:30You might as much larger and more important market. The skill is not

0:15:30 > 0:15:35that important. The key thing is, do you value a marketplace, is it worth

0:15:35 > 0:15:39doing business with? Financial services is an important are great

0:15:39 > 0:15:43-- an important area you want to strike agreements with. The UK's

0:15:43 > 0:15:45dominant in financial services and you cannot get a free-trade

0:15:45 > 0:15:50agreement within the single market at the moment. You cannot sell

0:15:50 > 0:15:58insurance in Germany without having a company in Germany to sell it.

0:15:58 > 0:16:01They have never wanted to do financial service is free trade. We

0:16:01 > 0:16:03will be in a much better state globally. You have seen the increase

0:16:03 > 0:16:06in New Zealand's trade when they went for free-trade and got rid of

0:16:06 > 0:16:10their trade barriers.A dramatic increase in no global position. The

0:16:10 > 0:16:17tragedy led to this and they reckon a free-trade deal with America we

0:16:17 > 0:16:25did 0.02% to the UK's GDP.I have a bone to pick with the BBC. There has

0:16:25 > 0:16:30been a brilliant economic report are independent, which has been given

0:16:30 > 0:16:33very little coverage which is taken apart the model that the Treasury

0:16:33 > 0:16:37and the government put together. For example, dealing with this. The

0:16:37 > 0:16:41reason why you arrive at this, it depends on what you assume to be the

0:16:41 > 0:16:45actual savings on the border. The government has only assumed a 4%

0:16:45 > 0:16:49saving on getting rid of tariff barriers. Almost every economist in

0:16:49 > 0:16:55the world agrees it is nearer to 20% saving.This study has been covered

0:16:55 > 0:17:00on the BBC it was on the Daily Politics on Friday. It assumes zero

0:17:00 > 0:17:05tariffs on absolutely everything. It is an extremely optimistic forecast.

0:17:05 > 0:17:09It assumes a 10% tariff at the end of the day, it assumes tariffs

0:17:09 > 0:17:14falling to an average of 10%, not zero. If they went to zero it would

0:17:14 > 0:17:20improve it even more. I have read this report backwards.One of the

0:17:20 > 0:17:24officers says that while there will be benefits from free-trade deals,

0:17:24 > 0:17:28over time it would be likely we would mostly eliminate manufacturing

0:17:28 > 0:17:32in UK by the things that would be worth it and it should not us.That

0:17:32 > 0:17:37was one of the original suggestions, much earlier.But he was one of the

0:17:37 > 0:17:41authors of this report.He was but he has accepted this is not going to

0:17:41 > 0:17:45be the case within this report. They're assuming that the border

0:17:45 > 0:17:48changes will mean less of a tariff on the borders at average. That is

0:17:48 > 0:17:52what happens in most other free-trade arrangements. The point

0:17:52 > 0:17:56I'm making is it has a massive benefit to the UK for us to do this.

0:17:56 > 0:17:59That is why going for a free-trade agreement with the European Union is

0:17:59 > 0:18:08the right way to go. We forget what Europe itself once.Labour is in a

0:18:08 > 0:18:11complete mess about this. We will talk to this about -- we will talk

0:18:11 > 0:18:15to them about that.They were in favour of leaving the customs union

0:18:15 > 0:18:18and the single market and Barry Gardner said it was making a vassal

0:18:18 > 0:18:23state if you stayed in the customs union. We will ask Labour themselves

0:18:23 > 0:18:27about that. Theresa May has made it clear where out of the single market

0:18:27 > 0:18:30and Customs union and I say to my colleagues who want to change some

0:18:30 > 0:18:35of this, just be very careful on this one, because being invited into

0:18:35 > 0:18:39a Labour Party tactical game which will end up in real damage the

0:18:39 > 0:18:43United Kingdom.Iain Duncan Smith, thank you very much for talking to

0:18:43 > 0:18:44us.

0:18:44 > 0:18:46So much for the Conservatives, but what about Labour?

0:18:46 > 0:18:48In 24 hours' time, Jeremy Corbyn will give

0:18:48 > 0:18:49a keynote speech on Brexit.

0:18:49 > 0:18:52All the signs are that he will back the UK staying permanently

0:18:52 > 0:18:54in a customs union with the EU.

0:18:54 > 0:18:57But over 80 senior Labour figures have today urged Mr Corbyn to go

0:18:57 > 0:19:00further and support staying in the single market as well.

0:19:00 > 0:19:02But how would that go down with the millions of Labour

0:19:02 > 0:19:03voters who backed Brexit?

0:19:03 > 0:19:05Here's what the Shadow Brexit Secretary, Keir Starmer,

0:19:05 > 0:19:06said this morning.

0:19:06 > 0:19:09Well, we have long championed being in a customs union with the EU

0:19:09 > 0:19:14and the benefits of that.

0:19:14 > 0:19:16Obviously, it is the only way, realistically, to get

0:19:16 > 0:19:18tariff free access.

0:19:18 > 0:19:22It is really important for our manufacturing base

0:19:22 > 0:19:25and nobody can answer the question how you keep your commitment to no

0:19:25 > 0:19:27hard border in Northern Ireland without a customs union.

0:19:27 > 0:19:30We have always said that the benefits of the single

0:19:30 > 0:19:33market must be there in the final agreement and that is a really

0:19:33 > 0:19:35important commitment because in the end, however

0:19:35 > 0:19:37you arrive at that, in whatever the instrument or agreement it is,

0:19:37 > 0:19:39the benefits have got to be there.

0:19:39 > 0:19:41Labour is agreed on that end state.

0:19:41 > 0:19:44There is obviously an argument about how we get there.

0:19:44 > 0:19:46To discuss this I'm joined by two Labour MPs who fall on opposing

0:19:46 > 0:19:48sides of the Brexit argument.

0:19:48 > 0:19:50Frank Field campaigned to leave the EU and Stella Creasy

0:19:50 > 0:19:53is a supporter of the pro-European group Open Britain.

0:19:53 > 0:19:58Thank you both for coming on the programme. Stella Creasy, you have

0:19:58 > 0:20:01signed this letter to Jeremy Corbyn to be asking not only to stay in the

0:20:01 > 0:20:07customs union but also the single market. If you're in both of them, I

0:20:07 > 0:20:12really delivering on the referendum Brexit result?There are lots of

0:20:12 > 0:20:14different combinations that still see is leaving the European Union

0:20:14 > 0:20:19but do what Labour people across this country, and that is why there

0:20:19 > 0:20:22is support across the country and the party for this letter, which is

0:20:22 > 0:20:28to protect the jobs and incomes. We know that Brexit, any of the models,

0:20:28 > 0:20:31I am horrified to your Iain Duncan Smith dismissing the idea that

0:20:31 > 0:20:35manufacturing may be at stake or the numbers don't matter. It is a

0:20:35 > 0:20:40massive hit on our economy. It is a massive hit took peace in Northern

0:20:40 > 0:20:43Ireland if we leave the customs union. These are called labour

0:20:43 > 0:20:47values and that is what we are standing up for.You're asking to

0:20:47 > 0:20:50stay in the single market. The problem with that is you thought an

0:20:50 > 0:20:56election last year under a manifesto which said that free movement will

0:20:56 > 0:20:59end.You cannot do both. I am in the migration committee on the Council

0:20:59 > 0:21:03of Europe. Lots of people are willing to talk about how we make

0:21:03 > 0:21:06freedom of movement work. They recognise politicians have not got

0:21:06 > 0:21:10it right across the continent. If we are not fighting to stay in the

0:21:10 > 0:21:14single market we cannot have that conversation about what the reformed

0:21:14 > 0:21:18freedom of movement might look like. I think freedom of movement is an

0:21:18 > 0:21:21important right for people in this country. I do not want to have to

0:21:21 > 0:21:24see the kids in Walthamstow Birkenhead that their ability to

0:21:24 > 0:21:28work for a company that has a base outside the UK will be hampered by

0:21:28 > 0:21:35decisions we've made. That puts them in an austerity Britain and I do not

0:21:35 > 0:21:38want to do that.Frank Field, does this sound like a Brexit you could

0:21:38 > 0:21:42sell to any leave photo?No, and you know perfectly well we cannot sell

0:21:42 > 0:21:47it. I am looking forward to what Jeremy Corbyn says tomorrow because

0:21:47 > 0:21:54you have hyped it up. On every vote we have had Onuora before he came --

0:21:54 > 0:21:57before he became leader, Jeremy Corbyn and I were deeply suspicious

0:21:57 > 0:22:01of this organisation which is corrupt, it has never got its

0:22:01 > 0:22:06accounts audited, it is bankrupt. Whatever he says tomorrow he will

0:22:06 > 0:22:10not be arguing to stay in the EU, he will be arguing for the customs

0:22:10 > 0:22:19union?Please, let me finish. It is deeply corrupt. It is bankrupt. It

0:22:19 > 0:22:23has destabilised Europe with all this pretence about it has brought

0:22:23 > 0:22:30peace. Look what we have done to the area around Russia. Given there are

0:22:30 > 0:22:34number of states within Europe who depend on our contribution, we

0:22:34 > 0:22:38should be voting for a clear decorate -- a clear declaration, we

0:22:38 > 0:22:44want a free-trade area, and we have money. What are you going to choose.

