:01:37. > :01:40.On the Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland: only a third of benefit
:01:40. > :01:50.claimants to her unfit to work. We asked the social benefits Minister
:01:50. > :01:50.
:01:50. > :32:10.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1820 seconds
:32:10. > :32:16.how the others are going to find a Hello and welcome to Sunday
:32:16. > :32:19.Politics in Northern Ireland. It's all about helping people to get
:32:19. > :32:29.back into work - that is the Government's rationale for its
:32:29. > :32:32.
:32:32. > :32:37.controversial review of people on incapacity benefits. Today we can
:32:37. > :32:47.reveal what come into the Sirte -- first batch of people who have been
:32:47. > :32:53.
:32:53. > :33:02.reassessed. There is no work out Bertie Aherne it resigned from
:33:02. > :33:07.Fianna Fail last night. Did he jump before he was pushed? There had
:33:08. > :33:13.been due to be a meeting later this week to discuss the expulsion of
:33:13. > :33:16.Bertie Ahern. It is likely that would have taken that move. His
:33:16. > :33:21.resignation has forestalled cat. There was a sense that he was up
:33:21. > :33:31.against it after the tribunal decided it did not believe it it --
:33:31. > :33:32.
:33:32. > :33:35.believe his evidence on financial irregularities. He says that he
:33:35. > :33:40.rejects that findings of the tribunal and that he will fight to
:33:40. > :33:45.clear his name and that this is no admission of wrongdoing. He says it
:33:45. > :33:50.is a political decision because it would create crude division within
:33:50. > :33:55.Fianna Fail. He has taken this action today and it is really a
:33:55. > :33:58.story of somebody having fallen from a very great height. One
:33:59. > :34:02.thinks back to 1998 in his role in the cosy tint the Good Friday
:34:02. > :34:12.Agreement. Nobody could have predicted it would come to this
:34:12. > :34:14.
:34:14. > :34:16.past. It is just over a year since the
:34:16. > :34:18.Department of Social Development began reassessing the estimated
:34:18. > :34:22.76,000 people who claim incapacity benefit here. The process will not
:34:22. > :34:32.be completed until 2014, but we can now reveal the results of the first
:34:32. > :34:34.
:34:34. > :34:39.batch of people to be reviewed. 24 % of people have had the benefit
:34:39. > :34:46.removed and 46 % have been ruled fit for work. 30 % were found to be
:34:46. > :34:54.unfit for work. Of the 2000 or so people who were told their
:34:54. > :34:58.incapacity benefit was being cut, 1382 appealed the decision. So far
:34:58. > :35:08.247 appeals have been completed and 40 % of those were successful. We
:35:08. > :35:11.
:35:11. > :35:16.will hear from the minister shortly, but first let's talk to Ian Parsley.
:35:16. > :35:19.Also, to Kevin Higgins from advice Northern Ireland. They are is a
:35:19. > :35:24.concern that some of the assessments will need to be
:35:24. > :35:29.revealed and there is no doubt there will be a number of appeals.
:35:29. > :35:34.My concerns are more for the people who go into those appeals processes
:35:34. > :35:38.and the uncertainty that they face rather than the government spending
:35:38. > :35:43.around them. It is important early in the debate to frame it correctly,
:35:43. > :35:46.that the objectives of welfare reform are to simplify the system,
:35:47. > :35:50.protect the tax payer and incentivise work. The outcome of
:35:50. > :35:55.welfare reform has to be judge and whether or not it has achieved that.
:35:55. > :36:05.I think your viewers would agree with those principles, but as the
:36:05. > :36:05.
:36:06. > :36:11.implementation match but the eerie? Kevin, are people worried about
:36:11. > :36:15.this? I think it is useful to go back to the background of this.