0:22:44 > 0:22:47I think we should take the gloves off in these negotiations and look

0:22:47 > 0:22:52at the real power structure. They need our money, and for reasons

0:22:52 > 0:22:57which Stella Creasy has put forward, we need access to a free-market

0:22:57 > 0:23:00arrangement.What is your problem with Jeremy Corbyn saying that the

0:23:00 > 0:23:06Labour policy will be too clearly stay in a customs union?Two things.

0:23:06 > 0:23:12One, it goes against what we said at the election. It goes against all

0:23:12 > 0:23:17the scare tactics during the campaign, all the major figures were

0:23:17 > 0:23:22saying, you know, if you vote here, you're leaving the customs union,

0:23:22 > 0:23:26you're leaving the free market. There was no question about what the

0:23:26 > 0:23:32referendum was deciding. And the politics of this is, are we going to

0:23:32 > 0:23:37be run by a London agenda? I know Stella Creasy has got other issues

0:23:37 > 0:23:43that she reaches out across the country, but this is essentially a

0:23:43 > 0:23:46London agenda against Labour voters, particularly in the North.

0:23:46 > 0:23:51THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE You have got the mayor of Liverpool

0:23:51 > 0:23:55who signed this letter, the leader of Newcastle Council.You and I

0:23:55 > 0:23:59would in the lobby fighting together against this government's welfare

0:23:59 > 0:24:03cuts.£12 billion cuts.That is nothing to do with this. It

0:24:03 > 0:24:08absolutely is. Even the bare minimal model we are talking about would be

0:24:08 > 0:24:13ahead on our economy and the communities we represent. How can we

0:24:13 > 0:24:18vote Forestieri the? How can you do that to the voters, the People who

0:24:18 > 0:24:22work in the Vauxhall plants in the Wirral who are frightened they are

0:24:22 > 0:24:25about to lose their jobs. How can you do that to the People in

0:24:25 > 0:24:30Northern Ireland?Let me answer you, please. We have been through the

0:24:30 > 0:24:33courts. There is no problem about the Good Friday Agreement being

0:24:33 > 0:24:38challenged by this at all. We have got time, I am happy to discuss it.

0:24:38 > 0:24:42I think there are problems with the Good Friday Agreement and a customs

0:24:42 > 0:24:47union.No, it will remain. If we have time, I would love to discuss

0:24:47 > 0:24:54that with you. About austerity, can I answer that? We are net

0:24:54 > 0:24:56contributor. We will have money to be brought back. While some people

0:24:56 > 0:25:03have signed the order leaders even there, when you look at the

0:25:03 > 0:25:11parliamentary arithmetic, Mrs May almost hollowed out our vote in the

0:25:11 > 0:25:15seats were only kept by a handful of votes. These are seats which voted

0:25:15 > 0:25:20very clearly to leave. That is the act of faith. I know there are

0:25:20 > 0:25:23problems about how do you give the electorate the sovereignty to decide

0:25:23 > 0:25:27an issue and then bring it back into a representative parliamentary

0:25:27 > 0:25:35system, but the vote was cleared to leave. The bill is about leaving and

0:25:35 > 0:25:38whether we support that or not and if we do not support that, I think

0:25:38 > 0:25:41Labour voters will draw their own messages in the North.Please do not

0:25:41 > 0:25:45drive Boris's bars for the People of those communities. You're saying

0:25:45 > 0:25:49that somehow we will get money back. All the evidence shows is that any

0:25:49 > 0:25:55money you get back will be dwarfed by what we will lose. You're talking

0:25:55 > 0:26:02about £1 billion coming back. THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

0:26:02 > 0:26:06You can talk across me all you like, the numbers are there in the

0:26:06 > 0:26:10government's on analysis. That is what we have to front up to the

0:26:10 > 0:26:16communities we represent.Are you going to write on the People's

0:26:16 > 0:26:21decision to leave?You're coming out with all these things, we will stay

0:26:21 > 0:26:25in a customs union, we will stay in a single market, the decision was

0:26:25 > 0:26:32quite clear to leave. In the north, Labour voters voted very, very

0:26:32 > 0:26:39clearly. You going to rat on them or not? Never mind about buses and all

0:26:39 > 0:26:41the rest of it. It does matter. Let her answer. It

0:26:41 > 0:26:46is about the evidence that we now have. Democracy did not stop the day

0:26:46 > 0:26:50after the referendum.People have a right to see the detail.Of course

0:26:50 > 0:26:54they do. Do you accept that the government figures show clearly that

0:26:54 > 0:26:59if we stay in the European economic arrangement, which is out of the EU,

0:26:59 > 0:27:04we are still going to take a 16 pelt -- a £16 billion hit on our economy?

0:27:04 > 0:27:08That worse anything you get back. This letter is not just signed from

0:27:08 > 0:27:12people across the country but people across the trade union movement

0:27:12 > 0:27:18because they because they know the

0:27:25 > 0:27:27hard Brexit the government is pushing for and why it matters

0:27:27 > 0:27:30Jeremy Corbyn is fighting for the customs union and single market

0:27:30 > 0:27:32membership.It means jobs and wages. What we should be fighting forest

0:27:32 > 0:27:34sector agreements with the European Union. We want a free-trade area.

0:27:34 > 0:27:37They have always opposed the activities of the city. There is no

0:27:37 > 0:27:39need to worry about the city. There is a need to worry about

0:27:39 > 0:27:42manufacturing and we will make special arrangements with them. The

0:27:42 > 0:27:46issue is clear, do we disguise the fact by pretending we're going to

0:27:46 > 0:27:52have a customs union or some other arrangement which counters what the

0:27:52 > 0:27:57clear declaration of northern Labour voters actually said?They have

0:27:57 > 0:28:01changed their side. A third of Labour voters did vote for leave.

0:28:01 > 0:28:05You risk them abandoning the party. This is not about rerunning the

0:28:05 > 0:28:10referendum. It is about what kind of deal do we get and is it in the best

0:28:10 > 0:28:13interests of Britain. I believe voters across this country have the

0:28:13 > 0:28:15right to know what is likely to happen.

0:28:15 > 0:28:24THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE Of course they have a right.A right

0:28:24 > 0:28:30to every bit of information going. The key thing, we have had a

0:28:30 > 0:28:33referendum and we rarely use referendums for this reason, they

0:28:33 > 0:28:36are difficult to implement. The referendum decision was clear and

0:28:36 > 0:28:41particularly clear in the North from Labour voters. I want to keep faith

0:28:41 > 0:28:44with them. I voted to come out. I know it is harder for people who

0:28:44 > 0:28:52voted to stay in. Are we going to dress up a retreat, Agassi?Then

0:28:52 > 0:28:55there is a complicated decision for you to make. We've been talking

0:28:55 > 0:28:58about the amendment put forward by Anna Soubry and others, an amendment

0:28:58 > 0:29:03to the trade bill that will be voted on in a few time. There is a

0:29:03 > 0:29:06potential to defeat the government is Jeremy Corbyn comes out in favour

0:29:06 > 0:29:11of a customs union and whips his MPs to vote that way. If you had the

0:29:11 > 0:29:14opportunity to win a vote against the government and bring down

0:29:14 > 0:29:21Theresa May, would you vote with her to keep her in office or against?

0:29:21 > 0:29:24That is not the choice and you know that. That will be the choice on the

0:29:24 > 0:29:26day. We will have a decision, do we continue to implement the referendum

0:29:26 > 0:29:32decision. I shall be voting for that.Even if that is voting to prop

0:29:32 > 0:29:36up the government?It is not about propping up the government it is

0:29:36 > 0:29:41about implementing a decision of the People. The government has a

0:29:41 > 0:29:44majority on this. The idea that Anna Soubry is going to lead all these

0:29:44 > 0:29:49people into the labour lobbies is just fairy tales. But we will see on

0:29:49 > 0:29:52the night. The government will win comfortably and double figures on

0:29:52 > 0:29:56this issue.Frank Field, Stella Creasy, we will have to leave it

0:29:56 > 0:29:59there. Thank you very much.

0:29:59 > 0:30:02The local elections in May will see many seats in the big metropolitan

0:30:02 > 0:30:05councils in England up for grabs, and the Conservatives may need

0:30:05 > 0:30:06to brace for a difficult night.

0:30:06 > 0:30:08A YouGov poll predicts Labour could seize several

0:30:08 > 0:30:10Conservative councils in London, including one the Tories

0:30:10 > 0:30:11have never lost before.

0:30:11 > 0:30:15Emma Vardy looks ahead.

0:30:15 > 0:30:19Not since the swinging '60s has anyone done better in local

0:30:19 > 0:30:22elections than Labour could be about to.

0:30:22 > 0:30:25A recent YouGov poll is predicting Labour will sweep London

0:30:25 > 0:30:33with the best results for any party since 1968.

0:30:35 > 0:30:39One of the most enduring Tory strongholds is here.

0:30:39 > 0:30:41To this day, Westminster, with its largely affluent

0:30:41 > 0:30:45population of voters, has never had a Labour-run

0:30:45 > 0:30:51authority, but if the poll is to be believed, that could now change.

0:30:51 > 0:30:55This council has been Conservative-controlled ever

0:30:55 > 0:30:59since the borough was created in the 1960s.

0:30:59 > 0:31:03But if the swing was big enough to turn this council red,

0:31:03 > 0:31:05that would top off a very good night for Labour.

0:31:05 > 0:31:08The Conservatives are at position where they could potentially

0:31:08 > 0:31:13be left with just one, maybe two councils in all of London.

0:31:13 > 0:31:16I think that would be a bad night for the Conservatives,

0:31:16 > 0:31:19but it is possible.

0:31:19 > 0:31:23They are having to fight to hang on almost everywhere

0:31:23 > 0:31:24they still have representation.

0:31:24 > 0:31:26But away from London, it could be a different story.

0:31:26 > 0:31:32Birmingham City Council has been controlled by Labour since 2012.

0:31:32 > 0:31:36They hold around two-thirds of the seats here, but there

0:31:36 > 0:31:40is anger over a bin dispute that lasted for months and left tons

0:31:40 > 0:31:42of rubbish on the streets uncollected, and resentment over

0:31:42 > 0:31:46budget cuts that are affecting local services.

0:31:46 > 0:31:49It does not matter who is in because there is nothing between them,

0:31:49 > 0:31:52that is the problem, because Birmingham is basically

0:31:52 > 0:31:55screwed by central government, who have reduced all of our grants.

0:31:55 > 0:31:58There has been a lot of problems with the bin collections.

0:31:58 > 0:31:59Yes, there have.

0:31:59 > 0:32:00Oh, yes.

0:32:00 > 0:32:02The Labour run council got the blame for that?

0:32:02 > 0:32:04Yes, I would say so.

0:32:04 > 0:32:06The more it dragged on, certainly, yes.

0:32:06 > 0:32:10This will be the first all-out election for Birmingham City Council

0:32:10 > 0:32:13since boundary changes, so there are 101 seats

0:32:13 > 0:32:17here all up for grabs.

0:32:17 > 0:32:20It is a place Labour should do well, but could the party be

0:32:20 > 0:32:21punished over those bins?

0:32:21 > 0:32:24Back in the summer, of course, we had the bin strike.

0:32:24 > 0:32:27It was not the city's greatest moment in time.

0:32:27 > 0:32:30When I became leader of the council, I pledged we would resolve that

0:32:30 > 0:32:31dispute, which we have now done.

0:32:31 > 0:32:34We, the Labour Party here in Birmingham, are committed

0:32:34 > 0:32:36to maintaining weekly bin collections going forward

0:32:36 > 0:32:39for the next four years, a commitment I've yet to hear

0:32:39 > 0:32:43from either of the other two parties.

0:32:43 > 0:32:47Here in Birmingham, the council tax has gone up over 20% in seven years,

0:32:47 > 0:32:49but services have gone down, and people are seeing rubbish

0:32:49 > 0:32:51left on their streets, and they feel it is time

0:32:51 > 0:32:52for a change.

0:32:52 > 0:32:54There are plenty of other places who survive

0:32:54 > 0:32:55on fortnightly bin collections.

0:32:55 > 0:32:57With council budgets being constrained, is that

0:32:57 > 0:33:00not a sensible option?

0:33:00 > 0:33:02In Birmingham, we are absolutely clear that weekly bin

0:33:02 > 0:33:03collections need to remain.

0:33:03 > 0:33:09Meanwhile, the Liberal Democrats and the Greens remain much

0:33:09 > 0:33:11stronger in local government than they are in Parliament,

0:33:11 > 0:33:13and in May, they will be fighting to increase

0:33:13 > 0:33:16their local authority presence.

0:33:16 > 0:33:20While Ukip are likely to continue to struggle to reverse

0:33:20 > 0:33:23the party's decline.

0:33:23 > 0:33:25But if the story of the night is the biggest Labour

0:33:25 > 0:33:27success since the '60s, any high-profile defeats in Tory

0:33:27 > 0:33:30strongholds could start to make some Conservative MPs worry

0:33:30 > 0:33:35about their constituencies ahead of the next general election.

0:33:35 > 0:33:39Steve, Kate and Iain are still with me.

0:33:39 > 0:33:44Let's pick up on the local elections. Kate, should Theresa May

0:33:44 > 0:33:49be deeply worried about this, what she expected a bad night and what

0:33:49 > 0:33:53might the consequences be?No doubt she will be worried but my favourite

0:33:53 > 0:33:56thing is Everything is underlined by the fact people care more about

0:33:56 > 0:33:59things than other things that is what politics comes down to, at the

0:33:59 > 0:34:03end of the day. I think Theresa May will be worried. -- it comes down

0:34:03 > 0:34:10bins. It is a battle ground for those parties. Places like Haringey,

0:34:10 > 0:34:14if you see what has happened to Labour in those areas, and how

0:34:14 > 0:34:17powerful momentum and the left have become in local politics, you see

0:34:17 > 0:34:22how much it matters to Labour. I think the Tories will be worried,

0:34:22 > 0:34:26particularly about London. As the BT said, Labour expect to do quite well

0:34:26 > 0:34:30and that is not going to look very good. Brandon Lewis, the new

0:34:30 > 0:34:34chairman of the party, said last week we expect big losses in London.

0:34:34 > 0:34:38He is setting that already. I think the Tory party is worried. In areas

0:34:38 > 0:34:41like Birmingham and other areas around the country, Brexit is likely

0:34:41 > 0:34:45to be important and I think that's why it comes back to labour being

0:34:45 > 0:34:49modelled on Brexit. People vote with their feet. If the Tories can win

0:34:49 > 0:34:52back some seats like burning in other places, it might not be a

0:34:52 > 0:34:57massive all-out loss lost them on the night.Expectation management

0:34:57 > 0:35:02already being Manoj

0:35:02 > 0:35:05already being Manoj -- being managed. Actual voters telling us

0:35:05 > 0:35:08what they think. Did they have consequences that Parliamentary

0:35:08 > 0:35:14politics?They could do this time. It reminds me, Steve will remember

0:35:14 > 0:35:18this, 1990 when the Tories did disastrously in local elections.

0:35:18 > 0:35:26Kenneth Baker went out on the streets and exempted we kept once

0:35:26 > 0:35:30loved. I don't think that will happen this time. Kate is right,

0:35:30 > 0:35:34Brandon Lewis, the Tory party chairman has already started to

0:35:34 > 0:35:40manage expectations. He generally believe they are in for a drubbing,

0:35:40 > 0:35:46particularly in London. These will last up for grabs in 2014 when Ukip

0:35:46 > 0:35:50are doing well. In the last year, Ukip's vote has virtually

0:35:50 > 0:35:53disappeared. So all three other parties, their votes have gone up in

0:35:53 > 0:35:57by-elections. It depends where that vote goes, Wilbur Liberal Democrats

0:35:57 > 0:36:03be able to hold onto the seats they won in that year? -- Wilbur Liberal

0:36:03 > 0:36:07Democrats be able to hold onto the six? I think it will be a drumming

0:36:07 > 0:36:12but I think it will be patchy. Andy Street has been reasonably popular

0:36:12 > 0:36:15in the West Midlands. If they do in the West Midlands. If they do

0:36:15 > 0:36:19that they will have a 1990 situation and that is all they will talk

0:36:19 > 0:36:20that they will have a 1990 situation about.Even if they lose

0:36:20 > 0:36:28Westminster?Probably.How important is it for Labour to do

0:36:28 > 0:36:29Westminster?Probably.How important seem to be be -- do they need to be

0:36:29 > 0:36:32seem to be be -- do they need to be seen making advances, to keep up

0:36:32 > 0:36:38with the idea they are on the Tory's heels?I think it is important for

0:36:38 > 0:36:41that whatever happens I don't think

0:36:41 > 0:36:41heels?I think it is important for it will have a huge impact on the

0:36:41 > 0:36:42heels?I think it is important for national picture because I think it

0:36:42 > 0:36:46will confirm the dynamics as they already are, in other words Jeremy

0:36:46 > 0:36:48already are, in other words Jeremy Corbyn has been in a strong position

0:36:48 > 0:36:53since the general election and that will be confirmed. Theresa May has

0:36:53 > 0:36:55since the general election and that been in a fragile position

0:36:55 > 0:36:56since the general election and that general election and that will be

0:36:56 > 0:37:00confirmed. But by that point Brexit

0:37:00 > 0:37:00general election and that will be will be reaching or coming close to

0:37:00 > 0:37:05one of its several climactic son I think that will shape the national

0:37:05 > 0:37:08one of its several climactic son I picture. The local elections will be