:36:15. > :36:19.Under the previous Labour government there was a policy
:36:19. > :36:23.statement in 2007 and the goal was to get 1 million people off
:36:23. > :36:26.incapacity benefit. That set the trend that people may be find it
:36:26. > :36:30.increasingly difficult to believe that government and the policy
:36:30. > :36:35.makers are interested in helping people make the journey from
:36:35. > :36:44.welfare to work. The concern is that the government are just
:36:44. > :36:50.interested in getting them off benefits. The unemployment register
:36:50. > :36:54.will grow significantly over the next couple of years. I have been
:36:54. > :36:58.speaking to the Social Development Minister, Nelson McCausland. There
:36:58. > :37:03.are a number of different departments involved in this and
:37:03. > :37:09.alongside the welfare reform programme, we also need the work
:37:09. > :37:14.programme. There are two sides to this. That is the responsibility of
:37:14. > :37:20.another department. There will be a work programme in place and that
:37:20. > :37:28.will provide assistance. There are people who perhaps have had no
:37:28. > :37:30.experience of work at Old, people who might lack some basic skills to
:37:30. > :37:37.get them into employment. That is the sort of work there will be
:37:37. > :37:42.undertaken by a work programme. That would have to be specific to
:37:42. > :37:47.Northern Ireland. Are you happy that that is not in place? These
:37:47. > :37:51.people are being reassessed now. They are moving on to other
:37:51. > :37:57.programmes that are already there, but the full package of welfare
:37:58. > :38:05.reform... we do have programmes like back to work, steps to work,
:38:05. > :38:09.Surrey. And when the imagine this will take place. I appreciate it is
:38:09. > :38:16.another department, but there must be a sense of urgency to get a
:38:16. > :38:24.proper work programme in place. There is urgency about it. I am
:38:24. > :38:28.sure that's it will be taken bored with the urgency. High have you any
:38:28. > :38:36.idea of a time frame, months or years? He didn't give me a time for
:38:36. > :38:40.that. We already have the steps to work programme there. It is just
:38:40. > :38:44.there will be a better version come a much more improved work programme
:38:44. > :38:48.than meets the needs of the new situation. Let's look at the
:38:48. > :38:57.figures on the people who have had appeals heard. It is a small number
:38:57. > :39:04.out of the 1300 or so we have put in an appeal. Of those, 40 for
:39:04. > :39:08.cents were successful. That seems very high. -- a 40 %. I am actually
:39:08. > :39:13.very encouraged by the figures. The first thing is this, the figure of
:39:13. > :39:18.the people who have been disallowed and identified as capable of
:39:18. > :39:23.undertaking work stands at 24 %. But is interesting because it is
:39:23. > :39:29.very different from some of the stories that I have seen and heard.
:39:29. > :39:35.We have had one politician saying that in Strabane 90 % of people
:39:35. > :39:41.were being disallowed. The figure is actually only 24 %. It is that
:39:41. > :39:46.sort of exaggeration, albeit the person said this is anecdotal. Q We
:39:46. > :39:51.have the hard facts. When people put out stories saying things that
:39:51. > :39:58.90 % of people have been disallowed, back creates concern at. The true
:39:58. > :40:03.figure is 24 %. Of those who are turned down, 63 % decide to appeal
:40:03. > :40:07.to it. Some people simply accept it. Of those two at the late 60 % of
:40:07. > :40:12.the appeals are found in favour of the previous decision and 40 %
:40:12. > :40:16.there is a change. Does that not seem very happy to you? What it
:40:16. > :40:21.says to me is that the independent appeals system is working and the
:40:21. > :40:25.main reason why you get changes from the cases that we have seen so
:40:25. > :40:30.far, the main reason seems to be that additional medical evidence is
:40:30. > :40:34.provided by the customer. Given the very long process that people have
:40:34. > :40:38.to go through, surely at some point along that line that medical
:40:38. > :40:45.evidence should have been quite obvious? You are very much
:40:45. > :40:50.dependent on a person bringing forward perhaps Documentation from
:40:50. > :40:53.a surgeon, from a psychiatrist, what ever. But his additional
:40:53. > :40:59.information they can provide that the perhaps have been provided. We
:40:59. > :41:02.have all been aware of incidents as when people have had decisions
:41:02. > :41:09.reversed as additional information has come forward. Looking at the
:41:09. > :41:14.figures, at 9300 is now reasonably good sample for any sort of survey.