0:37:08 > 0:37:12really important for local government, who inherit the

0:37:12 > 0:37:13nightmarish budget. It won't change

0:37:13 > 0:37:17government, who inherit the the national picture very much.Iain

0:37:17 > 0:37:22said Ukip's vote has been falling and they have had their troubles

0:37:22 > 0:37:26recently as well. Important to see where their vote goes

0:37:26 > 0:37:27recently as well. Important to see we are moving back to

0:37:27 > 0:37:31recently as well. Important to see politics maybe?I think it does

0:37:31 > 0:37:33nationally but locally it's a different picture

0:37:33 > 0:37:35nationally but locally it's a vote tends to go on all kinds of

0:37:35 > 0:37:41directions. It doesn't necessarily go where you think it will. So

0:37:41 > 0:37:43directions. It doesn't necessarily Liberal Democrats and the Greens

0:37:43 > 0:37:43directions. It doesn't necessarily quite well at local elections,

0:37:43 > 0:37:44whereas nationally they don't do whereas nationally they don't do

0:37:44 > 0:37:47very well at all. I think

0:37:47 > 0:37:49whereas nationally they don't do you do see people who would vote for

0:37:49 > 0:37:50whereas nationally they don't do any other party going for any other

0:37:50 > 0:37:53any other party going for any other party and not necessarily the Tories

0:37:53 > 0:37:55any other party going for any other and Labour. I think it comes down to

0:37:55 > 0:38:01how much this comes down to Brexit. Do people care more about Brexit or

0:38:01 > 0:38:03how much this comes down to Brexit. bins question mark in areas like

0:38:03 > 0:38:05how much this comes down to Brexit. London, I think Brexit and bigger

0:38:05 > 0:38:07national issues will have a bearing.

0:38:07 > 0:38:10London, I think Brexit and bigger Brexit one way or another will help

0:38:10 > 0:38:18with your bins?London has become a Labour city. Huge capital city with

0:38:18 > 0:38:20Labour city. Huge capital city with millions and millions has become a

0:38:20 > 0:38:22Labour stronghold. That is

0:38:22 > 0:38:23millions and millions has become a significant for all kinds of

0:38:23 > 0:38:29reasons. It has also become as strong as it used to be in Scotland.

0:38:29 > 0:38:34Even in 2010 in the general election, London voted Labour by a

0:38:34 > 0:38:35Even in 2010 in the general wide margin. That is quite a

0:38:35 > 0:38:37Even in 2010 in the general significant development.We need to

0:38:37 > 0:38:39leave it there just now, coming

0:38:39 > 0:38:43significant development.We need to to you later in the programme.

0:38:43 > 0:38:45Still to come...

0:38:45 > 0:38:47We speak to Former Northern Ireland Secretary James Brokenshire

0:38:47 > 0:38:49about returning to Parliament after major surgery for cancer.

0:38:49 > 0:38:52First though, its time for the Sunday Politics where you are.

0:38:59 > 0:39:01Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.

0:39:01 > 0:39:04Claims of a side-deal over legacy inquests have caused the latest

0:39:04 > 0:39:06ill-tempered fall-out between the two big

0:39:06 > 0:39:08parties at Stormont.

0:39:08 > 0:39:10It raises new questions about just what went on during the recent

0:39:10 > 0:39:13failed negotiations.

0:39:13 > 0:39:14The Victims Commissioner, Judith Thompson, is with me

0:39:14 > 0:39:17to share her thoughts on how the interests of victims might best

0:39:17 > 0:39:19be served in future.

0:39:19 > 0:39:22And here to reflect on another week of revelation and counter-revelation

0:39:22 > 0:39:25are Professor Pete Shirlow and Chris Donnelly.

0:39:31 > 0:39:33It's been a week of claim and counter claim

0:39:33 > 0:39:36over draft agreements and political deal making.

0:39:36 > 0:39:38Blink and you'd have missed the latest twist or turn.

0:39:38 > 0:39:41Here's Gareth Gordon with a reminder of it all -

0:39:41 > 0:39:49in just 60 seconds.

0:39:51 > 0:39:58The agreement is leading a Secretary of State talks about the positives.

0:39:58 > 0:40:07And we believe about progress on the substantial issues being made.

0:40:07 > 0:40:12Sinn Fein the DUP met the Prime Minister in London.

0:40:12 > 0:40:15Whether intentionally or not, Theresa May is facilitating the DUP

0:40:15 > 0:40:21blocking advancement and resolution on these core issues.

0:40:21 > 0:40:27I could not be clearer in relation to the Irish language act, if you

0:40:27 > 0:40:33look at the so-called draft agreement.

0:40:33 > 0:40:37We had agreed the Statute of Limitations. The consultation was

0:40:37 > 0:40:42going to be put out the money was going to be released.

0:40:42 > 0:40:46No such proposal was put to me, and I am not aware of any agreement

0:40:46 > 0:40:49breach between Sinn Fein in the UK Government to hand over money for

0:40:49 > 0:40:54legacy.

0:40:54 > 0:40:58The DUP's Jeffrey Donaldson and Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly debating

0:40:58 > 0:41:00legacy on The View on Thursday night, and that encounter has

0:41:00 > 0:41:03re-shaped the conversation in the past couple of days.

0:41:03 > 0:41:06On Friday Arlene Foster said the DUP was not aware of a deal

0:41:06 > 0:41:09between Sinn Fein and the government on Troubles' inquests

0:41:09 > 0:41:12"in the absence of an overall agreement" - as she put it.

0:41:12 > 0:41:15The NIO issued a statement saying all its discussions

0:41:15 > 0:41:18were in the context of how it would respond to an overall deal.

0:41:18 > 0:41:21Meantime, Sinn Fein's Michelle O'Neill spoke to the Victims'

0:41:21 > 0:41:23Commissioner on Friday to update her on legacy matters -

0:41:23 > 0:41:30and Judith Thompson joins me now.

0:41:30 > 0:41:34Welcome to you, thank you for joining us. Were you convinced that

0:41:34 > 0:41:36telephone conversation you had with Michelle O'Neill that progress was

0:41:36 > 0:41:41made on releasing funds for legacy inquests irrespective of whether or

0:41:41 > 0:41:46not progress was made in the wider negotiations process?

0:41:46 > 0:41:50What I understood from my conversations, I had asked for

0:41:50 > 0:41:53meetings with party leaders and government, but Sinn Fein came back

0:41:53 > 0:41:57to me and offered this debriefing which happened on Friday. What I was

0:41:57 > 0:42:01told was that three things were agreed between Sinn Fein of the

0:42:01 > 0:42:04British government. It was not absolutely clear how far other

0:42:04 > 0:42:10parties were in on that, and that is something I will ask the British

0:42:10 > 0:42:13government. The first of those three things was to release the

0:42:13 > 0:42:16documentation which we now exists, the draft legislation for three

0:42:16 > 0:42:23legacy bodies which will deal with 1700 odd deaths that have not been

0:42:23 > 0:42:28investigated. That will deal with the opportunity for people to get

0:42:28 > 0:42:32their narratives heard when they're worried about what will happen, that

0:42:32 > 0:42:35will deal with information retrieval. Those things come I

0:42:35 > 0:42:39understand talking to all the party leaders, were broadly agreed before

0:42:39 > 0:42:45we even got to the talks. The Secretary of State told my for in

0:42:45 > 0:42:49October, told me this year, that they would go ahead with those with

0:42:49 > 0:42:53or without an assembly. It would not be surprising if that went ahead.

0:42:53 > 0:42:58The second point, which is in the 3-point agreement but Michelle

0:42:58 > 0:43:00O'Neill spoke about, was that there would be funding for legacy

0:43:00 > 0:43:05inquests. That is something which the Chief Justice took responsible

0:43:05 > 0:43:11for two years ago. There are something like 45 backlog inquests.

0:43:11 > 0:43:16He needs funding to do it. It is not part of the Stormont house

0:43:16 > 0:43:20agreement. It is a part of the justice system, which is

0:43:20 > 0:43:22underfunded, and the Chief justice has been forthright that that needs

0:43:22 > 0:43:29to happen. That could happen outside of the context of other things. The

0:43:29 > 0:43:33DUP's view was they wanted historical investigations as well.

0:43:33 > 0:43:35If we have consultation on historical investigations, at some

0:43:35 > 0:43:39point you would expect them to be agreeable to legacy inquests going

0:43:39 > 0:43:43ahead. That second point is not way off beam but it would seem to have

0:43:43 > 0:43:48been contingent on the movement of the historical investigations unit.

0:43:48 > 0:43:54The third thing on the list of points was that there should not

0:43:54 > 0:44:01be... As part of the consultation, they should not be an additional

0:44:01 > 0:44:07discussion on amnesties. This was never part of Stormont house, it is

0:44:07 > 0:44:10something which has entered the debate recently. Following a defence

0:44:10 > 0:44:17committee report. I have spoken, and my for has spoken to all of our five

0:44:17 > 0:44:22party leaders, under the two governments. And none of them told

0:44:22 > 0:44:25us that they were in favour of an amnesty, because it is clear that

0:44:25 > 0:44:32whether to be one -- were there to be one, it would mean none of our

0:44:32 > 0:44:36party leaders felt it would be particularly helpful or popular in

0:44:36 > 0:44:40Northern Ireland. Whilst victims and survivors want different things

0:44:40 > 0:44:45broadly, there was not a welcome for an amnesty.

0:44:45 > 0:44:49It was very clear on Thursday night that there was a sharp exchange of

0:44:49 > 0:44:53views between Jeffrey Donaldson and Gerry Kelly. Much has been made of

0:44:53 > 0:44:58that. Jeffrey Donaldson was very clear. He does not want to see

0:44:58 > 0:45:01movement on those legacy inquests without movement elsewhere. What

0:45:01 > 0:45:05people want to know from you is do you believe that an overarching deal

0:45:05 > 0:45:11between the DUP and Sinn Fein is necessary on the wider legacy issues

0:45:11 > 0:45:16for this process to move forward? Or should it be able to move forward on

0:45:16 > 0:45:20its own merits? I think it is desirable but not

0:45:20 > 0:45:24necessary. Ideal is desirable?

0:45:24 > 0:45:28Ideal is desirable but not necessary. The launch of the legacy

0:45:28 > 0:45:34consultation, it is Westminster legislation, it would always be the

0:45:34 > 0:45:36Secretary of State who launches it. The Secretary of State has been

0:45:36 > 0:45:41saying for months that they will do it. Regardless of whether it will

0:45:41 > 0:45:48implement your. It is just as funding matter. It could be done in

0:45:48 > 0:45:51the absence of an agreement, however, going through a

0:45:51 > 0:45:54consultation process on legislation whilst you have a lot of background

0:45:54 > 0:45:58noise and political disagreement is going to get in the way of

0:45:58 > 0:46:01understanding, it is going to get in the way of proper engagement with

0:46:01 > 0:46:06that consultation, and therefore what would be really desirable would

0:46:06 > 0:46:11be for us to see something, not just agreed between Sinn Fein of the

0:46:11 > 0:46:13British government, but something all of our British politicians could

0:46:13 > 0:46:19say within the margins, we all want to see this consultation go-ahead.

0:46:19 > 0:46:22Because it is quite balanced package. Clearly Unionists are

0:46:22 > 0:46:26unhappy with the unilateral of the £10 million for the legacy inquests.

0:46:26 > 0:46:30Arlene Foster has claimed that, Jeffrey Donaldson, others have

0:46:30 > 0:46:33explained that in the past. But there are other elements in the

0:46:33 > 0:46:36overarching package which could balance that up and are more to the

0:46:36 > 0:46:41taste of Unionists. Within those historical

0:46:41 > 0:46:44investigations, they are not unbalanced. It would redress the

0:46:44 > 0:46:49issue that the DUP have, which is that they feel that most of the 45

0:46:49 > 0:46:56legacy inquests tends to be of state actions. That will be redress its --

0:46:56 > 0:47:02redressed. 1700 deaths, it would be balanced. That would redress that

0:47:02 > 0:47:07problem. Is it not the case that the

0:47:07 > 0:47:10responsibility rests with the Secretary of State and the British

0:47:10 > 0:47:12government to movable package together to the benefit of everyone,

0:47:12 > 0:47:17to take it outside the political negotiation which doesn't seem to be

0:47:17 > 0:47:20going anywhere fast at the moment, and think about the interests of all

0:47:20 > 0:47:25of the victims of 40 years of the troubles? Would you like to see that

0:47:25 > 0:47:28happen? I would like to see it go to a

0:47:28 > 0:47:32consultation which is not marred or undermined by political fighting

0:47:32 > 0:47:36over something which, fundamentally, these parties are not 1 million

0:47:36 > 0:47:40miles apart on. When you put them in a television

0:47:40 > 0:47:42studio and speak to them about this, you could be forgiven for thinking

0:47:42 > 0:47:45that there is an enormous gulf between them. But when you start

0:47:45 > 0:47:50looking at the detail of what they are saying and you start stripping

0:47:50 > 0:47:55back some of the wild claims and more extravagant comments that are

0:47:55 > 0:48:00made, in fact does not appeal to be a great deal separating them.

0:48:00 > 0:48:04I would agree, and that is why it is important that a disagreement about

0:48:04 > 0:48:07how things were agreed does not get in the way of a package which is to

0:48:07 > 0:48:16the benefit of people in Kings Mills as much as in Bali Murphy. This

0:48:16 > 0:48:19affects all of our people across Northern Ireland regardless of

0:48:19 > 0:48:22community background. The DUP are conscious of that. They have many

0:48:22 > 0:48:25ex-members of the security forces who are looking for investigations

0:48:25 > 0:48:31and inquests. Those things offer them as well. If I could also say,

0:48:31 > 0:48:36there are two other things happening here. The pension for the severely

0:48:36 > 0:48:39disabled, we were told that would be a devolved matter once we have a

0:48:39 > 0:48:45Assembly. Without legislation from Westminster, those 500 people who

0:48:45 > 0:48:48were severely injured are sitting and waiting, and that is utterly

0:48:48 > 0:48:53unacceptable. We also need to address the matter of unit which

0:48:53 > 0:48:57will do an acknowledgement, which needs to be looked at. And we have

0:48:57 > 0:49:01policy, and we do not need legislation, for a mental health

0:49:01 > 0:49:05service, but we do not have a budget. In the absence of ministers

0:49:05 > 0:49:07and the government, that is a problem.

0:49:07 > 0:49:11I know you are to meet all of the main parties and also the Secretary

0:49:11 > 0:49:16of State in the near future. Do you believe that this process can put

0:49:16 > 0:49:20out a consultation sooner rather than later? As Sinn Fein says should

0:49:20 > 0:49:25happen, the DUP has the view that that ought not to happen in the

0:49:25 > 0:49:29absence of a bigger deal. Do you think the process to be moved

0:49:29 > 0:49:32forward by Karen Bradley in the next couple of weeks?

0:49:32 > 0:49:38I do. There are people marching in Belfast for the truth, people who've

0:49:38 > 0:49:42waited for decades for inquests and investigations. And the same people

0:49:42 > 0:49:45exist in every constituency. It is really important we deal with this

0:49:45 > 0:49:51stuff, and an argument between the parties in a political context must

0:49:51 > 0:49:55not get in the way of things which they properly or an agreement in.

0:49:55 > 0:50:00Jeffrey Donaldson was very clear the other night. He has no problem with

0:50:00 > 0:50:04the consultation on the legacy mechanisms going forward. If they

0:50:04 > 0:50:08deal with the issue of balance, I do not see why they would have a major

0:50:08 > 0:50:14issue over inquests, which should be funded and cannot be funded. In

0:50:14 > 0:50:18Northern Ireland, none of our political parties leaders feel

0:50:18 > 0:50:21Statute of Limitations be helpful anyway.

0:50:21 > 0:50:25That is not necessarily the case across the water.

0:50:25 > 0:50:27But here in Northern Ireland, where it matters most.

0:50:27 > 0:50:32Very interesting to hear your thoughts, Judith Thompson, thank you

0:50:32 > 0:50:32for coming in.

0:50:32 > 0:50:35Let's see what my guests of the day make of that.

0:50:35 > 0:50:38I'm joined by Pete Shirlow and Chris Donnelly.

0:50:38 > 0:50:42Chris, yet again it looks as if victims are cotton the middle of

0:50:42 > 0:50:49political crossfire? It is. Yesterday, there was a

0:50:49 > 0:50:53memorial parade in the city centre of Belfast for two men killed by the

0:50:53 > 0:50:58IRA. There is a parade by primarily victims of British forces calling

0:50:58 > 0:51:03for the truth. This is happening regularly. It is important to hear

0:51:03 > 0:51:06the comments from the Victims Commissioner, and plea that the

0:51:06 > 0:51:10British government now has the opposition -- opportunity to move

0:51:10 > 0:51:17forward on the consultation. Simultaneously, the legacy inquests

0:51:17 > 0:51:21funding could be released. The opposition to that is coming from

0:51:21 > 0:51:27the DUP. Arlene Foster used the term astonishing to suggest that would be

0:51:27 > 0:51:31her reaction if the wind moves in that direction. The collars with the

0:51:31 > 0:51:36Secretary of State at the moment. Pete, some people assume there is an

0:51:36 > 0:51:39enormous gulf between the DUP and Sinn Fein on this. The Victims

0:51:39 > 0:51:43Commissioner suggesting that in her view that gulf is not necessarily as

0:51:43 > 0:51:49wide as many people... And maybe the politicians themselves believe.

0:51:49 > 0:51:51We have got an excellent Victims Commissioner, someone who is

0:51:51 > 0:51:59forensic and incredibly fair. Nobody would have any problems with that

0:51:59 > 0:52:03analysis, very important in such a contentious and difficult issue.