:41:14. > :41:19.If we then say take that to the 76,000 people, that means that
:41:19. > :41:23.around 18,000 people are likely to fall into the category of having
:41:23. > :41:29.their incapacity benefit stopped. But puts a sizable number of people
:41:29. > :41:33.on to the unemployed would register. The pits a number of people into a
:41:33. > :41:39.position where they are going to be supported to find employment. Many
:41:39. > :41:45.of those people will need additional help. But would be
:41:45. > :41:50.training, personal skills, personal development, job experience. People
:41:51. > :41:57.will have different needs. The key thing for me is that being in work
:41:58. > :42:03.is a good thing. Let's look at the Disability Living Allowance. 20 %
:42:03. > :42:06.cut in funding is expected. How do you justified the for is that
:42:06. > :42:11.nobody will be worse off, of course there will be people who are
:42:11. > :42:16.currently on it you will not get it all will get less. How do the sums
:42:16. > :42:19.add up? Quite clearly there are good points in welfare reform and
:42:19. > :42:26.there are things that are not so good. There are things that are
:42:26. > :42:31.quite clearly very sound and to which we are fully committed. We
:42:32. > :42:39.have made that very clear. You are not happy with the disability
:42:39. > :42:43.living allowance? Take the credit works well. There are other bits,
:42:43. > :42:46.the changeover from disability living allowance to the personal
:42:46. > :42:53.independent payment and the attempt by government to reduce the
:42:53. > :42:57.increase on spending benefit. That has a negative aspect to it. That
:42:57. > :43:00.is something I would put on the more negative side. There are
:43:00. > :43:06.differences between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United
:43:06. > :43:09.Kingdom. Two examples. Looking at disability living allowance you
:43:09. > :43:14.will find it in Northern Ireland there is a much higher percentage
:43:14. > :43:22.of people who are in that because of mental illness. It is a
:43:22. > :43:27.different demographic profile. What impact that is actually going to
:43:27. > :43:32.have on the delivery of its and that financial working of it, we
:43:32. > :43:37.don't know. He met Iain Duncan Smith last week, is there any good
:43:37. > :43:44.news for people in Northern Ireland? What have you been able to
:43:44. > :43:48.convince him. There have been a number of areas identified for we
:43:48. > :43:53.want flexibilities. We raise them with senior officials and Iain
:43:53. > :43:59.Duncan Smith. On the flexibilities I can be got an encouraging
:44:00. > :44:04.response. Specifically? The issues that go round there in the general
:44:04. > :44:10.world around us around -- around direct payments to landlords,
:44:10. > :44:18.monthly payments, single payments into families. He recognises the
:44:18. > :44:28.challenges we face in Northern Ireland and was very supportive.
:44:28. > :44:34.
:44:35. > :44:37.Paddy Coyle from County Tyrone is one of many benefit claimants who
:44:37. > :44:41.have challenged the new system of assessments. He told Yvette Shapiro
:44:41. > :44:44.about his experience. They award you points for sitting and standing.
:44:44. > :44:48.Paddy Coyle has become a reluctant expert on the benefits system. A
:44:48. > :44:57.spray painter by trade, he has not been able to work since he fell off
:44:57. > :45:07.a ladder last year and shattered his leg. Would you get a lot of
:45:07. > :45:15.
:45:15. > :45:25.pain with it? Yeah, certainly. look at it you would know. How many
:45:25. > :45:25.
:45:25. > :45:27.pins? Nine or 10 pins. Paddy's been claiming Employment and Support
:45:27. > :45:31.Allowance since his accident. He was called for a medical assessment
:45:31. > :45:35.last summer and was shocked at the outcome. I was sent for a board
:45:35. > :45:45.with this cage on and failed the board, they told me I was fit to
:45:45. > :45:50.
:45:50. > :45:55.work. Even with a cage on your leg? With the cage on my leg, yes. A bit
:45:55. > :45:58.of common sense would have been needed. I went over the Jobseekers
:45:58. > :46:01.office, they basically laughed at me - what are we going to do with
:46:01. > :46:06.you? In fact, Paddy was given no points in his assessment, even for
:46:06. > :46:09.mobility and standing up. He appealed the decision and at
:46:09. > :46:19.another hearing in the autumn he was awarded 15 points and his full
:46:19. > :46:24.
:46:24. > :46:27.benefit was reinstated. As the Politicians like Sinn Fein's Mickey
:46:27. > :46:30.Brady say Paddy's experience is typical of the type of cases they
:46:30. > :46:34.are dealing with. He fears that the system is buckling under the strain.
:46:34. > :46:44.In England, there was delays of up to a year for appeals and I think
:46:44. > :46:49.