0:52:03 > 0:52:07What is important is the whole process in which, you hear the

0:52:07 > 0:52:11background noise and the anger, that is what we here in the TV studios.

0:52:11 > 0:52:15But in society more broadly, over the last 20 years ago have come to

0:52:15 > 0:52:20start to recognise and discuss these issues much more intimately, much

0:52:20 > 0:52:24more fairly, and much more justly. We have got to this stage, and I

0:52:24 > 0:52:30think the agreement did show political maturity, we have this

0:52:30 > 0:52:33process, we know some families really want it to go down the

0:52:33 > 0:52:39justice route. Families simply want to know what happened and it's to go

0:52:39 > 0:52:43further, that they have some recognition from those who harmed

0:52:43 > 0:52:47their loved ones. And the final strategy is that we look at what

0:52:47 > 0:52:50will happen, who is responsible, what harmed this caused to our

0:52:50 > 0:52:56society. That to me was incredibly aggressive in dealing with these

0:52:56 > 0:53:00complexities. We know that is there and will continue to be there, as

0:53:00 > 0:53:04the work of all of us will continue to drive that process forward.

0:53:04 > 0:53:08Chris, a lot of people say the political process has been held up

0:53:08 > 0:53:11by a failure to agree on the poisonous issue of legacy. If you

0:53:11 > 0:53:15turn it on its head, and if there is the agreement that Judith Thompson

0:53:15 > 0:53:21has just suggested may in fact exist, it is possible, is it? Do you

0:53:21 > 0:53:24agree, this thing could be drawn by moving forward on all the different

0:53:24 > 0:53:29aspects of legacy. That may help the political discourse.

0:53:29 > 0:53:33There might be consensus outside of the DUP that those legacy issues

0:53:33 > 0:53:37could be moved forward and separated from the political process. The

0:53:37 > 0:53:41problem remains, the DUP at the leadership level are saying now,

0:53:41 > 0:53:48they would be very unhappy with that. They are going to come back to

0:53:48 > 0:53:51the Secretary of State, people will be watching very closely to see if

0:53:51 > 0:53:53the British government is willing to do that.

0:53:53 > 0:53:55We will speak to you later in the programme.

0:53:55 > 0:53:58The Republic took another step towards an abortion referendum this

0:53:58 > 0:54:00week with the Cabinet agreeing that voters should be asked

0:54:00 > 0:54:02to repeal the 8th amendment to the constitution and allow

0:54:02 > 0:54:04the legislature to deal in future with the issue

0:54:04 > 0:54:05of pregnancy termination.

0:54:05 > 0:54:08The 8th amendment gives an equal right to life to the mother

0:54:08 > 0:54:10and to the unborn child.

0:54:10 > 0:54:11Our Dublin Correspondent, Shane Harrison, begins his report

0:54:11 > 0:54:19with a very personal story.

0:54:19 > 0:54:23Tara Flynn is an actress and comedian. She is about to do

0:54:23 > 0:54:30something very, very rare for an Irishwoman. Talk on camera about a

0:54:30 > 0:54:35very, very private matter. Her decision to terminate a crisis

0:54:35 > 0:54:38pregnancy after a failure of contraception when, duelling a very

0:54:38 > 0:54:44difficult period in her life, at a time when she could not cope.

0:54:44 > 0:54:47I just knew it, my body knew before my brain did, but I needed an

0:54:47 > 0:54:51abortion and I knew nothing about them, because we did not talk about

0:54:51 > 0:54:54them at all in Ireland. Tara says most people who know her

0:54:54 > 0:54:58story have been very kind and understanding. But not all of them.

0:54:58 > 0:55:04I have been called a murder, and I know that I am not. That is all that

0:55:04 > 0:55:08matters. That is how I sleep at night, I 100% do not believe that,

0:55:08 > 0:55:13because I do not equate a foetus with a living and breathing person.

0:55:13 > 0:55:18And when I speak to other people less extreme viewed people, they

0:55:18 > 0:55:25will often say, when I say, do you think I am a murder, they say no! I

0:55:25 > 0:55:30say, do you think I should be in prison, they do not believe that,

0:55:30 > 0:55:34they feel discomfort, but they have not got the space to think about it.

0:55:34 > 0:55:36Abortion is something people in the Republic are going to have to think

0:55:36 > 0:55:41a lot about in the coming weeks and months. With a referendum to repeal

0:55:41 > 0:55:44the eighth Amendment to the Constitution provisionally scheduled

0:55:44 > 0:55:49for the end of May. The 1983 Amendment gives equal rights to life

0:55:49 > 0:55:52to the mother and to the unborn. But it has not stopped. Tens of

0:55:52 > 0:55:58thousands of Irish women travelling abroad to end their pregnancy. The

0:55:58 > 0:56:05latest official government figures show nine per day leaving for the

0:56:05 > 0:56:09UK, and for per day importing pills from the Internet to induce a

0:56:09 > 0:56:15termination

0:56:15 > 0:56:18termination without a prescription. Pro-life groups, who disputed the

0:56:18 > 0:56:20abortion pill numbers, will be campaigning to save the eighth

0:56:20 > 0:56:24Amendment, saying that there are two sets of human rights at stake, that

0:56:24 > 0:56:30of the mother and of the unborn. I think we have heard the word

0:56:30 > 0:56:33reality being used a lot in the debate recently called up one

0:56:33 > 0:56:37reality is being ignored, and that is the reality that abortion kills a

0:56:37 > 0:56:41baby and hurts and women. And we have a very low abortion rate here

0:56:41 > 0:56:48in Ireland. The number of Irishwoman having abortions has fallen, and

0:56:48 > 0:56:55that whole big -- fall began before abortion pills became available.

0:56:55 > 0:56:59Less women are having abortions precisely because Irish society

0:56:59 > 0:57:00became more tolerant and compassionate and with better

0:57:00 > 0:57:04support. When people go to the polls, they

0:57:04 > 0:57:10will be given to understand if they vote to repeal they will also be

0:57:10 > 0:57:12voting to allow unrestricted access to abortion for the first 12 weeks

0:57:12 > 0:57:18of pregnancy. Fundamentally for me what this means

0:57:18 > 0:57:20is not trusting politicians, it means trusting women and their

0:57:20 > 0:57:23doctors, and trusting women in the first 12 weeks of their pregnancy to

0:57:23 > 0:57:26decide what is best for them, whether or not they want to continue

0:57:26 > 0:57:31that pregnancy, and beyond 12 weeks trusting doctors to allow it on

0:57:31 > 0:57:36medical grounds. If the people vote for a repeal the

0:57:36 > 0:57:44is no guarantee the 12 weeks the portal would be passed. And other

0:57:44 > 0:57:48comments might add to the confusion. He has said he is in favour of

0:57:48 > 0:57:53repeal, but he is not happy with the 12 week was afterwards. And that

0:57:53 > 0:57:58think that is where there will be problems for government. He has

0:57:58 > 0:58:03given political cover to some other anti-abortion politicians, and I

0:58:03 > 0:58:08think that will make things quite tricky for Leo Varadkar.

0:58:08 > 0:58:14It is still early days, but one logician who wants to save the

0:58:14 > 0:58:17eighth Amendment says she will have to respect the results, and if need

0:58:17 > 0:58:23be, vote for 12 weeks, the cost in the Republic, unlike the UK, it is

0:58:23 > 0:58:27people not the parliament that is sovereign.

0:58:27 > 0:58:30I am pro-life, but I also believe I do not have the right to tell a

0:58:30 > 0:58:34woman or another person what to do. But that is my own decision.

0:58:34 > 0:58:38Everybody should get out and vote. As a legislator, I am saying I will

0:58:38 > 0:58:44work for the will of the people with what ever the result is.

0:58:44 > 0:58:47In the meantime, activists on both sides of the argument are preparing

0:58:47 > 0:58:52for future battles. For those supporting repeal, it is about

0:58:52 > 0:58:56facing up to reality and no longer colluding in a lie at a time when

0:58:56 > 0:59:03Ireland exports its abortion problem and imports its solutions.

0:59:03 > 0:59:06The question is, would you for someone to remain pregnant against

0:59:06 > 0:59:09their will? And if you would, how would you enforce that, how does

0:59:09 > 0:59:16that look, do you detain me, do you shackle my hands, do you do

0:59:16 > 0:59:21pregnancy test at the airport? It does not work, you cannot legislate

0:59:21 > 0:59:24for it, let's acknowledge it happens, it has always happened, it

0:59:24 > 0:59:27will always happen, and let's keep people safe.

0:59:27 > 0:59:32But for the pro-life side, the Republic is at a crossroads facing

0:59:32 > 0:59:35fundamental questions. Do we want to be a society which

0:59:35 > 0:59:38loves and protects both mother and baby, recognising both

0:59:38 > 0:59:42vulnerabilities, or do we want to be a society that decides when there is

0:59:42 > 0:59:48a problem, we will kill the child? This is the grave of 15-year-old and

0:59:48 > 0:59:50Lovett, who died alone, four months after the eighth Amendment was

0:59:50 > 0:59:55passed. Edinburgh to a son who also died. She passed away on a cold

0:59:55 > 1:00:00January morning in a grotto behind the Catholic Church in Co Longford.

1:00:00 > 1:00:05The referendum will be the latest chapter in how voters in the

1:00:05 > 1:00:10Republic, with its past of mother and baby homes with unmarked graves,

1:00:10 > 1:00:13face up to the problems posed by crisis pregnancies.

1:00:13 > 1:00:14Shane Harrison reporting.

1:00:14 > 1:00:16And let's have a final

1:00:16 > 1:00:19word with Pete Shirlow and Chris Donnelly.

1:00:19 > 1:00:24Chris, Nigel Dodds has been saying he does not see devolution coming

1:00:24 > 1:00:28back in the short-term. Tony Blair talking about Brexit and the Good

1:00:28 > 1:00:30Friday Agreement. Where are we in the next couple of weeks?

1:00:30 > 1:00:34The fallout will continue from the breakdown in the talks. But the

1:00:34 > 1:00:42draft agreement, it is really going to be as good as it gets. I can only

1:00:42 > 1:00:46imagine that any deal is going to look very close to that. If the

1:00:46 > 1:00:50British government is able to move independently on their own to move

1:00:50 > 1:00:53towards implementing elements of that, it might actually help us get

1:00:53 > 1:00:54to that point sooner rather than later.

1:00:54 > 1:00:59Pete? This is the point for civic

1:00:59 > 1:01:04leadership, we have to stand up and talk across the sectarian divide,

1:01:04 > 1:01:07the traditional divide, talk about tolerance and respect. When people

1:01:07 > 1:01:10spoke about the Good Friday Agreement, being over, that is

1:01:10 > 1:01:16nonsense. The Good Friday and Belfast agreement was a people's

1:01:16 > 1:01:20process. We had a move to being a much better society than we were.

1:01:20 > 1:01:25The civic leadership comes to the fore and makes it clear that that is

1:01:25 > 1:01:28the type of tolerant and fair society we want.

1:01:28 > 1:01:34Is there a public appetite for that changed debate, perhaps?

1:01:34 > 1:01:38Perhaps what needed to happen was the agreement being leaked, people

1:01:38 > 1:01:42will perhaps get to look at the details of that and come to terms

1:01:42 > 1:01:48with it. In that sense, whenever talks are convened, as they will

1:01:48 > 1:01:50need to be in the future, that might be the basis upon which they will be

1:01:50 > 1:01:53able to agree. We will leave it there, gentlemen.

1:01:53 > 1:01:54That's it.

1:01:54 > 1:01:59Back to Sarah in London.

1:01:59 > 1:02:02Welcome back.

1:02:02 > 1:02:04Now, he was the Northern Ireland Secretary at a crucial time

1:02:04 > 1:02:06in UK-Ireland relations.

1:02:06 > 1:02:10But late last year, James Brokenshire realised

1:02:10 > 1:02:12he had a health problem, when he began coughing up blood

1:02:12 > 1:02:14whilst on a break with his family.

1:02:14 > 1:02:17Tests revealed a cancerous lesion on his lung and at the start

1:02:17 > 1:02:19of the year he announced his resignation from the Cabinet

1:02:19 > 1:02:23to undergo major surgery.

1:02:23 > 1:02:26His operation was a success and, a few short weeks after being

1:02:26 > 1:02:27discharged from hospital, he has returned to Parliament

1:02:27 > 1:02:30and I'm delighted to say he's also joined us now.

1:02:30 > 1:02:31Welcome to the programme.

1:02:31 > 1:02:36Thank you very much, good to be back.How are you feeling?

1:02:36 > 1:02:41Remarkably well, very strong. First week back in Parliament, which was

1:02:41 > 1:02:45quite emotional, people coming up and giving you hugs. It's

1:02:45 > 1:02:52interesting how something like this, from across the comparative party, a

1:02:52 > 1:02:56unifying issue, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Nicky Morgan, coming and welcoming

1:02:56 > 1:03:02you back. And Labour MPs, SNP MPs and the Lib Dems, real warmth. It is

1:03:02 > 1:03:06a rarity, as we know at times, where some of the political bait is very

1:03:06 > 1:03:13intense, to have that very warm reception. So I was very moved.You

1:03:13 > 1:03:17look very vigorous, it is only about six weeks?About six weeks. The care

1:03:17 > 1:03:22and support I received from the NHS was absolutely outstanding. I just

1:03:22 > 1:03:27could not fault the hospital treatment that I received. I suppose

1:03:27 > 1:03:31being disciplined about getting back, getting myself fit, forcing

1:03:31 > 1:03:38myself to do lots of exercise, do lots of walks, having Cassiem my

1:03:38 > 1:03:40children, strong family support behind me as well, it has just been

1:03:40 > 1:03:47amazing. The number of people that are written in, e-mailed, wishing me

1:03:47 > 1:03:50and, whether they support my own party or not, just wanting me to do

1:03:50 > 1:03:54well. So yes, positive. The prognosis is good. I think I was

1:03:54 > 1:04:00lucky that I was able to pick it up early enough. But it has I think

1:04:00 > 1:04:07underlying to me a number of issues about lung cancer, as I had a small

1:04:07 > 1:04:11cancerous Schumer, where there is some stigma Ramis. Around 15% of

1:04:11 > 1:04:16cases of lung cancer have no link to smoking. I think people try and form

1:04:16 > 1:04:19some judgments, that is someone's fault. People shouldn't do that at

1:04:19 > 1:04:24all about cancer. It is about early intervention, picking it up early,

1:04:24 > 1:04:28following it through. There are many moments where I could have said, too

1:04:28 > 1:04:32busy, can't actually do this, but following that through, getting the

1:04:32 > 1:04:36treatment I needed, I am so delighted to be here feeling as

1:04:36 > 1:04:40strong as I am.You are having these tests at a fairly crucial time in

1:04:40 > 1:04:44the Brexit negotiations. You where Northern Ireland Secretary and at

1:04:44 > 1:04:47the very point when the Prime Minister was having to put together

1:04:47 > 1:04:51a deal acceptable to the EU and DUP about what was going to happen to

1:04:51 > 1:04:55prevent a hard border across Ireland at the end of last year, when you

1:04:55 > 1:04:58are still Northern Ireland Secretary, I am sure you have kept

1:04:58 > 1:05:01up with this even though you are now on the backbenches. We have been

1:05:01 > 1:05:05speaking on the programme about the possibility of a customs union with

1:05:05 > 1:05:11the EU. Is it necessary to have one in order to avoid a hard border on

1:05:11 > 1:05:15the island of Ireland?Last time I was here we were touching on that

1:05:15 > 1:05:20issue and the first phase negotiations that had concluded. In

1:05:20 > 1:05:23essence, the three elements we look at, in essence the negotiations on

1:05:23 > 1:05:30the trade arrangement with the EU, if that does provide the issues

1:05:30 > 1:05:32around the border, then specific proposals the UK Government would

1:05:32 > 1:05:35then make and that Ms backstop of alignment to deal with the

1:05:35 > 1:05:41North-South issues.That was a remarkable thing, because you've

1:05:41 > 1:05:45promised full alignment with the rules of the internal market and

1:05:45 > 1:05:50Customs union, basically keeping, in essence, the UK in the single market

1:05:50 > 1:05:54and Customs union if some other solution is found.It is also

1:05:54 > 1:05:56looking at the equivalence issues, of how you can create the same

1:05:56 > 1:06:00outcomes without having full alignment. I think that is

1:06:00 > 1:06:04important. This whole debate around the customs union actually comes

1:06:04 > 1:06:08down to, what is our future relationship with the EU? Do we

1:06:08 > 1:06:12need, as I believe we do, to be able to negotiate agreements externally,

1:06:12 > 1:06:18do we ensure we are not simply a rule taker, that we just abide by

1:06:18 > 1:06:22the rules and almost we voted to leave the EU but we are now even in

1:06:22 > 1:06:27a worse situation of actually being subject to everything but without a

1:06:27 > 1:06:32say at all. I just don't see that as tenable.Yet that is exactly the

1:06:32 > 1:06:36situation we find ourselves in is another solution to the Irish border

1:06:36 > 1:06:40isn't found, isn't it? That is what the Prime Minister signed up to,

1:06:40 > 1:06:43full alignment with the single market and customs union unless

1:06:43 > 1:06:47there is another agreement, which we haven't seen emerge?I believe we

1:06:47 > 1:06:51can agree with the EU, this free trade agreement, deals for goods and

1:06:51 > 1:06:55services, because it is the services element that is really crucial to

1:06:55 > 1:07:03this as well. Whilst also ensuring yes, we don't have that hard border

1:07:03 > 1:07:06emerging on the island of Ireland with everything that goes with it.