:46:49. > :46:54.we will see that here. I want to encourage people who feel they have
:46:54. > :46:57.a right to appeal, to appeal. There is a cost to the public purse and
:46:57. > :47:01.that isn't always factored in. Paddy has plenty of unwanted time
:47:01. > :47:04.on his hands at the moment and is anxious to get back to work when
:47:04. > :47:07.his leg heals. He acceps he will have to re-train for another less
:47:07. > :47:15.physical type of employment, but that's a worry in itself. There is
:47:15. > :47:18.no work there. Where they are going to put the people I haven't a clue.
:47:18. > :47:27.And to re-train them in what, to do what, when there's nothing there
:47:27. > :47:34.for them? Let go back to the Incapacity
:47:34. > :47:39.Benefit appeals. Are you surprised that the 40 %? I think it is a
:47:39. > :47:44.little higher than it would be ideally. The stress it puts on the
:47:44. > :47:48.people going through appeals... and the amount of money it cost us in
:47:48. > :47:53.Northern Ireland is a matter for some concern. It is not wildly
:47:53. > :47:57.beyond what I would have expected it to be, but it is a little on the
:47:57. > :48:04.high side. Generally we have implemented the benefits system
:48:04. > :48:07.better than an England. I would like to see his aim to repeat that.
:48:07. > :48:10.Kevin come of the department is at pains to point out that we do
:48:10. > :48:13.things differently and that people on the assessment programme our
:48:13. > :48:19.telephone before they get the first letter, telephone down again before
:48:19. > :48:23.they get another letter. Do you think you're doing a good job?
:48:23. > :48:31.communication end of things is good in the Department of put those
:48:31. > :48:34.steps in place. There is focus on the medical examination. A private
:48:34. > :48:38.healthcare provider provides the medical examination, so there needs
:48:38. > :48:42.to be a focus and getting that right and giving people the
:48:42. > :48:49.opportunity to describe fully their health conditions. The head by
:48:50. > :48:56.sector is inundated with people needing help with forms. Not
:48:56. > :49:00.everybody who fails to make it through with incapacity
:49:00. > :49:05.reassessment or necessarily going to be able to claim jobseeker's.
:49:05. > :49:09.The other big thing coming down the track is welfare reform. For some
:49:09. > :49:15.people who claim to implement and support alliance that could be
:49:15. > :49:19.limited to one year. That is a big issue. The work programme is a big
:49:19. > :49:23.issue. But you have been on incapacity for 10 years it is like
:49:23. > :49:29.the you don't have the skills to going to the job market. Long-term
:49:29. > :49:36.unemployment is not deliberately -- not directly linked to the job
:49:36. > :49:40.cycle. We still have the highest economic inactivity rate in the UK.
:49:40. > :49:48.We need to do a lot more in general to get people back into work and
:49:48. > :49:53.assess better what skills employers require.
:49:53. > :50:01.It is Sport Relief weekend. For more of the political week, here is
:50:01. > :50:10.Gareth Gordon. And we begin with some breaking
:50:10. > :50:14.news. The former Miss prison down macro bad news for smokers and
:50:14. > :50:20.pensioners, good news for the super rich. There are a lot of things
:50:20. > :50:23.which concern me in this Budget. Bertie Ahern is not laughing any
:50:23. > :50:33.more after a bird -- after a tribunal found he lied about his
:50:33. > :50:34.
:50:34. > :50:44.bank accounts. He will be the next Ulster Unionist leader? Could this
:50:44. > :50:45.
:50:45. > :50:50.be a clue? Do they call me leader? Not yet. While some might regard it
:50:50. > :51:00.as boring, I personally regard it as very exciting. In this Olympic
:51:00. > :51:03.
:51:03. > :51:08.year, Sport Relief unearthed a few potential stars. Or maybe not.
:51:08. > :51:13.Just going back briefly to some of the ministers other comments. UN de
:51:13. > :51:19.la he does not seem overly enthusiastic about some of the
:51:19. > :51:22.changes, but have we lost the argument? Will people have to said
:51:22. > :51:27.they are going to get less? welcome that the minister is
:51:27. > :51:34.concerned about that. The advice sector and people reliant on this
:51:34. > :51:39.income would be concerned that the Treasury has suggested there will
:51:39. > :51:43.be a 20 % cut. We would be concerned that we would go to the
:51:43. > :51:48.same problems that we have gone through with Incapacity Benefit
:51:48. > :51:51.moving to the E S A. We need to make sure that people are supported
:51:51. > :51:57.through the process and the people who are entitled to the benefit get