1:07:06 > 1:07:09The regulatory issues, yes, there are differences that already exist

1:07:09 > 1:07:11between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, particularly around some

1:07:11 > 1:07:15animal health and animal welfare issues. There is experience we can

1:07:15 > 1:07:18point to and there is a way forward, as to how we negotiate this in the

1:07:18 > 1:07:22weeks I had to get that right outcome.It needs to be started on.

1:07:22 > 1:07:25Michel Barnier wants an agreement about the Irish border before we

1:07:25 > 1:07:32move on to talking about the future trade relationship?The first phase,

1:07:32 > 1:07:35it's a tiered basis approach that we take on how it is about the broad

1:07:35 > 1:07:39issues first and how I believe we can negotiate an outcome that deals

1:07:39 > 1:07:43with the very sensitive issues of the Good Friday Agreement, the

1:07:43 > 1:07:46Belfast agreement, and also the broader issues and North-South

1:07:46 > 1:07:49co-operation on the island of Ireland. So it actually it's about

1:07:49 > 1:07:53going to back to those first phase negotiations, following it through

1:07:53 > 1:07:57and getting the right outcome for the island of Ireland, Northern

1:07:57 > 1:08:00Ireland and the UK as a whole.Some of your colleagues who want to make

1:08:00 > 1:08:03out the Irish border is something of a side issue we shouldn't get too

1:08:03 > 1:08:07worried about say things like the Good Friday Agreement is out of

1:08:07 > 1:08:11date. You must be worried when you hear them say things like that? You

1:08:11 > 1:08:14understand how sensitive it is?When I return to Parliament and made my

1:08:14 > 1:08:19first interventionist league, I was very clear on how the Belfast

1:08:19 > 1:08:24agreement, Good Friday Agreement underpins the situation, the whole

1:08:24 > 1:08:27freedoms and arrangements on the island of Ireland, how it remains as

1:08:27 > 1:08:33relevant now as it has ever done. I know some people picked up on does

1:08:33 > 1:08:38this define Brexit? I think actually there is a ground of commonality and

1:08:38 > 1:08:43realising how important this is. Yes, over time it maybe there are

1:08:43 > 1:08:46certain issues in slower time, once we get devolved government backed up

1:08:46 > 1:08:50and running that you could review, could look at this in a sensible

1:08:50 > 1:08:55fashion. There are certain things that perhaps people have pointed to,

1:08:55 > 1:08:58mandatory coalitions of devolved government in Northern Ireland,

1:08:58 > 1:09:01questioned if that is still the right way forward. That is a

1:09:01 > 1:09:05separate issue, that is in slower time. The Good Friday and Belfast

1:09:05 > 1:09:09agreement continues to underpin and needs to define how we look to the

1:09:09 > 1:09:12future.James Brokenshire, stay with us. We will bring in some of the

1:09:12 > 1:09:17rest of the panel. As you see it, is essentially the question of the

1:09:17 > 1:09:21border with Ireland always going to underline the Brexit talks and

1:09:21 > 1:09:24always be a problem, something difficult for hard Brexiteers who

1:09:24 > 1:09:28want nothing to do with the customs union to get around?It will always

1:09:28 > 1:09:32be a problem until there is a solution. The Irish government

1:09:32 > 1:09:36doesn't want to border, the British government doesn't want border,

1:09:36 > 1:09:39European union doesn't want a border. You have everybody trying to

1:09:39 > 1:09:45go to the point. There was a speech last September in Belfast, you were

1:09:45 > 1:09:49probably there, where it was suggested there should be a customs

1:09:49 > 1:09:54arrangement between Britain and the European Union, between Britain and

1:09:54 > 1:09:59the Republic of Ireland. He suggested that himself. From the

1:09:59 > 1:10:02Torquay, talks is giving at the moment you would think he had never

1:10:02 > 1:10:06said that. I don't know what form that would take but surely if you

1:10:06 > 1:10:09have all three parties to these agreements wanting the same outcome,

1:10:09 > 1:10:15there ought to be a way of doing this.A lot of other things people

1:10:15 > 1:10:20in the EU have said means the means of getting to that outcome is

1:10:20 > 1:10:27difficult?The outcome is easy, everyone agrees. Like the war in

1:10:27 > 1:10:30Iraq, everyone agreed, they wanted peace in the Middle East, how do you

1:10:30 > 1:10:35get there? The fact they all agree on the end is not that significant.

1:10:35 > 1:10:39Indeed, the first phase negotiation which you were nobly involved with,

1:10:39 > 1:10:43and of going tests on Don, reminds me of that first UN resolution in

1:10:43 > 1:10:47the build-up to the war in Iraq. Everyone could sign up to it because

1:10:47 > 1:10:52it meant different things to different people. This is the

1:10:52 > 1:10:55problem, as you know. The Irish government viewed it differently to

1:10:55 > 1:10:57the British government, who viewed it differently from the rest of the

1:10:57 > 1:11:02EU. Now we come to the crunch. I can see no way forward beyond some

1:11:02 > 1:11:05continued membership of the customs union. You can't have a separate

1:11:05 > 1:11:09arrangement for Northern Ireland, the DUP wouldn't buy it for a start.

1:11:09 > 1:11:13I gather that is one of the main reasons why Jeremy Corbyn, was a

1:11:13 > 1:11:16sceptic about all of this, is signing up to it, because he sees

1:11:16 > 1:11:23now this is the only way of keeping the open border.Talking of Jeremy

1:11:23 > 1:11:27Corbyn, one issue we haven't touched on is a story that has been running

1:11:27 > 1:11:30all week about Corbyn's contacts with so-called Czechoslovakian

1:11:30 > 1:11:34agent. It was interesting, the way it is played out, he attacked the

1:11:34 > 1:11:38newspapers for running the stories, really strong attacks from some Tory

1:11:38 > 1:11:44MPs against him which looks like they may have rebounded a bit?The

1:11:44 > 1:11:47thing looking back

1:11:47 > 1:11:47which has become clear that has come out of this Jeremy Corbyn question

1:11:47 > 1:11:50is Labour know exactly what they

1:11:50 > 1:11:51out of this Jeremy Corbyn question doing when it comes to social media

1:11:51 > 1:11:52out of this Jeremy Corbyn question and the Conservatives still probably

1:11:52 > 1:11:57don't. If you look at the way Jeremy Corbyn

1:11:57 > 1:11:58don't. If you look at the way Jeremy his Nvidia and put it out on YouTube

1:11:58 > 1:12:02and Twitter and it got thousands and thousands and thousands of hits.

1:12:02 > 1:12:06and Twitter and it got thousands and Rush might he made his own

1:12:06 > 1:12:07and Twitter and it got thousands and didn't need to speak to newspapers

1:12:07 > 1:12:12or television to do it. It allows free rein to

1:12:12 > 1:12:13or television to do it. It allows this, where Jeremy Corbyn does

1:12:13 > 1:12:15actually have real questions to

1:12:15 > 1:12:17this, where Jeremy Corbyn does answer. Whether you think it is

1:12:17 > 1:12:18answer. Whether you think it is right or wrong or right or wrong he

1:12:18 > 1:12:23was giving state secrets, he still met this person and that is

1:12:23 > 1:12:24was giving state secrets, he still question he has to answer. Brendan

1:12:24 > 1:12:26Bradley has had to apologise for

1:12:26 > 1:12:31question he has to answer. Brendan Tweety made. I think one point about

1:12:31 > 1:12:31question he has to answer. Brendan this that we should all take away is

1:12:31 > 1:12:35his apology has been re-tweeted and is now an attack line and is vicious

1:12:35 > 1:12:40is now an attack line and is vicious and picked -- vindictive

1:12:40 > 1:12:41is now an attack line and is vicious people need to be kinder to each

1:12:41 > 1:12:44other.There was no evidence he was selling state secrets or knew any

1:12:44 > 1:12:49state secrets to give away for free, which is why you have this sense

1:12:49 > 1:12:50state secrets to give away for free, that actually the Tories went

1:12:50 > 1:12:52state secrets to give away for free, little too far in describing him

1:12:52 > 1:12:54state secrets to give away for free, a traitor, saying he betrayed

1:12:54 > 1:12:55state secrets to give away for free, country and they were the ones...

1:12:55 > 1:13:00Hang on a minute, it was one MP that got taken to task for that.He's now

1:13:00 > 1:13:04been forced to apologise. The Defence Secretary said he betrayed

1:13:04 > 1:13:09his country.You said the whole Tory party, yes there were attacks on

1:13:09 > 1:13:10his country.You said the whole Tory Jeremy Corbyn and there still are in

1:13:10 > 1:13:15his country.You said the whole Tory the media. The Sunday time -- Sunday

1:13:15 > 1:13:20Times today has a 2-page spread today. Anyone under the age of 40

1:13:20 > 1:13:27just discount this sort of thing. It just discount this sort of thing. It

1:13:27 > 1:13:29is like in the general section, the stories had no effect on people

1:13:29 > 1:13:32stories had no effect on people leave it there, thank you all for

1:13:32 > 1:13:36leave it there, thank you

1:13:36 > 1:13:38Until then, bye-bye.